Hot Vax Summer of Friendship
7/2/21 - Aminatou and Ann's book Big Friendship is available in paperback July 6, so to celebrate we're doing our second Summer of Friendship series. We catch up and kick off chatting through our recent forays back into the world, which friends we're seeing, how we work through the emotional distance with close friends and acquaintances, and how we're approaching boundaries and travel while it seems possible.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Big Friendship is available July 6, 2021 from Bookshop.org | Indiebound | B&N | Amazon | BAM | Target | Signed copies available at Books Are Magic | McNally Jackson | The Strand
TRANSCRIPT: HOT VAX SUMMER OF FRIENDSHIP
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hello. Hey, bestie [laughter] tell em, I'm watching a lot of Tiktok. I love when the Gen Z kids call each other bestie, it always makes me laugh so hard.
Ann: I mean, it's, it really is. I know we spent a lot of time and energy explaining why that term is not one we always want to use for each other, but it's like, it kind of falls into the pet name category where I'm like, no, like this is not the academic term for the friendship we have, but like, it is a really cute, like greeting to use with each other.
Aminatou: I'm so into it. And I love using it also with like, um, all of my friend's kids and they always look at me like I'm such a wild person when I do that, I'm always like, Hey bestie. And then the seven-year-olds are like, what is wrong with her? And I was like, listen, I'm blessed.
Ann: Oh my god. Truly though like a seven year old, like that bestie is the appropriate term for a seven year old. You're really tight with.
Aminatou: It’s true. I am, my very young friends truly. Um, not that we should be picking favorites, but my very young friends are some of my favorite humans right now. They are really have come through.
Ann: Oh my God. Okay. Wait. So I feel like we're getting ahead of ourselves, um, with the announcement that this is the kickoff episode for our second annual Summer of Friendship. Hello?
Aminatou: Aminatou Sow getting ahead of herself? Never. Impossible.
Ann: Impossible. Now we're ahead of you. You were more ahead of yourself.
[theme song]
Aminatou: Um, yeah, our little book, baby, Big Friendship. The paperback is out on July 6th. Can you believe it, it's been basically a year?
Ann: Yeah, our book baby is one. I mean, I feel like the paperback coming out is like the book equivalent of like transitioning to solid foods or something like, okay, like this is like the form that this book is going to be in for the long haul. Like now our book can finally be an airport now that it's out in paperback. Like that's how I feel about it.
Aminatou: Wow. If anybody from our publisher is listening to this, um, please stock our books and airports. That would make me really happy.
Ann: So, yeah. Okay. Wait. So this episode is out on Friday and like right, Tuesday, mere days from when you were listening to this July sixth, the paperback of big friendship is available everywhere. And like, can we just have a moment to talk about how cute this paperback is? Because like, I am really excited about it.
Aminatou: Not to say bad things about, uh, our hard back, but you and I are both paperback people. Like we are just paperback people. There is a reason that our hardcover did not have a dust jacket because we don't believe in dust jackets. They're a waste of time. Um, and honestly, like we loved working with Elizabeth Spiridakis-Olson. Like she's an amazing designer. She's a great pal to us. And it was nice to like work with her on a design story, you know, for the hardcover and then this. And like, it's just so fun. And there is this like die cut element that is to die for. And I've been sticking pictures of like all of my friends in the die cut and it's making me very happy.
Ann: Yeah. So there's like this little circle hole cut into the paperback cover and then like our kind of colored layer behind it. And in between those two layers, you can totally slip a photo of you and your friend. And I have to say it's like the perfect size actually for a photo booth photo, because like, there are many, many, many pictures of you and me, but there are actually not that many in which our heads are like tiny enough and close enough together to like be perfect for this cutout. So part of our agenda, when we see each other in person to celebrate this paperback is to take a photo booth photo so that we can use this paper back cut out the way it was, the way god has intended.
Aminatou: I know it's so wild that we don't have that many photo booth photos considering the era in which we became friends, you know? Right. That was such a, like every bar had one of those, but I guess DC bars did not really have them, but I felt like we always got in them anytime we were out of town.
Ann: I know I also had this kind of false memory that like, there were all these photo booth strips of you and me, like somewhere in like the dusty boxes where I keep my like physical papers and, uh, could not find any. So, you know, we are going to have to do some research about where in like the greater New York tri-state area, we can find a decent photo booth because guess what? Also we are about to see each other in person. Like for more than a moment.
Aminatou: I mean, yes. In the flash, we saw each other briefly in the pandemic and truly, it felt like a fever dream. I'm just like, I'm going to see you for like many moments on the same couch as you eat the same meal. I'm very excited about this.
Ann: I mean, this is a thing that, um, you know, I mean, I know there's a lot of stuff in our book where we're like, listen, we're not representative, friendships happen differently. Like, we're not like the kind of baseline case study, but like when it comes to seeing someone who you care about so much and have missed desperately in the pandemic, um, like around this time we are kind of an American average in that way. Like I feel like right now is a moment when whatever, a few weeks leeway on either side, but like people are starting to be able to because of like vaccination and because of like lots of other privileges, ie. like we are all still like alive and kicking on this planet, like are able to see each other are able to finally reconnect after like this period where friendship had to happen over screens or over the phone. And like, whew, I I'm feeling lots of feelings about it. I feel really good about it.
Aminatou: I know, I feel a lot of feelings like the simultaneous, like, feeling so good about it. And also just, just really struck by how lucky and how privileged we are. And also, um, like a sense of nervousness. I think I haven't had in awhile, that's been, all of my reopening feelings is nervous, but good nervous, not like bad nervous.
Ann: It's funny because, um, I was, I was reflecting on this and it's not, it's not so much that I feel nervous, but like, I think I have this sense of like really wanting to make the most of, or feeling really precious about my friendships. I went a couple of weekends ago on this like big group camping trip and like let's table my feelings about camping because I have nothing positive to say.
Aminatou: Wow Ann, we really have come through a pandemic. You went camping with people? Wow.
Ann: Well let me tell you. A friend planned this at an earlier era of the pandemic. When it seemed like maybe it would be a kind of safer way to gather. Like, it's like, we can be separate, but like sort of near each other outside like that, that was the impetus. But then it ended up, but by the time the trip rolled around, like, it was safer for all of us vaccinated people to be together indoors. And so anyway, but the trip carried on, um, again, not going to like, you know, absolutely slam people who like to sleep on the ground by choice. Like people who enjoy getting beaten up by bugs, cool story, live your truth. Um, but like for me, the real draw was like, okay, like a lot of them unbroken hours with people, like, you know, staying overnight in the same place as friends felt like so precious and amazing. Um, because I have had this feeling of like, okay, the hour I spent on a walk with a friend, or like the, the like very distant outdoor meal that we shared just was like, not enough time. Like my, my friendship well has been so depleted in the pandemic that I'm like desperate. And so the promise of like, go stay overnight near your friends who you've missed was like just impossible to pass up. Just I would, I would, I would camp again for the same opportunity. Like I'm shocked to reveal to you.
Aminatou: If, um, if podcasting is still a technology that exists in a hundred years and someone is listening to this, I need you to understand how bad the 2020 pandemic was that I made my friend Ann Friedman go camping. Like that's how dangerous it was. It was so bad that in order to see each other safely outside, she had to go camp. Like this is, millions of people have died and it was a terrible time, but I cannot overstate how much this camping details should like, tell you the horror for the moment that we're living in.
Ann: Here's why, here's why I bring this up. So like, I actually did not want to just complain about camping. I had like a real, I had a real reason for, for invoking this trip because, um, the friend who planned it, like she sort of has like a couple of different wings of her friend group as many of us do. And like, I know all of the friends in law, like the, the, her kind of like other friend group, I am, I have known them for a long time. I'm very like, they're very friendly acquaintance types. And then, um, and then there's also the people who I'm like a bit closer to who are like, in my wing of like her friend group and at an earlier time, like maybe pre pandemic, I would have also spent a lot of time with the friends in-law. Like just being like, Hey, like what's up. I don't see you all that often. How's it going? And something about the timing of this trip, happening when I felt like such scarcity and depletion, like when it came to the friendships that like, are very, very close to me, I like didn't even have it in me to go to chat with the friends in-law. I was like, all I want to do is sit here and soak up my nearest and dearest for as many hours as possible. And I felt kind of bad about it. Like I was being anti-social and like, not seeing everyone who was there, but I think it really speaks to something that's happening for me, which is just like also why I'm so excited to come see you. I'm just like more hours please, like fill up my friendship, bucket everyone.
Aminatou: Oh my God. Do I have a friendship water for you so much?
Ann: I love it. I mean, you always feel my okay. But like, I'm just saying, like, I am really in this like hungry, desperate place where I just, I am obsessed with spending hours around my friends.
Aminatou: Yeah. I have like, you know, I've been going through the up and down of, um, mental health, like madness, and I've had some, like, really terrible downtimes in the pandemic, including like very recently where I hit a wall where I was like, wow, like didn't know, there was a new bottom that we could hit. Um, but you know, um, mental illness, a surprise every single time. Um, but all of this to say that I am really pleasantly surprised at how, just in a good mood I am recently. And so much of that correlates with like seeing people I hadn't seen in a long time. Like some of it is obviously that my brain chemistry is just back. It's like my brain chemistry is back. Um, um, running has been really fun, my least favorite thing to do becoming the thing that gives me, um, really gives me like, uh, like the will to live is also hilarious. Um, because as you know, exercise works, but it's a full pyramid scheme. And so, but I really believe in it as like mood management. Um, but even my therapist like said to me this week, he was like, wow, you, he was like, something has changed. This is my new therapist that like, we met in the pandemic and, and it was like really fantastic to just be like, hi, this is myself that you don't know, like, I'm back, like, she's back. This is the self that you don't know, like full frenetic energy, like so happy to be alive. So happy to be here. So happy to be among people that I love. And it's, and when I was telling you that, that nervous feeling, I really feel that like every day, it's almost like, um, it's like that energy when you're going on a first date with someone like my, anytime I go meet someone, like all of the clothes are on the floor, like, what am I going to have here? Like, it's so it's so frenetic. And it's really giving me like 24 year old, like going to meet someone at a bar that you don't know is a restaurant, you know, like, is it a restaurant? Is it a bar? Like, are we going to make out, are we not? You know, and also like, do I look cute? Do I not look cute? Like, does this look good and go from day to night or whatever? Yeah. I have those like butterflies, like I've never had an, um, that I haven't had in so long. And it really is like new relationship energy, except with people I already know, and just like seeing, I'm like, I want to look cute for my friends. I want to dress for them. I want to be, you know, like, I don't want to be, um, Jeb Bush, low energy, but it's been so nice and randomly I've had like so many friends in town and it's also been nice, just like collapsing all of the friend group. Like I, um, I'm really back on my, like, everyone must meet each other. And I feel like the last time I really did, that was a couple of years ago. Kind of like with you, with the college friends and everyone. And I was like that, like that phase is back again, where I was like, everyone must meet in the pandemic and they must, um, collapse into like one, one crew. But yeah, I've been, I've been fully been living kind of like a like college student energy where like three nights in a row. I came home at like 7:00 AM and I was like, that is wild. And, um, and it's just been really fun. It's to see old friends, it's fun to see new friends. It is intoxicating to see friends who don't know each other exchanging phone numbers. I also had this like really wonderful night where I went to dinner with two pals, and then we called another pal who was like available and showed up, which was like, wow, like none of us are in the borough that we live in. So like, this is a commitment. And then we were walking down the street to meet someone else. And we ran into like all of these people that we knew in like on the sidewalk of a restaurant, like between three of us, we knew every single person at this bar and or this restaurant rather on the sidewalk. And I was like, wow, New York is back and I am back. Like, I just, I, I just, I don't know Ann, it's been, um, it's been really fun.
Ann: I love hearing you say that. Like, I, I had, um, I had dinner with a friend on Friday and like, she was, she was saying something really similar of like how she feels like herself for the first time in months and months and months. And I don't know, I feel that for myself too. I mean, I, um, I, as, you know, identify as like a strong extrovert and like, I think I've really put some precise meaning around what that means for me. And like, for me, it's not like, um, I'm at parties all the time. I mean, like I do not know the last time I was awake until 7:00 AM. I definitely have not had those nights lately, but like, for me, it's like, I understand myself best and I feel most connected to myself when I'm surrounded by other people often like people who, and not just like a big group of strangers, but like, you know, the idea of kind of like intellectually, an in-person bumping into my friends and the people who like both know me and challenge me, people who are like presenting fresh ideas and also like, like prompting me to express things that I didn't even know I was thinking about. Like, I have really missed having that drawn out of me and like, you know, you and I are old hands at doing long distance. Like obviously I was on the phone with people a lot in the pandemic. And I like, you know, had my period of zoom dates and game nights. And like, you know, all those things that we all did to get by, but I am, I'm really realizing how much my identity and sense of self is reliant on like sharing the company of the people I love, like in person. And, um, and that, that thing that you said about like, feeling like you're really back to yourself is also a way I feel like I also feel like I'm like, I have a body again, I am back to like experiencing myself in a real way. Like, it's almost like I was like in a deprivation tank or something. [laughter] And I'm like, where does my, where does my body end and begin? Like what, how do I interact with the world? I was like, I felt like I had like, no ideas. And like, I, I also like, you know, like, it's, it's obviously like different for you and me are different for everyone individually. But like, I also had my, like, really dark moments at the pandemic where like, when I think back I'm like, like, that is how it felt like total, like sensory deprivation, not by choice, like not in a relaxing way. And I'm just like, I feel like my senses are rushing back. Like that's what's happening.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean, it's so funny to hear you say that, you know, um, there were some things that were obviously hard in the pandemic and, um, obviously like mental health, like a hundred percent, one of them, but for me, like I, um, I am not an extrovert. Um, I'm very good with people. I'm very social. I talk a lot, I fool everyone, but, um, I do not get my energy from people at all. I only get my energy from myself. And in fact, I need a lot of alone time, which is the, it's the heart of the darkness of anybody who loves me is how much alone time I need. But, um [laughter]
Ann: The rejection of you needing to be alone. [laughter]
Aminatou: And I'm like, listen, I love you, but I've chosen darkness. Um, and aloneness. Um, and honestly I do it for the both of us, but I, you know, like, and I think like, it's why I've been so surprised at how much I like that was not hard for me at all in the pandemic, but like inside cat life with three people that you see secretly. And I feel really ashamed saying this because there was so much suffering in the pandemic for me, that was not a nexus of my suffering at all, you know? And I, and it's something that I felt, um, it's been really hard to watch, like people that I love just really kind of be driven, like to madness almost by having to be just by themselves. Whereas like, for me, I was like, wow, like if I could have a hundred more days of this without the dread and without the, you know, like everything that COVID comes with for me, I would take it, you know, I don't wish it on anyone else. And so it's why I've been so pleasantly surprised at just like my stamina and my energy and my wanting to be around people. And, uh, you know, and I think I also, like one of the nervousness that I had that was not a good kind of nervousness is that there are definitely like, you know, the, the big friends and the close friends, I was feeling like, secure about like, okay, how are we going to navigate, like the distant, the emotional distance and the, um, and the physical distance? Like, how can we navigate that? Even for like big friends that I feel that, you know, there's been like such a gap. And our collective stretch has just been really hard. I feel equipped to be like, okay, like we've had a hard year. How do we reset a nervousness that I had was like a, how do you do that with like, acquaintances and like casual friends? And, you know, like the people that I only see at fashion parties, but like the downtown friends that like, you know, the travel friends, the whatever, where I was really feeling the sense of like, almost like I had abandoned a lot of people, um, you know, because everyone had to go inside with kind of their, like, uh, whoever was in your emotional bunker was who was in your emotional bunker. And it's been really hard to, to recreate these like, moments of just like casual connection. And I think that running into so many of those people recently, like what a thrill it is to be on a sidewalk and someone, you know, like no mask, like someone recognizes you and you recognize them. I'm like, wow. Like, you know, and, and for, with some of those people, I was like, okay, like, nothing, like, we can go back to the rhythm that we used to have, and there's no hard feelings and there's no, you know, and, and in some cases, actually, with some of those friends, I was like, oh, we were actually able to go deeper because there was just an acknowledgement of like, hi, we don't actually spend a lot of time together, but I have been thinking about you for awhile, you know, or, or like hearing, like I had a, um, someone who I'm very fond of who I almost never spent, actually, not almost never, I have never spent time alone with this person because we know each other kind of like in a group. And we decided to have a one-on-one for the first time. And this is someone that I like casually text with. I see them a lot. And we got together and we were both able to like, say something that was like true and personal about us. And I was just, I just remember being like, wow, like I know that everyone says that the conventional wisdom is that the older you get the harder it is to make friends, like I get it. Um, it's hard to just like make room for people and all that stuff, but people will surprise you if you let them. And you should also surprise yourself a little bit. Like I just, I thought it was such a sweet moment and I really appreciate this person so much. And I've just been thinking about them a lot, where I was like, wow, like you've had a lot, a hard, you've had a hardier I've had already are, but more importantly, I've known you for like four or five years, but we didn't really know anything intimate about each other. And now we like hold some intimacy. And that was also nice. So I don't know. I'm also, um, you know, me, um, I don't suffer FOMO at all. Like I am fully, um, I am fully a JOMO, joy of missing out. Nothing makes me happier than an event that I'm not at, that two people I love are out and they send me a picture, like nothing. Like, that's my truly, like, that's my heroin. I'm like the hit of that is so sweet. And I'm like, and I don't even have to be there. Thank you. Um, but there has been something like, really sweet about just like being among the people. And so I'm faking FOMO, even though I don't feel it at all, but I feel like all of my socializing is to prevent a kind of FOMO that I don't have at all. Um, but I don't know. It's just, um, it's been, it's been like really nice to connect with people and to hear about how life has been tough for them. And also a reminder that we're not out of the woods, you know, I'm like Delta variant. If you're hearing this, please, I don't think Ann can handle camping one more time. So please stay, stay wherever you're at. Um, human connection, man. I know it sounds really cheesy. Like it's all, you know, like the things that people who go to like professional conferences or whatever, all of those, like cheesy, like kind of like team building activities or whatever, the thing that they're trying to simulate that we always like roll our eyes about. I was like, uh, turns out actually that physically being present with other people that you make time and space for is very important.
Ann: Right, okay. We have to take a quick break and then I want to keep talking about this. Like, like, are we back what is happening now that we're back. And also like the versions of ourselves and our friends that have emerged or starting to emerge. Um, now that we're in this, like at least you and me and our friends in this kind of slightly different vaccinated.
[ads]
Ann: So you invoked the Delta variant. I have to tell you…
Aminatou: If you say it one more time and you'll conjure it no more.
Ann: Listen, I didn't play that game at sleepovers as a child, and I'm not playing it as an adult. I don't believe that, but I do believe that sort of like the thing I was saying earlier about this, like this sort of preciousness of the time, I feel with my, with my close friends, I, I really have this sense of like, wanting to see the people who I've missed, like right now in case this is a narrower window of opportunity. Like not saying it will be, I mean look, like all of life is a narrow opportunity because none of us knows when we're going to die. Like that is true. Um, but I, I really like thinking about my summer in like, you know, I have a friend, my dear friend of mine from home, who's been vaccinated a long time because she's an essential worker came to visit me. Um, I'm about to see you for like a really solid visit and like other, like super close friends who live in New York. I am planning trips to see like my other nearest and dearest, like, you know, August like really not, I don't know. Like, I can't really relate, although I respect like people who want to do tourism right now, like for me, I'm just sort of like, I got to spend this time, like seeing in person, the people who I have missed.
Aminatou: Right. Emotion, emotional tourism, tourism, tourism. Yep. I hear you.
Ann: Yes, fully. Like, I want to see you, like, you know, there are like whole children that are like different children in my life who I'm like, I need to be there because I'm like, I don't even know what books you're into right now. You know? Like, like I really am feeling like I need to show up and be present for, um, you know, like my, my most important people. And like, it's interesting, like hearing you talk about like the joys of kind of rediscovering acquaintances or maybe those looser friendship ties, the little friends, if you will, not big friends. Um, and I, I just, I wonder if I'll get there, like, it sounds exciting to hear you say that, but I am weirdly like, still in this place of like, okay, it's almost like secure your oxygen mask first. And then, then I'm like, and then the next tier around you. And then like, maybe after that, but like, I, it's not, it's not even about like, um, that I have an anxiety around seeing those people. It's just like, my priorities feel really clear right now. And that is something that I feel good about. I'm like, I kind of know the people and the experiences that I am really eager to prioritize.
Aminatou: Yeah. I hear you on prioritizing. And I think that, um, you know, I have the same kind of like mindset when it comes to risk-taking because I know that you were someone who took COVID incredibly seriously. And I, you know, like I, um, I feel the same way about myself and it, it's interesting to go from like full lockdown. Like truly only seeing like two people, like never inside to like this, this level of like, feeling very, like, I feel very safe being, um, indoors with friends who are vaccinated outdoors, like unmasked with like most people, you know what I mean? And, and I'm like really trying to temper that with the fact that like the WHO guidance from this morning, for example, it's not vaccinated, but it's like vaccinated people should continue wearing masks. Um, even though our own CDC has very much relaxed the, the advice on ma mask wearing, and I'm not saying that the CDC is like better or worse than the WHO, if anything, we have learned that, um, nobody is in charge and, uh, you know, there's been very bad comms around COVID, but I guess like my point is to say that something that is different 18 months or however long we've been in this, has it been 15 months? Like, whatever it is that is different is that now everyone has a different matrix for like, risk-taking, you know, like at the beginning, you're like truly could not. Um, in the beginning I was as conservative as you could be, because I was like, I've never been through this before, so I don't know what works or not. And really like, um, and I remember looking at people who were like the people who were going on walks and the, whatever, the people that like everyone was scolding. I remember looking at them, not wanting to scold them, but truly befuddled, like, wow, like you feel, wow, okay. Like you, like, you're brave to do this. And I think everyone just takes risks in a different way, but something I know that has shifted for me is that I'm now in a place where it's like, okay, I'm trying to temper, like being safe with seeing people that I love. And also like, truly understanding that even probably within mere days of recording, like maybe by the time this podcast airs, we will be back in a full lockdown, like who knows, like certainly other countries are where I feel okay with taking the risk of like having a little bit of a social life right now, because I, I need it for like mental health. I need it because we don't know what the future holds. And it's been such an interesting, also a way to navigate that. Because again, like everyone's like personal situation, like comes into the, in, into the frame. Like for me, I was like, I'm happy to do that because I don't really have kids and I live alone mostly. So it's an easier risk to take for one person. And everyone kind of has to navigate it in their own way, but I'm really finding, at least like in my friend group here, like a sense of it's a little bit easier to talk through some of this stuff than it was like 15 months ago when we were all freaking out, you know? And every, it's like, anything you said was like, are you trying to bring COVID in our house? And, and I think that, that makes me feel hopeful about the future. Also, even though I'm like, well, we don't know where we're going to be at pandemic wise. I feel like, um, I cannot speak for the rest of the world, but I feel that in my own interpersonal relationships, a sense of like, okay, like we have a little bit better muscle for how we are going to navigate this together than we did when it first hit.
Ann: I love that you invoke muscle because like one thing that we wrote about in the book that I am, I remain convinced could have been the entire book is about stretching and like how friends find empathy and ways of staying close, even when like their circumstances are really different. And I've been thinking about that a lot in the pandemic, like not only the, the pandemic itself as a stretch, like, as you say, people reacting differently about like their needs and what makes them feel safe and like what they need to do as like caregivers or for their own health or all of these factors. We've all been waiting for years or years, 15 months. I'm like years and years, it feels like forever. Um, but there's also like all of this stuff that isn't literally about pandemic health and safety that the pandemic has surfaced, which is to say, like, we all have more information now about like, whose parents have a vacation home that they could go away to, or about who can afford a pod helper for their children, or about like, who is willing to take travel risks and can afford to do that in a pandemic. And who is like really, really financially struggling. Like it's kind of surfaced other things that like, maybe we chose not to talk about or didn't know about as like gaps or differences in our friendships. And, um, you know, I, it's interesting because like, for me, I, some of that stuff, at least at this point is still maybe kind of in the background a little bit, like where I'm like, okay, like there are friends who, I know we have these differences, but we haven't really connected in person again. And so we're still selecting what we're going to keep in touch about, even if I have this additional info about you. And I think as I start to be out in the world a little bit more, and like, it becomes more of a prospect of like spending more hours in person with someone who I maybe haven't engaged with that much, these questions of like, oh, maybe our values aren't what we thought they were. Or maybe we don't have these points of similarities that I thought we did. I think become more present in conversation, like harder, harder to avoid. And it, it really strikes me as, um, this potential make or break moment, you know, like not the pandemic itself, but like this fallout where we all have this new info of like, okay, like what are you going to do with that? Are you going to talk about it? Are you going to be the one to bring it up? Are you, um, are you going to be the one to say how you feel about that? Or are you just going to let it kind of simmer in the background and like, let it affect the friendship, but not really take control of how it does. Um, I've been reflecting on that a lot lately, too.
Aminatou: Yeah. I've also just been reflecting so much on like the, kind of the conflict I've had with friends in the pandemic that was pandemic related because some of it was like, definitely like needed to have it because, um, it was never about COVID. It was completely about boundaries and about consent, you know, and, and again, I was like, going through this will make us better. Um, it'll make us better to each other. We will have better sex. We will have better intimacy. We will have better dinner parties. We will have like all the things, because it's never, for me, at least like, it was never about getting sick or not. It is mostly like, how are we talking to each other? How are we navigating risks? And how are we respecting each other's boundaries? And there were really instances of like, you know, and like, you know, we're like, we’re vagina monologues feminists. [laughter] I know that's what a cool thing to say, but that's literally our era. Like, you know, like there are things where I'm just like, whatever, like we've done that, not like I know how to talk about this. That I was really struck by like how hard it was, where I was like, wow, like I can talk about money. I can talk about sex. I can talk about so many things in a way that really I'm really stretched by saying like, okay, here is my kind of like COVID hygiene. Does it line up with your COVID hygiene? Um, I was really, it was like interesting to me, especially with like some really progressive friends, how, like, you know, you think that you're really good at what kind of conversation and actually it was not translating in the other kind of conversation. And so that I've also just been thinking about, and then there's also just the, like my annoyance that like, you know, like the scolds and the people who were mad at the scolds and then the, the people who just love to be scolded. And then just how like, childish, some of that became, when actually this was a conversation about how are we being kind and good to each other. So I'm thinking about that a lot, because there are definitely like some offenses where I'm like, nobody close to me, but they're definitely like some people where it was like, Hmm, yeah. Like we're, um, like our relationship will not bounce back from like some of like COVID behavior, you know, that has less to do with like, was COVID introduced or not in the friendship and more about like, oh yeah, we don't know how to like, talk about this really hard thing. And it's going to have repercussions for other things. What a weird time to be alive? Like so many things I don't want to revisit. Like, I don't, you know, I'm like, I'm not interested in like, hearing how everyone's pandemic has been, which is, what's been so nice about seeing people. Nobody is doing like this season on Amina. Like that's not what's happening. It truly is like, tell me what's what's happening with you. But at the same time, it's been such an eye opening moment and okay. Like so much of the social contract is how do we keep each other happy and alive? And, um, and I am really aware at the places that I'm good at doing that and the places where I really fail.
Ann: Hmm. Yeah. I feel like I've really learned a lot about like how my friends processed difficulty and like trauma and what makes them feel safe. And like, some of that has been in really explicit, like conversations or observations about like how people are handling health and safety. But like also some of that has been about like, you know, the ways people are approaching this kind of like, like post vax, like slightly more open period where I'm like, oh, like, like, you know, people who I've known for a long time, I'm just like, oh right, like this trait I observed in your personality, like maybe you didn't love germs before, but like now I'm seeing that you are still wiping down your groceries. And I actually know that you and I both know that that's like, probably not necessary for your health and safety, but like, your brain is like doing a thing to keep you safe. And that is like about your mental health. And like, what does that tell me? Like, it's been, it's been actually, like, I don't want to say it's been like a gift. I don't want to use any language like that.
Aminatou: No. It's definitely not been a blessing.
Ann: But I am, I will say this. I appreciate like having this kind of depth of knowledge about how some of my friends react to difficulty and adversity, especially when their friends who I haven't known through a major grief before or something like that. And I think, um, you know, there is, you know, speaking of stretching, it's like, right. Like once you know how to work that muscle, like you can use it in other contexts. And I think I do appreciate, um, having more info about how some of my friends, like, like need and want to be supported when times get tough and also an info about myself. Like, you know, how, how I need to be supported when things get, when things get difficult for me, I think that, um, you know, like that is that's information. That's always changing. You know, the kind of support you may have needed 10 years ago from your friends might be really different than what you need now. And I, I, I really am thinking that, like I have some up to the minute info about the ways that like, um, you know, the people I care about most, uh, need me and I need them.
Aminatou: Yeah. I hear you on that. I think, you know, another thing that was like really true for me and maybe, um, definitely true in my experience in New York and hopefully like this is reflective for a lot of people, is that it was also actually a really, um, it was a really difficult time, but it was a really lovely time to get to know your neighbors. Like I have made some like very loose, small connections, whether they were in my neighborhood or just in the city or the people who smile at you at the park, the extra person, you know, who has an extra mask for you, the person who like, um, you know, helps me navigate the subway, the, just these like really small moments of, you know, or even like my, my dental hygienist who is an icon like these, just these really small moments of like talking to strangers, um, that I am not someone who talks to strangers at all. And, uh, and I'm really, I was like, I'm fully like never going through life, never doing that again, because just I've had like really sweet moments of intersecting with someone for a really small amount of time in really trying moments where, um, the other human always impressed me. I was like, man, like, again, let people surprise you. A lot of people are jerks, but a lot of people are not jerks. And it's been, um, in fact, like one of my neighbors of the entire pandemic, I have only known him with a mask. I saw him without a mask last week. And I was like, wow, this is what you look like. This is amazing. Meeting, you know, it's like, um, there's only ever two reactions when the mask goes off, it's always like, wow, hotter than I thought, or like, hmm interesting. Um, and I, but you know, even something like that is so thrilling, but I have to say that, um, for people who live in cities, at least, uh, you know, part of living in a city really is just hurdling into each other all the time. But I really hope for everyone who lives in a big city, that you really got to know your neighbors, because it was a very special time. It's a very special time. I'm not talking about it. Like it's gone, we're still living in it.
Ann: Right. So, right um, okay. So speaking of getting to know people, do you feel differently about yourself and your relationship with yourself, um, and your self knowledge and all of that? Uh, now as opposed to 15 months ago?
Aminatou: Well Ann as you know, I am a post processor, so I will probably be able to conclusively answer that question in seven years, please put a note in our calendar.
Ann: Okay. But do you suspect, do you have any suspicions?
Aminatou: I suspect there, um, there were some things where I was like, yeah, hell yeah, I'm equipped for this. Like I literally grew up in like West African chaos, you know what I mean? I was like some of this stuff, I was like, okay, like, this is like, I, not that I'm built for it or that it was easy to do, but I was like, okay, like, um, every day is chaos. I was like, that's literally how I grew up. So in some sense, I'm not, my own reaction to crisis never surprises me because I've had to be in crisis mode so much even when the crisis has extended. So that was not that much of a surprise. I think that where I have been really surprised or just like things that I didn't know, I was capable of like really just small things. I think also for me, it was mostly like, what has changed for me is being reminded of very old pleasures. Like I've had a really play, I've had a really playful time. Um, and part of that is because a lot of my friends have kids of all ages. And I think that being around children just like brings that out of you. But I also think that, you know, that season one of the pandemic, like the great regression where we were all like tie dying and like, you know, all of the, where the people with the privilege, us we're all doing that stuff. And, um, you know, pretending that like working from home was like being at the spa, um, when that was not the case for everyone. But I think that there was a lot of like, um, just like forgotten, like small pleasures that I was able to explore again. And that was really, um, that's been really nice and I'm just like that. Um, I, yeah, I think that it's less about like, do I learn something new about myself and did I remember something that I had really not made time for in a long time and remember how much I enjoyed it and yeah. And just like these really, really like, you know, nothing earth shattering just truly small ways. And I think I also, um, I like to learn a lot, um, and there's a world in which I would be a student for the rest of my life, but who was going to pay for that and not me. And I've had like a really good opportunity to like learn things in the pandemic and that's been really fun.
Ann: Oh my God, it's so true. If you were the child of an intensely rich family, I can see you just getting like PhD, after PhD.
Aminatou: Hundred percent!
Ann: Like a path not taken.
Aminatou: Hundred percent also and have some respect, never a PhD that's too much work. I would just like rack up bachelors. That's what I would do. I would be like, I have a 19 bachelor's. Um, but yeah, I love, I love to learn and I got to learn stuff. Um, what about you tell me.
Ann: Well, this is just where I am today. Like you, a notorious post processor. So I'm sure it will like much bigger and better thoughts about this far in the future, but where I'm at right now is really like an interesting point with relationship to my body. Like, I think the thing I was saying earlier about, um, like the deprivation tank of the pandemic is real like pre pre, like, you know, like maybe like two years ago, I would have told you that I'm like, yeah, like I take pleasure in getting dressed. I like being out in the world, but like, I don't really, like, I don't, I don't feel like deeply connected to, or in my body. Like, I've never been someone who gets like an exercise high or like, I dunno, like there's something about it where I'm always just like, as if these things can be separated, but I'm just like brain first. Like that's always been like how I feel. And there is something about, um, you know, kind of like coming back to the world where like that energy of like a million pieces of clothing on the ground, because I like am still, I'm working through in a new way how I want to be in my body in the world is a thing that I've been thinking about a lot. And I think it's one reason why I'm so excited to come see you in New York. I'm like, Ooh, like a chance to like try on a bunch of different clothes and be a body in the world in a new way in a new city. Um, that's not just me walking loops around my neighborhood in leggings, which is like a fine way to live, but like is really very different than the way I've been in my body for most of my life. So I don't know, I'm thinking, I'm thinking about that. And, um, and you know, and then everything, everything I said earlier about, um, you know, just realizing that, um, conversation and in particular in-person conversation is how I hone and clarify my ideas about the world. I mean, it's like, it is, it is so 101. I'm like, here I am, I host I'm, I've hosted this podcast with you for like how many years? Like, of course I like to own my ideas by talking about them. [laughter]
Aminatou: I, for one, am shocked, surprised and shocked
Ann: I guess, some new levels of appreciation for like, um, the things that allowed me to extract like pleasure and meaning from my life is like where I, where I am at. Um, and, and yeah, and that sense of like the preciousness of time, like, not just because of like Delta variant, Delta variant, Delta variant. But because of, but just because of like, right, like the realities of also having a body and like the fallibility of bodies. Um, so I don't know, that's, that's kind of where I'm at. And, and also just some like deep excitement, frankly. I'm like, I am so, so excited to come see you. I'm so excited to sign this book side by side, like you and I had this like intense. We did all the hard stuff together of writing a book and then we didn't get the fun part together. Like we didn't get the celebration together and I am ready. I'm ready for the party. I am ready for the lake, like looking deep into each other's eyes and being like, we did this, we fucking did this. Like, yes.
Aminatou: Well I, going back into hermit life soon because I've been living like a college student as, um, as I mentioned earlier, but I am very much looking forward to like finding every single photo booth in this town and, uh, taking a million pictures with you because we're going to have to fix that. I'm looking forward to, um, frog and toting. I am I, yeah, I just am look, I'm just really looking forward to being side-by-side. I just cannot, um, you know, I like, I know that we're good at long distance, but you know, you got it. You got to put the face time in man. And so...
Ann: And not capital F capital T like actual face time.
Aminatou: I know. Actual tace time, you know, me, I like, I would thrive in a long distance marriage. Um, but this is one of those times where I'm like, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta see your person. So I'm excited to see you. And I'm excited to party big P and small p.
Ann: Okay. And I, before we go, some, some biz that relates to like our book and partying, like one thing is that we are going to be doing some stock signings at independent bookstores together. And you can essentially buy a book from these places and get a signed copy. We will put that info in, um, our, on our Instagram, which is at Big Friendship books. So you can check there for info about how to get a signed copy and quite possibly a personalized copy for a friend, because like, guess what, we're going to be sitting side by side and can like sign with our own hands. Um, and then the other thing is that we have some really amazing, like friendship related episodes coming up this summer.
Aminatou: So good. Are you tired of listening to us? Because I'm tired of listening to us. Um, there’s going to be some really great guests coming, um, in the next couple of weeks. And they're going to tell you all about their own friendships. They're all podcasters who are also friends. Um, can we name some names? Is that cool?
Ann: Like only, only your number one faves like yes, of course. I think we can name some names, right? Is it too soon?
Aminatou: You are going to get Claire Mazur and Erica Cerulu. You are going to get Camilla Blackett and Priyanka Mattoo. You are going to get who else, Ann?
Ann: Idelisse Malave and Joanne Sandler of Two Old Bitches. Yes. Um, and really like, you know, I mean, that's many more, many more, we are nosy people and we were so excited to ask these other friends and podcasters some questions about their friendship, because really the whole point of Big Friendship, our book is to invite people, to tell specific stories about their friendships, not to just read about ours. Um, not to ask us for advice because lord knows we're not great at that, but really like, like, think about the specifics of what makes their big friendships special and wonderful. And so I cannot wait to hear from these other pairs of friends, examining their big friendships.
Aminatou: Um, I will see you on the internet and I will be listening to this very podcast next week.
Ann: I cannot wait for the moment. When we look at each other's outfits and are like, how did this happen? We didn't plan this. Like I am dying for that. I'm so excited to be a body next to your body in the world.
Aminatou: Oh my God. I cannot wait to see what you wear. I love you booboo.
Ann: I love you too. I will see you on the internet and off.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.