Hot Bods

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6/1/18 - (Hint: you're already in one.) We talk about all the ways we’re feeling good in our bodies this summer; why body positivity is about working to make the world better for ALL kinds of bodies, not just your own; our favorite instagram accounts from people with a range of hot bods; microdosing, psychedelics, and other ways we get out of our heads and into our bodies.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Ad sales: Midroll

Photo: Rochelle Brock @fatleopard.jpeg

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TRANSCRIPT: HOT BODS

[Ads]

(1:05)

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda we're talking about all the ways we're feeling good in our bodies this summer; why every body is a beach body; why positivity is about working to make the world better for all kinds of bodies, not just your own; why our favorite Instagram accounts are from people with a range of hot bods; plus microdosing psychedelics and other ways we get out of our heads and into our bodies.

[Theme Song]

(2:00)

Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman.

Ann: How're you doing?

Aminatou: I'm hearing some motorcycle noises so I'm going to close this door.

Ann: Your biker gang is rolling through?

Aminatou: My biker gang is rolling through. It's my menopausal ladies.

Ann: Oh my god, what would be the name of your menopausal bike gang?

Aminatou: Oh my god, what would we be called? The Perimenopauses?

Ann: Like Tail Pipe Hot Flashes or something?

Aminatou: Tail Pipe Hot Flashes. [Laughs] I can't with you.

Ann: Can we say we're going to talk about bods today?

Aminatou: Yeah. Listen, today we're just going to talk about bods on the pod.

Ann: Bods on the pod. I love it. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah. How's your bod doing?

Ann: Listen, you know, my bod is pretty good. I feel like the joys and struggles of my bod have been pretty consistent for a long time so it's like, you know, it's not new. It's maybe somewhat seasonal. If I'm totally honest the bod thing that is forefront in my mind today is I've been thinking about getting bangs again but it's . . .

Aminatou: Whew, dicey.

Ann: I know, but we're on the cusp of summer. Why does my brain want what my body is not going to want very shortly? That's what's happening.

Aminatou: Ann, you love to play with the fire of bangs. But I feel like you're in a good place so I support this.

Ann: I don't know. I think the heart wants what it wants and I'm probably going to do it but also get back to me in August when they're stuck to my forehead and I'm like "What have I done?"

Aminatou: What kind of fringe do you want?

Ann: Oh, you know, a messy fringe that's probably going to like -- you know, we're not talking about a heavy bang which as you know I've fallen into that trap post-breakup before. I'm talking about something that's a relaxed kind of longer parted bang.

Aminatou: You should do it like the girls in the Kpop videos do it then you put like a hot roller under your bang.

Ann: Oh my god, hang on, I'm Googling. Okay, I'm looking at this and I'm like simultaneously yes, this would be great, and also this seems like a horror during summer. Both of these things are true.

(4:05)

Aminatou: I mean I think doing anything new to your hair or your face during summer is a gamble.

Ann: It's true. How's your bod? What's going on?

Aminatou: You know, my bod is like -- we're doing okay. You know, me, America's hardest partying cancer patient.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: You know, I feel mostly good. It's just strange to say because I don't think I've been able to say that for a long time. Cancer is a joke. We kicked that.

Ann: Yes.

Aminatou: But menopause is a beast. This is definitely going to be the worst summer of my life I already know because people keep saying that it's hot outside and I was like "But I've felt this hot since January. What are you talking about?"

Ann: Oh no.

Aminatou: So it's just that thing where I cannot tell what the weather outside is like but I'm sweating a lot. But you know, mostly I don't know, I'm proud of my bod. You know, we overcame a lot this year.

Ann: God, what did you say earlier that I declared was a poem about your body? And now I forget.

Aminatou: Oh my god, I don't remember.

Ann: It was something about . . .

Aminatou: It was a good haiku.

Ann: It was a beautiful haiku about how your body is going to see you through this life or something like that. I don't even know.

Aminatou: It's true. Everybody is at a different place with their body but as somebody who is very body-stupid for many reasons it's basically surgery that forced me to confront what my body looked like and what it felt like and what it is. So I feel like I'm just learning my own body for the first time. And, you know, I'm just like oh, you are a very good machine to me. I treated you very badly and you still got me from point A to point B. Good job, body.

Ann: It is true. When you think about it in those terms I have never been one of those my body is a temple people. And it is truly shocking what the bod has been able to do for me despite my treatment of it.

(5:55)

Aminatou: Well yeah. The thing too that's funny is because summer is here there's all this summer anxiety about showing your body like the beach body phenom which we've already discussed on the show. If you have a body and you're going to the beach you have a beach body. We're just kind of in this phase where anything that a woman who is bigger than a size six does is like brave now. And . . .

Ann: You're talking about I love my curvy wife?

Aminatou: Right. Like I love my curvy body, I love my curves or whatever. And I've always rolled my eyes at that because I'm like I'm fat and I'm okay calling myself fat. I have been fat for a long time. And there is something kind of like empowerment 101 about being stuck talking about bodies, you know? It's always like the people who are so into their body feminism, you're just like name two other issues and they struggle. And there is something that is kind of very self-involved, you know, about always -- it's like your struggle is your body. I have really softened on that. The truth is your body is political and also we're bombarded by messages that tell us our bodies are garbage all day. So I'm just opening my eyes to that.

Ann: We're also bombarded by messages from actual humans who cross our paths, especially in warmer months when we are wearing less clothes because of the aforementioned heat. And for me there really is a divide between on one hand feeling 100% I feel great. This is the body I've had for a long time. Like I said earlier it doesn't really change very much. But the need for that affirmation comes in when strangers are literally stopping me to ask me questions about it or comment on it. Like that is a thing that happens that I'm like oh, it does require a certain amount of resolve to stay in the head space of my body is great and I'm great with it. And it's hard for me to hold those two ideas in my head, right? Like the I feel great and also I have to not overt mantra style repeat it but recognizing the challenges that the world also presents me. Like mostly men in the world, let's be real.

(8:04)

Aminatou: Yeah, men in the world, women . . . I find with a lot of fat things women are very quick to police you, the way that you dress and the way that you are. Like this summer I'm like I don't care! I'm showing my arms and my back fat and that's not an issue. I was on the forefront of pioneering the fatkini. Like there are very few things . . .

Ann: You are a fatkini pioneer.

Aminatou: I am a fatkini pioneer, you know what I'm saying? And I have always for me personally found at least that it is always women who police the way that I look or predominantly police the way that I look, like loudly at least. That dynamic has always fascinated me too where I'm like wow, if somebody is not harming you why do you need to talk to them? You know my thing about all of the isms like racism, all of the isms, they're basically just rooted in rudeness. Where I'm like if you would just shut the fuck up and keep your opinion to yourself I wouldn't know that about you.

Ann: It's true.

Aminatou: There's just no need to comment. Nobody is harming you. They're not asking you for your opinion. A lot of times they look flyer than you. There is no reason to tell somebody what you think about their body unsolicited.

Ann: Right. And we have talked about this at length for sure but the fact remains people are rude and it does happen. And that's what I was referring to, right? The duality of understanding that I'm comfy with this body as it exists and what it does for me and also I still have to contend with rude people making comments to me about it, those are two things that are both true.

Aminatou: That are true.

Ann: Yeah. Also P.S. boo-boo I just Googled it and the first email exchange from the two of us containing the word fatkini is from 2012. 

Aminatou: For me it's not because I'm like this brave person. It's just 1) I've never been quite in tune with my bod so it never occurred to me being fat is bad, you know? And also I'm an internally-motivated person. Who really cares what other people think? I don't know. I grew up in a culture where obsessing about your body, it was not the best thing you could do with your time. And I have definitely found the longer that I've lived in the United States the more I'm falling into the trap.

Ann: Whoa, America.

(10:20)

Aminatou: America! America, western world. But that's not to say that, you know, African people don't have intense body-shaming things or whatever. They just manifest in different ways. Like trust, Grandma Sow, my god, she will call out every part of your body that is not great. But it just manifests differently. There's also something about living in a culture where you are not the dominant color, you know? That already makes you feel like you're not part of the mainstream. So appealing to European beauty standards, that was never a game I was going to play.

Ann: Sure. Right, except when people of European descent are verbally trying to make you conform to their standards.

Aminatou: Exactly.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: What are kind of -- cheesy question, Ann, what are your self-care strategies for body-posi moments?

Ann: I mean the number one strategy, and I know we talked about this on an episode a while ago when I think someone wrote in asking about how does she deal with comments her friends make that trigger her eating disorder or like her feelings about her own body that she has worked really hard on, what do you do about that? And I think that for me the number one body-posi self-care thing I do is surround myself with women who are kind of committed to a similar ideal of body positivity which is to say that it's not only people who feel good in their bodies but also who want to help everyone with all different kinds of bodies get free and feel good in their bodies too. Like as a just general way of operating in the world. That is the number one thing I do for myself and my body is like my community which I know is not something you can buy at Sephora but is . . .

Aminatou: Are you sure though?

(12:08)

Ann: Oh my god, body-posi community in a box? [Laughs] Yeah. TBH that is a big one. I have also a few superficial things that I'm into lately but that is the number one all seasons, all times thing that I've got. What about you?

Aminatou: I do the same, you know? I surround myself with people who are body-posi but also I think that if you're going to be in a community about it you have to make a concerted effort to talk about it. You don't actually know if your friends are body-positive unless you have a discussion with them about it, you know what I mean? That's kind of a wild assumption to make. But in the realm of how social media can just bombard you with fake, thin bodies all the time I like to just follow people who have different kinds of bodies that are really good, you know? There are so many people that you can follow on social media honestly that will fucking make your day with how awesome they are and also really challenge your idea of what a conventional beauty standard is. I would say that if you're always looking on Instagram and you feel like junk you're probably following the wrong people on Instagram.

Ann: Yes, that's so true.

Aminatou: Also if you're following celebrities who are always selling, I don't know, laxative lollipops -- I'm calling you out . . .

Ann: Tummy suppressant, whatever.

Aminatou: I'm calling you out Kim Kardashian. I had to unfollow Kim the other day. Finally I have reached my limit. Me, the number one Kardashian promoter. You're a grown woman selling children laxative lollipops and your body is not a result of the product you're shilling. There is something so fundamentally not okay about that.

(13:50)

Ann: We really backed ourselves into the headline of this episode which is you hit your limit with Kim.

Aminatou: I know! I hit my limit with Kim. I'm not saying I'm not going to check into the Kardashian empire. I will be doing drive-bys, thank you very much. That's usually what I do with celebs. I'm like don't follow them. You've got to just do a drive-by every once in a while. But anyway, so the answer to not doing that is to follow some other really cool accounts. Like I love Jessamyn Stanley who we've had on the podcast who is the author of Every Body Yoga. Her account is really cool. I really love this young woman Kia Brown who started the hashtag #disabledandcute. It always leaves me feeling so awesome, like her energy is great and she writes really, really, really well about disability and accessibility issues. So you should definitely follow her on Twitter and on the Gram. Ann, do you have accounts that you follow that you like?

Ann: I have a few. Tuesday Bassen who's been on the podcast before is a designer who's branched into making and selling her own line of clothes and she is really open about the way she goes about making sure that is size-inclusive and has a really interesting approach to transparency when it comes to making things for lots of different bodies. I mean there are tons of brands that I think we've talked about before that make clothes for different body types but I like the way she thinks about it and also reflects her values and what she's doing. I love the women of She's All Fat who we've already mentioned.

Aminatou: Yes!

Ann: I love Jacob Tobia who is a very, very fierce fem-identified, non-binary person who is super fashionable. I also think that there's a side-effect to following a lot of people who are living in different bodies and having different types of experiences to yours which is to say amazing style tips, right?

Aminatou: Yeah.

Ann: I'm like my -- I feel like it'll really . . . it's very look-evolving, not just emotionally bolstering. And I have to say it's really funny the ads I get served now. Instagram is so confused about what kind of body I have because I'm not just following and liking one set of things. I do follow . . .

Aminatou: 100%.

(16:00)

Ann: Yeah. I do follow a couple of tall lady accounts, right? The few, the far between, but it's just really amusing to me when I'm like guess what? The algorithm can't track you when you're following a diversity of bodies. It has a data protection element.

Aminatou: I know! Another Instagram account I like is The Thicc, T-H-I-C-C, Thicc Gram. It's like some really sexy ladies and it's like their tagline is a no bullshit lifestyle site and I really like it. I follow this total babe of all babes Muse Gold on Instagram and she always makes my day with her style. And I just want to jump into every photo and recreate it myself.

Ann: Oh, and how could I forget Virgie Tovar?

Aminatou: Yeah, Virgie Tovar who has coined so many good CYGisms.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: And who else are we into? I'm super into Rochelle Brock who is fatleopard.jpeg. She is more of a photographer but she features photos of herself and then a lot of the photography that she's doing and it's always fun and rad. That advice that you gave, follow different kinds of people. Like open your mind and really get life tips from people who are happy. Lindy West who's written so much about how -- like one of the things that really confounds people about fat women specifically is that they can be happy.

Ann: Yes. And about how thinness and happiness are not coordinated.

Aminatou: Exactly. And I have found that to be true in my media consumption.

Ann: 100%. You know, I think that there is also a place in this conversation for really thinking about what gives you pleasure about your body. Friend of the podcast Myisha Battle who is a sex coach is really great at talking about having a really expansive view of what deriving pleasure from your body means. And so some of that is just paying attention. Like, you know, she gave me some great advice which is okay, think about the time of day or moment when you feel really great in your body. And I was like hmm, it's probably post-shower, fully moisturized. And she was like "Okay, you need to figure out how to live in that moment just a little bit longer." Like pause.

Aminatou: Yes.

(18:15)

Ann: Think about -- you know, take a little longer with that routine. Really savor it. Take a few extra minutes doing that thing that in the moment feels really good in your body and that will have a reflective effect on the rest of how you feel. And I'm like yes! I mean she does it in the context of sex and feeling sexy -- thank you for your service, Myisha -- but it is about bodies in general too.

Aminatou: I love that. Sex and feeling sexy. I mean everybody should feel sexy.

Ann: Totally. All right, on the beach, off the beach, on the street, at home, sexy everywhere.

Aminatou: Sexy everywhere.

[Music and Ads]

(21:38)

Aminatou: What else does this family do to feel sexy and relax? Well you know we smoke a lot of weed in this family.

Ann: Yeah, or eat a lot of weed really.

Aminatou: Yeah, eat a lot of weed. I've been expanding more into the CBD realm so some mouth sprays, some drops, some drops in the food. You know, I said that I was microdosing and you said that I was dosing. [Laughs]

Ann: Yeah. I was like please, there is nothing micro about your doses. I have witnessed this for years.

Aminatou: I have a big body, okay? It's different for me.

Ann: You also -- bodies are different and I truly don't believe this is one of those things that directly correlates to your body size at all. It's just you have some kind of special marijuana tolerance that is both a blessing and a curse I'm sure. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah. It's like whenever I take edibles with people and I'm like that's going to do something for you? I'm thinking specifically of those mints that we always travel with. [Laughs]

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: And then no. Figure out your dosage. But for me I was like before cancer weed was my friend. During cancer weed was even a better friend.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: And I've talked to my doctors about it and they're surprisingly cool about it. It's always great when you can find a doctor that can work with you, you know? You're like "This is what I like to do. Here's the deal." I think also just learning more about, you know, like I feel like my next step is getting more into psychedelics and I'm really looking forward to exploring that this summer. But that has also made me much more aware of my bod and where my tolerance is and kind of what my anxiety and my fears are. So I don't know, there's something very take back control of your life aspect of it.

Ann: Yeah. Did you read that article in The Cut about microdosing recently? It was called Microdosing's Moment. I can read you the thesis which is that recent reports show that millennials are drinking less and less and less interested in drugs like cocaine but in a strange turn of events they've taken up LSD and mushrooms in the way someone else might pop an Adderall. 

Aminatou: Why is that strange? First of all . . .

Ann: I don't know!

Aminatou: I'm like first of all millennials are nothing if not frugal, okay? Drinking alcohol is just money down the tubes. It is not a good investment.

Ann: I'm sorry, is LSD something affordable? This is something I don't know about.

(23:55)

Aminatou: You know, as someone who has had access to LSD I will just say the ROI on it seems great. That's my assessment. [Laughter] But also who is doing cocaine first of all? Have I told you how for a long time I, because the Sow parents did -- my parents did a lot of things wrong but they also did a lot of things right and they scared us off all the right drugs. But the thing with cocaine because I had never done it is I never understood kind of who was on cocaine until I think I moved to New York. And I was like oh, whenever somebody is very sweaty and they feel sexier than they look, you know, like they look like shit but they're acting like they look amazing, that's cocaine.

Ann: Wait, isn't that the plot of an Amy Schumer movie? Is she really just on coke the whole movie? [Laughs]

Aminatou: Oh my god, what movie? You know how I feel about that lady.

Ann: You know. You know, the new movie we have not discussed . . .

Aminatou: Ann, this is a body-posi zone so we are not discussing Amy Schumer in the body-posi zone.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah, we actually have not discussed that movie because the plot of that movie fits in very well with all the bullshit we're talking about today in the sense where Amy Schumer who is a conventionally blonde pretty lady who is -- it's like who knows her size, right? Because she always plays it up however she wants. She always claimed she was bigger than the average Hollywood size, which fair, but Amy Schumer is not bigger than the average American woman. And I think it was a couple years ago when Glamour Magazine -- yeah, I'm pretty sure it was Glamour -- like somebody put her on their plus-size sheroes whatever list and she lost her shit. So I was like listen, you have to decide. Are you curvy or are you not curvy? What are you? But also there is nothing revolutionary about living in a body that is bigger than the Hollywood body. Making people feel like you have to get hit over the head while you're, I don't know, training at the gym to feel like you're beautiful is a very fucked up lot idea.

(26:03)

Ann: Well I mean there are critics who have said this much better than I have but I do find a compelling strain of argument against it. Also that it is wrong both in the sense you have to be hit over the head to feel great but also in the sense you can just change your mind and therefore it's easier to exist in the world. It's kind of like what we were talking about earlier that there is what you can do for yourself and what's happening internally but then there are also very real forces outside you that are actively trying to make you feel like shit. And how are you dealing with those personally and systemically is a thing that's going to happen no matter how confident you feel in your heart of hearts and try to emanate outward. Like those things can both be true.

Aminatou: Right. But you also don't need a magical negro best friend at the gym to make you feel better about who you are. And that like . . . you know?

Ann: Wait. I'm crossing get magical negro friend at the gym off of my summer to-do list right now.

Aminatou: Listen, you already have me boo-boo. But, you know, it's just one of those things that I get what the message of this movie is but actually if you break it down it's more offensive than it purports to be. It's so offensive. I'm like actually you know that there are fat women who are happy with their bodies, right? You don't have to do all of this gymnastics.

Ann: Okay, but I want to go back to talking about drugs for a second.

Aminatou: Oh yeah, to the fun part. I'm so sorry we had to do this Amy Schumer aside.

Ann: That's okay. Have you been checked into Michael Pollan's book tour? He wrote a book about psychedelics that's called . . . yeah.

Aminatou: I know! Ugh. You and I have discussed this privately where we're a little bit annoyed because Ayelet Waldman wrote the book about microdosing and finding your bliss with drugs. So it's just weird. It's like I know they're not talking about exactly the same thing but it is weird to have a dude write a book about a thing that a lady just wrote about and we're all acting like this just happened.

(27:55)

Ann: Yeah. Ayelet Waldman's book from last year is called A Really Good Day: How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life. And Michael Pollan's book which is out right now is called How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence. Which I'm sorry, not a million miles apart. One of them is about kind of like a personal experience and then extrapolating out from there, but guess what? Pollan's book is also about him taking these drugs and experimenting with them as part of the story. And it's super interesting to me how this really identical topic is framed when it's a woman writer versus a man writer.

Aminatou: Yeah.

Ann: And also, okay, I have to recommend the Michael Pollan Fresh Air interview with Terry Gross if only because see how many times you can hear Terry Gross trying not to talk about her own psychedelic experiences while interviewing him.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Done. Done.

Ann: That is like the . . .

Aminatou: As soon as I hang up with you that's what I'm doing today.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: I'm really curious. Ugh, now you make me want to explore the Michael Pollan book. So Ayelet Waldman used to be I believe a public defender and so she definitely talks about in her book tour and in the book about the privilege really of being a white woman who has access to drugs.

Ann: Totally.

Aminatou: And how it is not a punishable offense for her in the way that it is for so much of the rest of America. So I really wonder if Michael Pollan will go there also because I think in the -- whenever we have these conversations about drugs it's really important to acknowledge.

Ann: Yeah. Oh, completely. An I only listened to that one Terry Gross interview with him and this was not something he went out of his way to point out. I don't know about, you're right, the book itself or in other interviews so who knows? I have my guesses about how forefront this is.

Aminatou: But I am glad that we're having more conversations about this stuff.

Ann: Yeah. And I have to say too that, you know, this is something that I know I mentioned the article in The Cut and friend of the podcast Kiana did a feminist guide to microdosing and psychedelics on Medium that we will also link to. This is the kind of thing that it's covered often as guess what? Here's a brand new thing, like this crazy idea -- and I'm air quoting that -- of taking these illicit drugs that people have done lots of jail time for selling and manufacturing and re-framing them as kind of a luxury mental health thing. But in truth this is the idea that maybe ingesting some substances and changing your brain is something that you can work with a community to figure out how to do. Maybe it's something that you can explore on your own in pretty low-key ways, hence the micro and microdosing, not something that you need to, I don't know, undertake with the help of the pharmaceutical industry. I think that is what feels transgressive about . . . like that's the way that a lot of this stuff is framed now.

Aminatou: Yeah. You know, nothing is new under the sun. Welcome back to the '70s and before that welcome back to the era the '70s people took it from. [Laughs]

Ann: Exactly. Nothing is new at all. It's just how many generations are you removed from an era where it felt mainstream?

Aminatou: I know. It is cool though that the boomers are getting into drugs. I'm like my god, maybe if you guys had done a little bit more drugs we wouldn't be where we are today.

Ann: Shout-out to all my friends' retired parents smoking weed for their anxiety.

Aminatou: I know, I love it. I love it so much.

Ann: I know we joke a lot about being stoners or whatever but I really do find CBD and THC to be wonderful tools in the arsenal of how to chill harder, you know?

Aminatou: Oh, are you kidding? I wake up with cortisol levels on 100. My entire day is how do I calm down for how hyper I am?

Ann: That's because you wake up to Rap Caviar as your alarm.

Aminatou: Okay. First of all, Ann, that was a private moment. [Laughter] Second, listen, if you don't love me at my 2007 Gucci main can you love me at my 2018 Gucci main? I don't know. Talk about somebody who has had a transformative body experience as well.

(32:05)

Ann: Aww, Gucci.

Aminatou: Gucci. Guch. I don't know, the benefits of marijuana in general for me have been very tangible. It is part of like chill harder. It's part of calm your brain down. But for me it's also helped a lot with a lot of body pain I've had. You know, like shout-out to all my CBD rubs. You can actually find one in the Of a Kind store. Look at that, free plug. Free plug. Especially when you're bombarded with medicine all the time, to just have something that the ingredients you understand and to just feel you can be a little bit in control of what's happening to you, it has made me feel much better.

Ann: Yeah. Hence the microdose. There's no need to go all-in. And that's the other thing, like being forced to kind of slow down and have an experience. Part of me wonders how much of this is, you know, actually the drug or actually THC or even sometimes when it's sit down to have a glass of wine, actually the booze, and how much is just like you are mentally taking space and taking a break and being like I am going to be . . . I am going to force myself to relax and not go so hard for a while, you know?

Aminatou: I just wish that we had more of these talks out in the open because I know in our friend group we talk quite often about smoking weed or whatever. But it's not something that we systematically discuss, you know? And we don't discuss abuse issues as much as we could. We don't discuss people who are in recovery as much as we should. And I feel the more we destigmatized all of these things that are considered vices the more there is room to have meaningful and deep community conversations about that stuff.

(33:45)

Ann: Right. And how do you acknowledge that what is helpful and healing and expansive for one person can be really dangerous and unhealthy and not so great for a different person? I mean bodies are different, right? Nuance. It's not always upfront in conversations like this. But yeah, I have to say for me someone who is like -- I mean the number of woo-woo California pals who have told me that I need to get out of my head and into my body, like I've lost count. I am not someone who's like . . . well, and I think about it in a few different ways, right? The ways that the 20th century American culture that formed me told me that like okay, there are women who are valued for their body and there are women who are valued for their mind. And you need to work really hard to be a woman who is valued for her mind and not for her body, which again these are false dichotomies. This is sort of like the virgin whore dichotomy or something like that where it's like . . .

Aminatou: And like that's crazy because I'm beautiful and smart.

Ann: Exactly. And also, again, valued for their bodies. Like women who make a living off of something that has to do with their body are not smart or not valuable also for their mind, right? But it's sort of this lie that I really internalized of like okay, my body is the least important thing about me and I want that to be very clear to myself and others. And in some ways I still feel that is very, very true. And coming around to an idea of thinking about what you said earlier, like think about all my body has done for me getting me to this place. That is a very, very hard lesson for me to learn because of some deep, sexist stuff. And I think in a way because psychedelics or certain drugs allow you to tamp down on parts of your brain that run overtime in the mind department it's been very good for me to do some drugs that get me more in my body and allow me to let go of that like if I'm in my body I'm not being valued for my brain or I'm not doing what's really important about me.

(35:48)

Aminatou: Aww. You're beautiful and smart too, Ann Friedman.

Ann: Thanks boo-boo! Whew, sorry, I didn't realize I had that in me. I've been thinking about this for a while. Good thing we talked our way there. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah. It's so true. You know, I hadn't even thought about that but you're right because that's something I struggle with a lot. Just if your body is a thing that you use for work, whether that is working in entertainment or whatever, like what kind of messages are you sending? And the truth is so much of that kind of thinking is shaped by sexism and it's really, really hard to wrap your mind around. I'm just like wow, communication, it really is the key to everything right? Where it's like even when we say that, that your body should be valued, we're really talking your body until you're 30-something should be valued. We place such a finite amount of time on when a woman's body is valuable, basically your fuckable years, and there are no nuanced conversations about aging or what it means to be somebody in the public eye when you are older than whatever the fuckability age is. And I'm like this is why we watch movies where women who are 40 are playing the grandmas of people who are 17. It just makes no sense.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: It's just a dirty game. Capitalism and sexism together is a dirty game.

Ann: Well and I also think that for me, okay, example: when I was in journalism school I never understood the women who were in the broadcast media program who wanted to be on-air anchors because I was like why would you limit your career to the next 20 years? After that you're out.

Aminatou: Yeah.

Ann: I had enough feminism 101 to know that was not their fault or anything but I still had this attitude of why are you playing that dirty game and picking a career based on your bod? As opposed to like, you know, realizing a little bit more holistically what was going on. I mean I wouldn't say I thought they were dumb or anything like that. On the contrary I'm like what are these smart women doing throwing their lot in with their bodies, right?

(37:50)

Aminatou: Right. But do you think you thought that of the men that were in the program too, that they were using their bodies?

Ann: Yeah. Like they're in a very visible role which means certain things, right? In terms of how capitalism requires you to present yourself. Because it does require certain things of people in male bodies or people who present as male.

Aminatou: Yeah.

Ann: They are also held to standards. But I do think that I, you know, look, I was like the career arc for a man in front of a camera is a lot longer than the career arc for a woman in front of the camera.

Aminatou: Absolutely.

Ann: So I did not think that they were making as dumb of a choice.

Aminatou: Absolutely.

Ann: Which is just to say recognizing the effect that that had on me then and how I felt about my body, right? Like oh, as if I can kind of opt out of that problem by ignoring my body. Like no. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah. It's so true. And now with social media you have such an onslaught of just phony bodies really. Well maybe that's not even the right way to put it because I personally, I don't know how I feel about plastic surgery in the sense I'm like would I do it for myself? Elective surgery? Probably not. But, you know, if somebody else wants to do it for XYZ reasons that's your own choice. But I think that where I land on most of it is I think it's very disingenuous when people profit from plastic surgery and do not disclose that they've had plastic surgery. So, you know, case in point celebrities who sell workout tools or whatever. And I'm like hmm, that's not real. Like the rate of velocity in which we're just taking in the ways acceptable bodies are changing is so fascinating to me and it happens so fast. The standards are like, you know, it's like a different body is acceptable now than was acceptable even when we were growing up. But it's interesting who the people are that are allowed to have that body. So when I think about curves or whatever it's still kind of dangerous for women of color to have curves but it is cool for white ladies to have curves and butts now.

(39:45)

Ann: Yeah. I mean and also just recognizing that all -- that whatever moment we are in in terms of like what the market deems great about a certain type of body, I really wish I were more hopeful about the power of feminism to eradicate these questions altogether. Like what I feel is more short-term realistic is the standards will just continue to shift. I hope it changes in a way that it becomes more expansive rather than just remaining a very narrow band of bodies that are deemed acceptable and then that definition shifting. I hope there's sort of a wider array, increasingly wider. But I don't know, I'm not . . . sometimes due to the aforementioned effects of capitalism I am not super, super hopeful that it will ever be cool to just have any kind of body because that's not what sells shit.

Aminatou: I know. But it's also like why I guess it's so important to support economies or like businesses that are actually body-posi and to really think about where you spend your money. Because that's literally all capitalism is is spending money, so if you can make your money talk for you that's amazing. It's like look at where plus-sized brands were ten years ago and where they are today.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: It used to be shopping in my body was not -- it was not an option. And now I can go into most stores and try things on. That is like a shift that has happened. I'm still utterly fascinated people in fashion don't want to take the money of people bigger than size 14s. I'm like I love money. What is wrong with you people? It makes no sense.

Ann: It's a very weird thing about the market, right? Like you would think it always defaults to where is there more money? And this is one of those cases where it does not and I cannot figure it out either.

Aminatou: Yeah. It's like where money and class and beauty -- like everything intersects. It is wild. But I think that for me, you know, this is part of why I like to give my money to independent designers where I can shop at and where, you know, it's not to say that it's cheap but it makes me feel good to spend my money at a place where different bodies can fit into things.

(41:50)

Ann: Yeah. And I have to say too that I have gotten into the practice in part because it's something we are asking of clothing manufacturers who advertise on this podcast but it's something that I've gotten into the habit of doing of like okay, if I'm on a website and I see that they don't carry clothes that are going to fit me which is, let's be real, lots of websites, when I notice something doesn't fit me in the past I would be like okay, goodbye. This is not for me. And instead I have taken to sending a quick email to the hello or help line and just being like "Just wanted you to know I like your aesthetic. You would've had my money but you don't serve my body. Bye forever."

Aminatou: I love that.

Ann: I know. Goodbye forever. [Laughs] But, you know, this is a practice we have of when a clothing brand advertises on our podcast and we notice that it is not as inclusive as we wish it were, these are conversations that we're having in the background. And I think recognizing both that not everything is great out the gate but also that there is some room for change and maybe if they understand that their consumer base really, really cares about inclusivity maybe things will change. I don't know. How many emails does it take to the customer support line before they're like "Maybe we should add a couple sizes?"

Aminatou: It takes a couple emails. It takes a couple Instagram scandals and everything happens. [Laughs] But mostly I'm just like, you know, the American body has changed throughout history and American fashion and American retail has refused to keep up. That just makes no sense to me.

Ann: Right. Yeah, and I think just to bring it full circle that is a thing that does reflect in terms of your personal confidence and how you feel. I mean I feel good when I'm in clothes that fit my body and I know you are the same way. We've worked really hard to figure out how to do that when the market doesn't make it easy.

Aminatou: Totally. And you know this about me. I refuse to keep things in my closet that don't fit.

Ann: Right.

(43:45)

Aminatou: There's no such thing as the imaginary body I'm going to have one day. No way.

Ann: Right. But I do think that it is -- it could be very powerful. What if it were easier to buy things that fit your body better?

Aminatou: Yeah.

Ann: That would be an important thing. How would you feel in public? How I feel in public is often dictated by how I'm feeling in my body that day or how I'm feeling about what I'm wearing that day or that sort of thing. I do think it would have a ripple effect in other ways.

(44:10)

Aminatou: This is why you and I had early bonding moments over thrifting because we were able to modify the clothes we wanted or whatever. But it makes me so furious when I think about we are complaining about access to clothes in general and the truth is we're pretty privileged when it comes to access to clothes.

Ann: Oh, completely.

Aminatou: We can afford most things. We are able-bodied people. We are people who live in big cities. And it just blows my mind that if it's hard for us how much harder is it for somebody else? And that's a thing that also doesn't get discussed enough.

Ann: Totally.

Aminatou: You know, the ableism in clothes and fashion and how much it -- like it's so pernicious and even people like us who mean well perpetrate that language and those stereotypes so much and it is endlessly frustrating.

Ann: Yeah. I feel like we've gotten so far from the summer body-posi episode we wanted to do. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Listen! It's summer body. Well you know what? If you could make up one mantra for yourself that you would tell your mantra for your summer body what is it?

Ann: Hmm. Okay, I've got to think about this.

Aminatou: Okay. I have a very cheesy one.

Ann: Tell me.

Aminatou: "Hello Amina's body." I have to talk to my body in the third person.

Ann: Oh my god, Myisha actually gave me a writing assignment that's write like a journal entry that's your mind talking to your body and write another one that's your body talking to your mind.

Aminatou: Oh man, okay, I'll do the first one. I don't think that I'm evolved yet to do the other one.

Ann: You've got to do them both.

Aminatou: Okay.

Ann: Sorry, go on.

(45:48)

Aminatou: "Hello Amina's body. You are strong. You are beautiful. You are enough. You are a very sexy beast. I love you because you love me and I love you because you are beautiful. I love you because you do not compare yourself to anybody else's highlight reel and I am so proud of how far we have come together and I have so much faith in how far we can go together." That's my mantra to my body.

Ann: Yeah. I guess I feel like my body is -- my mantra is like "Hey body, you're doing great. Keep it up."

Aminatou: [Laughs] For somebody who loves words what a loss of words.

Ann: I know! You know what? It's hard because I do feel like it's like a feeling. It's almost like a thing that is . . . words is . . .

Aminatou: It totally is a feeling.

Ann: Words is the realm of my brain and body is the realm of -- like I want the mantra to my body to be like lots of really good body oils. I want the mantra to my body to be like . . .

Aminatou: Yes!

Ann: Like lying on the floor of my office in the middle of the day. I want the mantra of my body to be like lots of good sex, you know what I mean?

Aminatou: Yes.

Ann: I don't want the mantra to my body . . . like for some reason it's like if I start to go into the words part of me, like I said I have a problem splitting these parts of myself into separate . . .

Aminatou: Listen you little Capricorn, you don't have to explain yourself. [Laughs]

Ann: You're doing great body.

Aminatou: Oh my god, my little flour tortilla. I love you. Okay Amina and Ann's bods, congratulations. You made it.

Ann: Shout-out to all the summer bodies. You made it. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I know. Shout-out to everybody with a summer body. That's every single one of you.

Ann: We'll see you at the beach.

Aminatou: In this hemisphere at least. [Laughs]

Ann: Well and shout-out to those of you who've just come through a really fun summer with your body in the other hemisphere.

Aminatou: True. And also shout-out to all of our Irish babes who made history.

Ann: Who have autonomy over your bodies, hell yeah!

Aminatou: I know. I cried so much. Thank you for historical wins. I forgot what it was like to win. How amazing.

Ann: Completely.

(47:55)

Aminatou: Do something nice for yourself today.

Ann: 100%.

Aminatou: Do something real nice for yourself.

Ann: For your bod. [Laughs]

Aminatou: That's right. I make get some oils and take a bath. Look at that.

Ann: Well-oiled machine, maybe that's my body mantra. Like not in the machine sense but in the oil sense.

Aminatou: Yo, body's choice. Thank you Brittany Calendar (?) for bringing that into our lives.

Ann: It's true.

Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac. See you on the Internet, boo-boo.

Ann: See you on the Internet.
bodies, interviewsCall Your Girlfriendbody positivity, bodies, microdosing, psychedelics, Lindy West, Michael Pollan, She's All Fat