Summer of Friendship: Forever35
8/13/21 - Our summer of friendship continues with Kate Spencer and Doree Shafrir, hosts of the podcast Forever35. While we love their conversations about serums and budget-friendly makeup tips, we come and stay for their deep friendship, which started on the internet and was partly cemented at a CYG live show.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Doree and Kate are both writers. Doree's memoir is Thanks for Waiting: The Joy (& Weirdness) of Being a Late Bloomer. Kate's book is The Dead Moms Club: A Memoir about Death, Grief, and Surviving the Mother of All Losses.
Big Friendship is available from Bookshop.org | Indiebound | B&N | Amazon | BAM | Target | Signed copies available at Books Are Magic | McNally Jackson | The Strand
TRANSCRIPT: SUMMER OF FRIENDSHIP: FOREVER35
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: She’s Ann Friedman
Ann: And she’s Aminatou Sow.
Aminatou: Ann, we’re back today. It's so fun to be back.
Ann: We are back and love chatting with you. Love also that we are about to hand off today's episode to two of our very favorite podcasters. Our summer friendship continues, and we are going to get a peek inside the friendship of Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, who hosts Forever35.
[theme song]
Ann: Truly, we love the show. We love these women. They are both writers and creative forces in their own right. Doree has a brand new memoir out called Thanks for Waiting: The Joy and Weirdness of Being a Late Bloomer. And Kate is also a lovely memoirist and, um, together we cannot get enough of their dynamic. Like, yes, their show is about beauty and serums and self care, but it is also just a show that I really love listening to in the pandemic when I wanted a little like zone out pleasant company in my ears. And, um, I am so thrilled to give all of our listeners a peek into this friendship as well. You kind of hear the surface level on their show and, uh, this is a real treat going deeper here. Our Doree and Kate from Forever35.
Aminatou: Listen in.
[interview begins]
Doree: Hey Kate.
Kate: Hi Dorie.
Doree: How's it going?
Kate: It's going great. Let's just disclose what I was just going to say, this is a conversation about friendship and let's just say that we just talked for 30 minutes prior to recording this.
Doree: Oh, we sure did.
Kate: We just gabbed it up?
Doree: It's great to see you. I'm uh, I'm excited to talk about our friendship. Should we start by giving everyone our friendship origin story? Cause it's very like of a time.
Kate: It's very aughts.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: It's very Gen X-er aughts.
Doree: Yes, yes, yes.
Kate: Well, you know, I first knew who you were, obviously because you were a writer at Gawker.com, which if you were a 20 something in the aughts, you had a tab open at all times on your work computer to Gawker. And so I always knew who you were. And then we became friends on the microblogging app Tumblr, probably in like what like 2008.
Doree: I mean, prior to it being an app, it was a website. It was a website.
Kate: Yeah, you're right. I don't even know if apps existed at that point.
Doree: I feel like they didn't. Yeah. Um, yeah. And I don't remember how I found your tumbler. You must've been re-blogged by someone I was following or, but, um, I was like, oh, this woman is really cool and funny, but you also were grieving.
Kate: Yeah. Just when you want, just what you love when a person said, I shouldn't say that, you know, obviously we love grief, but yes, I was, my mom had died, had died in 2007. And so a lot of my Tumblr content was about reentering the world as a grieving motherless person.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: So I appreciate that you were quote, unquote attracted to that.
Doree: I was, I was drawn to it because I feel like it's hard to write about grief without being super sentimental or maudlin. And you just had this, you struck a really great tone. I thought, which carried over into the book, you wrote about grief.
Kate: Thanks Doree.
Doree: The Dead Moms Club. Um, so yeah, so we, we followed each other on Tumblr and then I feel like we also followed each other on Twitter while you were, you were still tweeting, which you don't anymore.
Kate: No, it's been about three years of non tweeting. And, but yeah, we were in, we were internet friends.
Doree: Yeah. We were in like, we were kind of in different worlds in New York. Like I was in more of like a media and journalism world. You were in like this UCB improv comedy world. And I guess those worlds, like, at least for me at the time didn't really overlap.
Kate: And I also worked in media weirdly. Like we were both working in digital media, but there was definitely like a scene that I feel like you were at the forefront of that was very cool and aspirational that I just, like, I loved like watching it occur online. And I, and I, I used to read all your work. So like I did come into our friendship and I think this does happen probably now all the time. Like I already knew all about you because I had read your about you or like, I'd read all your work, which often it was very personal. So, you know, I knew all about your dog who had passed away in that you had been in a relationship that had ended. And I had known where you lived in New York City. Like, I really knew a lot of details.
Doree: I mean, I really put a lot of stuff out there. Probably not great for, for privacy reasons. Um, but then you moved to LA in 2012?
Kate: Eleven, 2011.
Doree: 2011. And I was still in New York, but then I moved to LA in 2013. I don't remember who reached out to whom, but we decided to get drinks IRL.
Kate: I think you reached out to me. And I think that, because I think you, in hindsight, like now, knowing you, you were really proactive in forming connections in Los Angeles when you moved here.
Doree: That is accurate.
Kate: And I remember it. And I remember also you including me in social things when we were like first becoming friends, real friends that like I found touching because I'm so shy and I'm so like, I don't put my, or I'm getting better at it, but I don't put myself out there. And I just remember you like invited me to like a makeup swap at your house.
Doree: Oh yeah. That was really fun.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: Which is also kind of foreshadow-y to like what we do now. It's so funny.
Kate: So weird. That's so funny.
Doree: But also you had a kid.
Kate: Well, I had two kids by the time you'd moved out here, but I, and I had just given birth, I think like two months before when we went and got a drink, maybe six weeks before it was something yeah.
Doree: You had really recently given birth.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: And that, yeah. And so that kind of started our IRL friendship. And then a couple of years later, I decided I wanted to be in a writing group. And I just asked you if you want it to be in like a two person writing group, like in retrospect it's so it's kind of weird that I did that, but because we weren't that good friends at the time, like we were friends, but I think actually the only like one-on-one activity we had done was going to a Call Your Girlfriend show.
Kate: You invited me to go on a friend date, their live show at the Ace hotel. It was so good. I mean, again, talk about like aspirational. I know are like, oh, podcast role models are Ann and Aminatou. So yeah and I, you know, it was funny. I have a very vivid memory of this, of you and I discussing like getting a little writer's group together. And I was like, what if we added this third person? And you were like, no.
Doree: Oh really? Did I say this?
Kate: Yes. You were like, I just want it to be [laughter] but then it kind of worked out.
Doree: Really kind of worked. And I don't, I can't remember like exactly what I was thinking at the time, but I can surmise that part of my reluctance to add a third person was solely logistics. That any time you start adding more people, trying to find a time that is available for everyone just gets super complicated.
Kate: Forget it.
Doree: And I was like, we can just do this, the two of us. So we started meeting, was it monthly? Did we meet monthly?
Kate: I don't even remember the frequency. I don't remember over the course of that time, we both wrote and sold books. Yeah, we did it. We did what we set out to do.
Doree: Yeah. We fully did what we set out to do. Just kind of wild. Um, here's the question. And then we made a podcast. Here's a question for you. What is something that you get from our friendship that is unique that like you don't get from any other friendship?
Kate: I mean, one thing I do think that's really interesting is that a lot of my close friendships, not all of them, but a lot of them, people I'm really close with date back to earlier times in my life. Like I've known them for much longer. And so I really value you as an adult friendship, a person who I met when, as an adult who is also an adult who we don't have the baggage of like a decades long growth together.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: And so I feel like we both come into our relationship. I just, I just kind of from like a different point in our lives that I find really beneficial. And you know, I also just like individually thinking of you specifically, you're just an incredibly like sound and stable and consistent person. And I feel like, uh, you're you are a very patient sounding board and I don't ever feel, um, like I'm burdening you with my problems
Doree: No, I love, I love people's problems.
Kate: Even sometimes, I mean, today I woke up and I was annoyed about something. I immediately was like time at text Doree that I'm annoyed about this. You were not annoying me, but it just, I just was like, oh, I'm going to go to my usual sounding board of a person who will hear me and patiently redirect my energy. And so that, that is what--
Doree: I felt like actually I was like, oh no, did I? I was like, I don't think I gave Kate the response she was looking for.
Kate: No, you did. You get, you did. But then you also were like, Hey, recalibrate, like just check, recheck yourself a little bit. And so it was good. Thank you.
Doree: Okay. Well, thanks. You know, it's funny you say that about me being an adult friend, because I feel like I have a lot of adult friends, but what I, what I especially value about our friendship is like, you, weren't a media friend, even though we like met through media kind of, but I don't know. There's something about that aspect of our friendship that I really appreciate. I also feel like, like I never have to worry about like seeming cool.
Kate: Ah really? Yeah. Oh I love that.
Doree: Not because you're not cool, but because I feel like you're just like, you're so not judgmental and oh no don’t cry.
Kate: Oh, no, it’s just so nice.
Doree: Yeah. I really feel like the conversation we had before we started recording, I felt like it was a pretty vulnerable conversation to have.
Kate: Yes, you know, it's like it's filled with such laughter that you almost don't realize that you're having an actually like a vulnerable conversation.
Doree: Right. But I, but you're, I feel like you're always so good at you. Like you're really good at hearing me also.
Kate: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Doree: You know, what else? I really value about our friendship. You know, I have a two year old now and you have a 10 year old and an eight year old.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: And so like, you've kind of been there, done that with two kids. And so some of the things that like stress me out about being a mom or like the world of moms, you can kind of talk me down and be, and either be like, you know what I've been there. And like, this is how I felt, and this is what happened. Or, you know, like you just, you just have this wisdom that I don't have a ton of friends who I feel like I can talk to who have that wisdom. Like a lot of my mom friends, quote, unquote, are people whose kids are the same age as my kid and which is great and really valuable also, but different, you know, like we're just all we're muddling through it ourselves, you know? And you're like fully on the other side of a lot of the things that we're dealing with.
Kate: Well, I appreciate you saying that also because my, I never want to be the kind of like parent who to other parents it's oh, just you wait, it gets so much harder. Or like the, like savor it now, you know, like there's all these kinds of like, uh, refrains of parents.
Doree: Yes, the just you wait, drives me so crazy. It was like, it starts when you're pregnant, you know, it's like, everything is, well, just wait until blahblah. And I, like, I always want it to be like, shut up because I'm the one that like, sometimes it's like, can you just like, let me be in this moment of whatever it is. And also like, I might not have the same experience that you had, you know, like we had all these people saying like, well, just you wait about our son, like not sleeping. And you know, we had some struggles with sleep, but like knock on wood for the most part, he's been a pretty good sleeper. And so that was the kind of thing where I was like, hey, you know what, actually, that wasn't my experience. But like, thanks for stressing me out about it.
Kate: I think there's, I don't know, but there's a whole like way in which people center themselves in conversations about parenting that's really could be a whole other podcast. Here's a question that we've been asked, Doree. Tell us about one of your longest running inside jokes. AKA personal means I have one immediately off the top of my head.
Doree: Oh my gosh. What is it?
Kate: Okay. So here's a really important aspect of my friendship with Doree is that Doree will say something or come up with an idea or be like, Hey, I think we should do this. And I'll always be like, I need to mull it over. And then about like three weeks go by. And then I repeat, re-pitch Doree's ideas to the both of us, or I'm like, Hey, I had this great, I've come to this amazing conclusion. And Doree will then say--
Doree: [laughter] Sometimes I even have the receipts, like the text receipts. I'm like, oh, you fully do. Kate, I actually said, this is problematic and you’re like eh I don’t know.
Kate: It’s because I do the thing it's, it's like what gets talked about in meetings, oftentimes I think, uh, in like a gender dynamic where like, let's say a woman would suggest something in a meeting and get, it will get ignored. And then a male colleague or boss will like regurgitate it as their own idea. Do you recognize what I’m talking about?
Doree: I know what you're saying. I do that to you, which I don't like, but I don't know what it is. I don't think that that is what is going on with you. I think with you. I think that it takes like, sometimes it takes you a little time to process things, right? Like, yes. Sometimes when I like propose something, I also, when I come up with a new idea, I sometimes get like, super excited about it and I'm like, I want to like do it now. And you're like, okay, slow your roll. Which is good. Also, like we should not do every single wackadoodle idea that I come up with a lot of ideas. You were often just like, okay, like, let's think about it. And then sometimes I'm like, oh Kate hated that idea. And then like weeks later, I think when you've had time to process it, but like, you also have a million other things going on in your life. So like, it's almost like you have this like little thing in the back of your head. That's like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And you're like, oh, that would be such a good idea. But like, you can't remember where you heard it from.
Kate: Thank God you remember.
Doree: And then you say something and I'm like, yeah.
Kate: I mean, this has happened a lot. I can't stress how many times that that has happened. So I, yeah. At least I feel like I'm somewhat aware of it, but you are. You're aware of it. And you know, I could also, as I think I've said this before, but like, if I wanted to, I could like really with you and kind of like inception you to like, yes, like have ideas that were actually like bad and
Kate: And put them on me.
Doree: Yeah, but I would never do that.
[music]
Doree: This isn't like a meme or an inside joke, but I think it's something that we both enjoy. I'm already laughing and I'm sure other people do this too, but like you, and I, I think have a really amazing ability to get obsessed with inconsequential people.
Kate: Yes. We just, this is what we were doing before we just recorded this.
Doree: Yeah. Like, and it's often like a particular kind of like semi influencer-y or someone who like, is tangentially in our lives. Like someone who we encounter where we're like, what is that person's deal? And like you and I will do a deep dive. We will find payment on our doors. We put on our fedoras and we have like their home address, their like childhood pet name. We have all their security questions answered and yeah. And it's nice to like it's, but that also like makes me feel validated because like, not everyone would be into that. Like some people would be like, why are you like a, why are you even wasting your time on this person who does not matter? And b, like isn't that a little creepy and two that I would say yes, but…
Kate: Well, I do think that speaks to kind of the way that our brains work, which is like an envy. We both, I think have investigative brains and can put it on and tend to, you know, I wrote about celebrities early on in my writing career, and then it's taken me a long time to realize, like, I didn't, I just couldn't stop learning about them. Like I needed to know everything. And it was, it feels compulsive at times, but it's fascinating to me to learn about the human experience or just who is this person. So I think that's also why I enjoy interviewing people on our podcast. You know, like, I, I really am curious about, about getting about really understanding people. And so I think in like that can, that can play be advantageous to us and what we do for a living. But also it can just be like really deep, unlike new, like a person that we met at a party.
Doree: Yeah. Yes. And I think for me, a lot of times, my like motivating question is like, how is this person rich?
Kate: And you always find the answer. I will say, you're better at it. I mean, you're really good at this.
Doree: Well I don't know all that, like money stuff is just so fascinating to me. And like generational wealth is fascinating to me. And then like, so often it is generational wealth and it's like, oh, you, like, you find something out about, you know, someone's family. And you're like, oh, that makes sense why they live in that house or whatever. Um, so I appreciate that. Like you're down to you're down to find that out too. You're down for it. You're down for that journey.
Kate: I mean one of the questions was asked was what are the privilege and power dynamics that affect your friendship. This is a little bit of a segue talking about examining people's wealth. I mean, what are the privilege and power dynamics? I don't know if they affect our friendship. I mean, I do think one thing that we have both kind of come into at the same time is that we have dual, we're both in dual income partnerships with our spouse. And that has allowed for us to at times like leave jobs and try to pursue creative things that many people would not be able to do because we have that, um, that financial security in our, uh, marriages. And I think that allowed us to, I mean, we were, I was freelancing, you're working full-time at Buzzfeed when we started our podcast. But like, there was a lot of room for me to be able to be like, I'm going to do, I'm going to focus my intention on this podcast that may or may not make money and not actually like focus on the writing jobs that do bring in money. Um, and that hasn't always been the state of my relationship with my husband, but it definitely was when we started the podcast. And so that is I think, a huge privilege. And then also I think we have access to people based on past relationships that wait does this is affect our friendship. I don't know if these things affect our friendship. I'm more thinking about how they affect our working relationship. I don't know. Are there privileged youth that do, can you think of privileges and power dynamics that affect our friendship? You know, cause we both are like, we're both white women. We're both cis het women. I mean, I'm assuming that you would agree with that. We both have a lot of financial security at the moment, you know? So I feel like those things--
Doree: Well, I think one thing is like you and your husband own your house and my husband and I rent and living in Los Angeles, I think it's becoming increasingly harder to especially like buy a first home. And so that is something that like, and it's not, it's not like just, you it's, you know, it's something that I feel sort of confronted with in a lot of places. And it also makes me feel like less settled. Like you feel like settled in your home, like, you know, it's your home. And I don't like really have that. And so, but again, like, I don't know that that like affects our friendship.
Kate: No, but I do think it can affect, or it can influence a relationship in the way in which two people come into a friendship or the, you know, the perspectives. And also just the points of view. Do you think we have shared values? I think so. Whate are the values you share as friends? Hmm. I mean, I, I do think like we're pretty, uh, communicative and I appreciate that because I'm, I am trying to learn how to be a better friend and I do feel like you've communicated. Not very gently if like I've done shit that's not cool. And I'm really trying to work on that because I do feel like I have a habit of just being a flake. I mean, listen, we also can talk about my adult ADHD discoveries that are rocking my life, but I just feel like you, uh, like there's a level of respect that I feel like, um, is both expected and given, and I really appreciate that. I don't ever feel like there's, I'm giving and not receiving in my friendship with you. And I, and I try to, I strive to honor that because I do feel like that is like your ver there's no, there's no games. And I hope I don't bring games to the table either.
Doree: No you don't. And I actually, now that you're saying that like, I'm realizing how many friendships I had kind of earlier in my life that were, I don't want to say dysfunctional, but like felt one sided in a way that like, ultimately didn't make me feel good and I never feel that from you. So thank you. You know, um,
Kate: We were asked like, has there been a time when you worried your friendship might not make it? I don't personally feel like there's been time where I've been like this isn't gonna work. And in many ways I sometimes am like, is the other shoe ever going to drop or a Doree and I just like really in a secure partnership.
Doree: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've asked myself the same questions and like it going back to, you know, being adult friends and like becoming friends at, at that specific point in our lives. Like, I feel like I, now I understand how to be a better friend and there's friendships that I still have with people that we're still friends, but I don't feel like it's as functional a dynamic.
Kate: Yeah. I totally get that.
Doree: Like, I, I feel like I have friends who if like, if the shit really hit the fan and I, like, I really needed something, they would a hundred percent be there for me, but on like a day-to-day basis, maybe not so much, you know, which, you know, if I like really want to get deep about it, I feel like is the dynamic I have with my dad. So like there's all kinds of like ehh there.
Kate: Oh, that's really interesting.
Doree: Okay. So I think it's not coincidental that you and I became friends after I'd been through a lot of therapy and like dealt with a lot of my and really kind of came to terms with the way the, the types of relationships that I got into and the types of friendships that I got into. And now I think I'm able to be in healthier relationships.
Kate: That's so great.
Doree: So I know, um, which like, you know, I think that, I think it's not coincidental that we like became close friends when we did, like, I actually don't think we would have been close friends if we hadn't met in our late, like out twenties.
Kate: I don't think so either.
Doree: You know? So like that's really interesting to me too.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I know like if, what if we had met in high school?
Doree: Right. And you know that also, you know, now that you say that it makes me wonder, like, are there people in high school that I wasn't friends with at all, who like now we would be really good friends and like probably, yeah.
Kate: Yes. I think so too. You know, and I actually feel like not sorrow about that because you can't go back and live your life.
Doree: Okay. I think we have time for like one more question.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Okay. So here's, here's an interesting question. How has your on air friendship different from the off air offline version?
Kate: Yeah. This is like, so I guess we should clarify that in 2018, we started our podcast together called Forever35, kind of not knowing what it would be, what it would turn into and having really no expectations for it. Right. Like, it's not like we set out to start a business. It was really something we both did for fun and have been really lucky that it's become something we get to do as our work. So I think because of that, we weren't really like setting out to be anything but ourselves on the podcast. So I don't, I don't think our on-air friendship is very different from our offline selves together.
Doree: Yeah. I totally agree with that. I think what you hear on our podcast is pretty is, is like the conversations we would have offline off the air.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, that's how it started essentially was we wanted to have the conversations we were having offline on a podcast cause we weren't really hearing them many places. And so I don't, I mean, I think that's why when, when our listeners feel like they do know us and know our friendship it's because they do link. It's really not much, uh, I would say there's not much difference. It's pretty much the same.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: So thank, thank God they put up with it. Well, Doree, what have been our friendship highs?
Doree: I mean, I think starting the podcast.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, professionally it's been really professionally positive.
Doree: Um, also like even though we never wrote it, I have a lot of fun, like trying to write a screenplay with you.
Kate: Me too. And look, if anyone--
Doree: I forgot, we forgot to mention that part.
Kate: We tried to write a movie and then we were both like, I don't know about this,
But I will tell you, I still think it's a good idea. And I still imagine Chris Evans is the guy in it.
Doree: I know. Yeah. I mean, that, that, that would be great. So that, yeah, that was, that was really fun, I think. Yeah. I think that our friendship and our professional lives are so intertwined that it's hard to kind of separate them.
Kate: Yeah. Which ultimately I hope is okay.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, so far it's been okay.
Kate: It has been okay. And I will say, I, I do get inspiration from a lot of other podcast business relationships that are modeled by other podcasters who are also friends.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Um, because I do think it's possible and same with like writing teams and production partners and stuff like that. I do think it is. Um, it is possible. I'm not sure about lows. I don't personally feel like we've had like a, um, dark night of the soul moment.
Doree: I don't either. I, I can't, I, I truly can't really think of anything.
Kate: I can't either. And again, like there always is a part of me that's like, what's wrong with us. I know. But I also feel like if that does happen or when it does happen, do you think like, we, we both would come to it from a place of trying to work it out. Yeah. Um, like we're definitely workers at the stuff. And I do think, and I do think one thing you've made me better at is like actually addressing, um, like talking about the uncomfortable things because I'm so avoidant and I'm non-confrontational and, um, I can't handle upsetting people, so you're not like that. And so you've both like modeled that. And also I think, feel like helped me kind of have those conversations a little bit more in our friendship and relationships. So I appreciate that.
Doree: Thank you, Kate.
Kate: I mean, I'm trying to think of a low, even a funny low. I truly can't think of one.
Doree: Yeah. I can't either.
Kate: Listen, if we get one, well, we'll let you know.
Doree: Uh, this has been fun. This, I love talking about us.
Kate: Why is this been so enjoyable? Oh, because it's just us reflecting on ourselves. Can I sh, can we answer one more of these questions? Cause I am, I do just want to, I'm really interested in, if you have thoughts on this, does our friendship have any third rails topics you just don't touch with each other? Do we?
Doree: Does it?
Kate: I would say the only thing I'm always like still bashful to talk about is sex, because that is like an ingrained, um, the way I've been brought up to feel about it. And so I'm, I still don't like, it's still like, can't even talk about it that, well,
Doree: Yeah. Really talk about it either. But I don't think I have any friends that I like really talk about it with, do you?
Kate: A little bit. Yeah. I sometimes, and I have in the past, but for some reason, I just like that to me is, is like, when I read your, your book and it was, you know, you, you detail a lot of like your sexcapades. And I was like, oh, I'm only learning about this. Like one side of Doree that I don't know that much about not that it’s taboo for us to talk about. And I love talking about sexuality and intimacy and, and I'm very, open-minded about it, but I, but for some reason, not for some reason, for like the way that I was raised as a human, it's still hard for me to actually like get into.
Doree: I get that.
Kate: So that's my only one I can think of. This has been a pleasure. I'm really, uh, touched that we were invited to share.
Doree: I know me too. Thank you guys so much.
Kate: That means a lot, especially getting to do it on Call Your Girlfriend, which is just such a model of what it means to be in a friendship in a true friendship really.
Doree: Yes.
[interview ends]
Ann: You can find More about Forever35 at forever35podcast.com and thanks to Doree and Kate for sharing so many beautiful stories with us today.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.