Cult Leader Goals
3/30/18 - Stormy Daniels: politician, credible source, savvy scammer. Wild Wild Country is our new cult obsession. (Doesn't Amina have the makings of a good cult leader?) Learning new languages as an adult and we're still Bleedin' 4 Amina and discovering an international buffet of blood donation snacks along the way. A SESTA update. Plus, Aly Raisman is calling out concern-troll critics who re-victimize her fellow Olympic gymnasts.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: CULT LEADER GOALS
[Ads]
(1:05)
Aminatou: [French] at Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere who can't speak French.
Aminatou: Je suis Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda Stormy Daniels continues to be the best, a SESTA update which continues to be the worst, wild, wild country and we'll dive into what it might look like if Amina were a cult leader -- I mean I'm joining, right? Plus Aly Raisman is so great in the face of people who are so awful.
[Theme Song]
Aminatou: Bonjour Ann Friedman. [French]?
(2:00)
Ann: Ugh, you know, you are really just touching a very sore point about my merely barely bilingual existence in this world.
Aminatou: Aww, girl! You know I just wanted to say [Accented] Ann Friedman because that's how my dad calls you. [Laughs]
Ann: I mean it truly never sounds better than when you say it in a French accent right?
Aminatou: Aww! Listen, we're going to do some Duolingo this year. You got this.
Ann: Okay, does Duolingo really work?
Aminatou: As somebody who is a level 7 German Duolingo user, yes, it does work.
Ann: Okay, in the sense of it works and you could take a trip to Germany and read a few signs and have an okay experience? Or does it work like you could hook up with someone in Germany?
Aminatou: Okay, first of all I could definitely hook up with someone in Germany. [Laughs]
Ann: The international language.
Aminatou: So here's the deal: I'm not going to do a Duolingo ad. But, you know, as somebody who has mastered many languages later in life -- and by many languages I mean just English. [Laughs]
Ann: Okay, English is many languages. Let's be real. No rules.
Aminatou: The problem with Americans and languages is that your educational system has failed you but also English supremacy has failed you because everybody speaks English everywhere.
Ann: Oh, all around.
Aminatou: I think if you want to learn a language two skills are very necessary. One is persistence and two is not being embarrassed of making mistakes, a thing that Americans are very bad at. Americans hate to make mistakes.
Ann: I would say especially the types of Americans who aspire to know multiple languages are very bad at that, yeah.
Aminatou: Exactly! It's always people who are like "I read Chaucer" but they can't order a Taco in Los Angeles in Spanish. You know what I'm saying? So not afraid of being silly or sounding dumb. That's honestly the thing that will take you as far as possible. And when I say be persistent that's what I like about Duolingo. Like are you going to be able to read a magazine based on your Duolingo skills? Absolutely not. But are you going to be able to understand basic requirements of grammar and small phrases that will get you around wherever you're going? Absolutely. And also because it's gamified you build up muscle of checking in all the time because really language is just like you need to know how the grammar works then you need to acquire vocabulary. The hardest part is working out how the grammar works. Vocabulary acquisition is literally just content. It's like well, at this point you can read magazines. You can watch TV shows.
(4:44)
I've been watching a bunch of German TV shows with the subtitles on and I don't feel confident enough that I can carry on a five-minute conversation in German but I'm definitely like oh, I recognize words. I get how this works now. All I'm saying is Ann, I can get you to do this podcast intro in French in like two weeks.
Ann: Okay. I mean I just am going to need an app that's not gamified. I get very resentful. This was my problem with meditation apps that shall not be named that are gamified where I'm like I don't need to feel like I'm leveling up or that I've got a streak; I just need you to meet my needs. I'm not very responsive to that kind of competition.
Aminatou: No, I hear you. I think that the gamification is not about competition. It literally is just about checking in as much as possible. I still don't feel like I'm a fully-competent English speaker because I don't feel like fully self-expressed in English. I hope that that will change one day. But, you know, it's like the thing is you just have to check in all of the time. It's why I love reading. Tell me what language you're trying to get better at and we'll find you trashy magazines in that language.
(5:45)
Ann: Okay. Well, you know, now I have a new goal of having four lines of dialogue in French with you at the top of this podcast.
Aminatou: Listen, you've got it. French is like stupid easy. You've got this.
Ann: Even as a native speaker? Come now.
Aminatou: Listen, French, honestly, not that hard. All of these romance languages, if you know how to do a three-clause sentence which I know you know how to do you'll be fine.
Ann: Okay.
Aminatou: And also here's the other thing, right, that I will tell you too. A thing that stresses people out when they're language-learning is they can't separate out understanding the language but also being able to do the accent right. The accent really does not matter. It's like you can sound estupido if you want but you should -- if you can say what you can say people will understand you, so don't stress out. I've got you.
Ann: I am confident in my inability to do accents. For me it's a skill next to singing or musical theatre or something that I will just never possess. Like making your throat and mouth make very specific sounds, I'm like no. Mechanics are the only way for me. So this resonates. This very much resonates.
Aminatou: Listen, if I can do this fake valley girl accent that I've been doing for how many years now? [Laughs] You've got this. I'm fully confident about this, don't worry.
Ann: You mean all of our hate mail about how much we say like could've been averted by you just adopting a slightly different accent?
Aminatou: Right? Like, you know, if it was cool for people not to say like on television when I was coming up maybe I would've had perfect diction. But sorry.
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: I was watching Daria.
Ann: I think your diction is perfect right now okay? Exactly is it is.
Aminatou: [French] Ann Friedman. [Laughs]
Ann: Ugh, I don't even know how to say thank you in French.
Aminatou: Merci is thank you.
Ann: I know, I know, I know. I'm being sarcastic.
Aminatou: You got it. You got it. You got it. We're going to get Gina up in here doing Spanish intros.
Ann: Gina's Spanish is flawless.
Aminatou: Oh no, flawless. [Laughs] She's such a babe too. Yummy voice in Spanish, can you imagine?
(7:50)
Ann: Wow, stop sexually objectifying Gina on this podcast. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Listen, I love her for her brain but, you know, because we're a podcast I feel like people don't get the visual enough.
Ann: Wow. Wow, wow, wow.
Aminatou: Gina, you can file a complaint at the EEOC. I love you. You're beautiful and . . .
Ann: Slash edit this out.
Aminatou: Exactly. You're beautiful and smart. [Laughs]
Ann: Quickest of updates is we had our L.A. blood drive in the time since we last podcasted and it was wonderful. I just want to put in another reminder to go to callyourgirlfriend.com/blooddrive and most of our drives have full appointment times but you can walk in in most of them. And I have been finding later in the day it tends to slow down but maybe that'll vary city-by-city. Walk in and you can give because there are always a few people who have appointments who are unable to donate for some reason. And if you can't or don't want to do that on the actual day, sign up for a different day. Sign up with Be the Match to be a bone marrow donor. All of that is at callyourgirlfriend.com/blooddrives and we will see everyone at the drive in New York very soon.
Aminatou: And I have a little plug about taking care of your health. I've noticed that a lot of me are writing to me about how you feel really bad that you're anemic and you can't give blood. Please don't feel bad that you can't give blood. Are you kidding me? This is my best scam yet is getting the healthy people to help all of us. We're fine. But second of all anemia is very, very bad and if you are a woman who has a period you probably have anemia. It's something that's really easy to correct if you catch it on time, so just taking an iron supplement. I'm a fan of Floradix but honestly -- I love how that sounds, Floradix.
Ann: Floradix?
Aminatou: I've never said it out loud. LOL.
Ann: That totally sounds like an asshole from a specific state, yeah.
Aminatou: I know! Wow. Which is one that is liquid because the stuff is hard on your stomach, but really you can take any iron supplement over-the-counter. The only thing is take it with some Vitamin C because it works better that way and don't take it on an empty stomach. And, you know, you don't have to take it every day of your life because it'll definitely make your poop look weird, no joke, but you should take it around your period at least. It's like anemia is bad. Now that I don't have it I'm like I can't believe I used to live that way. It's terrible.
(10:15)
The other thing I've learned is all the international people who are doing their own blood drives. Thank you so much. I love seeing the snacks that they give in other countries. This woman from Sweden Instagrammed me and Ann, the Swedish snacks are out of control.
Ann: Hit me. Tell me about all of them.
Aminatou: You would've loved it so much. It was like finger sandwiches. It was like cheese and cucumber on bread and I was like this is such an Ann Friedman jam.
Ann: You know I love a tiny sandwich.
Aminatou: I know! It's so good. And in Canada they have these really rad pins that they give them whenever they give blood and I'm like I'm trying to go give blood in Canada now because I need that pin for my denim jacket. So I'm so attached. I seriously feel like I'm having an out-of-body experience that this is happening but we're helping so many people so thank you.
Ann: So many, yeah. And if you did give on your own somewhere or on a different day not at the drive there are forms on our website that you can fill out and tell us that you gave so that we can count you in part of our pint total. Because you know it's going to be high and I definitely want everyone who gave as part of this effort if they want to be counted to be counted.
Aminatou: That's right. The million pint march marches on. Thank you.
Ann: [Laughs] Yes. Also keep documenting the snacks. Now I'm also -- I can't believe this was not a request earlier but it is true the snacks were the number one topic of conversation at the L.A. blood drive and I want to know. I want to know all the regional international differences.
[Music]
Ann: Okay, what's going on in the news? Yeah.
(11:50)
Aminatou: Oh my god, Ann, there's so much going on in the news but we've finally reached a crescendo of the news that I'm into: a tale as old as time, an American president and a porn star. We have reached this part of the season in this season of America.
Ann: How is this not -- this is every season truly, but yeah.
Aminatou: Except for Obama. The writers of the Obama season did not go there with all of the cliches that American presidents are saddled with. The Obama years were a comedy and we've gone back to our dramatic roots.
Ann: Oh my god. You know how there is the feeling of so much news related to our terrible Cheeto president that it is almost impossible week-over-week to remember what has happened to string it all together. Like things that would've been major scandals affecting any other presidency are somehow forgotten blips.
Aminatou: Because there's too many of them!
Ann: Exactly. And through all of that muck who would've thought one that with possibly true staying power was Stormy Daniels? Who would've thought?
Aminatou: Oh my god, so can I tell you something very embarrassing? Obviously I've been following the Stormy Daniels thing since the beginning because, you know, you say porn star and all of us in America go ooh, this is the thing that will actually take him down because we're all hypocrites around here. What's going on? When I was reading all the articles about her I felt so dumb that I didn't realize that Stormy Daniels is obviously a stage name.
Ann: Okay, this is hard in an era of reality TV babies sometimes to know what is a stage name and what is not.
Aminatou: Stormy. I was like Kylie's baby is literally named Stormy, you know what I mean? [Laughs] And the baby was born circa Stormy Daniels so I'm like what is Kylie trying to do here? But anyway . . .
Ann: A tale of two Stormies.
Aminatou: I know, I felt really dumb. I was like ugh, this shows how much I keep up with pornography. But Stormy is a very compelling person. On her 60 Minutes interview she was wearing a button-up shirt. And, you know, I'm a busty lady, she's a busty lady, and I was like where did you get that shirt from? I was mesmerized. There is no peaking. It looked great.
(14:05)
Ann: Listen, she is a business woman. She'll be the first to tell you that, she is a boss lady. When you have those kinds of dollars you get custom shirts, right? This is what's going on.
Aminatou: I know. I know. And she totally is a business lady actually and I really like that about her that she's very transparent about what's going on here. She's somebody who has been really good about manipulating media attention before. She explored running for the office. She's been in the news before, before or after this president. But the details were really horrifying. She spanked him with a Forbes magazine with his face on it. The Obama years, it was literally -- it was a sitcom. It was like this sweet little comedy, you know, like PG on NBC. And we are really back to the down and dirty over here. This is wild.
Ann: Right, unless you were paying attention to the right-wing media in which case the scandals of the Obama years were he wore a tan suit or put his feet up on the desk, right? That was like, yeah, sitcom-level drama.
Aminatou: Ugh. The thing about the Stormy Daniels thing is there is a world in which it's just like yes, Republican hypocrisy all over again. There is nothing wrong with two consensual adults having a relationship. It's like leave us out of it. But in America we sexualize our politicians' sex lives, sometimes for good reasons because they're hypocrites, and most times because we do it for sport and entertainment and it's really messed up. But the truth of the matter is this isn't actually about the sex scandal; it is about the payoff that happened here and what relationship these people have had since he's become president. Clearly there is some hanky-panky going on. I'm like what's going on with the money?
Ann: I also just want to back up and say that while for the most part this has not been couched in terms of something like assault in the 60 Minutes interview she described a situation that like -- well the New York Times description is she was "at best unenthusiastic" about it which we know what these euphemisms mean.
Aminatou: Right.
Ann: And she claims that the horrible steaming turd of a president said to her "You put yourself in a bad situation and bad things happen so you deserve this."
Aminatou: Right. And, you know, it also goes to show so much of how we treat people who make porn, people who are sex workers, etc., etc., etc., and this idea that they deserve bad things that happen to them is actually fucked up.
Ann: Right.
(16:25)
Aminatou: It's like no, this is their place of employment so 1) fuck you. It's like this is how rape culture permeates everything. Pornography and sex work is about capitalism. It's not about shaming people into any kind of sexual interaction.
Ann: Right. I just wanted to back up and say that because it is not something that has been at the forefront here.
Aminatou: Yep.
Ann: You're totally right that what has been at the forefront is settlements and lawsuits and non-disclosure agreements and that sort of thing which is all well and good and interesting and she is really owning her power on that front for sure.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: Because of the exact reasons you mentioned, for a tale as old as time, anyone who engages in any kind of sex work has been considered unrapeable and we've really . . .
Aminatou: We really messed up. No, I totally agree with you. Like we don't actually know what this story is about because at the heart of it is non-disclosures and two people who love publicity where I'm like okay, there are facts then there is the circus that everybody is bringing to town. But actually we don't know what the dispute is about.
Ann: Well we do know a figure, $130,000.
Aminatou: Yeah. We know that $130,000 passed hands. We know that Stormy Daniels was threatened which honestly is like really messed up and is par for the course for a lot of people who have had NDA dealings with Trump. We also know that Stormy's lawyer is so zatty, my god. Every time he's on TV I'm like what is her story? [Laughs]
(18:00)
Ann: Way to skip over the fact that people close to Trump have been physically threatening people who have something against him business-wise or are in a position to harm his reputation. There are a couple BuzzFeed articles going back, you know, like last year -- this is not brand new or anything -- but incidents where people are going to the police to be like "Um, hello? Someone associated with Donald Trump is physically threatening me."
Aminatou: Yep.
Ann: So not that we need to double down on her credibility but there is a pattern of behavior outside of this incident that completely supports her argument that she signed this agreement because she was afraid for her physical safety.
Aminatou: Yes, 100% true. And, you know, ancient political proverb, it's always about the cover-up so we'll see where this goes. But I think that this -- there is another woman who is also suing Trump for the right to talk about her NDA and their agreement. It's like there's a lot of smoke there. There are a lot of people who are being intimidated and who are being silenced. You know, it's like who knows what the next episode will bring?
Ann: Yeah. I have really just enjoyed getting to know Stormy Daniels. We talked about that long New York Times feature about some of the details of her life and her upbringing and her hustle and her business choices. Did you see the anecdote about her high school yearbook quote?
Aminatou: Oh my god, tell me.
Ann: Her high school yearbook quote was "We will all get along just fine as soon as you realize that I am queen."
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I was like is this Aminatou Sow's high school yearbook?
Aminatou: Oh my god, I can't talk about my high school yearbook quote but it's going to come back to bite me one day. Don't you worry. But wow, yeah, no, I like that she's in control. She's in control of her own narrative. She's in control of her own power. You know, and so many of the Trump supporters troll her all the time on Twitter and her stance about it is what are you going to say about me that people haven't said before?
(20:00)
Ann: Right, yeah. And there is something about that too of like I don't want to downplay people who experience extreme harassment on the Internet. That is very, very real. I'm not saying it's no big deal. But watch her kind of flip and cutting replies to people who say things like "I'm pretty sure that dumb whores go to hell" and she's like "Whew, glad I'm a smart one."
Aminatou: I know.
Ann: And maybe it doesn't feel that way inside her world, maybe these things are damaging, but you're right, there's got to be something about having chosen a profession where people are dismissing you all the time that has made her ready to weather the storm of the MAGA people.
Aminatou: No, and I love every time she talks about money in the two profiles of her that I read because she started off as a stripper then she made the leap into porn. But even her boss at the strip joint was like "We knew she was destined for big things." And she had been saving all of her stripper money and she's like "I have good credit and I own property." And I was like you know, this is the stuff that young ladies need to be talking about. Her is Stormy Daniels in all of her young 20s glory and she understands the economic game and she understands where the odds are stacked against her and she's taking life by the reins.
Ann: Yeah. I also did not know or did not remember that in 2009 when -- do you remember David Vitter, US senator from Louisiana?
Aminatou: Yeah, I remember that. Then she explored running for his seat.
Ann: Yeah. He was basically ousted because he had engaged the services of a sex worker and she was like "Guess what? I'm going to run. And guess what? My work experience does not make me unqualified for office. In fact I'm a real working American and I'm running." So obvs did not win but her slogan was screwing people honestly.
(21:55)
Aminatou: I love that. She should go into politics.
Ann: I mean she is in politics right?
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I know she's not -- she is though. She is doing it.
Aminatou: I'm just saying she should get paid like taxpayer rates for being in politics.
Ann: Yeah. Also this Times profile ends with a quote from the agent who manages her bookings which is definitely goals for you and me. It just says "She likes to maximize her profits." [Laughter]
Aminatou: Shout-out to Stormy Daniels. Thank you for your service.
Ann: Yeah, young Stormy has so much to live up to with not her namesake but her name-sharing icon.
Aminatou: Oh my god, Stormy Kardashian?
Ann: Yep. Stormy K.
Aminatou: You know, those kids, the new generation, they're probably all going to be like doctors and lawyers.
Ann: Maybe. I can't wait until we're doing this podcast in another 30 years.
Aminatou: Just kidding! Please just kidding. You know, empires rise and fall. The new generation is coming. [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah. But okay, I've got to say as a side note it's been really nice to see this credulous treatment of Stormy Daniels by the profiles that she's getting and some of the commentary which frankly is frustrating when it's directed to someone like Ivanka who we are just screaming about the level of scam that is going on. And I think that it's just like -- it's so great to be like, you know, the fact that it ends with that quote about maximizing her profits, yeah, it's all kind of a scam on some level and it can also be true that this president is a horrible, threatening person who deserves to have everyone know about everything he's done. Like all of these things can be true. She can both be a scammer in her own way and also this president deserves to get scammed.
Aminatou: That's right. That's right. Scam before you get scammed. That's the American way.
[Music and Ads]
(26:49)
Ann: Speaking of hypocritical and counterproductive things we talked about SESTA on a previous episode of this podcast.
Aminatou: Ooh, do you have a SESTA update for us?
Ann: I mean I do. I wish it was a better one. So basically it was a bill that claimed to be ending sex trafficking or fighting sex trafficking. In fact it was making online platforms more liable for their users' speech and so certain platforms where people who engaged in sex work had posted messages, had shared resources, were going to be prevented from doing that there. And so people -- lots of well-meaning celebrities were in favor of this bill. Lots of people who had actually worked in a lot of the industries affected were against it. And it passed. That's the update. The Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act and Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act -- there was sort of like a combination of those things that passed.
Aminatou: Everything is so annoying right now.
Ann: Yeah.
(27:48)
Aminatou: Are you proud of yourself Amy Schumer? Are you proud of yourself?
Ann: I was reading some quotes from people who had campaigned against this bill and on the upside it is a catalyzing thing that got places like this very podcast to discuss an issue that we had not taken up yet. There is some kind of silver lining. Everyone is still trying to figure out exactly what this is going to mean on a tech level and for the lives and safety of people who work in these professions. It's like much of it is TBD but . . .
Aminatou: Okay.
Ann: Ugh, yeah.
Aminatou: We'll keep an eye on it.
Ann: Unforch update, maybe not surprising.
Aminatou: Speaking of the mainstream media stirring up the pot I have watched this Netflix six-part documentary called Wild, Wild Country literally three times now.
Ann: Important cult television.
Aminatou: Oh my god, this bullseye dead center of my Venn diagram is Immigration fraud and cults and this has both. So I lost my mind. Wild, Wild country is about Bhagwan Rajneesh who if you've backpacked anywhere and stayed at a hostile you're very familiar with the teachings of Osho. And I've known about this cult for a long time but what I did not know is that in the '80s they moved to a tiny town in central Oregon and basically kind of tried to take over. And the reason that this is fascinating is because it's actually an incredible parallel for the Trump years. You know, it's like tale as old as time. White people are living somewhere with their Mayflower mentality. Indian cult moves in and the townspeople lose their minds. [Laughs]
Ann: Especially because the cult is charismatic in converting lots of white people.
Aminatou: I mean the cult is fascinating because the cult is 100% a scam which is why I've kind of secretly always loved Osho is that Bhagwan, the -- I was going to say the scam leader, the cult leader -- they've been really clear from the beginning that they love capitalism. That's like my jam. Where literally one of his teachings is one of the dumbest things things that all religions do is say money is not important. He's like not here, hello? My man has like 20 Rolls-Royces, he has a million dollar Rolex. I'm just like I love this shit.
(30:15)
Ann: He also predates American evangelical prosperity gospel people who are like "God wants you to get rich," right? He predates that by decades and decades. Yeah.
Aminatou: No, I mean totally, you know? And he's like yeah, that new-wave mysticism. But also white people are crazy right? So it's like the guru is Indian. He has what he calls a secretary which is basically a chief of staff. Ann, this is like cult leader goals. The cult leader does nothing. He just hangs out and somebody hands him a Rolls-Royce and I'm pretty sure he plays Xbox the rest of the time. And he's just like "I'm in silence for five years." But the chief of staff has to do all of the work and I was like wow, goals. Look at this. He learned how to delegate and he doesn't have to deal with anybody's shit. And so his number two is this woman Ma Anand Sheela who is like -- Sheela is the best. She is so wild. But the reason the documentary is fascinating is, you know, in typical leftie documentary form the documentarians are really tough on the townspeople which the townspeople are 1,000 percent bigots. Yeah, I'm shocked that old, rich people in Central Oregon don't want a cult to move next to them and people who say that they're Christians actually don't respect other religious minorities. I'm shocked. [Laughter] But they kind of let the cult skate by because the cult is nuanced and interesting. And I've noticed this a lot with a lot of cultish reexaminations of the '90s, there is a TV show right now about David Koresh, Waco on Paramount, with our boyfriend Tim Riggins.
(31:50)
Ann: Please, that's not a plural. That's not a plural first person. He's your boyfriend.
Aminatou: Listen, no, I meant our boyfriend. America's boyfriend.
Ann: Also disagree. Go on. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Fool. Tim Riggins. What is the actor's name? Taylor Kitsch. So in that the movie is basically about how like oh, these Branch Davidians were just chill people trying to live like Talmudic law and the FBI overreacted. And I'm like you know my third eye is wide open so I'm going to submit to you that the FBI definitely is bad and they're always overreacting but also cults are bad. [[L] So that's what's going on. But back to Wild, Wild Country.
Ann: But do you think it's because it makes for more interesting narrative? That's my perspective. It's more interesting to consider like what if these are empathetic people? What if David Koresh wasn't doing horrible things? It makes for a more interesting story than a straight-up good versus evil.
(32:40)
Aminatou: Listen, I hear you. I totally hear you. Cult leaders are nuanced, sure, and I definitely think the Branch Davidians were nuanced and even the Rajneeshis and Osho is very, very nuanced. But I think that you can also hold up a lot of the shit that they do wrong to them. Like the Branch Davidians were marrying 14-year-olds.
Ann: I know, I know. I'm just saying the desire for kind of narrative complexity is what drives a lot of the probably more generous than necessary portrayals. Yeah.
Aminatou: I know. But I also think that it's like a classic liberal flaw, right? There has to be a binary and somebody has to be nuanced and know a little better then the other people are evil. And I was like no, no, you can sit on the sidelines and go this is both bad, this train wreck, which is what I think most black people do in life all the time is sit on the sidelines and go "I'm skeptical about all of this." But one of the things that's fascinating in Wild, Wild Country is to see how the media played such a huge part in stirring up the situation. You know, it's like '80s TV. The archival footage is amazing. It was like right after Jonestown so everybody is like oh my god, cults are bad. In fact one congressman Leo Ryan who died at Jonestown, his daughter became a Rajneeshi.
Ann: Wow.
(34:00)
Aminatou: So it's wild stuff. I'm not going to ruin it for you. All I will say is another thing that is very Trumpian about all of this is that the woman who is like the secretary chief of staff, Sheela who is amazing, I feel about her like how Make America Great Again feel about Trump where she's just like the real talk express. There's this amazing footage of her in the beginning where a reporter is basically like "Ugh, why are you guys coming to Oregon?" And she's like "Tough titties." Like she just does not care. [Laughs] And I was like I love this. I love that she says everything that goes through her mind. Anyway, long story short, watch this documentary. It is a fascinating parallel for our times. You will never hear so many people speak and not believe a single one of them. You're like all of you are liars on every side here.
Ann: I mean I think, okay, I think there is also an appeal to watching a cult documentary, whatever, even narrative things that are based on cults because it is like there is this sense of containment right?
Aminatou: Yes.
Ann: Where it's like oh, if you're in the cult things are super intense or you've swallowed a certain narrative or whatever. And then if you're not in the cult then you can kind of see clearly what's going on. And again not to harp on this point about narrative but that is a really attractive thing to people and to viewers, right? Rather than thinking about how we are all implicated in . . . how we are all susceptible to the message of God wants us to be rich or whatever, you know?
Aminatou: God does want me to be rich. What? [Laughs]
Ann: I mean it is definitely true when you look at charitable donation patterns that most people believe that God wants them to keep their wealth.
Aminatou: Totally.
Ann: But yeah, but this sense of oh, we can kind of other it, right? Like oh, what happened in this cult over here has to do with these people over here. And it's interesting and it's fascinating, like we can peer in on this fish bowl but at the end of the day the implications are not extreme for me.
(35:54)
Aminatou: No, it's true. That's true. The other thing about this that's fascinating is this is a cult for smart people which was very strange. It's like oh, here are all these architects and farmers and the best lawyers. They're like building a city out of nowhere. And, you know, I definitely felt when I was backpacking after college and I would meet people that were into this stuff I'm like wow, you seem really reasonable. What's going on here that you're into this weird stuff?
Some of that is evidenced by the fact they really thought the constitution was going to protect them. I'm like what? Only wild white people led by two Indian scammers think that the constitution of the United States -- these United States -- is what's going to keep their religion alive. [Laughs] I'm like that is crazy. But they really use all of the civic tools at their disposal. I love it. They're like running elections, incorporating towns, home rule. It's great. I'm just like wow, when you believe in the system this is how you get screwed.
Ann: Oof. Also I have to tell you that I watched the first episode of this the day before the blood drive, the L.A. blood drive, and I had already planned a head-to-toe red outfit.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And it was kind of like your leftovers phase where you were guilty remaining in the white caftan all the time.
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Ann: Where I was like wow, I know a large percentage of the people who are coming to this blood drive are in the target demo for cult documentaries and they are really going to think I am influenced heavily by my Netflix watching lately.
Aminatou: I know. It's like Ma Anand Ann Friedman with Rajaneeshi gear.
Ann: Listen, if I were more motivated I could be Sheelaing right now.
Aminatou: You know, I don't like people enough to either be in a cult or be a cult leader.
Ann: I mean I . . . I think that you have some cult leader tendencies that could be -- you know, not for the Sheela role but the Bahgwan role where you're like "I'm meditating in silence. All of my fathers give me your money." You could run that scam. You could definitely run that scam. [Laughter]
Aminatou: It's not my fault people love to listen to me okay?
(38:05)
Ann: Exactly. It's not your fault that you have such deep eyes like pools of the universe, right? Not your fault.
Aminatou: Oh my god. Yeah, no, I just don't get it. I'm like -- you know, it's the same reason that I couldn't be in the army. I'm like I don't like people telling me what to do and I don't like people biting my style.
Ann: There is a fundamental joinerism to being in a cult. I know it sounds obvious but I am not a joiner.
Aminatou: Yep, not a joiner. Not a joiner at all.
Ann: I had a conversation recently with some friends about what activities everyone did when we were teenagers, like what school-sanctioned clubs, and I was just shocked to find out how many of my friends were in tons of clubs, like school-sanctioned clubs.
Aminatou: I know. I was only in clubs because I was trying to go to a good college, you know what I'm saying?
Ann: Listen. Right, you only need like two to go to a good college.
Aminatou: Exactly.
Ann: These are people who legit love clubs. And I feel like there is something about a certain personality is more susceptible to cult living.
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like why I played individual sports -- shout-out badminton. [Laughs]
Ann: Is that an individual sport? Don't you have a partner?
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean I love playing badminton doubles for real and I played that with my frienemy in high school then we became real friends. It was great. It's true everything they say about sports, your enemies can become your friends. And that's what I did in high school, and I threw javelin. LOLs.
Ann: What? I did not know that. Wow.
Aminatou: Have we not discussed my javelin throwing? I almost impaled a kid on the first day of javelin practice, tenth grade. It was terrible.
Ann: Wow. When America goes full Hunger Games I am on your team as you throw spears at the enemy.
Aminatou: Oh my god. Yeah, no. They were like "Just throw it," and I was like throw it where? And I threw it at this guy who was running -- he was running track -- and legit almost killed him. I was like this podcast almost never happened, let me tell you.
Ann: Wow.
(39:55)
Aminatou: You know, he's doing well now. He's a banker. He's great. It's fine. Everything worked out.
Ann: I can't wait until this is passed down as folklore among your cult members because they can't hear from you directly because you're in silence.
Aminatou: Listen, I've done a lot of high school crimes. Almost killed someone with a javelin. Once shot a kid with a BB gun. I didn't admit to it for three years.
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: Then one time I killed somebody's tadpole. You know, when we all had to collect tadpoles for experiments. And I didn't tell him for a long time either.
Ann: Oh, I can't even . . .
Aminatou: He was the same person as the BB gun so it's fine.
Ann: My greatest high school crime was finding a wallet on school grounds and taking 20 dollars out of it to buy weed before I returned it.
Aminatou: No!
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: That's a real crime.
Ann: I know, I'm going to burn in hell for that one. There's no question. There's no question.
Aminatou: Wow. Wow.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: Sticky Fingers Ann Friedman. Who knew?
Ann: Listen, it was not ethical. But you know what? Years later when we were in D.C. for a CYG event I found a hundred dollar bill on the floor of a hotel and turned it in as my cosmic penance.
Aminatou: Wow, one hundred dollars. We could've partied with that. [Laughs]
Ann: I know. Just saying I think about it not infrequently. I know, it's like almost accidentally killing someone with a javelin is so much better than taking 20 dollars out of a found wallet and spending it on drugs.
Aminatou: I know. But shooting someone with a BB gun is a crime. I'm just saying.
Ann: Okay, but was it an accident?
Aminatou: Listen, it was an accident but then I just didn't say that I was the one that did it which is bad.
Ann: Yeah, okay. I hear you.
Aminatou: It's bad. Then I killed his tadpole and I was like why is God making me punish this kid?
Ann: Wait, it was the same kid's tadpole?
Aminatou: It was the same kid!
Ann: Oh my god, wow. Where are they now?
Aminatou: We talked about it years later. He is also doing well. His scar looks cool. It's fine. [Laughter] If you went to my high school please do not at me. I am not trying to re-litigate this.
(41:52)
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: It was an accident. Talk to my lawyer.
[Music]
Aminatou: Do you want to hear something very outrageous?
Ann: Let's end on a note of outrage. I'm ready.
Aminatou: Olympic gymnast and amazing human being and gracious person Aly Raisman who has really been at the forefront talking about the gymnastics sexual assault scandal basically that's been consuming US gymnastics for the past year, and she's been a real leader there and has stepped up to the plate every single time, she's still having to deal with so much bullshit from people. So over the past weekend she's basically been discussing how some people feel, and by some people like adults, think that gymnasts should stop wearing leotards because basically their outfits are too sexy. And maybe if their outfits weren't so sexy the team coach would not sexually assault them. It's so insulting and ridiculous and angering.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And to Aly's credit she has been talking about it and she's very precise in all her words. She's like it's victim-shaming. It is implying that survivors should feel that it's their fault and it lets pedophiles off the hook and it lets the adults who enable them off the hook. All of her tweets about this are great but they're also heartbreaking in the sense that, you know, she has to relive her assault over and over again and just talk about it all of the time. That makes me really angry on her behalf but I'm also really grateful that she is just shining a light on just how pervasive rape culture is. Like what a ridiculous and frankly just evil thing to say to young women who are at the top of their sport and provide entertainment for everybody and just, you know, live their lives out in the public. It's really gross.
(44:15)
Ann: I just can't -- this is one of those situations too where I mean easily I don't understand men and people who are doing this kind of victim-blaming. I guess I just assume that the person who said this to her was a man but we don't know, right?
Aminatou: I don't know. The women at my high school who were pushing the dress code -- the teachers at my high school who pushed a dress code that was similar were all women, you know?
Ann: Right. But just the fact that when people basically advance, that's called concern-trolling, right?
Aminatou: Yes.
Ann: When they advance the attitude that they are supposedly trying to fight against and reinforce it with their suggestions, this is just like a textbook, like should be in the dictionary under concerned trolling/re-victimization. I can't even tell you what sort of attitude would lead someone to say "Maybe have you thought about what you're wearing?" I can't even. I can't even.
Aminatou: But how through like what, millennia of victim-shaming women, it's always your fault somehow but we have somehow not even reached, I don't know, the bare minimum of being like well how do we get men not to assault women? Like how . . . I think about these gymnasts who their parents entrust them to the US Olympic Committee and the USA Gymnastics to train with them. They send them off when they're really young and it's really to pursue their dreams and their opportunities. And there are people in their midst who just want to take advantage of them. That Larry Nassar sentencing was really shocking. 150 women testified. I remember watching that on TV and just crying, and Aly Raisman's statement was so powerful. It was so powerful.
Ann: Right.
(45:55)
Aminatou: We'll link to it in the show notes. But just thinking about having to go through that, their abuser is now behind bars and they still hear from people. Like oh, if only you wore a different costume to perform in every day this would not have happened to you is really -- it is really disgusting.
Ann: Yeah. And also the way -- I mean she keeps the focus squarely where it needs to be which is not just on the people committing these crimes but also the adults who are enabling them. Because that's the other thing going on here too, right? Of oh, yeah, it seems easier to tell gymnasts what to wear than it does to shut down this entire apparatus of support that is propping up horrible people. It's the easy way out and she's like I see you. I see you trying to take the easy way out and re-victimizing us in the process and stop it.
Aminatou: If you think about where the gymnasts are in the entire power structure they should be the ones with the most power. I'm like they're the ones that are competing. They're the ones that bring the medals. They're the ones that bring the attention. Frankly they're the only ones we care about. I don't care about the team doctor, don't care about the trainers. You guys don't figure anywhere. But in their world they were made to feel like they're the least powerful and it's because we don't take women seriously. Not even like incredibly strong women Olympic athletes.
Ann: Yeah. Ugh.
Aminatou: Anyway, shout-out to Aly Raisman who is amazing and yeah, and honestly for me has been a real bomb. I'm like I just love hearing her all the time and it makes me feel better that somebody else gets it and is really out there advocating for herself and for other people. It's really beautiful to see.
Ann: Absolutely. True hero. True hero.
Aminatou: I'm very angry so I'm going to go eat my favorite cookies, the Chessman.
Ann: Oof.
Aminatou: And lay down because it has been a day.
Ann: You deserve it. Go re-watch Wild, Wild Country again.
Aminatou: Oh my god, you know, I have so many questions! I have more questions than not. They don't even get into the weird sex stuff because that's all cults are, weird sex things.
Ann: Oh my god, completely. And also, yeah, there's also these spirals that you can go down in terms of side materials about all of this cult and all of the history and all of the famous people vaguely connected to it. Wow. I mean it's like you don't even need to re-watch it; you can just do a Google for all your supplementals.
Aminatou: Yeah. It is wild. You know if I ever start a cult I'm going to make it very transparent and the cult will be called Kult with a K. And I will be the Kult leader with a K, the others will be the Kult members, and then everybody knows what's going on here.
Ann: Okay, I hate to break it to you but . . .
Aminatou: And you've got to pay in Kult Kash with Ks. [Laughs]
Ann: I hate to break it to you but Kult with a K is a horror role-playing game from Sweden in the '90s. I just Googled it.
Aminatou: Oh my god, okay, we're done here. I will see you on the Internet. Goodbye. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh, see you in the cult role-playing game.
Aminatou: Oh my god. You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac. See you on the Internet boo-boo.
Ann: Bye.