Summer of Friendship: Two Old Bitches
7/16/21 - As we continue our Summer of Friendship series, a few of our favorite podcasters tell us how they met, times their friendship has been stretched, and how they grow together. This week, Idelisse Malavé and Joanne Sandler aka Two Old Bitches!
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Check out Idelisse Malavé and Joanne Sandler ‘s podcast, Two Old Bitches!
Big Friendship is available from Bookshop.org | Indiebound | B&N | Amazon | BAM | Target | Signed copies available at Books Are Magic | McNally Jackson | The Strand
TRANSCRIPT: SUMMER OF FRIENDSHIP: CLAIRE AND ERICA
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: She’s Ann Friedman
Ann: And She’s Aminatou Sow.
Aminatou: Nn today's agenda our summer of friendship continues. We're hearing from other pairs of friends who also happened to be podcasters about the events that have shaped their friendship, the stories they tell together, and the times they've been challenged. We're really sick about talking about our own friendships. So we are so, so, so ready to hear about how other people are doing it.
Ann: And this week is a super special treat. I am really thrilled to say that we have the hosts of Two Old Bitches here to talk about their real life friendship. It's Idelisse Malave and Joanne Sandler.
[theme song]
Ann: Honestly, like I got to say, there's something special about like a friendship that is like at a different stage in life than your own. I mean, it's like, I never tire of hearing about like teen friendships and older women's friendships. And like, I dunno, like just things that I haven't experienced in a long time, or like haven't yet experienced when it comes to the types of dynamics that can affect friends. I'm so excited.
Aminatou: I am so excited too. Here they are.
[interview starts]
Joanne Hi, I'm Joanne Sandler.
Idelisse: And I'm Idelisse Malave and we’re the two old bitches.
Joanne: Idelisse, remind me, how did we meet? And when did we meet?
Idelisse: We met for the first time and around 1990, when I started working for the Ms. Foundation and you were a consultant for the Ms. Foundation.
Joanne: That's right.
Idelisse: And we met and you were a wonderful consultant and I admired you enormously.
Joanne: And what were you?
Idelisse: And I was the vice-president of, or something. Right?
Joanne: You were, you were very high level, vice president.
Idelisse: [laughter] Right, bog fish, big fish, a very small pond. But, um, we really bonded around an interesting issue, which I think was very specific, but it's one of the areas that I think we bonded that is our interest in organizational development, and then dynamics, right? And you were the expert. I was new at this. I hadn't run organizations before I started working at Ms. and we bonded over narcissism. Do you remember?
Joanne: Of course I remember. I mean, we, I was very fascinated by the question of leadership by feminist leadership in particular, because I had been working in feminist organizations at that time by, for around 12 years. And I was interested both in how leaders, not just to decisions, but you know, profiled themselves. Right. And, and the joy that they got from attention. And, but that wiggly line between leadership and narcissistic behavior. And I was also interested in the relationship between what I kind of crudely call number ones and number twos, and you were the vice president. And so the other thing for me that bonded me to you immediately was I was so fascinated by the way you managed that number two position.
Idelisse: And I was so grateful to you because I was struggling. And I mentioned to you finally, I was really struggling. And you said, I have something for you to read. And I got by email, an article that explained it all to me, and this is how you deal. And it was the best advice I ever got. So that was the first time we met.
Joanne: But one, just one more thing about the first time, the first time, kind of, not the end of that story of the first time, but also an important note from that first time is that we then ended up going to Beijing together for the fourth World Conference on Women with a delegation of 110 women that you, Sarah Gold, and I were leading, um, I was the extensible leader of vice-president. Yes, because I was the vice president, whatever. But it was, that was like where friendship was forged in a trial by fire.
Joanne: Exactly.
Idelisse: Because that was a trial by fire. So that was the first, right. And then the second time, right. I went to live and work in California and then about 10 or 11 years ago, I came back to New York and you got in touch.
Joanne: And at that time I was the number two as the deputy director of the UN Development Fund for Women UNIFEM.
Idelisse: And I was the consultant. Right, so we reversed roles. Um, but then we just, since I was in New York, we had a few lunches and dinners and then we started being more friends and more friends and more friends, and we created things together. We would come up with ideas, we were good accomplices.
Joanne: Yeah. Yes, we were. We're excellent. We are excellent accomplices. And out of that second phase of our friendship, so many good things happened. Two Old Bitches, the best of course.
Idelisse: Which is amazing. I mean, I still remember you asking me one day we were at our co-working space working on Two Old Bitches, and you said, so why do you think we actually did this? You know? And instead of just having an idea and then not really following up on it. And I was like, I don't know. And then we both looked at each other and said, but I do know that I went to have done it alone.
Joanne: No, no way. Right. It was the partnership. One Old Bitch, no.
[laughter]
Idelisse: It was the collaboration. And I think it is for me, one of the things I appreciate about you so much. So Joanne is one of the kindest, most generous people in the world she truly is, but she is also one of the most collaborative and playful people in the world. Collaborating with Joanne is about having fun. But with Joanne and it's central for me and to this friendship is this, she is one of a very small number of people with whom I feel I am freely and truly my best self.
Joanne: I would say that you are truly, really your best self most of the time. And, and it's true Idelisse. At least the thing is, I mean, and for me, you ask the questions that need to be asked. And from the moment I met you until today, I am blown away by how insightful and how laser not focused, but the laser vision that you have to be able to ask the questions, which always gives me a huge amount of confidence that what we're doing alone and together makes sense. It has value. It has purpose, right? Because you don't, you don't just step into things as much as I have to say, when I, when you were talking before I was thinking, you know, one of the things I think we both share, because we grew up in the fifties is this kind of Lucille Ball thing.
Idelisse: Yes we do. I love Lucy!
Joanne: I love that. And, and, and like when we started Two Old Bitches and we got asked to pose to do an underwear commercial, basically an underwear ad, and there we were, you were like 67, I was 64 or something, or 64.
Idelisse: We were in our sixties. No, not young.
Joanne: And not necessarily in the kind of shape that you would want, but it was like a Lucy moment. But so a very thoughtful, strategic and bonding moment to me.
Idelisse: Well, it was, it turned that event where that was another level of bonding, because I remember when we got to the studio and, you know, they stripped us down, we were going to lunch and they gave us these big terry robes, which you and I immediately covered ourselves up in. But then, but then I didn't know, half an hour later, there were the two of us running around without what terry robe. It was so normal. It is, it got normalized, but that, that freedom. But going back to what you said, I do think, and I, I think it's what the podcast and others projects, if you will, that we've done together reflect are this curiosity. I think you're enormously curious. I think I'm really curious. And I like novel, uncertain things. I like when things change. So asking questions, you love asking questions. I know you love, you love interviewing when you love answering. I whispered it like, oh, you love asking questions. I love asking questions.
Joanne: And also I think it's important to note that in phase two of our friendship, which was very distinct from phase one in the sense that we were at a part of our lives, where, you know, you had stepped down from the leadership of the Tides Foundation, I left the UN and we were in that moment of like, so what do you do now? We were consulting. Who are we? Exactly? Who are you? Our favorite question. You know, what, what is this moment? And we spent a lot of time talking about what this moment was for ourselves. And for other women who were experiencing this new way of being in their sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties.
Idelisse: You could say we're growing old together, definitely growing old together in the best sense of encouraging each other, to keep living, to keep being curious, to keep the coming right, that it's not over. And neither one of us is retiring. You know, I looked up the origins of the word retirement. Retire means to withdraw. Retirement comes from withdrawals. Isn't that sad?
Joanne: So sad.
Idelisse: We're not ready to withdraw.
Joanne: We need a new word.
Idelisse: Right. We really need, it's really, it's a chance to embrace more, to choose, to shift more than a withdrawal, but, and choosing Two Old Bitches, choosing to do Two Old Bitches. I think I told you when we started doing that and started interviewing and having conversations with all these amazing women, right? I got an email from a friend in South Africa who said, oh, it looks like you figured out something to do that you can do for the rest of your life.
Idelisse: Right, we’re getting old. It only makes you better at what you're doing, right.
Joanne: It's such a joy. It's also, I think why it's such an honor to be asked by Call Your Girlfriend, by CYG to do this because that's what it's about. It is really a lot about your girlfriend.
[ads]
Idelisse: It is a lot about the friendship. And I too think it's, I mean, part of what I love about this friendship is we created las creativas, a creative circle for women with an idea, and it was feeling on and together again, together, we could do that, um, Sub Club, right, right. Which lasted for any number of years. And God grew, you know, big, too big, but what's lovely of going out to dinner with a select group of friends every couple of months or so, and experimenting and knowing new places. But it was, it's doing that.
Joanne: It's an acknowledgement. I think that gathering is so important. And, and I think what we have done together, what we do together is create ways of gathering. Whether it's creativas where, you know, we're very intentional about bringing women who are our friends together to talk about what our aspirations and and projects are. And also just to like laugh and eat, and drink and smoke and do whatever, um, or bringing people together for supper.
Idelisse: Or, you know, I, now, when I have a birthday, I assume that at some point I won't be going up to Woodstock with you and a couple of other friends, and we will be having a birthday weekend where we will probably do mushrooms and yeah, yeah, alter our consciousness, but it's become, I don't know if ritual's the right word, but it's, it is for me, it's, it's like marking, marking the year. It's sort of like, another year has…
Joanne: And it’s wondrous, Idelisse, it's wondrous. I mean, here we are, right. I'm 70, you're 74. I am, I just turned 74 and you would just turned 74 and you know, we're doing psychedelics.
Idelisse: [laughter] I did psychedelics for the first time when I was 70 years old.
Joanne: I was in my twenties, but that was, I thought that was done. And look at us. I mean, I know we're not the only ones. I know it's kind of happening everywhere now. It's but it is wondrous. It is wondrous that this, that we can do this.
Idelisse: Well, but it's also, I, you know, I think it's so important in a friendship, right. It goes back to you're your best self, but it's that, that kind of then affirming one of the, you know, I had started that art project, you know, who is that old bitch, right.
Joanne: That’s right. That's how we got Two Old Bitches.
Idelisse: But you were the person of all my friends who was the most like yeah, do that, do that, do that. And then, and then it turned into, you know, we, we, it turned into, it's a different thing. Um, and then really played into our strengths and what we love and what I find amazing is I think that one of the things I most like about the podcast itself actually, is that the way we are on the podcast is the way we are. No question. I know. I just trying to think different when we're not recording and the answer is I don't think we're different when we're recording, you know, our, our offline friendship is no different than our online friendship. And yeah, that, that to me is a gift, a gift, both that I receive. And then I give.
Joanne: That there is true because I do think that one of the fundamental principles of our friendship is encouragement. It is about saying yes, yes. Right?
Idelisse: Yes. It is. Yeah. Oh, you weren't. Yes, dude. Yeah. And shopping, I mean you are, you are a world, this is a bond. This is now where we're both very good shoppers, but I said, but I think you're, yeah. I get the silver. You kept the gold.
Joanne: Oh please, that is so not true.
Idelisse: But who else could I go to when it still existed? And they say, it's coming back Century 21 and we would spend a couple of them in there and you would be, just saying try it on, try it on. Um, and playing, we would, I remember playing with you in the aisles. There was some like silver puffy that we both kept was ludicrous. It was enormous. We both would try on and take pictures. Of course we wouldn't buy it. No, the fun was…
Joanne: But we have bought some things that we shouldn't have bought. [laughter]
Idelisse: Oh, of course we have. I mean, you know, encouragement is good, but there are some errors and mistakes made along the, uh, like, do you think it was a mistake when we both got that dress? The same dress and wore it to that gala, no, I think it was great.
Joanne: I think that was really smart. And I think, I think that the thing, I think I want to give credit to our mothers because we both had kind of championship shopping authors who taught us, who taught us.
Idelisse: And, and who I, whether I wanted to, or not at the age of five, had to accompany her on her shopping. And it was very serious business.
Joanne: Yeah. So Idelisse, do you think there have been low points in our friendship?
Idelisse: I thought about this. I thought about this and I couldn't think of one. Um, I don't know if you did, but I couldn't think of one, but then the place where I went was there hadn't been low points in the friendship, but there have been low points in my life.
Joanne: Yes. Right. And one low point for me was when I found that I had kidney cancer. Right. And the human being who sat with me, two things come to mind when I was looking for the right doctor at Memorial Sloan Kettering. You and I sat together on the sofa here in my living room. And we went through, like, it was, I didn't know, online dating, oh he’s cute. What about that one? He's cute. Right. And you made it something less than, you know, I was looking for someone who's going to tell me whether I was going to, who might help me save my life or who, um, might not be able to help me save my life. But that came to mind, and during that time, and then I remember right after I had surgery, um, I, God, I was fine. My daughter left, she went back home. And the day that she left, I had a problem. Yeah. And I had to go to urgent care and I was, you know, I was there and you showed up because my daughter called you and said, I was there.
Joanne: Because you didn't call me.
Idelisse: Well, because I didn't want to bother you.
Joanne: That’s a low point, you should’ve called me immediately, but anyway.
Idelisse: But you stay there till like five o'clock in the morning with me, that horse. Well, not up, not, not, it is not, of course I am so grateful for that. Um, and it is my intention whenever I hope you will stay healthy, stay healthy, please. But you know, there are low moments in knowing I hope, you know that in those moments, when things, you know, you call me and you reach out and I'm like, and it's like, um, this is someone I'm there for.
Joanne: Yeah. Yes, no, not only that, but I think that we have some agreements. Maybe we should make them more explicit about how not just being there, but being there in a particularly aggressive, assertive way. Because as a hypochondriac, I relate to these situations in a very particular way. And I, and I have total confidence and faith that, you know, that, you know, without my telling you that you know exactly what I would need to have happened and that if I weren't in a place to be able to say it, you've got it.
Idelisse: I got it. You know, I am there I am. Yes, yes, no. This is her husband. Yes. He gets to make decisions. But I'm the other old bitch. And I have some questions.
Joanne: That's the thing. No, no, no. That's yeah. I agree with you. I think the low points aren't like low friendship points. There are low points in our lives where friends are so important and also hard to access just because you're so low that it's not necessarily your instinct to ask anybody to go low with you, but I know that you will.
Idelisse: Well, and it's the friendships, you know, the more we do the work that we're doing about aging. Yeah. It's the friendships and the relationships that and curiosity, I was just reading. Yeah. Right. That serves your physical health, your mental health, your wellbeing. Generally, these are the things that allow you to age with vitality so that we can talk about the art of aging and becoming and all of those things. Thank you, Joanne.
Joanne: Thank you, Idelisse. I can't just can't wait for this to continue to unfold.
Idelisse: It will.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.