Feeling Our Way Through
2/19/21 - Poet, artist and activist Cleo Wade feels deeply and writes movingly about growing up, finding ourselves, and having good boundaries with the people in our lives and our social feeds.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: FEELING OUR WAY THROUGH
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: She’s Ann Friedman.
Ann: She’s Aminatou Sow.
Aminatou: I love to mix it up. How are you doing over there? Still eating coffee cake from a couple of weeks ago.
Ann: Listen, I am eating all kinds of things. One of my pandemic coping mechanisms has been actually eating dessert. Like normally I don't really bother with dessert, but I think that stretching out meal time a little bit more or being like here is something different. I can't explain it, but I eat dessert now, not just in the morning is what I'm trying to say. What about you?
Aminatou: Ann, I love this for you. What about me? Nothing, I am dealing with like some very serious, like a chronic dry hands, but only on patches of skin. So…
Ann: What?
Aminatou: Yeah, I was like is this eczema? Is this like, what's happening here? Anyway that will be investigated further. But in the meantime, I have bought like every, like intensely moisturizing cream that one can own. And I'm learning a lot about water content in lotion and what you're supposed to do for that. Anyway suffice to say that my hands are very well moisturized right now. I'm very happy and I might be going to the dermatology school soon.
Ann: Can I tell you that I had a realization one night recently that like, a kind of like middle aged white woman headed to bed on TV, I have like taken to doing like, like putting on hand lotion before I go to sleep, which like it's not, [laughter] it it snuck into my life so fast and and all of a sudden I was like, wow. Like, I, I can't remember a transition point where I was like, I'm going to start putting on, putting lotion on my hands before I go to sleep. But like I find myself here and this is how aging works. It is a parable.
Aminatou: Night lotion, night lotion. Yeah, this is a this is like the level of old lady that I am where I just look at everyone's hands and I'm like, mm, I wonder if she wears sunscreen? Yeah, I'm like moisturizer, sunscreen, everything. It's, you know, like a health as well as they say.
Ann: And also you are already my favorite armchair dermatologist. I can't even imagine like that you would have more to learn about lotions.I'm actually kind of shocked. [laughter]
Aminatou: Listen, lotion is like it turns out, wow, like a whole world to explore. I could talk about this forever, but it will bore you. So let's get into the show this week. Ann: Tell me who we're talking to.
Aminatou: This week I called up my friend Cleo Wade, who is an artist, a poet and activist and an author. Her next book is called What the Road Said will be released on March 23rd, 2021. Cleo is just, she is truly like a magical human being. Like, I think if you read her work or you kind of like know what she does, you're like like she just like loves people and she is like always has the right word for the right time. But she's the real deal. She's the real deal. And she's one of my favorite thinkers. And I like how her brain works and I like the things that she's interested about and she always makes me consider things differently. So I was excited to call her up to see how her pandemic has been going. You know, like what it's like if you think that I am a good armchair dermatologist, like, she is a very good armchair dermatologist. And so I'm like, tell me what's, tell me like what's happening? You know, I'm like, tell me what's happening in your skin care, dawg.
Ann: I love that. And I can't wait to listen. I mean, I know and love Cleo's work and especially this is superficial, but especially her handwriting. Like, wow. Like truly. Wow.
[theme song]
Aminatou: Truly, truly, truly, a very, very, very distinguishable but also like gorgeous handwriting, anyone who can, like, make anyone who can be known for their handwriting, which is the opposite of me, like or rather like I too. I'm known for my handwriting, but not because it's good. You know, I'm like, wow, this is how the other half lives.
Ann: I, but it's one of those things, it's almost like I'm kind of ashamed to say it, like pointing out that someone who's really beautiful is really beautiful, but like, I do admire the handwriting. I do love a pretty handwriting. I can't help it.
Aminatou: Listen, it's a very good handwriting from someone who is very beautiful inside and outside. So it works.
Ann: Right The sentiment is there, too, which is why it's so great. Here is clear.
[interview starts]
Aminatou: Hi Cleo, thanks for coming on Call Your Girlfriend.
Cleo: Oh, my gosh. This is a dream come true. I'm so happy
Aminatou: I miss you. How are you?
Cleo: I feel like the only honest answer to that question is like, I'm doing as good as I could be under the circumstances we live in.
Aminatou: Fair enough. It's like when the people email you and they're like, I hope this email finds you well. You're like this email has found to be in shambles
[laughter]
Cleo: This email found me rotting in my sweatpants.
[laughter]
Aminatou: Is there anything that's making you a little bit happier right now? Like what's bringing you joy these days?
Cleo: Honestly, our tax and voice memos to each other give me life, truly. I mean, I hate to get mushy about you on your own podcast, but like I know especially because you hate mushy, but like love mushy. But like, I don't want to indulge in mushy, but I feel like if there's anything I wish for anyone in this world, whether you find it through partnership, a pet, a friend, a family member, it's like someone who divinely understands you and sees you and is kind of standing near you wherever you are during like these times were like during the weirdness of the world we live in. And so to be able to like call or text or be in contact or communication with the people who are like, I saw that too, or I felt that too. Especially when, you know, like I think like last time I texted you, I was like, hi, I'm just here with all of my unpopular opinions. And you were just right there with me. And I just felt this kind of divine understanding and like loving holding of the, of where I was. And that that type of these types of friendships are just really keeping me afloat during the isolation of covid.
Aminatou: I mean, I am so there with you. I think that the friends that you can just like a vent and complain to right now are the friends that you need to hold on so tightly to them. Like they're there just days where I'm like, I know we're in a pandemic, but I'm feeling really petty right now. Or I am feeling just I just don't want to talk about politics or the state of the pandemic. I'm like I actually have I'm like I have my personal things I want to vent about. And it's hard to like have those conversations with everyone. But I feel that we are able to have those because probably because we share the same unpopular opinions. [laughter]
Cleo: We do seem to, like I feel like, you know, when I talk to like our other friends, sometimes I'll be like, well, me and Aminatou and I both think, I always like, drag you in.
[laughter]
Aminatou: We're getting canceled from the friend group. Like don’t you worry, like every group that we're in, I'm convinced that they've started a group chat without us.
[laughter]
Cleo: One hundred percent.
[laughter]
Aminatou: Cleo, are you finding that it's been really hard to be creative or are you having pockets of creative outbursts right now?
Cleo: I'm finding it's hard to be creative because for me at least, creativity requires replenishment and reflection. And when you live in an era of like one train wreck after another, after another, I may be a small reprieve. And then another thing and then, you know, and being surrounded by just so much grief that we're living in globally and especially in America, it's like finding replenishment is so difficult and creating the space for reflection seems almost impossible. Right, because you still feel so in it. And then you're then you're kind of as you're in it, met with, like, you know, maybe one aspect of things ending or beginning, but, you know, new uncertainties of whether it's the vaccine or whether it's, how it's, how they're going to distribute it and on chaotic way. Or what about your kids? It's so hard to create the space for, I feel what's necessary to creativity in a time like this.
Aminatou: Yeah, how are you handling the grieving portion? Because I'm finding that every day there is, there is a new thing to mourn and also, when you really focus on just the grief of the moment, it becomes really overwhelming because there's just so much there are so many small things. Some of the big things, things that make you spiral, how are you handling that?
Cleo: You know, as someone who you know, most of the reason why I write so many mantras and things is because I actually use them, like when I can't sleep or I have anxiety or I have whatever I'm moving through. I do have things that I repeat over and over to myself. And I think when it comes to grief, what I've been I have written on a sheet of paper right in probably three different rooms of my house right now is the mantra: May I sit with grief without becoming it. And so for me, I just I, I kind of live knowing that grief is something that it is a ever present, not ever present, but grief is a kind of a reoccurring visitor, that is almost impersonal to you, you know, like the way the same group of birds might kind of fly and sit by your house every day. And so I kind of try to know that I can sit with things without becoming the thing. And that really helps me when I feel that I'm kind of up to my neck in it.
Aminatou: You are, like so in touch with your feelings to a degree that it frightens me a little bit because it just shows me how much I'm like, oh wow, I move through the world avoiding every feeling. It’s how I am able to take a breath, you know? But I was like wondering, were you always like this? Like, were you, is this something that you had to learn or do you think that, like, truly from the time you were formed, you really knew that, like, you know, processing your feelings and like handling them and also naming them is really important?
Cleo: You know, I think it mostly starts with an ability to console yourself. I think that for me, you know, my parents will be the first people to tell you that I raised myself, you know. And I didn't grow up in a household with a ton of emotional or mental stability or emotional availability. And, and I think for me especially, there wasn't a ton of emotional availability, given that my brother, the way my brother kind of handled the traumas of our childhood, he really required a lot of the, not the attention, but you know how when you you call out for the focus, you tend to get the focus more because it's kind of like, you have to go see the principal or you have to go to the class. You know, you have to and so when that's how it manifests in one child, that child where it doesn't manifest in that way kind of ends up being left alone the most because all of this energy has been spent on that, that the child who is flaring. So I think that for me, I just spent a lot of time in my own childhood by myself, kind of figuring out ways to make myself feel better, that were healthy. And it's all like I even thought they should be healthy or not, but it was kind of like that made sense to me as a kid. And I remember even when I was writing my kid's book, I wanted to create the book that, my book kind of consisted of a series of questions that this traveler, this young traveler asks this road. And the road is kind of this, whether it's the universe or God or whatever it is, your internal wisdom, any type of belief you have, Buddha or whatever, outside, whatever kind of deep wisdom you think may exist in the world in some way, energetically or spiritually. The road is kind of responding and you know holding the traveler as they go. And I remember when I wrote it, I was like, what? When I had all these big questions and what did I wish I had the grown ups around me? What did I wish the grown ups around me were providing the answers with you know, or to. And so I think that the one thing that I've learned to do since I was six years old is like, okay, well, you know, just if you look at it this way or like, you know, if you can just like have some water or if you can go to sleep or like, I really did have these kind of weird rituals, even as a young child of like, okay, this is how you can cope with this or deal with this. And, and that kind of turned into adult habits that became like much better versions of, like non-coping. So going to therapy so you're not always coping, and having a supportive group of girlfriends, or finding a healthy relationship romantically, you know etc.
Aminatou: Yeah, so the book is called What the Road Said. And I am curious if, like when when you sit down to start a new book project, like especially one like this, where you are really channeling your past self essentially to give advice to people who are kind of there and to and to really illuminate what the feelings of the reader are, what that process looks like for you. Is it really easy to tap back into that place or do you find that you have to do a lot of your own introspection and it's like a place where you have to heal again?
Cleo: I try not to try to find the healing and create the message at the same time. So I think to allow processing, you know I mean, even the idea that the poem came from that create that ended up turning into this book, it's like two and three years old now at this point, because even as I decided to put it into a book, I really wanted to take the time to process so that I could bring processed emotions into the world rather than kind of like energy dumping emotions. So, you know, sometimes a lot of the times you and I talk about the people who get online and just dump and dump and dump. Right. And it, you know, just makes the online space even less of a place for, like to feel any type of generative energy or any type of…
Aminatou: Right yeah, and it’s just painful.
Cleo: Yeah and people who choose to make things with their creativity or make art or put writing into the world, you kind of like have this weird sense of like what your place is in it, like before I even kind of like go back and journey into, like, what did I want to say to my childhood self? You know, I probably worked in therapy for like four years on the wounds of my childhood…
Aminatou: Right.
Cleo: Like thinking about asking myself that question so that it wouldn't be like a revelatory journey, like in a crazy, traumatic way, do you know what I mean?
Aminatou: No, I hear you, and I think that I like the reason I ask is because I think that it's something that you and I talk about a lot. And I think we talk about a lot in our friend group, too, about both like how do you move on from, from like this past kind of trauma? How do you channel it into the work that you want to do, but also how do you have boundaries with emotions that are just really hard to deal with and really hard to process? And I have always really admired the way that you are able to name something that's hard and also not let it completely eat you alive…
Cleo: Yeah
Aminatou: It's not because you're putting on a brave face or you're, like those people who are like, okay, I'm brave, I'm strong, I don't care. I don't really, that stuff doesn't affect me and that is not your attitude, right. I think that there is a place in community for processing trauma where we can all really model for each other. Here's what's hard about my life. Here are the steps that I'm taking to deal with it. Here's a therapy that I'm in or here's the healing method that I'm taking because it's not about that therapy is available to everyone. No thank you, America. [laughter] I personally, just like I've found it really, really healthy and also like really healing to be able to talk to other adults about, okay, here was what was hard about my childhood and here is how that affects me as an adult. And also I'm not going to dwell on it every day because it can not destroy my life. It's the kind of thing that I think is hard to figure out on your own, but when you see other people model it for you, you're like, okay, like we could do two things at once. Love it, love it. Let's do it.
Cleo: Yeah and it's also kind of about being able to say, like, I feel comfortable and would like to offer this part of my story to perfect strangers or to my community. And this is how I plan on doing it while also taking responsibility for my energy and taking responsibility for the things that come with that. And I think that a lot of the times what we have in our culture is people who don't consider the responsibility, the things that they need to be responsible for, as the sharer.
Aminatou: Can you say more about that?
Cleo: I feel like I know a lot of people who may have come out of the social media gate really strong, like kind of sharing and sharing and sharing so much of their lives. And then you'll start to see their narrative shift over time where they start to kind of say, like, so this is eating me alive, or can’t believe people are questioning this or worrying about this or if their, their following grows in a really big way. And it's like, they start to have this weird identity crisis in the space of the non-reality reality of the Internet.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Cleo: So in that, you just don't take into account that just like you, that you're going into a relationship with something like social media or the Internet. Just like when I go into a relationship with my partner Simon, I don't just go in saying these are all the things I want from you are these are all the things you're going to do for me or this is all the love we have. Or da da da, you know, you're like as a grown ass woman, these are the, this is what I'm responsible for, right? I'm responsible for my own happiness in a way. You cannot be the person who's responsible for whether or not I'm a happy person, you know, whether or not our relationship is high functioning and is a happy relationship. We both have a responsibility to that that's interconnected. But as far as like the things that only I can do for me here are those things. And this is where I take responsibility. And so I think that as people go into that kind of sharing space of online, you know, they forget that they're entering a relationship with mass groups of people and they don't have that moment of saying, okay and this is how I responsibly do this, because if I'm going to treat you like my therapist and then you don't respond to me like a loving therapist, maybe I can't be mad.
Aminatou: [laughter]
Cleo: You know, or if I'm going to sit here and think that you are going to be the place where I put every single thought I've ever had. And then someone says it's annoying that every single thought I've ever had is online or has some judgment of my life because I share so much of my life or this or that or whatever. You have to take responsibility for the things you want to do in the world. You know, like whether it's I mean, I even remember when I wanted to become a poet, it was, it was really before it became a thing you could do. Like there was no one doing it. I mean, I remember even when my when Hard Talk was coming out, they were like, we don't know where we're going to put this in a bookstore, because this kind of modern poetry hadn't happened. I think even our friend Rupi's book, I think, Milk and Honey had still been self published at that point, you know. So it wasn't, it was not happening like at all. And I remember I had a boyfriend of time, but I was in D.C. and I would be at these stuffy parties and or events or whatever. And these, like old white guys would be kind of like, what do you do? And I'd say as a poet. And they would literally laugh at me like they would just burst into laughter because they couldn't understand how I could…
Aminatou: They were like a poet? On the Internet, tell me more.
Cleo: I could. They just couldn't even believe, you know, like and I wanted to say even had my book deal at that point. But they couldn't even believe the book was real. They probably thought I was lying.
Aminatou: [laughter]
Cleo: Like they really were like, that's not even a real job in like one hundred years. And so, and, and let alone that they were kind of confused as to why this, kind of like, supposedly serious person was dating someone like who's like a poet. It was, it was like, it was a kind of a funny thing. But I remember thinking, like, listen, like, that's my dream and that's what I want to do. And I have to take responsibility for what comes with that.
Aminatou: mmhmm
Cleo: And like, when you want to do something that's unusual or you want to do something that is merely just what you want to do, you know, you look at it and you're like, and I'm responsible for the energy I come with about it. I'm responsible for the feedback. I may or may not get it. You know, I'm responsible for, however, I need to handle the feedback. So I think that there's this kind of lost space in our world right now where we just stop wondering, like okay, what are we responsible for?
Aminatou: Like, the way that it's happening now online, you know, it definitely, it feels very different then, I'm not saying that like people have invented like being public figures or somebody public figures. I'm just saying that with the Internet and social media specifically, it feels differently and it looks differently. But I find that very rarely do people have honest conversations about how it makes them feel. You know?
Cleo: mmhmm
Aminatou: And because I like, I cannot imagine, for example, like, being your like your inbox. Like the amount of people who are just like Cleo, give me wisdom or give me a part of yourself or fix my life or the entitlement to that. It's a very beautiful and lucky and, look like I am grateful that people care about our ideas and they care about our work, like I don't take that for granted. But I think that really talking about the other side of how it drains you or how you can also start to feel very differently about that pressure is something that's also really important to discuss. Cleo: Well, or to, to, and to just look at it like any other relationship, like the health of every relationship is dependent on if you had to boil it down to one thing, it would be boundaries, you know. And so the being online or having a relationship with the community, you know, is a relationship nonetheless, meaning that it is, can only thrive if there are boundaries. And so a lot of I feel like what you and I discuss a lot is what are the boundaries that feel right. And as you know with anyone, most of the time when you need a boundary, the other person being, thing, whatever, in no way wants the same motherfucking boundary as you know.
Aminatou: [laughter]
Cleo: No way.
Aminatou: [laughter] Well that’s how it works.
Cleo: Well that hasn’t happened to me. Like, I have never had that conversation with my mom or any other family member or a work person where I had to sit down and say, I really need this. This is really important to me. And there hasn't been something because people are either, uh I don't want that, you know, like that's not what I'm interested in and that's not how I would like this to be, and I don't care about what you want, what you need in order for this to be. Or they have a moment of, kind of, this shame, that's like a little feeling, a little weird that they didn't know that you were uncomfortable, that they were causing harm unintentionally or whatever.
Aminatou: mmhmm
Cleo: And it's, it's sticky, you know what I mean? And so, you know I can't tell you how many times I’ll have someone, like, kind of whether it's like DM me or like something. And they'll say just something kind of like, not like rude, but they'll be kind of like, you should be duhduhduh and it's like literally like something that's like so out of line, you know. And like every now and again I'll respond and the amount of times people are like, oh, I really didn't think you would respond to this. And I always remember thinking like, you know, it's not that I want, I want to engage, but what I do want to do is instill the boundary that, you know, you have to remember that there's a human being on the other side of this device. And like putting my beating heart in the forefront of all of my interactions is a critical boundary for me, you know. So that it's not whether it's a person you might hold on a pedestal, or a person you may think is not human because you think they're dumb and hate their work, or whatever it might be. But like, what we want is to have the full extent of our humanity acknowledged. You know, you want to be able to be seen as a, as a person and that is basically my first and foremost boundary. But when it comes to the community, it's like, it's really like any other relationship. It's like what are the boundaries you need? How much of your home are you willing, home life. Are you willing to share? How much of your friend life are you willing to open, you know, open up to without losing the intimacy? And you know, it requires kind of this constant check in with yourself because you want to, like, know that you're living a life. You know, my friend Stevie, she's my best girlfriend from New Orleans. And she wrote this thing the other day online. She was like, I'd rather be free than wear a crown on the Internet. And I was like, it's so true. So much of what you all of us and I don't care if you have 10 or 20 followers or two million or whatever it could be. It's it's about making sure you're living a life, because that is like the indicator of, like how to find your joy or move through the toughest, in the toughest moments of your life, the Internet is probably the worst place on Earth for you.
Aminatou: I mean, so much that you just said, I'm just finding that, I'm nodding or I'm like, oh my, like, thank you for saying that. Because, you know, like the thing about boundaries, I think, for me is especially for us as black women, boundaries are useful in two ways. One, it is the number one way to find out who doesn't respect you. It doesn't matter what the boundary is like. It's like, say, the most outlandish one or the most simple one you want. The way that people react is that's a very good barometer for like, is this person in my corner or not? And do they respect me or not?
Cleo: Or do they even, are they even capable? You know, I mean, so much of what we find in friendships over time is, is what people are capable of.
Aminatou: Ooh and then the next thing I think that, like is do for you is that you also just learn about yourself, you know, where you get to say, like, okay, it's my own practice of respecting myself and respecting my time and trying to figure out like what is making me tick. So I feel that the thing also that you said about Stevie is it's bringing up a lot for me because I think that we are living in this time where, for people around our age at least, there is this like real pressure or like, I guess a perception that people have that the totality of who you are is who is in the frame that they see on the phone.
Cleo: mmhmm
Aminatou: And like no, no. Like, this is edited. This is produced. It's me. It is like one hundred percent a facet of me, but it does not begin to scratch the surface of who I am and my intimate relationships. And I find it all really hard because the capitalist pressure and the like definitely like, Internet right now pressure is that everyone is supposed to be authentic and everyone is supposed to be like, have an authentic voice, whatever that means. And I was like, you can have an authentic voice without completely just being a robot. You know?
Cleo: And also by the way, you'll never have to think about how to have an authentic voice if you live an authentic life.
Aminatou: I mean, that is true, but who is going to tell everyone that, hello?
Cleo: I know. Wait, hold on. I just, I just had Steve send me her quote so I can quote it directly, like. Exactly. And she said. Steve's quote is, I'm inconsistent on social because I'm a real person, I don't always have something to say. Sometimes I'm too tired to play. I tell people, don't use, quote unquote, brand to describe my life's work, I'm not manufactured nor a slave. My work is about legacy and I do it in my own space and time. And then she says, I'd rather be free than crowned.
Aminatou: Oh that is like really hitting me in the gut, like especially the thing about legacy, because so much of the way that we work right now, it's everything has to be right now, right now, right now, right now. You know and earlier you had said that part of what was hard about being creative is that there's not a time to reflect. I was, I was reading this Toni Morrison interview earlier this week, like reading, watching, I forget. But the question was, it was like, oh, Toni, do you write every day? And I guess, like, if you're a writer, you're supposed to say yes to that. And she said, no, I don't write every day, but I think every day. And, and that has just really stayed with me. Of what I like, what am I thinking about? What, where does my thought life go? You know, and what is this all building towards? Because the treadmill of vomit out the next idea that you have is just not working for me. And I think that if you want to be in the business of making something that endures, it does require taking some time. [music]
[ad]
Cleo: The past seven years, I've basically in the past five years will have put out like four books and so it's definitely cost me a lot, you know. Definitely in life wise and also benefited me and so many beautiful ways. And I'm so grateful for the journey, but as I was coming into this year, I was mostly reflecting on, you know, putting out a book in March and it being my last book for the foreseeable future. So knowing that, I wanted to take a pause to kind of research and live and not know for a while, and especially as a Virgo is very not me.
Aminatou: [laughter]
Cleo: And I actually want to dictate my life right now based on, like, how I want to feel, not what I want to do. And I really wondered, I was like, how do I want to feel? And my personhood every day, how do I want to feel in my motherhood every day? How do I want to feel in my partnership every day? And what does it look like to landscape, a life, a work life, and parent life around those things. And I still don't really know what that looks like, but I was like I was just felt so grateful that how I was kind of coming into this next phase of my life was based on, like, really doubling and tripling down on connecting with how I feel about every little thing I do. Whether it's the amount of minutes I'm on online or how I interact with my own community or when writing feels good and when it doesn't. And that's been like a really cool space to be in.
Aminatou: This makes me so happy for you, Cleo, because you are like truly your work ethic is iconic. You, you work a lot. And I don't mean that in a like you're always busy and the work is like you're just like busy and you're cultivating the cult of busyness. But I think that I have really gotten to see you do a lot of different things. And the way that you flex both, you're like the creative part of your brain and then the business part of your brain is also something that is just it's really inspiring to me. I just have really appreciated how you are, like, really thoughtful about the things that you want to make. But you are also really thoughtful about how they are to reach the people that need to get them, you know?. And I think that sometimes, those are not sometimes, those are definitely like two different skill sets. And it's been really cool just to see, to see that you can do all of that. So I, I am excited for you about what the next thing is. And more importantly, I'm excited for you to get a little bit of rest.
Cleo: Yeah, right. I’m most worried about the no things, the not things I'm doing. The nothing.
Aminatou: But I mean nothing is something and nothing, you know, like it's good to, it's good to just take, to take a long break. It's also great because there was a time in our lives where we could not afford to take the mental break at all. And in fact, we were, we would be terrified that we didn't have a next thing on board. So in a way, it just really showcases some growth that I think is really important to celebrate. You know, like, okay, like this is not a position I would have found myself in a decade ago or even five years ago. But now I'm here and it's because you're, like, worked really hard for it.
Cleo: Well, you know, it's also just really interesting because when you think about our kind of space, the spaces we're in and in our mind and at our our age, when we're we're coming up in New York, like you were really we were really coming up under this kind of coming up in our adult years coming up, you know, not like teenagers, but we were really still under that umbrella of this concept of, like, It Girl, you know, like like there was this very distinct language around, like, women don't like these these kind of like…
Aminatou: Yeah like who is the woman that's going to make it?
Cleo: And it's of the moment. And it was always like a thing of the moment because that was like media narratives around, like young women who were able to do things at a younger age. And a lot of that because of the Internet, you know, because we were able to cultivate these these, kind of, communities, whether it was on pod, from podcasting, or from Instagram or from Twitter or from whatever. And so I just remember thinking, like, wow, like do we get to have, like, lifelong careers or is everything like fifteen minutes of something? And then you were just like, oh, but if the goal is not like fame, then you don't have to worry about the fifteen minute thing.
Aminatou: One hundred percent.
Cleo: You know, you don't need that, like that's, that's when the, the time part of it can either. Really mess with you or not, but then when you're just kind of like, oh, right, I want a life, not just a job.
Aminatou: RIght.
Cleo: And I want to know, like a community, not just an audience, all of those things start to shift. But it did take a while, I think, for our generation to kind of like especially of the New York girls, to kind of shake that idea of like it of the moment, this thing, because you were like, gosh, do I get to like you have my like Joni Mitchell years, like Carly Simon [laughter] or you know, or like…
Aminatou: The thing that's easy, though, is it girls do not look like us. And so there is something really liberating about that, if I can sort of, being mad that you are not, like, sad that you're not being reflected in the media or that no one is going, you're not a contender. There is something about it that is really liberating because it means that you just get to do the work that you want to do and the world will catch up. And I really, I really appreciate that and I was like, I'm so glad that I did not get caught up and flame out at twenty-four.
Cleo: Yeah. Because by the way, you know, we saw what had happened to a lot of people around us, you know, and, and I think about that a lot because I was like, even as because I don't know, it's so random that I brought that up. But it was because I was thinking like where did that scarcity come from? Like afraid to take a break. And I was like, you know, like it was really just instilled still like that New York, you know like ten years ago kind of thing of how they just treated you like young women, you know.
Aminatou: Oh, so depressing. I want to talk about things that are not depressing and also very superficial. Well, two things. One, I have to ask, because Ann is so curious and I too am curious. Your handwriting is gorgeous, just like did you know were you like one of those kids that you would doodle all day and you were like, one day this handwriting is going to make money? Or was this like a pleasant surprise for you?
Cleo: You know, it's really funny because, you know, I have basically two handwriting I use. One I have a cursive handwriting that I use pretty often. And then I have my what is it called? It's non cursive like block letters, I guess, because it's, isn't it? So we're going to, like, stop teaching cursive in schools.
Aminatou: Well, listen, I will tell you that I don't know how to write at all because I had to learn how to write in French school. And then when I went to American school, they were using block letters. Long story short, my handwriting is awful.
Cleo: [laughter]
Aminatou: Every single day I go on the Internet to be like, which child's book can I buy to learn to teach myself how to write? I think that should be the mix of my pandemic, like work and learn how to write. So any time I see my friends handwritings, I am. So it's like the only thing that I'm like, jealous of. I'll see it and I'm like, I want to. But you are at the top of the handwriting list.
Cleo: It's really funny because it wasn't really a mostly artistic decision to fill in the letters, which is what people ask me a lot. But it was for me, I'm horrible at spelling and it was the only way I could proofread things. And my, my real kryptonite is that I write sentences and I'll put the same word twice in a row is is know. And so how I would go back to proofread my writing before putting it online would be to fill in the letters.
Aminatou: Wow.
Cleo: You know, to kind of help me, to kind of focus, focus in on paying, paying closer attention. And so that is pretty much the entire reason that I, I do that. And then other than that, you know, handwriting is also when you're writing, it's really all about the pen. I mean, I think sometimes that if I was writing with the, like even I could see it in some of the really early posts on Instagram. I was writing with like a, like a classic, like big pen. It doesn't look the same. So much of when y your handwriting will look nice is just having like a really kind of silky nice pen.
Aminatou: I'm going to call you as soon as we hang up from doing this podcast so you can be my writing coach.
Cleo: I'll send you some good pens and paper.
Aminatou: This is, this is the next iteration. Okay, here's my other very superficial thing. You you are the only person that I will pick up the phone for if you call and I'm in the middle of, like, doing my skincare, I just that you're the only person who will see me naked…
Cleo: Do you remember like the last time we FaceTime and we were both on our towels just getting out of the shower.
Aminatou: One hundred percent. Like I said, you're the only person on the phone for, in that state. Your skin always looks like great. So what's the secret. What's that like Cleo skincare routine.
Cleo: You know, it's really funny. I always feel like I could be like twenty-five percent cuter if I could just get skin care down. But I'm such a basic bitch like I literally use Cetaphil and that's it. And I don't even really use moisturizer or anything like that. I use, like a little bit of like a Tatcha Spray, but like a, like a misting spray to create some type of moisture. One thing I do a lot is I think what are the best things you could do, whether you're like growing it right outside your window in New York or under, like, a little heat lamp or something is to have an aloe plant because, like, I put a lot of raw aloe on my face when I when I'm breaking out. And if you grow the plant, the plants like two ninety-nine and you can just keep it for a long time and it kind of regenerates. But especially after having Memphis, your skin is just doing such crazy things constantly because your hormones are so wacky and so having just kind of like very basic, I've tried like cool skin care things before, like I've gotten fancy facials and like everyone else, you end up like walking away with like five hundred dollars worth of the facial products and you use them. And we're kind of like, I don't even know what to do with all this stuff. And I don't know if it makes a difference or if my skin just looks good because I got a whole facial, you know.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh.
Cleo: And so but I have found that with having very sensitive skin, as I have now, even one year postpartum of Memphis, it's like really, really simple, more simple the better. So I just even just like if I was going to break it down to three things beyond even using, like, the torture spray, which is pretty expensive, I would say, like Cetaphil, rosewater spray, just like the cheap one in the pink bottle and a little aloe. And I would recommend those three to anyone and you can get them all for probably under ten dollars.
Aminatou: The fact that you said to Cetaphil is making me furious because my number one skincare nemesis is Pharrell, who just is getting younger. And I was like, just admit it. You are eating. You are like drinking the blood of small children. But any time he's asked about his skincare routine, he's like, oh, it's nothing. It's just beautiful. And I was like, you are a liar. Well, so now you have triggered me.
Cleo: [laughter] So sorry.
Aminatou: OK, here is the last thing I want to ask you, Cleo. I have really loved that I knew you before you were a mother and now I know you as a mother. And it is so beautiful to see. But I really appreciate that you are a friend who made that transition from single ready to mingle, to have a partner. And you're like, no, I'm a baby. And it did not change our friendship, you know, and we've really navigated those things.
Cleo: Yeah
Aminatou: And I think that's so much of it is because it's because we talked about it. But I think it's also because you are a really thoughtful person who is like, okay, look, here is, here's how my life has changed and here's how we're, we are going to do that. And I personally love it. And it's also a really fraught area of friendship, I think, for a lot of people. And so I am just wondering, you know, if you have something to say to someone who is afraid of what that transition means for their friendships and for the rest of their life.
Cleo: You know, I think that it just requires grace on both ends. And so I remember one of the things that was one of the moments I just felt so lucky to have you as a friend is we were making plans to see each other. And I think we were in, it was in L.A. I had just had Memphis. Maybe you were coming over to see her because she was just born.
Aminatou: Yes.
Cleo: And you met Memphis really early. So it would have been through in the phase where I was still pretty narcoleptic because like two hours at a time. And so you had some scheduling stuff? I had some scheduling stuff. I fell asleep. And then finally we got it together and you came over. But it was like maybe five hours later than her original plan. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, because I thought this and that. And you were like, honestly, at this time in our lives, if there's one thing we need to be, it's graceful with scheduling. And I just remember thinking like that was at that exact moment in my life exactly what I really needed to hear from my friend as I'm trying to figure out all of these pieces, while including a bunch of new pieces. That like the scheduling, scheduling being weird isn't a lack of prioritizing, do you know what I mean?
Aminatou: Yeah
Cleo: Actually, all these things are priorities. I and I always remember this talk that Gloria Steinem gave once and someone said to her, there's so many things that are so important and worth fighting for, like how do you prioritize which issue when? And she goes, you don't. She was like, oh, yeah, that's easy. You don't. And I remember thinking, like when I had Memphis and Simon entering our lives, it was like I was like I actually just never planned on trying to, like, participate in the delusion of balance or like prioritizing friends versus this versus this. But actually like, always kind of having this kind of like there are a lot of things that are important to me, there is a lot of things that make up who I am. And in every day, just like with self care, it just might need to look different every single day and kind of fit in different spaces every single day. And so to have these level sets with your friends where you're like, you know what, like I remember even thinking, which is kind of like a weird thing to say because you hear mom say it a lot, but like, I love Memphis so much, but I didn't have that feeling that was like I have never loved like this or like you never have know that kind of loving child. Because I was like, you know, to me, love is like a thing, it's like almost like a line where someone's like once they're on the side of your love, like you're just there in the love space.
Aminatou: And you’re like, I have loved before. Thank you.
Cleo: Yeah and like, I just I did I was like, you know, I have just spent so many years really loving my girlfriends and I really love her father. And like and I really have spent so much of my adult life so kind of in this space of like what love means and its value and its, and how I, you know, whether give it or experience it. And I literally just lumped in with everybody else I love. And I was like, yeah, I love her too. This other thing, this new thing I really, really love. And so in that I felt like with my friends and I would say to anyone is just to kind of like have the moment to pause, and be like I'm trying to figure out how all of these new things work and fit and like mix. And it's not even about prioritizing or shifting anyone out closer or nearer or whatever, but it's just about what it feels like to make these things whole on a daily basis, knowing that from one day to the next it will not be the same.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's like a there is a new, there are new elements in the mix and we are all going to have to adjust.
Cleo: Yeah. And, and, it's exciting to adjust. Like I always said, that if there is one thing I think if I, if someone asked me that question of like, what's the secret to your success? If my answer to that question would be every single time, it would be my ability to be excited for or adapt to change with like openness. I've always been someone who's been ready to have new information change the way I thought about something or have a new idea come and change the entire way I looked at my work or my life or whatever and just really be excited and up for the challenge of change. And so with motherhood, I kind of applied that same spirit to it. And, and it did, it did help so much.
Aminatou: Well, I love that you’re mom because it means that I get to have fun with your child. So thank you. And--
Cleo: Oh my gosh. Are you coming to her soon? To be with us?
Aminatou: I am coming to be with you very soon because this is untenable and it's silly. And one of the last things that I did before the world change was that you and I canceled our dinner plans.
Cleo: I know. And so you've got an earlier flight because of covid.
Aminatou: It's the last time I'm ever canceling dinner plans. So that's that on that. I love you so much, Cleo. I hope that you're having a good day and squeeze everyone in your house for me. Cleo: I will. I love you so much. Thank you for having me on. This was such a pleasure.
[Interview ends]
Ann: What a joy. Thank you for that.
Aminatou: Truly the best. So wise. So generous. I feel, you know, so many things about the pandemic have been really, really, really painful, but I am really enjoying just getting to check in with, like, far flung pals. And it's really getting me excited about the day one day when Joe Biden and Kamala will let us. We like each other again. Ann: It'll be so nice. And I can't wait to read What the Road Said.
Aminatou: And on the list for all of my kiddos, I will see you on the Internet, Ann.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.