Bad Behavior
8/6/21 - From Matt Damon to Andrew Cuomo to gender testing at the Olympics, we do a quick survey of men in the news behaving badly.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: BAD BEHAVIOR
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Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On today's agenda. We are talking about some bad behavior. Matt Damon using slurs, Andrew Cuomo doing terrible things in the New York governor's office and the international Olympic committee up to its same terrible shenanigans. When it comes to gender testing.
[theme song]
Ann: Hello?
Aminatou: How's it going over there?
Ann: No, lizzarding out. It's hot here right now and I'm moving slowly. Um, what about you?
Aminatou: I don't know why I decided that August would be the perfect time to do spring cleaning.
Ann: It’s because every month is the right time to do a deep clean, I feel like you were, the siren song of the deep clean temps you often.
Aminatou: Well, you know what it is, it's refusing to move out of my small space into a bigger space means that I am constantly confronted with like having to make choices, but this is the serious like that, like the drapes are down and like getting washed the like walls are getting like clean, like everything is getting cleaned.
Ann: So that's why it sounds like you're coming to me from an empty room.
Aminatou: Yes. Because literally I am coming to you from an empty room, oh yeah.
Ann: I gotta say--
Aminatou: It's been a lot.
Ann: My like crafty corner of TikTok served me a video recently of someone who, um, stripped the fabric off of a vintage couch that they had had for like a decade and wanted to keep it and like, so it, and so the first step in this process, after getting it off the couch was washing it. And there was a, there was like, they cut to this upholstery that had been on a couch for a decade, like sitting in water in the tub. And I like made me not want to sit on any of my furniture forever. Like you, I didn't send it to you because it would have made you want to jump out of your skin.
Aminatou: Well, it's not making me one to jump out of my skin because, um, I got, uh, like industrial, like level steamer to steam clean all my furniture. So you were talking to that person.
Ann: Um, so the only thing in your room is, in fact, an industrial steam cleaner and you.
Aminatou: Like this thing is bigger than me. Um, but it was so satisfying to like clean the couch with it. And I was like, oh yeah, look at these like, things that you didn't know were stains were lifting. It was very exciting. Um, I'm doing all of this to procrastinate on the actual work I have to do. Um, so it's, yeah, I'm just like, my, my apartment will never be cleaner than, um, the, like then, uh, the now, because of all the deadlines I'm confronted with between now and labor day.
Ann: Yeah. A deep truth, a deep truth. And I, I am sort of in the opposite place where I'm trying to take like a slow August. Like not just because of the heat, but because it's like a good time for me to take a work pause and, um, my house is extra dirty. Like the inverse of the principle is true. Like it really like you're right. Like never cleaner than when there's something better to do. And never dirtier than when I have literally nothing better to do than clean my house.
Aminatou: Ooh. What are we talking about today?
Ann: I mean, men behaving badly, I feel like is, is really the unifying theme of today's episode. Would you agree?
Aminatou: Oh, I mean, I think that that's fair, but at the same time I'm laughing because I'm like checking in with the men. Like I have not done that in a long time. It's a confluence of just a lot of news has happened.
Ann: Um, it's true. We try to live our lives, like in, in like, you know, or at least our editorial CYG lives in a bubble where we get to decide what's important. And the answer to that is rarely men. And then sometimes they intrude on the bubble and it's like, we, we have to talk about them.
Aminatou: I know it's, um, it's very funny. Well, let's start in a really easy, um, like ridiculous place. I saw a tweet earlier today that made me laugh so hard. Um, tell him it was, uh, it said when Affleck rises, Damon must fall, this is the balancing universe. [laughter] And thank you, thank you to that Twitter person, because I really do. I needed that laugh today. Um, I won't get into how just like annoyed I am by Bennifer 1.0 nostalgia. So let's tackle the Matt Damon of it all. The thing that like, there, there are certain celebrities that I am always like perpetually baffled by and he is of them because he is truly at this like super Matt Damon, that is like, is it this like, you know, like very famous, like, very, very, very famous person, like level. And so, but I guess, like also, and also like very private, right? Like you never hear from him anytime I see his name in the news, I was like, someone has a new movie out and then that's literally what's going on. It's like he has a movie out. So of course we have to all go through it. We have to all suffer through the, like the interview process for this movie. And I, um, I, I was like, I kept seeing his name and headlines, but I was also refusing to engage with them. And when I finally saw what all the headlines were saying, my jaw was on the floor because it was basically like, um, you know, like Matt Damon says that he's no longer using the F words slur. And you're like, sir, 2021? are you like, are we, are we, are we talking about the same, like derogatory F-word? But more importantly, I was like, why are you even admitting to this? Like, it just felt really I was going a little nuts and I was not understanding what was going on here. And, um, by the time that I could like catch up with this, like a weird, um, Matt Damon is literally admitting to people that he is, uh, saying homophobic slurs. The next minute, all of the headlines were Matt Damon 100% disavows ever saying homophobic slurs and it's clarifying that he's never used them before. And this new cycle, it is annoying to me. And I'm baffled by it for so many reasons. Like one, first of all, like, you know, who is trying to get a pat on the back in 2021, because they're not using slurs, sir, relax. And then number two, the whiplash of it all is also like very interesting. I was like, well, why are you now angry about headlines that you generated yourself? Like the only reason that anybody thought that you weren't using these homophobic slurs is because you volunteered the information that you were no longer using them. And this was like further, it's one of my favorite conspiracy theories that in Hollywood, at least certain publicists are trying to ruin the lives of their clients. And I have a long to believe that his publicist was trying to ruin his life, but you know, the thing it's also made me think of, Ann, like, forget, like just this like controversy, which to be clear is very gross. And first of all, like no straight cis person should be trying to like score points off of doing the bare minimum of being like a good human being. But also it's like, why do we even care about this person? But something that I realized is I was like, oh, part of why I'm annoyed by this new cycle is because every single time he has a movie out, there is some level of controversy with him, you know? So whether it's like, oh, he's like, he's like whitewashing the stories that he tells and he's indulging in these like white savior tropes, because he does like Chinese movies. There was also some controversy with him where he basically tried to mansplain, um, a black filmmaker about how diversity works in Hollywood.
Ann: Oh yeah. I remember that.
Aminatou: Yeah. Like that was awful. And also, I remember like in the, like on the hottest days on the block of the Me Too movement starting, I remember that there was a time where he literally, he commented on Al Franken and he said that serial sexual harassers shouldn't have to resign. Um, if they're, um, if they're just like a little handsy with women, because it's very different than raping women and yeah. And I was just like, first of all, shut up, like first thing, second of all, who is letting this man say all of these things, but at the same time, like the reason that I've been thinking about all these, these things is because everyone keeps like, complaining about cancel culture and how no one's allowed to say anything anymore. And you know, like it just, everyone is scared. And I was like, clearly, Matt, Damon's not scared. He is out here all the time saying wild things. And he gets dragged publicly for them. And yet he persists and I was like, oh, like what's going on here? And so I've just been really thinking about like, about that. And my, my conclusion really is that like, he, someone who was not very online and because he doesn't comment all the time and he never really, he lets the dragging happen and he never goes to, he never like faces the allegations and never in a position to be reactionary. This is why he's surviving. But I was like, this is instructive on so many levels for me. And you know, and I'm like, and I'm not watching that movie that he's done. And I'm annoyed by the whole thing.
Ann: I have to tell you that, um, I, I obviously take no pleasure in a powerful and famous person copping to using like really hateful slurs, but he's walk back. Like, you know, the story was basically that, like he used this slur in a joke and the direct quote is that his daughter quote, she left the table. I said, come on, that's a joke. And then the article goes on to explain that, like she wrote him this like letter explaining why the word is bad and dangerous. And then Matt Damon said, quote, I retire the F slur. I understood. And then the, the, the thing the next day was like, no, no, no. Actually the conversation was me explaining to my daughter why this is a slur and it's bad. Like it was a complete 360. He was like, awakening.
Aminatou: You're lying about something. You're either lying. Cool dad, uh, or you like lied about using a slur to tell a story, to make yourself sound woke, which all of these things are bad.
Ann: And that's the thing. That's what I was going to say is like, you know, the original anecdote was you're right. I mean, it's like the most like, totally off, like clearly someone who has been insulated from having to engage with like the politics of literally anything for years. But, you know, it was told clearly as this, like, let me give you a charming anecdote about how I'm a cool dad and I have a personal awakening and I'm like an average, you know? And, and then the next day to be like, it was not a personal awakening, um, cracked me up. And then he also had this line that like the media angle is so funny to me where, um, he basically blames it on like Twitter and clickbait culture where he gave this quote where he said “20 years ago, the best way I can put it is that the journalists listened to the music more than the lyrics of an interview. Now your lyrics are getting parsed. So pull them out of context and get the best headline possible.” And it's like, so the headline on this original article, here's the punchline of this joke is not Matt Damon until very recently used a homophobic slur. The headline was “Is Matt Damon the last of Hollywood's leading men” Question mark. It's like, I was like, wow, like really, actually a much deeper headline that kind of gets to the heart of like, should this person be allowed to have this much power in the industry? Not like a click-baity headline at all. I'm like, you know, we can easily look up the headline on this original article, right? Like it's, it is not like someone failed the music you were trying to play was I had a personal awakening and I'm a cool dad. And in fact, like it was a sour note and that just like own, own up to it, like own up to that, not just like, oh God, like this is embarrassing and awful. But like, I don't know, this man is from Boston. He's a Gen X-er from Boston. Like that slur has left his mouth. Like there's a high probability, right?
Aminatou: Say no more white man, a white man, gen X they're from Boston.
Ann: I'm sorry. I'm sorry to laugh about it. A whole category of people, but like, I'm just like, let's just look at the odds here.
Aminatou: You know, I don't want to laugh about it, but it's true. But you know, like not to defend the media all the time because certainly entertainment media does not deserve, um, does not deserve a defense. There is something so completely disingenuous about volunteering information yourself and then playing the victim for how your words are interpreted. It's like, sir, you are a grownup who should be precise. You are literally engaged in the work of publicity right now. None of this is a surprise. And so there's something just so cynical and sinister about that. That makes me so annoyed. And yet here we are.
Ann: I mean, it's not like a paparazzo jumped out of a bush and captured this conversation with him and his child. You know what I mean? Like this is something that he like told because he thought it would, I mean, like what is a PR tour, but like something designed to make you look good. You were telling stories that you think are gonna make people feel excited to see you as a leading man. And you're right. It's not like this is like an oops or like something that's like dug up from like a private correspondence, even then it would not be okay obviously. But like you're a hundred percent right. That this is like something that he thought was, I don't know, gonna really show, um, show some positive side of him. And it's like, oh sir. Oh sir.
Aminatou: Right, right. And here's the other thing about this movie that he's in actually Still Water is that the director volunteered the information? Um, well the director and Matt Damon like volunteered the information that the movie is loosely based on Amanda Knox's story and
Ann: Oh god, that whole thing.
Aminatou: So again, you know, it's like welcome to publicity. It's like, you make one wrong, move, doing your beautiful thing in Vanity Fair. And next thing you know, like we have 27 media cycles and to Amanda Knox's credit. She is someone who has gone through a terrible ordeal and has come out on the other side of it, like really trying to use her own voice and trying to, to really like tell her own story and push back against the exploitation. But I was reading this like Twitter thread that she had written, I think it was last weekend actually. Um, yeah. Yeah. Where she, and I think she wrote a medium post actually that we should just link to in the show notes where she really addresses the director for, um, you know, like basically admitting that he made a movie about her experience without reaching out to her. And now they're using her name to promote the movie. And these are the questions that should be asked of Matt Damon during the press tour. This is so much more salient than the garbage that he's volunteering and go like gossip media, and celebrity media, you know, we dismiss it all the time. And I was like, yeah, it's like, I have learned 19 different things from like, and one annoying, um, Matt Damon faux pas.
Ann: Yeah, I know. And then, and then also like, I mean, I did not click on any of these, but of course then there were the op-eds that were like, how could we be even talking about canceling Matt Damon now? And it's like, first of all, no one has used that word. No one is like, like, you know, dead to us forever. Like, I think that like, there is also this, like the defense machine kicks into gear, even when everyone is like, yeah, this is the worst. And he is kind of the worst. And let's all just acknowledge that, you know what I mean? Like there is like, there's something about the, kind of like the charity that he benefits from and the like benefit of the doubt that is not afforded to so many people in our society. And like seeing that gap and seeing those op-eds like instantly spring to his defense for this like completely unforced error. I'm just like, that is also like a layer of this that makes me so irate.
Aminatou: Right? Like this man keeps stepping into it and only keeps doing more and like bigger work. And I was, when I was reading the New York Times profile of him, they address like they addressed a little, well, they prophetically like address some of this in the sense where, um, the profile was saying that, you know, like not having social media quotes, according to the times is in the last of that line of people who want to maintain privacy.
Ann: Ugh...
Aminatou: And so, exactly right. So it's like, well, first of all, like he has, he has like the privilege of not having to sing for his supper, which is great. Like every single one of should aspire to that for work. But again, um, when I put on my like bad publicist hat from like a long time ago, I was like, well, yeah, this is how you sidestep, like all of these issues, like all the artists were always like, we're so scared. Like we can't say the homophobic and racist things anymore. How are we going to work? It's like, no, no, what you, you can say, whatever you want, you just have to avoid spaces where people will hold you accountable. And it turns out that it's actually very easy to avoid those spaces and most people in public life do.
[music]
Aminatou: Okay. Who else is behaving badly?
Ann: Yeah, who else are we frustrated with?
Aminatou: My governor is behaving so badly.
Ann: Ooh, we should start a support group. I mean, look, look like most governors are behaving badly, but like wow, New York is really right now, like in it.
Aminatou: I know I am also like the, all the people who call themselves cuomoosexuals during the pandemic should start a support group and never show their faces in public because the North remembers.
Ann: I hope those people have like auto deleting tweets because anyone who used the phrase homosexual is like, right. Like, yeah. I, I, I'm proud to say I, I was never even remotely interested.
Aminatou: Proud to say that you're not into creeps?
Ann: Yeah, I know. Right. I mean, look like, like sexuality is a vast and wild and difficult to understand thing. Um, but like, yeah, I am not into creeps.
Aminatou: I mean, I, um, okay. So let's talk about the governor of New York, Andrew M Cuomo. Um, the M stands for man, um, that's going on here? Like I just, I cannot, because, so basically what happened, um, as you know, is that the State Attorney General's office released a report that finds that he has sexually harassed multiple women, um, during his term as governor. And this report was commissioned in part because women publicly accused him of harassment, which he denied and the machine went after these women. And so the report is commissioned. The report comes out and the report like nails him to the wall. Like he has done all the things that the women publicly accused him of doing a couple of months ago and more things that we were not aware of. And again, like this sinister part of this for me is that everyone is calling for this man to resign. And so far he is resisting that he is not budging. And in fact, he is like pushing back against, um, in the face of a lot of evidence is pushing back, um, on people who have credibly accused him with reports that have been corroborated, you know, and the other part of this like Cuomo story is I've been reading the report, I'm only a third of the way in, and, um, the harassment is like all, yeah, it's, you know, like harassment is not sophisticated. It's just, it's truly like the same like gross stuff over and over again to the point where it's a cliche. And, but there was something about all of the examples that are given in here that make it so clear. The thing that we've been talking about forever, that this kind of harassment is not necessarily about sexual domination. It is about just bullying and dominating people. It is about having a different kind of power dynamic. And so, Ann, like going through the details of this man, just like completely trying to destabilize women that work in and around him, like trying to creep them out, trying to have one up on them. It has absolutely nothing to do with like any kind of sexual connection that he has with them. It is really about asserting himself as a dominance, like alpha male in any environment and in the process, like ruining the lives of so many people who just want to get their job done.
Ann: Ugh. I know. And like that part of it too, um, that is the like absolute heartbreaking part of, you know, not just the message that it sends to people who have endured this kind of abuse, um, at the hands of bosses and other like, you know, powerful people who should not have that power. Um, not only does it make the people who have endured that, like feel more alone or less empowered to say anything or do anything, um, you know, like how, how we collectively respond to this. Like we are creating the precedent in real time, you know, like, that's the thing that I'm thinking about. And I'm thinking about how, like, you know, when he says like, basically like, oh, I'm just Italian American, which first of all, I'm sorry to all Italian Americans for him, like, you know, painting you this way. But like him basically being like, it's cultural, like people just don't understand my culture. And it's like, well, you know, like, like I don't agree with the interpretation that this is specific to his ethnic background, but I do feel like as a cultural thing, like, yeah, like he has created a culture around himself where he is fully empowered to do whatever he wants. And as you say, like exert this like really particular and disgusting kind of dominance. And it's like, I don't know. There's something about when I see that, excuse that like, it's a cultural misunderstanding. It's like actually weirdly it is about the culture, not the culture that you come from, but the culture that you create, right? Like please don't malign Italian Americans.
Aminatou: First of all, second of all, that, the other thing that really drives me up the wall in these stories is that is men expecting me to believe that of all people on the planet, men don't understand the difference between good touch, bad touch is I'm like, I'm sorry, your entire construct of masculinity is built around no one else touching you and you being the ones that touch other people. So, uh, let's talk about that. And the other thing here also, that is just so I was just like really interesting to read in the report is that the, um, the attorney general I can makes it really, really, really clear that the aides in the office like cultivated this really toxic work culture that revolved around fear and intimidation. And according to the report and quotes helps enable harassment to occur and created a hostile work environment. Rebecca Traister wrote about this for New York Magazine a couple of months ago, specifically the hostile work environment of the governor's office. And so many people, again like pushback, where they were like, well, no, he's a demanding boss. Like, this is how we do politics, you know? And the question is just like, at what price is this who we are? Is this how we want to live?
Ann: And also do you really think that is the best way?
Aminatou: Yeah. Yes. I'm like, what are the governors like, like what has the governor done, but is it so amazing that we like people's lives need to get ruined for him to like pass like middling legislation? Like, no, thank you. And also, you know, like I think like the other thing here that is that has been like really hard for me to process, like, going back to what you were saying earlier is also the idea that women are completely hysterical all the time, but specifically like women who have been harassed before, or women who have suffered sexual trauma also don't know the difference between, you know, like someone flirting with them or someone intimidating them or someone harassing them. And it's like, no, no, no. Actually, if you have survived any kind of sexual violence or you have sexual trauma in your past where you have even this kind of harassment, you're not like hypersensitive to men trying to like get in your space. You are hypervigilant for someone trying to take advantage of you and it's just sinister to just like, imply that where it's like, well, like again, like the man at the center of the, the wanting to be friendly and then wanting to have like a little bit of flirting at the office, like he knows better than everyone. I was like, what are we doing?
Ann: Yeah, yeah. We can do better.
Aminatou: We can definitely do better than Andrew Cuomo. That's for sure. Um, you know, and I think like the one thing that I have found that I have found heartening at least is that it's now like standard Democrat, like, um, like, uh, like get this man out of office. We're not in Franken territory and, you know, and it's probably because the examples are just, there's just so many of them there it's happening faster, but also you can't spend four years maligning a Republican president, you know, like in like, uh, recalling his own record of just, uh, rape and sexual abuse. And, and then like, let stuff like this fly on our side. So on one hand, I'm a little heartened by that. But on the other, I was like, this is still not enough because the conversation still really revolves around the fact that if we think that someone is powerful or they're good at their job, or that no one else could do it, that we have to endure this. And I was like, no, the pressure should be on men like Cuomo and on men who want to run for office to not be these kinds of people, because they're the ones that create the bottleneck.
Ann: And not only not be this kind of person, but like create an environment where like this kind of abuse is like unthinkable, right? Like, and, and, and that goes back to like my meandering thing about culture too. It's like, you know, if you already have a great deal of power, which like, who's going to argue that the governor of New York does not have a great deal of power, like it is your responsibility to not just not perpetuate abuse or like not tolerate it, but to like, actively think about how do I get this important work done in a way that is like antithetical to abuse. Like, that's like the thing too, where I'm like, can we have a little bit more like, um, imagination when it comes to how we address this stuff? Right. Like, I think that sometimes I feel so like bogged down by like, okay, here's another one. Here's another man using his power in a way. Um, and I'm like, I really, for myself, I think I'm actually just like amping up myself here right now of like, I really want, I really wish we would and could spend as much time talking about like, what does it look like to have like environments where not just like, this doesn't happen, but like, where, like, it's just like inconceivable, like, like this kind of behavior is just so incompatible with the way we do business and the way we exercise our power and like that kind of thing feels like so future, and so kind of foreign right now, honestly, like it feels like where I want to go. And also something that feels like very far away when we're still stuck here in like, um, what is the response to abuse of power?
Aminatou: I mean, I think that's the thing that 's going to keep me awake at night. It's one, it's like, if you read the report, the stuff that the, the aides and the staff are just the ways that they are complicit in just completely enabling this bullying environment. It's so vivid, it's so stark and it's so recognizable. And at the same time, like, you know, again, I was like, the buck does not stop with the staffers. It stops with the boss. But I think the thing that this makes me think about so much, it's just how we constructed this kind of power essentially, you know, because for so many people, when, when you bring up all this almost off, the first thing that they tell you is that like, um, but he was so instrumental during the pandemic. And the answer is like, yes, that's his job. Like it should not be when someone runs for office to be our president or our governor or whatever, we shouldn't be grateful to them. We do pay them a lot of money to do those jobs. Um, there are jobs that they seek out and we also repay them in power and prestige. And that is a huge mistake because there's so much paternalism involved in this. And I, and I say this as a New Yorker that was glued to his press conferences every single day, because we had so little information coming out. It did feel in that moment that, um, you know, someone was not participating in the chaos of it all. And it's okay to say like, okay, my governor is doing exactly, my governor is doing a good job and he's doing exactly what he should be doing. But now with many months of hindsight, we know that he lied about a lot of things during the pandemic. We know that he, um, went on a extravagant book tour and took a huge book deal and basically used the pandemic to like launch the optics of a bigger office that he wants.
Ann: And made his staff write the book to write the book, he didn’t even write the book
Aminatou: Oh of course, but you know what I mean? And like, and the brother, the CNN brother always like weighing in on everything. It's like, okay, like, what are, you know? And also I'm like, this family is literally a political dynasty. Like, like they're not, um, they're not like nobodies, they're just like rose up. And I was like, their father was literally a governor, like relax. And so just this, this idea that we, we owe these people so much, they're like, no, actually, like that's not how this job works. Like they owe us a lot. And I understand why in a world where everything is falling apart, we should be grateful for people doing the bare minimum of their job. But politicians are like people that we should be vigilant of every step of the way, no matter how much we like them. And I am straining to think of anyone who really likes Cuomo. So what's going on here?
Ann: Ah, what's going on here is inertia. And like, you know, or perpetuating itself. That is like the only answer. I mean, yeah, he's just like a classic bully and every way that he made these women uncomfortable was bullying again, you know, and his entire office operation is when we're bullying as tolerated. And I don't know, this is, this is the, like the, the thing that unifies all of the harassment stories all the time, everything that we learned during Me too, is whenever we have even a little bit of tolerance for this kind of toxic work environment for bosses who are bullies, you are opening, you are opening the thing we think wide open for someone to be harassed, um, in a sexual nature, because what are you going to do about that? If you can't do something about like the boss, that's yelling and throwing things at someone.
Ann: Oh man, are you ready to get angry again? I feel like I, I feel like I only have like scream, inducing, like headlines for today. That's all we both have.
Aminatou: Tell me, tell me if it's possible that I'll get angrier than I am right now. Let me know, hit me. Well, I have been kind of like thinking a lot about two things that are dominating, like different sets of headlines, or maybe not dominating, but definitely like pervasive. Um, one is the like super fucked up conversation about gender and categories of gender and the way that, um, that is all playing out in Olympic athletics.
Aminatou: Oh god. Like, I'm angry. Tell me, yeah.
Ann: I'm talking about the reaction to, um, trans competitors, um, particularly trans women competitors. I'm also talking about like the cis sexist, racist, like, you know, shenanigans going on with gender testing and like some of the rules related to testosterone levels and these like arbitrary ways of defining gender that have been used to ban several runners from track and field events. Most of them, if not, all of them are from the global south, you know, really disgusting stuff that you would think was like from like a 19th century medical horror's book and is like happening today when it's, when it comes to how are like Olympics officials deciding who gets to compete and in what category. So anyway, I've been watching that happening and I was really, really heartened to see a TikTok video from an Olympic weightlifter named Laura Mariel. Did you see this this week?
Aminatou: No. Tell me.
Ann: No basically she is a heavyweight weightlifter and, um, in the category above her, which I believe is super heavyweight, there is a trans woman competing. She, a woman named Laurel Hubbard from New Zealand. And so this a weightlifter, Laura Mariel was like, listen. So, you know, a lot of people have asked, um, what I think about trans athletes competing in the same category as me. And I'm just going to read you her response. “I think a lot of people use this question as an excuse for their bigotry. A lot of people that are concerned about transgender women in sports have not given a flying about me as a female athlete. You don't care about the inequalities and opportunities in pay, in airtime. You don't care about the blatant misogyny that still exists within sports today. Basically people who have not cared one bit about my wellbeing as a female athlete and are probably the same people who have bullied me are now concerned about my competitive opportunities as a female athlete because of transgender women. Stop asking this question because you guys don't actually care about us.” And I was like, yes, thank you for really boiling that down. Like yes.
Aminatou: All of the snaps. I mean, that's so real because I mean, I don't know why I'm shocked by this, but every single time there is a sporting event, it's the people who are sitting at home who cannot do the sport, who talk so much, you know, and I'm like, oh yeah, forgetting that this is all, this is entertainment again. It's like, we're literally just watching people use their bodies for entertainment and the public is terrible. Um, I really appreciate that response. And at the same time, I'm like, how do we, how does this conversation scale? Because the people that you hear from the least are always the athletes, you know. Everyone else gets to say in this, I just cannot believe that we are living in like Jetson years. And we hear like fully we're fully living in the future we thought we'd be living in and everything is very retrograde.
Ann: Yeah. And I have to say that, like, it feels important for us to be talking about and what I love so much about, um, this weightlifter, Laura Mariel's response is that so often cisgender women are used as like the excuse for this kind of anti-trans like dialogue and behavior, right. It's sort of like, we're doing this to protect you cis woman in a bathroom, we're doing this to protect you, cis woman athlete, we're doing this to protect like, you know, cis girls in schools when we like are, you know, being horrible to like trans girls. Like it's really like, you know, being used as the foil or the excuse for some of this stuff is absolutely infuriating. And I think like, you know, hearing her response of like, actually I could maybe take you seriously if you were taking my real concerns seriously, which of course, you know, you're not, um, felt to me like a really good response to a lot of anti-trans like, you know, talking points and legislation that use, um, that use cisgender women as kind of like the excuse or like the protected class. Like, it really is like, okay, well, like show me that you really care about this stuff that is having a far greater impact or detriment on my well being than the existence of trans women. Like, let's talk about what I really care about then. And I hear you, on wanting to hear from trans athletes directly. But I think that that is why I wanted to read that quote in particular and why that really resonated with me, because I think that's where I locate myself in this as like a non-Olympian or whatever. I'm like, don't make me the protected class. Like, you know, like as this extends to other parts of society. So absolutely yes. To hearing more from trans athletes and also like absolutely yes, to extending this response of like, Hey, like what are you doing to address actual concerns that I have about my safety and PS uh, the existence and, um, presence of trans women is not one of those concerns.
Aminatou: Wow. What a, like, what a world, what a world. The one thing that I am enjoying though at these Olympics, even though the Olympics are definitely on their flop era is, um, all the mixed-gender competition that we're seeing. I was like, maybe this will be, um, I was like, maybe this will be good for the lizard brain for some people to just see like, okay, um, people of different gender expressions, literally doing the same relay sports at the same time, I was like, the clock can do whatever the clock does. It's like, it's so ridiculous just to segregate people based on, um, based on where they sit on the gender spectrum. And so I've been enjoying that and there've been all these like really funny TikToks for, um, the triathlon, at least because every single time that you watch, like the, the men finish their triathlon events, like everyone is on the floor, like throwing up. They're just like, they're losing it. And then the women will finish and everyone is like, high-fiving each other, sorry, my, um…
Ann: I thought you were high fiving me [laughter]
Aminatou: And then the women will finish and then you watch them, like, high-fiving each other. And they look in like better shape. And just like generally, you know, they generally look like they are having, uh, like physically or having a less of a hard time. And I was talking to a friend who was an athlete this morning and he's like, uh, he's like a very serious bodybuilder. And he was telling me, he was like, well, he's like, you know, but he was like, some of this doesn't surprise me because the amount of like metal, it takes to be a woman who goes to the Olympics. He was like, a lot of those, he's like a lot of the men who were competing, like he was like, they've had their own challenges, but they have not had the challenge, like have to build the grit of having to fight against this kind of system. And he's like, so when you see it in these, like in these really hardcore, like long events, he was like, that doesn't surprise me at all. And I was like, I love when gender essentialism works in my favor. So thank you for saying that. Um, but yeah, it was just, it's very, it's just been really interesting to see where it's like, this is the thing they're always afraid of. And I've been thinking so much about how, like, the way that we all do PE is so broken. Like, I don't know, a single person who doesn't have trauma. I don't know a single person who doesn't have trauma from PE because they do all the things wrong. They're always like, okay, I like the boys go to this place and the girls go to this place, but then they weigh you all in front of each other, but they won't let you run at the same time. And they won't, you know, it's like, again, like, what are we doing here? Like, what lesson are you trying to teach people? And, and it just, it really sucks. This is the kind of like, that's how early it starts. And the people, people who are athletes, like just, they just want to do their sport. They want to do their sport and they want to get recognized for it. And they want to do their jobs. Like let people do their job, let people do the thing that they're passionate about. And we don't all have to weigh in with like our and garbage politics about at all, because it's just so disingenuous at the end of the day.
Ann: Yeah. It's funny that you say that about gym class, because I was talking to my friend, Josh, who was a friend from like the gym class era about how we would both certainly be healthier people today. If we had not been coded as not gym people, like from a very early age, like where, where we were like, it was like, okay, if you don't succeed or like, look this particular way, then this like physical activity is not for you. And you're so right. You're so right. Yes. Like, like the Olympics is bad and terrible, but like, we also kind of watch play out like the, the most intense version of the kind of like athletics experience that is like more common, which is to say like school sports or gym class, or, you know, or even like college athletics. It's like banning trans kids from using a bathroom aligned with their gender or banning trans girls in particular from playing on like a girl's sports team that, you know, where their friends are playing, where they feel most at home. It's like, you know, like this stuff is not just isolated to Olympic athletes or as like, not just like the purview of like every four years we watch it happen. It's like, this is like a kind of prominent test case for how we are failing when it comes to how we're organizing. Like, what are sports for, what does physical activity for, like who, who, who are we talking about and thinking about, and, um, like considering important as we do these things. Like, I don't know, like it all, it all feels, it all feels very much linked to me.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean, also just the scam is that society will police everything except for toxic masculinity. You know what I mean? Where, because when I think so much about this, like the bathroom controversy and you hear it, and there's this like, concern, like the concern trolling and everything. And I was like, yes, what you're saying is that cis men can be very dangerous to people who are not cis men. Like we hear you. And that's the one thing that you're not going to address. So instead you're going to lie about all kinds of other scenarios that are possible and put trans people's lives in harm's way. And, and all of this is like that, that's the scam of the whole thing where it's like, yes, like let's, uh, if we're going to talk about, uh, gender, then let's put it all on the table then, and then let's talk about like, what's working and not working, but somehow, um, cis male toxicity always manages to just like, make it out of the, like, make it out of the conversation.
Ann: God. That your, your comment too, about how like a kind of conforming or toxic version of masculine behavior is the only thing not police reminded me of, um, like a posi, like heartwarming story about the two male high jumpers who decided to share the gold. Did you see this?
Aminatou: Oh, that was so great.
Ann: It was great. But I also, like, I watched the kind of like, you know, their final jumps leading up to that and like the commentary, which granted, this could be like an American NBC news problem, not like a global issue, but like every time, like, you know, one of them was getting ready to jump. They were described as like, you know, the flamboyant Italian, like, you know, or like this guy is known for his big personality, like, oh, and it's like, it actually just feels like, like, like one of them was wearing like cool sunglasses and the other one was wearing cute socks. And like, you know what I mean? Like there was like this kind of effort to, um, really kind of like flag, like these guys are different. These guys are different. Like, I don't know. And then I know that's not policing in a negative sense. Like, I was like taking pleasure in like Italian competitors, cool socks or whatever.
Aminatou: But like I read it's called swag, NBC presenter, look into us, you know what I mean?
Ann: But the way it's like a noteworthy thing. These men are outside of norm and let's keep talking about it. It's like, maybe they can just like be themselves as they compete. And that's also cool.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, the other scam that's going on with these Olympics that we're not talking about enough, these Olympics or the first time that we have like pretty near like gender equality. Um, because I want to say like 49% of the athletes that are competing are women. And that's, that's a really big deal because, uh, when the Olympics were founded in 1896 by a French Barron, um, the French are so proud of the fact that they like founded the modern Olympics. Um, they never tell you though that like women were literally banned from competition and it wasn't. Yeah. Whoops. And even like, even in the fifties until like the 1952 Olympics, that it was the first time that you had, like, at least 10% of the participants were women. But so now, you know, like the Olympic pic committee is like patting itself on the back. Like we have 49% are women like are competing and we're like, okay, great. Um, let's look at the rest of, um, of what's going on here. And it turns out that, um, yeah. Does the IOC have gender parody? Absolutely not. Um, most of the exact, no shock the Olympic committee, like you'd be shocked to know, Ann, they are men. Um, the country committees are also mostly male. And I don't know if you followed all of the controversy like these Olympics specifically it's like every day there was a new, there was new drama every single day, like a man involved with the Tokyo Olympics did something completely, just wild. And, um, and it wasn't even until June, I want to say June of, um, of this year that they decided that they were going to let nursing mothers bring their infants to the Olympics that had been a controversy. There is this Japanese, um, kind of like a, she's a fashion designer and like a personality Naomi Watanabe and the creative director of the Olympics, like literally insulted her because she was fat. Um, because she is fat and like made this like really derogatory, like pig comment about her, the president of the Tokyo Olympics specifically, he had to be like replaced because he suggested that women speak too much in meetings. It's like this kind of 1900s sexism has just been happening the whole time in the background. And so, again, like here, you have an organization that's taking all this credit, like patting themselves on the back because it does look like there's a lot of ladies out here and the minute that you investigate, like any part of it, you're like, oh yeah, this is a not good for anybody.
Ann: Wow. I am shocked to learn that this fish rots from the head Absolutely shocked.
Aminatou: Ann, are you shocked?
Ann: That is not what I've been led to believe about rotten fish.
Aminatou: Yeah, if only the culture was better.
Ann: Um, wow. Maybe that's where this episode ends. Everything can be bad. [laughter]
Aminatou: Everything can be bad if you have to share a space with this man. Um, oh, flamboyant high jumper.
Aminatou: Man, high jump is so cool though. It's like high jump and hurdles. And um, I was like, how do you find out that this is your calling in life? I have too much fear.
Ann: Oh my God. I also secretly love. Maybe like, maybe this is a time for like Olympic confessions. High jumping is maybe is very close to my favorite summer event to watch in part, because I'm like, it's that it's, it's got that like dance quality of I'm like, how does, how do they arch their back in that shape? I am like, I'm really very into the moves and could watch them all day.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh. Um, the other thing that I'm going to investigate when I hang up with you, that I have really been enjoying and maybe someone smart has an article about this. Like it's probably, it's probably like on the Atlantic.com, but I have to find it is why all these like small countries just have, like, there's so many Black athletes competing for these countries. Every single time I turn around, it'll be like, you know, the NCAA three time champion from Virginia tech representing Yugoslavia, JaQuan Freeman. And you're like, what? Like what is happening here? So I need someone to explain this to me, like how all these small Eastern European countries have Black sometimes like African-American athletes competing for them. I have so many questions about this. And I must know.
Ann: I mean, isn't the answer is the answer just diaspora. Cause I feel like I had the same feeling.
Aminatou: No, because diaspora, I get t. But like, this is always, I'm like, what's an American person that went to American college, like I was like, are we just like giving like citizenship to anybody now?
Ann: Maybe you should run the investigation. Be like the, like, what is really going on here? That's not just like natural migration patterns or immigration choices. I would be so curious.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean the answer is probably capitalism and sports, you know, but, um, I will report back.
Ann: Again, no way. [laughter]
Aminatou: Um, okay. My little high jumper, I will see you on the internet.
Ann: Oh my God. I will see you at the trampoline competition.
Aminatou: Ooh, that will be so fun.
Ann: That will be so wild.
Aminatou: Bye, booboo.
Ann: Bye.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.