Hot and Bothered with Cecile Richards
4/6/18 - We're together in NYC with the iconic Cecile Richards. Cecile is the president of Planned Parenthood, and announced earlier this year that she's stepping down. She tells us why she's leaving, how she felt after testifying before Congress for nearly five hours, and what's next. (A political career perhaps?) Her new book is Making Trouble with the #goals subtitle Standing Up, Speaking Out, and Finding the Courage to Lead--My Life Story. Come for the juicy behind-the-scenes memoir about the fight for repro rights and her front-row seat to her mom (and former Texas governor) Ann Richards' life and career. Stay for practical and inspiring ways to lead and make social change.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Make Trouble: Standing Up, Speaking Out, and Finding the Courage to Lead--My Life Story
Cecile's 2015 testimony at Congress's sham anti-choice hearings
TRANSCRIPT: HOT AND BOTHERED WITH CECILE RICHARDS
[Ads]
(1:05)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman.
Ann: It's a big day.
Aminatou: It's a very big day. When we started doing this podcast four years ago and we had our vision board of who we wanted to talk to on this show this next person was definitely top three.
Ann: This morning thinking about speaking with her I was making notes about questions to ask her and was actually tearing up thinking about this.
Aminatou: I know. I'm really upset about how terrible the weather is because I felt like I couldn't dress my best for her today, you know?
Ann: Same. Okay, who is it?
Aminatou: And she's going to walk in her looking fabulous.
Ann: Always.
Aminatou: It is one of our favorite women leaders in the cosmos Cecile Richards.
Ann: Ah!
[Theme Song]
(2:18)
Ann: So Cecile Richards was president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America starting in 2006 and she stepped down from that role earlier this year. She's on the board of dozens and dozens of important civic and human rights organizations. Cecile is talking to us in part because she has a new book called Make Trouble: Standing Up, Speaking Out, and Finding the Courage to Lead -- My Life Story. Which can we just talk about how much goals finding the courage to lead my life story as a book subtitle . . .
Aminatou: Yo. But that's the thing about the book that's so amazing obviously. It's definitely part biography and you're like yes, you're here for the Cecile Richards story. You're here for the Ann Richards story in there. You're here for everything she did to make sure that all of the terrible people in Congress didn't take our reproductive rights away. But then it is also a how-to manual. Here is how you are a leader, and I love that. A lot of times when people -- when we think about leadership how-tos it seems very cheesy and hokey and here is somebody actually that has a lot of skin in the game that has done the hard work. There is nothing cheesy or hokey about it. It's like here's how you go out and be a bold leader.
Ann: She's an all-around icon. I mean I do think that -- this is also part of the book but in 2015 when she testified for five straight hours before Congress when there were sham hearings related to covert videos taken at Planned Parenthoods it was so remarkable to watch the very literal one-woman stance against all of these pressures to curtail the rights of all. I don't know, it was kind of like watching the Wendy Davis speech before the Texas legislature. It's like how I feel when I watch old footage of Barbara Jordan speaking. I don't know.
Aminatou: Literal human firewalls.
Ann: Exactly.
Aminatou: Every single . . . you remember that stretch, that Obama stretch of years, where every single week they were trying to take our reproductive rights away?
Ann: Right, they were so angry. Yeah.
Aminatou: It was so obnoxious. But also you did have this sense that she's the only one standing in the breach. It's her and, you know, that's the only person that we have to speak for us.
Ann: Which is obviously not true but also, yeah, it was really -- so she is a very important figure I think when I think about what does it mean to stand up and be very vocal about the things that you believe in in the face of a lot of institutionalized opposition.
(4:50)
Aminatou: Yes. The other thing too that's very fascinating and we're going to get into with her, it's how do you take an organization into the modern age? Because . . .
Ann: A hundred year old organization.
Aminatou: Right. It's like so much of Planned Parenthood is like, you know, it's like the equipment is still the same. [Laughs] The people are still the same. There's not a lot there that's changing.
Ann: Except the laws which are getting worse.
Aminatou: Exactly, the laws are getting worse. Those are going backwards. But our definition of who it is that gets the services at Planned Parenthood has changed, and to see how they embrace technology so wholeheartedly, they were really, really inspirational in getting a lot of other progressive orgs to become more trans-friendly and have visibility there. It was something that was really cool to see happen. And yeah, there's nothing stale about the mission of Planned Parenthood and it has kept up with the times.
[Interview Starts]
Aminatou: Hello Cecile Richards. Thank you for coming on Call Your Girlfriend, I'm so excited.
Ann: Yeah, it's so great to be here with you.
Cecile: Oh my gosh.
Aminatou: I'm like freaking out a little bit.
Ann: I'm sweating only slightly.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Thanks for writing Make Trouble.
Cecile: You're welcome.
(6:05)
Aminatou: We were saying earlier that Standing Up, Speaking Out, and Finding the Courage to Lead -- My Life Story -- is kind of an iconic title.
Ann: It's an aspirational subtitle for us.
Aminatou: I'm like this is a lot here.
Ann: Like these are all things I would like to be able to say I have done in my lifetime.
Cecile: There's still time. There's plenty of time.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Well, so one of the first things about you that I didn't know is you studied history which can feel like one step forward, two steps back sometimes. Are there any kind of activist moments or movements that you look back and you draw inspiration from?
Cecile: Well I did study history at Brown although I feel like I studied history and I kind of minored in troublemaking at Brown. [Laughter] So I wouldn't say I was the best student ever. But I actually did study revolutionary history which was really interesting, you know, looking at what had happened over the years. And one person I was really inspired by was Emma Goldman who was way ahead of her time as being not only a revolutionary and a troublemaker but also a real feminist. I mean her iconic quote "If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your resolution" which I always loved because it seemed like it did something that I hope I do a little bit in this book which is to say troublemaking is not only -- I hope can somehow change the world for the better if you're lucky, but it also can be an incredibly joyful life and these things can go hand-in-hand.
Ann: So do you have a definition of making trouble or troublemaking?
Cecile: Well, I mean I hope it's a little bit tongue-in-cheek, and of course my idol, the person everyone would wish they could grow up to be, Congressman John Lewis always says "It's okay to make trouble as long as you're making good trouble." So I do like to think that this is about how do you challenge the status quo, speak up to authority, do things even if you might get in trouble? Because change and social change in this country and around the world never happened because someone waited their turn or asked permission; it's because they just did it anyway. And again it's interesting right now, this moment in the country, where we just see so much. Everything is challenged. I think every fundamental and a lot of progress that we've made is challenged. So many people have stopped me and said "I don't know, what should I do?" And I hope that this book is sort of a homage to all of the people out there who are trying to figure out how to make a little trouble in order to go in a better direction.
(8:30)
Aminatou: So I think I told you this when we spoke at South By Southwest on that panel about how I went to UT 50% for breakfast tacos and 50% because of your mom.
Cecile: Very good reasons.
Aminatou: I was like I want to go to school in Texas. When I was reading your book I was like why did you leave Austin to go to the east coast? It had everything. [Laughter] So thinking about -- you know, thinking a lot about what a big personality your mom was and all of that did you feel you were growing in her shadow and you had to carve out a space for yourself?
Cecile: Well the funny thing about my mom, Ann Richards, who was the governor of Texas, is that most people -- yeah, folks will ask me "Oh my god, it must've been incredible having this feminist icon as your mom." But for most of my life she was a housewife as we said back in the day. She was raising four kids, never really got to have her own life and own voice in many ways until I left for college. So I wouldn't say I grew up in her shadow but it was really exciting to see what she did with her life and I love the fact that, you know, it wasn't until she actually ran Sarah Weddington's race for state representative, the very young lawyer who'd argued the Roe v. Wade case, that she had a real "job," a paying job, and it changed everything for her. So I like to think now at this time where people think it may be too late it's never too late to have a great life and to do something bold and daring that you never thought you could do. But yes, partly I'd spent my entire life in Texas and so it was pretty exciting to get out and see a little bit of the rest of the world.
Aminatou: Wild. [Laughs]
(10:08)
Cecile: Also I would say the breakfast tacos when I was growing up, they really were not as good as they are now.
Aminatou: Okay, yeah.
Ann: Innovation. So when you were 30, is that right, is that when you moved back to help your mother with her race for governor?
Cecile: I think that's about right.
Ann: And I'm curious about -- so you're 60 now, is that right?
Cecile: That's right.
Ann: Which is shocking.
Cecile: To me too.
Ann: If you could time travel back to that 30-year-old self who was helping on that campaign what would you tell her? Or what would she need to know do you think?
Cecile: Well of course I came back -- I was a union organizer and my husband and I packed up the Uhaul with our daughter Lily who was I think at that point two and drove back to Texas to help mom and her race. And I mean there's a lot of things I think, I guess if you were going to go back and create the perfect environment, that maybe you could do. But I'm so glad that we didn't because we didn't have any better sense than to just think oh, well mom wants to run for governor? We can do this. Forget the fact that she's a progressive, divorced woman and no one's ever done it before. And that's I think what I try to tell in this book is that if you wait until everything's perfectly lined up you'll never do it and I'm actually kind of grateful that I guess I was as naïve as I was because no one ever gave her a chance of winning. It was really more this oh well, let's just try it. And then of course she did win and she mainly won because grassroots people just came out in droves that had never gotten to really be involved in politics before which I think is a good lesson for these times when we're seeing women, people of color do historic things in elections that people would've said were unwinnable just a few years ago.
(11:45)
Aminatou: Ann and I were talking earlier about just watching you on TV so many times testifying before Congress or giving a speech. And, you know, for an abortion warrior you don't seem very angry or terrifying. [Laughs] As trigality would like us all to believe.
Ann: Which is how we would be on the witness stand, screaming.
Aminatou: Yeah, screaming, flipped tables, and just not -- it's like I'm sorry, what? And your advice is really practical. It's down-to-earth. It's very direct. Is that a strategic choice or is it just your personality?
Cecile: Yeah, I would like to think that my life has been strategic but it hasn't been. [Laughter] I mean I think like a lot of women we just do the next thing that needs doing.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Cecile: Like when I found out I was pregnant with twins on the campaign and I had to -- I was going to basically travel around enormous in maternity clothes campaigning for mother it wasn't like I had a choice to say okay, well I'm going to like -- I'll just sit this one out. So I just think that's how a lot of our lives are. It's funny though going back to the congressional hearing, and I feel like I kind of keep unpacking some of the layers of that, and at the time of course it was terrifying because I knew I was going to be on national television.
[Clip Starts]
Male: If you want to be a private entity be a private entity but you don't need federal dollars in order to do this.
Cecile: I don't use federal dollars to do that, sure.
Male: You do to run the organization. Planned Parenthood . . .
Cecile: Excuse me.
Male: Planned Parenthood has given Planned Parenthood Action Fund more than 22 million dollars to exercise what -- to involve in their lobbying expenditures and their advocacy efforts.
Cecile: None of these -- none of the dollars that you are discussing are federal dollars and the Planned Parenthood Federation of America receives almost no federal dollars. I think at this point only $21,000 for a clinical trial network for birth control.
Male: It goes to the same organization and you just separate all that out.
Cecile: It is highly accountable.
[Clip Ends]
Cecile: And I knew that it wasn't really a hearing. I knew that really the purpose of this was to try to humiliate me, embarrass me, try to demonize Planned Parenthood. And so that was terrifying but the interesting thing that I think happened as a result is if you just didn't take the bait and you don't let particularly the men who are on that panel who are just angry, they really wanted to get in a fight.
Aminatou: Yeah.
(14:00)
Cecile: And if you just didn't flip the table and didn't get down in the mud with them they even got more frustrated. And that's when I saw the veins popping, you know? [Laughter] And that -- I think it actually at the end of the day turned out to be a great opportunity to educate millions of people in the country about Planned Parenthood. We gained supporters after that hearing and a lot of people turned out to become activists that hadn't been before. So in a way it had -- it had a good, an unintended consequence I think from the folks who had actually called the hearing in the first place.
Ann: Yeah. I think that, you know, metaphorically or big picture wise it can often feel to many of us like we are one woman standing before a bunch of men with veins popping out of their neck who just want to get into a fight.
Cecile: Yep.
Ann: But having that be literally true in your experience and being there, I mean I totally understand the notion that the best course of action is to just let them get angrier. Like that -- you were prepared going into that. But did you ever . . . did you get home that night and feel like I'm so angry or upset? Did that come out in some other way?
Cecile: Well I think one thing that happened during the middle of the hearing, I got a text from my son Daniel who always sort of comes up with the most hilarious thing in whatever episode of my life. And he texted me in the middle of the hearing and said "Mom, you're doing so great. I'm watching you on TV. I think raising me all those years really helped you prepare for this panel." [Laughter] And I thought you know, he's not half wrong. So part of it was just been there before a bit. And of course it was exhausting. I thought is this ever going to end? Because it went on and on and on. I remember leaving the hearing feeling absolutely exhausted and kind of getting a little teary-eyed. But then I didn't have -- like a lot of women I didn't have a chance to do the next thing. I was actually -- I had to go on Rachel Maddow that night so it wasn't like you get to go home and just collapse. But it also showed me what I, again, I hope it's just a theme for women in this day which is you can always do so much more than you even know you can. And oftentimes we don't have a chance to wait until we're ready. In fact I think that would be a good theme for these days which is start before you're ready.
(16:20)
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, a lot of the advice that you give, it's very practical, especially for younger women who want to work in nonprofits or want to do mission-driven kind of work. You know, not to go back to that same testimony again but when Jason Chaffetz asked you about your salary it was so infuriating because the implication is that if you are a woman and you have commission-driven work nobody should pay you. You should do it out of the kindness of your heart. And probably also they're mad that you make money than them. [Laughter]
Ann: Like a real activist.
Cecile: That was actually what they were mad about.
Aminatou: Yeah. Just like, you know, they can't make as much money as you make and you're a monster. So what would you tell all these young women who want to work at non-profits about the compensation that they deserve?
Cecile: I think it's really important, 1) and something I frankly never was able to do which is speak up for myself and advocate for myself on the job. Because I think a lot of us that work in advocacy and non-profits, I mean we do it because we're driven to that kind of work. But I think it's incredibly important that women -- I actually talk about this with my daughters. How do you kind of steel yourself and prepare yourself to go in and say well I think I'm worth at least what the guys are making? Because as we know still women aren't paid equal to men for the same work. Women of color disproportionately are not paid the same. I just think it's a skill that we need to develop that we don't necessarily have. But yes, that was a classic example of trying to humiliate. I think because they couldn't find any factual things wrong with Planned Parenthood so they had to go after me personally and most of the attacks felt personal. Also Jason Chaffetz obviously didn't have his facts right because of course he's one of the famous, as Rachel Maddow says, the chart that had no Y axis. [Laughter] That I think just got him. He was mad then because he'd been shown out to be basically misrepresenting Planned Parenthood from the get go and there is nothing they like less than being embarrassed.
(18:22)
Ann: Right, yeah. Human woodchuck hybrid Jason Chaffetz.
Cecile: No longer in office Jason Chaffetz.
Ann: Yeah, important qualifier.
Aminatou: He's probably going to start a podcast any day now.
Ann: Oh my god. I'm curious about take us back to when you decided to step into this role at Planned Parenthood because I mean so much of being a leader at any organization is being the human embodiment of that organization. And as you were just saying that is -- that comes with some very personal consequences when the organization is, you know, defending reproductive rights or working on issues that are so historically contentious. So were you aware of just how much you would be synonymous with the organization and were you comfortable with that decision at the beginning? And how did you feel about it as it kind of went through the years?
Cecile: Well it's so funny because I was concerned about going to the interview but for a completely different set of reasons. It would never occur to me oh, this might not be a job I'd want because it's contentious because pretty much everything I've ever done in my life is contentious or made somebody mad. I was more concerned about going to the job interview because I was just sure I didn't have the skills to do it. And again I find, you know, I've done this all my life and this is also something I see women do a lot which you go "Well I've never run anything that big. I've never taken on such a huge, important organization." And of course secretly, you know, what if I fail? How nervous I would be.
(19:50)
And so I remember I almost didn't go to the interview. The search room had called me so I was like oh my god. I called my husband and I said "Can you imagine having the chance to be the president of Planned Parenthood?" But then I almost didn't go and I called my mom from a coffee shop and she said "What are you saying?" She said you are . . . [Laughter] Because I think she spent her entire life trying to get women to just take the next step. She said "You know, the only things you'll regret in life are the things you don't try and just get out there." It felt like she was a stage mom pushing me out there. And thank goodness she did. And so I've tried to carry that out not only for myself but also for a lot of women that I run into who will say things like "I don't have the right degree or I don't have these certain skills." And I never -- I never have men say that to me. Never. So I just hope we can kind of get over that. But anyway it never occurred to me to not want the job because it would be a source of controversy. I didn't have any idea exactly all the controversy we'd get into but I feel like every single moment, as my friend Dawn Laguens who works with me at Planned Parenthood says, you know, if the idea is to make lemonade out of lemons we're a freaking lemonade factory at Planned Parenthood. [Laughter] That's what we do every day.
Aminatou: That's so wild to hear you say that about the interview because I think to a lot of us you're also synonymous with the person who brought Planned Parenthood into the 21st century and just that embracing of technology, embracing of the new vocabulary and realities that we have around gender, and how it felt seamless at points and it felt very modern. And what is different since you left Planned Parenthood?
Cecile: I mean I did have a lot -- I just want to say this to women who might be listening: there were so many things I didn't know how to do, right? So I just want to disabuse anyone of the idea that you come into these jobs and you've kind of got it all together. I do think that we have by luck or by intention done a few things that have been important for the organization. One is we invested in young people. I remember when I first started Planned Parenthood, when I would go to an event, women of a certain generation would come up to me and say "Where are the young people? We did all this, we won all these rights, and now they take it for granted." And you know 12 years later I never hear that anymore. Never. Because there are young people everywhere at Planned Parenthood and they have changed the organization in so many ways.
(22:15)
We did invest in technology. It just seems the whole idea of the Internet and Planned Parenthood is like a marriage made in heaven, because if the idea is to get information and care to people without barriers, the Interwebs, that's the best. We now have about 2.5 million patients every year but I write as we began to build the web presence we have 6 million plus visitors every month now. We're selling birth control online.
Aminatou: What?
Cecile: We're texting and chatting. I'm telling you! We just did this amazing research for a self-injectable birth control that you can take home. It lasts for three months. And we just got it through the FDA that you can go and basically get a year's worth of birth control, four shots, and take it home and not have to go to a clinic. I mean this to me is if you look at technology and reproductive technology and then you hook it up with Planned Parenthood, the healthcare provider to so many people, that's when I don't care, Congress can try to defund us. Congress can try to do a lot of things. They can't uninvent the Internet and that to me is a real opportunity for us and I hope we're exploiting it in every way we can.
Ann: Yes! Speaking of other exploited opportunities when you think about this political moment that we're in I feel personally pretty conflicted about both the possibilities of a lot of people who haven't been personally affected by unjust policies in this country -- I mean frankly like a lot of pretty financially-comfortable white women waking up in this moment being a huge opportunity . . .
Aminatou: Yep.
Ann: At the same time it's hard to really be like there's a silver lining when so many people's lives are under more direct threat. And I'm wondering how you think about those questions in this moment or if you share my ambivalence. [Laughs]
Cecile: No, of course, because you're right there is this outpouring of women. A lot of other people, folks who have -- are now woke if we would say that. But it's at the sacrifice of a lot of people in this country. I mean it's just heartbreaking at Planed Parenthood to see -- it's harder for immigrants to come in. We serve everyone. We don't care your immigration status, your gender, your gender identity, nothing. But it is really sad and makes me angry to see the struggles that people have just to get affordable healthcare in America and so many other things that we can talk about in the criminal justice system, gun violence. I mean just what's happened over this last week is just so incredibly maddening.
(24:40)
So we have to though maximize this opportunity to change the direction of the country, but I look at elections. They're just a way station. This is just, on the road to social justice, elections aren't everything. And what I do think is important right now, you know, women of color have been really carrying on their back electing progressives to office for too long and it is absolutely time that white women do more and step up more and talk to each other and really do the hard work that we need to do. And it's important to recognize that even if the Democrats or progressives win in November that's not the end of the story; that's the beginning of the story because we can't just have one party take over and then not actually fight for the kind of justice that people deserve in America. So I think we have to do both of these things and that's what I'm really . . . so if that's the conflict I just feel like it's important to recognize that just a ping pone ball of one party or the other doesn't fundamentally change power. And to me investing in grassroots, recognizing that the important leadership that's happening in America is not happening in Washington, D.C., it's happening in Alabama and Wisconsin and Virginia and a lot of places where we need to have more people active, more people registered, more people voting, and finally more equity in who is in office.
[Music and Ads]
(28:55)
Aminatou: One of the topics that I was pleasantly surprised that you talked about a lot was that work/life balance in the book. How do you draw boundaries for yourself when the work that you do is so personal and it's so mission-driven?
Cecile: Okay, so true confessions, if you read my book which I hope you will whoever's listening it is not going to solve the problem of work/life balance.
Ann: What?
Aminatou: What?
Cecile: Super honest because . . .
Aminatou: As somebody who's read it it has solved my problem.
Ann: She's a new woman now, yeah.
Aminatou: I also don't have kids or a husband or a big job. Problem solved.
Cecile: Look, I'm not saying that work/life balance is a myth but obviously I've been very privileged because my work has always been work that just brought enormous joy to me even if it was hard sometimes and even if it was a struggle and long hours. And there's a lot of people in this country, they don't have that option. I mean I organized low wage working women for years who they didn't get to choose to work at Planned Parenthood or work in the labor movement; they were working in the local nursing home because that was the only place they could actually get a job. And so I think it's incumbent on us to yes, preserve our sanity, do the things that bring us joy, and also remember how privileged we are to actually work in work that makes a difference in people's lives. And so I try to keep those women in my head.
(30:20)
And then, yes, you've got to find things you love to do. I love to cook. I love to cook with my kids. I find enormous joy in that. I like to go meet new people. I like to travel. So I have a full life but part of the real way to me you bring work/life balance is loving your work. It just makes it a lot easier.
Ann: And what about other types of balance? On this podcast we're always joking/not joking about all money being dirty and the dirty game of capitalism. But it speaks to a real dilemma that I think we think about a lot and that a lot of our listeners think about which is everyday ways you're spending your time and money. How specific and granular do you get with your ethics and your point-of-view? And as someone who has this deep background in labor organizing and is also thinking about the big picture as well do you have any kind of daily decisions where you're like ugh, I'm torn up about this but I do shop at this place? Do you have boundaries you set for yourself in terms of your personal lived politics like that?
Cecile: Oh my god. Well I don't -- I try to shop as little as possible, but not because I'm torn about it, because I just hate shopping. So I'm just going to be honest, that's not even a . . . I would love to say that's an ethical dilemma.
Ann: Sure, sure.
Cecile: It just seems like it's a necessity of life. But otherwise, no, I think the important thing is -- particularly for folks like me that I've spent my entire life in social justice and the labor movement and the progressive movement -- and obviously one of the joys of that is now being able to give back. So I love to support abortion funds. I love to support struggling organizations, because I remember I started a couple organizations myself. I talk in the book about what it's like to start a non-profit when it's like basically you, your grandmother is your donor, and your children are your volunteers. So I remember what it's like to try to stand up something that seems like a good idea but is really hard to do. And so maybe that's one of the things I try to think about is not just what are the really big, important "successful" organizations doing but what are people trying to do that is really pushing the edge of the envelope? And doing things that are hard. So maybe that's what I'd say.
(32:28)
Ann: Do you have any small organizations that you want to shout out that you love? Some of those?
Cecile: Oh my god, I fear if I started doing that then it would really be -- you know, I don't want to disadvantage anyone. One of the people though that I've gotten to know over the last couple of years in this work, and they're not even small and struggling anymore because they're just amazing, that's Color of Change.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Cecile: So Rashad has become a friend. I really not only like to support him but I learn from him and I mean I think there are reproductive justice organizations that are really -- they've been on the forefront of explaining the intersection of all these issues long before it was popular, long before a presidential candidate uses the word intersectionality. So I'd say Monica Simpson at Sister Song is really impressive and a whole network of women that are, particularly in some of the southern states, where it is just hard. It is just hard. The women there are facing so many barriers to everything so I'm proud of them.
Aminatou: Can you tell us more about the Texas Freedom Network? The org that you started to fight against right-wing textbook censorship and why you started it, how you started it, and what's going on with that?
Cecile: Yeah. So as we've talked about I grew up in Texas, lived there a lot of my life. I ended up there because mom -- you know, we ran her campaign for governor. And then she got beat for governor, her reelection as people -- some people will remember -- by George Bush who then went on of course to become president. And I saw in that election that the rise of the right-wing, and particularly what was then known as the Christian Coalition, was hugely influential in Texas and really reshaped the Republican party which used to be kind of full of some moderates, some conservatives, a little bit of this and that. And they also started taking over school boards. They elected people to the state board of education and started wanting to censor textbooks and so I thought someone ought to do something about this. And then I realized maybe that someone is me.
Ann: [Laughs]
(34:30)
Cecile: And so I said to Kirk "I think we need to start an organization that fights for religious freedom and public education." Then as it grew certainly reproductive rights and now the Texas Freedom Network works on all kinds of stuff. So I started that organization again in my living room. My grandmother gave me a hundred dollars which has to be the biggest check she had ever written in her entire life and Hannah and Daniel, my twins, were little and so they would come back after kindergarten and they would fold up flyers and do mailings for me. But now it's continued on and actually it's a big progressive force in Texas. I'm so proud of what people have done there. I would've hoped like many of the progressive things we start that it would've outlived its importance or usefulness but unfortunately in the state of Texas it's become even more important to have a fighting force taking on, oh my god, the legislature, the governor, the lieutenant governor, the attorney general. As we know I think we're in a pretty dark period in terms of Texas politics right now.
Ann: When you think about all these intersecting and various issues that you are so invested in do all of them feel just like the longest game? Like you're like oh my gosh, decades from now maybe we'll still . . . you know, you made that comment about I hoped this organization would make itself not necessary, right? I'm curious about whether the long game is depressing or invigorating. [Laughs] Or maybe neither.
(36:00)
Cecile: I really do think if you're not fighting for something that's hard and it's going to take forever you haven't picked a big enough target. And so I think whether it's the fight for racial justice, for women's rights, for LGBTQ rights, for immigrants' rights, these are fights that we are going to be engaged in a long, long time. But I do think it's really important as progressives that we stop every once in a while and say amen for the things that have changed even as we recommit ourselves to the fight ahead. And I think that was one of the things that was important to me even during all the tumult during 12 years at Planned Parenthood, to me the most important moment in my time was the day I got a phone call from President Obama -- love to say those two words together and remember that there was a moment when that was what was happening here -- but when he called to tell me that we were going to get birth control for all women in this country at no copay in insurance. And that was . . .
Aminatou: Chills.
Ann: [Laughs] I'm so happy just hearing you re-say that, yeah.
Cecile: It was one of those things where you think, you know, as we say with progressives, you lose, you lose, you lose, you lose, and then you win. And when you do win it's such a big thing and now that's -- again as we know the Trump administration is trying to take away birth control from women but folks just aren't having it. And that to me was -- I knew in that moment that it wouldn't just change the lives of folks who came to Planned Parenthood; it would mean millions of women. And in fact that's what we found at Planned Parenthood. You know, they started taking copies on their cell phones of their CVS receipt that said zero copay and sending them to us. And now we're at the lowest rate of teenage pregnancy in the history of America.
(37:45)
Again we've got a lot to do and it's very uneven the progress we've made and we really have to recommit I hope and believe into equity. But we do have to stop and celebrate the times when we actually win.
Aminatou: I just got chills. I forgot what it's like to win.
Ann: It is amazing how quickly you forget right?
Aminatou: I know. One day we'll win again. [Laughs] It's a lot. I have a practical book writing question for you.
Ann: Can you tell us how to write a book?
Aminatou: Yes, can you tell us how to write a book? What was one thing that was hard about writing the book and one thing that came very easily?
Cecile: So one thing is -- because I was doing this while I also was working at Planned Parenthood and am working at Planned Parenthood. So yeah, it's a lot of weekends and took a couple weeks in the summer. One thing that's essential is I could not have done this book without Lauren Peterson who is my . . .
Aminatou: Yay, Lauren!
Ann: Yay Lauren!
Cecile: Yay. Again, a woman who I have the good fortune to know, used to work with me at Planned Parenthood, worked with Hillary.
Aminatou: She's the best.
Cecile: Then somehow was willing to come back and help edit and find stuff and track things down. So that's the hard thing is like doing it all by yourself I can't imagine. So yeah, find Lauren Peterson. [Laughs] See if she'll do this.
Ann: Lauren, call us.
Aminatou: Yes. [Laughs]
Cecile: But I think that it actually came easier writing, although I'm sure Lauren is laughing, saying "Oh, yeah, you think it was easy? I had to do a lot of cleanup my friend." But I think I was just kind of busting out with stories I wanted to tell. And some of them were of crazy times, you know, being pregnant with twins on the campaign trail and trying to find pantyhose that would fit. You know, when I was working with my mom or some of the joy and heartbreak of working on President Obama's campaign or Hillary Clinton's campaign. But the other thing that was just so joyful to me was getting to tell the stories of people that I met along the way. One of the amazing things about Planned Parenthood in these last 12 years is I can remember high schoolers I met 12 years ago. And in fact one of them just came back to see me, her name's Lindsey Schwisher. She was in Kalamazoo, Michigan. She was a high schooler going off to college. Now she's been to the peace corps. Now she's back.
Aminatou: Wow.
(40:00)
Cecile: Now she's going to get her masters and she came back and visited me. It's just like the stories of courage and resilience that I got to see every day, and some of which I've tried to write in the book, made this so much easier. Because I think these are people that folks can just relate to, just doing the next important thing.
Aminatou: How did you know that this was the time to tell those stories?
Cecile: It was really right after the election when I couldn't get on a subway or walk down a street or be in an airport without someone running up to me and saying "What am I supposed to do?" Honestly as if there was one thing they could do that would somehow make it all go away and everything would be okay. And of course that's just not how . . . that's just not how making real social change happens. There isn't one thing. But the interesting things is it may be the one thing you do. You really never know. And so I really wrote this book for all those people because I thought I'm not going to be able to talk to everybody at every airport but at least I could put some of these ideas down in a book. And so I hope this is sort of a call to action and maybe an inspiration.
You know, I think back to this last year. We went into this administration, Paul Ryan saying almost the first weeks on the job, "We are going to have a bill on President Trump's desk that is going to defund Planned Parenthood and repeal Obamacare." And there was literally nothing we thought we could do to stop it but people went out and tried anyway and spent months organizing and showing up at town hall meetings and writing Congress and coming to Washington. And you know what? We beat it back every single time because of that outpouring of people around the country. Our eyes are open all across the United States of America, and so who knows which call or which town hall meeting turned the tide? All of it mattered.
(41:50)
Aminatou: Right. If I could go back to myself in January and say "You know, actually Paul Ryan's not going to check anything off his to-do list . . ." [Laughter]
Cecile: And it wasn't because he changed his mind. It wasn't because he's changed his mind, it was because -- and we know there were members of Congress cancelling town hall meetings because they just did not want to have irate women in pink hats and shirts. I remember one of them in Colorado who literally tried to run out the back door only to be met by all these women in pink. And I went to Paul Ryan's own district and I write about Laurie Hawkins, one of the women I met there, who was a Planned Parenthood patient in his own district. And she was so upset. She'd never really been an activist but she brought her daughter all the way to Washington, D.C. to try to meet with him to say she has her daughter because of the healthcare she got at Planned Parenthood.
The other day I got a note that someone says, you know, you've been used as a reference for someone who's thinking of running for office. Do you know Laurie Hawkins? [Laughter] And I'm thinking Kenosha, Wisconsin. There we go. And so that is -- that to me is the real anthem for this last year is people just saying okay, time for me to do more than I've ever thought I could.
Ann: Going back to something you said earlier about being bursting with stories to tell . . .
Cecile: Yeah.
Ann: Do you keep a journal? Do you keep track of that stuff? How do you know exactly what you wanted to tell or need to tell?
Cecile: I don't. I don't really keep a journal. I'm sure that would've been a good idea but that ship's kind of sailed. So I guess anyone listening, yeah, I'm sure writing a journal, that sounds like a good thing to do. I remember people -- I don't remember anything else. I don't remember the history classes I took at Brown but I remember the people I've met. And over time I do a lot of public speaking and I try to tell the stories of the people I meet. And in fact sometimes Lauren and I will be on the road and I'll say "Yeah, remember that eight-year-old kid in the capital in Texas and when he was doing this?" So anyway it also helps to have somebody who's been on the road with me a lot. But bringing those folks to life is pretty fun.
(43:50)
Ann: Wait, so this cute notebook you have sitting here is not your journal?
Cecile: It's not my journal. This is my to-do list which I think is a super different . . .
Aminatou: It's the same thing. It's the exact same thing.
Cecile: It says here, number one, "Send cherry pie recipe to radio person who asked for it." So that's the kind of thing if I don't write it down I will forget.
Aminatou: You can send it to us too at callyrgf@gmail.com.
Ann: Or send actual pies, we'll eat them.
Cecile: That might even be easier.
Ann: Yeah, okay.
Aminatou: I think taking notes to remember -- that's what my journaling is. It's just notes and what I had for breakfast.
Ann: Yeah, mine is random.
Aminatou: They're not real sentences in there. It's bullet points of the day.
Cecile: Okay, good. I just wanted to disabuse you of the idea that this was something brilliant here. It's really memories.
Ann: I just think power ladies always carry around a notebook like that and I always want to know what's in it, you know?
Cecile: Well I mean we have to, and particularly when you're raising three kids, I mean somebody's always got to go to the dentist or something's always happening. There's a school play or something.
Aminatou: Okay, so when you quit your job did you go away? What's your version of the Obama world tour vacation?
Cecile: Yeah, right.
Aminatou: What's your version of that?
Cecile: Yeah, I -- hmm, that's a fantasy. And actually I haven't finished at Planned Parenthood. I'm not leaving until May so I haven't had that moment yet, and of course May is already booked up with a lot of stuff. It's funny. And I'm not leaving -- and I like to say I'm stepping aside. Not really stepping down because I'm going to be in this fight for the rest of my life. It's so important to me. I really am focused though on these November elections. Again not just "winning" but actually ensuring that women are having every opportunity to participate in the elections whether it's as candidates, as activists, as campaign managers. Because as we know a lot of the laws have been passed to present people from voting. They disproportionately hurt women and women of color and women with low incomes and so we have to do extra special work to make sure they can participate. And if we do they'll get elected and people who support women will get elected and that'll be worth it. So that's what I'm going to do, this sprint between now and November.
(46:00)
Aminatou: Why don't you run for office?
Cecile: Oh, you know, I've thought about it before sometimes but there's never really been the right thing that I wanted to do and I also . . .
Aminatou: I have a district in Virginia to sell you. [Laughter]
Cecile: Well it is kind of crazy. So many great districts. I mean there's just been like an outpouring of folks running. In fact it was so exciting, the last Virginia races were electing the first two Latinas to the state assembly, the first transgender woman to the state assembly. Even in Texas -- I hate to say that. I love Texas, okay? I'm a Texan. But it's not been an easy political time. The first two Latina congresswomen, barring some unforeseen event, are coming to Congress next November. That brings me as much joy as running myself. And at heart I'm an organizer and I love bringing people together and maybe giving them the tools and whatever support they need to live their best life including running for office.
Ann: So obviously the show is about friendship and women's friendships in particular. Who are the friends who have gotten you through hard times? Or who are the people you call when you just can't figure out what to do about something or when you're feeling really low and you need that support and feedback?
Cecile: Wow. Well my friend Patti who lives in Austin. Most of my girlfriends -- best girlfriends -- are still in Austin so that's kind of hard being up here in the big city, New York. But she and I raised our kids together. Her son, Jess, went to school with my twins Daniel and Hannah so she's a good touchstone. She's also from Louisiana so she understands all the things that are important in life like food and music and she's an old soul. She's someone -- you know how you have friends who they've been around before? I feel like Patti has got that kind of zen attitude.
Aminatou: I love that.
(48:00)
Cecile: And then I would say the other -- this may sound really strange, but my kids. They're my best support network. I mean they are all in their own ways sort of part of the resistance. So we're as likely to either . . . I mean we certainly share barbecue shrimp recipes together and things like that and I try to write in my book what it's like to have kids who you love to cook with and love to do stuff with. But they're so committed to social justice and so sometimes when I need a boost I call them. Yeah. My eldest daughter Lily is working for Kamala Harris now in the United States Senate and so also I call her to find out what in the world is going on in Washington? So it's nice to have an on-the-ground source. Yeah.
Aminatou: The deep state you mean.
Ann: Exactly, inside info. Yeah, yeah. [Laughter]
Aminatou: So what are you excited about next? I know that sounds super cliche and everybody will ask you that but what are you super excited about doing next?
Ann: Also it's okay if the answer is just pie. You can answer this question in any way you want.
Aminatou: Yeah, we are having cherry pie today.
Cecile: I have been making a few pies in the last month. So I guess I'm excited about 1) making sure this transition at Planned Parenthood is good and solid and that we're going through and they'll pick a new president. I do think they're as strong as they've ever -- or we are as strong as we've ever been. Actually sorry, can I just throw in this little factoid? Because I love to.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Cecile: We actually now have nearly 12 million supporters in the country.
Aminatou: Wow.
Cecile: More than twice the size of the NRA.
Ann: Yes.
Cecile: So just wrap your head around that. If all of Planned Parenthood's supporters voted in this next election we could really run the table.
Aminatou: Or we could start an orical (?) toxic shock syndrome.
Cecile: I like that.
Aminatou: Take on the NRA. This is my fantasy.
Cecile: No, I just think it's really important that if we participate in the way that we should. So I am focused on that and making sure we run through the tape in November but I'm also interested in talking to women. I'm going to go do kind of a listening tour with women, talk to them about -- and listen really. I think there's a lot of women in this country who feel like government just is not paying attention to what their daily concerns are. And it's not radical, revolutionary, new ideas; it's like making enough money to support your family. It's like getting equal pay. It is making sure you can get access to affordable healthcare. One of the interesting things I saw this last year in the big fight to defend Planned Parenthood and Obamacare is women are hot and bothered about losing their access to healthcare. And it didn't end. I actually think they're going to carry that right into November. So I want to do more to lift women up, do whatever we need to do, make sure they can participate. Then when that election is over fight for the things that women need.
Aminatou: We'll call you about starting a podcast I think.
Ann: Hot and Bothered with Amina, Ann and Cecile.
Cecile: Oh man, I've got a million ideas where that came from.
Ann: Really?
Cecile: Indeed. I don't want to share them all. I don't want to share them all because you have to read the book called Make Trouble.
Aminatou: Yes, buy Make Trouble. The cover alone is iconic, like millennial pink. But Planned Parenthood was millennial pink before anyone else.
Ann: Planned Parenthood pink.
Cecile: Oh, is pink like a millennial color now?
Aminatou: Yes, the millennials have appropriated pink from Planned Parenthood.
Cecile: That's cool. It's open source. [Laughter]
Aminatou: No, the cover is legendary. You want it on your bookshelf.
Ann: And also the subtitle, yeah.
Aminatou: Also you'll want to read it. Like that's the other thing.
Cecile: Well I hope that's true. I think it's a readable book. I mean . . .
Aminatou: Oh, it's very readable.
Cecile: I hope there's some parts that make you laugh and some parts that might make you cry, but more than anything else that maybe could inspire folks to take action.
Aminatou: I mean I think it's the best of everything. It's like part biography. You get all the juicy stuff you came for. You're like ooh, who's Kirk?
Ann: Who's Kirk?
Aminatou: Who's Kirk?
Cecile: Behind-the-scenes. You know Gayle King? She says she's in love with Kirk now. I don't know.
Aminatou: I mean, listen, Kirk sounds like a champion.
Cecile: Yeah, I'm going to keep him back under wraps.
Ann: Also the question do you know Gayle King?
Cecile: No, but it was really funny.
Ann: Oh sorry, yeah. No, I mean she's . . .
(52:10)
Cecile: Well no, she just interviewed me and she's like Kirk, oh my god, love Kirk.
Aminatou: I mean, yeah, you know, Kirk's the support system so you get that. You get the juicy biography stuff that you came for then you get the historical important mom stuff that you came for. Then there's the practical day-to-day this is how you be a bad-ass leader. I don't know, you make it seem very accessible and very much so that everybody can draw something out of themselves. You know, you don't have to emulate other people; you just have to find the thing that you care about and do that. Like that is your passion.
Cecile: I think that's so well put and that is how I feel, and there's no genius to how we're going to change the world. It's not like there is one thing. It is everybody doing a little more than they thought they could. As we like to say if you're not scaring yourself a little bit you're probably not doing enough so just do one more thing that's a little harder.
Aminatou: I'm scared. [Laughter]
Ann: Can we do anything a little harder?
Cecile: No, you all are cool. You're good. You're good.
Ann: Dispensation.
Aminatou: Dispensation. Okay, so Hot and Bothered with Cecile, Amina and Ann coming to you this fall.
Ann: It's going to be a television show, please. We'll get Gayle involved.
Cecile: I like it. I like it. Edited by Gayle, that's right.
Aminatou: And maybe she'll bring her friend Oprah.
Ann: Oh my god, stop.
Aminatou: Maybe Stedman will come, and Kirk -- Stedman and Kick will become friends.
Ann: Huge.
Aminatou: That whole thing.
Cecile: All right.
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.
Cecile: I'm Cecile Richards. See you on the Internet.