Cozy Content
2/5/21 - This episode is all about comfort in challenging times and staying true to yourself. We talk with a paragon of creating cozy feelings, Jenny Han, the author behind the book and Netflix series To All the Boys I've Loved Before.
How to decide what to say yes to?
How do you take time for yourself?
How do you deal with gatekeepers (usually white) who want to see characters of color grappling more directly with their racial identity?
What can we expect from the final To All the Boys movie?
Which Little Women character are you?
All this AND Aminatou confesses that she is squeamish about romances like Pride and Prejudice and Bridgerton.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: COZY CONTENT
[Ads]Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. What’s on the show today? Let’s get right into that. Let’s talk about the show.
Aminatou: Let’s get into it! You probably noticed that we are on a tear of phone-a-friends, because we love calling our friends right now.
Ann: Listen, this is what life is all about in general but also on this show.
Aminatou: Yeah, I’m like-- someone else, tell me how you are spiraling in your own apartment. [laughter] Anyway, today I called Jenny Han aka um you know like number one New York Times best selling author of To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before: the series. She’s also an executive producer for all three of the Netflix films. And she’s also the author of the other New York Times best selling series. Her books have been published in every language you have ever heard.
[theme song]
Aminatou: Jenny is a former librarian. She got her MFA in creative writing at the New School. She lives in Brooklyn. She really is just a fabulous fabulous fabulous and very hard working and really generous human being. So, here’s Jenny…
[Interview begins]
Aminatou: Hi Jenny Han, thanks for being on Call Your Girlfriend!
Jenny: Hi, thank you for having me!
Aminatou: This is really fun for me because we haven’t done phone a friend in so long and uh I like miss calling my friends, so hi hi
[laughs]
Jenny: Hi, I’m very honored to be your friend.
Aminatou: You are really busy, Jenny Han. Um first, tell me about your pandemic, are you um, are you okay is the bad question, but are you like, are you in one piece?
Jenny: I mean yes, thanks to you. I have felt like, I don't know I mean, it has been a long year but I do think there have been good fruits to come out of it. Like um, you and I walk in the park, which has been really good for my soul. Um and--
Aminatou: Me too!
Jenny: --I’ve been really busy with work stuff, um so I think I hope when it’s over I’ll come out of it with some stuff to show for it, I guess.
Aminatou: agh you used this analogy the other day, like the image the other day, when we were walking, about um you know being like butterflies in cocoons
[laughs]
Aminatou: like okay chrysalis or whatever that process is called is over
Jenny: Chrysalis, I was about to do it again, but it’s so cheesy. Sorry I’m laughing at my butterfly analogy. Um no it’s cheesy but --
Aminatou: I’m laughing because it was like the first thing to make me happy because I was like you know what, this time is just weird and complicated. And obviously we are anxious and we’re scared and terrified half of the time, but every once in a while we just sit down and do work and I was like okay one day someone will see this work.
Jenny: exactly
Aminatou: It’s uh wild. What else has been bringing you, uh like uh, small sense of like peace in the quarantine.
Jenny: I have spent a lot of time with my little nephews. I was at my sister’s house for most of this uh quarantine, uh in DC. And it was a whole different rhythm for me because you know I’m used to being alone and I just had these like two little gremlins who were like always by my side, waking me up in the morning or wanting attention during the day when I was trying to work. And I feel really lucky that I got to have that time because you know they’re only little for that short period of time and then it’s over and I would’ve never had the time if this had never happened.
Aminatou: Yeah, it’s so funny that you say that because I remember at the beginning of quarantine you know all the memes that were like hmm the people without children are having a good time. And you and I got to be people without children who spent our quarantine with a lot of children actually, so I was like eh I don’t know about this community model actually guys. I really agree without about just like having kids around, is there anything you feel about like very young people, like children, that has been like good for your work. I know we all complain like all the time about how it’s like a time suck, but have you found some creativity or a new spark that you didn’t have because you’re not like surrounded by kids?
Jenny: Oh well, I’ll say when I was with them I was valuing my time more. You know, I didn’t watch tv because I was busy all the time and then when I did have free time I was working. Um and now that I’m back in my regular life, I was trying to prepare for this by watching tv that I had been meaning to watch and you know what I did I ended up watching The Challenge on MTV until like four, until like four-thirty in the morning last night. Even though my plan had been, oh I’m gonna watch Bridgerton, I’m gonna watch Promising Young Woman, so I’d have interesting things to say and then I literally stayed up until four-thirty in the morning watching the challenge.
Aminatou: So you know I don’t like it when you stay up that late, but also tell me about the challenge. I am saving, I am saving it to rewatch for when I’m having like a low pandemic moment because I used to be obsessed with that genre of MTV programming.
Jenny: Oh my god, it may be the trashiest thing about me but the challenge is like my favorite show and I had missed a whole season because I was gone, so I was watching that and there’s a new one right now but basically it’s like old real world, road rules, and now because of like reality tv, they’ve got some big brother folks and like other reality show stars on the show and they just compete against each other. And you know like CT is like the star of the show and he’s been on since like, I wanna say, 2002 or something like that.
Aminatou: I’m a CT-head, don’t worry about that.
Jenny: Oh I’m so relieved you know what the challenge is, I think it’s a small group of people I know who know what the challenge is.
Aminatou: It’s like a perfect era of like reality television, you know where it was when MTV was moving away from doing real world and they were introducing, basically they were introducing the people from every season from every one of their reality shows together and it, I don’t know, at the time I was like wow how do these people even learn how to be together and appreciated that it wasn’t just sitting in a house, you know? Because the drama of sitting in a house is very different than like the drama of like let’s try to win this competition and if you know anything about me, it’s that my secret favorite tv show is The American Race and anytime I meet a new person, like whether they’re a friend or whatever, I always think are we going to be a good amazing race team.
Jenny: oh my gosh, that’s like me when I’m on the subway. Do you ever have the thought when you’re on the subway and you look around and you’re like that’s the person I’d team up with if things got really crazy down here. You know what I mean?
Aminatou: All the time, all the time! I always have the thought of who is the most prepared person in this subway. [laughs]
Jenny: I also have the thought of like who would I hook up with if I had to absolutely hook up with someone on this train, I’ve had that thought as well. But normally it’s the thought of like a zombie apocalypse or like you know some sort of um hostage situation, are you on the run, so I guess it’s sort of amazing race-esque.
Aminatou: I um, first for all I love that you’re like who would I hook up? You’re like in Snowpiercer like who must I hook up with? Because that is how you would win the game.
[laughs]
Aminatou: I love that the train just makes you observe people, like I do that all, like all the time and it um it’s funny and I can’t believe I’m like saying it like out loud. Um what other, what other tv shows are you watching?
Jenny: Um okay so I am watching Bridgerton um which is exactly my kind of like candy, delicious you know period drama but sexy is you know right up my alley, but I’ve only just begun.
Aminatou: Did you read the books?
Jenny: I think I may have read the books like a long long time ago, so it’s all new to me but you know with romance, there’s a sort of preordained happy ending anyways but it’s fun to watch.
Aminatou: I uh I watched two minutes of it and it was too sexy for me.
Jenny: what!
Aminatou: It was too sexy for me, it’s because you know I like have a hard time with romance and the day I tried to watch Bridgerton I was not in the right frame of mind for it and I was very distracted, so like I wasn’t paying attention and it’s like gossip girl you know? You kind of have to pay attention to the set up and next thing you know, there’s like a violin version of a pop song and people are having really intense sexual intercourse and I was like I cannot handle this right now. [laughter] It was just too much for me but I know I’ll come back to it. I think I’m, I’ve always been that way about romance. It’s funny, it’s like am I prude or am I just not in the mood?
Jenny: So wait you don’t like to watch romance when there’s like any type of sex involved? You prefer like the chased kind of romance--
Aminatou: Okay let’s be fair here, the sex of the Shonda Rhimes shows is out of control. And no I think it’s the too much of um, I think what’s always made me uncomfortable about romance is obviously my own stuff, right? Like it’s too earnest, it’s too earnest, they’re saying all the quiet things out loud and I know I can’t handle it. You know like even in college my roommates would watch Pride and Prejudice and I would watch it and I would feel myself blush and I was like what is wrong with me? Like I cannot handle the earnestness of like too many like love stories, I just wanna watch action movies.
Jenny: Wait, which version though? The Keira Knightley one or the Jennifer Ehle one?
Aminatou: I’ve seen all of them. I love the Keira Knightley, only because they like speed it up so much. You know they’re like okay we’re just gonna, you know the travel scenes happen really fast. Like listen, I like both of them, I would not say I love both of them. I just like learned a lot about how some of that stuff, it’s just like too earnest for me, but that’s my own damage. I’m working on it.
Jenny: I rented um the Pride and Prejudice miniseries at the like video store in my college town. It was like vhs I think it was and I remember watching it late at night and my roommates were sleeping and I felt like these like swoons, like you know when you feel like a swell of emotion like rise over you, like I kept feeling these swoons. I think that’s the first time I felt that while I was watching tv or a movie, like I felt it when I read a romance novel, but just these like swells like an ocean swell over you of of..
Aminatou: oh man [laughs] I feel like I feel the swell too but what I’m saying is it makes me feel scared. I’m like ahh I’m gonna drown, I gotta run.
[laughs]
Jenny: I’m like let me throw my body into the abyss, let it wash over me.
Aminatou: So so like I have bewitched you body and soul, that does it for you?
Jenny: No actually, because that was a line they put in for I believe that line is not not original to the book, something they put in for the Keira Knightley version.
Aminatou: You're blowing my mind right now. Also, I hate Mr. Darcy like I think the toxic and I don't like it at all. And that's my deep truth. And if you must cancel me, cancel me. But that's that's the real problem of, like, those movies for me, as I was like, these matches are bad and there's a lot of toxicity here. And I'm not here for it
Jenny: Well, I'll leave it at that and I'll let the Internet cancel you for that.
Aminatou: Cancel, please don't cancel me. I'm working on it. I'm working on it. This is why we're looking is why I'm in therapy so I can watch you know like Mr. Darcy and Mr. Bingley and not lose my my mind. OK, so you're watching Bridgerton. What else are you watching?
Jenny: Southern charm another. I know my taste sounds so lays potato chip right now. It's hard, it's so hard to find focus these days and it's almost like it's just easy to put that on and then I can kind of relax and play like Tetris on my computer as that plays in the background almost. And I think the last thing I watched, I tend to like, gobble it all up in one sitting. If I watched the Queen's Gambit in one night, that's that's my M.O. usually all at once.
Aminatou: I yeah. I mean, listen, I love that you were like Lay's potato chips. You know me, I, I don't believe in like a guilty pleasures--
Jenny: Me either, me either. But I was genuinely trying to prepare to have a good conversation with you. And so like last night I was reading like very quickly reading my Minor Feelings by Cathy Park, Hong Kong, so good and so good. But I'm like, I gotta, I got to be a reader. And um this I started out really strong in pandemic reading a lot of books, and then I just like tapered. So the most I can do is like my Cook's Illustrated magazine or now I did start reading my Minor Feelings just so I could sound a little bit more scholarly than Cook's Illustrated.
Aminatou: You are so ridiculous. I really almost feel like love my Minor Feelings and like the book is amazing and everyone should read it. But I like. Don't you feel that first of all, in the pandemic, every one of your habits is weird? Like I I've gone through phases of reading where sometimes it's all I want to do is read because I cannot look at a screen. And then there are other times where when I look at the book, I can't even make any sense of the words, because whatever part of my brain that I used to read is the same part that gets anxious. So I feel like this is just not representative. It's like every bit of entertainment is actually about self soothing some how.
Jenny: That sounds right. Although I can't even just blame it on twenty twenty because I think for a while now it's almost like my brain has been sort of re-programed to be like, oh I should check and see if I have an email or like a tweet or something that's been responded to poorly, and I'm now canceled on Twitter and I'm got to quickly go check like that kind of like anxiousness that makes it very hard for me to sink in to the book
Aminatou: The like being on demand all the time. Is that what are your like, kind of coping mechanisms for that? Because I am sure that you are someone who gets like more email than the general population. You also got more like, you know, because of your work. You have a lot of fans and a lot of people that want to interact like you have. Do you have a way that you handle all of it or do you just like look at look at all of it and respond to all of it?
Jenny: It's funny that you should ask that, because I literally this morning I remembered my personal strategy for that. I had forgotten. And now as I'm getting a lot of requests for like press and stuff for the final two, all the boys movie, I could feel myself starting to get stressed out again. And then I remembered the little strategy I came up with on the first movie, which is when I get asked to do something, I ask myself three questions, which are is it fun? Is it easy? And is it really worth it? And I think usually it's a yes on one of those, but it's rare to have two of those and even rarer for the three. And so I try to only say yes to things that are the two because it kind of like, I don't know, it cuts down a lot of the dross, I guess to just boil it down to three questions. And I don't have to sit there agonizing over. But should I say yes, because I feel bad, because the favor or sort of questions kind of magically disappear once I can can just narrow it down to the three questions.
Aminatou: I love that. And then I talked about that for our New Year's episode about having like a decision matrix for yourself. And mine is like very similar, where I have a set of questions that I ask myself. But you are you are very kind to do two out of three. I'm like, I really want to really hit the three out of three, even though it's not possible all the time. And another thing I think I think about a lot is how the request comes in, because I do think about how people ask you for either work or a favor or however it is. The way that they ask you is also very representative of how the experience will go. You know, it was like really scatterbrained, like kind of request that's urgent. I was like, you're probably not respecting my time and that's how this is going to go. Or you know and I try to be mindful also. But the tension is there and you are someone who is very public facing. So I'm sure that it's a lot. How do you decide how you just like take time for yourself to just, like, recharge your own batteries or are you super extroverted and you can be out there all the time?
Jenny: I mean, I think it's my Challenge time, you know, like when I'm laying on the couch, kind of just watching The Challenge and able to lose myself in the drama of that episode. It's my time to sort of unwind. And I guess I mean, I'm technically an extrovert, so I think I do enjoy being out there. But then I definitely am also like the Energizer Bunny where I need to recharge for like 20 minutes before I can get back up again.
Aminatou: And you are. You are. Go, go, go. Well, let's talk about the third to all the boys, because I have been waiting for this for exactly one year. Exactly. It's finally here. I wish Netflix had given it to me when I asked for it a year ago. But here we are. I am really excited. Jenny, are you excited?
Jenny: Yeah, I'm excited. I mean, it's bittersweet. Like, I keep posting all these tik toks of how much they've grown and how little they were once and how they're adults now. And that that is like is sad and also kind of lovely for me to just kind of watch that transformation. But it's always that say goodbye. This, though, I don't know, we worked on movies two and three back to back. So it feels like it's been forever since we finished it.
Aminatou: Oh, man, that's such a very strange feeling. I think that obviously anyone who writes books like kind of gets that, you work on something and then like later, later it's out in the world. But I feel like this is even more intense because it's finally out and it does feel like the closing of like that curtain at least.
Jenny: Yeah, and gosh, I mean, I wrote that first book was published in 2014, but I had the idea for it in 2010. So it's literally been more than a decade of of of this story. But I have loved living in Lara Jean's world and spending time with all these characters. And what's more, I have loved being able to connect with fans over the books and the movies. I felt really emotional when I was when the trailer went up and people were posting all their reactions and saying how, you know, I was in middle school when the first book came out and now I'm graduating college. Now I have my first job. And that made me tear up just to think like what an honor it is to be on these people's journey and like their own coming of age
Aminatou: Ah Jenny, I'm getting so emotional. I like one of the best things about the books and the movies and your writing in general is that you're like your imagination, first of all, is iconic. Like, I cannot I don't know how to write anything that is not like based on research. So it's like enter your brain and be like, what is it like to have an imagination? But it's like whenever I like in reading your books and in watching the in watching the movies you are so good at, just like finding these really just like tender moments like the Christmas cookie bonanza, just seems like
these things just like I feel the atmosphere of how sweet this is--
Jenny: oh thank you
Aminatou: And I know that you've talked before about how you don't you know, you don't have, like, strict outlines for your books. And so I wonder if, like, how much like you're planning it or how much it's like it just really tumbling out of you?
Jenny: I plan it not at all. And I think I sometimes just try to make myself feel that cozy feeling as I'm writing it, as I hope that readers feel really cozy and kind of warm as they're reading it. I don't outline and I don't write in order and I kind of just go with the flow. And I think of it like surfing, even though I don't surf, but I just get out there and wait for the big waves and then I just kind of ride the wave to shore for as far as it'll take me. And so I think now that I'm doing some screenwriting, though, it's a really different experience and I'm having to outline. But it's like almost like a different brain than I'm using.
Aminatou: I love that. I also love that, like at its core, some of the story of the books is really about the loss of a parent. And while it doesn't like focus on that grief all the time, it's not like a grief driven story. It is like ever present in the entire subtext of the book. And even in the movies, you feel it so much. And I wonder, like what your decision was around, like writing about that situation in general?
Jenny: I think that, wow, this is like really getting into it. But like, I think weirdly, I mean, as a kid, I've always had that fear about losing my mom or like thinking about when she was going to die. And it's something I just want to write about and think about. What if I didn't have my mom? Also I think I didn't realize it until after I had written the book and I was on tour for the book and I was talking about it, which was that what I was actually writing about was families changing and how you can't stop that change from happening. But it doesn't always have to be a bad change. And at the time, my sister was getting married and we were planning her wedding. And I think I was just feeling so many different emotions about it and feeling like some sense of loss in that our family was now irrevocably changed and it was going to be the two of us and my parents anymore. And it wasn't going to be, she and I would always like sleep in the same bed on Christmas Eve. And I think I felt like some sadness about it. And so as To All the Boys begins, Lara Jean is like grappling with the fact that her older sister is going away to college and she feels kind of unmoored by that. And what happened for me was having my brother in law, who I really love and then now my nephews, you get to really see that change does not have to be a bad thing. And there can be such amazing things that come from that. And I guess also if there's anything I want in my young readers to take from it, is that like a changing family, something that happens like your whole life. People die, people get divorced, new life comes in. And it's something that you just have to brace yourself for for your entire life, and it's hard and I don't think it gets easier, but I also think as you get older, you can really see the ways that that change can bring joy into your life.
Aminatou: Listen, I'm in my mid thirties and I'm, like, barely learning that lesson.
[music break]
Aminatou: Genuinely Jenny, like I was so struck by like when the first movie came out, the conversations that it just like forced me to have with other people my age, you know, it's like we're not teens, like reading these books or watching them. And the level of enjoyment was just so you know, I think that I really cut across like all ages. Obviously, some of that was like like inappropriate, like thirsting for a young man. I'm not part of that group because I'm an appropriate thirster. But I just I love that experience of that. We can go in being like like Peter is kind of cute. And then you're like, oh, wow. Like, I am here, like, crying about my mom. And we're like talking about some of that also because you wrote like a family that was not like all white, like there was something about it I think that just like hit so differently because we are so used to being told these stories, like we hear these stories all the time from a very white lens and like, don't cancel me. I think white people make amazing television and movies and I have learned to love and learn from them. But there was really something really powerful about seeing a Korean American leader being like this is a different kind of American family. It's also an ordinary American family. And I think that that resonated for a lot of people. Do you hear about a lot when you talk to people about it?
Jenny Yeah, I mean, I think I'm so honored by that. I think I really went into writing the story, wanting to write a story about an American girl next door and how that can look a lot of different ways. But we've pretty much seen just the one kind of way for so long. I wanted to tell a story that the whole point wasn't about her being Asian. You know, like nobody's whole point. Is there a race?
Aminatou: What?
[Laughs]
Jenny: Most certainly it's not the most interesting thing about me. But before I think that most times when we would see a book with a main character who wasn't white, the whole point was their sort of struggle with their race. And I think that we didn't get to see the story where it's a part of the identity, but it's not the whole reason for the book. You know, and something I've heard many times over the years was like, well, why do they need to be Asian? They don't need to be anything. It is what it is, what it is. That's what they are. And you don't have to, like, explain.
Aminatou: Okay it's called description. Thank you.
Jenny: You know, I think people of color have had to explain their existence to prove their their right to be there. You know, and I was hoping with this book that there didn't need to be any kind of proof of life, I guess that she could just be what she was, you know. And um I don't know. I hope that. Especially for my young readers that they could read that and feel also represented by that experience. I think we need those those sort of like big epic stories about race. Yes, great. But also, can we also have just hey, there's a rom com. There's always have to be about pain and suffering and.
Aminatou: Right. Like sometimes people are just Asian, like it's like every time your memoir, sometimes people are Asian, the Jenny Han story.
Jenny: But yeah, exactly like not every time you have to be about internment camp or being bullied at school or whatever, you know, like it's like I like those too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not like saying I don't. I just think I think that to me the goal is to have that kind of breadth of experience, just a bigger palette to pick from.
Aminatou: I love hearing you talk about that, because clearly in the world that we work in and like media and in publishing and like for you for film and TV, there's always this pressure from gatekeepers to also explain that, you know, it's like they're always the stand-in for the audience. It's like, well, why would the audience want this or why isn't this black person talking about slavery or why isn't this Asian character talking about their own like pain? And I find that that is really holds us back from a lot of things. So I just, like, appreciate you saying that. You want to you just want to, like, create the work that you want to create. And it doesn't have to be imbued by this like fake sense of identity politics. The gatekeepers want it to have.
Jenny: And I think it's not with bad intentions, but it's also like, can you just step back a second and unpack what you're saying to me? Because a note that I have received before is like, can you make this character like more Asian? Like, can you give them like can you deal more with like, can you make make it more about their Asian experience? I've seen critics say that kind of thing to where they're like, well, I feel like there can be more about her being Asian. And I'm just wondering, like I think I get it. But I'm also like, if it's a white character, are you asking for more about their whiteness and how they like how they what their identity is as a white person, or are they just going to be a character?
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean, that kind of note is so telling because it's it says so much about, like, the person who was giving the note, but it also says so much about like what we consider to be racialized experiences or not. Because when I got a similar note about something else, I remember just feeling really defeated, not just because of the work that I was doing, but just the truth of like, what does it like, am I not black enough? Am I not that, you know. Like what like what do you what is the monolith here? Like, what is the thing that you are doing? And I think that part of what is so painful about having these conversations is the way that it always it makes you like doubt yourself, you know, and it makes you it makes you really like second guess a lot of choices that you do, because there is so much pressure, obviously, to look for representation and good representation. But I'm really at the point where I'm like, I'm ready to see, like, mediocre people of color win everywhere. And that's where I'm going to feel that there is a representation. But also, as you said, everything is not about racial pain. You know, I'm like people want to talk about love and people want to talk about their grief and their money and or whatever. And all of those experiences are not like racialized experiences.
Jenny: Yeah. And I'm really starting to struggle with that word, even representation and what that means, because I think that sometimes there's this feeling that if you're a storyteller, that you should be that your first directive or your goal should be representation in the story that you're telling. And I think from the creative perspective, you're trying to tell a good story. You're trying to write characters that feel really real and genuine. And first and foremost on my mind is not how am I ever resenting everybody with this? Because it's impossible. You can't represent everybody in your group. You're going to fail no matter what you do. So it's like, can you just tell a good story that people connect to? Like, that's that is my goal is not the goal is for me to be like I'm going to make all Asians proud with this thing, because if that was a goal, I would just be failing all the time because you're not gonna make everybody happy.
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean, but can I make myself proud? I'm like, yeah, um. Or tell the story that you want to tell. It's also just not a pressure, but like white creatives have. So again, I was like, again, a handicap, you know what I mean? I was like, here you go. Like, everyone just wants to tell the story they want to tell. And things do not have to be this fraught. I know that you can't give me, like, any spoilers or anything, like, exclusive about the third movie, but what can we look forward to?
Jenny: I think you can look forward to really seeing Laura Jean coming into her own. I think in the first movie, she has a lot of fears about being in the world and of not feeling really safe and protected and cozy. And I think the third film really sees her like literally kind of stepping out into the world like we're in Korea or in New York. We are not just in her her house and her her sort of smaller everyday existence. And I think it enables her to grow and stretch herself.
Aminatou: I'm like struck by the fact that she's going to Korea, because when I think of Lara Jean, she is the most like indoor cat kind of person. You know, in the Little Women universe of books, she is the Beth. She is not a Jo. Exactly. I'm just like justice for the Beths everywhere. Beth representation is important, but I always, like, really struck me. I was like, oh, wow. Like, you know, like a quiet girl who just wants to stay home. This girl is not looking for adventure and really not at all.
Jenny: Not at all happy for adventure, her being kind of forced to step out of those safe zones and then being like, oh, I kind of like it, you know, and I think she didn't want to. But now it's like it's a family vacation. It's a senior class trip. It's just these different opportunities that come her way. And she just takes them, which I think is brave. And actually, the book really started out as Beth representation because I thought about that family and how nobody ever says I want to be a Beth or I'm a Beth. People are like I'm a Jo, even an Amy.
Aminatou: I'm a Beth, who is an Amy? What? Who wants to be Amy
Jenny: Oh me, I’m an Amy.
[laughs]
Aminatou: I mean, it makes sense, but you would never betray like Amy betrays just how I feel. But that's how I know she’s a Beth, because I cannot stand Amy shenanigans.
Jenny: No, but like I can recognize some Amy qualities in myself. But I also I've got some Jo in me as well. But nobody I mean, except for you now I never hear people say I'm a Beth. And I thought, like, what is her sort of inner world like? What is interesting about this person who is mostly in her head and at home and that's kind of like Lara Jean’s origin story in a way.
Aminatou: I love that so much. When you were obviously like writing these books, you probably did not imagine that they would be global Netflix like phenomenal some someday. What has that experience been like of just like, oh, it's like a thing that, like so many writers aspire to. It's a thing that so many writers aspire to. But for you it became a reality. And I'm sure it's both fun and like a little bewildering.
Jenny: I think, I mean, I'll say that we made the movie first and then sold it to Netflix after. And I remember at first being like, oh, we I'd want it to be a wide release and the movie theaters to have that whole experience. And then when we sold Netflix, there really wasn't a kind of like template for that experience as an author. I mean, Kissing Booth had been a book originally, but people really found a kissing booth through the movie, I think it was when it had its really big success. But there hadn't been I can't even remember which other movies they did that were books. In fact, they had done a ton of movies. It was more of like TV shows. Right. So they had Thirteen Reasons Why I believe and Orange is the New Black. But this was like, I guess in terms seventeen to just a few years ago. But things have changed so much since then in terms of how many movies they make. I think they're going to make seventy one movies this year, which is a lot of movies. And so I don't think any of us knew what to expect the experience. And then it ended up just being like an explosion. And it's kind of the only way. And the only way that can happen was they are in millions and millions of people's homes. Like it's like millions of people saw that movie the first month because Netflix is like a global sensation. And I feel like this is going to sound so corny, but like my experience with Netflix has been really wonderful and the people that I've worked with have been genuinely great. And they've been like, I don't know, maybe they're good actors. But like I have had a feeling this whole time that they are really honored to tell the story and they and they love it and they truly love Lara Jean. And again maybe they're all like me. I'm lying to you.
Aminatou: I think when you work with people that are good to you and you have. A good working relationship, I think that you know that you know what I mean, and it is hard it's hard to have good working relationships across like enormous organizations, you know, and or cross just like a project that's this big because there are so many hands in it. So I feel that if you feel good about it, it's probably because it is not because you are like it is.
Jenny: And I don't I don't take it for granted for one second. I don't think any of it for granted for the way that Netflix has handled the movies, the way that, you know, the fans have responded to it and been like so open hearted and loving about it that I will always be grateful for.
Aminatou: OK, let's rewind like a baby. Jenny Horne in college things. She wants to be a writer, you know, when you're grinding away. First of all, what was your first job like ever job?
Jenny: You had a real job.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Jenny: Olive Garden. Olive Garden.
Aminatou: What did you do?
Jenny: I was a server. I was probably the worst server in history. Like, I was an amazing server. If I had two tables, that would be the best service in our life. Then you give me three tables and…
Aminatou: Oh no, no, I didn't know about you. But like, it is my longest held belief that anyone who works in food service has, like, incredible work ethic and is an amazing person, so.
Jenny: Oh, well, well, but I don't know, because like I said, I was not a good server if I was given more than we talent.
Aminatou: So I'm glad you found your talent. What has changed the most about your work since then or what you thought that you were capable of doing in your work?
Jenny: Since I was a baby?
Aminatou: Since like your baby writer days when you were like, maybe I'm going to be someone who writes these novels.
Jenny: Gosh, you know, it's almost like when I made that decision to move to New York in a very Felicity fashion, I almost just kept going. I mean, that was the biggest hump for me, was like, I'm going to go to New York, I'm going to get my MFA, I'm going to take out thirty five thousand dollars in loans. And I'm just going to bet on myself that I was twenty-two. And making that decision sort of just changed my whole trajectory. And I don't know, I can get scared about next steps. Like I think I was scared last night. I was as I was like thinking about all the things I have to do. And for the first time there's so many things I'm learning now as I'm doing screenwriting. And it's scary because I think as you get older, in some ways it's harder to fail because it's a nice feeling to fail and it's hard to put yourself out there and be vulnerable. But in a way, that's what is interesting. I think with after To All the Boys came out, the third book and then the movie, I guess I just had a feeling of like I know exactly what my life will look like if I write another book right now. But I was ready to just shake things up a little bit and try something different and maybe fail at something just to keep things interesting.
Aminatou: Where do you think that sense of self assuredness comes from? Like, is it something in your childhood, is it a way that your parents raised you, or do you think you just, like, figured it out?
Jenny: I think that immigrant style honestly, you know, my dad, if he came here with forty bucks, not speaking English, no education. They amaze me when I see my parents just doing like I don't we don't give enough credit to all those people who move somewhere else and they just completely start over. And they don't know how to do anything and then they kind of don't know how to do things in a way for their whole life. I mean, like even now, like I'm helping my parents with financial stuff like their paperwork or this or that. And kind of always, I think as an immigrant where the language is not your language, you're always in some ways like humbled because it's just like not your culture. You're having to ask for help all the time, but then you just keep going. And that might be the thing that I've learned is I guess being afraid, but then not letting that hold you back from just trying
Aminatou: Thank you for preaching to me, because I need to hear that today. But the fear is always going to be there. Right? So it's like if the fear is the thing that paralyzes you, then I guess you're never going to do anything.
Jenny: And it can. I mean, again, like last night I was kind of listing in my head all the things that I'm worried about. And by the way, that's something that I've done since I was really little. Like I can fall asleep unless I worried about, like, three things and then I could fall asleep or just imagine, like, a little girl with, like, a little furrow in her brow with her sheets up to her chin, like trembling with worry. And I don't know, I think it's maybe somewhat self soothing. This is kind of lifted out. Name the things that you're scared about and then just keep pressing on because like we want. Because we don’t really have a choice like I'm already in it.
Aminatou: Oh, my God, OK, before I let you go, what is your hope for the rest of the pandemic for for yourself and for the rest of the world?
Jenny: My hope for the rest of the pandemic is, gosh that people can find some relief. I'm hoping that the stimulus checks will go out, that the vaccine rollout will keep happening, that people can just have hope, I guess. It's been so interminably long and I really just want to head into the Roaring Twenties and put on some heels and some red lipstick and dance, and like drink champagne, like that's what I want to do. And I'm hoping that we can just keep going until we can get there. It seems like there's ups and downs with all of this. Sometimes it feels really easy and sometimes it's like a really bleak. So I guess it just enough to keep people going, keep the restaurant going, keep people's jobs going for as long as it takes
Aminatou: Ah as long as it takes. I hope that we are not in the house for much longer, but if we have to be, I really hope that everyone is well taken care of and I hope that you and I can go back to our golfing lessons. That's my hope for the rest of the pandemic.
Jenny: You're so much better than me that I don't know. Like I'm like should I quit. Like I'm not.
Aminatou: You can't quit golf. First of all, I'm not better than you. I've had to fend for myself because our instructor likes you more
Jenny: He doesn’t, I know he spends more time with me because I am worse. And then he looks over at you and he's like, good, good, good.
Aminatou: So Joe, Kamala, if you're listening to this, please fix the pandemic, so we can go back, please. I love you very much, Jenny Han, I am proud of you. The third To All the Boys movie is out on February 12th on Netflix and it's going to be really fun and I can't wait to watch it.
[Interview ends]
Ann: Yeah, a true icon of our time Jenny Han.
Aminatou: I know I keep telling her that she's the Asian Shonda Rhimes. I think it's like all you're doing is like dropping a TV show after TV show and movie after movie. And I am here for The Reign of Jenny. I'm very, very, very, very excited to watch the last installment of To All the Boys. It'll be sad to say goodbye to it. But also I like love when Netflix brings a family together
Ann: It's also there for forever watching. Like that's the thing. It's like it's not ever really concluded, you know.
Aminatou: True story. I certainly will be watching you many times and I will see you on the Internets, I guess.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.