Bandsplain
10/22/21 - Yasi Salek's podcast Bandsplain has us listening to music like teens again, with obsessive curiosity about whole albums and the quirks and life stories that draw us into the artists we come to love, or learn more about canonical artists we never understood.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Bandsplain on Spotify
TRANSCRIPT: BANDSPLAIN
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Ann Friedman, what's up this week?
Ann: Our guest today is the incredible Yasi Salek who is the host of Bandsplain. Bandsplain is a Spotify show that walks listeners through an artist's catalog featuring full length songs throughout. And I'll be honest that I started listening to this show because it is executive produced by one Gina Delvac, our esteemed producer. But I stuck around because I love Yasi’s whole vibe so much. And I also really loved the way that this show focused my attention on one artist. I think like a lot of people I've really gotten into the habit of playlist listening or like algorithmic listening. And the show has reoriented me a little bit toward like diving back into an artist for catalog. Um, my gateway drug was the critic Ann Powers talking about Kate Bush for three hours. Like, let me tell you, treat yourself to that. But Yasi and I talk about a lot of stuff on this episode, bands obviously, but also what it means to listen really deeply to an artist, the whole concept of splaining in a music context, music criticism, and how our fandom styles are shaped by our teen years.
[theme song]
[interview begins]
Ann: Yasi. Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Yasi: Oh my God. Thank you for having me.
Ann: I want to start by asking you about this, this portmanteau term Bandsplain. Like what is bandsplaining?
Yasi: I think, you know, I think obviously it has its roots in the famed term mansplain. Originally we wanted to like call the show something like XYZ for dummies, but, um, that's heavily copyrighted. So, so we were trying to communicate kind of like the same like vibe and like, it was only, you know, much like everything else, things just happen by the invisible hand of God, um, where I was like, oh yeah, it is often, uh, men explaining music to other people. So yeah, we're splaining to the fans, but also, um, the, just as I'm being splained too.
Ann: Yeah, I think it's, so one reason I wanted to talk to you is because I find myself often trying to figure out how much, you know, because you are a very knowledgeable person when it comes to many of these bands that you're discussing many of these artists and how much of it is like a helpful device to get your also very knowledgeable guests to talk about their knowledge. And, um, and then I really went down a feminist spiral of like, oh my god, all the times that I have, um, professionally kind of suppressed the knowledge I have of something. Cause it's like better to get someone else to explain it. And then it's way, way darker in a personal context, of course, but you sort of said like, okay, people come on the show to explain to you, but like how do you walk that line of like, yeah, sometimes you are an expert.
Yasi: Well, this is a gorgeous question because I didn't have therapy this week because my therapist canceled. So I'm going to sort of use this to get into something, which is that, um, I actually, um, like to not know things because I grew up, um, being rewarded for having the right answer all the time. And it made me like, sort of like, um, mentally unwell in the sense that I felt that I always had to have the right answer or else I had no value. And I feel very like empowered and freed by saying, yeah, I don't know. Sorry, can you explain it to me? Um, but to answer your question more specifically, you know, I know some, I have my own, you know, I love bands. I've done research on my own pre this show because that's what fans do. You read stuff and you watch stuff. But I also, I prep pretty heavily for every show. So, um, now I end up having at the very least more factual information often than my guests, but that's not knowing, you know.
Ann: Right. Yeah. I mean, so maybe, maybe a better way to ask that is, um, about your personal history with music and fandom or like what, what was your point of entry to knowing a lot about a band? What was the first band or artists that you were like, I really know a lot about this person.
Yasi: I was born in 1982. So like in 1991, when Blood Sugar Sex Magic and Nirvana Nevermind came out. I was like primed to lose my mind to hard rock music. Cause I had never heard it before. And I was like, what is this? It's amazing specifically around, um, Give It Away Now by Red Hot Chili Peppers. I really love that song, but Nirvana kind of became my favorite first band, you know, you're 11 years old and you're like, maybe like about to have your period and everyone is the worst and you hate your parents and like you're so angry and you don't know where to put it. And that band, like I had just never experienced like a place to put my rage. And so I was really obsessed with Nirvana. And you know, obviously you remember, they were also like a huge, massive band, like culturally, like MTV. They were everywhere. And I went to a used bookstore with my dad and there was a book there, uh, Route 6 6 6: On the Road to Nirvana by Gina Arnold. And I thought it was just like a book about Nirvana. So I obviously bought it and it ended up being this like just gorgeous first person book, you know, essentially about fandom in some ways, but also just about these various roads of different artists and scenes that led up to Nirvana and led up to allowing Nirvana to become as big as it did. And so I would just like save up my allowance money and go every week and buy whatever was mentioned in this book, the replacements Fu Gazi, The Weirdos, like there was just so much, Black Flag, stuff I'd never, I was 11. So, you know, and this woman changed my life. Like all of my favorite music came from this book and I don't, I mean, I guess I would have eventually come to it, but like to have it as my own little secret thing, you know, in my bedroom at that age and feeling like I was like part of this secret world that also didn't exist anymore was like really special to me.
Ann: God, I love that so much because it captures so much of the pre-social media serendipity that I think was required to like start a music fandom journey. I mean, I am also a 1982 baby. So how I found the first things I loved was like, it felt similarly, um, rooted in luck. Like I would like, oh, I just happened to read the liner notes on this like one album and I liked the name of the band. So I bought that and that opened the door to like 10 other things.
Yasi: Do you remember like going to the record store and seeing a cool cover and being like, yeah, I'm going to gamble $13 on that because the cover is so cool.
Ann: I gambled so much babysitting money. Like, all I did was gamble on music that I had never heard before. It's, it's wild to think about it now and, um, not to make this into like old lady power hour, which is another show I would a hundred percent subscribe to. But, but you know, like it's, it is interesting to think about like, like, do you think that that shaped your fandom, like the way you hear and approach music?
Yasi: Yeah, definitely because like, I keep seeing this like meme go around. That's like, I think it's about depression, can't say, but it's like tag yourself and there's like all these things in it. And one of them is listens to same song on repeat. And I'm like, well, like when I had $13 that week to go buy an album, I was going to listen to that album on repeat for days and days and days because that's the new album I had. And it was like some so immersive and like, yeah, listen, you don't have to apologize. Bandsplain is old man yelling at the cloud hours all the time. Um, I think that's, I'm sad that that's not the way fandom exists anymore because I think that there's something so special about living and occupying the world of an album because of the constraints that we don't have anymore.
Ann: Absolutely. Um, yeah, I just thinking about, um, how, one thing I like about your show in particular is that it makes me listen a little bit more. Like I used to listen when I was a teenager, which is to say big chunks of the same artist, or like, you know, maybe all the way through an album. Is that something that you were still doing before this show came into existence or like has working on the show, brought that back for you?
Yasi: No, I was definitely still doing it. I'm not, I'm not like a big playlist person.
Ann: Spotify Podcaster is not a playlist person? [laughter]
Yasi: I know. Gina. Um, no, but I go, listen, I like playlist I'm a, just recently made a five-hour long one because somebody asked me to do it for some playlist. Uh, every Sunday it's called Herb Sundays. Um, and I like them. I, let me, let me take it back. Gina, take your, your earmuffs off. Um, it's like a mood thing, right? Like I, like, I like to have randomness in my listening if I'm not engaged, if that makes sense. Like, if I'm just like doing something that I don't want to have to pay attention to, I prefer the just random songs come on, but like more than no, um, I'm not, I'm lying to make Spotify happy. I just really, I like to consume albums as pieces, as works because there's like a journey that you, I sound so lame, but there is, it's like, you know, you get you go on this journey and people, really artists sat and thought about like, what's the first song, what's the second song. There's a story being told. There's like an emotional, ups and downs that like, you go through listening to these albums. And like, I really love that.
Ann: What is, what's like the last newish album that you had that experience with?
Yasi: Oh, no. Um, I really liked the last Mannequin Pussy album, it's called Perfect, I think I love that band. And I think, um, their albums are really well thought out and sort of like to be taken as, um, a work, um, the Turnstile album, which I know everyone loves it. I did really enjoy listening to it. I found it just like really textured and interesting. Like it was super like whiplash journey and this is kind of old, but oh, Taylor Swift’s Evermore. I really liked it.
Ann: That's old, like in the grand scheme. Like I feel like the album that I'm doing multiplications of are like, they stick around for a lot longer now than in the past, because I'm just like, I don't know. I'm hitting, I'm hitting the age of life where statistically, there is some statistic about this where people listen to less new music, I think, am I making this up? Have you heard something like this? Like, you know, mid thirties and later is like, when...
Yasi: I haven't heard it, but I definitely stopped at like 30. I was like, I don't need anything else. Thank you so much. I have the entire catalog of the nineties behind me and I'm good.
Ann: Or like I’m motivated to go backward and listen to artists that informed the artists I connected with in my late teens and twenties. But like, I think I really have to amp myself up to be a full album listener to newer stuff.
Yasi: Yeah. I mean like someone like a Taylor Swift obviously like will capture my attention cause I am a big fan and I will give it the time, you know? Cause I think I know the payoff has happened so many other times if that makes sense, but it's a little bit, it is a little harder for me to like get it up to listen to like also I'm like, so spiritually Gen X that when like the entire internet is like, this is awesome. I'm like, is it though? I don't believe it.
Ann: And yet Taylor Swift and yet Taylor Swift,
Yasi: I know I'm full of contradictions, a complicated woman.
Ann: Perfect. Tell me about your relationship with Taylor Swift.
Yasi: I love Taylor Swift. I love her music. I think she's just so talented. Um, I pretty much love every album. I just, I mean, she's not like, let me say this delicately. She's not like a Rihanna to me in the sense that like, I will, I will consume anything. Rihanna does aesthetically, products. You know what I mean? Like I'll read 28 pages of interviews if she ever does them. I don't have quite the same relationship with Taylor Swift as like a persona or person, but her music has just always hit the mark for me. I think, I just think she's incredibly talented and I like, that's a really good pop music.
Ann: I want to go back and talk about like a 11 year old to teen Yasi. So were you someone who was then splaining Nirvana to the people in your life where you like, did you find yourself in that role?
Yasi: Um, I don't know what people? [laughter]
Ann: No people? You know, to, to your dad who drove you to the record store and that was it.
Yasi: But yeah, my dad, my immigrant father from Iran who was like, I literally cannot believe that this is what you're interested in. Um, my friend Fiorella's cousin was older and he was a punk, like a straight up like subhumans patches on the leather jacket, mohawk, punk. And so his friends and they, I would talk to them about music. They were in like high school and they would give me tapes and stuff. Um, but I, I don't really remember talking to anyone like in school or my age. I have, I have a cousin who's 10 years older than me and her and I were very tight, Sema, and her boyfriend at the time, this guy Matt was very cool. And he would like make me Pixies tapes. And like, we, she took me to Lollapalooza, you know, like, so I had like, I guess, like I just was hanging or talking to like older people about music then I don't know why. I don't know what was going on with my other, my fellow 11 years. I didn't have a lot of friends also for being totally honest.
Ann: Do you have memories of being splained to?
Yasi: Yeah. By like, by like every boyfriend I ever had? Um, no, I'm just kidding. I mean, I'm sure some of them didn't, um, I don't want to, for the bit, implicate them all. Um, not to later, not to like college I've like college was like prime. Well, let me tell you how it is babe. You know,
Ann: Fully. Yeah. I mean, not at age 11 or whatever, but yeah, when I, I dunno, I, I guess like that is something that I think about a lot when I listen to your show is like, oh, I can receive this in this format. Whereas like, you know, other, other people in my life, like, let's be real men, especially men who I knew when I was younger, might've been imparting similar knowledge about like, you know, where a band came from or like what albums were important or departures or things like that. And I was just, um, it wasn't, I don't know. I was like angry about it even then. Like, I don't want to hear about this from you. I know.
Yasi: Okay. I want to ask you, cause I'm always so curious. You know, what the listener’s experience is back to the Gina Arnold book. And I told her this, that book also taught me that like you could engage with music without being a critic, which I didn't know about music criticism, again, 11 years old, but like, you know, this book was about experiential and, and that's, that's how I approach bands playing too. Cause I don't really have any interest in being a music critic. I am not qualified nor do I care to do it, but I feel like the facts are cool, but I really like talking to someone about why something is awesome. And I also like to like speculate about the psychology of the band or the artists, because I think that's like a raw shock of like your own psychology. And that's why it's so fun to do, you know, like it's like, what do you see in the song? And why do you think they wrote it this way when it's like, what's going on with you? And that happens a lot with me with doing this show where I'm like, man, I'm going through something. And right now I'm imprinting that onto the Weapon Heads or whatever. So I don't know the question I guess is like, is that something that comes through in the show that it's like less about these sort of like factual things about abandoned more about like a joy and celebration of this artist?
Ann: Yeah. I mean, I think that comes through my eye. I mean, I'm certainly not like, like listening for what is the best album, you know what I mean? Or like what is, what is a critically, what is the, what is this critic? Tell me about what I need to know. I mean, it's, for me, it's definitely more about like filling in gaps in, in maybe what I've paid attention to in the past, which when I think about all criticism, I like across, you know, artistic media, across genre, whatever, I feel like that's what I like is like, oh, Hey, maybe direct your attention this way a little bit. And it will, it will hit different, you know?
Yasi: Totally. Yeah. I think there's like so many critics that do that so well. [inaudible] Hoppers obviously and Ann Powers and I really liked Jon Caramanica’s criticism. Um, he doesn't, we don't have similar tastes in music, but I think he has such an interesting lens on stuff. Um, so yeah, I agree with you. That's, that's what the best criticism does.
Ann: Yeah. I mean that the Ann Powers episode on Kate Bush is, it's funny, actually, this is the answer to your question about how I hear the show where I texted. Um, I texted a friend of mine who is an artist and a musician and, um, you know, someone who I know like me is very into Kate Bush and was like, you need to listen to multiple hours of, you know, the, the God and power is talking about the God handbook or Ann Bush, the, the God Kate Bush. And, and she was like, mm, I don't really do critics. And I, and I, and I was like this doesn't, it's not criticism in the sense of like a ranking of albums, even though obviously Ann does say what she does. And doesn't like, but I think, you know, I was just like, I got lots of new info on Kate Bush and I know you want info on Kate Bush. And that's how I pitched it. And she was like, I fucking loved it.
Yasi: Yeah. I mean to your friend, I'm like, I hear you, babe. People are a little tired of like criticism in certain ways, especially with the Pitchfork-iffication of music, you know, I get it, why people are just like, I don't want that.
Ann: What's your thought about canonical artists or like, you know, the idea that there are, you know, if you call yourself a fan of sir extra genre, you should at least engage with this set of people. What do you think about the idea of a cannon in general? Like is, should everyone just have a personal cannon? Is there any point all to some kind of universal? Like these are the artists that mattered?
Yasi: Oh no, no. I mean, I think that there's a reason that artists become can non and it's not like a mandatory thing to engage with them, but I do think it's like, you know, a lot of potential for discovery of things that people might love lays with them that really the impetus to do this show is like that kind of artists. Cause I think it's like if you make it far enough in your life and you're like, okay, I know two Led Zeppelin songs. I'm never going to know more than to let you know, but it's like maybe secretly, you want to kind of like get into it, but it's just too overwhelming. I feel like that's kind of what this show is hopefully for is to be like, okay, don't worry, we'll walk you through it. And like, here's an access point, you know? Cause I think that's the problem with a lot of these like artists of the cannon, you're just like, I don't even know where to start. Like it's too big. It's too big for me to like engage or deal with. And so I'm not going to, and I, and I feel like that this is just like, we started this to give people like a little inroad to be like, Hey, maybe you like it, if not, go ahead, turn it off.
Ann: Right. And what are your criteria? Like how is an artist worthy of your attention on the show? That's a good,
Yasi: That's a good way of putting it because we got a lot of like, not a lot of like comments and mail. It's like, what are the rules? Okay. This artist is not a cult artist. And you said, then how do you? And I was like, well, first of all, babe, this is not the DMV. There are no rules. Like what are you, what do you wish for it to be? It's not the government. It's my podcast that I make for fun. So the rules are that I decide.
Ann: Not to stereotype, but are these emails for men often?
Yasi: Yes. In fairness, our listener base is primarily men. So that's going to happen if the emails, I love you reply guys, if you're listening, um, often there's bands. I just want to do selfishly because I love them. There's bands that I want to do. Cause I don't get it. There's people I want to talk to. And so I asked them what band or artists they want to talk about, and then that gets us to a place. So it's pretty all over the place. Again, hand of God is leading the way.
Ann: I mean, not a hand of God though, like you and your producers and hands of gods, you know.
Yasi: The holy spirit is working through me and producer Dylan.
Ann: There is like a magic quality to host producer relationships that, um, I don't want to force you to define, but I, I do again, kind of experiencing your show, maybe the way some people experience hours where like, I love it. When you talk about producer Dylan, I'm like, yes. Tell me more about this behind the scenes magic.
Yasi: Producer Dylan is just like truly constantly eye-rolling me. Um, but then she's also my cheerleader that like chimes in with our, our shorthand is a GP for good point. And then if I do really good, it's an excellent point. Um, and then she's also the one that goes Yasi. Don't say that like 12 to 15 times per episode. Um, and a large part of her job is just calming my neuroses.
Ann: Oh God, the writer, editor relationship, the producer host relationship, like so much neuroses calming.
Yasi: She's a Virgo. So she's like, I think uniquely equipped to deal with it.
Ann: And what is your sign?
Yasi: I'm a taurus, but I have an aries moon, which, um, you know, drives my mental illness.
Yasi: Like I asked, like I know anything about astrology. I don't, I've just lost Angeles for long enough.
Yasi: What are you Ann?
Ann: I'm a Capricorn.
Yasi: Oh, interesting. Okay.
Ann: Um, and then I have my other two important ones, moon and rising are leo and cancer, but I always forget, which is which.
Yasi: Interesting. I feel I could see your moon being leo. Do you feel like compelled to toward the spotlight?
Ann: No. I mean, I feel, I feel like my idea, I feel compelled to put my ideas in the spotlight, but like me as a person.
Yasi: Are you so different from your ideas?
Ann: Oh my God. Yes, because they're important now this is my therapy session. These are important distinctions. Um, I want to ask about having a mostly male listener base. I don't really, I'm trying not to make every question about like men and splaining and like what it's like for you to host this show as a woman, or do you like occupy this space as a woman who is an authority, but I, I really am so interested in all of that. I like to picture like faceless hoards of men, listening to you as the conduit for the splaining. Like that just brings me some pleasure.
Yasi: Yeah, totally. I can't, I don't want to speak for my reply guys because listen guys, I would not do that to you, but allow me to speculate much like I do about the artists. I sometimes think that like, that's what does it for them? You know? Or they're like, oh, we don't often hear a woman with vocal fry who says babe, and totally every like three to five minutes, um, talk at length about music, especially the music that they cherish and hold so near and dear to their hearts. And you know, I think they get off on it and it's actually, I don't know. Maybe it's actually, um, I've got, I don't wanna speak for them, but you know, I think it's, it's different and for whatever reason they enjoy it.
Ann: For whatever reason. Tell me about like your, what do you, what's your creative life outside of, of hosting Bandsplain?
Yasi: I don't have a life outside of Bandsplain.
Ann: I don't believe that for one moment.
Yasi: Um, no, I'm, I'm quite serious. I'm very busy, but it takes a long time to read all the books and watch all the documentaries and take all the notes. I still write from time to time. I like to make jewelry. I make some scented hand soaps what?
Ann: What? That's like six hobbies.
Yasi: I know, I wish I had, I don't do them all the time. Um, I'm learning to play guitar, which I started, um, also in the pandemic because I don't think it's too late for me to start a band. And so once I can play a couple of songs, it is over for you hoes. Um, yeah, I guess that's, I cook a lot. That's creative
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Ann: Okay. As someone who has consumed many, many music documentaries at this point, do you have a favorite? That's sort of like separate from maybe loving the artist, but like, this is just a great thing to sit and watch.
Yasi: I mean off top, some kind of monster, the Metallica documentary is, is truly art.
Ann: It is honestly wild. How good it is. Like for me having zero interest in Metallica, how wrapped I was at that documentary.
Yasi: Yeah. It's because there it's insane. It's insane that they allowed this to see the light of day. It's insane that they would, they allowed the cameras to like capture them doing what they were doing, which is essentially group therapy. Um, just the whole thing is so bare and naked. It's like a level of access that you do not get to people that are that famous, like, you know, documentaries about famous people are just like two hour long ads. Usually like there's, there's like, oh, here's the part where they cry. Oh, okay. Now everything's okay. You know, like, there's just, no, you never feel really engaged by it, but here you just felt like you were like, oh God, I'm seeing something I'm not supposed to be seeing.
Ann: Yeah. And also I'm like, maybe I realize we kind of skipped over the, what is the what? And you, you said they go to therapy, but like for people who are not familiar with some kind of monster, maybe you could give like a little synopsis of what it is and why it's so great.
Yasi: Sure Some Kind of Monster is a documentary about Metallica during the making of their album St. Anger, um, during which I think they kind of intended it to be this like great, you know, we're going to make a doc about our band and it's going to be awesome. But just like during the making of the doc, everything falls apart, they fire their bassist. Or they had just before us, they don't have a basis. Um, the lead singer a month in, goes to rehab abruptly for alcoholism. They clearly don't like each other and they're fighting the entire time. They bring a performance enhancement coach named Phil Towel who is like essentially a psychiatrist. And he's--
Ann: Sorry for laughing at your name, Phil Towel.
Yasi: His name is Phil Towel. That's right. Oh, the producer's name is Bob Rock.
Ann: Bob Rock. Okay.
Yasi: Anyways, it's incredible. The guy sits there and has them write out their feelings, his lyrics, which yielded, uh, lyrics on the album, such as I'm madly in anger with you. And, uh, my lifestyle determines my death style. It's a gorgeous piece of cinema and you should watch it.
Ann: I, I really, um, it's been a long time since I've seen it, but I, but it's also like three hours long. It's also so long. Yeah.
Yasi: It's worth it though. Lars’s dad comes in and he's just this like Danish man with like a huge beard. Who's just like emotionless. And like, they play him a song and he's like, what do you think dad? And he's like, I think you should delete this. It's just incredible. Every moment twists and turns. I love it.
Ann: How...I'm just thinking about like, one thing that fascinated me so much about that documentary is it was like this way into masculine expressions of like feeling and vulnerability and tenderness that, um, I I think are like still pretty rare and pretty scarce. And particularly that kind of like, I mean, metallic it's metallic, metallic paper hyper-masculine right. Um, and, uh, you know, I mean, many, many of the bands that you have delved into on the show are led by, or like primarily men, not saying your whole archive is all male bands, but like, let's be real without like a lot of influence, true influential rock music. Um, do you have any kind of overarching theory about, um, you know, music and like masculine expressions of feeling or vulnerability?
Yasi: I think that all music contains within it, masculinity and femininity, regardless of the gender of the person making it or delivering it. And I think that when music is really good, it has a really interesting balance of the two. Um, and I think when music is all the way, one side or the other it's less accessible, um, in general.
Ann: Got it. So I'm just like, Hmm. I maybe what I'm really trying to ask is like, like for beings that identify as masculine, do you feel like you have a different understanding after delving into like, I dunno, like iconic, like there are just iconic male artists and maybe I'm being really binary in terms of like, who finds what where.
Yasi: Not to be all like, not all men, but I mean, they're also different, you know, like they're all animated by different things. It's like, you can't put Kurt Cobain next to Bono next to James Hatfield and say that they have the same, you know, things that drive them. Like, it's, I, I really think it's true that like all of these people that make music contained within them these like different balances of masculinity and femininity, and they telegraph that through music.
Ann: Where do you come down on questions of acknowledging artists, bad behavior, or like things that do not maybe meet your, or my, or our now collective standards. And, and I think that there are a couple of episodes that deal with this really specifically, but I'm curious about how you think of it writ large.
Yasi: Yeah. I mean, I think I'm in for the show, obviously you just said, like, we we'll always, we'll always bring it up. We're never going to pretend it never happened because I don't think that serves anyone or anything, or also like we're telling the cultural implications and story of a band. You can't leave out something like that. That is also part of their story. I guess, where I land is that like, I am not the judge. I want to take it in and I want to think about it. And obviously it's up to person to person, like, how much does this, how much can you accept or defend or not think about XYZ thing for XYZ artists. But I do think that's like a kind of a personal decision.
Ann: For sure. I mean, I, and I think, you know, that is largely how I feel about it too, but it also, it also feels a little contradictory in maybe not in terms of the cultural moment as we actually experience it, but in terms of the narrative, right? Like the narrative is like, this is a moment where people are collectively in or they're collectively out. And I don't think that's true. I actually think most people, like, like you said, are sort of thinking like, okay, like for whatever reason, I don't listen to this artist past this album, or I don't listen to this person at all.
Yasi: Well, we should think about it though. Like, I think completely ignoring it or not covering it, doesn't serve anybody. Right. Like, I think we've hit this point where like, it's the quickest thing and the most satisfying thing for people as to okay. You're canceled by. I never want to hear from you again, you didn't exist actually. And I'm not sure that serves anyone. Like, I think that like, if we're not engaging with bad behavior and trying to understand, and also like having some grace for humans, because we're all humans and I just, I feel like it's, we'll, we'll, we'll stay here, you know, we'll just stay here and we'll just keep X-ing people out.
Ann: Yeah. Um, I'm trying to think of some good personal examples or some good specific examples of where this comes up. I mean, I think about you and, uh, the great Jessica Hopper talking about Joni Mitchell's catalog like early versus later years. And, um, for those who have not had the privilege of engaging with all those hours of Bandsplain, I mean, spoiler alert, latter day, Joni Mitchell is like appearing in blackface and having some, making some very questionable statements about like, you know, her own identity and who she, who she feels aligned with. And, um, you know, that's like one example I think of, of like, you know, I think about Jessica saying like her Joni fandom really kind of ends before all that begins. It really does matter to her. Right. You know, there are other people for whom they're like, you know, not my fave, but...
Yasi: But it's okay with me or whatever.
Ann: I mean yeah. And, and, and like, and then, you know, like that that's one example versus like, you know, artists who are, um, accused, but maybe not convicted of like abuse or things like that. Like, you know what I mean? There's such a big range of like infractions, I guess, that, that come into play.
Yasi: Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, I think it's, I, I just think bottom line it's really worth engaging with, because I think putting it in a box and hoping it goes away. And again, just to be clear, do you know, I know you're listening. I don't, I don't not think, I mean, obviously people need to have consequences for their like bad and her harmful behavior. Absolutely. But I think the consequences that is you don't exist anymore. It's not beneficial to our society as a whole. And I really like actually worries me, like about our humanity. Right.
Ann: You know, maybe I'm just going to lean right into this thing that I've heard you say frequently on the show is the feminism has left my body.
Yasi: That's true. That's correct.
Ann: What is that feeling? What is inspired that feeling? Please unpack that for me.
Yasi: I mean, I'm largely joking, but am I? No, I, I think, you know, what kind of answer do you want? Do you want a joking answer? Do you want a serious answer?
Ann: No. I want a serious answer, because I actually think this relates to the question about like how we're able to engage in a complex way with stuff. I mean, I do feel like I have a viewing mode, which is sometimes like, I'm just going to like put my feminism in a little box and tuck it under the bed so I can enjoy this movie that I loved when I was 20, you know, or whatever.
Yasi: But isn't your, isn't your feminism that you are allowed to engage with the world on any level that you want just like men are, you know, like that's, that's kind of what I mean, when I say the feminism has left my body and you forgot the second part, which is that I just want to hug [inaudible] [laughter], which also stands true. Um, you know, like I think that's, I think we've, we've just like hit peak mass feminism overload in a sense that like, you know, it's become, it's kind of like punk, right? Like here's a, lemme I'm doing this on the fly. So like punk was about freedom, right. But then what happened was punk became about rules and punk became about, you're not punk enough, you're a sellout. You can't do this. You're not allowed to do this. And I think feminism was also like, this is about freedom. This is about equality and freedom. It's not really, to me, supposed to be about, oh, you can't do that. That's not feminist. Like, if I want to get a lobotomy and a husband and live on a farm and make soup, I can do that. You know? Like, and if you want to watch, I don't know, Rosemary's baby, whatever. I don't know what you were referring to, but like, or whatever, got canceled. The Christmas movie that I love Love Actually, which I believe has been canceled several times for, I don't even remember what I'm still going to watch it. Maybe it's good. It's a good movie because I'm able to, you know, hold two thoughts in my brain at once.
Ann: It really has to do, I think for me was shutting off critique. Like now that I, now that I'm talking through it, like it has to do with like, uh, a more passive versus like a more active listening or viewing experience. And there are some things that I just enjoy more passively. I think maybe that's what I'm trying to say.
Yasi: Yeah and I think we should, we should, we should be able to enjoy things badly, I guess. Like, ultimately, like, I feel I've, I've grown tired because feminism has been co-opted by capitalism and there's just no getting around that. And I don't want feminism to tell me how to be more productive or whatever, or lean in. And like, and I know that's not what it is. Okay. But like, I think now it's become shorthand for that. And like, I hear it from like teens, you know, like, and the teens, like teen boys are terrified of the word feminism, because they think they're all going to get canceled.
Ann: Tell me more, tell me more about your, like, like, how are you interacting with teen boys? Teenagers are so far from my existence right now. I'm like, are they writing? Are they listeners to the show? Are they like your friend's kids? Like, I’m so curious
Yasi: Yeah. They're like friends, kids, and then cousins and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But I just, I find teenagers really fascinating. Cause I feel like you're so like, you're, I don't know. I, you're never more alive than you are when you're a teen, you know, like you're, you're like an open wound, but you're also like coming into your own, but you're also an adult, you know? And like, I felt like I was a full adult when I was like 13 or 14 years old and I did not understand why people wouldn't take me seriously or talk to me, but you know, they also lack experience. It's like such an interesting place to exist. So I just liked talking to them.
Ann: Do you feel fundamentally, like, I mean, I guess you just kind of said this, but I'm going to echo it back. Like fundamentally the same as you were when you were like a teenager.
Yasi: Oh, totally. I mean, I think, I think fundamentally like spiritually 100%, I think, um, you know, I've overcome a lot of obstacles and things that hinder my pure essence as a person. Like for example, wanting to always have the right answer or things that cause me anxiety or things that don't allow me to like be myself in the world. I mean, like this podcast, you know, like it took a lot to be like, okay, why don't you guys all listen to four hours of me literally being an idiot and sounding like to my ears so dumb, but it's like, it's also, that's exactly who I am and to just wholesale accept that and be like, okay, here you go, baby. I feel like it great, if you don't okay. That's fine too. That's something I couldn't have done as a teen.
Ann: And also like that is, that is something I really pick up on as a listener, which is like, um, I don't know. I think sometimes you can hear it's like, it's like why it's so easy to make fun of NPR voice. It's like, you can hear someone putting on a cloak of like an idea of authority. Um, and I find it so much more compelling to just be like, right. Yasi says, babe, a lot, great I'm here, I'm listening. You know, like it doesn't feel, um, I don't know. I, but I, I am interested in that question too, because the question of, of like being your teen self, because I do think it really relates to, um, and now we're really full circle and experience of listening that is reflected in the work that you do. It feels so fundamentally teen to like really embrace fandom and really like dive in, in a whole album way to what artists are doing.
Yasi: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think when you're a teenager or when you're me, who is a teenager and turning 40, you're just always looking to be seen and reflected back to yourself and art does that, right? Like music does that. And so you really connect with it cause you're like, oh my god, like my thoughts and feelings are being telegraphed back to me by this art. And I feel less alone and teenagers, I think, you know, it's a really lonely time so.
Ann: Geat. I love that. Okay. Last question. Um, it's a deeply spiritual one. I would love to hear more about your framed drawing of Dave Matthews that you got on Depop.
Yasi: Oh my God. My framed drawing of David Matthews that I got on Depop what, what a joy. So I ordered a David Matthews band t-shirt off of Depop because those teens do not know what they have their hands on. I'll tell you that much. And this, it was actually, it was actually a gen X white man who sold it to me and in the package, he just of his own volition. Bless his heart. Just a gorgeous moment. I opened the package and out flutters, this drawing like marker drawing of Dave Matthews, just as a little, little gift for me without nothing said, nothing, just a bonus. And I love it so much. Producer Dylan hates it. I have it framed. She bought me a frame for it. Um, and it does sit on my desk and sort of just like overlook what I do.
Ann: I have to tell you that, um, I have a visceral memory from my preteen, like pre sexual years of reading a Spin magazine interview with Dave Matthews.
Yasi: Oh, I know exactly the cover you're talking about. He was wearing like a gray t-shirt and blue jeans on it.
Ann: Probably. But the question was like, if you could only have like food or sex for the rest of your life, which would you choose? Like you could, you, you have to like, let go of one thing.
Yasi: He obviously said sex. Have you ever heard any of assault?
Yasi: Oh, he said sex obviously. But this, the second part of his answer was cause I could just live on the juices and stuff. And I was like, not ready for this as like at the tender age, I was like readings spin in my basement bedroom. And I was just like simultaneously obsessed, disgusted. It's like all the, it is so like close to all of my like early sexual feelings that like that is maybe that's why I can never listen to Dave Matthews. Like it's really, it hit something. I don't know. I don't know if it was like too close or too soon, but yeah.
Yasi: And you got to put on Crash into Me, babe, and just like reconnect with that part of yourself because he's a deeply, he's a deeply erotic man. Music is very erotic. My friend Dana did accompany me to see him perform in Milwaukee like two weeks ago. And she wins the friendship award because she does not particularly care for the Dave Matthews band, but I cried.
Ann: Great. I love that for you. I'm really I'm happy that it was not the first time slash only time you've seen Dave Matthews in person.
Yasi: Yes and it delivered like you would not believe also he is still so hot back to your Spin magazine.
Ann: I just have to blushing, I’m blushing just remembering.
Yasi: He is a handsome, gorgeous man.
Ann: Yasi. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat.
Yasi: Oh My gosh. Thank you so much for having me. It was so fun.
Ann: Okay. I'm going to go listen to Crash.
Yasi: That's right.
[interview ends]
Ann: You can listen to Bandsplain on Spotify and we'll link it in the show notes. I will see you on the internet.
Aminatou: My love, I'll see you on the internet.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.