Change is Always Coming
10/8/21 - How fixed are we in our ways of being and doing things? We're always confronting change, but how much can we choose it? These are some of the big ideas through small moments Jade Chang tackles in her Audible Original, You've Already Changed Your Life: A Recipe for a Revelation. Jade is a friend of the podcast, deep thinker, and author of the excellent novel, The Wangs vs. The World.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: CHANGE IS ALWAYS COMING
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hey Ann Friedman. What's up this week?
Ann: I'm so excited about today's episode because it feels very classically Phone-a-friend, which like maybe it's worth saying at this point, that way back in the early days of CYG we did regular chatty episodes with the two of us. And then we broke them up with episodes that we called Phone-A-Friends, which were just literally us calling our nearest and dearest. And we've gotten away from that a bit because, um, there were just so many people we want to talk to out in the world. And as the podcast has gotten bigger, like some of them will talk to us, but like today's episode is really a classic Phone-a-friend. I chatted to my excellent pal, Jade Chang, who you might know is the author of the bestselling novel, The Wangs vs The World. She also writes for television. She wrote for the Netflix Babysitters Club show and has a couple of other things coming up. And, um, she's someone who I really think of is not just a close friend, but like a kind of fellow creative traveler, wait a creative fellow traveler. I'm not sure which order to put those in, but she's the kind of person I like find myself getting into these like super deep or like maybe kind of abstract philosophical questions with about like the nature of, you know, what makes us who we are. And like, where do ideas come from? And like, I don't know, like, she's one of those friends where I can just lose hours talking to her. So when I found out she was working on a new audio essay about like how humans make change in their lives, I was like, oh my God, this is the perfect opportunity for you to come on the show.
[theme song]
Ann: The audible essay. I don't even know what to call it. Audio essay, like audible piece? Like, I don't know that we have like a fully agreed upon term for this kind of content yet. But anyway, it is out on Audible now it's called, You've Already Changed Your Life: A Recipe for a Revelation. And in it, Jade has this theory that humans are infinitely adaptable. Like we're changing all the time. And the seeds of personal transformation are sown when we least expect it. So like little moments, little things, we hear that like finally land at the right minute. And then we change ourselves. Um, and not, it's not so much about like, you know, trying to make a big shift, like new year's resolution style. It's more about identifying the small and profound shifts that you've already undergone and retelling the story of your own life to accommodate those shifts. Again, it all sounds very abstract, but I swear to God, this is like a heartfelt deep conversation between between two friends. And I think anyone who's interested in asking the big questions is going to enjoy it. So here I am with one of my favorite big brains, big hearts, Jade Chang.
[interview begins]
Ann: Jade Chang, welcome to the podcast.
Jade: Thank you, Ann Friedman. Very happy to be here.
Ann: Does this satisfy you as much as it satisfies me to refer to your friends by their full name?
Jade: Yes. Why is that? Is it because you feel like this is how I know you fully?
Ann: I like, I just love my friends and it feels good to be like, I'm just going to say your full name. Like, I don't know. Okay. On, I guess, like we don't really have an on topic today, but the, the honest on topic we can get is about this new piece that you wrote and read, correct. Or do you, would you say performed?
Jade: Delivered.
Ann: Delivered, I like that.
Jade: Yes. Felt in the depths of my soul and a mode that wrote and read yes.
Ann: Through your physical instruments. Yeah. So, so this, this piece of writing and this piece of writing that you have also delivered in the form of an Audible Original about whether and how people can change, is that a good summary?
Jade: Yeah. I, you know, I feel like this project is a little hard to summarize. So in a way, this piece was really hard for me to kind of get a handle on, because I knew that I wanted to write about why we're obsessed with change and whether or not we actually can change. I kind of came at it with a theory, which is that if we think about the small things that we've changed in our lives, it can really help us understand how we've shaped ourselves, how we've sort of become the people that we are, how we understand how to walk through the world. And it also helps us continue to change in the future. It came from, um, a Freya project.
Ann: Oh, tell the listeners what the Freya project is because it's great.
Jade: The Freya Project is this storytelling event, essentially. I don't, I don't know if storytelling series.
Ann: Reading series, storytelling event, somewhere between the two.
Jade: Yeah. So they always have a, like a non-profit that they donate the proceeds to, and then they always have a topic that they ask everyone to speak to. And then it's always a really interesting lineup of women. Right. It's always,
Ann: I think it's predominantly women or non-binary folks. I don't, that might not be true. I might've. But, but yes, that is definitely the bent of it.
Jade: Original intent of it. Yeah. Yeah. And so the one that I was invited to do, the topic was starting a new chapter. And I remember thinking about it and thinking about it and thinking about sort of all these giant new chapters that I've started, you know, big moves, big loves, big breakups, things like that. And new, yeah.
Ann: Yeah. New jobs publishing a book, like moving to a new, like even a new part of town.
Jade: But the things that I kind of kept coming back to were just tiny things, like really small moments where someone said something or I saw something and then all of a sudden it just changed the way that I did that. I did life, you know? So, okay. One, I think the---
Ann: Yeah. Give an example.
Jade: This one time in college, upstate New York Cornell university, very cold. Most of the time I was there from Los Angeles only had what we'll call a light spring jacket. My freshman year.
Ann: Devastating.
Jade: It really was my hair. My hair froze more than once, but, but you know, in college, I don't know if you remember, people never wanted to do things alone. Everyone always only wanted to just get large groups of people together all the time. And I remember these people that I was, you know, not that excited about, asked me to do something. I can't remember what it was, but they asked me to make a plan with them. And I didn't have any reason to say no. So I said, yes. I asked a friend of mine who I really did want to hang out with. And she said, no. And I asked her why. And I thought that she was going to say, you know, I have a test to study for, I have other plans. Just some, any, it could have been, it could have been a lie, but it essentially would have kept up the social contract.
Ann: Right. Like one of those harmless social white lines.
Jade: Exactly. But instead she said, because I don't do things I don't want to do. I mean, it was like an explosion in my brain. Like I just could not believe she said it's so straightforwardly without apology that it wasn't, it also wasn't antagonistic. It just was. I don't do things that I don't want to do when I said that during the talk at, at the Freya project, I still remember this it's so it's, it's a very convivial atmosphere. You know, people, people are drinking, people are snacking, but everyone stopped for a moment. There was a collective gasp and I get it because that is how I felt just, oh yeah, you can just not do things you don't want to do. And you can be honest about it. I feel like that moment really kind of changed my life in a lot of ways. And I started about other moments like that. I came up with six of them that ended up being the kind of thing that I read that night. And then I walked away from that feeling like, oh, I think I understand myself a little bit better now.
Ann: Oh, I love writing. Don't you love writing? I'm just like, yes.
Jade: Right. I mean, that is kind of the eternal project, right? Like how do I understand who I am in this world? How do I figure out how to, who I want to be and how I want to kind of find a place here. Yeah.
Ann: Oh. And then you were like, how can I expand on this theory that it was like these little things and not huge moments that are more perceived as being about change that have made me who I am.
Jade: Yes, totally. So I mean, you know, of course, part of it was because I was talking to Audible about what, what we can do together. Let's be honest. That is how many projects come about, but I did, but I told my editor there about this experience about these moments and about how I am just really obsessed with how obsessed we all are with change with whether or not we can change with, you know, the entire self-help industry is built on people wanting to change their lives totally.
Ann: Right. And change their lives themselves. It’s self help.
Jade: Exactly. Self-help, exactly like not having to go through some big program, not having to like hire someone else, but really just being able to do it yourself. I was thinking about it. I just realized, oh, you've already changed your life. Like you've already changed your life so many times.
Ann: It's funny when I was reading, um, because I have not listened yet. Um, but I was, when I was reading this piece, I was thinking about how one of the most profound moments I've ever had with a friend was with one of my oldest friends, Lara Shipley. And I forget the context exactly. In which it came up, but she just pointed out, she was like, oh yeah, you're so different than when we met, you've changed so much really. And it's like…
Jade: Wait, this is so interesting.
Ann: Right. And I think that it was, it was so powerful because obviously yes, at that point we'd known each other for like 20 years. Everybody changes over the course of 20 years. Right. But it was said within the security of a friendship with the sort of implication being, and I still like, what's at the core, it's still like, whatever it makes you, you, that has remained the same. And it was just like, I really think about it a lot when I am being, when I'm fearful of something that's changing in my life or when I'm like, oh, if I switch this narrative, I have about myself to say, I'm actually getting choked up thinking about it. But like just having that simple act, being like, oh yeah, you've changed so much. You're so different than when I first met you and have it be not loaded or negative. Cause I think there's often a negative connotation.
Jade: Yes. Well, I think we have a kind of cultural hangup with authenticity and with this kind of like, be real, just be real man. Right. And that, that somehow implies that you just never change, that you can just never kind of enter into a different phase of your life. But obviously we do that constantly. I don't, well, I think that moment with you and Lara also, it also assumes that all of your changes have been positive.
Ann: Yes and no, I guess right, you're right. I felt it positively. So I didn't feel that she was saying you've changed so much for the negative.
Jade: I mean, why do you think that people often see cha like the idea of personality change, for example, as a negative thing?
Ann: Well, personality is like an interesting way into it because in a way I, I feel like it's not wrong to say that like my personality has changed. Like I'm objectively less grumpy than I was like as a teenager. You know what I mean? Like, I, I am objectively less, like kind of like viscerally angry or like I have different like, yeah. So like, right. I guess my personality has changed. This came up a lot actually, when we were, um, Amina and I were working on Big Friendship, which is that you meet someone at a certain point in time and you forge a connection at a certain point in time. Right. It feels like that kind of static idea of who both parties are, is crucial to maintaining the connection. I think this happens to romantic couples. It happens for sure in families, it happens with friends. And so I think one reason why there's this idea of changing your personality is bad is because it's sort of like, was that a lie before? Is this a real friendship? If all this change has occurred, like is what we have still relevant and real that's part of it. And I think also part of it is like branding culture.
Jade: Right. Like you always have to just present in the same exact way so that people know what to expect and like, know what they're going to buy.
Ann: I like how everybody hates every logo and website redesign.
Jade: Right, right, right.
Ann: They're universally hated always.
Jade: Ah, that's so interesting. But so I feel like if you think about it as okay. Yes. In relationships with other people, we often fear change. If you think about you as having a relationship with yourself, because you know, we are in relationship with ourselves, our entire lives. Yeah. I think often people get scared that they are going to like, not know themselves or something.
Ann: Right. Well, this actually gets to a thing that you write about, which is the ancient Greek Maxim to know thyself. Right? Like, like that being a value, like being really sure and who you are and what you want is also like, I think something that underpins a lot of like self-help or a lot of like ideas about what it means to be like a fully formed human in the world. Like basically just this idea that no, no one is like, huh, Jade doesn't really seem to know herself right now. Like that's never said in a positive way, like, it really is a way we use to kind of tactfully talk about people who are struggling.
Jade: Yes. That's true. But I think there's a difference between knowing yourself and between thinking that who you know yourself as can never, ever change. Right.
Ann: Right. But then like when does that happen? It's never safe to question yourself.
Jade: Right, right. Yeah. Also I think the thing that we should probably say is that I am, you know, by no means an expert in any of this no academic background whatsoever, but have done months of deep research kind of just based on very blown by the winds of whatever interests me, which was very fun. I mean, I think that was kind of the best thing about working on this is that I went in thinking, okay, why are we so obsessed with change? Can people really change? And is there research about whether or not people can really change? And I think thinking about those things took me definitely in directions. That really surprised me, but I think I first thought, okay, what are our kind of like biggest cultural stories about change? And I feel like that whole, you know, Freud says that our personalities don't change after age five, which isn't true.
Ann: Right. But also, you know, being friends with many parents of young children, like I've had so many conversations where people are like, oh, the person you can, this, this kid's personality has been baked in from the start. Like, you know, or like, they've kind of always been like this, even though this kid is already like only six or whatever.
Jade: Well, it's interesting. I feel like there's an essence of who you are and then there's your personality.
Ann: Oh my God. Fascinating.
Jade: Yeah. So I feel like I don't even know how you can really define the essence of who someone is, you know, but I feel like it's kind of like the way, if you see someone, you know, really well from a far, and it's literally just like the angle of their shoulders, like the way that they've just turned their head, like all of those things just is who they are, you know, but if you're talking about like actual the actual science of personality change and it's so nuts, it like is essentially a new field. The first really serious study was in 2015. Wow. Like literally a new field.
Ann: So the study being like about Ken one change one's personality.
Jade: Yeah. So they have, it's all really interesting. So, so basically there's a big five of personality traits. Let me see if I can remember them, uh, agreeableness.
Ann: So like, are you an asshole?
Jade: Yes. Exactly. Openness. So like, do you like new experiences, new people, et cetera, neuroticism.
Ann: Okay. Um, do you stress out a lot?
Jade: Yeah. And then conscientiousness. So whether or not you're earlier, late, things like that, whether you care about your effect on other people and et cetera,
Ann: Which is different than agreeableness and being nice? I guess.
Jade: Yeah. So, and extroversion, which speaks for itself
Ann: Also, it's weird that they're defined by like one word and an amount of it, as opposed to like a kind of, are you extroverted or introverted? Are you agreeable or disagreeable? You know, I don't know. It feels like maybe there'd be, maybe I would set up these five traits differently were I a 2015 researcher.
Jade: I think that the big five, those have been around a little bit longer, but in terms of like whether or not you can actually change, those is definitely like a newer topic. Okay. This is really interesting. So it turns out that you can, spoiler alert--
Ann: You can become more agreeable or less or more neurotic or...
Jade: Yeah so essentially the way they did the study, it was on college students, which obviously.
Ann: It's always on college students. We rejected so much research for Big Friendship because it was college students only. Well, it's just, well, when you're talking about friendship, it's a social context that is not always applicable to adult life. And so, so many studies were just like, not relevant to what we were writing about, but anyway, go on.
Jade: And I think that's true of personality too, right? Because college is such an open time where you're very willing to, you might, you might even have gone in with a whole, with a whole new personality that you're trying out.
Ann: You might've had your mind blown by a woman, you know, being like, no, I don't do things I don't want to do. Yeah.
Jade: Exactly. Change your personality immediately.
Ann: Right. You were like, I am no longer agreeable.
Jade: [laughter] So the way they set up the study is that they gave people tactics for kind of changing in the ways that they want it to change. So these students would start out by rating themselves on a scale for each of these things. And then they would kind of set goals of, you know, whether they wanted to become more open or less neurotic or less open and more neurotic, also, also a possibility. And then the researchers would give them strategies for, you know, things that they could do to try to change these traits.
Ann: I'm already skeptical. I'm like, how do you just do something to become like less of like a nervous Nellie in the world?
Jade: I mean, all social science research, I feel like we can approach with like a raised eyebrow, for sure. I think it was, it was things like, you know, if, if their desire was openness, it was like very much like talk to one extra person. And then here are some ways that you can talk to them.
Ann: Challenge yourself to walk to class a new way, probably stuff like that.
Jade: Exactly. Like very kind of small doable things like that. But also they would sometimes give people prompts for things that they had not said that they wanted to do. And in the end, people only changed in ways that they wanted to change.
Ann: That makes sense.
Jade: Yeah. But also first, really one of the first times it's been kind of like studied in a controlled environment of whether,
Ann: That you have to really want something to make it, to make a change. Hard facts.
Jade: Those, those are the hard facts. There was a part of me that, you know, could have gotten lost in like every single study out there. But I think what was exciting about knowing that was kind of knowing, okay, these, these kind of existing cultural myths that we have against the possibility of change, we can disprove those. You know, we can say that like, actually you can change. It is possible.
Ann: Oprah is wrong. When she says, when someone shows you who they are believe that Oprah is wrong, that's what you're saying.
Jade: I mean.
Ann: Oprah's wrong about a lot of things. That's fine to say that. [laughter]
Jade: But I think, you know, I definitely, I definitely got very interested in kind of digging into all those studies and thinking about the scientific aspect of it. I think, because I wanted to prove to myself that it was possible. You know, I wanted to know that there wasn't some sort of like actual block against us being able to change.
Ann: So to tie it back to that example of the, one of the small moments, it's like, you know, the way, the way that this 2015 research applies is like you had a personality that was like, I'm happy to kind of like subsume my desires to go along with this like social outing, because I can't think of a reason not to. And you found out that someone was not doing that and you were like, I want to change in that direction. And so you became, I forget which of the traits is like about, you know, getting along and following social morals.
Jade: I guess I became less agreeable. Right.
Ann: Which is cool. I mean, I think that like that also kind of that also complicates the idea that these are all positives. Like it's not always positive. It'd be super agreeable. You learned that lesson by F by sort of being like, I want to change in this way and be less agreeable
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Ann: What about other small moments where like this came into play?
Jade: So I think one of the things that was most interesting was looking at just kind of doing that exercise, like thinking about small moments in my life, and it really surprised me, like some of them really surprised me. This one is sort of, um, uh, it seems a little more frivolous at first, but a few years ago I was driving. This was still in the time of those red light tickets in Los Angeles. It was late at night. I was driving. There was a carload of drunk dudes next to me who were like trying to get my attention. And I was speeding away from them. And I went through a red light. And the, one of the things that I loved about that was when you get used to get the ticket in the mail.
Ann: There was the red light camera ticket.
Jade: Exactly. And it took, I think, three photos. And there was a photo of you approaching the light, which is me, like looking off so mad at these guys. And then the next one is a photo of me, like looking up, cause the light flash, so mad, that I'm going to have to pay this ticket. But to the ticket, they were so expensive. It was, I think it was something like $370, which was a lot of money. Yeah. I decided that I was going to contest it. Right. Cause I was like, I can make this judge see that I had no choice, but to run this lights because of rampant misogyny, harassment of women, not even on the street, on their own, but in their cars, their car go arrest them. I go to court. And at that time you had to just kind of wait for your ticket to come up on the docket. So I sat in court for three days, which was really fascinating because you see every single other case come up. One of the cases that I saw was a young guy, probably late teens, early twenties, who had gotten into a pretty serious car accident. And he was embroiled in some sort of dispute with the people who he had hit. And it was clear that he had been in this courtroom multiple times because the judge definitely knew him. There was this one moment where he was kind of frustrated and arguing with the judge and being like, but I've done my part. Like what, why, you know, why is this still happening? The judge really, he was, the judge was probably like an eighties TV judge. I'd say, you know?
Ann: Mustache, very avuncular demeanor.
Jade: Yeah, he really, you could see that he was like, oh, I'm going to not just give you a lesson young man, I'm going to give this courtroom a lesson right now. And I still, I remember I took notes on my, whatever, like court documents, because it really was a good lesson. He kind of cast his eye across the courtroom. And he said, I've been a judge for a long time. I've seen people win settlements. I've seen people lose settlements. You know, I've seen people kind of have to pay very large sums of money in restitution. And I can tell you that that's not what anyone really cares about in the end. Obviously I think they would care about not being paid large sums of money in restitution, but let's just go with his lesson... Um, you know, he says, what anyone really cares about is a sincere apology and not an apology that is just, you know, and I'm sorry for your pain. I'm sorry if you're hurt kind of apology.
Ann: Right? We're all familiar with that kind of responsibility, shirking apology,
Jade: But a real apology where it's clear that the person who has done the wrong has really thought about what they've done has really understood it. And sincerely wants to apologize to the wrong party. I remember at that time feeling, oh yes. Like that. I do care about that and I don't always do that. It does not actually cost me anything emotionally or financially to do that. In fact, it is better for all of us. If I do. I feel like that is something that really has shaped me so much. I think that I really try not to of course, like all people I love to be right. I mean, who doesn’t.
Ann: It's part of my personality.
Jade: Exactly. But I also feel like I consciously try to be okay with being wrong.
Ann: And it's interesting that that was your takeaway from that. Sorry, go on.
Jade: Really wait, what's yours?
Ann: I kind of go to a place that is, I mean, I, your takeaway makes more sense in the context of what we're talking about, which is how did it change your personality or like how, how you operate in the world, which was like, you became someone who was more okay. Being wrong. But it, I hear that example in, all I can think about is, um, bad public apologies for all the times when apology feels like maybe more for the person giving it, rather than the person receiving it, even though they are maybe very, very sincere about wanting to express it. Like, I, it strikes me that like, um, one, one interesting aspect of what you're exploring here is like just how personal it is, like how it lands with you at that time. It was a personality shaping thing for you. Even though I could have been, it might not be memorable.
Jade: Not might, right. Like no one else in that courtroom. I remember that at all that kid might not remember it at all. Um, but no I'm with you. I think that it really like every time someone makes every time a celebrity yes. Puts up a notes app apology. I think of this moment because they are almost always bad. They're almost always not about the celebrity being or whoever it is being wrong. It's about them wanting to not be blamed.
Ann: Right. And so, so for you anyway, you're like I became a person who was more comfortable within myself being wrong after that.
Jade: Yeah, I think so. And was more because it really made me think about the receiver of the wrong, like the receiver of the apology. And I think it was the way that he said that is what he has seen over so many years. That is what people really want. That, that is like the thing that can heal someone I think. And I mean, I don't think I've done that many things that require an apology that would actually heal someone. Well, who knows? Maybe I have.
Ann: No, but I think it is interesting to think about like, yeah, the lesson is not necessarily about apologies. The lesson is about like how you want to relate to the people in your life.
Jade: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think for me, so much of thinking through this was thinking about who we are in relation to each other. Yeah. Because so many of the moments really are kind of moments where I saw myself more clearly or saw it because of how someone who I cared about or respected saw it. Yeah.
Ann: Yeah. More like a lesson in empathy.
Jade: Yeah. I mean,
Ann: I'm not saying you weren't empathetic before, but like maybe you integrated into how you operate in a different way.
Jade: No, I mean, I really think that I did not start out as like a super empathetic person. I don't know. I mean, do you think that you are, I think some people are naturally empathetic. I don't think that I, you know, like at birth was just naturally, like, I think I was naturally agreeable and fun.
Ann: Oh, I love the idea of you being born fun.
Jade: Yes. But not like naturally empathetic.
Ann: I don't know. I mean, I'm having a hard time answering this question and I think this goes to maybe one of the difficulties of thinking about changing ourselves of like, I don't know how to answer that because like, I know how I perceive others to like, like act on their empathy, but, and I, and I know like how I react in varying situations, but it's like hard. It's like, I don't have a barometer for like my internal empathy for a person or a situation versus like, what is your internal process? Like, it's like a hard plate. It's a hard me to like, find a comparison of like, am I an empathetic person? Will like, yeah, I definitely feel a lot of empathy or I try, you know, like when someone cuts me off in traffic and I'm angry, I try to pretend it's a friend of mine having a bad day. Like, I mean, I have empathy practices.
Jade: Yes, yes, no, that exactly is a learned empathy practice as opposed to like just innate.
Ann: Right. It's also self-serving because it keeps my blood pressure down and it allows me to let go of minor grievances,
Jade: Ram into less people on the freeway.
Ann: But, um, but I do think it can be hard. It's like, you know, so much of how we think about ourselves is in relation to others, you know, like, um, we might think that we are sort of like, um, politically radical or centrist depending on the beliefs of the people we're surrounded by. You know? Right. We, we also, like, I think, I think a lot about how, um, people are really different, you know, in different contexts with different people, you know, like my impression of you might be totally different if we were like colleagues 10 years ago. You know what I mean? Like even though the core material is the same. And so, um, I wonder if anything that any of the research you looked at spoke to that, like, it's not just that we change or our personalities are different over time, but like, depending on the context we find ourselves in, I mean, you know, everything from code switching to just like, like falling into old roles with families, you know, anything that involves like highlighting or dredging up different parts of ourselves in different contexts.
Jade: Yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely true, right? Like we were so different and in every iteration, but I guess that my theory was more that how we are with ourselves then reflects outwards, you know, ripples, outwards to how we are in relation with other people.
Ann: How I think of myself locked in a room alone with no one else, like has an outward ripple.
Jade: Whereas thinking about, you know, how you're different in different situations. And that's a little bit more like how the situation impacts you,
Ann: What's the lesson for someone who desires change?
Jade: So I think it's not so much the idea that small moments make for big changes, I think, yes, that is definitely something, especially in our, you know, storytelling based culture where that's definitely something that we're really familiar with. I think it is more that, the idea that thinking about all of the small moments in your life that actually have reverberated and then have made changes that are kind of things that you might tell friends about or things that you, um, kind of think back on and recall as an example for why you are doing something. Um, I think thinking about all of those together, it's almost like a personal theology, you know, it becomes this way of understanding how you've changed throughout your life. And I think it's also speaking of it in terms of relationships. I think it's also a way of thinking about your relationship with yourself, you know, and how you've gotten to kind of know yourself better over the years.
Ann: Right. Accepting the ways you have changed exactly. As opposed to just pushing for a change in the future.
Jade: Right, right, right. So it's not so much like one particular moment. It's not so much like the sort of the lesson of each thing. It's, it's more to me what was interesting and what felt kind of profound, I guess in my own life was when I had the occasion to actually think about them all together. So for that Freya Project thing, I talked about six different moments thinking about them together and realizing, oh, this is actually almost like a value system.
Ann: Looking at the ways that you have sort of changed or the ways that you construct yourself as like telling a narrative about yourself. I think that is easy for you, a brilliant writer, but I wonder, I wonder what you would say. I mean, I do think it's a cultivated practice, right? Like you are someone who, for a living, looks for stories and narrative and things. And so you were able with this like assignment as a great prompt to look at your life and be like, okay, like this is, what's actually made change in my life. Not asking you to fully step into a guru role. I'm wondering if there's a way you can describe...how, how would you describe that to someone who may be like, doesn't have a narrative creating practice?
Jade: Well, first of all, I think everyone does have a narrative practice for their own life. Right? Not everyone is a person who's at the center of the party telling all the stories, but we always tell ourselves stories about our own lives.
Ann: Right. Like I always want to eat dessert first. I always like, you know, do this in romantic relationships or like, I'm the fun friend or I study really hard or whatever. Yeah.
Jade: Yeah. I'm the kind of person who, yes, exactly. Any of these things. But I think one way to think about it is when you are giving advice to a friend, you know, is there a, is there something that you always kind of tell them, is there something that you, that you feel like you see in a certain way that maybe not everyone in your life does? I think that can probably lead to something that would be one of these moments. I don't know. I would kind of push back on the idea that not everyone is a storytelling creature. You know, when you talk to friends who do anything, when they tell you about their day, it's usually in the form of a story, right? Like it very little of it is like this, then this, then this, then this it's always like this. And then I felt like this and then, oh my God, somehow this happened. But I think also another way to kind of think about it, all of these moments kind of had a little like emotional click where it felt like something's sliding into place in a good way. I do feel like that's a good way to kind of look back on moments that are more memorable to you. So it's not just a moment where like, things were super fun or weird or whatever, but more, a moment where you kind of thought like, okay, I understand this in a different way.
Ann: I think that, um, the first example you gave about the woman in college, who was like, I don't do things I don't want to do. I'm just going to bring it back there because I think I often experienced this in terms of, I want that I experienced it as desire. Like not just emotional, but like, you know, there is something that, and you know, I think we've talked about this on the podcast before of like, that's why jealousy is so useful sometimes where it's like, I'm not actually upset with someone or whatever. I just like, oh, what's clicking into places. Like, I think I want for myself that I'm seeing exhibited by someone else.
Jade: Yes. I don't always like, it's one of those. You can't be it until you see it.
Ann: Right. And then you're like, oh, I want to be a person who does that.
Jade: Yeah, exactly. And that was very much it for me. Like I just had not considered that possibility.
Ann: And you think of yourself now as a person who doesn't do things she doesn't want to do.
Jade: Correct. And I think that one, I always go back to that one because it just amazes me how much it continually is relative to other people and how much it is continually relevant. Right. And also just how many things people think they have to do that they don't want to do.
Ann: Yeah. Especially people socialized as women who are sort of pushed to do certain kinds of social performance that might not be a hundred percent essential.
Jade: And to uphold a certain kind of like social contract. And it's not that I think that people should be rude to each other at all. I don't, I think people should be here, you know? Yeah. Kind to each other.
Ann: We're in this rare moment where many of us have experienced like this pandemic, a kind of like, right. You know, I wouldn't say, sorry, we've all experienced a pandemic. We've experienced it in different ways, but there've been a lot of parallels in the experience of kind of like, you know, spending a lot more time at home or in isolation or just with the people we live with. And then there's been this like maybe slightly more of an emergence. So there is an opportunity, a moment that we're all experiencing that like, is sort of like the sitting in front of the judge moment. Maybe I'll like a moment to think about. I mean, I have been prompted, um, there've been a lot of moments I can think about in the past year where I'm like, oh, I wouldn't have known this about myself before. And it wasn't really prompted by something. Someone else said it was often prompted by an absence. Um, I know you were obviously working on this during a pandemic. And so I'm, I'm just wondering how the, the circumstances, the kind of global circumstances of this moment shaped what you wanted to say about.
Jade: So sometime during the pandemic, I read something where someone mentioned, I cannot pinpoint it. I don't remember. It's lost, it's lost. Yeah. It is lost in those sort of endless days of just drowning in sweatshirts. But, um, someone said something about how they were realizing that their relationship with themselves was as important as their relationship with anyone else. And I thought about that a lot. And I feel like, I think everyone thought about that during the pandemic when we really did have to be deeply in relationship with ourselves, but at the same time, I think I, so I wrote this, um, I mostly wrote it kind of October of 2020. And so it was right after a summer of protests, a summer of, and, you know, and also months of thinking about mutual aid, thinking about how deeply in relation we are to each other. And I think it was also, you know, it was, it was a time of kind of realizing that every system that we have is sort of not just, not just that they're broken, but that, that our original conception of them was based on something untrue.
Ann: The very foundations were wrong.
Jade: Yes, exactly. So I think thinking about all of this in a time of so much change, I would say for me, felt really invigorating. You know, it felt, it felt like a time when anything could happen, which was, yeah. But it's like terrifying and full of possibility, I guess,
Ann: Have the events of the past year, roughly speaking, prompted you to change your narrative of self?
Jade: Yeah. Yeah. I think they really have. Living alone during the pandemic definitely has made me think a lot about something that I referenced a little bit earlier, but about the fact that our relationship with ourselves is the longest relationship we have is hopefully the deepest relationship and that it is so important to cultivate that. And I wrote, so I wrote most of this October of 2020, which was kind of one of the darkest times of the pandemic.
Ann: And at least here in our corner of the US yeah.
Jade: Yeah. I was thinking sort of literally the days and the
Ann: Days were getting shorter.
Jade: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ann: But, but also when the ebbs and flows.
Jade: Yeah. Yeah. Well also in the sense that, you know, we kind of came through this, this summer of protest, we then I think a lot of people kind of thought that the pandemic would ease a little bit at that time, but then in fact, our Los Angeles lockdown got more serious, you know, so I think it was kind of an extra solitary time for a lot of people who weren't frontline workers or who weren't, um, you know, working in restaurants or grocery stores. But yeah, so I think writing it in that time really did make me think very much about how thinking of yourself as a kind of a fluid individual with possibilities is so essential at least to me, because that is kind of part of having a lasting and growing relationship with yourself. I mean--
Ann: I think what you just said about recognizing ourselves as fluid individuals feel very positive and empowering to me because, you know, part of the narrative of so many things, be it, um, you know, widespread movements for racial justice or, um, a global pandemic or like all of this big, big stuff we're talking about is like, it's not like there is an end date, you know, and we talk about it like--
Jade: Like, like we'll come to some kind of conclusion.
Ann: Right a big shift moment where we all recognize. And I like, you know, part of the lesson of long range, social justice movements, part of the lesson of long running pandemics is like, there isn't a hard stop just like there wasn't a hard start, you know? Like, and yeah, I mean maybe, I guess you can name some hard starts with this particular pandemic, but for the things that exposed, probably not. And so we're talking about being comfortable with just like, okay, you know, like maybe being locked down in isolated in my home pre vaccination was a specific experience. And I can talk about that and tell you what I learned, but much like the world is not defined by like big changes into a new job or whatever. Um, we cannot like bookend our experiences so cleanly.
Jade: No. I mean, definitely not. You know, I thought about that actually. I thought weirdly about the civil rights movement of the sixties and how we were taught about it as--
Ann: A fixed thing with an date.
Jade: Exactly right. Like, so fixed such an end date. And also that like Martin Luther King made a speech and that changed everything. So that was, yeah, that's all you need. And it is kind of crazy that that is how we are taught about things that we are taught to think about things as just having like boom, giant change, everything done.
Ann: Right. I'm going to do it like a lightening round because this is like, uh, like a phone-a-friend style kind of ask you some quickies, like maybe short answer questions. Before we, before we end, they will not all be like personality reveals. Maybe some of them will. Okay. First question, please give me the general contours of your, for you page on Tik TOK.
Jade: Oh okay.
Ann: What's showing up for you right now?
Jade: Well, since I've spent most of my recent life not posting anything, just, just watching
Ann: The only way passive TikTok is.
Jade: Yes, yes, yes. So many, uh, sketches, right? So many, you just sort of people being funny in different ways. Um, many different Native American songs and dances, lots of sewing reveals, you know, people making a thing out of another thing.
Ann: I gotta get on that TikTok.
Jade: Oh, it's so great. And a lot of did, you know, um, you know, very into did, you know, tic talk and you know, how we, and we have definitely talked about this, about how
Ann: We only talk about Tiktok spoiler alert.
Jade: We talk about TikTok a lot, but you know, sometimes people get on TikTok and then they're like, I don't know. It's only like people trying to look hot and do dances. And then I always say, well, I mean, that's your algorithm, right? Those are the things that clearly you're interested in, even though you're pretending that you're not. But I do feel a little bit like my TikTok now does not have enough people trying to look hot.
Ann: Oh you one more hotties?
Jade: A little bit, a little bit more.
Ann: Amazing, like, like how do you want to change your Tik Tok personality, more hotties. I love it. Okay. Um, the last book you read that you like thought about a whole lot or recommended to a lot of people.
Jade: Oh I just read The Library at Mount Char, which is kind of outside of my usual reading world in that it's kind of scary. It is so hard to explain, but it's kind of, I think they call it urban fantasy where basically it's like real world, but then fantasy things happen. I loved it. I really recommend it.
Ann: You’ve definitely have already recommended it to me. So I know that's true.
Jade: Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I have.
Ann: Favorite snack.
Jade: Ann, I know I'm in, I love all snacks. I know, but like I want to eat them all.
Ann: It's like kind of like last snack meal on earth, like what's on the buffet kind of thing.
Jade: I mean, probably my actual favorite snack is not a Cheeto, but in a like kind of natural version of a Cheeto that is still very Cheeto-y.
Ann: A Pirate's booty?
Jade: No.
Ann: Help me get closer.
Jade: More like a Barbara's cheese curl. I think that's, I think that's what they're called. That's the brand. I know.
Ann: That's definitely a thing.
Jade: Yeah, yeah. Or I am also a fan of the Trader Joe's version of the Cheeto.
Ann: Baths or showers.
Jade: Fan of both. Ann, you've changed my bathing life actually.
Ann: Tell me more.
Jade: Well, okay. Showers because I have excellent, excellent water pressure, which I feel like a rare gift. Yeah. Total full brag. But also, you know, usually in baths, the bath water always drains out, but Ann introduced me to this little plastic thing that you can like a little section cup that you can put over that train edge. And it changes everything.
Ann: The true story is that device was recommended to me by one Aminatou Sow, and I passed it along to you, which is like--
Jade: Oh My God, I really have Call Your Girlfriend to thank.
Ann: I know she changed my life and then I could change yours.
Jade: Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I would say that that has probably changed me more than any of those dumb moments that we just talked about. [laughter]
Ann: One $5 suction cup thing. Oh, change your whole personality. I love it. Um, thank you for being on the podcast.
Jade: Thank you for having me, such a pleasure.
[Interview ends]
Ann: You can listen to Jade's audio essay, You've Already Changed Your Life: A Recipe for a Revelation at Audible. It's an Audible Original, and you can find her novel, The Wangs vs The World, which is amazing, anywhere you buy books.
Aminatou: I will see you on the internet, my love.
Ann: I'll see you on the internet.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.