See You on the Nostalgia Tour
12/10/21 - Is there anything you miss from before the internet? Reading, focus, getting lost, filing cabinets, are just a few of the things New York Times Book Review editor Pamela Paul discusses with us. Her new book is 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
100 Things We Lost to the Internet by Pamela Paul
TRANSCRIPT: SEE YOU ON THE NOSTALGIA TOUR
[Ads]
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman. Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere. Hello Aminatou Sow. We're just getting wild now at the end.
Aminatou: We’re getting wild. It's like the show, you know, like the winding down the like the, you know, everything about it is different. How you doing over there?
Ann: It's the last hour of the party, you know, like who, who are you in the last hour of the party scenario? Like, are you—
Aminatou: I already went home. I already went home. I already went, already went home. And the rest of you fools are still dancing.
Ann: Oh, here's what I am doing. I am like lurking vulture-like over the remains of the snack table. That is what I'm doing in the last hour of the party. like, you know, maybe like, depending on energy levels, there's some participation in like a dance floor or conversation, but mainly I'm like, what is left of these snacks?
Aminatou: Uh-uh, I'm already home. And my pajamas and I sent a text. That's like, oh, didn't say goodbye. You guys were having so much fun. Love you.
Ann: No, actually that's not what happened, everyone at the party texted you being like, wait, are you still here? Are you in the bathroom?
Aminatou: Cold blooded!
Ann: And you replied, I'm already home in my pajamas. That is exactly what happened.
Aminatou: I don't reply. I just send a selfie of me doing my skincare routine at night. And it's like, ladies please.
Ann: Oh my God.
Aminatou: Some of us have priorities. I was reading that news item about the finish, um, prime minister who is 36. Who's like in big trouble over there because she went out clubbing until four. First of all, the word clubbing makes me so happy. I'm like, Thank you clubbing.
Ann: That’s also what killed me.
Aminatou: I know. You know, it's like, they're like, yeah, she went out clubbing until 4:00 AM. And the real problem is that she actually like left her work phone at home. And so she missed an alert that was like, girl, you need to quarantine because you are a close COVID contact. like, you're a foreign minister. And everyone is like mad at her. And I was like, first of all, a 36 year old that can club until four o'clock in the morning. No wonder this country is number one. Like, are you kidding me?
Ann: That's why she has the stamina for public life. That's how, you know, she has the stamina.
Aminatou: I'm just like, I'm look at me out here Googling like Helsinki nightlife. I'm like, what's happening over there. Like these people are wild. What couldn't be me, but good job that lady. Good job that lady.
Ann: Listen though, that is like so much healthier than like America's median age politician, who is like, you know, early hanging on. And I don't even mean that in an age way. I just mean in terms of like having many generations represented in policy making like the, the like age balance of America's lawmakers, I'm like, we could use more clubbing age people,
Aminatou: Me, 36, barely non diversity matters representing like what I was reading this and I wasn't outraged that like, you know, she missed the COVID text. I'm like, ha I'm like, tell me you're superpowers. How are you out at four o'clock in the morning, nuts.
Ann: Ugh. I support it.
Aminatou: I do support it. Today's like a big day for ladies in politics. You know, it's also like Angela Merkel's last day. You can, like, you can very much tell you can tell that we're like this when this podcast was recorded. But you know, it's like, I just, like wistfully was like looking on these pictures of her. And I was like, this lady really was like the leader of the entire free world for the last four years, you know, like, like nuts.
Ann: For 16 years. Like, and you know, and now she has so much more free time to go clubbing. Like really? That's like what Angela is really, gets to spend it however she wants.
Aminatou: I know. Yeah. It was just like, during those Trump years, I was like, she was my president too, you know? So it was like, it was nice. It was just nice to know that there was a grownup, like not asleep with the wheel, but how wild, how wild I know. I know.
Ann: Okay. And what are we talking about today?
Aminatou: Today I talk to, um, Pamela Paul, who is the author of A Hundred Things We've Lost to the Internet. Um, Pamela is the editor of the New York Times book review. And you know, and this book is really, it takes you on a nostalgic tour of the pre-internet age.
[theme song]
Aminatou: Pam will get into like, you know, the hundred things that she misses, um, from before the internet. But I'm curious Ann what are your things that you miss from the pre-internet age?
Ann: I don't, I, I don't know, actually, if there's anything that I, because I was so young in the pre-internet age, like, I, I, I definitely like did not get the internet until I was a teenager and, you know, and we did not have accessible internet in our pockets until I was like a fully baked adult. So I don't feel like I have the perspective of like knowing an adult life without the internet, which probably makes a difference. Um, I think that, um, I miss my level of concentration right. Um, and I also, I, I also, um, do miss, um, inaccessibility like, I think, you know, I, I definitely have different speeds with different friends in terms of the assumed responsiveness that we will each have for each other. But, um, I, I do miss the idea that like, if you're not in touch, it's a problem. Like, I, I think it's good for people to be able to kind of like go off on their own or like not be in touch for a little while or have some time to themselves. And those are pretty big and abstract. I mean, I can't, I can't really think of any like items or like thing. I don't know. Like, it's a, it's a tough one for me. What about you?
Aminatou: I mean, I miss the inaccessibility one, like you, I think also like, you know, and, and Pamela, like in her book very much is clear that like it's not a, the internet is bad and the pre-internet world is good. It really is just like, kind of, wistfully looking at experiences that you can't have anymore. I think that, like, mm-hmm, something that I like am very aware of is how little, like I, like, I'm not very good at navigation at all. Even if I'm like doing a walk that I've done a hundred times before, like even like, if I'm going in a straight line, I do not feel secure unless I like, I access Google maps and we are in agreement that yes, it is a straight line for 27 minutes. I just need to make sure about, and that makes me really sad. I think I also get sad about, you know, just like all the games that you like, all the memories that we used to play as kids. Cuz I like, especially when I lived in West Africa, there were these like long moments where we would have no electricity or whatever and you know, like, and that's not romantic or cool, but I do remember that like we would sit around and just play all of these fun memory games and I'm like, Ugh, you can like look up the answer to everything, you know? And I like, I miss that moment of just like was on the tip of my tongue and then like a week later remembering what the thing was, um, that makes me feel like a kid. And I miss that a lot.
Ann: Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. And I think like being asked to consider this question is also really healthy in terms of like the control that we can exercise over some of this stuff, you know, like I, I really appreciate, I appreciate the prompt because at this point it's so ingrained in how we live. It's almost like, like what do you mean? Like things we don't have because of the internet , you know what I mean? It's just like, it's just so interwoven.
Aminatou: Yeah. Someone on the internet was making this point the other day. Like, you know, like thinking that they were really clever that, you know, from like 1970, 1971 to like 2000, 1979 to 2000 is the same timeframe as like 2000 to 2021. And I was like, well, that's true. But it's also like, you know, 2000 to 2021 is a massive internet era, you know? And so time does not feel the same, you know, like we went from like, from like, like you could be a bozo on the apprentice to like, you could be a bozo in the white house. Like that's like, what's going on here. And, and a lot of that is like fueled through the, the rise of like, like mass communication and internet. And I like, I don't know. And I, I am like definitely one for, I, I think that like the technology has made our lives better, like overall net positive, but you're right that like, there are a lot of like social expectations that we have of each other, that completely collapsed. And there are also experiences that you'll never have again from like, you know, it, I, and, and none of it is super, like I said, it's not like super romantic, but I do remember that, like, it's like, you're trying to download a song on dialup. And then at the last minute your parent picks up the phone and like messes up or like, no, you were like, that was like 19 hours trying to get that one Britney Spears song. Like, you know, those moments were like frustrating and so dumb. But now like everything is accessible, you know, at the, at the tip of your fingers. And I do appreciate that, but some of it, I also don't, I don't love what it does to my brain all the time. Like as someone who I read a lot on a tablet, if I'm reading for work, not for pleasure. I noticed that I never remember the name of a book because I'm not confronted with the cover of, at all of the time, you know? And I was like, oh yeah. That's what, like, tell reading has done for me. Like, but do I enjoy like, not having to lug like 19 books everywhere I go. Of course. And I would like do it over and over again. But it's small things like that, that I, I don't remember until I'm like forced to think about. And it's like, oh, like, life is different.
Ann: That's so funny. I think the equivalent for me is I don't ever remember song names or album titles. It's like, oh, I'll listen to that album and I'll know the artist's name, but like those details that—
Aminatou: Doja Cat, Doja Cat, like Doja Cat is the queen of like, love your music. I'm not sure what a single song is. Could not name a single or one album. Can't tell you what, you know, like dosha cat looks like, but I love Doja cat. So thank you for your contribution to my daily life. But like, I cannot tell you anything about Doja cat beyond that.
Ann: That is seriously. Why like, like vibes, nomenclature is so important right now. Like the vibe of Doja Cat is like what we have as opposed to like concrete, concrete song titles. Like, I, I feel like you've really unlocked something for me about the prevalence of the idea of vibes in our day and age.
Aminatou: No, it's true. It's like I was looking at my Spotify Unwrapped and I was like, all this Doja Cat for real, like never chosen on purpose. Like here is Doja Cat in the top 10. Definitely. Like I can tell you for a fact that I've never looked up one of their songs. Um, and like here we are, you know, but I like, I appreciate the vibes culture as long as the vibes are good. It's, you know, it's all good.
Ann: Here, here we are. The other thing that I think about, um, when being confronted with this question is about how much modern creative advice and wellness advice and like how to be a healthy person in terms of like work life balance, heavy air quotes on that. How much of that advice is really about like countering the ways being connected online, pushes us to live, you know, like so much creative advice is like, turn off your phone and take a random walk or like you like pick up something like pick, pick up a random book. And like, you know, I don't know, like it's a lot more, I think like about undoing those easy access to culture and like easy access to like, you know, numb out entertainment. And I, I really had not thought until being prompted by this question, like how there is this like modern, creative advice industry that really, um, thrives because it is like providing counter advice to like what the internet makes easy.
Aminatou: Right. It's like the advice is really like, be bored more, you know what I mean? It's like just be, be bored more and don't drink from the fire hydrant of, you know, like online knowledge, just be bored more.
Ann: It's true. It's true. It's like, you know, maybe, maybe like, like think about actual publications or actual albums instead of just being like whatever the algorithm is serving.
Aminatou: Album, what is an album? ma'am who has time for an album when we have like vibes and like 15 second tick docs snippets.
Ann: I reject this. I'm gonna hang up with you, go put on a vibe.
Aminatou: Well, before you hang up here is Pamela Paul. And again, the book is called 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet and it's available wherever you buy books.
[interview begins]
Pamela: My name is Pamela Paul I'm editor of the New York Times book review and oversee books coverage at the times. And my most recent book is 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet.
Aminatou: Pamela, where are you finding the time to write when you're reading so many books that you have to write about for your other job? Tell me all the secrets.
Pamela: All the secrets are that I do nothing fun. I grossly neglect three children who are also full-time in addition to my full-time job. You know, I used to write on the train. So I have written, I think this is the fourth or fifth book since I came to the Times before that I worked from home in my pajamas and I could write whenever I wanted, I could also procrastinate whenever I wanted. Um, and since I've been at the Times, I added a commute to my life that enables me to write on the train. And the good thing about writing on the train is that you really, if, if you're confined to, to 37 minute segments to write a book a day, a you do not mess around and you can't, you know, you can't get up and clean the toilet or walk into the other room or decide to alphabetize something. There's no procrastinating on the train. And so you, you, you become very focused and highly disciplined. What happened in the middle of this book of course, was that there was this little pandemic, which ended my commute. Um, so the, then I basically removed, you know, sleep, television, movies, and play for my life. I subtracted those things. Um, and it was a very, uh, intense time.
Aminatou: Wow. Well, that sounds no fun to me, but the reading the book was very fun. So I, I hope that you have reintroduced all those things back into your life.
Pamela: Yes. I've slowly slipped back into television. I'm working on sleep. [laughter]
Aminatou: Well, will you tell me the story of kind of how the book came about, like why the hundred things that we've lost on the internet?
Pamela: You know, it has a few origin stories. One of the things is that, um, I am very high tech in my work life if I have to be as a journalist, as we all do. Um, and, um, but I am not as high tech in my personal life. And I realized that those were kind of deliberate choices. And so I wanted to write a little bit to kind of get at those choices and, and why one could make those choices. One of the things I think that's really interesting about tech technology is that technology of course, is an industry like any other, um, it's not a greater good necessarily, although it can do a lot of good and it does do a lot of good. I'm not like a, you know, I'm not a luddite, I feel like I'm obligated to say, um, but it's products and services that are sold to us. They're sometimes sold to us, um, as free in quotes. Of course we know they're not really free and they're often big costs like, you know, democracy, um, and privacy, but we have a choice about whether we adopt a new technology or not. Mm-hmm, generally speaking. And so that was one component. Another component is that with the internet, we are looking ahead, we're like five steps ahead, like, okay, slack, I'm using slack this way. I've just learned this, that there's this other thing. I feel five minutes behind. What do I need to know in order to be on top of it tomorrow and next week? And next month, like we're constantly in fast forward motion. And I wanted to take a step back and say, wait a minute. Not just, how did we get here, but what did we used to do before all this? Like, what did we do? You know, I landed last night at LaGuardia and I looked on my phone to find the baggage claim. And then I looked on my phone to get a lift. And then on the way home, I played spelling bee in the car, like what did I do before all those things, you know? And that was what I wanted to explore. I wanted to remember what it was in the before times and kind of capture that if possible in these hundred short chapters.
Aminatou: I mean, I think that that was what was so interesting about reading this book in a pandemic where we were bemoaning a different kind of before time. And you really confronted me with a before the pandemic, before time. And there were, there were real moments of, I like, you know, there were a couple times where I, I found myself really agreeing that I missed a lot of things. And then I would remember that, like in the moment of the pandemic, I specifically am like really happy for technology. I don't know how the people survived the 1918 pandemic. Like, I really, I was like, what did do people do when you were not zooming with each other halfway across, halfway across the land, but I guess, like I wonder, you know, the, the thing that I appreciated about your book is that there is no judgment really on, you know, what some of these things are, there are categories of things that you are like, well, you know, like life is better. Life is better now that we have tech and then there are other things we're like, well, I really miss the old thing. And I just like, wonder if you could talk a little bit about your process, you know, like really deciding, um, kind of like which way, which way to go.
Pamela: Yeah. I tried to be conscious of that because my perspective is only, you know, one perspective. Um, and I, and even though it's my perspective, my perspective changes all the time, depending on my mood, depending on the need. I mean, it's like something like losing your ticket, right. That sounds like, oh, that's cool. We don't ever have to lose our ticket anymore. Right. But then, you know, maybe sometimes you wanted to lose your ticket. Like maybe you sometimes wanted to have an excuse, be like, whoop, I can't go, I'm sorry. You know, lost my, I lost my ticket. It's too bad. Um, so I was conscious of the fact that even things that I don't like, for example, I am not an ereader person. Um, but there are lots of people. I don't have a tablet. I don't have an iPad. Like my husband, you know, always learn not to be like, do you want an iPad for Christmas? Cause I'm like, Nope, I do not want one. And if you get me one, I'll be upset. Um, but I'm also conscious of the fact that for example, for children on the spectrum, an iPad can be a really effective communication tool. I'm aware that for people who have trouble with our eyesight, enabling them to enlarge type on a screen, allows them to read in a way that they wouldn't be able to do, you know, other than large type books, I'm aware that for people with, um, whether reading disabilities or auditory disabilities, like having things that you can automatically make audio or, um, you know, to have them in a way that, that addresses whatever that reading difficulty might be, whether it's dyslexia or something else, like all of that is greatly enhanced by a tablet, by an ebook. And so it doesn't work for me, but it's good for someone else. So I wanted to just be sure that I was sort of trying to look at these things from various angles. It can't be comprehensive of course, but I think that all of the negative things like they can be positive or maybe not all of them, but, but some of them certainly can be, um, you know, like the designated driver, right? Like you don't need to designate a driver anymore. Like the one person who has to stay sober. Um, and so that's a great thing. Right? Cause everyone can go out and have whatever kind of fun they want. But if you talk to the parent of a teenager in, let's say LA, it's really kind of unnerving because then they're like, oh my God, like no one has to be responsible. There's no restraint. And I don't really know, you know, when my kids are coming home or how they're getting here, because they're all Ubering all the time. So I just try to kind of keep everything in that perspective.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean that, that notion that like everything didn't used to be better, it just used to be different. Um, and having to really talk about how that difference is just like shape has shaped all of our formative years. I think that that's an exercise that's like worth doing for people of all ages.
Pamela: Right? I mean, that said internally, I'm very old and I always have been. And so I tend to lean towards nostalgia and thinking things were better in many respects, at least with regard to technology. And it's also just to know it's, again, my personal preference is for things that are made out of paper.
Aminatou: I mean, things that are made out of paper, it isn't, it also just like proven that if you are touching the paper for people of a certain generation, at least like you retain the information better.
Pamela: It's true for everyone. It's true for everyone. There's a lot of research behind it. It, and you know, I didn't, I tried not to overload the book with research because I wanted it to be fun. Um, and so I had lots and lots of studies in there that I, I sort of gently, um, you know, scraped away, but there is research that, for example, when you hand write something, you both absorb and retain that information better even than when you to type it or keyboard it as they now say, um, when you read something in print, you absorb it and you retain it better than when you read it on screen. It's also, of course, easier to focus. And I think, you know, you ask even the most, um, pro tech person, if they focus better on screen or in print, they'll often that it it's easier in print because on screen, you're staring not only at the thing you're supposed to be staring at, but with the possibility of all these other things lurking there in the background, maybe there are other tabs, maybe they're enclosed windows, maybe they're in the icons at the bottom of your screen, but you know, there's all this other stuff that you could be looking at right now. Whereas if you sequester yourself in a room without your screens and just look at a book, you sort of dive in much more deeply.
[music]
Aminatou: Oh man, one of your essays has to do with filing cabinets. And it was, it was actually like shared with me by a friend who teaches computer science. And he was telling me this, um, like quite fascinating thing and it's distressing for him and for people who teach computer science. But for me, I was like, oh, wow. Um, where he was basically explaining to me that one of the challenges of like modern, um, you know, like teaching of computer science is that the kids today do not have a reference for filing cabinets. So that analogy is completely lost on them because they've grown up in the world of iOS where you never need, you never really had to learn how to look for things or how to file them away. Like we had to, and there was something about that that was like, really, it was both like sad and also like really eye opening because he was telling me that like in order to teach the, um, he has to explain to them what the filing cabinet does, but none of them have grown up with filing cabinets. So they, they literally don't understand why you would need like an appendiflex and like to hide right. That way. And I was like, oh wow. Like this is not, you know, like it, I guess like that, that example is so fascinating to me because it's really wild that in his line of work, there is not a better analogy for explaining the thing that he needs to explain. You know, and at the same time for the kids that they were just like, really have not been exposed to this. And I was like, oh wow. Like the world really is marching on, in ways that are terrifying.
Pamela: I love that you used the phrase kids today before I did cuz then that goes me like a pass to use it maybe once or twice in the rest of this conversation. But it is interesting. I mean there are of course files online and they were modeled after actual, I don't know. I don't think that the icons still look like that. I think they've moved on from, uh, oh, well, no, actually they do. I think they still do. They still look like, and people must be like, that's such an interesting shape who like, are, you know, digital natives. Like I wonder why there's a little bump up there, which of course is the tab, um, on a manila folder. Um, but when it's online and it, and it is really easy in certain ways to be organized on a computer, of course, because there is this F simile of filing, but it's opaque, right. You see the front of the file, then you have to click in it to see the other files and then keep clicking and clicking. And I think, especially for people who have a kind of visual orientation, um, and, and a visual mind and a kinetic kind of learning too, the physical putting of things in places, and then seeing that geography that in your mind is really helpful in terms of remembering things like you remember. Oh yeah. That was in that really crumply manila folder. That was in the folder. That was all the way in the back. Oh, I remember when I put that in, I got a papercut on my thumb, you know, it's those kinds of cues, those that enable us to retain that information. And I think, you know, for many people it's easier to be organized that way.
Aminatou: Yeah. I just wonder if like the child of the future who didn't know up with any of these things, if they will need that. Like I wonder, and I have no idea.
Pamela: Well, I think it's clear that it's changing the way that all of us think, not just digital natives, but like we are such habit oriented creatures. We people, I mean, even now in the pandemic we've created, I think all of us, all different kinds of new habits around working from home. If we are working from home around remote work, there is all this stuff that happens in the zoom now that doesn't happen in a regular meeting that feels like second nature. For example, when you're in a zoom, if you are in a workplace that has like an internal messaging system, like slack, or even just Google chat, you're probably talking on the side, right, with other people in the zoom, unbeknownst to whoever sort of officially speaking in the zoom. Um, and that is like a whole new way of having a meeting. And I wonder when we go back to real meetings, like, are we gonna miss the fact that we can't be like, will he shut up already? You know, like we can't have that side come conversation anymore, but we quickly become habituated to it. I mean, even honestly the remote work, I think obviously people have become so habituated to it that many people are reluctant to return to an office. We just, we're such creatures of habit.
Aminatou: I mean, we really are, I guess, like, can you tell me a little bit more about why you think it's so, um, it's important to notice this difference? Like what, like what fundamentally, like, what is it about?
Pamela: Well, for one thing, I think that technology has been changing at such a rapid pace and in so many different arenas from work to dating, to vacation, to family relationships, to education, it's so much happening at once that I don't think we have like our bodies or our minds have caught up with it. It's impossible to. Like if you think about human beings as an animal, right, that has evolved over time, there are many aspects to our physical selves and to our brains that still date back to like our hunter gatherer phase, you know, like our, our, our, um, adrenaline that we have when we are sort of, um, or flight response, when we feel endangered, like comes from back then. And I don't think that our bodies or our minds have in any way adapted in this short period to the internet. I mean, just think about, for example, what you go through emotionally in one day online because experiencing things directly, and then you're experiencing them in your social networks. So you could wake up right. And find out like, oh my God, it's the first anniversary of my best friend's uncle's death. And they were really close and here's a little thing she's posting about it on social media. And then you go to another window and you see, like everyone is attacking this thing I wrote that I was really proud of online, and now I feel bad about that. And then you go somewhere else and you're like, oh my gosh, my third grade teacher just friended me on, you know, followed me on Instagram. And isn't that so nice. And you're just cycling through like this incredible number of emotions. Like it's, it's a lot that by the end of the day, I think we just feel exhausted.
Aminatou: I mean, it's exhausting, it's too much emotion, but it's also too much information. Like we're not supposed to, we're not supposed to know this many number of people we're not supposed to have, be so clued into every minute of the day of people that we know. Like, it's just, it's very strange to just have that lack of privacy, you know, something that—
Pamela: And, and so in depth too, right? Like, remember, like when I think about reunions, right? There's a reason why you may have only stayed in touch with like three kids that you went to elementary school with, but now we're in touch with all of them. And not only are we in touch with all of them, but we know like really intimate details about their lives, you can go down a whole rabbit hole and then suddenly sort of come to your senses and be like, wait a minute, why am I watching this person who was in my fourth grade class, her kid playing violin? Like I would, I would never, you know, if like that person reached out to me and said, would you like to come to my son's violin concert? You'd be like, are you crazy? We haven't spoken since fourth grade. And yet here you are. And you're like, oh, he's really good at the violin. You know, it's weird.
Aminatou: It's just, it's too much, you know, like a really evocative memory that like reading your book, like brought up for me are just like the number of hours I used to spend at the library as a child. Um, I was a kid who was not, um, I wasn't super into making friends with other people. I just loved to read because it was my escape in so many ways. And now reading has become work. I still enjoy doing it, but I do feel robbed of just that. Or like, I'm bored. I'm going to read feeling that I used to have. And, and I think, you know, we, we hear this, I've heard this a lot from like so many people in the pandemic too, that like, you know, the, a different kind of boredom is like robbing them from reading. Now, I guess my question for you is for, for people who, because I don't think that it, this it's for everyone, it's like, they're they, any things that like rob you of hours in your day, but for people who wanna get back to reading for pleasure, what kind of practical advice would you have for them in like how to foster that? And particularly people who would like their children to read more?
Pamela: Wow. Well, um, so I wrote a book called How to Raise a Reader. I co-wrote it with our former children's book editor and thought about this a lot. Because, um, well, there are many things. Two of the chapters in the book, one is about the school library, which of course has been pretty decimated. Um, and many schools don't even have a full-time librarian anymore. And they've been sort of, the spaces have been converted into what are now called media centers, where there are computers. Um, and it's, it's natural that kids are going to be drawn to the computers when they're in the same room. It's sort of like here is some candy and then here is a little bit harder sort of to digest broccoli, um, over here on the, on the bookshelves. I think it's also another chapter is the bookish boy, because I think that for a cerebral curious boy, the internet offers a lot of the things that books used to deliver or, and still do to those who continue to read. But it's for fact, finders for visual readers, for kids that love statistics, like they used to read joke books and sports books and baseball card collecting books, and, you know, and, um, and that really is better served in many ways, uh, online. And so they're not as drawn. I think that there are a few things that parents can do. Um, one is of course, to read aloud to your child, one of the most important things, but also to look around your home and see the places where technology is accessible and present, and then look at the places where books are present. So if you, you know, one of the, as I said earlier, one of the things I wanted to point out in this book is that we have choices here and parents have choices and power to make those choices for their kids. They don't often use them necessarily. And I understand why I'm a parent of three kids. It's hard, but you can choose, for example, to only have computers in one room at the house, you can choose to have, um, a TV slash computer. Since it's often one in the same, only in one room of the house. And you can choose to have books everywhere in the house. And if you have a lot of books and you make sure that you have a constant flow of books in the house or in the home, in the apartment, then you are ensuring that your children are exposed to that possibility. And it's really hard for a child to say they're or bored if they're in a room, surrounded by books. So there are two factors that, um, are really significant in determining whether a child grows up to be a lifelong reader. That is someone who chooses to read among all the other leisure options that they have. One of those is being read to. So that's throwing out the carrot really early showing, like this is really fun. This is a warm and great activity that you can do with your parents or your caregivers that is full of, you know, love and creativity and, you know, great storytelling. And the other factor is the number of books in the home. And that sounds like that just means that you're wealthy because you can and buy a lot of books, but it doesn't, it's controlling for income. And you can get those books, whether they're at libraries, just borrowed or purchased at a library sale, or, you know, used books bought elsewhere. There are so many ways that you can get those books if you have them all over the house. I mean, in the bathroom because people will read in the bathroom and wouldn't you rather, your kid be reading in the bathroom—
Aminatou: We weren’t allowed to read in the bathroom in my house. That was like a big, no, no, no, no.
Pamela: Oh really? Now it's like no reading on the iPad.
Aminatou: As an adult, I've carried that over. And it's the one place where I refuse to have books or reading material.
Pamela: But our device is allowed in there?
Aminatou: No, definitely not.
Pamela: Okay. Nothing.
Aminatou: Because my mom was just thinking about the bathroom was a disgusting place where you should not take books or, um, devices. Certainly not.
Pamela: All right. Well, I guess our house is a little bit less proper, but, uh, we have books in the bathroom.
Aminatou: I was always jealous of those kids, especially like the comic books. And so, yeah, just like hearing you say that is very much, like, we all share these like very formative experiences, you know? And so I, it's been interesting just like going back to, to thinking so much about what, like what activity or experiences the internet has robbed us of, you know? Yeah. Whether you miss it or not.
Pamela: And the other thing is, you know, if the internet is, is getting in the way of your kids, reading, you do as the parent have the power, I know it's really hard. And it, this is obviously up to the individual parent, but you do have the power to limit the amount of time that your children spend online. You do have the power to limit at what age they get their own, we call it a phone. But of course it's not really a telephone. It's a portable internet. Um, you do have the power to, um, delay that, uh, that decision. Um, so there are things that you can do. They're just really hard. I'm not denying that they're hard, but you have to kind of make the judgment call, you know, based on your own circumstances and your kid and your family about whether, you know, when you think that's the right thing to do.
Aminatou: Can you tell me about things that you like those activities or experiences that the internet has robbed you specifically of like, what are the things that you miss?
Pamela: So one of them is an experience that I had that was really transformative for me. That's kind of a one time thing, but I feel really, it, it, it makes me incredibly sad that it's hard to replicate and the other is a constant thing. So the one time thing is that after college, I made the decision, uh, to move to another country, not to a major city. I didn't know anyone. I didn't know. I didn't have friends. I didn't have a job. I had no prospects. I, you know, worked over the summer, brought a little pile of cash and just made my way. And I was out of touch with everyone who I'd gone to school with, with my family. I didn't have, there were no cell phones. This was just before were, you know, the, the internet. I think I came back and, and two years later, you know, AOL kind of started its thing and it was really hard. I felt totally alone. I felt completely disconnected. It forced me to really make my own way in a way that I hadn't really had to do in college where you actually, there was a lot of structure there and you're surrounded by people. Um, and I think that was a really important experience, honestly. Um, it even just like the little specifics of it. I mean, I went to Thailand, I had these cassettes that I listened to, to learn the language before I got there. And they were like cassettes that had been developed for, I think, people in, in the armed forces. So the questions, you know, they, they taught you where is the airfield and is it a comedy or a tragedy. Um, that was the kind of, you know, language that I learned. And I was like, just, just tell me to ask where the bathroom is and I'll be good. Um, but, uh, now of course, or you could just bring your phone and just like Google translate. And I actually think some of the experiences of not being able to communicate with someone who speaks another language, I think that's a really great exercise to have to go through. I mean, you learn that you actually, it's funny in, at the time I remember, I would say like, oh yes, I was talking to someone in Ang Ko Wat in Cambodia and blah, blah, blah. And then I realized, well, no, actually we weren't talking because this was a person who was Cambodian, who spoke no English. And I spoke no Khmer. And, um, so we didn't talk, we did something with our hands gesturing, we communicated, but that of course doesn't have to happen. And it wouldn't happen cuz you have translators on your phone and you can listen to pronunciations and you can, you know, it's made it easier. But I think that in the long run it makes certain kinds of things harder. So that's a kind of one time thing. And I think it gets hard to replicate. So it, it makes me feel sad for young people, but anyone who wants to try that kind of thing, because even if you bring, even if you don't bring a phone, even if you don't bring the internet, the internet is there and you know that it's there and you can go to an internet cafe or a library or university you can log on. You can. And it’s just a different experience knowing that it's there, should you need it? It's a different experience when there is nothing there and you know that you don't have it.
Aminatou: That's so true. What is the other thing?
Pamela: So the other thing is a constant, which is, it's really hard for me to be in one place at one time, mentally, intellectually, because the internet is like constantly having a hoard of people knocking at your door, like whistling, ringing the door, you know, ringing your bell, ringing the phone. Um, there's all this stuff out there constantly. And it intrudes on your concentration and it pulls you out of any given moment. And I'm not a particularly Zen person to begin with, but like if I'm walking to work say right on 41st street in the real world, in the normal world, that's where I am and my mind may wander. But what happens now is I'm walking and I'm texting at the same time because I am an idiot and I'm gonna like break my leg, but I do it because you always have to be like, if the thing is there or you should be using it. And then I remember one time, a couple years ago, I'm walking along and I'm thinking about whoever I'm texting and I'm about to get to work. And then the phone for whatever algorithmic reason sent me a photo. And it's like, you have a new memory, right? You get those messages every once in a while on an iPhone. And it's such a weird message. It's like really science fiction. It's like, what do you mean I have a new memory and why did the algorithm decide that right now I needed to see this. And it's always really random. It's not even necessarily like on this day four years ago. But the memory that it gave me was of a trip to the Sydney zoo that I'd taken while going to the Sydney book festival in 2017. And it's like, suddenly I'm thrust back to that moment and what I was feeling at that moment and why, why should that intrude upon this morning where I'm walking on 41st street? Like I'm now in two places at once mentally and emotionally and just my attention. And it's really hard to recuperate that.
Aminatou: That's so true. My thing is that I, so I read on a tablet. If I have to read for work, I read for pleasure real books. But if I have to read for work every once in a while, I will read a tablet on the tablet. And the reason it makes me so upset is because I never remember the names of the books because you don't, you're not confronted with the, the, the cover page all the time. Right? So that makes me, it makes me so mad when someone asks me what I'm reading and I can explain to them what the book is. I can tell them who the author is. And I never remember what the book is called because I don't see it.
Pamela: Right. And you don't have the visual cue of like, of the cover and like the tactile feel of it, the weight of the book.
Aminatou: I know, but I'm like, there's gotta be a way for technology to solve that. Please always display the cover. And also, I really, when I, when I'm on the train now and people are always reading their Kindles or whatever, it also makes me sad because I used to get at all of my book recs from being on the subway, just being like, I seen four different people reading this thing today. And so that's how I, that's how I knew what the hot book was, um, around town. But it's very, um, yeah, I don't know. It's just been, you've given me a lot to think about.
Pamela: Thank you. I mean, the subway experience has changed in so many ways. Right? I think about it all the time. Not only can you not snoop at what people are reading, right. But also nobody looks up at you when you walk in the, in the, um, you know, into the car, like, think about the misconnections, remember missed connections. It used to be in like free weeklys then it was on Craigslist, but now it's just like, who even notices anyone anymore. And if you bump into someone and you say, excuse me, they have AirPods in because they're listening to a podcast and they don't hear you. And they just glare at you. And you're like I said, excuse me, you just didn't hear it.
Aminatou: I will say that for anybody who's interested in people reading, um, on the subway, the Instagram subway book review is very charming. Um, and also speaking of charming, Pamela, your book was very fun and funny. I think it's such a, I always admire anybody who can write in a funny voice. Uh so thank you so much for doing that. And yeah, I think I'm gonna spend the rest of the day thinking about the things that the internet has robbed me of. Thank you.
Pamela: Okay. Well, I hope they are. I hope they are pleasant, thoughts, those, those stolen things.
Aminatou: They're generally always pleasant thoughts or, you know, or you, or you find a way to bring that other thing back. Like that's what I was excited about. You know, just thinking about like the library and thinking about this thing with the subway or whatever, I was like, oh, there are ways to replicate those experiences. I think that what makes me sad is that I forgot how much those, how pleasurable those things were because they seem regular now.
Pamela: You know, well, bring the pleasurable things back in your life.
Aminatou: I know. Well, bring that back. I would like to be unreachable even more unreachable.
[interview ends]
Aminatou: I love a little like nostalgia tour. And I love, I love really like profound thinking of about like very trivial seeming things like that makes me very happy.
Ann: I just found myself thinking about what is the like pre-internet equivalent of our show sign off. It's like, okay. Like if we were doing this show in a pre-internet era, I would be like, I will talk to you on an expensive, long distance phone call at some point in the next month.
[laughter]
Aminatou: It's like, I'll send you a phone car to call me.
Ann: Oh my God. Yes or I will, I will buy an expensive ticket.
Aminatou: I mean. Honestly, it would just be like, see, see you down at it'll be like, see you down at the park if we were lucky.
Ann: But like, we are not lucky enough to share our part.
Aminatou: I know. I see you when I see you. Oh man. See you when I see you.
Ann: It would be devastating. Absolutely devastating.
Aminatou: Okay. Well I gotta go. And also you have memes that you need to send me, so like please catch up on your memes, sending to me and, and uh, yeah. And it's like cold New York City night. So I am going to bed, my friend. I, um, I'll see you when I see you. But before that, I'll see you on the internet.
Ann: All right. I'll see you. When I see you,
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.