A Taxonomy of Scammers

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6/8/18 - "The scam economy is entering its baroque phase." From Ponzi schemes to fake royals to imposters in the tech and wellness space, our guide to scammers both amusing and insidious.

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Ad sales: Midroll

LINKS

Fake royals: Anna Delvey, fake-German-heiress scammer; the guy who impersonated a Saudi royal; fake British royal-adjacent Thomas J Mace Archer Mills Esq.

Political grifters: Trump cabinet scammers: Pruitt (and his wife), Carson, Zinke; Ivanka; all Trumps, really; Jill Stein, recount scammer

Messy bitches who live for drama: Joanne the Scammer; the ex-Vogue staffer

Self-declared saints: Pope Francis (and all popes, really); Justin Trudeau; John McCain

“Wellness” icons: Gwyneth Paltrow; Amanda Chantal Bacon; related scammer: Alex Jones

Pyramid schemers: Bernie Madoff; the Vegan Bernie Madoff; multi-level marketing

Silicon Valley tech-scammer: Elizabeth Holmes; so many dude “serial founders”

Honorable mentions: The hipster grifter (and she’s back!); Malachi Love Robinson, the fake teen holistic doctor

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TRANSCRIPT: A Taxonomy of Scammers

[Ads]

(0:52)

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On today's agenda a taxonomy of scammers, fake royals, political grifters, messy bitches who live for drama, self-declared saints, wellness icons, pyramid schemers, and Silicon Valley tech scammers.

[Theme Song]

(1:40)

Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman. How's it going?

Ann: Um, so good. I'm so excited about today's episode.

Aminatou: I am super excited about today's episode also. So let's get to it.

Ann: I have to tell you that I want to take a little bit of a pause to just acknowledge the zeitgeist predating work that we have done on this podcast because this week the New York Times has an editorial about grift in the Trump administration. The New York Times editorial board has an op-ed this week. The headline is Grifters Gonna Grift.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: And I'm just like wow! You remember like in 2015 during the election and in 2016 when we even had an episode called American Grifters? I'm like welcome. Welcome New York Times.

Aminatou: It's nuts. There was a great New York Times Magazine story earlier, I think it was like last year around the Fyre Fest. The line I will never forget, it was like "Scamming has entered its baroque phase." And this is some beautiful shit going on here. It is artistically like beautiful what is happening.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: Very artful, like height of grift.

Ann: Right. That piece was by Carina Chocano who is great and then we've also had Maria Konnikova on the podcast who wrote this whole book called The Confidence Game where she basically points out in her book that scam and drift tend to rise at moments of great social change and upheaval. Which part of me is like isn't that every moment in time?

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: But also it does seem like there is a preponderance of scamming happening right now. So we're going to endeavor to categorize many of the recent scams/ongoing scams and like dissect the different types of grift. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Oh my god. We've done a version of this on our live shows and so to bring it out today would be great.

(3:50)

Ann: It is true. We've been doing the scam work in a recurring way and this is like we're going to pull it all into one episode. One scamstravaganza. [Laughs] Okay, category is -- what's the first one?

Aminatou: [Laughs] What is fake royals?

Ann: Oh my god. Quote Lorde we'll never be royals for sure.

Aminatou: Oh my god, we'll never be royals!

Ann: Oh my god. The karaoke version.

Aminatou: I am not allowed to sing on this podcast ever again.

Ann: Okay, so we have to start with this one because most recent scam-related article to go viral is the New York Magazine breakdown of Anna -- how do you say her last name? [Laughs]

Aminatou: [Laughs] You know, there has been talk that it is Del-vay or Del-vi but I'm sure that if she is as she claims, you know, like a German heiress I would go the French route. Except what the fuck kind of fake German name is Del-vi or Del-vay? What is wrong with people?

Ann: Okay, wait, do you want to headline? Do you want to headline what Anna Delvey got up to?

Aminatou: Oh my god, Anna Del-Scam.

Ann: Lana Delvey.

Aminatou: Anna Del-Scamburg.

Ann: The Baroness van Scamburg.

Aminatou: Yeah, the Baroness van Scamburg. She is kind of iconic in the New York grift scene in the sense that, you know, it was almost a victimless crime. So she like paraded around town as an ultra-rich person and hung around ultra-rich people and did ultra-rich shit. So that included living at fancy hotels, claiming that she was opening some sort of like [0:05:42] and was like, you know, like an arts patron or whatever. But in doing so did some serious financial crime. The thing that I love about her story truly is she just did shit that I didn't know you could do. Like I did not know for example that you could stay at a hotel and not put your credit card down. I didn't know that there was a world in which you could convince a hotel concierge or whatever like "Hey man, I'm so rich I don't need to give you money." Like I thought that was a rule that even when George Clooney goes to a hotel he has to give his credit card. So . . .

Ann: Yeah, he can't promise to wire the money in three weeks after he's run up a bottle service and room service tab for every single day. Yeah.

(6:33)

Aminatou: I just didn't know that was an option. And I think that's the beauty of the Baroness van Scamburg scam is she just exposes the things rich people can get away with. Another thing that she did was borrow money from people and not pay them back, right? If she had borrowed money from me I would be acutely aware of it because I have finite supplies of money. In the New York Magazine story about her . . .

Ann: Wait, you missed all those Venmo requests that I've been sending you for six figures? [Laughs]

Aminatou: Oh my god, Ann, stop it. You know, but with her there was this one story about how she went with some art scene kid to some like [0:07:13] somewhere and he literally says "She borrowed two or three thousand dollars." And I'm like first of all the difference between two and three thousand dollars in my life is highly palpable. Like I know the difference. But also the fact that he just claimed that he forgot, you know, because it was such a small amount of money, I was like wow. Rich people shit. For me that's the equivalent of if somebody borrowed like 10 or 20 dollars, you know? It wouldn't ring any alarm bells for me that they were a scammer. But if you owed me -- first of all the scenario in which you owe me two or three thousand dollars and we're not tethered to each other, I don't know that life. I think that's the beauty of this woman's grift that you're just like oh, rich people? I suspect this is how they live but you didn't know and now you were exposed to it. And then the other thing is she also scammed banks.

Ann: [Laughs]

(8:08)

Aminatou: Like I didn't even know that you could get a loan if they didn't take a blood sample from you and they didn't take your family, you know what I mean? Then she wrote all these bad checks. I didn't know that you could write a bad check to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars and be able to withdraw those from an ATM before the check clears. I'm like Chase doesn't even give me my own money for like a week when I drop a check so what's the deal here?

Ann: It's true. She's making all the things that are arcane and annoying about the banking system work to her advantage. That's one reason why this article was so -- I'm like is there a blueprint in here for how to live?

Aminatou: Part of the reason that we are all so impressed with grifting in general, or at least grifts of the ultra-rich, the reason that we love it is it is some lifestyles of the rich and famous bullshit where you're just like oh. You just didn't know and you didn't have a way of knowing. You're like oh, scammers, they're just like us. [Laughs]

Ann: Oh my god. So the related story last week which was about this guy from Colombia who convinced a bunch of rich people in Miami he was a Saudi royal . . .

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: The details in that article which is in the Washington Post were also incredible. It includes the fact that the door buzzer on his apartment unit said Sultan.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: And the fact that he had purchased diplomatic plates for his Ferrari from eBay. And it's just like . . .

Aminatou: Right. Like another thing I didn't even know you could do, right? Like it has never occurred to me to go to eBay and go like diplomatic plates.

(9:54)

Ann: Totally. So yeah, blah, blah, blah, defrauding investors, it's fine. But also some of his lies that are leading up to the lie that he was a Saudi royal are pretty amazing including him telling his classmates that his family owned a local resort or that he was "the son of actor Dom DeLuise."

Aminatou: [Laughs] In this specific category at least do you think that a lot of these people -- like this is a category that a lot of us could fall into in the sense that we've all had a fantasy life, you know?

Ann: Yes.

Aminatou: And some of these people just take it too far. It's like I'm happy to just fantasize. I'm not actually willing to do the work. It just seems like a lot of work.

Ann: Okay. But if you were going to create a fake royal scam persona where would you be from? What would your story be?

Aminatou: You've got to go somewhere very small. Andora or like . . . you know, the thing is I'm blessed. I'm from West Africa and most West Africans just all lie about being some sort of West African loyalty anyway. [Laughs] So, you know, and I'm not going to lie. My great grandma was a princess before colonialism so I am also royalty. You know, West Africans are notorious for this. They're always like "I'm royalty, whatever." And I'm like well 1) colonialism makes that moot but also what the fuck is your kingdom? I don't know. I think in order for this to be successful you need to look the part. The Saudi guy, I kind of commend him because I was like you're doing good. But I'm also like I would be afraid to lie about being Saudi royalty. That's too . . . I feel like it's too fraught. I would go some very tiny obscure company or I like -- I don't know. But also my fantasy is not to be a princess so this would not work for me.

(11:45)

Ann: Okay, but this fake Saudi prince "purchased the entire first class cabin so he could be alone on a flight." Like that is . . .

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: I'm sorry but if you had scam kind of money that is 100% something you would do with your money.

Aminatou: No Ann, if I had scam money I would have a private plane! If somebody has all of the money to purchase first class in an airplane it's like why don't they have access to their own plane? Those are the alarm bells that should be going off for you.

Ann: In summary, fake royals category. Tagline "My money is all tied up in investments right now." Hallmarks of a fake royal include confusing backstory, several aliases, cash payments, all the best parties, and I would add maybe some eBay license plates. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Oh my god.

Ann: And the natural habitat is the lobby of a five-star hotel.

Aminatou: Okay, our next category is the political grifters which now that we have like full-on fraud going on in our government name a cabinet secretary and we'll tell you their grift.

Ann: Yeah. Name a cabinet secretary and we'll tell you that they spent five figures on a common household item.

Aminatou: Yeah! The thing here with these people is the only thing that gives me a little bit of solace, because like I said I'm like the problem when these people steal is that we're paying for it.

Ann: Yes.

Aminatou: So there's nothing funny about it. You know what I mean? I'm just like that's my money Scott Pruitt. Stop it. You played yourself. Who the fuck goes into government to make money? No! This seems like a terrible idea.

Ann: I mean . . .

Aminatou: This is a terrible, terrible idea.

Ann: Yeah, it's a terrible idea until you get away from it. You basically just described the beginning of any heist money where someone is like this is a terrible idea. How will we pull this off? No one has ever succeeded in doing whatever.

Aminatou: I know, but in heists at least you're doing sexy things. In this heist you have to be like cabinet secretary of bullshit, you know?

(13:52)

Ann: But you don't think it's sexy to these people to boost cash from the American people? Like it is very sexy for them.

Aminatou: No, I think that Scott Pruitt hates his job. I think Steve Mnuchin hates his job. Ben Carson wants to go back to being asleep. They cannot believe how much work they have to do.

Ann: Oh my god, I could not disagree more. Steve Mnuchin is still chilling and producing bad movies and doing whatever he did before he was appointed. He's not even doing the job that he . . .

Aminatou: Yeah. I guess, okay, I guess here is what they hate about it is for whether they are useless or not they're just like sweating right now. There's no . . . you know, I feel like in the heist movie the tension is very sexy and cool and on the edge and these people are not used to sweating. It's not cool. So let's go through them. Let's start with like Scott Pruitt, Mr. EPA. I did not have it in my bingo card that Scott Pruitt would be like the scammer of the -- you know? I mean they're all grifters in their own way but some of his shit has been flagrant.

Ann: Yeah. I think a lot of this is flagrant but I hear you. So yeah, Scott Pruitt spending how much on pens? $5,000 on pens? Oh sorry.

Aminatou: No it was like . . .

Ann: Spending $1,500 on pens.

Aminatou: $1,500 on pens at a store called like Fancy Pens or the equivalent of it. But also some of the stories are very bizarre. Like the one where he's making all of his -- like everyone who works for him run errands, and one errand was definitely to get like it said a used mattress from a Trump hotel?

Ann: Yes.

Aminatou: I was like that can't be real. Like that's code or something right? Is Mueller listening to this? This is code.

Ann: Oh, completely.

Aminatou: I was like there is money in that mattress. There is drugs in that mattress. This is not real.

Ann: It's like move the mattress. Move the mattress.

Aminatou: So he's like doing that. He had that weirdo story where he's basically bunking up at a lobbyist house and was paying the lobbyist $50 a night. He tried to muscle his wife into being a Chik-fil-a franchise owner and he used his office to do that. [Laughs]

(15:55)

Ann: Side note this article contains the phrase "on his wife's behalf" which I'm like that is a tell. When someone is doing something untoward in government on his wife's behalf I'm like run. Run, lady. You're being conscripted. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I know. Well she is being conscripted because here's what's going on. So in the Pruitt household the reason they're doing all the shady shit is because they are not as wealthy as the other cabinet members. So first of all my man is carrying like an $850,000 mortgage on his house in Tulsa, Oklahoma which I'm like do you live in a mansion? What is going on? So he's doing that. The wife does not work. And then now that he can't shack up with the lobbyists for $50 a night because we've called him out on it they had to rent an apartment near work which you lived in D.C. Those rents are also scam-outrageous. This is what's going on with the Pruitts: they need the money. So that's why he's trying to get his wife a job.

Ann: Oh my god.

Aminatou: And I was like oh my god, there are so many more artful ways to do this. Like he makes I think $189,000 a year so of course he has to scam. He has a mortgage. He has rent. He's got to keep up with the Trumps. It's just a recipe for disaster. And that's what a lot of political grift is truly is that people who are put in this pressure cooker where they have to pretend like they have a lot of power and the only lever they have is stealing from us.

Ann: Wow. That is actually I feel a surprisingly compassionate take on political grift. I am way less -- I am more like . . .

Aminatou: No, I mean I think that it's bad. Like I'm not compassionate about it. I'm just saying it doesn't surprise me that a lot of these people have to steal. Like if your goal in life is to be rich do not go into government work. Even stealing from the government is a lot of work. Don't do it and you will get caught. So it's like that kind of shit. But it's also the thing that happens when all of these people, like Ben Carson is another one, Ryan Zinke. All these people, their defense is always "Oh, we're new to this stuff or whatever." And I'm like what? You're new to ethics? [Laughs]

Ann: I mean fair enough. Fair enough.

(18:12)

Aminatou: And interestingly enough in the Trump administration the very few women that there are like Betsy DeVos, they're not caught in the like trying to fly first class and all of this stuff. Betsy DeVos for as evil as she is, she flies her own plane. That's how evil she is, she has her own plane. She doesn't take a salary, like nothing. So she's just like that's how evil she is. And then Elaine Chao also evil but also surprisingly nothing untoward because she has also worked in government before right?

Ann: I mean I'm going to cite an exception which is Ivanka.

Aminatou: Oh my god. I mean yeah, no, Ivanka is like please.

Ann: Playing the longest game, flying to China to get trademarks and then also being like "I'm here on official business. No big deal." Visual US government business, not like Ivanka working women scam business. I just can't even handle it.

Aminatou: Yeah. I know, but like the Trump thing, right, that is very deeply ironic is we kind of don't know how much money he has. It is under dispute. It's anywhere from like a couple hundred million dollars, which to be clear is a lot of money -- I don't have that kind of money -- to like billions of dollars. But I'm like that spread is fairly wide, you know? And he lives like somebody who has billions. But the truth is I would say that he probably does not have billions but now that he's in government he's actually getting rich because people have to use fraud to do him favors. All of these scummy government people from other places, when they come to D.C., they all stay at the Trump Tower. That benefits him. It's just one big advertisement. So of all of these people he is the only one I feel can get away with it because the scam is active. It is active and it's about advertising. Like Scott Pruitt probably will go down. Ben Carson, my god, I hope he goes down. Yeah, what did Ben Carson do? He bought a dining table for $30,000 then blamed his wife for it. [Laughs]

(20:10)

Ann: Yes. He bought a $31,000 dining room set for his office -- just absorb that one -- and then was basically like "My wife doesn't know how much things should cost."

Aminatou: Okay. Also, Ann, can we discuss all these dudes bringing their wives to the office? Like is this a thing?

Ann: I mean it's . . .

Aminatou: I'm just like these wives, I'm like if they're taking you to the office are the paying you? Like you're doing work, man.

Ann: Look, this is the trickle-down effect of not having the first lady be a paid position. They're expected to support the grift without compensation. [Laughs]

Aminatou: What a double grift. Marriage is a real grift. Woo, what? What?

Ann: Marriage is the truest grift. And I've got one more political -- I mean we have talked at length about Ivanka and Ivanka's dad's grifting but there's also a more recent political grift of a different political bent which is about Jill Stein's recount millions.

Aminatou: Oh my god, listen, the minute she tweeted she needed that money in the aftermath of the election we all knew this was a scam.

Ann: Yeah. So basically the summary of this is Jill Stein was like send me your dollars for a recount. The money has been going out but the recount has not happened. So I don't know, we'll link to an article about it. I'm just saying . . .

Aminatou: Oh my god, is she just using the money to travel and live large?

Ann: To buy chunky jewelry? I don't know. That was borderline sexist but I'm going to stand by it. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Whatever. I cannot. These people. These people. Okay. The tagline for the political grifters is Make My Bank Account Great Again. LOL. Their hallmarks are charging fake news when confronted, Macy's [0:21:56] with a Bergdorf budget. That is killing me. Lofty language with basic motivations. So real. Their natural habitat, shitting on a gold taxpayer-funded toilet. I'm dying Ann. I'm dying. I'm dying. What a terrible grift. Like I would not want to do this grift. Mm-mmm.

(22:15)

Ann: No. I mean I do feel like we have some slight disagreements on the feasibility of this grift but we both agree it is work. I mean all grifts are work. Like that's the thing.

Aminatou: I guess this is just not work I would want to do. Like I bet you the fake royal was having a blast, you know what I'm saying? It's just like this is what I always wanted to do. I just have a hard time believing Ben Carson is like "Ugh, being secretary of HUD is what I've always wanted to do."

Ann: Totally. Okay, next category is a quickie. Speaking of low-lift grifts, yeah, queens of the low-lift grift, right? Messy bitches who live for drama include Joanne the scammer who we have talked about on this podcast before. We can link to her account. Basically someone who has comedically monetized the grift to great rewards for everyone on the Internet following her. But in more recent news did you see the news about this ex-Vogue staffer who like stole Grace Coddington's credit card and charged 50K in unauthorized purchases?

Aminatou: Ann, I have so many feelings about the ex-Vogue staffer. So here's the problem is that this story was funny to me but also it was not funny because I was like Conde Nast if you're going to pay people zero dollars of course they're going to steal from you. I don't know why this one is a little tender for me but the thing with this Vogue lady is she is beautiful in the way that I wish the Baroness van Scamburg had been, you know? Where I was like oh, if the looks of this woman had matched up with her ambition she probably would not have got caught. But also don't steal from your job credit card. Of course they're going to catch you. Like that's terrible.

(23:55)

Ann: Also I have to say a couple details from this story. In it Grace Coddington was identified in court papers as "Informant 1."

Aminatou: I know. When I saw that I died. I was like this is so . . .

Ann: And the second part of the grift was this woman -- this former assistant selling Grace Coddington's unused luxury goods on the RealReal, the consignment website.

Aminatou: Allegedly, Ann. Allegedly, Ann. Allegedly. [Laughs]

Ann: Accused of. Sorry, accused of. And I'm like wow, what happens when you have so many designer clothing items sitting around that you don't miss them for quite a while?

Aminatou: I know. I'm just like how did she get caught? God bless Joanne the scammer. She is the only real entrepreneur on this list.

Ann: It's true. Okay, so quickly so we can move on to a new category the tagline for messy bitches who live for drama/what did we call them before? We had some other name for this category that I now forget. Their tagline is iconic. Hallmarks include expensive taste and proximity to fashionable Caucasian people with lots of money and designer stuff lying around. And the natural habitat is Twitter for both media people and Joanne the scammer.

Aminatou: True, true, true.

Ann: True.

Aminatou: True, true. I can't wait for the rise of the Instagram scammer.

Ann: Oh my god, it's already a thing.

Aminatou: I mean it's already a thing, all these people selling like weight loss teas. But there's going to be an incredible Instagram scam.

Ann: It's true.

Aminatou: Can't wait. Can't wait.

[Music and Ads]

(28:25)

Aminatou: Okay, next category: the self-declared saints. I actually -- ugh, talk about a scam category I don't like. So this is the category for like Pope Francis, all popes really, Justin Trudeau, all Justin Trudeaus. [Laughs]

Ann: All Justins really. Every Justin. Justin Therough, Justin Trudeau. [Laughs]

Aminatou: John McCain. Like anybody who falls in the elder statesman, did one good thing one time, can't really impeach them anymore vibe this is those people.

Ann: Yeah. And again I think we have kind of gone in on each of these men at length in other episodes. But to summarize I think what makes me so frustrated is you can signal publicly that you don't hate women and gay people for example then completely get away with perpetrating a bunch of other shit or not changing fundamentally bad policies. And I think about, you know, especially when Pope Francis was first smoke signaled into office or whatever . . .

Aminatou: [Laughs] I hate you.

Ann: By the council of cardinals who had a long history of covering up a sex abuse scandal.

Aminatou: Yeah. Like Pope Francis hasn't even done anything about that.

(29:42)

Ann: Exactly, like he didn't -- and there have been since that first year some low-key overtures but he hasn't done the kind of huge institutional reform required to really clean house after a scandal of that magnitude. What he has done is said some nice things about women and LGBTQ people. But I'm like okay, that's cool but you're presiding over some deeply flawed systems and I know that your words are important and it's cool that you're making people who this church has traditionally rejected feel less marginalized. But also deal with it on a policy level like everything. I don't know. I'm just like dude does not get a pass for some nice words.

Aminatou: Right, right.

Ann: And that is sort of my general feeling about Trudeau and McCain and politicians who ride one nice vibe all the way to sainthood.

Aminatou: Yeah. You know the thing about it that frustrates me though about this is that we -- like society we -- is so complicit in making these self-declared saints, right? Because virtue signaling works so well. It's just like oh, Justin Trudeau, he is handsome. He's somewhat progressive. He's Canadian. All of those things. And to be clear the Trudeau government is doing really great stuff but also there's a lot of stuff that he's terrible about, you know? Like the environment and native people's rights in Canada and all of this stuff. And that gets very quickly swept under the rug. It drives me up the wall like how easy it is to just be, especially in the arena of politics and policy, there are only good people and bad people. And we are very uncomfortable with like eh, some bad people do good things and some good people do bad things and that's the human experience.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: And instead we always rush to make heroes out of people that I'm like eh? I'm like John McCain for sure honorably served his country in going to war if war is your thing. But also I'm like, you know, here is a person that every single time has shown no spine when it comes to not doing politics as usual with the GOP. And so that's hard for me. You know, I'm just like wow, why can't we just be like John McCain is a person who has done good things and John McCain also does bad things? Like all of the time in fact.

(32:05)

Ann: Right. So yeah, so the heart of the self-declared saint scam is they're not only self-declared but we're all quick to also declare them saintly in response because we're all looking for heroes. So that is the real scam.

Aminatou: And also a lot of times these people, they are like dudes. There are self-declared lady saints but they tend to go down like way faster.

Ann: Yeah, and see our earlier episode about Eric Schneiderman for example.

Aminatou: Yeah. Okay, the tagline for the self-declared saints, "I don't openly hate women or gay people." [Laughs]

Ann: Wow, great tagline.

Aminatou: Hallmarks, excellent press for less than excellent results. That is so true. Not being as bad as the other powerful men in the room. Natural habitats a global summit of some kind. Ugh, so depressing.

Ann: Ugh. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Oh my god, this category is one that is near and dear to my heart. This is the air quote "wellness icons." So in this category you have your Gwyneth Paltrows, your Amanda Chantal Bacons who if you don't know who that woman is I feel sorry for you. She basically built an empire out of like vegan powders with very dubious health benefits. Now this woman Amanda Rogobe, is that how you say her name?

Ann: I don't know how you pronounce her new name. I think she did one of those things where she got a new name privately but kept her Chantal Bacon professionally.

Aminatou: Yeah, you know? I know. Here is the deal about when people change their names: 95% of the time it involves a scam and that includes people who change their name for marriage reasons. [Laughter]

Ann: The other scam is that she got married to a guy who plays ukulele with Devendra Banhart. That's the other . . .

(34:00)

Aminatou: I love that little who tidbit. That's perfect.

Ann: When scammers get scammed. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I know. Alex Jones of conspiracy theory fame Alex Jones 100% fits into this category because for all of his talk about chem trails and is Barack Obama Kenyan or whatever the thing that pays for his entire empire is like powders and shakes.

Ann: Yeah. Infowars, his website, has a life health store featuring "revolutionary natural products" which we will link to this amazing Quartz article from last year about how the Goop store and Alex Jones' Infowars store basically sell the same shit.

Aminatou: Different branding, same shit. Doesn't surprise me.

Ann: Yeah. And I feel like the wellness scammer is targeting people who either have enough money where they're like I literally have all the physical items I could ever want and now I have to pour money into non-FDA approved things that are going to make me live longer/better or people who don't have that much money and want to live like the rich. Like those are kind of the targets of this scam.

Aminatou: Yeah. I think the thing about this scam too though is it's very aspirational so it seems like a little more accessible, right? Gwyneth Paltrow and Goop on its face, for as much as I like to make fun of it, I have been known to buy things from the Goop store. Not vitamins or that stuff but I'm like oh, I like this aesthetic and this lifestyle even though I deride it, right? The reason that this kind of scam really annoys me is because at its heart it's very anti-science. The glamorous part of the scam is Gwyneth Paltrow or going to like Amanda Chantal Bacon's moon juice store or whatever. But the overlap between these people and vaccine deniers is very seriously large, you know? I'm like this is seriously how you start descending into science is wrong and I know what I'm doing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So this scam really, really, really irritates me because if it has a patina that we're okay with then we fuck with it and if it doesn't then ugh, who would buy anything from Alex Jones? But really it's the same thing that Gwyneth is selling.

(36:20)

Ann: Yeah. I think for me the scam is if you profess to have health and wellness be a core value and you are not spending an equal amount of time working tirelessly for things like broad access to healthcare for example, like if you interpret that commitment to wellness as like your gym membership and some space powder or whatever as opposed to . . .

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: As opposed to be cognizant on a policy level of how unattainable wellness is on a really basic level in this country, like I have no time for you. If you spend equal amounts of time on both of those things I'm like cool story, whatever. But if you are not using your platform to kind of talk about wellness in this systemic, bigger way I'm like hmm, that's the scam.

Aminatou: You know who else totally fits in this category?

Ann: Who?

Aminatou: All of the Oprah doctors: Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz. Big, big, big scammers.

Ann: Yes.

Aminatou: Wow, Oprah has made a lot of scammers. That's a podcast for a different day but I'm just like I don't like that at all..

Ann: Well very related to what we were saying before about how all your favs have done shameful things. Yep.

Aminatou: Yeah. The tagline for air quote "wellness icons" is these herbs and crystals will push us forward as humans/use code GOOP for 10% off.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: Hallmarks: white linen wardrobe, refer to self as mama, lack of FDA approval. Ann, you are so brutal. Their natural habitat is the wellness space, a.k.a. Malibu. LOLs.

(37:55)

Ann: Ooh, okay, next category. This is a real classic scammer category which is pyramid schemers.

Aminatou: I love a good pyramid scheme.

Ann: It is really . . . I mean also because there are so many parts to a pyramid scheme. So you've got like . . . so you've got some classic Ponzi schemer like Bernie Madoff and then also the vegan Bernie Madoff who we will link to our previous episode about her. But I think one way this manifests in a more nefarious, interpersonal way is multi-level marketing scams, i.e. that one message you got from a person in high school you haven't spoken to in decades.

Aminatou: Well yeah, the message always starts like . . . here's how you know that somebody that you knew from high school is scamming you is if the first two words out of their mouth are "Hey hon." Like it's like a classic they're about to sell you . . .

Ann: Maybe this is specific to your Texas collegiate experience. I'm like I don't know that I've been hey honed but maybe this is regional.

Aminatou: Oh my god. You hons, like the minute someone hey hons you they are trying to sell you a weird lipstick, a weird legging, something called Beach Body. Always. Or essential oils.

Ann: Yeah. And the thing about the pyramid schemers is those people who are sending you the Facebook messages are also getting got by someone who is at the top of the scheme. And I think that that's . . .

Aminatou: Truthfully.

Ann: Yeah. That is where I'm like it is hard because this is a category where many scammers are scamming themselves but it is very literal in the pyramid scheme category of scammers where it's like you are both trying to get me involved in this thing where the possibilities for true financial payout are very low but also you're doing this because you fronted a lot of your own money on this product in order to buy into this scheme and it is not . . . it is true that you are both victim and perpetrator of said scheme.

(39:55)

Aminatou: I know. Related pyramid schemes: academia and religion.

Ann: Oh my god, complete -- grad school. Grad school. On my god.

Aminatou: 100%. But you know the thing about the pyramid schemers in general? So your Bernie Madoffs, even like the girls in high school who are trying to sell your MLMs, the reason that I think they're the exact same kind of evil and everybody in this category deserves each other including the people who get got is because the root of this scam is greed. It is 100% greed. People refuse to call it for what it is. So it's like when I think about Bernie Madoff, first off Bernie Madoff was not . . . he wasn't a hedge fund. But whenever you'd hear about it in the news there was like "It's a hedge fund." And I'm like no, he's literally a bad financial adviser. That's different.

Ann: Mm-hmm.

Aminatou: Think about it, right? It's like the entire economy is tanking and here is this man going "Oh, I'm going to double your money in times of bad economy." You have to be like a bad person fundamentally to believe that that is true, like that can happen for you. With the MLM people it's really terrible because you're asking people who don't know how to sell shit to overnight become salespeople, you know? And the reason that I guess it's a little sadder for the people in the down line is the only thing they have to leverage are their personal relationships which the less socioeconomic status you have actually the more important those are outsizely because it's truly all you have. It's like you don't have a skill then somebody says "Open a credit card for $15,000. Buy all these leggings." And I'm like hmm, this does not seem like it is going to work. It is true that if it's too good to be true it's like a scam, you know?

(41:42)

Ann: Yeah. I mean I don't know. I think it is hard for me to not have at least some kind of compassion for the kind of MLM participant, especially in this country where there's like . . . it is super expensive. You know, we require everyone to pay for childcare out-of-pocket. It's super expensive. There's not a lot of support for going back and getting a degree, especially if you're many years out of high school. It's not like it's really the kind of thing that seems easy so much as seems like one of the only things that's doable if you say have a couple of kids and need flex employment that you can do from home. It's very much sold as start your own business. It's not sold as get rich quick. And I think like -- I don't disagree with you about what's actually being sold but I do think it requires a certain level of financial savvy and maybe recognition of the corner that people are forced into employment-wise. Like definitely not everyone that participates but I definitely see why this is flourishing in this no social safety net moment of economic crisis.

Aminatou: I know. But I guess the reason I'm a little more sanguine about it is this is like a thing where you have to recruit other people, right? I'm like wow, you are not super clear on what the thing is because they can never fully explain it to you. And then they're trying to rope other people into it. I'm like that is some degree of evil. It's not cool. I feel more tenderly about the scammers who operate solo, you know? The royalty people in the sense where I'm like okay, the only person you're playing is yourself here and you will individually steal from people. But if your grift is literally based on recruiting many people I'm like these are the mechanics of a cold and I'm not comfortable with that. It just fundamentally makes me sick that the lowest-level part of the scam is roping other people in with you.

(43:44)

Ann: Yeah. I mean I'm not defending the overall thing. I guess I'm just trying to say I do have some empathy for the certain type of person who finds themselves ensnared by this. I'm closing out the pyramid schemers. The tagline is "You'll want to get in on the ground floor of this incredible business opportunity."

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: The hallmarks are ability to convince people they have a really hot opportunity to make some money when in fact they are the only ones cashing in.

Aminatou: Hey hon! [Laughs]

Ann: Hey hon. Natural habitat is both Wall Street and Facebook inboxes and that's it for the pyramid schemers. All right, last category is . . .

Aminatou: The Silicon Valley tech scammer.

Ann: Oh my god.

Aminatou: Which let's be real, everything in Silicon Valley is a scam. 1,000 percent. Like name the company we'll tell you the scam behind it. But there is a particular kind of startup scam where because the culture is so secretive it's like you can't . . . most people working in startups are always like "I'm doing -- we're in stealth mode." The fact that stealth mode is words that you hear all the time in San Francisco tells you everything you need to know. People are working on building the future and whatever so there is just this element of secrecy and this element of like science that we don't really understand that is primal space for some of these grifters to thrive. And Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos, even the name sounds like a scam.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: It comes to mind in this category.

Ann: Yeah. I mean so I read Bad Blood which is the Wall Street Journal reporter John Carreyrou's book about how the whole Elizabeth Holmes Theranos scandal went down. The summary is, if you're not familiar with her, she kind of had this narrative that is very "classic" -- I'm air quoting -- like fabled tech founder which is to say she dropped out of Stanford. She right away wrote a patent for a "world-changing idea." She got a bunch of very old, wealthy men onboard with her idea. The problem was her idea was about blood testing and it didn't work and therefore . . .

(46:00)

Aminatou: Like truly did not work from the beginning.

Ann: From day one. This book is like if I had any doubts about whether she just kind of was hopeful that the science would catch up with her talking points and it wasn't quite there yet versus whether she was actively endangering people while also scamming them, like the book put all of that to rest. I'm like definitely 100% evil scammer who from day one knew she could not test blood from one drop from your finger and determine whether you were sick. It is a bonkers story. And also fascinating because Elizabeth Holmes adopted all these trappings like I said of kind of famous, venerated Silicon Valley men like she wore the Steve Jobs turtleneck. Respect to anyone in a turtleneck generally but don't weaponize it. Don't weaponize this perfect clothing item.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: You know, and just in terms of who she cozied up to and how she used secrecy and the aforementioned stealth mode to protect her lies. It was like wow, wow, wow.

Aminatou: You don't hear too much about high-tech lady scammers so just for that alone I'm like I tip my hat to you milady. [Laughter] But this is like actually wild to me. It's wild to me, and in my head she's in the same bucket as Anna Delvey -- Del-vi -- Baroness van Scamburg in the sense that they're just these very mousy, ordinary white ladies who just get away with everything because whiteness is a scam.

Ann: Yes.

Aminatou: Like being a white woman is so easy to scam people out of everything. It's like I think about both of them. They're in the same bucket of my head because the one thing that should've been a tip-off that they're both scammers is their hair is atrocious.

Ann: Oh my god, I can't with you.

Aminatou: Ann, it's so true. It's so true. It's like you're trying to . . . like here's Elizabeth Holmes. At the height of her grift she was worth almost five billion dollars. Anna whatever who is worth all of the gold in Germany. And I was like all of this money and your highlights can't stay highlighted? What's going on here? It's not an appearance critique as much as it is real rich people do rich rich people shit which is like die their hair blonde every two weeks. Every time I see a New York City blonde I'm like that lady has a lot of money. That's real. It's like the stringy hair, the I'm not trying so hard. You know, just that whole veneer of I'm just very authentically myself when the whole thing is in fact just like -- for one was a black turtleneck and the other was a supreme hoodie. I was like wow, do you know how gorgeous and entrepreneurial you have to be to be like a black lady scammer? My goodness.

(48:52)

Ann: Yeah. I don't know, there's something about as well the way that gender played into the kind of before and after she got caught. You know, before she definitely benefited from being on lists of powerful women in Silicon Valley. There is this sense of when there are not that many people it's like the world is looking for an example to hold up, right? And that made her scam easier to perpetrated. Essentially endemic sexism in Silicon Valley made it easier for her to perpetrate her scam.

Aminatou: Wow, a scam begat another scam.

Ann: Listen, and completely. And after it became clear this was sticking and it wasn't like something she was going to be able to make go away one of the first things she said was it's sexist. They just want to take down a woman founder. And it's like you know you can't play that if you have not actively been spending your time on cultivating other women in this industry or if you have not been basically practicing any kind of feminism. It's really hard for me to be like don't bring your gender analysis to the floor now, you know what I mean? Like now that you're in trouble.

(50:00)

Aminatou: [Laughs] Wow, I want that. I want that on a tote bag.

Ann: And she had all these old, retired military men. Her board was like Henry Kissinger and like . . .

Aminatou: General Mattis.

Ann: General Mattis.

Aminatou: Who is now in government and nobody has asked him about that. I'm like you were complicit in this scam and now we're letting you run our military. What?

Ann: Yeah. Secretary of Defense who ordered a bunch of her faulty machines and didn't really want to check up on the science. And so I'm just like there's a lot going on there that the book -- the book is not a book of analysis. It's basically a tick-tock of what some whistle blowers said went on behind the scenes which is fascinating. But I do think there is . . . there's a lot going on with her story that has to do with race and gender and the dynamics of an industry where there's a ton of money sloshing around and there's not a lot of inclusivity or diversity.

Aminatou: And also talk about a real evil scam. It's like don't take these machines to the military or give people bad blood results, you know? I'm like people will die and people have died.

Ann: Yeah. That's the other thing. It's like, you know, it's not just like "Oh, ha ha, these old rich Republican men lost out on their investment." It's like Rupert Murdoch lost like 100 million dollars or something like that which is pocket change.

Aminatou: Which was a write-off, you know what I mean?

Ann: Exactly. Pocket change for him.

Aminatou: Like a write-off.

Ann: Normally I would say like LOL, who cares? If not for the fact that these testing machines were in Walgreens stores and people actually had their blood tested with them then had negative things happen in their life because of wrong results.

Aminatou: Totally. And also, you know, to go back to playing the woman card not that this should be exclusively her fault but she will make it harder for other women to raise money for this kind of hard science.

Ann: Yeah.

(51:50)

Aminatou: You know, that's not a thing that is genuinely her fault. In a perfect world it's like oh, women should be able to scam as much as men do and nobody can call them out for it. But it's like sorry, this is the world that we live in. And she already did that turtleneck thing. The next lady in a turtleneck is never going to come.

Ann: And what happens if your soul is a turtleneck, right? What happens when I want to . . . [Laughs]

Aminatou: Like with the Diane Keaton Silicon Valley approach. [Laughs]

Ann: Right. What happens when I want to get billions of dollar in investment and I'm like "No, you guys, I really just wear turtlenecks year-round. This is who I am. I'm not trying to be the younger female Steve Jobs."

Aminatou: Ann, are you wearing a turtleneck right now?

Ann: Listen, I'm not currently because I am legit still in my pajamas even though it's well into the afternoon hours. However I do have several cropped sleeveless turtlenecks that I wear all summer long.

Aminatou: Oh my gosh. You're like spiritually I am wearing a turtleneck. Okay.

Ann: Spiritually I'm always in a turtleneck. Okay.

Aminatou: [Laughs] The tagline for the Silicon Valley tech scammer is "Sign this NDA." Too real. I can't even laugh, that one's too real. Their hallmarks are black t-necks, fetish for military experience, overblown sense of own potential. Natural habitat: boardroom where she is the only woman. This is so real. Okay, I'm going to go lay down because this was a lot of information.

Ann: I know. All right, see you on the Internet.

Aminatou: See you on the Internet. Bye, boo. You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.

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