Jangling Keys of Friendship

1/29/21 - Is it childish to call people Best Friends? Who holds the various keys to our hearts and identities? And what dreams of the past and future are getting us through the pandemic? Aminatou discusses travel, religion, finding ourselves and how we use coded language to find our people with Jedidiah Jenkins. His new book Like Streams to the Ocean is out Feb 2. 

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Executive Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll

LINKS

Like Streams to the Ocean by Jedidiah Jenkins

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TRANSCRIPT: JANGLING KEYS OF FRIENDSHIP

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.

Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman! I heard you've been traveling around the world, what's going on?

Ann: Whew. It's been a whirlwind, you know? Just got off a multi-stop international flight. I'm just taking a moment to chat with you before I go to a huge party with my friends and so many strangers all in one room. Then this weekend I'm going to fly to see my grandma and hug her. The usual. [Laughter]

Aminatou: Ann is joking for anyone who is horrified right now. This is obviously a sick fantasy that none of us can partake in.

Ann: Hey, you say sick fantasy. I say rich interior life okay?

Aminatou: [Laughs]

[Theme Song]

(1:15)

Aminatou: This is reminding me, you know, of the people who are definitely traveling and partying but are painstakingly making you aware that they believe that they're being safe right now. "But we got tested" or "We're so safe." I'm like mm-hmm. This is like taking a pregnancy test before you have raw sex with someone then telling me that you are still not pregnant. Have fun with that.

Ann: Yeah. There is no cheek swab for morality. That is what's happening here. [Laughter]

Aminatou: Yeah. I'm like if one more person tells me they're in Mexico being safe my eyes have already rolled into space and back multiple times. Don't have time for this.

Ann: Mm-hmm.

Aminatou: Anyway, speaking of trips to Mexico.

Ann: Great transition. Great transition.

Aminatou: Great transish. It's almost like we've been doing this show for seven years. I called my friend Jedidiah Jenkins who is a travel writer, an entrepreneur. He is the officer of Like Streams to the Ocean which is out in February 2021. He was previously the author of the bestselling To Shake the Sleeping Self. You might've read it. He served as the executive editor of Wilderness Magazine. And Jed is just like a good person. He is also, you know, for me as a vacation buddy. It's like someone that I met when I was on a trip to Mexico and it's been really fun getting to know each other since then.

Ann: Wait, so maybe you'll get into this but you truly just . . . you had one of those rom-com experiences where you were like at the next table or poolside at the hotel and you just made a real and true friend?

Aminatou: Truly, so I went on this trip to Mexico with two other friends and then we showed up at this really beautiful resort and on the first night we went to this party on the beach and we made friends there and Jed was one of those friends. Then he became a rest of the trip resort friend. It was really fun.

Ann: That is a true, beautiful fantasy of the before times. I love to hear this.

Aminatou: I know. It's like sometimes I remember that and I'm like I used to leave the house? I used to leave this block? [Laughs] That seems not real. But anyway I'm excited to talk to Jed about his new book, about being a serial entrepreneur, and all the fun stuff that he's up to.

Ann: I can't wait to listen.

[Interview Starts]

(3:40)

Aminatou: Hi!

Jedidiah: Hello, hello.

Aminatou: Thanks for coming on Call Your Girlfriend!

Jedidiah: It's been a dream ever since I met you by a pool. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Do you want to tell the story of how we met? Because it really feels like a fever dream from another era, especially now that we cannot leave the house.

Jedidiah: Well so I was in Mexico in Todos Santos right?

Aminatou: Yes, remember passports?

Jedidiah: Oh my god, remember just seeing a place that isn't my street? So we were at this gorgeous hotel called Hotel San Cristobal. I was there with my friend Alex who's a chef and my friend Connie who is an actress, Connie Britton with the gorgeous red hair and the great talent. So we're at the pool constantly and I see across the pool these three gorgeous women who are just chic. It's the robes, it's the hats, it's the glasses, it's the books. And they're very much -- I knew they were my vibe because they were holding books but talking. So they weren't reading.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Jedidiah: They were holding the book for the vibe and just talking nonstop and they had their cocktail. I never saw a word be read but it was just like the energy of holding a book which was very me. And I guess at one point I just got close enough to y'all in the pool. Somehow we started talking, and I don't know, which is very serendipitous and sexy. Do you remember?

Aminatou: Well maybe you don't remember this. The night before we had all gone to that beach party.

Jedidiah: Yes! Yes.

Aminatou: We were at the beach and I had showed up to Mexico for my birthday with my friends Cara and Camilla who are very well-read people but it is true that when we are at the pool we just hold books for the energy. And we realized very quickly, this hotel is very small and really lovely and great, but when we got there we realized everyone was there in a cluster. There was definitely another big birthday group and there were maybe like 20 of them. Then there was you and your crew and there were the three of us. We were like wow, we should've rolled in a deeper cloud because we are definitely the only . . . [Laughs] we're the only solo people at this hotel or that's what it felt like at least.

Jedidiah: Yeah, small group.

(5:55)

Aminatou: Small group. So when we met I think there was that dinner at the beach and we all met. I remember thinking you were so fun. You were just like fleeting around and I was like I really want to talk to him. We were, you know, we went to this dinner where everyone knew each other so we ended up being introduced. But it wasn't until we hung out at the pool the next day where I was like oh this is going to be really good.

Jedidiah: [Laughs] Well and this is a very cute and modern moment where you have a real life meeting, just once, and then you get to follow each other on social media in some way and then you get to see another side or learn more about the person. And over time I feel like I really know you and I'm really close to you though we've breathed the same air only for a few hours.

Aminatou: I know, it's so ridiculous.

Jedidiah: And that was over a year ago. That was a year and -- almost two years ago.

Aminatou: It was like two years ago. It's going to be two years this April because it's my birthday again.

Jedidiah: Yeah.

Aminatou: Also I have to tell the really -- because you said who was there -- I have to tell the really embarrassing story of there was a woman in the pool, one of my earliest . . . like the first day I was at the resort in the pool who left her glasses. She was swimming and her glasses kind of got away from her. So I grabbed them, I gave them to her. She looked really beautiful. She was really nice. And I said a thing which I usually never say. I was like "Oh, you . . ." If someone reminds me of someone famous I never, ever say it because it's so embarrassing, like why would you do that?

Jedidiah: Right, right, right.

Aminatou: And also I truly never remember any famous people's faces. But I was like "You know, you look just like Mrs. Coach." And I said Mrs. Coach. [Laughter] Like you're supposed to remember that? And she just laughed so hard and I was like oh that is Mrs. Coach's laugh.

Jedidiah: Yep, yep, yep.

Aminatou: And we both smiled sheepishly and I was like I'm going to be embarrassed for the rest of my life. So that's one story. And then the other thing I think is so fun and always reminds me of you, forever reminds me of you, is if you remember later on the trip we figured out that when you were on the plane or at the airport you had Airdropped a picture of a goat to random people in the airport.

Jedidiah: Yes.

(8:20)

Aminatou: And one of those people was my friend Cam and we only figured this out later. And I'm only sharing this because I think anyone who just randomly Airdrops cute photos to people is someone I want to know. I was like yes.

Jedidiah: One time I was traveling with a friend or something and I wanted to Airdrop them a podcast, I don't know what it was, and I looked and all of a sudden nine people on the plane popped up because obviously a plane, a bus, a subway, you're really close to strangers but you're not talking. A plane's probably the closest. And I was just like oh my gosh.

And so I just clicked all of them, just beep, beep, beep, beep, and sent funny photos. But then I remember being rejected by all of them the first -- maybe every time, rejected, rejected, and I was so offended. I was like wow, these people are so hateful. And a friend pointed out that they're like "Jed your phone is named Send Nudes Here. No one is going to accept that."

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Jedidiah: And so I was like "Oh you're so right." So I changed the name of my phone to "A Safe Christian iPhone User" and that has changed everything. It's all about branding.

Aminatou: That's so funny. I've definitely received inappropriate Airdrops from inappropriate men in airports so I hate that.

Jedidiah: Eww.

(9:45)

Aminatou: But my thing that I do which is a public service but also 100 percent trolling is when I'm anywhere in public during Black History Month I just airdrop random civil rights information to people.

Jedidiah: Oh my god, that's genius.

Aminatou: So I send all the Black History Month memes or I'm like hi, you should know Fannie Lou Hamer, blah, blah, blah, and my iPhone is called Fannie Lou Hamer's iPhone because she's my civil rights icon.

Jedidiah: Oh my god.

Aminatou: So we were meant to be. We were meant to be.

Jedidiah: I know, I know, I know.

Aminatou: Tell me how quarantine is treating you.

Jedidiah: You know I'm really beginning to hate it on a new level. I think I've gone through the cycles of grief obviously, it's been a year, but I feel . . . I mean I do believe -- I listen to every word Dr. Fauci says and I do believe we're rounding the corner, like it's darkest before the dawn, and I think we'll be able to travel and see our friends in a meaningful way by summer which it's even scary . . . I mean 2020 COVID-19 taught me to hold all my hopes with an open hand, all my plans, because the world can shift under your feet in astronomical ways. And I'm going to be thinking about that for decades because I really think this experience might permanently alter Gen Z. But anyway I really want to get sweaty and dance and be wild. I'm ready but I can wait. I can wait until summer. Listen, I can wait forever if it's going to save lives but I just am tired of . . .

Aminatou: Summer seems optimistic but I think that what I learned in COVID season one when every single day an alert would pop up in my calendar, for example I was going back to that resort in Mexico for my birthday or . . . so every single day I had to cancel something in the future for probably . . . for probably the first five weeks, a planet ticket or a thing or a concert, like something would pop up and it's like oh yeah I can't go to that anymore. And I think it definitely defeated my spirit but I think also I have really embraced a life of I have no expectations. If I can hug my friends in the summer I will cry and I will tackle them to the ground and if I cannot I think I am really steeling myself for that. And so I'm hoping that maybe by fall we'll have a semblance of life but what do I know?

Jedidiah: Right.

(12:25)

Aminatou: You said earlier that you think the pandemic is going to alter Gen Z. I think it's going to alter elderly millennials like us too but what do you mean by that?

Jedidiah: I think it's going to alter us to. So you think about how they say -- I mean World War II altered the greatest generation. The great depression altered our grandparents and the greater generation, blah, blah, blah. These big events shape a cultural mindset and I think if you are in high school or middle school or if you're young and school is canceled for a year, a year-and-a-half, no trips, no vacation, you can't play football anymore, you can't play soccer, you can't go to play practice, like what that's doing to the concept of life is orderly and things work out for me or life has a schedule and I'm on the assembly line of life then I'm going to go to college then I'm going to get a job then I'm going to get married.

To have that deeply shift and to see your parents have to pivot in a way, I think it's going to do something to their psyche and I think it's going to make them . . . I think it's going to make some of them more risk-averse and more prone to saving money and things like our grandparents' generation did that millennials famously don't do. But I don't know.

(13:50)

Aminatou: We can't because we inherited ad different kind of fear. It's like all we've known is -- and your book made me think about this honestly -- like how you're just born, you don't ask for it, and now you're here and you just have to deal with whatever childhood the universe has given you. You're just like okay . . .

Jedidiah: You don't choose your parents. You don't choose the house you grew up in.

Aminatou: Like nothing, like what a weird fluke. You don't choose anything then it's like ugh, no, these are the cards I've been dealt. I've got to . . . this is what I have to do. And by and large we all survive our childhoods and we all survive where we're from. Some people have charmed ones, other people do not, but most people are somewhere in the middle anyway.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: And it's easy to look back and feel really lacking in a lot, like oh, I didn't have the perfect family or we didn't have money or we didn't have this or . . . my life was not perfect in this way. And it's a little harder to be a grownup who takes responsibility for your own life no matter what it . . . you know? And just says like okay, here's the weird soup that the universe gave me but it doesn't mean that there are not ways in which I got lucky and there are not ways in which I'm privileged and there are not ways in which I have access. I think that part of surviving your childhood is starting to be honest about how you are living life today, you know, and what makes your life possible. That is my deepest-held belief about anyone who has a public platform is that if you are choosing to be in the arena of the public whether it's doing a podcast, it's having a large Instagram following, it's writing books, whatever it is that you do, like especially if you write and talk about yourself you have to be honest about everything that makes your life possible. And I don't say that in the sense that you have to overshare.

Jedidiah: Right.

(15:45)

Aminatou: But it's like when I think about your first book and when I think about this book too I think that that is what you're doing of saying okay, for the person who used to be me or for that confused 22-year-old gay boy from Tennessee here is one account of how someone has tried to figure that out.

Jedidiah: Well, ugh, I just love your mind. It flows into my mind so effortlessly and beautifully. I think the road map -- this is why . . . I mean humans learn best through stories. Our brains work like that. We've been sitting around fires telling stories for millions of years and that's why parables and metaphors land in the mind in a way that is sticky. And so telling your life story, how you did this, how you grew up, what made you decide things and be the way that you are, people hear that and the ultimate feeling is me too. Like oh my gosh, that's how I grew up or that's my family. Or wow, I didn't grow up like that. I never had a mom tell me she loved me or my dad never hit me. I guess I've never thought about the fact that he didn't hit me. That's pretty cool. Like it's both through the me too and the wow, that's different that is so instructive in life. And I totally agree, the understanding of where people came from . . .

Because not only does it instruct, it also removes the fantasy mythology around someone's life being so much better than yours and the toxicity of comparison, of why am I not like that? And then when you really see the component parts of someone's life it makes a lot more sense when you're not potentially like that.

Aminatou: Ugh, I love the way that you put that because I am so . . . I think because of social media and all of the ways that it . . . it just builds to make you feel lacking. It's like hi, look at someone else's perfect life and why do you not have that? It's a model that I reject so much. I think so much about how do we live life in communities so we're not permanently reinforcing really awful envy towards each other? And I think that being honest about the things that make your life good or the things that make your life hard is one way to do that.

(18:15)

Like I'm curious, when you sat down to write Like Streams to the Ocean in some ways it's definitely in conversation with your first book and in other ways it takes some of these themes a lot further, you know? You write a lot about ego and you write a lot about death and about friendship and about family and feeling at home. I'm wondering what state of mind you were in and really what you were trying to accomplish.

Jedidiah: Ugh, yeah. So To Shake the Sleeping Self was my first book. Like Streams to the Ocean is the second one and the title really comes from a passage that I wrote trying to use a metaphor for the experience of being a child and growing into an adult and ultimately returning to the cosmic whatever when you're done with this life. And it grew out of my first book in the sense where my first book was a travel memoir about riding my bicycle across Latin America for a year and a half and also confronting my evangelical upbringing and its antagonism towards my sexuality.

And in there I had a lot of philosophical conversations about religion and God and family and this and that and I thought I was an adventure travel writer. I thought that's what I was, that I wrote about Mexico City and Machu Picchu and Patagonia. But I found over the course of having a readership respond to my first book and writing online a lot the things that people actually responded to were my thoughts around these larger concepts of being a human. Of like a curiosity of atomizing and breaking down the experience of living as a human in a body with a family and falling in love and fearing death and trying to find a career that feels meaningful and productive. It was when I'd talk about things like that that people really responded and sent me long letters and emails about how it impacted them.

(20:30)

And I noticed that's what I really enjoy doing is writing about the thoughts in my head around these concepts. And so what I did when my publisher came back asking for another book, I said let me look at all my writing over the past five years and see if any themes trickle to the top. Like if I scoop it all up see what I'm doing. And I just started collecting all these writings and finding that they fit in these buckets, these subjects of life. I wrote a lot about friendship. Oh, this is interesting. I'll put these in a folder. I wrote a lot about love. I wrote a lot about my family. I wrote a lot about career and work. And so I was just scooping them into these buckets and I realized I had accidentally build a skeleton of these key subjects of a thoughtful life in my opinion.

And so I presented that to my publisher. I was like let me write some essays based on this skeleton that seems to be resonating with readers and is clearly what my mind wants to write about. It's what I find interesting. And my publisher loved the idea so that was the birth of this book. Well that's one aspect of the birth.

The other aspect is one of the most common messages I get or emails is people asking me "Where do you find people to have conversations like this with? Where do you find friends that are going to ask you about what it means to be a human and dissect purpose and religion and philosophy and the universe?" And I have no idea. Maybe like calls out to like. Maybe I'm super social. Maybe I'm older and have figured out where these people live.

(22:25)

I basically had a lot of people telling me that I online was their friend like that. I was the one that helped them have these conversations with themselves. And so I basically wanted to make a book that is that fireside companion that invites you into deeper conversation with yourself. Maybe you don't have that with your wife, husband, partner, friends. Maybe you wish you did and I was like well I can be that, at least in the magical way that a book is. I mean it's cliché but some of my best friends are dead authors. I love hanging out with them.

Aminatou: I love that you are both a very indoor person but also very social. You're truly, truly an enigma to me. I was like hmm, he could spend a lot of time by himself but also a perfect addition to any social scene.

Jedidiah: [Laughs] Oh my god, thank you. I am very extroverted but I've discovered being a writer now for -- a full-time writer now for I guess nine years? No, seven years, that I really do have a lifestyle because I am alone all day when I'm writing. I go sit at coffee shops non-pandemic and I sit in public all day but I'm not talking. The only time I talk is when I order food or a coffee. So I'm silent with my books, with my writing, with my Twitter and whatever just consuming information quietly by myself. And then by midafternoon I'll go work out and then I'm ready to see people and socialize every day. I mean I am doing something every night.

(24:18)

And I think that has something to do with the fact that I don't socialize with people that I don't choose. You know, a lot of people have coworkers and maybe they're introverted and maybe being around people, especially people not that are their best friends but coworkers, is tiring. They're in meetings. They're on Zoom. They're being social in a way that isn't voluntary whereas my social life is completely voluntary. So basically my gas tank is very full.

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(26:55)

Aminatou: Well I want to talk to you about friendship because you are someone that we've been quoting a lot on the Big Friendship book tour actually and I imagine we will quote a lot again when we get back on the road for the paperback. The road -- the digital road. No one is leaving their home. Please don't cancel us, we are fully at home. No one is going anywhere.

Jedidiah: [Laughs]

Aminatou: You know, it was this thing that you posted about how different friends hold different parts of your life and you use this really good jangling keys metaphor, and I'm wondering if you can talk about it more here.

Jedidiah: Well yeah, that was . . . that made it into Like Streams because I wanted to basically put that on paper in the physical world so people could have it. It's just something I've been thinking about kind of a lot because as a recovering Christian gay man and where intimacy was denied me for a long time, physical, romantic intimacy, friendship meant everything to me because it was my only official sanctioned relationship of any kind.

(28:05)

And so I just was obsessed with my friends, and still am, and held them to such an intimate space in my life that I always had a best friend and the title really meant a lot to me. As I would move through seasons of life or move that would change and there was like an energetic . . . a negative energetic competition between people and myself and when those titles would shift and change and I would have to qualify this is my college best friend or this is my San Diego best friend. I noticed myself qualifying these things which piqued my interest in my mind to say what am I talking about?

The first person to ever say "I don't really say that anymore" to me was Dax Shepard. He now famously hosts a podcast and he's an actor but he's married to a long-time friend of mine Kristen Bell. And we were talking about this years ago, probably 15 years ago, and he said -- I probably asked him doe-eyed "Who's your best friend?" And he's like "The concept of a best friend is childish."

Aminatou: [Laughs] Wow Dax with the truth.

Jedidiah: Yeah and I just -- I had never heard someone say that. It just stuck in my mind like a dart and he didn't really say much more than that. He was just like that's something kids say. And it just kind of sent me down this train of thought of why do I have to have a best friend? Because when I think about it friends serve different roles in my life and sometimes I . . . I mean I have friends that are married and they light up when they hang out with me in a way they don't around their beloved spouse. Does that diminish their relationship with their spouse? Or have we expected too much of certain relationships in a way that is unhealthy and just untrue? And that train of thought led me down this idea that different friends hold different keys to the doors of your identity and your personhood. And that's okay and that's beautiful and you don't have to lock someone into a label but there is value in understanding and speaking that some of your friends hold a lot of keys and they're really close. And if you're ever in the hospital someone needs to know to call them because they've got the most keys. They need to be here.

(30:45)

Aminatou: I love that because, you know, I'm like you. The oh, best friend is childish is something that I realized when I was not a child. [Laughs] You know?

Jedidiah: Yeah.

Aminatou: I'm like oh! Here's what's going on here. It's not good to apply too much pressure to any of your human relationships and also it's actually really denying yourself the truth that so many different people can unlock, you know, like who you are. And also I'm like it's nice to share. It is nice to share of ourselves. So I also love that you connected it so much to evangelical Christianity because that's another thing that we have in common in a different way. I had a very brief pitstop but it was a memorable pitstop.

Jedidiah: [Laughs]

Aminatou: And for you it was definitely a -- it was a lifestyle. But it's something that I find myself really reluctant to talk about sometimes and also something that I am constantly thinking of dealing with everything that was not great about that period of my life. You know, so thinking about trying to fund raise to go on mission trips or really pushing this evangelical lifestyle as something that people should consider I feel a sense of complicity and I also feel . . . you know, I'm like it's complicated. I'm not saying I was some sort of Christian drug dealer, very far from it.

Jedidiah: [Laughs]

(32:20)

Aminatou: But I do. I wrestle a lot with the fact that I was like hmm, this is not something that I feel good about and it's something I participated in at whatever level. And I wonder if that's something that you wrestle with too or is it just like okay, I'm letting this roll off my back and some parts of Christianity are good, some parts are bad, and we can all move on?

Jedidiah: Well I definitely think some parts of Christianity are good and some parts are very bad. I think like I am . . . I look back at that season of my life and it feels like something that happened to me more than complicity even though I was very involved and certainly my Christianity happened to others. And that's the interesting complexity of humans doing things and being part of a larger infrastructure and just being part of a society. It's both the chicken and the egg. You are the result of an environment and you are contributing to that environment.

And so I think about it and talk about it all the time because it was so formative to me. It's funny you said the term lifestyle because it was a lifestyle that really harmed me and the whole time that lifestyle was calling being gay a lifestyle that harmed. They were like the gay lifestyle is destructive and will give you AIDS and kill you and probably send you to hell. Meanwhile I didn't even register that evangelical Christianity and certainty-based dogma and evangelicalism meaning the urgency to spread a belief system to people who are not asking for it is a deadly, dangerous, horrible lifestyle that I was living.

(34:20)

And luckily I had the wherewithal and ultimately a community of new friends that made me feel safe enough to see that I was in a massive multi-billion member cult and that I had to escape. [Laughs] And that's . . .

Aminatou: Where's that documentary?

Jedidiah: Well what do they say? Cult plus time equals religion.

Aminatou: 100 percent. 100 percent. Yeah and I'm like it's not . . . there is literally the same level of volleyball playing in NXIVM as there is in evangelical Christianity so I'm like this is definitely . . . it's definitely a cult. When grown adults are playing volleyball any night of the week I'm like you're in a cult. You should know that.

Jedidiah: Well the thing is human beings are religious apes. We evolved to see, to be able to believe these complex myths, to explain how the world works because our little brains cannot understand meteorology and biology and physics on their own. So we had to come up with stories to make this make sense.

So being raised very religious and still a spiritually-interested person the QAnon conversation fascinates me because these people are believing in a cabal of celebrities and Democrats and a sex ring cannibalistic-like overlord culter.

Aminatou: It's wild.

(36:00)

Jedidiah: It's so wild. But it's wild because it's fresh meaning they think it's happening now. Like I believed, and millions of people believe, that a man rose from the dead and when you drink wine and eat bread it transubstantiates into actual blood and flesh and that is how the original sin of the Garden of Eden where a snake smoke to a woman, everyone's like dope, yeah, yeah. That sounds great. Let's believe that.

Aminatou: Let's live according to that.

Jedidiah: Right. And if that was an idea that came out right now people would be like you need to lie down, are you okay? And yet I'm not -- listen, I was raised Christian and I still call myself a mystic Christian because the concepts and the life of Jesus who I do believe is a historical, real person, there is a lot, an incredible amount of religion and truth in there and I think specifically the individualistic American blend of Christianity is dangerous. But I believe there's so much beauty in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Because the thing is what's interesting about that is I add that caveat because when you are in evangelical Christianity there is a memetic immune system that is sold to Christians from the pulpit. If people use certain lingo and challenge your belief basically they build up a white blood immune system to someone challenging your beliefs. They say you're deceived. They say they're relativistic. They say they're selfish and they use these Bible verses basically to remove critical thinking from the Christian's mind. And I was like that. I would meet people that I really liked and I'd be listening to them to use cues so I could trust their words. I would be waiting for them to thank God or to talk about God and not say the universe. If they said the universe I knew they were deceived by the hippies and the liberals.

(38:20)

These are almost like signals, hand signals, that I was looking for to see if somebody "loved God" or didn't then I could go deeper in my friendship with them. Which is a type of religion contagion I think is so sad and dangerous. You'll notice in Like Streams and To Shake the Sleeping Self that I'm intentional with my language to some degree because I want to invite that curious kid or young person or adult who is a person of faith, who is raised in that culture, I want to invite them into a deeper conversation and not trigger their immediate abandonment of the idea.

Aminatou: I hadn't considered that. It's funny also that you say that you -- when you were deep in it you would listen for cues to know if the person was Christian or not because I definitely do that now for the opposite reason. [Laughs]

Jedidiah: Right, same.

Aminatou: Yeah, you hear it. They're just like "Oh yeah, we're doing life, like X," or even the words intentional or accountability, any time I can figure out if someone has been in a small group at a church I was like I've got you now.

Jedidiah: Yeah, yeah.

Aminatou: There are . . .

Jedidiah: And they use words like grace or blessing, I'm so blessed. I'm like mm-hmm.

Aminatou: You're so blessed. Yeah, there are just a lot of signals, like verbal signals that people give you, but I find it all very fascinating. And also . . .

Jedidiah: There's so much information in verbal signals. I find one of the best things to follow on Twitter is the Pew Research Center. They do these polls, these massive multi-thousand person polls of like American idea and sentiment. And I remember they released this poll, I believe it was Pew, it was something like ten percent of Latin people have ever heard of the term Latinx and three percent use it. And I was like in my circles everyone says Latinx and I was like . . .

Aminatou: Not Latincks? That's not how your circle says it?

(40:35)

Jedidiah: No they say Latinx.

Aminatou: I'm just kidding. [Laughter] That's so funny that you bring that up because I was looking into research about that also because I was like you know, I don't like when I start using a term and don't know where it's from. You're so right about Latinx and when I would poll my friends who were, you know, who that label would fit for a lot of them were not using it or do not like it.

Jedidiah: Right. So that's a perfect example of that term is a signaling term to a certain echelon of people and a certain corner of the progressive conversation which is -- they're signaling to each other because clearly they're not asking the Latinx/Latin community what they think; they're talking to each other. And that's fine but it was just an interesting realization. You know, when I'm back in Tennessee, when I'm home in Tennessee or when I'm in California there's so much information. If someone says BIPOC or someone says the mainstream media, like my mom will say "The mainstream media." I immediately know everything -- not everything but I know so much about how she sees the world if she's lamenting the mainstream media.

Aminatou: [Laughs] You're like CNN? Oh man, I'm also laughing that you said BIPOC because I will confess on this podcast that the first couple times I saw it I thought it meant bisexual person of color and I was like what a specific identity. But you know what? I'm here, I support it. Whatever the people want. You tell me what to call you. And then I was in a meeting and someone was talking about BIPOC and they referred to me. I was like I am not a bisexual person of color! I'm Aminatou Sow, I'm black. [Laughter] And it was very instructive. But you're right about the signals and it really does go both ways, the who are you talking to and what are you trying to say? What are you trying to say to your people? And also what dog whistle are you using right?

Jedidiah: Yeah.

(42:45)

Aminatou: We do that in so many ways even in informal conversation or the means that you share or the jokes that you share. And so it's something that I am trying to consider more and more as I communicate with people.

Jedidiah: Yeah and I'm not even giving a value judgment to it. I'm just saying we all do it. I remember when I was deep in the Christian lifestyle there was a season where I would strategically say shit or ass because there's a kind of Christian that sometimes cusses that signals you're a cool Christian.

Aminatou: 100 percent.

Jedidiah: And it's so funny now looking back on it, I was definitely doing that on purpose and trying to find the other cool Christians who might have a cigarette with me. [Laughs] It's just funny.

Aminatou: It's like you could also always tell them by their shoe game. If their shoes were a lot of money -- that was my thing. Not like a mainstream fashion but it's like okay, if this person is spending an ungodly amount of money on their sneakers I know that they're trying to tell me that they're cool. But, you know, the mainstream media has definitely covered pastors with expensive sneakers and how that's going so good luck to everyone there. [Laughs]

Jedidiah: Oh my gosh, that world is wild.

(44:00)

Aminatou: That world is so wild but I want someone to make a TV show of it that . . . you know, I'm like some really HBO production tell me what it's like in these mega churches now because it is definitely -- it's an environment that has changed a lot since I've been there but the fashion alone is worth investigating. Okay, no more of the pastors or it's going to drive me nuts.

Jedidiah: Yes, yes, yes.

Aminatou: But before we leave each other can you tell me something that has . . . I know the pandemic is bad and quarantine is not fun but we are also #blessed to have jobs and be able to live our lives.

Jedidiah: Cheers.

Aminatou: I'm just wondering if there's anything that has surprised you about this time in our life but in a positive way.

Jedidiah: I think there's a lot actually. I think I am such a traveler, goer, say yeser. I'm constantly on the go. It's not so much that I was consciously running from my own life; it was that I just like to say yes. I have a lot of friends who their jobs and their life take them all over the world and they're like "Jed come with me," and I'm like a single gay man so I'm like great, fun arm candy for trips like that. So I just say yes a lot.

So I've never really been in my house for four seasons to watch the seasons change. Well in L.A. we have two seasons but still. I've just become I love my space. I have plants all over my room now. I'm a plant gay. I'm watering them, watching them grow. I've planted maybe a thousand wildflower seeds in my backyard and every morning I make my coffee and I go outside and I look to see if they've grown and they have. Right now they're maybe two centimeters tall, they're popping out of the soil, and it makes me so happy. I've just discovered that I enjoy the four walls of this house and this little backyard and noticing the molecular level changes of things which I've never seen before. And I'm lucky enough being a writer that a writer's fantasy is being like an old writer on a porch with a pipe on their -- like in their cabin sitting by the fire on a porch working on their 20th book. Unlike a soccer player or something my ideal future is always in the future until I'm an old, bearded man and I got to kind of experience this year where I'm like an old fart stuck in a house piddling around caring about flowers and yelling at the squirrels for eating my birdseed which is just . . . and I realize I love it. So I'm like this is encouraging.

(47:00)

Aminatou: Ugh, I love that image a lot. I miss you a lot my friend. Like Streams to the Ocean is out now. It's available wherever you buy books. Jed I miss you. I hope we get to go to Mexico again.

Jedidiah: Me too.

Aminatou: Text me a picture of your wildflowers. I miss you.

Jedidiah: Oh my gosh I miss you too and please continue to just curate and be the gatekeeper of TikTok that I've always wanted and always needed because you bring me so much joy.

Aminatou: I've got you. I've got you.

[Interview Ends]

Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.

Ann: I'll see you on the Internet but not in Mexico.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Maybe I'll see you in Mexico one day.

Ann: Dare to dream.

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