Glittery Curiosity

2/12/21 - The NYT's Caity Weaver joins us to discuss her love of Santa Fe, television, pronouncing words correctly, and how her insatiable curiosity compels her to find out how glitter is made. Plus, in her many celebrity profiles: who tried to pick up the check, who was beautiful in person, and who smells amazing.

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Executive Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll

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TRANSCRIPT: GLITTERY CURIOSITY

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.

Aminatou: Hey hey how's it going

Ann: Um you sound a lot more cheerful than i feel about about life right now, um or what was that or is that just like working working up to it, working up to the show today

Aminatou: Oh yeah that's definitely my fake chair so enjoy it.


Ann: [laughs] Oh man. There's gotta be something to be cheerful about today though come on, like for real, authentic cheer?


Aminatou: Like real pass, you tell me why you're cheerful about.

Ann: I mean I had a good slice a coffee cake this morning that's pretty that's like right up there for me right now

Aminatou: Iconic iconic, I love that. Um I don't even know what's in coffee cake. Does it just taste like coffee, is that what coffee cake is about?

Ann: Here's the secret to coffee cake, it's just cake but like for a long time I think I thought it like had coffee in it or something and that is not true it is just a cake that someone upended the name coffee to to allow you to eat it in the morning. It's just breakfast cake it should be called breakfast cake.

Aminatou: Wow what a what a scam what a scam. I'm glad I asked that because I didn't know and perfect segue into what we're doing today. We are talking to [laughs] we are talking to the most curious person i know Caity Weaver and she is 100 percent the kind of friend who would say what's in coffee cake and then write like 10,000 words about it

Ann: About how it is actually such a scam and we should just be calling it breakfast cake


[theme song]


Aminatou: Yes she would absolutely get to the bottom of the coffee cake scam. She would probably like to take down some like white collar crime and you know like in the middle of doing that it was you know like it would be a real caper [laughter] Caity is one of my favorite writers she is currently writing at the New York Times our local paper before that she wrote at GQ and Gawker and next to Caity aspires to be at the Blue Ivy Carter presidential library and I have full faith that she will be working there soon. I called Caity up to like ask her questions about things that i've always wondered about classic phone a friend today


Ann: I love this and also I have to say Caity is one of your friends who i have never met in person so I am just going to be like peering through the window on this one so excited because I also love her work.

Aminatou: In the post pandemic we are going to do like a meeting of all of the friends you know like a swap of like okay here's everyone here's everyone that you here's everyone who you have not met who is very important to me and Caity is it definitely at the top of that list

Ann: I love that I can't wait to listen

[interview begins]

Aminatou: Hi Caity thanks for coming onto Call Your Girlfriend!


Caity: Thank you for having me!


Aminatou: I miss you, where are you?


Caity: I'm lying on the floor in Santa Fe, New Mexico.


Aminatou: How is Santa Fe? Are you loving it?


Caity: I really am I kind of never want to come back to New York. It's so much better out here, everything is better, it's pretty good. We had a little bit of snow today um and when I when I tell my friends that who don't live in Santa Fe, which is all my friends because I don't know anyone here they didn't know that Santa Fe got snow. Everything is just perfect, I love it.

Aminatou: Yeah I mean I do like Santa Fe. I don't like that far away from me those two things are very different thoughts


Caity: Well I think I'm also having kind of an easy time of it because I know right now that no one can be hanging out really without me. So I don't have fomo because I know that everyone is just trapped wherever they are, which is making it a little bit easier.

Aminatou: What if ___ said that like the pandemic is over everywhere except for Santa Fe and then you're stuck there for the next year?


Caity: Honestly I think I would still want to be here. [laughter]

Aminatou: All I know about Santa Fe is, it's like whenever I go there for weddings for some reason I have been to so many weddings there, but I genuinely love 10,000 Waves the spa that's like a like a top 20 like spa experience for me and I'm dying to go back.


Caity: You actually gave me an I don’t know if you remember this some like spray that I use it in New York in the shower. I don't know its actual purpose, but it just makes it smell like 10,000 Waves. So I have been bringing 10,000 waves to me even when I wasn't here. But now that I'm here, it's so close. I'm not going there. But even just knowing it's nearby is nice. And actually speaking of weddings, I don't know if you remember this, but the whole reason I am out here is that Taylor and I came out to planning our wedding that was supposed to be, we were supposed to be here for a truly like five days, maybe. And we've been here ever since. So we got out here, like end of February, first week of March, with enough clothes to last us a few days. And just that's how long we've been out here.

Aminatou: Ah man, like when you're not working, what are your days look like?


Caity: Oh my gosh, well, I mean, everything is basically the same days we go for a short drive. We watch a lot of TV together. He has been a real trooper. He's zoomed through several seasons of Real Housewives of New York with me, I was, I was rewatching. And he'd never seen them. We both just mainlined Below Deck. And Below Deck Med, several seasons, several several seasons kind of started to get a little crazy at one point because it was multiple episodes a day, every day for like months straight. [laughs] It's just a perfect show. So I guess my days when I'm not working basically look like I'm on a yacht with like six other people. And we're trying to make it work. And the guests are driving us crazy. And this chef is a big problem that you know, that's my life out here.

Aminatou: Man, I was talking about me watching so much television, concentrating on new shows. I'm just rewatching stuff. And he said that it is 100% like a self soothing mechanism. You're just like, yeah, there's not going to be any surprises in this that I know. And I was like, wow, anxiety response. I love that.

Caity: Oh, wow. I feel like I've always watched a lot of TV. But maybe I've just always really needed to be self soothing. I mean, the thing is, I'm such a couch potato that this is to not be able to go anywhere. in some ways it's frustrating, I'm sorry, I haven't been able to see my parents, but if I had to be doing something, watching TV is what I would want to have to be doing.

Aminatou: Who are you rooting for on Drag Race and what else? Are you watching?

Caity: Let's see. So I I'm kind of bopping around all different seasons, I just finished season 12 thinking I was watching 13 the current season and then I realized I wasn't. So now I'm back on 13. [laughs] And they have just divided the Queens into two different groups. And they're kind of calling them like the winner's circle and the Porkchop group. And right now, I really cannot believe and I have to think the producers didn't anticipate how much better the ones in one group were going to be overall, like the ones in the winner's circle, I feel like they could all be the winner already. They're amazing. And the ones in the pork chop circle. I don't know if it's just a couple of bringing down the average. But I feel like they got pork chopped for a reason. The other thing I've noticed is just like the level of sort of makeup and performance over the seasons has just blown me away when I bought back and forth between the more current season and an older one. Um I watched the first season and really liked it and then I just sort of fell off and didn't watch it regularly. And now I'm diving back in. It started with season five which a friend recommended and it's it's entertaining but just like these queens would be cut I think first episode on on a current season. One thing that another friend ]who's recently started binge watching draggers pointing out to me he's actually watching them in order so he started with I guess one and is now up to like six.

Aminatou: I love a completist.


Caity: Yes, absolutely. He said I think it's around season five that everyone starts describing things as sickening, which they hadn't been doing before. So he's gonna keep me updated with like, linguistic progress as the seasons go on.


Aminatou: I mean, obviously everyone in today's you know, like current seasons has the hindsight of 12 seasons behind them. Right so you know, I I have so much more respect for the early queens who were really thrown into the wild wild west of reality TV before anyone knew what it could be. It's like today, it honestly you see this so much across all reality TV where you're like everyone is so rehearsed now. They know exactly what they want and I don't like the manipulation of it. I was like, This is not anything you're not struggling like Nini Leakes was struggling season 1 Atlanta housewives. You are now a cunning participant of this television show and I don't like it


Caity: [laughter] But I feel like even with the benefit of hindsight of like 12 seasons, I still wouldn't be, I would still be at season one level at most. Like, I don't understand how people can see all that, and learn from that and kind of specifically on Drag Race and like this make themselves into these super competitors, because I know that I would have plateaued like, well below that, even if I have watched every season multiple times.

Aminatou: If you had to be on a reality TV show, your survival depended on it. Which one would you be cast on?

Caity: So I have to be a cast member? I can't be like, you know, a guest on below deck, or you can't be the host.

Aminatou: You can't be a friend, you be like main, you have to be holding a peach, like, which is show would you be?


Caity: Oh, my God. Well, I think everyone goes on The Real Housewives and thinks like, I am going to, like the audience will relate to me, I actually understand how to not look bad on the show. Everyone goes in thinking that and then they all look bad. Like housewives is the wrong answer. Oh, actually, I think we talked about this, I would love to see if I could somehow scam my way onto like, either Project Runway or Great British Bake Off one of those shows and just not get eliminated first. I think I may be put, even though I'm not a great baker, or sewer because I think there will be someone who is really good, who will try to do too much. And they will really fail spectacularly. And I think I would probably be bottom two, but maybe not so bad that I would go the first episode, that would be my goal would be to last.


Aminatou: Wow, I'm impressed. I'm impressed. She has a plan. [laughter] Katie, you are probably I like I feel actually very confident saying this. You are the most like curious person I know. Like, really a curious person I know.

Caity: wow...wow


Aminatou: Which frightens me and amazes me at the same time, but it is genuinely like one of the things I enjoy the most about you like you are, you never take any fact for granted. You’re always like, eh well let's look into that. And I and I wonder like, did you just like grow up being a kid who was like, you always needed to know everything about everything.


Caity: Oh my gosh, that's such a nice compliment. Thank you. Um, I feel like, as you're describing that, I was thinking, why am I curious? Maybe it's because I'm so paranoid about being wrong. So I think I grew up like always wanting to be the best and do a really good job. So maybe I just got used to like, needing to be absolutely certain of things. And I will also say, I am really able to convince myself that I'm right about things like way too easily, frighteningly easily. So it's just best for me to, to really know that I am right. Because I understand that even if I have a fact wrong, I will always believe that it's right. Uh and that is scary and potentially embarrassing or harmful, my life.


Aminatou: But you're like the poster child for um you know in like college is like we're looking for a well rounded student, I consider you to be someone who is very well rounded interest in that. You know, it's like you can talk about reality TV for all you want. But also you can write like an amazing profile about glitter or you will grovel across the United States and Amtrak and write about it. But also, you know, when I send you a text message and say like, did you notice you will correct me and like five? You know about anything. [laughter] Case in point. The other day, I texted you and said, look at this insane factoid I just learned and you were like, I mean, I do actually know the meaning of the word factoid, it doesn't mean what you think it does. And that sent me into a tailspin for hours.


Caity: God I hate that anecdote about myself. I will say I only did it because we are friends. And it's something that I would want to be told if I say the word wrong, but like, I don't want to be the person who just corrects people out of pocket.


Aminatou: I don't mean it in a like I it's funny that you're taking it as a you know, I'm sure that like for you, there's always like, oh, like, do I want to correct this person, but I find it exceedingly charming actually. And beyond like it being charming, I just think that there is such a value in like being precise. And especially in being precise with your language, you know, and being precise with your knowledge.


Caity: mmhmm…


Aminatou: And I love that, you know, that's something that I think about so much in an academic setting, but actually, like, within the confines of just any kind of human relationship. It's also just beautiful. So this is me telling you, I appreciate it because you also do it in the most hilarious and kind way you're not like one of those like, well actually, the word factoiid comes from the German word, blah, blah, blah, like this is not what's happening here. But I just I love it because I love it's it's such a good showcase of how your brain is and I'm in love with your brain


Caity: Oh that's so sweet thank you Amina! So and my fiance and I have had a debate about this if I use a word either like i use the word incorrectly or really if I pronounced the word incorrectly I absolutely want to know because I want to know how to say that word. I'm embarrassed at the thought of saying it the wrong way. Um Taylor my my sweet boy, he reads aloud and speaks really really fast and so sometimes I do catch like oh you know he's that's not how you say that word and I you know me I love to jump in and say like so you know but he argues I actually like argue that if you are mispronouncing a word it makes you look smart because it shows that you've only seen that word written and like you're trying to use a new word to you, so it's like it shows you're a reader basically and not afraid to expand your vocabulary.


Aminatou: I am really glad that Taylor's mom told him that, because that is a very sweet story.

[laughter]

Caity: I have to say I was kind of sold on it. I was like yeah you know what fair enough but it didn't change the fact that I still want to be corrected.


Aminatou: Well here's my perspective, that is slightly different is that and i think i've shared the story on the podcast before so people are probably sick of hearing me say it and Ann has definitely heard me say it a million times. One of my biggest frustrations when I was learning english and even now is that I find that American english speakers are are very shy about correcting you because I guess in American culture there is something embarrassing about it right like you're pointing out a failure. I will say that in French people correct you all the time and it is like really obnoxious and other people consider it rude but it's because you're like there's a norm. The way to do it though that I really appreciate that the least obnoxious French way to correct someone when someone says a word wrong or if you're speaking and you use the wrong tense or you you know like you get the expression wrong is instead of looking at you like your willdabeast the person just repeat what you said and then incorporates it in the speech. You know?

Caity: Yeah, yeah


Aminatou: There's a different way of saying that, so like I remember for example my well this is a separate story but my english teacher in high school this is AP english this is like literally a story how you know that like adults are all idiots is we were reading out loud something and I said the word awry and she was like no it's ari and she was so mad and I was like why are you teaching AP english ma'am like you have heard wrong, but anyway um what I you know had she been right or had the tables been turned and you know like I had said ari like this situation is gone alright all she knew was say with a you're right the situation has gone awry and then move on in her speech like you just say the word so the other person clocks it right and then you know and then like if if you the normal interaction will be like, oh is that how you say that how is that how you pronounce that and then you can have a conversation about it but don't think that there's anything wrong with with correcting people. I think that it matters how you deliver it but I also think that people are really I noticed this a lot more here and I think it's just a cultural difference that people get really embarrassed you know when they get a word wrong I get words wrong all the time but I also have the hindsight of in learning a new language. I know that I got words wrong all the time so I don't internalize that as a personal failure, you know. I'm just sorry, I don't know how to say that word, it's not the end of the-- like a, like a word I didn't know how to say recently was now I can't even pronounce it anymore that like butterfly cocoon thing, chrysalis chrysalis, however you say it.

Caity: I think its chrysalis but I will be looking it up after this conversation.

Aminatou: Right, I believe my friend Jenny corrected me, it's chrysalis I believe or she she didn't correct me she said it the correct way and I was like oh is that how you say that and I believe it happened on this podcast even but you know I just I think that like being embarrassed that you cannot say a word is such a privilege and also just to me is like are you serious like there are so many other things to be embarrassed about in your life and uh--

Caity: [laughter] You're talking about me specifically


Aminatou: No I'm saying to like like people who internalize that criticism. That's something that I let roll off my back really quickly because I do think that there's something correct about Taylor's point of view is that it does show that you yeah people who read and don't say words out loud like usually you don't want to say the word. Like the first time I said the word segue out loud I was shocked that it was the same segway that I was reading in a book I was like that's wild. Even though I knew what it means, but I like less the shaming of people for not knowing how to pronounce things, but also less feeling ashamed because you don’t know.


Caity: I will say the best feeling and I can even think of a word that this happened to me on is when I realized that I've been saying a word wrong, because I hear someone say it right. They haven't yet heard me say it wrong. So it’s like oh my god, you don't realize you just get away the whole game. [laughter] Friend of mine, said the word detritus, which I have worse assumed with detritus. And from that day, I have never said it correctly, even though I had not. Now it's a word I use all the time to go out of my way to say it, because I know how it's pronounced. But it wasn't even the freaky thing is it wasn't even a word I wondered about, like, maybe I wonder how to say this. Like, I know how to say this. And I was simply wrong. What you were saying about the way that French people correct people, which I really love reminds me, a British friend told me once said if you're like at a table with British people, and you want something like let's say, You and I are sitting at a table, and I want more mashed potatoes, what I would say is not you pass the mashed potatoes, I would ask you, would you like some more mashed potatoes? And then that's supposed to be your cue to either say yes or no, but they often come back to me, which truly like would not have occurred to me and I love that idea.


Aminatou: It's all very cultural theater, you know, everyone is just like, there's just all these subtle cultural norms that you have to be on top of. And sometimes I like them. And other times I don't. But I guess like, what, the thing that it always makes me think of is that norms change, you know, and you can be in charge of setting your own norm. Because all like rules of politeness are just I find them very oppressive, even when they're really useful. I was like, there's not one way to be in the world. And we should let people just, you should ask for what you want. And you should also, you know, like, state your needs. Be a useful person in the world.


Caity: Well to your point, I mean, if someone wanted me to pass the mash potatoes, and asked if I wanted mashed potatoes, I would be like, Oh no, thank you and just keep talking. I definitely would not pick up on that. [laughter]


Aminatou: But I find that very progressive. It's like why wouldn't you just say that you want them and you know what I mean [laughter] But again, they're just like, every culture has these weird things like that, but you're supposed to do and it really, it really drives me crazy. Like when, when Ann and I were writing our book, and we were reading about Deborah Tannen, this woman who is a she's a linguist, she's a linguist. And she writes a lot about this, you know, the the subtleties in the ways that women speak to each other. One example that she used, is, you know, like, women will always say like, huh aren't you cold? Instead of saying, Can you turn the air conditioner off? Like, who says that? When I'm cold, I tell people, I'm cold. Like, this is so weird, but I do, but I do recognize that in wanting to be polite, there are a ton of other ways that we make it like make specifically very indirect requests. And my take is always like, just say the thing that you want, because this is weird, not everyone is picking up on this.

Caity: Well, I read a thing recently, a book that I read for, for work for a story that I'm working on, because someone wrote a line that was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna misquote it, but it was basically requests build intimacy. So it's actually good to just ask people for things directly, because that kind of starts like a back and forth action. Rather than sort of like dancing around it and coming in from bunch of weird ways. If someone feels like I have given you something that you wanted, I have helped you, that just you know, fosters a connection.


Aminatou: Like I love that is can they teach that at school, please?


[laughter]


Caity: And I have said, Actually, I bought into the idea. A year ago or so, a few years ago, my new year's resolution was just ask people for more things, which I had forgotten about until we started just now but I'm just gonna ask for more and see if people will do things and the answer was yes. And I remember the first day I couldn't practice I asked a man like sitting in another round an airplane my bag down for me and and he just like yess, was like oh yeah absolutely. And normally, I would have just struggled with it myself. I was no its actually fine to ask people. How nice.


Aminatou: You never asked me. I don't like this.

Caity: Oh, I asked you for things all the time.


Aminatou: I literally can't think of one thing.


Caity: [laughter] Oh, okay, I want anything you're offering. I would like it and I have it.


Aminatou: Okay, I'll give you everything I have Caity. [laughter]

Caity: I probably would honestly take it. That's the sad thing.

[music]

[ad]

Aminatou: I want to ask about your ideas again, because you are you're obviously like a very, very good reporter, you are a very good writer. But before you do all of those things like where do your ideas live? Do you have an ideas like journal? Do you like jot things down in a note? Do you like, like, how do you? How do you know that something that you're thinking about is like worth pursuing?

Caity: Oh, my gosh, I feel like I'm basically at that at the level like picking stories I kind of never know. And I'm, I'm one of those people who is always sort of scrambling for stories and trying to come up with things I get my ideas, just sort of from talking to editors, a lot of times it'll be me like, sending them a bunch of links and be like, oh my God, isn't this funny. And finally, they're like, you actually need to now write about this, because you've talked, you've given me a monologue about it for 20 minutes just wasting time.


[laughter]

Caity: Once I have the idea, I do try to stick to the sort of premise that if I don't know something, or if I'm curious about something, and other people also won't know it and will, you know, be at least somewhat curious about it, I try not to include information in my stories, because I feel like I have to only if it's something that I really think is interesting or didn't understand or was wondering about, I feel like the glitter story I wrote for the times is a pretty good example of this, because that was just me. My editor had asked me to look into another story. And I wasn't really finding stuff. And I basically ended up on a YouTube video of like CDs being crushed and I was like, Oh that looks like glitter. And then I realized I didn't know how glitter was made and that was more interesting to me than the original idea I had been looking up. So I was like, Can I just figure out how glitter is made? And she was like, Yeah okay. And then I I just set off on that quest. And it ended up being a lot more complicated and secretive than I thought it would be. But once I found people who did know how to make glitter, you know, it's kind of like that, that scene in My Cousin Vinny. It's like, explain it to me like I'm a five year old. I really do ask people to do that. I need people to do that. Because I feel like I don't have a very strong science background. So if if a story tiptoes into scientific territory or engineering territory at all, it's really like, okay back it up. How do we make electricity? [laughter] I asked someone that at a party when they were able. I mean it to me for a while I knew, but I couldn't tell you now I could kind of I could tell you a version because I'm able to convince myself that would like probably sound pretty much right but it would be absolutely wrong.


Aminatou: I have never once thought to myself, how is glitter made or like looked at a thing that I use? Like I was like, I don't know how my watch is made. I don't know how my phone is made. I don't even know how my body like stands up every day. So I'm glad that someone is investigating all of this for me.


Caity: But you know where that comes from, my my papa my grandfather used to love to say in any room we're in, point to anything in this room and the guy who invented it is a millionaire. [laughter] He was probably right.


Aminatou: [laughter] Is that why I’m not a millionaire because I don’t ask that question.


Caity: So now I'm just I'm constantly looking around rooms and being like, Oh my God, why didn't I think to like make screws? Or Oh, why didn't I come up with the idea for denim, I could be a millionaire.

Aminatou: Oh my gosh, or the person who made that little table sand that they put in the pizza boxes so the box doesn't crush.

Caity: I'm sure I had actually looked up on the person who invented it. I can't remember off the top of my head. But--


Aminatou: I have looked that up. Because Domino's Pizza was like when I used to work in digital PR a million years ago. They were like one of my very first clients at the place that I worked out. So I unfortunately know a little too much about that. But I can't tell you anything about it.

Caity: Oh was it was it Domino's that came up with it? I actually read the memoir of the Domino's founder.


Aminatou: Oh, it's disputed, like Domino's says they definitely came up with it. But some you know, like other people are like, like, eh did you come up with it? Or did you just make it popular? You know?

Caity: Yeah, yeah.

Aminatou: So I love I love people who fight about inventions. I just can't be bothered to invent.


Caity: I would love to invent, I have no idea how to do it. I can't think of anything we need. I love to complain. But I don't ever take steps to fix it. I just like to put the complaints out there into the air.


Aminatou: If you had to like have a business, your survival depended on being like having a startup and the startup had to be like a very ubiquitous one so kind of how like every like you go to the airport and everyone has an Away suitcase you know or or you're walking around New York in Brooklyn you're walking around Brooklyn and everyone is wearing Bloodstones or whatever what would be one thing that you're like this is what I would do?

Caity: Like I literally if I knew the answer to this question I would already be doing it and like we wouldn't even be talking because i wouldn't be too rich. If I had one idea I would have done it. [laughter] what can I even like I don't, I don't have any useful ideas I can't think of anything I could make that someone else would want a friend oh well you know what?


Aminatou: What?

Caity: This isn't my idea and I think you're probably a lot of reasons why they don't do this but one one problem that I would love to have fixed is I think that cans of coke should be about 50% bigger [laughter] or only have the small cans but make them keeper as small cans like two or three of them is the right amount of soda they actually work out paying more per can than like a normal size and the normal size can is not quite enough to get me through a meal. I would like another like 30 to 50% more soda, without having to open a brand new can and then waste half that can. So I guess, I would be the person who has exactly replicated the taste of diet coke and then created a can that is a little bit larger to clean it.


Aminatou: I love it. Another interest of yours I mean we've kind of touched on it but not really is you really like linguistics Caity. What's up with that? Was that like a college major thing for you? Like what’s the deal?


Caity: That was a college major. Well the reason I got interested in it is I went to a really weird small like it was a private school, but to call it that sounds a lot fancier, and it was a really small, like little community school from preschool through eighth grade and it's the kind of school it wasn't part of like a network. It's not a name anyone would know. It had 100 kids in it and it was basically just run by these sisters who like felt like they could run a good school and they could. It was very old fashioned in a lot of ways but I got a really good foundation of things and they had a great great great eccentric French teacher there who I loved and Madame Schaefer. And she would always when she was teaching us words she loved to show us the connections between words and like so yeah so this one teacher would just like really made words seem sort of like fun puzzles that were out there in the open for anyone who cared to explore them. And then eventually I found out that like that was kind of a thing called or related to a thing called linguistics and so when I applied to college I also thought I think english would have been the most natural major for me but I thought that there were going to be a lot of english majors so maybe it would be good to number one like show interest in a slightly different subject, and then also I would be not competing against your people if I were not an english major if I were a linguistics major say that's what I majored in. And a lot of it I really liked I learned a ton of great fun party facts. A lot of it was quite hard and I would say of the it's such a small major at my school I think there were maybe definitely fewer than 10 of us the year I graduated. But like I was obviously the worst out of our group of six people or however many we were. I was like the worst at linguistics and I wasn't bad I just was they were like making up languages on the weekends and stuff and they understood computer science which I did not. But yeah, I really I really liked a lot of it and it also taught me a lot of experience like reading kind of dense scientific papers for some of the classes which I think is actually proved useful in my career surprisingly. Uh yeah, I've just always been really interested in it. I love learning about words and where they come from and how they relate to other words I love hearing people speak other languages and trying to parse out you know if I'm watching something with captions and a language I don't know I love trying to learn words just from that.


Aminatou: Do you do it whenever you're watching our Danish TV show we’re obsessed with Borgen?


Caity: [laughter] Yes

Aminatou: I'm pronouncing that wrong but I'm gonna learn how to say that the correct way. I do that all the time and I cannot figure out which word is which except for when they say spin doctor which is what they call publicists and I love that word.

Caity: Yess really really good. I actually I got a call I was able to kind of glean a couple words from that well what's the other one you told me that so crazy it's like apple juice means orange juice or something?

Aminatou: Appleseed is orange juice but it's also what they say in Denmark for cheese like whenever you're like smiling in front of like for a photo.

Caity: Oh I love stuff like that, I think sort of what I like about languages and also I really, for whatever reason, really like just things that show like our humanity across cultures. So I love when like, everyone has a different word for that. I really like cultural constance. I find something very like charming. Knowing that like, oh, and people over here in this place that I've never heard of they do this too. It's sort of, you know, it's like heartening,

Aminatou: I know I sound like a broken record, Caity. But I love this because you just really embody a quality that I think everyone should have. It's one generally like being curious, but also knowing where to find information. Because this is the stumbling block of everybody who drives me up the wall on the internet's for example you know. They are just saying how, like, they just like, say wrong things, or they do wrong things. And no one, no one goes to, like, find the thing that you were supposed to find to make it right. And I just like, really appreciate that you are, you know, you're like, I gotta like, find how to know a thing that I don't know about. So Caity, you have written a lot of celebrity profiles.

Caity: Yes.

Aminatou: They are delightful to read. The Justin Bieber one is, it's like in my top 10 of like anything I've ever read ever about. I love it, it is hard to make something out of nothing. And I my nightmare would be to write a celebrity profile. Because I'm just like, these people don't really give you a lot to say they're promoting a thing, or whatever. So I always appreciate that you have like a different entry into writing about that. But I guess like, I wonder, like, what has surprised you the most about doing that kind of writing?

Aminatou: Let me think, surprise-- well, one thing, I'm always confused by the fact that number one that these people are talking to me I know, on some level, they kind of are obligated to if they have to promote something, I just think I would be afraid to do it. Because there's so there's so much room for error on the part of the person being interviewed. I'm really confused by the fact they, if you're already rich, that you keep doing things. I talked to Jeff Bridges, and he has been acting for so long. He's been in so many things. He clearly has enough money. And it's just like, I don't understand why you're doing this or like The Rock. I remember when I was like, why are you doing this you have done enough? I admit, if I made what I considered enough money, which I think would be a lot less than these people. I would definitely stop. So I'm not, I guess I'm sort of surprised they keep doing it. I'm mainly confused. One thing I always noticed, and I'm pleasantly surprised by is when someone is I'm interviewing them, like over a meal. If they offer to pick up the check. Most people don't, which is fine, because they shouldn't it's always like a place we'll pay for it. But I remember, I think the first celebrity whoever did that was Kim Kardashian. And I have to like really insist that I would pay for it. Or that you know GQ would pay for it, Conde Nast would pay for it kinda and so pay for it. I'm pretty sure Maya Rudolph offered. But but most people don't.

Aminatou: Wow.

Caity: Yeah, which is again, it's fine. Because it's sort of like, well, we could say that it's maybe it's bad that they're offering because it's like they should, they presumably know on some level that like, I'm not actually paying for this. They don't need to pay for it.

Aminatou: They know, they're in your head.

Caity: Right, exactly. Yeah, but then it's also like, well why doesn't everyone offer? If you know, it’s just to look good.

Aminatou: I have so many things to respond to that one I feel about celebrities continuing to work the same way that I feel about writers who are stilll on Twitter, you know? I'm just like, why you already accomplished the thing that you came here to accomplish? But I think that what you know, like with actors, one, obviously, the, the good take is that some people really genuinely like their job. And so they will keep doing their jobs. You know, but at the same time, I'm just like, for a lot of those people, it's their medium. Like, if they're not acting, how do they stay relevant in public life, and I don't know that they know how to do that. So they have to keep acting. But some people that really like boggles me, especially the older the actor is, I'm always like you’re 79, like working, you know, like, where is retirement? And obviously, the answer is yes some people really enjoy their work. And I should really honor that. But I'm like you I was like, there's an amount of money that when I get it, you will never hear another word from me ever again.

Caity: Absolutely.

Aminatou: Like I'm retiring from all activities.

Caity: Like Maggie Smith, how much fun could you really be having? Is this really the absolute most fun activity for you to be participating in is making a Downton Abbey movie. So so yeah, so that's I'm always I feel like I'm always asking famous people the same question which is like, why why are you doing, why do you do this?

Aminatou: Like did someone smell really good? Was someone like so much nicer than you thought? Like so much more beautiful even in person than on?

Caity: Okay. Yes, these are great questions. So, beautiful Cardi B in person with no or very little makeup couldn't believe how pretty and like, such delicate like she looked like a tiny ballerina doll to me, like in a music box. Really pretty face. Smelled good? Also, yes. Sarah Paulson, I did a very short interview with her for GQ. I interviewed a bunch of people from the cast of the OJ show. And she smells really good. I think I probably asked her what she was wearing. She told me but then, like, months later, I was in New York, and I was waiting for the subway. And all of a sudden, I smelled something really good. And I was like, where have I smelled that before? Oh it smells like Sarah Paulson and I looked up and it was her.

Aminatou: [laughter]

Caity: And that’s also like the only celebrity I’ve ever seen in New York. I didn’t say anything, I would never go up to a celebrity. I always remember that she smelled really good. I’m always really touched if it’s a phone interview and the celebrity just calls you directly. I think I understand why they wouldn’t want to, but I think it’s a smart move, because like we got to go through the publicist and it like takes, it just starts it off on an annoying note. And like I’m never going to call you back or call me from your publicist’s phone even, it doesn’t have to be your phone. But I’m often surprised by like kind of the lower level of celebrity that goes through their publicist. People who will just talk to you directly, John Travolta called me himself. He was like, Caity, it’s JT.

Aminatou: [laughter] Did you tell him that that’s Justin Timberlake?

Caity: No, I didn’t tell John that, I didn’t tell JT that. And actually god while I was talking to him that was like one of my worst interview experiences because I used to live in an apartment in New York that was like ground floor, first buzzer. So anyone who needed to get in would buzz my apartment. And someone was going to another apartment and just laying on my buzzer and like would not stop. And I had to be like, John I’m so sorry I have to buzz in a stranger, I don’t care if they’re here to kill everyone. So he called directly, I’m pretty sure The Rock, uh yeah The Rock made himself like just available for, to like pick-up questions or if I needed to get in touch with him. He was good.

Aminatou: I mean he’s like running for president, obviously so. I know the minute he announces you’re going to be his spin doctor. So yeah, that’s how that’s going to work.

Caity: [laughter] From what I’ve learned off Borgen and just my innate self confidence, I do believe get him into the white house. [laughter] I think I could get anyone elected in any country. Because I’ve watched every season of Borgen.

Aminatou: I mean, you could definitely get him elected in Denmark. Good luck. [laughter]

Caity: For Taylor’s birthday, I made him a Danish campaign poster, like he was running, like he was running in the fake TV election we watched. [laughter]

Aminatou: Everyone should watch Borgen. This is my, this is, we’re doing this whole episode to convince everyone to watch it on Netflix. It’s so good. Please do yourself the pleasure.

Caity: It really is.

Aminatou: Do yourself the pleasure. Okay Caity, last question from me, even though I could talk to you for an hour more and hours and hours more. When you were growing up and you were like when I grow up maybe I’ll be a writer or I’ll do all these things like blah blah blah. Like all these aspirations you had for yourself…

Caity: mmhmm

Aminatou: Today, in the pandemic, with everything nuts that’s going, do you think that like baby Caity would be very much ike, yeah this is a really good life for me, this is the life I built for myself?

Caity: Oh my gosh, she would be thrilled. When I was young, I was like positive I was going to be on SNL and also already stressed about it. I was like, oh my god this job is really hard, I’m having to come up with sketches all the time, and like the hours are crazy. So I I was already like ready to quit the job at SNL that I didn’t have. So the fact that I have created a life, and also the pandemic has created a life for me, where I just spend like all weekend watching TV and I am going to be marrying someone who is always happy to get pizza, like that would be perfect for me. I actually when I was really little used to say, that I was going to marry a pizza man, like a pizza delivery man and Taylor did that job one summer, so my dream has come true.

Aminatou: [laughter] Well Caity, I miss you and I cannot wait till I see you next, hopefully at 10,000 Waves or maybe at a pizzeria.


Caity: Oh god, Amina, they won’t tell you this but Santa Fe has better pizza than New York City.

Aminatou: I’m hanging up on you, I am hanging up on you. You are going to get both of us canceled. I will comment on anything on the internet except for pizza, [laughter] because it just never ends well. So I have nothing to say about your pizza commentary.

Caity: Come to Santa Fe, try the pizza!

[interview ends]

Aminatou: Man, I love that that she gave so many juicy details about the celebrity interviews that she does. Because I almost never want to ask because I feel like it’s feels rude to ask, but I really love it when the friends who interview celebrities like volunteer that stuff.

Ann: This is also the secret of to why we love to do phone-a-friends which is you get your friends the ask the kinds of questions that might seem weird of like of someone who you’re just like casually friends with but in a semi-professional setting you can be like, wait no tell me actually how you do that.

Aminatou: True story. Caity Weave is amazing. Follow her on twitter, her tweets are actually very good. And I, as someone who hates twitter, that is the highest praise I can give. Her tweets are very good, her articles are very good. Follow her on all platforms. Knock yourself out. We will also include a list of like her very best things that she’s written. If you have not read her big feature on glitter, you are playing yourself and you should do that. And all the celebrity profiles are worth it.

Ann: See you on the internet and in Caity Weaver’s archive.


Aminatou: See you in Santa Fe one day!


[outro music]

Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.? Caity: Let's see. So I I'm kind of bopping around all different seasons, I just finished season 12 thinking I was watching 13 the current season and then I realized I wasn't. So now I'm back on 13. [laughs] And they have just divided the Queens into two different groups. And they're kind of calling them like the winner's circle and the Porkchop group. And right now, I really cannot believe and I have to think the producers didn't anticipate how much better the ones in one group were going to be overall, like the ones in the winner's circle, I feel like they could all be the winner already. They're amazing. And the ones in the pork chop circle. I don't know if it's just a couple of bringing down the average. But I feel like they got pork chopped for a reason. The other thing I've noticed is just like the level of sort of makeup and performance over the seasons has just blown me away when I bought back and forth between the more current season and an older one. Um I watched the first season and really liked it and then I just sort of fell off and didn't watch it regularly. And now I'm diving back in. It started with season five which a friend recommended and it's it's entertaining but just like these queens would be cut I think first episode on on a current season. One thing that another friend ]who's recently started binge watching draggers pointing out to me he's actually watching them in order so he started with I guess one and is now up to like six. Aminatou: I love a completist. Caity: Yes, absolutely. He said I think it's around season five that everyone starts describing things as sickening, which they hadn't been doing before. So he's gonna keep me updated with like, linguistic progress as the seasons go on. Aminatou: I mean, obviously everyone in today's you know, like current seasons has the hindsight of 12 seasons behind them. Right so you know, I I have so much more respect for the early queens who were really thrown into the wild wild west of reality TV before anyone knew what it could be. It's like today, it honestly you see this so much across all reality TV where you're like everyone is so rehearsed now. They know exactly what they want and I don't like the manipulation of it. I was like, This is not anything you're not struggling like Nini Leakes was struggling season 1 Atlanta housewives. You are now a cunning participant of this television show and I don't like it Caity: [laughter] But I feel like even with the benefit of hindsight of like 12 seasons, I still wouldn't be, I would still be at season one level at most. Like, I don't understand how people can see all that, and learn from that and kind of specifically on Drag Race and like this make themselves into these super competitors, because I know that I would have plateaued like, well below that, even if I have watched every season multiple times. Aminatou: If you had to be on a reality TV show, your survival depended on it. Which one would you be cast on? Caity: So I have to be a cast member? I can't be like, you know, a guest on below deck, or you can't be the host. Aminatou: You can't be a friend, you be like main, you have to be holding a peach, like, which is show would you be? Caity: Oh, my God. Well, I think everyone goes on The Real Housewives and thinks like, I am going to, like the audience will relate to me, I actually understand how to not look bad on the show. Everyone goes in thinking that and then they all look bad. Like housewives is the wrong answer. Oh, actually, I think we talked about this, I would love to see if I could somehow scam my way onto like, either Project Runway or Great British Bake Off one of those shows and just not get eliminated first. I think I may be put, even though I'm not a great baker, or sewer because I think there will be someone who is really good, who will try to do too much. And they will really fail spectacularly. And I think I would probably be bottom two, but maybe not so bad that I would go the first episode, that would be my goal would be to last. Aminatou: Wow, I'm impressed. I'm impressed. She has a plan. [laughter] Katie, you are probably I like I feel actually very confident saying this. You are the most like curious person I know. Like, really a curious person I know. Caity: wow...wow Aminatou: Which frightens me and amazes me at the same time, but it is genuinely like one of the things I enjoy the most about you like you are, you never take any fact for granted. You’re always like, eh well let's look into that. And I and I wonder like, did you just like grow up being a kid who was like, you always needed to know everything about everything. Caity: Oh my gosh, that's such a nice compliment. Thank you. Um, I feel like, as you're describing that, I was thinking, why am I curious? Maybe it's because I'm so paranoid about being wrong. So I think I grew up like always wanting to be the best and do a really good job. So maybe I just got used to like, needing to be absolutely certain of things. And I will also say, I am really able to convince myself that I'm right about things like way too easily, frighteningly easily. So it's just best for me to, to really know that I am right. Because I understand that even if I have a fact wrong, I will always believe that it's right. Uh and that is scary and potentially embarrassing or harmful, my life. Aminatou: But you're like the poster child for um you know in like college is like we're looking for a well rounded student, I consider you to be someone who is very well rounded interest in that. You know, it's like you can talk about reality TV for all you want. But also you can write like an amazing profile about glitter or you will grovel across the United States and Amtrak and write about it. But also, you know, when I send you a text message and say like, did you notice you will correct me and like five? You know about anything. [laughter] Case in point. The other day, I texted you and said, look at this insane factoid I just learned and you were like, I mean, I do actually know the meaning of the word factoid, it doesn't mean what you think it does. And that sent me into a tailspin for hours. Caity: God I hate that anecdote about myself. I will say I only did it because we are friends. And it's something that I would want to be told if I say the word wrong, but like, I don't want to be the person who just corrects people out of pocket. Aminatou: I don't mean it in a like I it's funny that you're taking it as a you know, I'm sure that like for you, there's always like, oh, like, do I want to correct this person, but I find it exceedingly charming actually. And beyond like it being charming, I just think that there is such a value in like being precise. And especially in being precise with your language, you know, and being precise with your knowledge. Caity: mmhmm… Aminatou: And I love that, you know, that's something that I think about so much in an academic setting, but actually, like, within the confines of just any kind of human relationship. It's also just beautiful. So this is me telling you, I appreciate it because you also do it in the most hilarious and kind way you're not like one of those like, well actually, the word factoiid comes from the German word, blah, blah, blah, like this is not what's happening here. But I just I love it because I love it's it's such a good showcase of how your brain is and I'm in love with your brain Caity: Oh that's so sweet thank you Amina! So and my fiance and I have had a debate about this if I use a word either like i use the word incorrectly or really if I pronounced the word incorrectly I absolutely want to know because I want to know how to say that word. I'm embarrassed at the thought of saying it the wrong way. Um Taylor my my sweet boy, he reads aloud and speaks really really fast and so sometimes I do catch like oh you know he's that's not how you say that word and I you know me I love to jump in and say like so you know but he argues I actually like argue that if you are mispronouncing a word it makes you look smart because it shows that you've only seen that word written and like you're trying to use a new word to you, so it's like it shows you're a reader basically and not afraid to expand your vocabulary. Aminatou: I am really glad that Taylor's mom told him that, because that is a very sweet story. [laughter] Caity: I have to say I was kind of sold on it. I was like yeah you know what fair enough but it didn't change the fact that I still want to be corrected. Aminatou: Well here's my perspective, that is slightly different is that and i think i've shared the story on the podcast before so people are probably sick of hearing me say it and Ann has definitely heard me say it a million times. One of my biggest frustrations when I was learning english and even now is that I find that American english speakers are are very shy about correcting you because I guess in American culture there is something embarrassing about it right like you're pointing out a failure. I will say that in French people correct you all the time and it is like really obnoxious and other people consider it rude but it's because you're like there's a norm. The way to do it though that I really appreciate that the least obnoxious French way to correct someone when someone says a word wrong or if you're speaking and you use the wrong tense or you you know like you get the expression wrong is instead of looking at you like your willdabeast the person just repeat what you said and then incorporates it in the speech. You know? Caity: Yeah, yeah Aminatou: There's a different way of saying that, so like I remember for example my well this is a separate story but my english teacher in high school this is AP english this is like literally a story how you know that like adults are all idiots is we were reading out loud something and I said the word awry and she was like no it's ari and she was so mad and I was like why are you teaching AP english ma'am like you have heard wrong, but anyway um what I you know had she been right or had the tables been turned and you know like I had said ari like this situation is gone alright all she knew was say with a you're right the situation has gone awry and then move on in her speech like you just say the word so the other person clocks it right and then you know and then like if if you the normal interaction will be like, oh is that how you say that how is that how you pronounce that and then you can have a conversation about it but don't think that there's anything wrong with with correcting people. I think that it matters how you deliver it but I also think that people are really I noticed this a lot more here and I think it's just a cultural difference that people get really embarrassed you know when they get a word wrong I get words wrong all the time but I also have the hindsight of in learning a new language. I know that I got words wrong all the time so I don't internalize that as a personal failure, you know. I'm just sorry, I don't know how to say that word, it's not the end of the-- like a, like a word I didn't know how to say recently was now I can't even pronounce it anymore that like butterfly cocoon thing, chrysalis chrysalis, however you say it. Caity: I think its chrysalis but I will be looking it up after this conversation. Aminatou: Right, I believe my friend Jenny corrected me, it's chrysalis I believe or she she didn't correct me she said it the correct way and I was like oh is that how you say that and I believe it happened on this podcast even but you know I just I think that like being embarrassed that you cannot say a word is such a privilege and also just to me is like are you serious like there are so many other things to be embarrassed about in your life and uh-- Caity: [laughter] You're talking about me specifically Aminatou: No I'm saying to like like people who internalize that criticism. That's something that I let roll off my back really quickly because I do think that there's something correct about Taylor's point of view is that it does show that you yeah people who read and don't say words out loud like usually you don't want to say the word. Like the first time I said the word segue out loud I was shocked that it was the same segway that I was reading in a book I was like that's wild. Even though I knew what it means, but I like less the shaming of people for not knowing how to pronounce things, but also less feeling ashamed because you don’t know. Caity: I will say the best feeling and I can even think of a word that this happened to me on is when I realized that I've been saying a word wrong, because I hear someone say it right. They haven't yet heard me say it wrong. So it’s like oh my god, you don't realize you just get away the whole game. [laughter] Friend of mine, said the word detritus, which I have worse assumed with detritus. And from that day, I have never said it correctly, even though I had not. Now it's a word I use all the time to go out of my way to say it, because I know how it's pronounced. But it wasn't even the freaky thing is it wasn't even a word I wondered about, like, maybe I wonder how to say this. Like, I know how to say this. And I was simply wrong. What you were saying about the way that French people correct people, which I really love reminds me, a British friend told me once said if you're like at a table with British people, and you want something like let's say, You and I are sitting at a table, and I want more mashed potatoes, what I would say is not you pass the mashed potatoes, I would ask you, would you like some more mashed potatoes? And then that's supposed to be your cue to either say yes or no, but they often come back to me, which truly like would not have occurred to me and I love that idea. Aminatou: It's all very cultural theater, you know, everyone is just like, there's just all these subtle cultural norms that you have to be on top of. And sometimes I like them. And other times I don't. But I guess like, what, the thing that it always makes me think of is that norms change, you know, and you can be in charge of setting your own norm. Because all like rules of politeness are just I find them very oppressive, even when they're really useful. I was like, there's not one way to be in the world. And we should let people just, you should ask for what you want. And you should also, you know, like, state your needs. Be a useful person in the world. Caity: Well to your point, I mean, if someone wanted me to pass the mash potatoes, and asked if I wanted mashed potatoes, I would be like, Oh no, thank you and just keep talking. I definitely would not pick up on that. [laughter] Aminatou: But I find that very progressive. It's like why wouldn't you just say that you want them and you know what I mean [laughter] But again, they're just like, every culture has these weird things like that, but you're supposed to do and it really, it really drives me crazy. Like when, when Ann and I were writing our book, and we were reading about Deborah Tannen, this woman who is a she's a linguist, she's a linguist. And she writes a lot about this, you know, the the subtleties in the ways that women speak to each other. One example that she used, is, you know, like, women will always say like, huh aren't you cold? Instead of saying, Can you turn the air conditioner off? Like, who says that? When I'm cold, I tell people, I'm cold. Like, this is so weird, but I do, but I do recognize that in wanting to be polite, there are a ton of other ways that we make it like make specifically very indirect requests. And my take is always like, just say the thing that you want, because this is weird, not everyone is picking up on this. Caity: Well, I read a thing recently, a book that I read for, for work for a story that I'm working on, because someone wrote a line that was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna misquote it, but it was basically requests build intimacy. So it's actually good to just ask people for things directly, because that kind of starts like a back and forth action. Rather than sort of like dancing around it and coming in from bunch of weird ways. If someone feels like I have given you something that you wanted, I have helped you, that just you know, fosters a connection. Aminatou: Like I love that is can they teach that at school, please? [laughter] Caity: And I have said, Actually, I bought into the idea. A year ago or so, a few years ago, my new year's resolution was just ask people for more things, which I had forgotten about until we started just now but I'm just gonna ask for more and see if people will do things and the answer was yes. And I remember the first day I couldn't practice I asked a man like sitting in another round an airplane my bag down for me and and he just like yess, was like oh yeah absolutely. And normally, I would have just struggled with it myself. I was no its actually fine to ask people. How nice. Aminatou: You never asked me. I don't like this. Caity: Oh, I asked you for things all the time. Aminatou: I literally can't think of one thing. Caity: [laughter] Oh, okay, I want anything you're offering. I would like it and I have it. Aminatou: Okay, I'll give you everything I have Caity. [laughter] Caity: I probably would honestly take it. That's the sad thing. [music] [ad] Aminatou: I want to ask about your ideas again, because you are you're obviously like a very, very good reporter, you are a very good writer. But before you do all of those things like where do your ideas live? Do you have an ideas like journal? Do you like jot things down in a note? Do you like, like, how do you? How do you know that something that you're thinking about is like worth pursuing? Caity: Oh, my gosh, I feel like I'm basically at that at the level like picking stories I kind of never know. And I'm, I'm one of those people who is always sort of scrambling for stories and trying to come up with things I get my ideas, just sort of from talking to editors, a lot of times it'll be me like, sending them a bunch of links and be like, oh my God, isn't this funny. And finally, they're like, you actually need to now write about this, because you've talked, you've given me a monologue about it for 20 minutes just wasting time. [laughter] Caity: Once I have the idea, I do try to stick to the sort of premise that if I don't know something, or if I'm curious about something, and other people also won't know it and will, you know, be at least somewhat curious about it, I try not to include information in my stories, because I feel like I have to only if it's something that I really think is interesting or didn't understand or was wondering about, I feel like the glitter story I wrote for the times is a pretty good example of this, because that was just me. My editor had asked me to look into another story. And I wasn't really finding stuff. And I basically ended up on a YouTube video of like CDs being crushed and I was like, Oh that looks like glitter. And then I realized I didn't know how glitter was made and that was more interesting to me than the original idea I had been looking up. So I was like, Can I just figure out how glitter is made? And she was like, Yeah okay. And then I I just set off on that quest. And it ended up being a lot more complicated and secretive than I thought it would be. But once I found people who did know how to make glitter, you know, it's kind of like that, that scene in My Cousin Vinny. It's like, explain it to me like I'm a five year old. I really do ask people to do that. I need people to do that. Because I feel like I don't have a very strong science background. So if if a story tiptoes into scientific territory or engineering territory at all, it's really like, okay back it up. How do we make electricity? [laughter] I asked someone that at a party when they were able. I mean it to me for a while I knew, but I couldn't tell you now I could kind of I could tell you a version because I'm able to convince myself that would like probably sound pretty much right but it would be absolutely wrong. Aminatou: I have never once thought to myself, how is glitter made or like looked at a thing that I use? Like I was like, I don't know how my watch is made. I don't know how my phone is made. I don't even know how my body like stands up every day. So I'm glad that someone is investigating all of this for me. Caity: But you know where that comes from, my my papa my grandfather used to love to say in any room we're in, point to anything in this room and the guy who invented it is a millionaire. [laughter] He was probably right. Aminatou: [laughter] Is that why I’m not a millionaire because I don’t ask that question. Caity: So now I'm just I'm constantly looking around rooms and being like, Oh my God, why didn't I think to like make screws? Or Oh, why didn't I come up with the idea for denim, I could be a millionaire. Aminatou: Oh my gosh, or the person who made that little table sand that they put in the pizza boxes so the box doesn't crush. Caity: I'm sure I had actually looked up on the person who invented it. I can't remember off the top of my head. But-- Aminatou: I have looked that up. Because Domino's Pizza was like when I used to work in digital PR a million years ago. They were like one of my very first clients at the place that I worked out. So I unfortunately know a little too much about that. But I can't tell you anything about it. Caity: Oh was it was it Domino's that came up with it? I actually read the memoir of the Domino's founder. Aminatou: Oh, it's disputed, like Domino's says they definitely came up with it. But some you know, like other people are like, like, eh did you come up with it? Or did you just make it popular? You know? Caity: Yeah, yeah. Aminatou: So I love I love people who fight about inventions. I just can't be bothered to invent. Caity: I would love to invent, I have no idea how to do it. I can't think of anything we need. I love to complain. But I don't ever take steps to fix it. I just like to put the complaints out there into the air. Aminatou: If you had to like have a business, your survival depended on being like having a startup and the startup had to be like a very ubiquitous one so kind of how like every like you go to the airport and everyone has an Away suitcase you know or or you're walking around New York in Brooklyn you're walking around Brooklyn and everyone is wearing Bloodstones or whatever what would be one thing that you're like this is what I would do? Caity: Like I literally if I knew the answer to this question I would already be doing it and like we wouldn't even be talking because i wouldn't be too rich. If I had one idea I would have done it. [laughter] what can I even like I don't, I don't have any useful ideas I can't think of anything I could make that someone else would want a friend oh well you know what? Aminatou: What? Caity: This isn't my idea and I think you're probably a lot of reasons why they don't do this but one one problem that I would love to have fixed is I think that cans of coke should be about 50% bigger [laughter] or only have the small cans but make them keeper as small cans like two or three of them is the right amount of soda they actually work out paying more per can than like a normal size and the normal size can is not quite enough to get me through a meal. I would like another like 30 to 50% more soda, without having to open a brand new can and then waste half that can. So I guess, I would be the person who has exactly replicated the taste of diet coke and then created a can that is a little bit larger to clean it. Aminatou: I love it. Another interest of yours I mean we've kind of touched on it but not really is you really like linguistics Caity. What's up with that? Was that like a college major thing for you? Like what’s the deal? Caity: That was a college major. Well the reason I got interested in it is I went to a really weird small like it was a private school, but to call it that sounds a lot fancier, and it was a really small, like little community school from preschool through eighth grade and it's the kind of school it wasn't part of like a network. It's not a name anyone would know. It had 100 kids in it and it was basically just run by these sisters who like felt like they could run a good school and they could. It was very old fashioned in a lot of ways but I got a really good foundation of things and they had a great great great eccentric French teacher there who I loved and Madame Schaefer. And she would always when she was teaching us words she loved to show us the connections between words and like so yeah so this one teacher would just like really made words seem sort of like fun puzzles that were out there in the open for anyone who cared to explore them. And then eventually I found out that like that was kind of a thing called or related to a thing called linguistics and so when I applied to college I also thought I think english would have been the most natural major for me but I thought that there were going to be a lot of english majors so maybe it would be good to number one like show interest in a slightly different subject, and then also I would be not competing against your people if I were not an english major if I were a linguistics major say that's what I majored in. And a lot of it I really liked I learned a ton of great fun party facts. A lot of it was quite hard and I would say of the it's such a small major at my school I think there were maybe definitely fewer than 10 of us the year I graduated. But like I was obviously the worst out of our group of six people or however many we were. I was like the worst at linguistics and I wasn't bad I just was they were like making up languages on the weekends and stuff and they understood computer science which I did not. But yeah, I really I really liked a lot of it and it also taught me a lot of experience like reading kind of dense scientific papers for some of the classes which I think is actually proved useful in my career surprisingly. Uh yeah, I've just always been really interested in it. I love learning about words and where they come from and how they relate to other words I love hearing people speak other languages and trying to parse out you know if I'm watching something with captions and a language I don't know I love trying to learn words just from that. Aminatou: Do you do it whenever you're watching our Danish TV show we’re obsessed with Borgen? Caity: [laughter] Yes Aminatou: I'm pronouncing that wrong but I'm gonna learn how to say that the correct way. I do that all the time and I cannot figure out which word is which except for when they say spin doctor which is what they call publicists and I love that word. Caity: Yess really really good. I actually I got a call I was able to kind of glean a couple words from that well what's the other one you told me that so crazy it's like apple juice means orange juice or something? Aminatou: Appleseed is orange juice but it's also what they say in Denmark for cheese like whenever you're like smiling in front of like for a photo. Caity: Oh I love stuff like that, I think sort of what I like about languages and also I really, for whatever reason, really like just things that show like our humanity across cultures. So I love when like, everyone has a different word for that. I really like cultural constance. I find something very like charming. Knowing that like, oh, and people over here in this place that I've never heard of they do this too. It's sort of, you know, it's like heartening, Aminatou: I know I sound like a broken record, Caity. But I love this because you just really embody a quality that I think everyone should have. It's one generally like being curious, but also knowing where to find information. Because this is the stumbling block of everybody who drives me up the wall on the internet's for example you know. They are just saying how, like, they just like, say wrong things, or they do wrong things. And no one, no one goes to, like, find the thing that you were supposed to find to make it right. And I just like, really appreciate that you are, you know, you're like, I gotta like, find how to know a thing that I don't know about. So Caity, you have written a lot of celebrity profiles. Caity: Yes. Aminatou: They are delightful to read. The Justin Bieber one is, it's like in my top 10 of like anything I've ever read ever about. I love it, it is hard to make something out of nothing. And I my nightmare would be to write a celebrity profile. Because I'm just like, these people don't really give you a lot to say they're promoting a thing, or whatever. So I always appreciate that you have like a different entry into writing about that. But I guess like, I wonder, like, what has surprised you the most about doing that kind of writing? Aminatou: Let me think, surprise-- well, one thing, I'm always confused by the fact that number one that these people are talking to me I know, on some level, they kind of are obligated to if they have to promote something, I just think I would be afraid to do it. Because there's so there's so much room for error on the part of the person being interviewed. I'm really confused by the fact they, if you're already rich, that you keep doing things. I talked to Jeff Bridges, and he has been acting for so long. He's been in so many things. He clearly has enough money. And it's just like, I don't understand why you're doing this or like The Rock. I remember when I was like, why are you doing this you have done enough? I admit, if I made what I considered enough money, which I think would be a lot less than these people. I would efinitely stop. So I'm not, I guess I'm sort of surprised they keep doing it. I'm mainly confused. One thing I always noticed, and I'm pleasantly surprised by is when someone is I'm interviewing them, like over a meal. If they offer to pick up the check. Most people don't, which is fine, because they shouldn't it's always like a place we'll pay for it. But I remember, I think the first celebrity whoever did that was Kim Kardashian. And I have to like really insist that I would pay for it. Or that you know GQ would pay for it, Conde Nast would pay for it kinda and so pay for it. I'm pretty sure Maya Rudolph offered. But but most people don't. Aminatou: Wow. Caity: Yeah, which is again, it's fine. Because it's sort of like, well, we could say that it's maybe it's bad that they're offering because it's like they should, they presumably know on some level that like, I'm not actually paying for this. They don't need to pay for it. Aminatou: They know, they're in your head. Caity: Right, exactly. Yeah, but then it's also like, well why doesn't everyone offer? If you know, it’s just to look good. Aminatou: I have so many things to respond to that one I feel about celebrities continuing to work the same way that I feel about writers who are stilll on Twitter, you know? I'm just like, why you already accomplished the thing that you came here to accomplish? But I think that what you know, like with actors, one, obviously, the, the good take is that some people really genuinely like their job. And so they will keep doing their jobs. You know, but at the same time, I'm just like, for a lot of those people, it's their medium. Like, if they're not acting, how do they stay relevant in public life, and I don't know that they know how to do that. So they have to keep acting. But some people that really like boggles me, especially the older the actor is, I'm always like you’re 79, like working, you know, like, where is retirement? And obviously, the answer is yes some people really enjoy their work. And I should really honor that. But I'm like you I was like, there's an amount of money that when I get it, you will never hear another word from me ever again. Caity: Absolutely. Aminatou: Like I'm retiring from all activities. Caity: Like Maggie Smith, how much fun could you really be having? Is this really the absolute most fun activity for you to be participating in is making a Downton Abbey movie. So so yeah, so that's I'm always I feel like I'm always asking famous people the same question which is like, why why are you doing, why do you do this? Aminatou: Like did someone smell really good? Was someone like so much nicer than you thought? Like so much more beautiful even in person than on? Caity: Okay. Yes, these are great questions. So, beautiful Cardi B in person with no or very little makeup couldn't believe how pretty and like, such delicate like she looked like a tiny ballerina doll to me, like in a music box. Really pretty face. Smelled good? Also, yes. Sarah Paulson, I did a very short interview with her for GQ. I interviewed a bunch of people from the cast of the OJ show. And she smells really good. I think I probably asked her what she was wearing. She told me but then, like, months later, I was in New York, and I was waiting for the subway. And all of a sudden, I smelled something really good. And I was like, where have I smelled that before? Oh it smells like Sarah Paulson and I looked up and it was her. Aminatou: [laughter] Caity: And that’s also like the only celebrity I’ve ever seen in New York. I didn’t say anything, I would never go up to a celebrity. I always remember that she smelled really good. I’m always really touched if it’s a phone interview and the celebrity just calls you directly. I think I understand why they wouldn’t want to, but I think it’s a smart move, because like we got to go through the publicist and it like takes, it just starts it off on an annoying note. And like I’m never going to call you back or call me from your publicist’s phone even, it doesn’t have to be your phone. But I’m often surprised by like kind of the lower level of celebrity that goes through their publicist. People who will just talk to you directly, John Travolta called me himself. He was like, Caity, it’s JT. Aminatou: [laughter] Did you tell him that that’s Justin Timberlake? Caity: No, I didn’t tell John that, I didn’t tell JT that. And actually god while I was talking to him that was like one of my worst interview experiences because I used to live in an apartment in New York that was like ground floor, first buzzer. So anyone who needed to get in would buzz my apartment. And someone was going to another apartment and just laying on my buzzer and like would not stop. And I had to be like, John I’m so sorry I have to buzz in a stranger, I don’t care if they’re here to kill everyone. So he called directly, I’m pretty sure The Rock, uh yeah The Rock made himself like just available for, to like pick-up questions or if I needed to get in touch with him. He was good. Aminatou: I mean he’s like running for president, obviously so. I know the minute he announces you’re going to be his spin doctor. So yeah, that’s how that’s going to work. Caity: [laughter] From what I’ve learned off Borgen and just my innate self confidence, I do believe get him into the white house. [laughter] I think I could get anyone elected in any country. Because I’ve watched every season of Borgen. Aminatou: I mean, you could definitely get him elected in Denmark. Good luck. [laughter] Caity: For Taylor’s birthday, I made him a Danish campaign poster, like he was running, like he was running in the fake TV election we watched. [laughter] Aminatou: Everyone should watch Borgen. This is my, this is, we’re doing this whole episode to convince everyone to watch it on Netflix. It’s so good. Please do yourself the pleasure. Caity: It really is. Aminatou: Do yourself the pleasure. Okay Caity, last question from me, even though I could talk to you for an hour more and hours and hours more. When you were growing up and you were like when I grow up maybe I’ll be a writer or I’ll do all these things like blah blah blah. Like all these aspirations you had for yourself… Caity: mmhmm Aminatou: Today, in the pandemic, with everything nuts that’s going, do you think that like baby Caity would be very much ike, yeah this is a really good life for me, this is the life I built for myself? Caity: Oh my gosh, she would be thrilled. When I was young, I was like positive I was going to be on SNL and also already stressed about it. I was like, oh my god this job is really hard, I’m having to come up with sketches all the time, and like the hours are crazy. So I I was already like ready to quit the job at SNL that I didn’t have. So the fact that I have created a life, and also the pandemic has created a life for me, where I just spend like all weekend watching TV and I am going to be marrying someone who is always happy to get pizza, like that would be perfect for me. I actually when I was really little used to say, that I was going to marry a pizza man, like a pizza delivery man and Taylor did that job one summer, so my dream has come true. Aminatou: [laughter] Well Caity, I miss you and I cannot wait till I see you next, hopefully at 10,000 Waves or maybe at a pizzeria. Caity: Oh god, Amina, they won’t tell you this but Santa Fe has better pizza than New York City. Aminatou: I’m hanging up on you, I am hanging up on you. You are going to get both of us canceled. I will comment on anything on the internet except for pizza, [laughter] because it just never ends well. So I have nothing to say about your pizza commentary. Caity: Come to Santa Fe, try the pizza! [interview ends] Aminatou: Man, I love that that she gave so many juicy details about the celebrity interviews that she does. Because I almost never want to ask because I feel like it’s feels rude to ask, but I really love it when the friends who interview celebrities like volunteer that stuff. Ann: This is also the secret of to why we love to do phone-a-friends which is you get your friends the ask the kinds of questions that might seem weird of like of someone who you’re just like casually friends with but in a semi-professional setting you can be like, wait no tell me actually how you do that. Aminatou: True story. Caity Weave is amazing. Follow her on twitter, her tweets are actually very good. And I, as someone who hates twitter, that is the highest praise I can give. Her tweets are very good, her articles are very good. Follow her on all platforms. Knock yourself out. We will also include a list of like her very best things that she’s written. If you have not read her big feature on glitter, you are playing yourself and you should do that. And all the celebrity profiles are worth it. Ann: See you on the internet and in Caity Weaver’s archive. Aminatou: See you in Santa Fe one day! [outro music] Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.

Call Your Girlfriendcaity weaver, celebrities