Vote, Protest, Listen to Beyoncé

6/22/18 - Donate, Protest, Midterm Elections is the new Gym, Tan, Laundry. Let's move from shock and despair at Ivanka's dad's inhumane immigration policy to reading history and taking action. The white women who defend Trump (and still get burned). Delightful quotes from Flo Kennedy: ''Sweetie,'' she said, ''if you're not living on the edge, then you're taking up space.'' Gina got a website! Bey and Jay's creative partnership and black art in white spaces. And the power of a bespoke suit.

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

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CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Ad sales: Midroll

LINKS

Gina got a website!

Kirstjen Nielsen & complicit white women

Children ripped from their families: Native Americans, slaves, Japanese Americans

Democrats who paved the way for family separation

“Donate, Protest, Midterm Elections is the new Gym, Tan, Laundry.”

June 30: March to Keep Families Together

Flo Kennedy’s life, quotes, and public access show

Bey and Jay’s creative partnership, forgiveness, black art in white spaces

Emily Meyer suits / the power of bespoke

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TRANSCRIPT: Vote, Protest, Listen to Beyoncé

[Ads]

(0:25)

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A . . .

Aminatou: A podcast . . . [Laughter]

Ann: Wow, and just like that I got written out of the show.

Aminatou: Wow, wow, wow, wow.

[Theme Song]

(1:00)

Ann: On this week's agenda complicit white women and the United States' long history of ripping children from their families plus Democrats who paved the way for family separation and why donate, protest, midterm elections is the new gym, tan, laundry. In happier news we talk about Bey and Jay's creative partnership, forgiveness, black art in white spaces, and the power of a bespoke suit.

Aminatou: [Laughs] I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman and we're total professionals.

Aminatou: Ann, I'm so deliriously tired today. Like if this was shift work I've gone to all of my three jobs today, you know what I'm saying?

Ann: You are a podcast shift worker.

(1:45)

Aminatou: My brain is fried. And to be clear one of my job appearances today was literally just taking photos and video but you know how video is, right? It's like prance around for four hours then it's literally a 30 second clip.

Ann: Ugh, such low payoff.

Aminatou: And everything that could've done wrong went wrong. Like first of all it was one million degrees. And then the one thing that we had to do was like get photos of these balloons and then the balloons flew away. [Laughs]

Ann: That's a metaphor.

Aminatou: I won't name names but somebody let the balloons fly and I was like wow, we had one job today and we failed.

Ann: Well I have been working on this project where I am doing a lot of reporting with my audio equipment and interviewing a lot of people which is very nerve-wracking because technical skills. But also I'm reminded again of how it is in fact the opposite skill set of podcasting or opinion writing. Essentially it's your job to listen really carefully and process and ask questions and really not your job to butt in and offer lengthy opinions about the world. You're kind of more of a receiver than a giver in that case. And I'm like oh my god, I'm back in giver mode and I don't have opinions about anything. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I love it. I love it.

Ann: Anyway what are we talking about this week?

Aminatou: Wow. First of all I know that people are going to hear this in advertising but we really need to give ginadelvac.com a huge shout-out.

Ann: Holy cow, ginadelvac.com looks beautiful. Let me hit you with the headline: Gina got a website and it is gorgeous.

Aminatou: Thank you Squarespace. Free promo. [Laughs]

Ann: Also thank you Gina for giving the world this beautiful example of what a personal website should be. It has an incredible FAQ section so if anyone listening has ever emailed the CYG inbox to ask a question about our tech stuff, about how to get started in the industry, you know, your kind of 101 producer questions, Gina has put them all on her website. It's an incredible resource.

Aminatou: I know. Now I'm worried. What are we going to do ads on?

(3:52)

Ann: I know. It's like -- well I won't lie, I looked at the upcoming ads and Squarespace hasn't bought an ad for the near future so I'm like this is a freebie/an ad for ginadelvac.com.

Aminatou: Never mind. Never mind. We'll focus our efforts on Aminatou.com.

Ann: Listen, I didn't want to bring this up but that is our next area of focus as a family.

Aminatou: Listen, it's been a long time coming. It has been a long time coming and I finally know what I want out of a website so I'm going to make it happen.

Ann: Does this have to do with you writing your bio and your anxiety about writing a bio?

Aminatou: I'm hanging up. Goodbye. [Laughter] It was nice knowing you. Almost ten years run. Friendship, this was great. I love you. No hard feelings. Peace out.

Ann: But that is a common anxiety, P.S. Very common.

Aminatou: I already hung up. I already hung up. I'm not here. [Laughs]

Ann: Ugh.

Aminatou: I mean, Ann, for as long as you've known me writing my bio has been the biggest anxiety-giving exercise.

Ann: You don't like to be labeled and pigeonholed?

Aminatou: Well I don't think that it's that as much as it is like what the fuck am I doing with my life, you know? Like it all sounds great until you have to put it down on paper and you're like oh god, I do too much and nothing at all at the same time. You know what I mean?

Ann: Wow.

Aminatou: But the thing about it that's great is my life's kind of coming into focus. So I was like oh, I have a bio now. [Laughs]

Ann: Oh, I can make a website now.

Aminatou: Right. I'm like that shit only took, hmm, when did I graduate college? '07? Eleven years. Thank you.

Ann: Let's be real, you've had many, many, many websites, just none of them the kind of personal bio type website.

Aminatou: Totally. I mean totally, totally, totally. I am super into it so we'll figure it out and it'll be fine.

Ann: I have to tell you I recently . . . so a million years ago on my website I had a section that was essentially just shout-outs to my friends and collaborators. It was a million years ago when my website was just like a Tumblr page. Then it kind of went away when I re-did my website on our advertiser platform that shall not be named because they're not paying us for this episode. [Laughter]

(6:05)

Aminatou: Cold. Oh, I'm on annfriedman.com. Look at this shit!

Ann: So I made a section of people I work with and other people who are pals whose services I recommend. And it was a long time coming but it feels really, really good. It's like I realize that it is kind of dumb to be like "I am so excited about a new page on my website where I link to my friends." But honestly it is a really nice Shine Theory practice to say . . .

Aminatou: Ann, this website is so good! You put all your media hits on here.

Ann: Girl.

Aminatou: What?

Ann: Yes.

Aminatou: Girl, can I pay you to make my website?

Ann: I mean . . .

Aminatou: What's your rate?

Ann: Let's talk about this offline. I'm not going to quote my rate -- quote my personal website rate because it's too high for anyone who isn't a BFF to afford me. Basically you have to pay me in love. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Listen Ann, I'm coming into a bit of money soon, a.k.a. CYG is about to pay me. What can I do for you? [Laughs]

Ann: Oh my god. Anyway, so all I have to say is I would love your recommendations page because I know you are . . . you're the person I contact when I need a new piece of technology, when I need a new face mask. You are already queen of recs and so I'm like you have connected me with people like Jackie Boltick who does my newsletter stuff that's amazing, so many good people. My number one request for the new Aminatou.com is a recommendations page that lives permanently.

Aminatou: You know, might be a page, might could be a newsletter. We'll talk about it offline.

Ann: Hey.

Aminatou: Oooh.

Ann: Wow, I'm salivating. Okay, what's really going on?

Aminatou: Okay, Ann, where do we even start? If you are following the news you know all about our government's horrific, horrific, horrific immigration policies that seem to change day-to-day. As in all things typically Trump administration we don't know what the truth is. We do not know who is in charge. They don't know anything about policy. And true to form many people get hurt.

(8:12)

Ann: That is why we are not going to go deep on policy stuff that's happening because I'm sure it will all be different by the time people are listening to this. But suffice to say the headline is extreme racism and bigotry leading to the lives of people rightfully seeking refuge and asylum being totally ripped apart. That is like the headline. I'm sorry to say that's the headline no matter what the policy change is between now and when this episode comes out.

Aminatou: Ugh, Ann. But you know the thing is in also true Trump fashion he always finds somebody to take the fall for him. And so in this case the face of family separation is a white woman who you may or may not know. Her name is Kirstjen Nielsen and she's the homeland security secretary. This is the woman who's been enforcing that -- I'm making the biggest air quotes -- "zero-tolerance" policy of separating children from their families at the border. The media's been really portraying all of this as it's a women's issue, like if you're a mom you should care about it. All of the former living first ladies came out opposing it including Melania, you know? Which sidebar, Ann, don't you think that the foreign-born first lady, this would be the perfect cause for her is immigration and children?

Ann: Maybe she's just . . .

Aminatou: In better times.

Ann: Maybe she's just hunting for another immigration campaign's logo that she can hijack and report that she can hijack before she comes out and actually says something substantive about this and truly takes action. I mean also sidebar, like speaking of women adjacent to the president, like Ivanka once again "working" -- big air quotes -- behind-the-scenes on this issue. Hmm.

(9:58)

Aminatou: And always posting pictures of her children and not reading the room, right? It's like please don't post pictures of how much you love your kids and you're holding them. Other people at the border cannot be afforded that and it seems cruel. And so if you've been watching the news and the briefings like me you have been dismayed that it's once again women who are made to explain this. Sarah Huckabee Sanders, she of the smokey eye, and this woman Kirstjen Nielsen. And here they are getting angry with the press and it's so not lost on me that it's so easy to put white ladies in this position to basically be the face of white supremacy and make it really palatable.

Here are two mothers. Like, you know, Christian women. If they think it's fine then it's fine for everybody. And honestly, you know, I'm at the point where I'm not even angry at this. I am really genuinely sad for them because I don't know if they understand the grift, you know? Like what's going on here.

Ann: Yeah. That is true. I mean also there's a thing going on where I am happy to see the very warranted outrage about these atrocities -- I mean they're atrocities, right? And human rights violations that are happening at the US/Mexico border. That is a good thing. But I've been thinking about how the fact that to really bring this to a head it had to do with family separation and the way children are being interned and obviously that is bad. But it kind of reminds me how in the abortion conversation it's like abortion -- shouldn't it be legal for survivors of rape and incest, right? It's kind of like who are the pure, blameless people here? And in fact everyone seeking asylum is a blameless person, right? It's not like they're adults in this situation, or criminals . . .

(11:42)

Aminatou: Right. Asylum is legal -- it's legal immigration. Get it together.

Ann: Exactly. So while I am . . . this is a hard thing to articulate. I mean I guess nuance, not that hard for listeners of this podcast. I know you can handle it. But, you know, the nuance that is to say "Look, it is horrible what is happening to kids. We should all be outraged about that and working to stop it" while also saying if the policy of family separation ends this is still a huge fucking problem and it is not okay to treat asylum seekers and other immigrants like criminals and use de-humanizing language about them. It's like don't create hierarchy of types of immigrants in the same way that we create a hierarchy about who's worthy of accessing reproductive health? Or who's worthy of exercising any fundamental right?

Aminatou: Right, you know? And also don't lie about it.

Ann: Yes. Yes.

Aminatou: The truth is . . . you know, there's honestly a world in which these people all come out and they're like "Hello, we hate brown people. We do not want them crossing the border and we're cracking down on them because we're tired of having too many Guatemalans and Salvadorans and Mexicans in America. Here's what's going on." Because that is the true intent, you know? A lot of people have been watching these horrific videos and listening to audio of children crying and so many people are like who would want that? The truth is there are many people who are really happy about this. This is what they voted for. They're not surprised this is happening. It's like watching brown children get torn away from their parents, that was their plan because they hate immigration or they hate a certain kind of immigration.

The other thing about this too that is so upsetting to me is so many people are saying "This is not America. Is this America now?" And it's like wow, way to have a very ahistorical view of what America is. America has been tearing apart children from their parents since before slavery, you know what I mean?

Ann: Yeah, and we will link to some resources about this. Native people, Africans brought to this country in chains, like lots and lots of people. Yeah.

(13:45)

Aminatou: Yeah. It happens over and over again so we've been doing this for a long time. And the playbook is always, always, always, always the same. But in true Trump fashion it's like incompetence meets bigotry and what are the results? The results are we have thousands of kids who have been separated from their parents and frankly who might never be reunited with their parents because these people never have a plan. And it's also I think about all the women who've come out this week, like all of these right-wing women like Laura Ingraham and Ann Coulter who are saying these camps are summer camp or Ann Coulter saying the children are child actors.

Ann: Ugh, the worst Ann.

Aminatou: You know? The worst Ann. Oh my god. I already told my Ann Coulter story on this podcast. That woman is 100% a paid crisis actor. This was the plan all along. But it's like I watch all of these women talk all of this big talk and as of recording the podcast today Trump has made a fool of all of them. They went to the mat for this policy and then today he sent an executive order, you know, "reuniting parents with their children." We'll see what that means. Nobody knows if it's effective or whatever. But it's like I look at these women and I'm like why do you go over and over to the mat for a lot of these men?

And this is something that Rebecca Traister has written about so many times and I finally -- I have fully metabolized this. The main grift of hetero-patriarchy is it divides people by offering them incentives and pitting them against each other. The incentive that white hetero-patriarchy offers to these women is whiteness and they fall for it every single time. You know, and this goes back to so many conversations that we've had on the show about just like what are these white ladies doing? And it's like oh my goodness, you're falling for it every single time. Your Kellyanne Conways, your Hope Hicks, your Kirstjen Nielsens, your Ivanka Trump. Name them. And they're fools. I am so outraged about it that the despair has become sadness now because I don't know how we break the cycle. It's so cruel and it's so systematically -- it puts vulnerable people at even more risk and it is so unnecessary.

(16:08)

Ann: Yeah. And also I mean it's not just the history of kind of large-scale atrocities against groups of people that this country's perpetrated but our friend Jorge Rivas has an article that we'll link to where he's talking about all the ways in which Democratic leaders' policies about immigration paved the way for what's happening at the border right now. All of which is to say, not to get too Fox News chyron about this, but there is complicity from a lot of elected officials when it comes to this in terms of the language used about immigrants, in terms of the prison-like conditions that we place people who are legally seeking asylum in. And, you know, this is not like oh yeah, like in June 2018 this issue popped up. No. It's not just a long history of overt racism and family separation; it's also a super-unsavory history about immigration policy in general even from some of the people who are now coming out and saying this is wrong.

Think about how powerful it would be for some of those leaders to say -- for Barack Obama to be like "Guess what? This is really, really horrible. This should not be happening and I am really sorry about the policies my administration put into place that laid some of the groundwork for this." Can you imagine what that would be like?

Aminatou: I know. Literally the 2014 surge that we had with immigration coming from Central America and the way the left dealt with that like it was fine. No, this stuff has been happening on everybody's watch and it is not about one side is better than the other. It's like at this point are you colluding with white supremacy or are you not? And we all do to some varying degree but I am so frustrated. It's like every time I'm like wow, really? This is what's happening? There's literally children in camps separated from their parents. It's 2018. People are waiting for it to get bad and it's like no, no, it's already bad. All of the signs are here and we're living through it.

(18:15)

Ann: Yeah. It's here. It's real. What are you going to wake up and do about it? And if you don't have an answer to that question then oof, like that is the true moments of being lost right? The panic of I'm only going to look at the Internet and I don't have any capacity to do a thing. I think the number one goal is to not get there. The goal is to always be like there is a thing to do. It is that bad that doing nothing is not an option.

Aminatou: Right. Any time -- like somebody asked me recently what are we supposed to be doing? I'm like keep your eyes open and also read about history. History, it is repeating itself. It is happening. The news is so alarming. So, you know, if you're paying attention in Italy for example they have a new extreme right-wing government. Like no surprise. We are living in this moment of just intense right-wing backlash. The interior minister basically came out and says that they're going to start a census for the Roma community that's been living in Italy. If you know anything about European history you know that racial laws were introduced in 1938, and if you know what 1938 is, it's like hello? Fascism. These things are just -- they're happening all over the world and they're all connected. There's a reason that having the moronic president that we have and the dangerous president that we have enables all of this other right-wing or fascist or whatever you want to call it sentiment to rise because they all think that it's acceptable again.

(19:50)

And it's happening. You know, and you're like "Well, I'm not part of the Roma community. That doesn't affect me." It's like no, no, read the history books. This is truly how it starts. And by the time they get to you you will have no moral leg to stand on.

Ann: Direct message to Kirstjen Nielsen.

Aminatou: I know. Well on June 30th all around the country -- this country, the United States -- there are going to be marches to mobilize against family separation. If you wore a pink hat, you made all sorts of funny signs for the march in January and you showed up for the women's march or whatever you need to show up for this because this is very, very, very important. It's important that people know that we're not going to stand for this. It is truly shocking. It is not surprising but it is shocking. It shocks the conscience, and I just like -- I cannot believe it.

Ann: Yeah. And also just keep writing and calling your representatives. Clue into what is happening in the midterms. I'm sorry to be so broken record about this. Shout-out to listener Meredith who tweeted at us. Donate, protest, midterm elections is the new gym, tan, laundry.

Aminatou: [Laughs] I love that. Also you know I'm in a very deep Flo Kennedy whole right now.

Ann: Ugh, what better hole to be in than a Flo Kennedy hole?

Aminatou: I'm telling you the Flo Kennedy hole is great. Shout-out to Rebecca Traister who is my inspiration for everything but she is the reason I'm in this hole. She shared with me this incredible Flo Kenny quote. I truly -- like I need this on a tote, on a sweater, on everything. It's where she says "Freedom is like taking a bath. You've got to keep doing it every day." And I was like you know what? Thank you. You don't take a shower one time and you're like "I'm clean forever." [Laughs] It's like no, freedom is hard work Ann. It sounds so dumb but it is like day in, day out hard work.

(21:42)

Ann: Yeah. And I have to say that is the only way though, like the mentality of there is no place we're trying to get to. I mean there are definitely improvements we want to make but it is not like we will not have achieved success unless XYZ happens. That's not the way this works. Basically it's just like get up, do something to make the world more just every day or in your own way through your work or through your hobbies or through your protests, whatever, then get up the next day again as part of your routine. I hope everyone went out and . . .

Aminatou: Gym, tan, laundry. [Laughs]

Ann: Exactly. Oh my god.

Aminatou: I know, but you know, the other thing too I think is to really think about it in terms of generational change, or what does Gina call it? Plate tectonics? [Laughs]

Ann: Oh my god, geological time. Yes.

Aminatou: Yes, Gina's always like geological time. It's like if you think about what we're up against, I don't know, like white hetero-patriarchy nonsense, those dudes had like, I don't know, a solid 200 years on us? So when people are like "Is this shit working?" I'm like "Get back to me in 150 years and then we can decide if it's working or not." You know what I mean? This stuff takes a lot of time. But Ann, can I read you three of my favorite other Flo Kennedy quotes?

Ann: Please.

Aminatou: Flo Kennedy is a quote machine. Also if you don't know who Flo Kennedy is there is no shame. Google her and get your whole life. I'm not even going to ruin it for you but she is seriously in the feminist canon. And here's the best part: she had a public access show that is pretty much all available on the Internet and it's like all I'm watching. Important black lady feminist. Three important Flo Kennedy quotes. "The biggest sin is sitting on your ass." Thank you Flo Kennedy. "Don't agonize, organize." Thank you Flo Kennedy. "Sweetie, if you're not living on the edge then you're taking up space." I love it.

Ann: I love that too. And also where are you taking up space? Are you taking up space while screaming fuck you to the president on Capitol Hill? Awesome. Are you taking up space by taking your third nap of the day and just mindlessly scrolling Instagram? Maybe not awesome. You know, even though maybe you need three naps a day and that can also be okay if you make a phone call too. That's the sort of thing that like -- different types of space. What type of space are you taking up?

(24:02)

Aminatou: I know. I did an Instagram story of the "Sweetie, if you're not living on the edge then you're taking up space." Somebody DMed me that it was a Nickelback lyric and I've been afraid to look it up. [Laughs]

Ann: Oh my god. Oh my god, I'm looking it up right now.

Aminatou: And I was like hmm . . . I was like I don't think I can do this to myself.

Ann: I'm looking it up right now. Oh wow, I'm sad to report I can confirm this is a Nickelback lyric.

Aminatou: [Laughs] I love it though, oh my god. That's amazing.

Ann: Wow, who knew the Venn diagram of Flo Kennedy and Nickelback?

Aminatou: Listen, it's a good quote.

Ann: All right.

Aminatou: Woosah. Bringing it back.

[Music and Ads]

(29:15)

Ann: Let's maybe talk about something else.

Aminatou: Well, listen . . .

Ann: I'm worried about being someone who just screams like "Vote, protest, donate" over and over and over again.

Aminatou: I mean vote, protest, donate, and listen to Beyonce. Is that fair?

Ann: Ugh, okay, well yes. Perfect transition. How are you so good at this? Are you a professional podcaster?

Aminatou: Listen, Ann, I host how many podcasts? One, two, three. Three-and-a-half. Look at that.

Ann: Okay, hit me with the listen to Beyonce part.

(29:45)

Aminatou: I'm going to be perfectly honest: I have not listened to the Carter Project yet. One because I don't have the time. I'm like dealing with menopause. When I'm ready for it I'm ready for it. But also, yeah, I just haven't had the space. I've seen all the GIFs of them at the Louvre and that's amazing. The thing that made me really happy about that, again like I said I have not listened to the album or anything. But the thing that I loved about seeing Jay and Bey in a museum, it's just I love this connection between capitalism and black art and having more black people in ultra-white spaces and that's great. But in terms of like the Carters marriage, you know, I don't have the emotional capacity for that right now. I'm so tired.

Ann: Yeah. I mean the online conversation about have we forgiven Jay-Z, I'm like I don't know. To me I kind of opted out of that conversation and fully opted in . . .

Aminatou: Do we have to forgive Jay-Z? I'm like he's not my husband. I don't care.

Ann: That's what I mean, I've opted out of that conversation. I just support Beyonce. That's different than I have to feel any way about Jay-Z in my opinion. But then sometimes there's a collaborative project and yeah.

Aminatou: Right. And you're like ugh, Beyonce and him over there. What am I supposed to do with this? My thing with Jay-Z is this: I have long known that Beyonce is the best rapper in that family and is the best rapper period. So as somebody who has suffered through a lot of Jay-Z rapping on Beyonce songs I just didn't have the stomach for it right then.

Ann: I hear you.

Aminatou: But I'm sure that one of these days I will make time for it. The thing that's so fascinating to me about those two is how, you know, for the sake of art and I guess capitalism they put so much of their marriage on display and it both scares me and thrills me, you know? I'm just like hmm, is this necessary? But I guess it's working.

(31:45)

Ann: I have to say, so Brittney Luse who hosts The Nod which is an amazing podcast you should be listening to if you don't.

Aminatou: Yes, listen to The Nod.

Ann: Was tweeting about Beyonce and Jay's relationship in terms of their collaboration and the fact that they are creative problems. And it's funny because I have, due to some things in my personal history, a real aversion to the idea of having the same career and the same -- very similar career goals to someone I am romantically partnered with. And it's like this is one of those cases where . . . I mean I don't know, I'm very interested in that question. And I suspect that especially in heterosexual couples it's pretty clear whose creative career gets to kind of come first or go first when it comes time to taking collective risks and expending collective resources in the couple. Like how many people do I know who are a pair of aspiring filmmakers, a pair of aspiring novelists, or a pair of people who both want to start the same kind of company or something like that? And I watch so many times the pattern repeat that she's like "Okay, I'm just going to take this day job so we can have insurance while we invest in you taking this leap first." And I'm like I'm watching very closely to see if the leap comes for you, and sometimes it does. The investment goes both ways and they take turns and it truly is equitable. But not everyone is the Knowles-Carters when it comes time to separate how you are doing -- how you are furthering both of your goals when you want the same things.

Aminatou: Maybe everyone should be the Knowles-Carters though.

Ann: I mean I don't know. For me it is an interesting question because as someone who is not partnered with someone who is a writer now but was when I was a lot younger and a lot more insecure in my career it was hard not to measures myself against or make different choices because the person I was in a relationship with was a man who wanted the same things that I wanted. Like I truly feel like I downplayed my ambitions for myself because it was too much to think about going for something that he was also gunning for and failing, or maybe even succeeding. Like let's be real, this stuff runs deep.

(34:00)

And so I don't know. Brittany is like -- Brittany says, Brittany tweeted "It's rare to see a pairing like theirs in terms of both partners being extremely talented and successful on their own while cross-pollinating a good deal too." And I agree but it's kind of like we're seeing them at the top. Like they did not get together when they were struggling and trying to make it, you know?

Aminatou: I mean they collaborated then. I think that -- I guess what's interesting to me about the pairing is they are both kind of at a level where they can only be challenged by themselves and by each other if they choose to be. It's like you survey the land and you're like oh. For Jay-Z to be like "Oh, Beyonce is probably a better artist than me," I'm like, you know, not to give him too much credit but I'm like wow. I'm always shocked when men acknowledge their -- or in hetero relationships when men understand sometimes the partner's better. Who am I kidding? All the time the lady partner is better.

Ann: Jay-Z has eyes and ears? Amazing. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I know, Jay-Z has eyes and ears. But you know what I mean? It does . . . it's like look at all of Jay-Z's peers. What are they doing? Kanye is literally, you know, he's like a Calabasas shoemaker.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: Drake, god bless him.

Ann: The cobbler of Calabasas.

Aminatou: That's not happening. Yeah, you know what I mean? He's the other cobbler of Calabasas. You know, like Nas? Who cares? The album just dropped. Literally no one is listening to it. You know, it's just like who is his competition? He married his competition. Artistically at least Jay-Z's last album, I was like oh, he's an older statesman of rap now where it's like oh, wow, Drake is still rapping about girls that he gave rides to at Howard University.

Ann: [Laughs]

(35:44)

Aminatou: Kanye, god knows what he's rapping about. And here is Jay-Z with the personal growth, you know? Like on the album talking about wealth building and talking about going to therapy and talking about his mom being a lesbian. And there was something about that for me where no matter how I feel about him in the marriage and he's ruined many a Beyonce song for me I was like wow, this . . . it's not possible without a degree of openness on what your place in the world is and how you relate to your partner and how you can open yourself to the world. Man, now I'm talking myself into listening to this album just because I want to know.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: But it's fascinating to me. And I've been thinking also a lot about Marty Ginsburg, you know, husband of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And if you haven't seen the Notorious RBG documentary you're a fool. 1) It's about Notorious RBG. 2) I have a great cameo in it. Tooting my own horn! Someone put me in more documentaries. But thinking about a man like Marty Ginsburg who truly was not threatened by his wife and loved his wife and the truth of it is she would not have been on the Supreme Court if it hadn't been for him and how he was so supportive, we don't get enough of those narratives where it's like oh, it actually is possible to be in hetero pairings this way. Wow, hetero people are very boring and have too many problems. This is why queering the world is the way.

Ann: Oh, 100%.

Aminatou: Yeah, going back to dumb hetero people problems it's what are the obstacles that stand in-between that? And a lot of times it's a lack of imagination. It's, you know, the scam of hetero-patriarchy and how that works. But it is possible. It is possible to have these kinds of pairings and we're seeing them. We just don't talk about them enough.

Ann: Yeah, it's true. And I think the other thing that I don't . . . I mean as with everything Beyonce there's so many levels happening here. It's like yeah, this is the perfect opportunity to consider what's really happening in terms of equity in heterosexual relationships but it's also particularly with the Apeshit video it's like what's happening when you think about the people who are making the most world-changing and canonical black art today? And what does it look like to look at those people inside a space that has been historically, and in the modern day when you think about modern galleries and things like that, super, super white?

(38:15)

So it's like I don't know. I mean we could've devoted -- I feel like we could've devoted an entire podcast to creative partnership and kind of like the issues with their relationship and what we all take from that and what we all put onto it. And then there's also this whole other layer of like them together presenting like this is our united front take on capitalism and this is what it means to hear Beyonce say "Pay me in equity." Great advice Beyonce. You know, depending on the person you're in partnership with. And then also just this commentary about how art is consumed -- art as a luxury good and also art as a powerful cultural force simultaneously. That is where I was like the little mushroom cloud head explosion emoji while I was watching this video just thinking about even trying to pick apart some of these layers. So I mean it is really a gift for people who like to think about hard questions and interesting historic questions. Yeah.

Aminatou: Yeah. It's just -- it's beautiful. It's just beautiful to see. I still remember the first time I went to The Louvre. I know the importance that it has. And museums are just not spaces that feel black ever but black artists run shit and it's just . . . it's so I guess, I don't know, I'm getting emotional. I think that what is always so striking to me is how no matter how jaded you are about these things seeing the visuals of it is always arresting.

(39:45)

Ann: Yeah, I mean it's incredibly powerful. And it's like in a way -- I also keep thinking about the ways that other . . . lots of other activists have pointed out the things this video is pointing out implicitly. You know, you see protests at The Whitney and in terms of who is included and how and which art by which artist is selected and how it's portrayed. And you see historical things like -- you see the Gorilla Girls making very pointed commentary that is literally all out there. Like look, the women in this museum are naked in the paintings; they are not the ones holding the paint brushes. Things like that. But this video is like there is . . . there is this new level of commentary that is also a piece of art in and of itself where I'm -- like I said I am still processing and I am reading and will link to some art historians and critics who are processing what it means to see these questions asked while also presenting a whole visual language that comes from this tradition that has historically been locked out of these spaces. It's amazing.

Aminatou: Ugh. You know, it is both simultaneously depressing and amazing that in this century we still get new imagery like this, you know?

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: I was thinking that the whole time I was watching Black Panther. I'm just like here is this fun movie and then just this visceral reaction of like wow, I watch this type of movie all the time and it's the first time I'm seeing an explicitly black universe. It almost is like rewiring your brain. You know, it's like we have all these artists who are creating new visuals for a language and themes we've known for so long and it's so powerful.

Ann: It's true. And so once again thank you Beyonce.

Aminatou: Shout out to Beyonce. Shout out to Black Panther. Shout out Ava DuVernay. Shout out to the OWN Network. Thank you Oprah. Shout out Mara Brock Akil. Yeah, I'm getting really emotional weirdly. It's definitely menopause but also definitely, you know, black people are amazing. It's just a lot. Like we have come so far and we have gone nowhere at the same time. I just, yeah, I'm such a jaded person and then a Beyonce GIF at the Louvre will stop me dead in my tracks.

(42:05)

Ann: It's true. I spent a lot of time after I watched this video trying to figure out how I could embed a sound file into my invoices of Beyonce asking for her check. Like how can I make this very powerful demand? How do I translate this into trying to realize my own goals and hold the rest of the world accountable?

Aminatou: Oh my gosh, okay. I 100% talked myself into listening to it so I will go listen to it.

Ann: I cannot wait to receive the text as you process.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Oh my gosh. Beyonce, look at you making us like your husband all over again.

Ann: Or at least covet his suits which I very much do. I am like I am on a double-breasted pastel mission now.

Aminatou: Oh my god, Ann, I got fitted for some bespoke suits the other day.

Ann: [Gasps] I'm crying. Are you kidding me?

Aminatou: Transformative experience. And I mean just the -- I just got measured. The suits are not . . . they will be made in bespoke time, so I don't know, like ten years from now I'll wear them. But can I tell you it was like a very touching and intimate situation. So I got fitted for a couple suits by this woman Emily Meyer who runs a great bespoke suit company and she is really rad. But it was just something about 1) bespoke is not cheap, let's be real about it, right? Where I was like okay, this is an investment in myself. And going back to our conversation about bodies a couple weeks ago, you know, it is this very vulnerable place where you're getting measured and really your body is being assessed for what will fit.

Ann: Right. We spend a lot of time trying to not quantify our bodies and so it's kind of counter-intuitive. Yeah.

(43:55)

Aminatou: Right, exactly. It's like you have not lived until someone measures your neck because I'm also getting some shirts made. And to Emily's amazing credit it was an incredibly positive experience. Like walking through picking the fabrics, talking about the styles, you know? Like how many buttons do you want? So many things in suits that I never realized were happening like what kind of vent do you want? You know, just things. And having this woman that is a complete stranger to me measure me and not make me -- and it was a really empowering moment as opposed to just this like ugh, nobody wants to go shopping for real. That was a revelation for me.

Ann: Ugh, I love that and you are . . . as soon as we hang up I'm adding this to my goals list of get a bespoke suit because as you know I also have a tough bod to fit. I'm very excited about this.

Aminatou: Right. And the thing is when I emailed her I was like "Hey, here's a ridiculous suit I want to get made but I don't know if you make my size." And she responded. She was like "It's bespoke. We can make your size."

Ann: We make every size, yeah.

Aminatou: We can make every size, you know? And the thing is it truly is an investment in yourself and in your body, you know? And like I'm not going to gloss over the price. There's a reason that tailoring costs money. 1) It's a skill. 2) It is beautiful and painstaking and to your own measurements. Like you get what you paid for. But it was, man, I'm telling you it was such a posi experience. I left feeling on like cloud 100 it was so great. I was like okay, now I'm addicted to bespoke suits.

Ann: Okay. Cloud 100 is definitely where we have to end this podcast because we're not going up from there. That's the best.

Aminatou: We're not going up from there. I'm going to go listen to the Carters or the Carter-Knowles. [Laughs]

Ann: Listen.

Aminatou: As I'm going to call this album, Beyonce always . . . I'm telling you always one step forward, two steps back.

Ann: I mean we haven't forgotten about the Mrs. Carter tour. We know.

Aminatou: We have not forgotten. We have not not forgotten. But anyway I hope you have a beautiful night and you do something nice for yourself and I'm counting the days until I see you next.

Ann: Aww, same.

Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.

Ann: See you on the Internet until then.

Aminatou: See you on the Internet, boo-boo.