Buffet of Horrors
6/15/18 - Remember when the question was, let me know when this administration gets really bad? Welcome to this week, especially for immigrants. We rage and discuss ways to get active in your local community. Plus, loving ways to handle bouts of mental illness and depression within a friendship.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
ShopCYG is back!
A small town in Tennessee deals with immigration raids
Voter-roll purges greenlit by SCOTUS
Why “You are loved” and “please reach out” aren’t good enough
Crisis text line: Text HOME to 741741 in the United States
Or call 1-800-273-8255
TRANSCRIPT: Buffet of Horrors
[Ads]
(1:20)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda: dealing with the fallout of the horrible Trump administration policies towards asylum seekers and immigrants, that Angela Merkel photo, the dictator summit, all kinds of horrible news this week, plus we get real about mental health and what it means to actually talk about depression and mental health in the culture of a friendship.
[Theme Song]
(2:09)
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman!
Ann: Hey Aminatou Sow. How's your summer?
Aminatou: Girl! We are out here. Is it officially summer yet?
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: Like officially in the seasons?
Ann: I mean I feel like my thighs are chafing and my ankles are constantly inflamed with bites of some kind so that is like summer is here.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I'm like have we experienced the Solstice yet? It doesn't matter. Truly ever month since it's been warm has been summer for me so I'll take it.
Ann: You know what has always cracked me up about the Summer Solstice is it's my parents' wedding anniversary and that might lead you to believe that it's kind of like a woo-woo, like we've chosen this auspicious day for our wedding. And really it's like . . .
Aminatou: Longest day of the year! [Laughs]
Ann: Listen, I mean welcome to one million literal dad jokes in my life. It's like "Longest day of the year!" Oh my god, anyway, happy almost Solstice to all you lovebirds.
Aminatou: Oh my god I love it. I love it. It sounds very witchy and cool.
Ann: Oh my god, it's not. It's definitely not. In very important, exciting news . . .
Aminatou: Ooh, tell me.
Ann: Today marks the relaunch of the CYG shop.
Aminatou: Woo! Shopcyg.com. Look at that, brand new website.
Ann: Yeah. And to give you the low-down on why we've been away for a while and what is new/a little business woman special behind the scenes, Carly Knowles, our merch maven, is going to tell you about it.
Carly: Hey CYG listeners, this is Carly the Call Your Girlfriend merch maven. We've recently relaunched the shop and have a new home at shopcyg.com. Shine Theory enamel pins are back in stock along with a new Shine Theory bestie pack and a super-soft CYG summer tee. Along with the relaunch we've also switched out platforms and made the switch to a fulfillment service to help us out with shipping. After our huge summer pre-sale last year we realized we'd outgrown our current setup of me shipping out everyone's orders solo and needed to get help with our order fulfillment. Finding both a company willing to work with a small shop like us along with a business we felt good about working with took a few months but we're thrilled to be back open.
(4:25)
Along with getting your orders out much, much faster than before the CYG shop will now be open 24/7 and I'll have time to focus on developing new products for the shop. We always love getting shop feedback so please let me know what you're loving and hating about the new shop setup and what products you'd like to see us carry. You can email me directly at cygmerch@gmail.com.
Aminatou: Look at Carly always making magic happen.
Ann: Thriving. You know we are a small but powerful team here at CYG. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know, Carly's superpower is picking out the softest cotton so I am very excited about my t-shirt.
Ann: It is true. I didn't realize I had a life goal which is the softest t-shirts I own are also ones I also sell. Like who knew that was a goal until we achieved it? [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know, shout-out to merch. It's all good. I'm very happy about it.
Ann: Yeah. And shout-out to all the other teeny, tiny businesses like us that are kind of caught in this weird middle ground of being too much work for one human being not enough work to justify a full fulfillment manufacturing operation. So anyway yet another reason why it is good to shop small and support businesses like that because they are working really hard in a way where there's this huge market gap and are not being supported. So shout-out to Carly. Shout-out to our small biz peers.
Aminatou: Love it. What are we talking about today boo-boo?
(5:50)
Ann: I mean buffet of horrors today. Like truly I'm sorry to tell you but . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Like thinking about all the things that are happening in the news right now I just . . . I really struggle to find something that is not like all-out like war on vulnerable people awful. It has been difficult.
Aminatou: Yeah. I know that we talk about this a lot, just this like "When is it going to get really bad in the country?" or whatever. And the truth is that it is incredibly hard for a lot of people right now. And I keep thinking about all of the horrific immigration stories that we're hearing right now whether it's children that are being snatched away from their parents at the border or this new directive from the Department of Justice that's literally saying they are no longer going to allow people who are victims of domestic and gang violence to ask for asylum.
Ann: Yeah. And this is one of those things that like like a lot of stuff in the news it's not like these are newly vulnerable populations under this administration but it's also this escalation of the language. And it also comes in concert, especially a lot of people have been pointing out when it comes to people who are threatened with gang violence, like how can you out of one side of your mouth say that gang members are animals and out of the other side of your mouth say people fleeing gang violence do not have a place in the United States? Like we will not keep you safe.
Aminatou: Right. And also remember the condition that's created a lot of these gangs in Central America is actually America created those.
Ann: Sure.
Aminatou: And people are running away from terrible conditions in their own countries and they're asking for asylum. And the thing honestly that really infuriates me about this is the way the DOJ and Jeff Sessions are really positioning it is people are just showing up at the border for whatever, to freeload on America. And it's like actually we have this thing called the 1951 Refugee Convention and it's a legally binding document that even the United States has signed.
(8:00)
Ann: Even the United States.
Aminatou: Yeah. I'm like it is a right of people from all over the world to seek asylum. It is not this crime. All of the talks around refugees and asylees, it's really gross because people forget that people are leaving incredibly vulnerable situations. It's like excuse me Jeff Sessions, no one wants to come to your piece of shit country to live alongside you. People are coming because they are fleeing conditions that your country has created for them.
Ann: Yeah. And in the case of immigrants who are experiencing domestic violence, and in many cases the people who are being violent towards them are using their immigration status as a threat. And guess what? The culture that this administration is creating in terms of how immigrants are viewed allows those abusive partners to continue to threaten and say "Look, if you report this no one's going to believe you and you're going to be deported." It's a circuitous, awful system where it has been there. You know, when the Violence Against Women Act was up for renewal I want to say in 2013, in the not too distant past, in the Obama years, the provisions related to immigrant survivors of domestic violence were up for debate then. And even then I'm just thinking of our episode about scammers last week. Like even then those people in debates on the Senate floor were portrayed as people trying to scam their way into the country, not people who were trying to get out of a dangerous and violent situation. And so it's been there but now it's just like, you know, the people who are in charge of all this shit are just saying it openly. [Sighs]
(9:44)
Aminatou: And it's really infuriating when you think about all these politicians that claim that they're pro-family and they're pro-life and don't do abortions and uphold life no matter the cost. And then you think of what they are doing to families at the border right now. It is really, really, really disgusting because separating children from their parents for whatever fucked-up reason that you have, it's not okay. It's not okay and historically it has happened before. Black and brown bodies get separated from their parents for many reasons. Children got separated from their parents in the Holocaust also and it's just like history is repeating itself. And they're using policy to do this and also they're weaponizing the good will that so many people have towards refugees and towards asylees. It's true that we have a crisis. There's so many people that are in danger in Central America that they want to come to the United States. The answer is not to close the border or to make conditions untenable for them because there are also all these stories in the news right now about people who are getting deported in really messed up conditions where they've been here since they were three years old or whatever, or they have a family here, they own homes here. And for whatever reason we're going after people who are not -- historically have not been a priority to deport and they're being deported and they're dying.
Like we're hearing so many stories about people who are dying to gang violence in Mexico for example. And it really, really, really distresses me that this is happening and we are watching it happen and the best we can do is shrug. Maybe we'll vote in new people in four years. It's like no, this is very despicable and it is happening right now today in the United States. It's not okay.
Ann: Right. And also I have to say too that what we let our government get away with doing to the most vulnerable people here like asylum seekers, immigrants, is what we're telling them is acceptable full-stop. Anyone who's setting up kind of a false these people over here and me over here, like two kinds of people in this country, is fulling themselves. Like you are playing yourself if you think this is something that affects one class of people over there that does not have ramifications for how everyone in this country is viewed and treated. I don't know, I keep thinking about this. I read an article in the New York Times this week about a small town in Tennessee where there was a huge immigration raid. The town is less than 20,000 people. Actually hang on, I can find the population. It's a very small town. And it's basically about the entire community -- everyone who lives in this place -- struggling to both comprehend why you would do this to families who are just trying to live their lives and work and also why would you do this to everyone who cares about them?
(12:40)
I mean listening to teachers talk about the heartbreak of trying to continue teaching their students when the kids don't know where their parents are or if they're coming home. I mean like the idea that you can somehow enact policies like this without truly fucking up everyone who is in this country is just so wrong. I don't know, this idea that you can mentally separate that, it might be true in the short term for people like Jeff Sessions but it is definitely not true in the long term for all of us.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know, and it's just really messed up when you think about the global order or the world that we live in, right? Where we are all party to these conventions. The United States is a member of the United Nations until further notice at least.
Ann: For now.
Aminatou: You know, for now these are promises that we have made. This really kind of retro idea that like people want to just flee to America because it's, I don't know, the land of milk and honey and whatever, it's like yeah, part of that is true. But if you're also watching what's happening right now America is not a hot place to be. Everything is actually falling apart here and the fact that the people who are in power . . . like I'm thinking about the G7 meeting recently and how terrible it was. And it's like America is losing standing in the world and that is apparent in the way we are treating people who are seeking asylum. If you don't know what it takes to get asylum in the United States I really, really encourage you to find out. You can go to uscis.gov and see how that process works. I was in that process for over three years and it was not a walk in the park. And all that it is is you are asking for asylum. That is a legal right that everybody should have.
(14:30)
What the government is doing now is telling people they don't have the right to seek asylum. Like that is really, really, really despicable. It really -- it's really discouraging to me. Like it is outrageous and it is going to have so many more ramifications that we are thinking about now.
Ann: Yeah. So, god, and I think that's why when I think about other things that were all over the Internet this week like that picture of Angela Merkel . . . the photo looked like her standing up to Trump which we all know it's a summit. Lots of people were not telling the horrible Cheeto president what he wanted to hear, right? This is happening a lot.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: But this photo that everyone was sharing is because it expresses this feeling that we all have of like who is going to stand up? And not just who is going to stand up as in we all definitely have a responsibility to do that but who can check at the top levels of power the people who are perpetrating this stuff, you know?
Aminatou: Well, but the thing about . . . I was looking at that picture and it was funny for two seconds and then it was terrifying.
Ann: Oh I don't think it's funny at all.
Aminatou: Because truly what is going on is first of all the thing about it that is so infuriating is I'm like Donald Trump if you read a fucking book you would know that the G-7 or what was known as the G-8 was actually setup by the United States. It's like all of this bullshit that you hate your country actually created for assurances for the future. So you create the alliance and then you fuck it up. And now I'm like all of these countries, they are going to get frustrated and in a sense they can leave and we can't. I'm like we leave . . . but I'm like Europe and Canada is just going to look at America and they're like "We're going to leave you in the dust."
Ann: Form a new alliance, yeah.
(16:20)
Aminatou: You know what I mean? And it's true. It's already happening. It's like infrastructure in this policy is garbage. Social policies in this country are garbage. Anywhere that you travel overseas you're like hmm, America not so popping right now. It really, really, really worries me because on one hand it's like okay, great, presidents will come and go. But peace and prosperity are hanging on by a thread at any moment and this is the fucking idiot that we have. You know, and to also watch the visual of him get angry at Justin Trudeau, our favorite scammer . . . [Laughs] You know, like get angry at him . . .
Ann: Don't make us choose sides.
Aminatou: Yeah I'm like don't make me choose sides. But I'm like, you know, I was like please give Canada all the tariffs that they want. Like my god. You know, but it's like he's waging a trade war with Canada. American-Canadian relations are the most intense they've been since 1812. That's shocking. And to do that and then turn around the next day and go meet the evil, brutal dictator from North Korea and tell him that he is honored to meet him? Like something that when . . . you remember when Obama was running in 2012 and he was like "I'll sit down with any bad regime" and all the Republicans and Tea Partiers or whatever . . .
Ann: Oh, they freaked out. They freaked out.
Aminatou: Like called him a traitor. And I'm like your guy literally -- he literally put the American flag next to the North Korean flag. He is giving a thumbs-up to the most brutal dictator that is alive today and it's going to be used in a loop for propaganda. Your guy's the idiot. And to watch him just be able to do that and then say that like, you know, Kim Jong-un is talented and that he's just a young man trying to find his ways, some days this stuff is like okay, ha ha, maybe we'll get through it. And then other days you're like wow, history is unfolding in front of my eyes and this is terrifying. And this week has felt that way.
(18:12)
Ann: I tell you there was a New York Times op-ed. It was about like climate change and it was about -- it was written by I believe an astrophysicist. But the headline which I clicked immediately because it captured how I was feeling was Earth will survive; we may not.
Aminatou: [Laughs] That's so real.
Ann: It's so bleak but honestly that is the feeling this week. And I almost hate recording the show when I'm like I can't think of anything good to say. You know, we've had episode where we're just like "This is all bad. What are we even talking about? It's so depressing." But, you know, you're so right when you say that we kept being like okay, just wait until it gets really bad. And it's like okay, ding, ding, ding, we hit it. It's here. Like there's not . . . yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's here. And the thing is if you don't pay attention to how bad it is for other people that shit will sneak up on you so fast. That's the other problem too right? Is when all these idiot buffoons are gone, every single one of them that came with Trump, the damage that they're doing, that bell is going to be really hard to un-ring whether they're here or not.
Ann: Right. It's points like this where I'm like all I got is some donate, protest, midterm elections like on repeat. That's all I have.
Aminatou: Yeah, donate, protest. In the grand scheme of history you could be the one that is seeking asylum somewhere one day. And to know that you don't understand how it works or that you don't know what it means for you or your family, like people are touched by refugee status at some point in a generation in their family.
Ann: Yeah.
(19:45)
Aminatou: And it just -- I don't know, it's making me really emotional. I just cannot believe that this is, you know, I'm like wow, this is America now. In ways that are really shocking and terrifying and it is going to get worse.
Ann: Well and I also think that there are things that -- okay, here is me telling you, like everyone who is not a lawyer or was not aware of this, that you can go sit in on immigration proceedings. This is like public court proceedings.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: If you're someone with a flex schedule especially and you have some availability on the weekdays or let's say you work in the kind of city center of the place where you live which is like near immigration court for example you can go and you can sit in and you can see what this process looks like for people and how difficult it is for them.
Aminatou: And it is an adversarial court process, like 100%.
Ann: Unless, you know, you kind of win the casino like get a good judge, right? There has also been some good reporting about this that we can link to. But basically it is a roll of the dice what kind of immigration judge you get at a hearing like that. And so let's say you don't love someone who's applied for asylum before. Let's say you don't come from a family with mixed immigration status. This is a thing that you can educate yourself about by showing up. And they're not going to call you out and be like "What are you doing here?" You are totally within your rights as a citizen to show up and observe. It's also totally within your rights as a citizen to call your police department or your county sheriff and ask what their policies are, how they are cooperating with/resisting the directives they're getting from ICE, and just educating yourself on that front. You don't even have to wait for there to be a local news article telling you everything you need to know about this issue. Like you can call and just be like "I'm a citizen and I want to know how are you using my tax dollars in this context?"
(21:42)
Aminatou: Right. And also find out what organizations in your community help resettle asylees and refugees. Like I work with a group here in Brooklyn and it's been really, really cool to resettle a couple of Iraqi families for example. And I'm going to give a plug to one of our sponsors, Casper, that on the low has been really great about giving us mattresses every time that we've asked and it's been really cool. But, you know, it sounds really cliché but it's like get to know people from other cultures. Like know why they're here. And also it truly, in the grand scheme of things, like what does it cost you personally to help a stranger? Probably nothing. It is going to cost you your soul not to do anything about it.
Ann: Right. It's true, yeah. Like minimum -- minimum things to do. And that's the other thing, that actually we've gotten to a point where it's not like doing that stuff makes me feel better but at least having some firsthand knowledge of what's going on and feeling like you know the lay of the land in your own backyard I think is very, very important. So you know when there is a policy change that says "Guess what? The local police in your district are going to be required to comply with ICE now" whereas in the past they could be like "Cool directive, man. We're not really going to follow that." That's a thing you want to know about because that makes your entire community less safe.
Aminatou: Totally.
Ann: And that means your neighbors are literally living in fear now.
Aminatou: Right. You know, and it's also going back to a conversation we had a couple of weeks ago about when you feel safe to call the police for example to deescalate a situation or whatever is to really start to think like what does it mean when I exert my privilege in a place? I'm just like if you have black or brown friends you should definitely not be in the habit of calling the police willy-nilly. That is just a thing you should consider. But I'm thinking about last week in Brooklyn there was a story about a delivery driver who went to deliver to an address on a military base that is here in Brooklyn. Yes, shocker, we have military bases in Brooklyn. The restaurant had delivered to that place multiple times before, it had never been an issue, and this time they asked him for his ID.
(23:55)
New York City has an ID program that everybody can join. It's IDNYC. You can find out about it online. And it is just a free city ID card. San Francisco also runs a similar program. I know because I had one when I was not able to have a federal ID. And the idea of this city ID card is that New York like San Francisco are sanctuary cities and they're basically telling people who cannot get regular IDs for immigration problems, for you name it, that here is an ID that they can have and they're able to receive city services for it and also they can be identified by it. This person had their ID card. The minute he showed up on the military base they were like "Hmm, this sounds like a card that is not legit." Then they looked him up in the system and found that there was a warrant out for his deportation and they're trying to deport him.
And as a Brooklynite it is upsetting for many, many, many, many reasons and as a New Yorker it's infuriating for many reasons. And my thing is if your city has a program like this you should apply for the ID card whether you need it or not and you should start using it in places because we need to make these kinds of identification normal for people to carry. You should be able to fly with it. You should be able to go to a bar with it. You should be able to get on a base with it. But the thing is if only people who present as immigrants have them it is just another way to discriminate against them. So get to know what the policies are in place for refugees in your -- and for undocumented people -- in your city and find out ways you can participate with them and ways you can show solidarity across all lines. So if you live in New York you should definitely get a free city ID card. You get discounted museum memberships and cool stuff with it so it's 100% worth it and it is a way to make it normal to have alternative identification.
(25:55)
Ann: Totally. I love that and I also just want to make one final plea too to find a buddy to do some of this stuff with. Like for me, especially since the election, it has been life-changing to have people who I know are interested in actually being action-oriented about this stuff and saying "Hey, look, we are both going to commit to doing one thing a week. Keep me in the loop when you hear about a thing. Bring me with you when you do something and I'll do the same." And I think that has made a really big difference for me. So like as with most things being in community about how you're doing this rather than freaking out privately and quietly and adding it to your huge to-do list and never getting there, you know, there's a better way. There is a better way. So that's what I'm trying to do as well, some accountability.
Aminatou: Ooh, so much work to do. So much work to do.
[Music and Ads]
(30:00)
Aminatou: This week has just been hard for both of us. [Laughs] You know, I'm just like on a personal level, on a life level, everything. And I'm sure it's hard for people who have been listening to the show as well and reading the news about Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain dying by suicide has been -- it's been really, really tough to process, you know? I know that for me it's brought a lot of just feelings about friends and loved ones that I've had who have died by suicide or friends that have attempted suicide. And, you know, like our country has garbage mental health just help in general. And I know that this week we're dealing with a lot and today we're like "Here are all these things you need to do to be a good citizen and help refugees in your area." I think it's also important to remind people that you're not superhuman. We can only do the best that we can do and this thing is truly like training like a marathon, you know? So sometimes you need to take a break and take care of yourself and that doesn't make you less than or not engaged. It's like don't worry, the fight will always be here so taking truly some time out to take care of yourself, you are always your number one priority, is something that is really important to remember.
Ann: Yeah. And also just because something that is frankly really difficult and really hard day in and day out is not always something that is externally visible, is not something that is recognized and accommodated by the wider world, it does not make it any less valid. And yeah, and thank you for bringing this up right after talking about other horrible political stuff too because it is a hard line to walk, right? The cycle of being like oh, well what right do I have to feel like this because I have so much? Like look at all these other people who are suffering. That kind of thinking is also . . . just because the world is going down in flames does not mean pain you are feeling is also not valid if it is not happening in the headlines for example.
(32:20)
Aminatou: Yeah. And there's no shame in feeling like you're overwhelmed. Everything is overwhelming right now. Literally there is too much happening. And that's just what's happening externally, you know? Like we all have stuff that are happening in our own tiny worlds and sometimes you can really, really, really feel like you don't have the capacity to deal with all that stuff. So there's no shame in taking care of yourself. Like mental health truly is wealth and being vulnerable with your family and friends and your loved ones about what you're going through, it can truly be life-changing. And it is not your fault. It's a chemical imbalance. A lot of us go through it and all of this nonsense external stimuli doesn't help either.
I am finally at a place with my depression that it almost feels comforting that other people go through it because I truly know now that it is a very common thing. But there are just days or weeks, like last week was awful for me, where I was like okay, this is . . . it's almost like a common cold, you've got to let it pass through the body. But there are also a lot of coping strategies that you can use. And I have found for me that talking to friends is useful. Getting up every single day and taking a shower and going for a walk even when I don't want to is really useful. And above all else taking my meds.
(33:48)
Ann: Yeah. And I have to say, so I am someone who does not have depression, does not really have much -- my struggles are not in the mental health column, let me just put it that way, which does not mean I do not have struggles. But I really have thought about how especially when I was younger I wish I had been better about initiating conversations with my friends who I knew had depression or anxiety or things that were a recurring part of their lives and initiated a conversation with them at a point when I knew they were not really in it. You know, at a point when things were kind of more stable or when we were together and the two of us were good with each other. And just kind of saying like "Hello, can we talk about what happens when you are in the throes of this for real? And let's talk about things that I can do proactively when it happens again." Like I see that this is a thing that happens and you do not have to figure out what to do about it when it's happening in real time but maybe we should talk about this now. It's something that is like a real -- it's a really powerful thing about ongoing friendship.
I mean one of my oldest friends has had depression since she was 14. I've known her the whole time that she has had this illness. I've known her as long as she's known depression, let me put it that way. And it really had a formative effect on me and the way that I think about this stuff. So I know that we are in a minority, those of us who are not thinking about this and dealing with this, but thinking about how you kind of systematically in your friendships or in a really high-level way address it or think about it as part of the care that you provide and receive as part of a friendship I think has been really important for me. And also it can be so hard to know. I think the flip side, the older I get the more I'm like when a friend drops out of communication really forcing myself to notice okay, what do I know about this friend? What are the reasons they are likely to drop out of communication with me? And, you know, just kind of being the one to do the math and be a more aware and conscientious and loving and caring friend if this is not something that you are dealing with yourself in a personal way I think is important. So I don't know, separate plea to the tiny segment of our audience who's in me in this kind of weird we don't have depression corner.
(36:20)
It's interesting because for all the talk about friendship and community support that we have here and for all the postings that are like "Check on your friends!" in the wake of news about anything having to do with mental health or suicide it's not very well embedded in a lot of friendship culture if that makes sense.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, I agree with you. It's funny, when I saw a lot of the pleas on like "Check in on your friends" or whatever I actually got a little annoyed and pushed back on Twitter because I know that this is true for me and I've talked to other people who experience the same things where a lot of times when people ask you how you're doing you just lie because it is easier to not be honest about what is going on in your life than it is to actually talk. You know, it just feels -- it's so heavy to talk about. And this is nobody's fault, right? It's not your friends' fault or people who check in on you. The truth is sometimes we are just not equipped. You do not have the tools to do the things that needs to happen to get this person better. That's a national health crisis that we're having. It is nobody's fault per se. But I do think that you're right that embedding it in the language of like a friendship and in the culture of friendship is so important because I know for me at least all of the times where it has made a difference when somebody has checked in on me it's not that they were checking in but that it was truly somebody who knew me on that molecular level, you know? Where I know you have a sixth sense for when I'm in crisis because the signs are like . . . [Laughs] The signs are all there. At this point it's cliché. I'm like oh my god, if I don't get out of bed today Ann is going to call me. [Laughs]
Ann: It can't be, I mean how many . . .
(38:05)
Aminatou: And then it's like I've got to beat your phone call, you know? Or your check-in.
Ann: How many annoying upbeat voice memos can I send you before you just cancel me?
Aminatou: Never. Never, never, never, never. But the thing is that stuff matters and I think something that you have challenged me a lot in our friendship as somebody who goes through these episodes is when things are good to have a plan and think about it more as okay, this has happened. It will recur again, it will keep happening, and what are ways we can truly take care of each other and how we can hear that. Because here's the thing: it's like when you're depressed no amount of people telling you that they love you gets through, you know what I mean? It's like it takes the light a long time to pierce that darkness. But there are coping strategies that you can make that will make it better every day. And that's why I'm so militant about people going to therapy and people taking medicine. I know that everybody has their own different view on depression drugs or whatever and I will say that for me it has saved my life and I feel very lucky that 1) I have access to them and I feel lucky that I have access to mental healthcare professionals. And even with all those advantages it seems insurmountable sometimes.
But I think there is something also about just being honest with everybody in your life that these are things that you struggle with because the thing that I've found is some of the most successful people that you know struggle with mental health. And some people in your life that do a lot of labor that you're not aware of also struggle with mental health. And the more that we can have, you know, in your own friend community like honest conversations about it the better-equipped a lot of those people will be to support you.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: When you are going through a hard time. And there is truly no shame. There is like you've got a couple broken neurotransmitters. Just buy some. It's totally . . . it's just -- there is just no shame. There is truly no shame. Because I know that I used to feel this acutely where I was like okay, if I work hard enough or I give myself enough space or I give myself the weekend, you know, it was almost like depression and my anxiety, like I had it in my willpower to change them.
Ann: Oh no.
Aminatou: And that honestly made it even worse. And when I finally realized it I was like oh, no, this is like chemical imbalance legit. Like there is no amount of willing this away, of wanting it to go away or doing work or everybody's always like exercise. I'm like my god, at what price? [Laughs] All of these things where I really just had to have a come to Jesus with myself where I was like listen, this is an illness like many other illnesses. There are many ways to get over it but the first thing I have to do is admit I cannot will it away by sheer willpower and force. That's not going to happen. And that was transformative for me.
(41:10)
Ann: Yeah. I mean I also think that -- I mean it's funny. Every time you're like Ann Friedman levels of productivity I want to be like "Girl, I got the good neurotransmitters. It's not like I'm better. It's truly just I got lucky."
Aminatou: Ann, the biggest laugh you've ever given me is one day when I was accusing you of being productive and you just looked at me and you were like "Yeah, I don't have mental illness." [Laughs] I was just like that is so real but also just hearing you acknowledge that I was like oh wow. I was like oh. And we talk about a lot of stuff. Even in that moment I was like oh, thank you. New level of friendship unlocked. [Laughs]
Ann: Where I'm just stating the obvious, you know?
(41:50)
Aminatou: Yeah. I'm like whew, just got one more life for the next round. We can handle this. But it's true, even in friendships where you think you have real talk or whatever there's always room to talk about more stuff. And depression and anxiety and just going through the hard mental health stuff of life is normal. It has presented itself throughout history in every single human being. It does not make you lesser than; it is just a challenge you're going to have to work with.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah, I just want everybody to feel safe and supported. So don't talk to us about it. We are not equipped. But please, please, please talk to your family and friends about it. If you are in the United States you can text HOME to 741741. That's the crisis text line. I am not ashamed to say I have used it and it is legit and awesome. And if you hate the phone the crisis text line will totally sort you out. If you love the phone you can call [Laughs] -- I'm just kidding.
Ann: No one loves the phone. Are you kidding? Whenever I see that phone number I'm like you think depressed and anxious people are calling someone?
Aminatou: It's true. Listen. Listen, I love the phone. And how I know I'm depressed and anxious is when I don't want to talk on the phone. But for those of you who are old-school you can call 800-273-TALK and that is a suicide prevention lifeline and they will connect you with resources in your community. And like I will say this every day of my life: there is no shame in asking for help. Use every tool in the goddamn toolbox and you are so worth it.
Ann: And if you know someone who you know is struggling, like I actually -- one thing about all the narratives online that's like "Reach out! Tell them you love them!" I'm like you know what? It does not have to be a college commencement speech where you tell this person everything they mean to you. It's like send a LOL. Check in with a little -- like I love a voice memo because also thank you for bringing voice memos into my life in a real way but a voice memo is great because it's a one-sided way you can show your friend "Hi, it's me, a human. I'm thinking of you." It doesn't have to be like rocket science that you craft a perfect message that poignantly addresses what you think is going on with them. You can just be like here is a fun and cute thing on the Internet that made me think of you. You can just be like let me live text you as I watch this dumb TV show, you know? It does not have to be -- don't overthink it basically is what I'm trying to say. But do continue to show up for people. And, you know, when they're in a better place initiate a really straightforward conversation about how you can be a good and supportive friend. That's what I want to tell people on my side of this equation. And yeah, also it's totally fine to be normal when you ask about meds and therapy and stuff in the same way you'd be like "Is that weird rash still on your thigh?" You know what I mean?
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(44:55)
Ann: In the way any physical -- like "Is your twisted ankle healed?" You know, the same kind of nonchalance which you apply to normal body stuff should also apply to mental health.
Aminatou: Totally, totally, totally. And I'm going to say it again: there is no shame.
Ann: Ugh. I mean I feel like . . . I feel like that's it. I don't know if we can talk about anything else right now.
Aminatou: I know! I think we can wrap this up. I feel very tender.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: Hey, thanks for being my friend who checks in on me and sends me voice memos when you know that I'm just like laying on the floor crying for three days straight. I see you and I hear you.
Ann: Thanks for being my brilliant friend who has the ability to be such a great and loving person in my life despite having this shit to deal with yourself. I see you and I appreciate you every minute.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh, I'll see you on the Internet boo-boo.
Ann: I'm crying. I'll see you on the Internet.
Aminatou: Aww!
Ann: I'm very emosh.
Aminatou: I'm feeling very emosh too. You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.