Hi, Haters
1/30/15 - We discuss men in jeggings, playing through the (period) pain, naming your baby Nutella, and confronting your internet trolls.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Lany - Bad, Bad, Bad
Dan Lissvik - Airwalk
Coin - Run
BOUQUET - Stacks on Stacks
Hannah Rad edit - Call Your Girlfriend
TRANSCRIPT: HI, HATERS
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distances besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda skiing and sunning ourselves which is why we are so chill for this week's episode, men in jeggings and worrying about balding, women playing through the pain, specifically period pain, naming your baby Nutella and other products we would like to name babies after, Lindy West confronts her troll, and the shine theory of Girlhood, a great new movie.
[Theme Song]
Ann: Okay, so tell me -- tell me why you are so chill and happy right now.
Aminatou: Dude, I'm so chill today. Like nothing can faze me. I even had my first San Francisco burrito. It's been seven months and I still hadn't had a burrito.
Ann: From where?
Aminatou: I don't want to say because I'm afraid of the burrito police. Mission. [Laughs]
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: Shout-out to Catherine who recommended what I should get, but I will say this: the burrito was just okay. It was good but it was like eh.
Ann: It's no Chipotle huh?
Aminatou: You know, the Chipotle burrito is delicious. Ann, I know that you're trolling me but listen. The other day at work we had a marketing branding thing and one of the number one brands on the highest brand score was Chipotle and everybody else was really surprised. They were like what?
Ann: Wait, what is a brand score?
(1:54)
Aminatou: It's like how recognizable and beloved your brand is.
Ann: I mean that's true, Chipotle has just turned aluminum foil into a marketing opportunity.
Aminatou: Okay, first of all you're trolling me again.
Ann: It's true.
Aminatou: Chipotle is a fantastic brand.
Ann: I'm not trolling you.
Aminatou: No, it's true. Shout-out Bobby Finger.
Ann: I'm legit not trolling you right now. I associate tinfoil-wrapped things with Chipotle.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's true.
Ann: I swear I'm not.
Aminatou: But anyway the Chipotle burrito is fine and this Mission burrito was like eh, it was okay. Anyway, I'm super chill. I was in Park City this weekend.
Ann: Oh my god, you have to say "I was at Sundance." That's like saying "I went to a small private school in Cambridge, Massachusetts."
Aminatou: [Laughs] I went to the Sundance Film Festival. It's a film festival, right? I had a blast, and if you know me I usually do not have fun when it's cold but I was freezing and I had a good time. I liked cute every day. I wore my thermal base underwear, what's up?
Ann: Did you have like a cute outerwear solution for Park City?
Aminatou: I just wore like many, many, many, many layers. I mean yeah, I had a really cute camo coat that I've been rocking and I got a lot of compliments on it. Thank you. It was inspired by Kim Kardashian because nobody does neutrals better than Kimye.
Ann: Not now anyway.
Aminatou: Not now, not ever. [Laughs] I don't know, the secret is just to wear a ton of layers. I won't lie, the altitude really kicks your butt so I was drinking a ton of water, not really drinking alcohol. So, you know, none of these are usually optimal conditions for Amina fun. I had a blast. [Laughs]
Ann: Did you ski? Did you have a downhill . . .
Aminatou: I went skiing. I went skiing on the last day I was there and too much fun.
(3:52)
Ann: You know I'm scared of skiing right?
Aminatou: Why?
Ann: Anything that celebrities die doing, heroin, skiing. There's got to be other examples I don't really fuck with.
Aminatou: Oh man, baby giraffes. So scared.
Ann: I mean also there's that factor which is that my coordination resembles a baby giraffe learning to walk for the first time and if you put me on skis and send me down a mountain I will collapse.
Aminatou: Dude, I will say this. I didn't have a lot growing up but I got boojie white people sports so shout-out to my family. [Laughs]
Ann: You also love tennis, it's true.
Aminatou: You know I love tennis. I love sailing. I love skiing. Just going places where black people don't belong and reclaiming the space, Ann.
Ann: I mean there is no transgressive way for me to participate in sailing so I'm glad you do it for this family.
Aminatou: [Laughs] We'll go on a . . . man, now I really want to go skiing with you. It's so fun. This is what I realized, there are a lot of things about my personality that I'm like eh, iffy about. But I get really excited when I do things that I'm scared of and I just like go for it, like nobody's going to die.
Ann: Also you were scared of skiing too.
Aminatou: I mean years ago I was. And I hadn't been on skis in, you know, like a minute. Yeah, it was great. I'm genuinely afraid of snowboarding though. I don't think you should have both feet strapped in the same direction. That's not God's plan for you.
Ann: What is the exit strategy with snowboarding? Seriously.
Aminatou: Just die. That's how it ends.
Ann: It's like best-case scenario is a tree separates you from the snowboard on your way down, right?
Aminatou: No, totally. I mean I had a blast. I hung out with our good lady friend Dia Olapadi.
Ann: Oh, shout-out.
Aminatou: That lady looks good in the snow.
Ann: Did she pack her own skis again this year? That woman likes to travel heavy.
Aminatou: No we unfortunately did not go skiing the same day because she had to leave to go study for the bar. She's going to be the nation's best lawyer. [Laughs] If she chooses to be a lawyer.
(6:00)
Ann: Amazing business card line, the nation's best lawyer.
Aminatou: I know. You know, like as endorsed by CYG. Went to some really fun parties, met some really interesting people. Yeah, I'm so high off of Park City. Didn't meet a single Mormon. Just putting that out there. [Laughs]
Ann: Park City is like the Mormon no-go zone of Utah. It's like covered in a salt circle or whatever you do to, I don't know . . . it's like a segregated . . . there's a barrier or something.
Aminatou: I know. One thing you would've loved is all the small businesses like the alpaca store, the Sabra hummus house.
Ann: Oh my god, there was a Sabra hummus house?
Aminatou: Obviously sponsored. Oh, so obviously met a lot of famouses and that was really fun but what I really want to open your eye to is to the SWAG situation.
Ann: I'm not surprised. I assume wherever there are more than two famous people gathered there are also free products.
Aminatou: Yo, I am swimming in Mophies, headphones, like Birchbox out the wazoo. I got a full Sorel coat and boots.
Ann: Jesus.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, the SWAG is out of control. Like go for the SWAG.
Ann: And I was excited by the idea of a hummus hut.
Aminatou: I mean the hummus hut is legit. Don't knock the hummus hut.
Ann: I was in the desert while you were in the mountains.
Aminatou: Aww!
Ann: With a bunch of women. I know, you were missed. But, you know, got to understand some years are different climate power summits.
Aminatou: You know I'm just trying to build our brand among powerful people. That's what was going on.
Ann: Listen, I understand and I love you no matter what. But I had a pretty chill time in the desert where I did nothing but snack and nap and go from a sort of warm outdoor pool to a very warm indoor pool and thrift. That's kind of what I did.
Aminatou: Oh my god, that sounds delightful.
(8:05)
Ann: It was really delightful. The first time I put on pants with a zipper was today and I was like what is this?
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: So confined. I was not ready to come back to the land of the, I don't know, not 100% stretch.
Aminatou: Ugh, so oppressive, zippers.
Ann: It is. I feel like that was the perfect transition. I didn't even do it intentionally.
Aminatou: I mean yeah, you didn't even do that intentionally. [Laughs]
Ann: I know. I swear I didn't! I was just looking at my leggings and thinking how happy I was to be wearing them. I kid you not.
Aminatou: Ann I'm so happy because when I met you you were not a leggings person and clearly I don't believe in pants that are real. [Laughs] I just want to wear stretchy things all the time.
Ann: Listen, I'm a woman who can admit when I was wrong. I was wrong on leggings.
Aminatou: Ugh. Man, so you know, leggings' other cousin jeggings is having a moment right now. Did you read this article on Man Repeller by Rob Fishman about men's jeggings? It's so man 2.0 because even women are very divided on jeggings. I think women who don't wear jeggings are on the wrong side of history. So to hear a man come out in favor of jeggings I'm just like ugh, everything.
Ann: I mean subversive really.
Aminatou: Amazing.
Ann: I think there are a couple things in play, right? Jeggings are quite the reveal if you have male anatomy.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Okay.
Ann: They are! There's no real way, unless you're wearing some kind of, I don't know, protective modesty garment, you're kind of out there if you're a man in jeggings. Right?
Aminatou: It's true, but yeah, I feel like all skinny jeans are -- it really puts the dudes out there. Was it you that told me the story about your acupuncturist or somebody who was seeing all these hipsters because they had veins burst because their jeans were too skinny?
(10:10)
Ann: I don't have an acupuncturist but I might've passed along an anecdote from someone else's acupuncturist because that sounds very familiar.
Aminatou: Someone we know told us this story and I was like man, it's hard being a dude in the pantaloon era.
Ann: I mean look, if your options are super, super tight 2006 era hipster skinny jeans or jeggings that's a no-brainer. You're just jeggings all the way.
Aminatou: That's true, you know? I think the other thing at play here too is athleisure is having a moment. Everybody just wants to be casual, comfortable, and still look fly. I support this.
Ann: This is also, what is . . . oh god, what is the article I read in I want to say it was British Esquire about . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs] Tell me.
Ann: I know, right? I read it on my phone in bed when I didn't want to get up. It was like when you follow a link from Twitter and end up reading an entire feature-length article because you're avoiding your day. Is that just a freelancer problem? But it was about what do they call them, sport-o-sexuals? Spornosexuals. [Laughter] Oh my god, mom moment. Spornosexuals.
Aminatou: Oh my god, I feel like you're describing me.
Ann: Which is basically people who want the . . . men, sorry, not people. Men who want the "Brad Pitt in fight club" body as if this is a new trend.
Aminatou: I mean how are they getting this body?
Ann: I mean like eating only chicken breast and other protein.
Aminatou: Well Ann I'll tell you what the trainer told me at the gym the other day.
Ann: Tell me.
Aminatou: Abs are not made in the gym, they're made in the kitchen. [Laughs] You've got to eat clean if you want to have those washboard abs.
(11:50)
Ann: I feel like men in jeggings is at the center of spornosexuality and athleisure.
Aminatou: I mean I love it. Also, you know, I love a man who's not afraid to wear something that's considered girly and pull it off. It's perfect.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: The one thing I will say about this article is so the author bought his jeggings at Uniqlo and then he got them hemmed or whatever, like he got them tailored, and he's like the jeans cost me 29.90 and then the same price to hem them. Life tip: don't ever take anything from Uniqlo to get tailored somewhere else because they will tailor it for free for you at Uniqlo.
Ann: Oh my god, is this a sponsored post? I mean . . .
Aminatou: I mean Uniqlo call me. But yes.
Ann: Can they automatically lengthen things as well? Because that's a service I could really use.
Aminatou: I mean probably. They're good people at Uniqlo. Okay, I'm done saying nice things about Uniqlo because they don't pay us.
Ann: Right, okay. Get in touch if you would like to pay us to endorse your leggings.
Aminatou: Exactly.
Ann: Ugh. I mean I don't know.
Aminatou: This is so real.
Ann: What are the odds of jeggings becoming a real thing?
Aminatou: Okay, so here's the thing about jeggings, right? They're literally only jeggings if you tell somebody else. Nobody has to know you're wearing jeggings because they look just like jeans.
Ann: I don't know. I've heard that on the pajama jean ads and really they don't look like jeans. I'm sorry.
Aminatou: Okay, no, Ann, you have seen me in jeggings many times.
Ann: Oh I know.
Aminatou: You have seen me in jeans very few times. The belt line is basically where you can tell. If you wear something that covers -- yeah, that covers the zipper and buttons nobody really has to know.
Ann: Right. Men's fashion tunics on the rise.
Aminatou: On the rise.
Ann: Kanye on the forefront of this one again.
Aminatou: Oh man. I mean, listen, that's what Kanye said about leather pants. They wouldn't let him and now everybody has a leather pant. He's right.
Ann: The rise of the tunic is what's necessary to complete the rise of the jegging for men because it is a waistband issue.
Aminatou: It is a -- oh, waistband, that's the word I was looking for. Ugh, English, so hard. I don't know. I support every man who wants to wear jeggings. Just do it. It's basically the fashion sweatpant of last year. I like gave fashion sweats to almost every dude in my life last year because they're everything. Just relax. Just relax and buy clothes that you enjoy.
(14:25)
Ann: Ugh, endorse. Again if any makers of jeggings want to get in touch we will try them. And endorse your product.
Aminatou: Forever and ever and ever or we'll make the men we know wear them.
[Music]
Ann: Oh, I kind of wanted to bring up tangentially related to the jeggings thing did you read this article about men worrying about balding?
Aminatou: No, but isn't that like every day?
Ann: Well it was just a funny . . . it was an article in The Cut that was like arguing women are better-prepared for certain types of aging because women are sort of hit with messages that their looks are deteriorating basically from puberty onward and men when they realize they're balding it's the first time it's ever occurred that they might have a downtick in their sexuality.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And there is just something I don't think it's actually feminist to say like oh, it's great that really stringent body image standards are now being applied to men as well as women but I would be lying if I told you I didn't take serious satisfaction in the article and the fretting men are doing with this specific body part.
(15:50)
Aminatou: But I feel like it happens really young. Yeah, because I was talking with a man recently who had like balding fears and I just didn't realize what a big deal it was. I was like uh, isn't the solution just to shave off your head -- it's just hair? Like shave off your hair? But apparently it's not just hair. I feel like even as young girls we all saw our boyfriend Prince William go through it so you just adjust. It's a way of life.
Ann: Mascot for male-pattern baldness.
Aminatou: No, totally. I personally don't think it's a big deal but I also am not a dude and I have all of my own other issues to deal with. But yeah, genuinely surprised at what a big deal it was.
Ann: Right. I understand why it might be a shock when you've spent your entire life thinking that you don't have to worry about your looks and that you're only going to get better with age then suddenly you're forced to question that. Then have to decide -- have the internal fortitude to be like I am better with age even if I am bald.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I mean that's sort of like women going from their 20s to their 30s in a nutshell.
Aminatou: I know. Man, women just better equipped to everything.
Ann: You know, that's what it is. I secretly love articles about how women are better equipped for the world. Sorry.
Aminatou: I mean really we are. Yeah.
Ann: That's why we've treated ourselves to stretch leg wear for so long.
Aminatou: Yeah, we already . . .
[Ads]
Aminatou: Ugh, men, late to everything.
(18:35)
Ann: Time to talk about menstruation.
Aminatou: Yes, let's talk about menstruation. I'm so excited about this. You do not watch tennis, correct?
Ann: No. The aforementioned boojie white people sport didn't really make it to Iowa.
Aminatou: [Laughs] This British tennis player Heather Watson is playing in the Australian Open, she lost her game, and she came out and said it's because of her period. And I love that it was picked up by everyone in the media because they called it the last taboo in women's sports. And it really resonated with me because when I was in high school I played soccer and my soccer coach was also my P.E. teacher I guess and she was a huge witch. Like she was just one of those ladies that was really hardcore, like she was a runner, and even when she was pregnant she ran every day until the day the baby popped. She's that kind of woman. And one of the rules that she had both for the soccer team and for P.E. was that you can never use your period as an excuse to miss P.E. or a game or whatever.
(19:45)
Ann: That is harsh. High school periods are real.
Aminatou: Uh, Ann, and we know me. I bleed like a gunshot victim.
Ann: Like hemorrhage, full-on.
Aminatou: It was really heartening to see this tennis player really come out and say that and that women deal with these issues all the time. Even women who play high-level sports. And yes, it'll fuck up your game on any given occasion.
Ann: Right, if it feels like a baby wolverine is trying to crawl its way out of your abdomen it will fuck up your game. I always think about that when I have serious cramps. I think baby wolverine with claws extended trying to get out. But listen, so I was talking about this with a friend who is a former dancer and she -- I was totally shocked to hear her say "Oh, what's the big deal? Yeah, you just suck it up and play through it. There's no way around it so you just play through it and why bother talking about it because you shouldn't get any special dispensation for having your period."
Aminatou: Wow.
Ann: I know! And I think that there's this attitude that comes out. I read this article I went through in my head all the times when I've been -- granted I've never been paid to do anything athletic with my body, but you know, times when I've been like oh, I have to do this really important presentation and I'm at baby wolverine DEFCON level pain. It is true you don't get a pass but I also think it's fair to say this contributed to why I didn't play my best today.
Aminatou: No, totally. You know, nobody knows more than women what it means to play through the pain. We know. We know it, especially women who have really the baby wolverine type periods so that's crazy. I just didn't realize that's a bias I had for a long time and realizing that a lot of women have that too. You know, it's just -- it's like basically your period is always a reminder that you're a woman, especially when you're in high-performance kinds of situations right?
(21:50)
Ann: That's so true.
Aminatou: Maybe we should give everybody like three days off on their period. I would support this.
Ann: Yeah, it's an interesting question too because I had a conversation once with a friend who has your type of terrible hemorrhaging periods and she made a comment about how day two, when it's the worst, I take a sick day every single month and I've been waiting for my supervisor to notice that I'm on a 28-day schedule or whatever it is. And I really admire that to sort of be like actually it's a personal day that I really need to take and I'm going to take it every single month if I need it.
Aminatou: Dude, I never even thought of that because I was too busy playing through the pain. What a fool.
Ann: Get those leggings on.
Aminatou: Put your computer on your uterus, watch some TV.
Ann: The modern woman's heating pad.
Aminatou: Yeah, please. I love it when it overheats.
Ann: Computerus is my favorite.
Aminatou: Computerus. Yeah, you know. Oh man, little Heather Watson, she's so good. I just loved her in her interview. She's like "It's just one of these things I have, girl friends." I was like yes, please let her live.
Ann: It's funny though. It is such a taboo though because women have uteruses has long been a justification for, you know, all kinds of discrimination in sports like women can't ski jump because they have uteruses. Actual position of the International Olympic Committee.
Aminatou: Ugh. No, true. Or like that first woman who tried to run a marathon. That's always my favorite picture when it comes up on Tumblr. It's like this woman trying to run a marathon in the black and white days and all of these dudes are so threatened by her they're trying to yank her off of running.
Ann: I'm just trying to find this photo because I haven't seen it before and I'm listening to you and Googling at the same time and just Googled woman marathon.
(23:45)
Aminatou: It's like it'll -- it legit pops up on my Tumblr dashboard like once a week and empowered ladies are like ugh, they wouldn't let women run marathons because they're so scared of us.
Ann: Oh my god, I just found a narrative retelling of the first woman to complete a marathon.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, she's like a total shero. She needed to go to the bathroom and shit and couldn't stop. She dressed like a dude. It was serious. But you know the flip side of all of this too though is that I don't want to make it seem like it's okay for any time you're not performing at your best, maybe like "Are you on your period?" Because I will kill anybody who says that.
Ann: That's for me to know, not for you to assume.
Aminatou: Totally. I wish that if somebody asked you that your body's immediate response was to bleed all over them.
Ann: Like the Shining elevator as it just bursts forward.
Aminatou: No, seriously. [Laughs] Like die in a fire.
Ann: Ugh. That's really meaningful to me right now.
Aminatou: Seriously.
Ann: There is something about as well the way women are comfortable with period gore. I mean Carrie vibes, right?
Aminatou: Dude, total Carrie vibes.
Ann: And the way men are just so profoundly uncomfortable with period gore.
Aminatou: But here's the thing, not every woman is comfortable with period gore. I feel that basically the kind of period devices you use determines how comfortable you are with your body. So I feel like the o.b. tampon is the first stop to hand in your vag, I'm all up in here and I'm not afraid of blood, you know?
Ann: I'm not afraid of blood but I feel that . . . I don't know, you're saying I'm not comfortable with blood and that's why I haven't gotten the full Diva Cup?
Aminatou: No, I'm just saying the Diva Cup ladies are like full gore and I support that. You know, please, we're o.b. tampon ladies in this family. We appreciate the gore.
Ann: Oh my god, another key sponsorship opportunity. We would shell for o.b., let's be real.
Aminatou: Well, I don't know. Are they still not making the ones that we love? I always have to buy the vintage ones. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Ann: I know exactly what you're talking about. I have a stockpile.
(25:55)
Aminatou: I'm always going into weird bodegas, like nooks and corners, being like "I want the oldest o.b. tampon box you have here."
Ann: "I don't want your pro moisture lock plus or whatever plastic coating you put on a formally perfect tampon."
Aminatou: I don't want any of that garbage. I want the old-school ones. Yeah, but you know, I remember the first time I tried an o.b. tampon. I'm pretty sure you were there. We went on that road trip and there were no other options and it kind of changed my life. That's what it takes to get into the gore of the whole situation.
Ann: The sponsorship writes itself. You just wrote it. I can see it as clearly as if it was crossroads or something.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yeah, it was like somewhere in Kansas I'm pretty sure.
Ann: Aww. Such tender memories.
Aminatou: Tender memories. Also the first time that good lady friend Laura Shipley gave me Vitamin B for a hangover. [Laughs] And in that same gas station I peed and freaked out because my pee was electric yellow and I thought I was dying and Laura was like don't worry it's the Vitamin B.
Ann: Ugh, yes.
Aminatou: Core ladies. Core ladies.
Ann: Core ladies giving you natural remedies and loaning you tampons. Not loaning, giving. Sorry. That was not a loan.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Man, I guess now everybody knows all about our period situation. This is crazy.
Ann: I'm okay with that.
Aminatou: I mean I'm perfectly okay with it.
Ann: I feel like there are some lines I would draw, we don't have to get into all of my lines now, but I don't really mind talking about my uterine lining on the air.
Aminatou: [Laughs] This is how I know though that I roll deep in ladies and I'm surrounded by ladies. I was having dinner with two lady friends, Mary and Kate, that we love and Mary had invited one of her old coworkers to come to dinner with us and he's a dude. And we spent like 45 minutes talking about IUDs before I realized that I 1) did not know him very well and 2) he was horrified at the conversation. And I was like "How are you doing over there?" and he's like "I'm going to go home and Google IUD. That's how it's going."
Ann: Wow.
(28:15)
Aminatou: He was great though. He was a total champ. He looked it up on his phone. He gets it now. He's great.
Ann: You changed that man's life.
Aminatou: I mean or he'll just never talk to me again which we'll find out soon.
[Music]
Ann: This was an email from our dear friend Josh and the subject line is "Terrible Precedent for Baby Sriracha."
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: When I read that I thought it was about travel-sized bottles of Sriracha and I didn't know that those existed.
Aminatou: Me too, Ann. Me too. The little ones you put on your key chain.
Ann: I was very excited. It's not about that. It's about a French couple that named their baby Nutella.
Aminatou: Can I tell you what though?
Ann: Please.
Aminatou: The minute I clicked on the link and I saw the URL slug I knew it was French people. I didn't even need to read it. Because in French school in civics class we talked extensively about the responsibility of naming your child and things you are not allowed to name your child.
Ann: Did they give specific examples?
Aminatou: No, hateful examples like Hitler, like you cannot name your baby Adolf. Or like things that would ridicule your child later in life. And I feel like Nutella falls squarely under those parameters.
Ann: Well I don't know. I guess they could call her Ella. It does not mention -- oh, it does say daughter Ella. So hey, that's not such a big deal.
Aminatou: I know, but Nutella is too commercial. I'm on the side of the French government here. Ju sue baby Nutella.
(30:04)
Ann: So do you apply Scrabble rules? If it's a proper noun . . .
Aminatou: One hundo. You can't name your baby like Oreo. That shit's stupid. Yeah, what does it say? It would invite mockery or disobliging remarks.
Ann: Okay, let's play a game though. If you had to name your baby after a trademarked product.
Aminatou: Wow.
Ann: What would you name your baby? You don't have a choice. Your baby will die unless you name it after a product.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Then my baby's going to die.
Ann: Stop. Okay, I didn't even mean to give you an out. You don't have a choice. You have to name it . . .
Aminatou: I don't have a choice. Does it have to be a full brand or can it just be any kind?
Ann: Any kind of brand.
Aminatou: Man. I don't know, do you have an answer to this? Ooh, I know. Marie Callender. [Laughs]
Ann: Cop-out.
Aminatou: Boom.
Ann: Such a cop-out.
Aminatou: Please, that chicken pot pie's delicious.
Ann: I don't know. I don't have a good answer for this. I'm going to think about it.
Aminatou: What? You get to think about it and I get to make a fool of myself?
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: You have ten seconds. Ten.
Ann: I'm sitting in my closet. I'm going to name it after something like Baby Coach Bag or Baby Vintage Coach.
Aminatou: Baby -- please, Vintage Coach is not a brand. Your baby's named Coach. Sold. [Laughs] Baby Dooney & Bourke.
Ann: This is like how I picked an AOL screen name when I was a kid. It's like what can I see in my line of vision? I'll just use that. I have no idea.
Aminatou: Oh my god, I'm so ashamed of my AOL screen name I can never talk about it.
Ann: I mean I'm not talking about mine either. All I'm saying is naming things, a lot of responsibility.
Aminatou: Oh man. You know, but on the baby naming tip there is also a great article in The Cut about this.
(31:50)
Ann: Wow, we are just plugging The Cut left and right.
Aminatou: I know. It's almost like one of us works there.
Ann: Dude, it was not planned.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Say what you want. Some of us never plug our employer on here.
Ann: Also I'm not staff. It doesn't matter.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Anyway, Meaghan O'Connell who is like our nation's foremost mom blogger, and I say that with utmost respect, she wrote this great, great, great long-form piece a couple of months ago about giving birth that just scarred me for life. So anyway in The Cut she writes about picking the perfect baby name. 100% LOL. They didn't name their baby for a while because she was stressed out about what they were going to call it so they called it the baby. Like the whole thing is funny. You should read it.
Ann: There's a lot of pressure to pick a name super, super early.
Aminatou: I mean there is. But it's weird, right? It's culturally weird. So in Muslim culture, which my family's Muslim, you don't name the baby for seven days after the baby's born then you have this naming ceremony and it's all very cute and mystical like somebody whispers a name or whatever. My whole anxiety which I think if I ever have to name a baby I'll have a ton of anxiety around it because I want something that will translate well in English and French and I find that those names are few and far between. But also there's the whole I was reading about this a while ago. It's like if you're a person of color do you name your baby your ethnic name or do you give it a white name? Who knows? It's all stressful.
Ann: I mean I feel like there are a fair number of names that are not hard-coded in ethnicity right? I mean like I understand that many, many names are but I feel like if it's really important to you to have the most neutral of baby names on every front you can kind of -- there's always a safe baby name.
Aminatou: But that's the thing, right? It's like do you want to have a neutral baby name? I think it was a southeast Asia woman who kept saying her friends were asking her like "Are you going to name the baby something Indian or something white?" Who knows? Those are really stressful options.
Ann: Maybe this is why people give it up and go Nutella.
(34:15)
Aminatou: Yeah, no, maybe this is the solution, just name your baby after a brand. Baby APC, Baby Nike.
Ann: Baby o.b.
Aminatou: Baby Warby Parker. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god, young Warby on the playground in Brooklyn.
Aminatou: There's probably like ten baby Warbies. Ugh. Love. Warby's a good -- it's a good old man name. I love it.
[Music]
Ann: Okay, let's talk about something serious and important.
Aminatou: Fine Ann.
Ann: Did you listen to the This American Life episode featuring writer Lindy West?
Aminatou: Okay, way to bring this back down to earth. Yes I listened to it. You know I love This American Life. I listened to it on the plane on the ride back and I like cried on the plane, Ann. It was so intense. It was so intense the flight attendant asked me if I was okay.
Ann: Explain to people who have not listened why so intense.
Aminatou: So Lindy West is a fantastic woman who writes on the Internet who's just -- god, I love her. She's just one of those women who doesn't apologize for being a woman and is extra smart and just like extra everything.
Ann: I've definitely written her fan mail.
Aminatou: I mean maybe I'll write her fan mail. Hello Lindy.
Ann: She didn't reply and I still love her anyway because I know she's busy smashing the patriarchy with her hot fire.
(36:05)
Aminatou: [Laughs] No totally. So anyway she did this story for This American Life about confronting her worst troll and if you're a woman that's on the Internet you basically know the kinds of interactions she's talking about. Personally my favorite troll right now keeps changing their Twitter name to Call Me a Fat Nigger every day and it's been very exciting. You know, like some days I don't care and some days it cuts really deeply.
Ann: Sorry to cut you off. So did you block this person and because they changed their name they keep coming back?
Aminatou: So I block them every time and they come back as a different name but they use the same naming convention so I know it's the same person. It's like really terrible. Most days it just like makes me laugh. It's like yes, tell me something I don't know about myself.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And other days you're like having a bad day and it's frankly devastating.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: You know? But I also have nowhere near the role or following that Lindy West has so I'm like I can't even imagine what her corner of the Internet looks like.
Ann: And -- I'm sorry, I was going to say that Anita Sarkeesian also this week published screenshots of all of or many of her hate tweets for a full week and it's like you just keep scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling through rape threats. Anyway, but yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah, no. Just like women on the Internet, it's hard, and the bigger the footprint you have the more people just want to tear you down. So anyway, Lindy West's father had passed away a couple months ago and this one particular troll basically signed up for an account as her dad and was hurling just obscenities to her and she tracked this person down and interacted with him and frankly by the end humanized him. I ended up feeling so sorry for this Ann. But the whole interaction, Ann, it's just mind-blowing.
(38:00)
Ann: I know, I listened to it.
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like the thing everybody says is don't feed the trolls and she's like "Well I'm going to" and she interacts with this person and she's like "Why did you do that? How did you find this picture of my dad? Why me?" And it basically -- and I mean I believe that he is genuinely sorry but his rationale for doing it was basically you just . . . he's like "You just are too full of yourself and you feel like hot shit and you're confident and I need to tear you down." That was insane.
Ann: Her sort of recorded conversation with him was not the first time that she had broken that don't feed the trolls maxim. You know, in their conversation she mentions that she tweeted an excerpt from one of many harassing emails he also sent her and he says in the interview that he was ashamed when he saw her tweet. Calling out kind of worked. I mean he didn't reply to her and say "Gee, I'm sorry," but he felt bad. Between their conversation and him admitting that her directly addressing him was something that made him pause and think about what he was doing, it made me think of Mary Beard, another bad-ass lady on the Internet and off, who has pretty much made it a policy to engage in comments as well as on Twitter. And the New Yorker profile of her really outlines the fact that she has had similar breakthroughs with men who were trolling her. And while I don't think it's the obligation of women who are subject to all this hate to, you know, try to reach out and touch somebody troll-wise it's sort of interesting that . . . I don't know, I don't really know that don't feed the trolls is necessarily the best advice.
Aminatou: I don't know that anybody thinks that it's the best advice but it's the least emotionally consuming. The thing to me that was so insane about her interaction with this troll is like really getting to the bottom of what he did that broke her. You know, going -- it was so despicable to use her dead father.
Ann: Yeah.
(40:00)
Aminatou: In the way that he did, and there's no excuse for it and yet here we are. It took her reaching out to him for him to realize that oh, she's like a real live person with feelings on the other end of the computer. That was really crazy, you know? And I think to me that's the thing that terrifies me the most about trolls and even a lot of people I interact with online is how they don't think that you're a full human being with feelings.
Ann: But what's weird . . .
Aminatou: You're some sort of Internet machine who can take all of their weird shit that they project onto you.
Ann: They also though have this weird contradiction in what they do because in order to do what this guy did which is to Google Lindy west, find out that her father had recently died, find her father's obituary, create a Twitter account that's based on her dead feather. All of that is sort of textbook how would you hurt someone in a way that is the greatest hurt you could inflict via a Twitter account? It seems like he really thought about it and it's like in order to think about that you would have to consider this is a human being on the other end and yet he's totally shocked when he hears she's a human being who was hurt.
Aminatou: People are really petty. People will email you on a whim about something that you write or say and just feel that they have so much ownership about how you feel or what you should say and it's really unfortunate that women bear the brunt of it. I have another very particular troll who at least says that they're a woman online -- like I have no way to verify this -- and someday I'm just going to write this person back and be like "Oh my god, cut me a fucking break. [Laughs] You're also a woman. If anyone knows what I'm going through it should be you." Instead it's just this really weird word vomit projection. Ugh.
(41:50)
Ann: Right. Yeah. I've gotten so quick with the block button that I almost forget it happened. It's like I see certain words and it's reflexive. And so if you asked me -- like I was thinking about this when I read that catalog of all the harassment one woman received over the course of a week. I couldn't even tell you how many I get because I just block so quickly. I don't even keep track.
Aminatou: I know. You know, like I block a lot but sometimes you just don't know what the thing is that's going to make you just lose it, you know? It's just it's so despicable. Anyway go Lindy West. I thought this was -- I hate this word usually but I thought this was incredibly brave and humanizing and just she deserves all the best things.
[Music]
Ann: Yeah, I feel like we should talk about something else before we're done here. Just that was really . . .
Aminatou: This is kind of upbeat. I'll tell you about my favorite movie I saw at Sundance.
Ann: Tell me.
Aminatou: It is this French movie called Girlhood -- that's the international title.
Ann: What is the title in French?
Aminatou: Bande de filles but it doesn't translate really well because I guess in English it would be like A Gang of Girls and it should have a more positive connotation.
Ann: Gotcha.
Aminatou: You know, because you can't be like A Posse of Ladies for an international title. But also the director, I saw the Q&A with her and she was great. She wanted to have a positive connotation or whatever. And she goes also the big movie at Sundance last year was Boyhood so why not Girlhood? I'm like you go girl.
(44:00)
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And Ann the movie is amazing. It's basically a movie about carefree black girls. I saw the trailer on Tumblr months ago and the trailer was literally like a two-minute cut of these four young black girls singing Diamonds by Rihanna.
Ann: Oh my god! Just got a full body tingle.
Aminatou: So it's about these four girls who live in French suburbs which the suburbs in France, it's not like the suburbs in America. The suburb is the bad neighborhood. But it really focuses on this one girl in particular and how she tries to find herself and escape her family and really meets this group of girls and they just do everything together. There are just no French movies with black women at the center. It was really shocking to watch. It's like I'm 30 and I've been watching French cinema my entire life and it's the first time that I've identified with the movie ever.
Ann: That's incredible.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, I was like I don't know what that feels like. I was like oh, this is what white people feel like all the time when they watch TV. [Laughs]
Ann: That's like a white person eating dinner in front of the TV on Thursday.
Aminatou: No, totally. Like everybody looks like you, everybody talks like you, whatever.
Ann: And you're like "I had to fly to Park City, Utah and get into a special screening."
Aminatou: No, totally! And you know the movie touches on everything like these sexual taboos and the role of friendship. This movie is basically like Shine Theory (TM). These four girls are not perfect but they are each other's family and they're complicated and just they ride or die for each other. It was so beautiful to watch. And the movie's definitely, you know, like the female gaze is everywhere. There were these really chilling scenes where you're so aware of when there's a man in the frame because all of the characters make themselves smaller. It's very disturbing and amazing at the same time.
(46:00)
One of the things too that's so fascinating about this movie is it's directed by a white woman and obviously during the Q&A all these -- you know, everybody was like "You're a white woman. How can you write a movie about black people?" You know, like Americans performing social justice basically. And I felt if she had been an American director she would've been rattled and shut off her computer, you know, and she's like out of there. Like I'm never making another movie again. But she's totally this great French lady and she's like "Well, for one there are no black French film directors in all of France that are women. There are very few parts for black women in France also." And she was like "If I don't tell the story who's going to tell the story?" And also made the point that anybody can write fiction. You know, she doesn't have to be a black person to write about black people.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And the thing that was really cool is that Ava DuVernay, director of Selma, was in the audience of the Q&A and totally commended her for making that movie. She was like "This is a great movie. It's a great story. Thank you for telling black stories." I was like ugh, Ava DuVernay gets it. Why don't these weird white film students get it? I don't know. I have really strong feelings about this movie. I cried. It was good. It has Rihanna in it. [Laughs] It does the best rendition of Diamonds you've ever heard. So it's going to be out on limited release I believe at the end of the month. Please, please, please, please go see it. It's so good.
Thank you for listening to Call Your Girlfriend. You can find us many places online, namely on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download this podcast on iTunes -- feel free to leave us a review if you're so inclined -- you can also tweet at us at @callyrgf or email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Look forward to hearing from you.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: See you on the Internet, boo-boo.