Imposter Syndrome
1/16/15 - We discuss wardrobe pare-down techniques, as Ann records from inside her closet. Why red carpet season brings out the worst in the slovenly and opinionated. Women who don’t want other women to have abortions. Sophia Grace shouts out her girlfriends but where is Rosie? This week in Shine Theory, the delightful bestie-contestants on Masterchef, Jr. This week in menstruation, an IUD update. And, how to deal with imposter syndrome.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Mark Ronson - Leaving Los Feliz (ft. Kevin Parker)
Sophia Grace - Best Friends
Nena - 99 Luftballons
Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend
LINKS
Women who don’t want other women to have abortions
IUD update || Alison Turkos shoutout
Shine Theory: Masterchef Jr
TRANSCRIPT: IMPOSTER SYNDROME
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda, closet pare down problems, red carpet season and how it turns everyone into garbage monsters, Sophia Grace and her best friends video, women who don't want other women to have abortions, a quick IUD update and a side convo about flushing tampons, plus the Shine Theory on Master Chef Jr. and a reader -- sorry, listener question about impostor syndrome.
Aminatou: And we both have colds!
Ann: Ugh. You got yours in New York definitely.
Aminatou: I like how you're going to blame New York for this cold. I got a cold because of a compromised immune system and just life.
Ann: Yeah. I still have not come to terms with the fact that I have a cold. I have not acknowledged it yet, but . . .
Aminatou: You know, actually Ann I got this cold on New Year's Eve.
Ann: It's an L.A. cold.
Aminatou: I just remember this because I wasn't dressed appropriately. There were New Year's Eve shenanigans. Maybe somebody woke up in a pool. [Laughs] And I have a cold and I had to go to New York with this cold.
Ann: So you have only your own drinking habits to blame for this cold is what you're saying?
Aminatou: You know, it wasn't even that much drinking. Life, it just comes at you fast.
Ann: You know, winter is pretty gentle in L.A. as long as you don't sleep in a swimming pool.
Aminatou: Yo, it was snowing in Palm Springs and I was not dressed for that.
Ann: Ugh.
[Theme Song]
(2:03)
Ann: Since our last podcast I have moved to a new house and it has a big closet.
Aminatou: I saw it! It's huge.
Ann: It's big. It's like L.A. big and I have no possessions to fill it with. It's like living in a big, weird museum with no art except for the closet which has clothes in it and I am currently sitting in my closet where our producer -- lovely producer/podcast witch Gina Delvac helped me setup what is now my podcasting station. And I could survive a bombing or hide out and evade burglars all while this podcast is going on.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I'm actually doing a wardrobe critique at the moment and I'm just like . . .
Aminatou: Oh wait, there's shit in the closet and you're in the closet?
Ann: I mean it muffles the sound. You know . . .
Aminatou: I'm not a sound engineer. I just try to find out what goes on in your life.
Ann: The boss lady told me this was a good place to podcast rather than my echoy house that has no furniture in it so here I am.
Aminatou: Oh man, Gina, I need her to come over here because I saw a thing on Pinterest -- I was doing a Pinterest drive-by the other day. [Laughter] Really I was looking for recipes for my spiralizer then whatever happened happened. But I'm like oh, I could turn my closet into my workspace and just open it up and put my desk in there? And I was like hmm.
Ann: I mean I'm feeling very cozy right now. That's all I'm saying.
Aminatou: I have almost no clothes in my closet because I've been reading that Japanese lady cleaning guide, the Marie Kondo book, and I've thrown away everything I own. It's amazing.
Ann: Are you down to a uniform of five shorts, two pairs of leggings?
(3:50)
Aminatou: Ann I literally have nothing. Like nothing makes sense. I actually have to go shopping soon. [Laughs] For, you know, like coordinated looks. But literally her whole thing is you touch something and you're like does this bring me joy? If the answer is no, throw it away. That's everything in my life right now.
Ann: Is she the one who advises you to let go of things by telling yourself like buying this garment served a purpose in my life?
Aminatou: Yes. Yes.
Ann: And now I can let it go even if I never wore it.
Aminatou: Yeah, no. It's like the best advise for clothing. She's just like listen, that pattern suit, it was great for that time in your life, it served your purpose, and you don't need it anymore. You know, let it go. Hashtag. It's perfect.
Ann: Ugh, I struggle.
Aminatou: Yeah, you have a lot of clothes.
Ann: I know. I think the rule of thumb when you're cleaning out your closet is if you haven't worn it in a year, or the traditional pre-this enlightened new book way of doing it . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And I have so many things that I have worn maybe once a year or maybe twice ever and those two times I was so grateful to have it in my closet. And I don't know, I have some hoarderish tendencies, I won't lie, when it comes to clothing.
Aminatou: No, it's true. It's like things that mature in your closet, I agree. I think that for me I like to be mobile and owning too many things really stresses me out. I moved to this country with like a suitcase and a backpack and every couple of years I have to throw everything away just to remind myself that I don't need shit. It's just stuff and you can accumulate it again. Like obviously sometimes it's annoying. There's certain outfits that I'm like man, I wish I could recreate that or whatever. My whole thing is to get rid of all of my books this year also.
Ann: [Gasps]
Aminatou: I don't accumulate music and now I'm like I want to let go of books as well. I just don't -- like I don't need them. They don't bring me happiness. I read them. The memory's gone.
Ann: I did a book purge in 2010 when I moved away from D.C. and I still think about it.
Aminatou: I know, I inherited half of those books. [Laughs]
Ann: I still think about it. And right now I went to move my books and was obviously grateful I don't have triple the number of books I now have but I still think of the books I gave away five years ago.
(6:05)
Aminatou: No, I'm so ready to not have any books. I'm just like I read them. I'm really happy. If I really miss them I can buy an iPad and put them inside the iPad. I want to be able to run away at a moment's notice. So, you know, I'll keep you posted on how the book purge goes.
Ann: I cannot wait to hear/maybe come to San Francisco and put all of them in my car and maybe take them with me. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Maybe that's what I should do, I should just save them all for you. Because I have good books. I'm just like mama's not going to carry all of this. I'm currently working on my earthquake survival kid and it's very exciting for me.
Ann: Do you know you have to order water that doesn't expire? This was a thing.
Aminatou: Yeah, duh.
Ann: This is new for me.
Aminatou: You have lived here for how many years?
Ann: I used to live above a liquor store. I was not worried about stocking up on anything. My plan was to loot.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And now that I don't live above a liquor store I'm like okay, well . . .
Aminatou: My problem is that everything has to look nice so yes, I'm purging, but I'm also like hmm, design conscious. [Laughs] So this kit that I'm buying costs a million dollars. It's definitely a Swiss company. I'll send you pictures. It's gorgeous.
Ann: In the future it'll be the only thing in your house other than a phone and a laptop.
Aminatou: No, yeah, I mean that's my goal. I want a very minimalist house. What was that in that Vogue interview when Kim was talking about Kanye's house and she's like "It's very tonal." That's what I'm going for. [Laughter]
Ann: This is a good opportunity to ask you how you feel about Kanye's dictatorial attitude towards Kim's wardrobe.
(7:52)
Aminatou: [Sighs] Man, it's not like I'm taking off my feminist hat but I will say this. [Laughs] When you are in a close relationship with someone, as we know Ann, you don't shine if they don't shine. [Laughs] And Kim asked for Kanye's help. Let's look at what the product has been of him purging her closet: she was on every best-dressed this year and so he was right.
Ann: I wasn't saying Kanye was wrong. I just meant in general sometimes maybe you want the freedom to have your own questionable taste.
Aminatou: I know, but like I have bad tastes in some things but I pride myself in that I work hard to have that bad taste.
Ann: Sure. I'm staring at a floor-length tapestry vest right now so I feel you.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Oh my god, vests. Vests are coming back. You know, but like with Kim she's just like "Oh, I don't know. I was reading, I don't know, Lucky Magazine," and she just buys all the shit from there.
Ann: Do you think she actually uses . . .
Aminatou: I don't feel bad that her boyfriend upgraded her.
Ann: Yes. I mean in general I don't think upgrades are a bad thing. There are some people who legit hate thinking about what they wear or are the type to just say "Okay, page 96 in Lucky. Who cares? I'll try it." And so sometimes it's true, you want to capitalize on the strengths of your partner.
Aminatou: Exactly. Exactly.
Ann: I was just curious about the non-optional aspect of the Kanye makeover.
Aminatou: [Laughs] It's trickled down to other members of their family though.
Ann: That's true.
Aminatou: So, you know, Kanye's a good person.
[Clip Starts]
Kim: I show Khloe all the stuff that Kanye's stylists have kind of pulled out of my closet to get rid of and Khloe's freaking out. Maybe it was a bad idea to have her come over here and see everything that I'm going to get rid of.
Khloe: You know I love these.
Kim: I know. He said these are so ghetto.
Khloe: I love ghetto. You've got to have a little ghetto in your life.
Kim: No, I've got to change a little.
Khloe: No, but having a little oomph?
Kim: No.
[Clip Ends]
(9:55)
Aminatou: This is actually a really good segue to talk about award season and Golden Globes and all of that nonsense.
Ann: Award season when not having a TV comes home to roost.
Aminatou: I know, except that we've already talked about how you're bad at streaming. Like you don't need a TV to watch TV, but you know . . .
Ann: I tried for like two seconds during the Golden Globes and gave up immediately because I thought I was going to get a virus.
Aminatou: Yeah, except that E! has a stream. They have like an actual stream at e.com.
Ann: Only the red carpet, not the whole show.
Aminatou: Yeah, duh. Who wants to watch the show?
Ann: I mean there are jokes.
Aminatou: I think award shows are really boring unless you're getting an award. You know, it's like going to somebody else's work party and who cares? I feel like George Clooney's wife was just like the perfect example of this. She's just like I cannot believe I had to come to this dumb party for your work, you know? And to get dressed up and smile or whatever.
Ann: I love how her sort of let me smile through gritted teeth, I hate this, was interpreted as ultimate classy move of the night. Political on the runway. [Laughter] Can do no wrong.
Aminatou: No, totally, but I'm like she's a busy lady. She probably has to defend a dictator. She doesn't need to listen to these dumb jokes. She has stuff to do.
Ann: Or get her hair down for four hours.
Aminatou: So watching award shows -- yeah. It's like watching award shows I don't enjoy but I think also I don't enjoy them because watching award shows with Twitter especially is terrible. Most people love it. I hate it because everybody just turns into a sexist garbage monster when it comes to the red carpet stuff and it's really, really, really, really disheartening. I wish they would just ban red carpets altogether. Just have an AP photographer take pictures, put them up on the website. We don't need to see the stars parading their outfits.
(11:40)
Ann: I think it's an expectation problem that normal people who don't spend hours and hours every week to maintain their appearance -- I mean I guess not all actors do this, but I think there's an assumption that if you make any amount of your living as an actor you spend more time and resources to make yourself look great and that's doubly and triply true on the red carpet where the expectation is you should look perfect because you've had every resource at your disposal. This has been your sole focus for weeks. I think that the most feminist thing we could do for the red carpet would be to cap prep time at an hour.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And cap how much time you can spend on your dress plus spray tan, whatever. There's like a top dollar amount.
Aminatou: No, this is like so real. So I was talking to a friend who is kind of famous and she was telling me just how insane the whole process is, right? So you have to pay for your hair and makeup because unless you are in a nominated it's like a big deal movie then maybe your studio will pay for it because they're like we need you to go to this party or this thing, it depends. But mostly they're responsible for paying for all that stuff. It costs many thousands of dollars.
Ann: Oh yeah, of course.
Aminatou: Unless you have like a famous designer friend you also have to pay for clothes, jewelry, like all of this nightmare. You know, it costs a ton of money and it obviously costs more money for the women than it does the men, blah, blah, blah. But then you have these idiots at home who are also just sitting in their sweatpants, never look good. It's always the people I feel like have the worst fashion in my life who have the most things to say about other people's fashion.
Ann: Who get so indignant about the cut of Kristen Wiig's dress or whatever.
Aminatou: Yeah totally. Or like Rosamund Pike's dress this year was very controversial. I personally liked it. I thought it was risky. I love a lady in side boob. Sure it probably did not photograph well from that angle but she's like babely, right? And she's showing no skin and all these idiots at home are going "Ugh, give me two sheets of paper and construction paper. I can do that." And I was like you can't do anything. You can barely dress yourself for a regular Monday at your job.
(14:00)
Ann: Right. But again I think everyone sort of tells themselves that I don't have a thousand dollar per hour team helping me and therefore it doesn't matter what I look like, I can sit here and judge, and that's what it is.
Aminatou: It's that and it's also I think that people really just -- it's like fashion critique that's really hidden jealousy and people that they don't like. I think that it's so apparent. There are actresses that will never dress okay for regular people, right? And then some actresses actually don't dress super well but because the conventional wisdom is to like them nobody says anything. Like Kerry Washington's dress this year, hmm, you know? I'm like not the best, not the worst. There's nothing terrible about it but it was not like super glamorous or whatever and I felt like she got a huge pass because you're supposed to like Kerry Washington. I feel like Lupita also wore something really crazy last year. Oh yeah, at the Met designer -- what was it? At the Met Ball.
Ann: All bets are off at the Met. That's different.
Aminatou: I know, but she wore this thing that was crazy whereas these same people, they would not have been gracious towards her outfit. But again because people like her which is totally fine, she is a great actress, gracious lady, like no big deal. It just really irks me and it's like just be real. You don't have to like someone. Just let people be. It's okay to not -- to wear something that people don't love.
Ann: I'm also curious about how . . . I mean it's such a weird, as the shows are seemingly less and less important, the focus on the runway is just -- or sorry, not even the runway, the red carpet -- as like the real event is . . . I'm like make a better show and maybe we wouldn't be garbage monsters critiquing everyone on the red carpet.
Aminatou: I know, but those people at E! Fashion Police are the worst humans alive. This is where my like RIP Joan, we miss you a lot, but she was really mean about people's fashions and Kathy Griffin has basically turned into the same thing. When I am king the first thing that will go is fashion police. I think it's the most despicable thing that mainstream society does.
(16:12)
Ann: And it's also just this horrible, vicious thing where there's such an appetite for having a mean person critique that it was a built-in role that Kathy Griffin stepped into. But do you think she goes home at the end of the night and just has a little cry about having been so mean all night?
Aminatou: You know, I don't know but I have closely observed the arc of Kathy Griffin's career and the arc of her plastic surgery and how she's changed and all of this stuff. She's obviously somebody for who looks are really, really, really important, kind of like Joan Rivers in that same aspect. And I just . . . I'm like I get that. I get your insecurity. I get that being a female comedian is hard and there's something actually really subversive about refashioning your whole body to do that. But I think there is also a way to talk about people, like what people are wearing without policing their bodies, you know? And at such at platform. But also I remember on the Kathy Griffin Show a couple of years ago like for somebody who dishes it out to everyone she had just gotten divorced from this guy who basically stole from her and she refused to answer any questions about that and would get really emotional. And I'm like uh, you don't think Lindsey Lohan gets emotional when you talk shit about her all the time? [Laughs] Very thin skin. Oh my god, Kathy Griffin is going to come back and eat me alive one day.
Ann: I mean I think we are expressing empathy with the Kathy Griffin experience so if anything she's going to critique your silky blouses and the fact I admitted I have a carpet print vest.
Aminatou: [Laughs] But you know, whatever. We look good.
Ann: I know.
(17:55)
Aminatou: Like even when I look like trash I look good.
Ann: And you didn't spend eight hours getting ready.
Aminatou: No, totally. I mean if I had eight hours to spend -- god. It's like every time I take a shower and I go out and people are like "Oh, you look good," I'm like hmm, reminder, I look like trash all the time. [Laughter] I'll wear like one coat of mascara and everybody's like "Oh wow!"
Ann: It is true. I remember a coworker of mine once making a comment about how she showed up to work -- she was someone who didn't wear a ton of eye makeup but she always wore makeup every day and she came into work one day without any mascara or eye liner or whatever on. I was among the people who asked her if she was feeling okay, and I don't remember my motivation, if it was like I can just tell something's different or if I was like you seem to put makeup on every day and you didn't . . . I don't know what my thought process was.
Aminatou: You were like "You look tired." [Laughs]
Ann: But maybe because we were the only two women in the workplace at that moment she kind of took me aside and was like "Listen, most days I wear mascara. Today I didn't. Everyone keeps asking me if I'm sick."
Aminatou: Yeah, no, I'm the complete opposite. I wear no makeup at all. Shawnee -- our good friend Shawnee Hilton kind of challenged me to wear a little makeup as a like wake up a little earlier and take care of yourself and be more conscious about what you . . . you know, whatever, meditate in the morning kind of thing.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Aminatou: I did it for a couple of weeks and I won't lie it felt great but it's also hilarious to go into work and all of my dude coworkers who never pay attention to me are like "Oh, you look great today." [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: You know, and they don't know what quite is different.
Ann: I think the lesson here is to set . . .
Aminatou: Like ooh, I washed my face for you today. That's what happened.
Ann: Right. I think the lesson is to set the baseline at I do minimal upkeep then people will be like "Ooh" as opposed to setting a really high standard for yourself then having people ask if, you know, a relative has died when really you just didn't put on mascara.
(19:55)
Aminatou: I'm like brushing . . . I'm like brushing my teeth in the shower. I don't have time. I am trying to sleep for as long as possible in the morning, right?
[Music]
Ann: Speaking of people who are overly made up you want to talk about Sophia Grace?
Aminatou: Ann, that is really hurtful. [Laughs] I don't know why you're pushing the boundaries of this friendship but you really are right now. Sophia Grace is perfect. [Laughs] Obviously you're referring to the BFF video that I love. We all met Sophia Grace when she was eight years old and she did the most banging rendition of Superbass and performed it with Nicki Minaj. My favorite was when she was on The Ellen Show and Nicki's to Sophia, she's like "Stay in school Sophia." [Laughter] Sophia Grace obviously did not listen to her advice because now she's eleven and she's a rap mogul. The song is great, it has great K-Mart product placement, but I will say this: I'm very concerned. Rosie, Sophia Grace's hype friend lady, is not in it.
Ann: Noticed.
Aminatou: And that's very disturbing to me. Where did Rosie go? They're BFF. Why is she singing a BFF song without Rosie? I need explanations.
Ann: I mean off-brand. Just going to say that. I feel like . . .
Aminatou: Ugh, Ann she's so good though. She's so -- it's like song of the year. It's classic. Nothing will beat it for me this year. Nothing.
Ann: The thing about Sophia Grace's moves in that video, I have not seen those moves since Ke$ha's Tick-Tock video.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You're just trying to hurt my feelings. It's not working. It's not working.
(22:00)
Ann: I'm sorry, I have to -- which is a knock against Ke$ha, not Sophia Grace, even though also kind of like you Ke$ha. Won't lie.
Aminatou: I mean, Ann, we love Ke$ha in this friendship. Stop it.
Ann: I know. I'm just -- I'm feeling I don't want to put myself in the Kathy Griffin role at this moment.
Aminatou: [Laughs] If at all possible please don't.
Ann: I know. Anyway, so this is not to say, you know, I'm supportive of the message of this song but, you know, I kept thinking about the filming of this video and about how many takes they did of her just throwing both of her hands up, kind of with a bend at the elbow in a like Baby 2 Chainz move.
Aminatou: She's a professional. It was probably all one long take.
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: She's so good. Also I just love these 11-year-olds all BFF. They're all singing about boy problems and I'm like I don't . . . I didn't talk to any boys until I was 22 so I can't really understand what's going on there. But I love that they're just so pro-lady, like ladies are just getting younger and younger. What's going on?
Ann: Also the video is a definitive answer to an often-asked question which is can you have more than one best friend? Sophia Grace says yes which is the correct answer.
Aminatou: Yes. Ugh, at the expense of Rosie of course. Ugh.
Ann: I know. I know. I mean has anyone interviewed Rosie? Where is Rosie?
Aminatou: I don't know, where is Rosie? I've been asking, like I ask people all the time. I'll hear somebody with a British accent and I'm like "Where's Rosie?" And no one . . .
Ann: She better not be duct-taped to a chair in Sophia Grace's basement.
Aminatou: You know, maybe Rosie's parents were just like this rap mogul life is not for us. The problem is Rosie was a really good hype lady. That's the problem. So, you know, it's like the video is perfect but with Rosie it would've been super perfect.
(23:55)
Ann: What is the deal with Sophia Grace's parents? I feel like to negotiate the sponsorship deals and the placement in this video . . .
Aminatou: I mean the product placement is genius. I don't know Ann. You're the journalist. Maybe this is your next assignment, talk to Sophia Grace's parents.
Ann: Making a note.
Aminatou: Freeideas.biz.
Ann: This is the kind of note I'll find in six months that just says "WTF Sophia Grace's parents?" and I'll be like what?
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yes, my ideas folder on my phone, none of it is . . . I don't understand what any of it is.
Ann: Shorthands to myself in the future.
Aminatou: I know. Wait, can I -- hold on, I'm pulling up my phone because I found the best note I've ever left myself. It says "Amina, questions are heroic acts of leadership. Don't suffer in silence." [Laughter] Like in-between a sandwich recipe and these new shoes I wanted to buy.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Always motivating myself.
Ann: I'm not even going to open my notes app right now. I feel like I just don't want to go there. Much like the closet clean-out I let it build.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You know, but I'm sure that I wrote that to myself when I was in some meeting where I was too intimidated to say anything.
Ann: Right. And you were like "My future self will thank me for this reason."
Aminatou: That's right. That's right. Don't suffer in silence.
Ann: I mean it is good advice.
Aminatou: Okay, you're going to find Sophia Grace's parents. I'm going to go through my note's folder.
Ann: Amber Alert on Rosie.
Aminatou: So ridiculous.
[Music and Ads]
(28:45)
Aminatou: What are you reading?
Ann: So I've been thinking about this article I read which is about how women are way harsher than men in some contexts on other women when it comes to their abortion choices. So there's a survey that's been going on for decades so it was a pretty consistent amount of . . . I don't know, pretty consistently year-over-year they're asking the same questions. And when they ask whether a woman should be allowed to get an abortion when she wants it for any reason 17 of the 23 years that this question has been asked men have said yes in greater -- to a greater extent than women. So I mean . . .
Aminatou: Whoa.
Ann: Yeah, and it made me wonder -- it didn't go super deep -- but if the tactic of saying we should protect abortion rights because sometimes women need it to survive or we should protect abortion rights in the cases of rape and incest or all the sort of exceptional reasons that get trotted out as why we should defend abortion rights as opposed to just sometimes you really want an abortion, whether women are more susceptible to those messages. Like oh, I could picture myself someday maybe being in a health crisis and needing an abortion but I would never just get one. You know, this idea of . . . I don't know.
Aminatou: Um . . .
Ann: I'm troubled in thinking about this.
(30:05)
Aminatou: I'm very troubled but you know the first thing that came to mind is conservative ladies. And yeah, it's like that number surprises me but it also doesn't surprise me because that's how the war on women works, there's two kinds of women. And I feel that a lot of women are real absolutists about this, right? It's like if you're going to be a good girl and have it all and blah, blah, blah, there's no nuance there at all.
Ann: Right. You either . . .
Aminatou: Whereas for men it's not as personal. You know, I'm convinced that if you ask most men how actually abortions work they'd be like "Is that a tampon?" Like they actually couldn't tell you what the deal was.
Ann: Right. Most men couldn't identify basic female anatomy let alone how to remove a fetus from it.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, right? Like totally. I'm like I'm going to give you three options. How do you think this works? They have no idea. It's like what hole does it go into?
Ann: Would fail the multiple choice.
Aminatou: It surprises me but it also doesn't at all. I wonder how many of those women surveyed who feel that you shouldn't have abortions have actually had abortions, you know?
Ann: Oh sure. I probably about ten years ago now for a reporting assignment was at an abortion clinic in Nebraska that is one of the few places in that part of the country that does abortions on the later end of what's Roe legal. And he said that of those later-term abortions a disproportionate number -- it's things you might expect, teenagers in tough circumstances and women who couldn't get the money together early enough. But he said there's a third group of women who basically couldn't come to terms with the fact they needed an abortion because it didn't square with their politics.
Aminatou: No, totally.
(31:50)
Ann: And were basically in his office for this medical procedure and still saying this should be illegal.
Aminatou: No, sure. It's like anecdotally in my life when I think about who's had abortions they're weirdly a lot more politically conservative. I'm like hmm, the rest of us more likely to use birth control but no judge. No judging zone. But yeah, it's like I think that's really, really . . . it's really interesting. It makes me really sad that those women don't want other women to have abortions.
Ann: Yeah, and I think it works -- the flip-side of it works too which is that if you're a woman with sort of anti-choice politics who has never needed an abortion you're sort of like "I've never needed one for any reason. I take birth control or I have one million children" or whatever it is that you justify the fact that you're special because you've never needed one.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: I mean it's not only conservative women. I think all kinds of women tell themselves I've never needed an abortion because I've been smart enough to take my pill at the right time or I've been smart enough to . . .
Aminatou: I know, which is such a crazy -- it's like such a crazy thing to think, right? Because it's not about how smart you are or whatever. It's like that's the whole point about letting people do what they want with their bodies. You don't know where they're at. Like there are women who are perfectly happily married who have abortions because they don't see children in that particular circumstance in their lives, right?
Ann: Totally. Totally.
Aminatou: Stuff like that. Did you ever see this video went viral a couple months ago, that amazing British lady yelling at somebody outside of an abortion clinic.
Ann: Yes I did. Yes.
Aminatou: She's so super-pregnant and she's just yelling -- I'm just like god bless you, where can I send you an edible arrangement? You're my hero. But the woman that she was yelling at was a woman who had had an abortion and was regretting it, right? And was outside of the abortion clinic with a poster and she's like "You're such a hypocrite. You've had yours and your life turned out okay and now you don't want anyone else to have one." I was like hmm.
Ann: Right. Like I regret eating an entire sleeve of butter biscuits and do I want to make butter biscuits illegal?
(33:58)
Aminatou: [Laughs] Are you talking about me?
Ann: No, that is my life. In fact that is my last night. That's what happened to me yesterday, so ripped from the headlines.
Aminatou: This seems very personal. No, it's true. That lady was the jam. I was like thank you very much.
Ann: I grew up in a super-duper Catholic place of extreme anti-choice indoctrination and the idea that a totally reasonable argument that hey, even if you regret your abortion that probably isn't a reason to make it illegal because you got to make your choice, stuff like that just doesn't fly in most conversations -- face-to-face conversations -- especially out in front of a clinic or something. It's just I have a lot of skepticism about the sort of conversational potential of changing people's abortion politics.
Aminatou: So I mean I don't have enough research on this, right? But I think there are two non-profits that do this specifically where they're trying to change abortion stigma through storytelling and apparently it works. I think one is called Sea Change. I want to say Sea Org but that's Scientology so . . . [Laughs]
Ann: Different type of worldview changing.
Aminatou: I'll look it up. I'll tweet about it later. But yeah, no, when women talk about their abortions and they tell their stories, you know, people are moved/change their minds or whatever which I think is really true because nobody talks about their abortion ever at all. And I think that it's important to have a full scope of conversations, like in the new Nicki Minaj album The Pink Print it's so good. She talks about having an abortion and how it basically tore her apart because she doesn't have that baby. And I was like hmm, not something a lot of super liberal people want to hear but I think that's a really important conversation to have and I would much rather her talk about it than not.
(35:55)
Ann: Totally, and I guess I wasn't trying to say that women telling their abortion stories has no impact because I think that definitely has an impact. I guess what I was trying to say is when someone who is sort of from a position of more like political advocacy tries to approach someone to be like "I want to change your political beliefs, and let me . . . I'm not telling my own story but let me give you a reasoned argument for why you should be pro-choice."
(36:18)
Aminatou: No, totally.
Ann: I actually totally agree with you that personal stories do more. In fact a friend of mine who had an abortion and told her sister about it way after the fact because her family was pretty conservative, it totally changed her sister's view on that specific issue. At first she was horrified, devastated, everything you might expect. Then, you know, a little bit deeper into the conversation she was like "Oh, yeah, okay. I don't think you're going to hell." [Laughs]
Aminatou: It's like thank you.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: I just want to light those people on fire. For the life of me I think I'm a fairly, you know, whatever. I like get issues. I legitimately do not understand why in America Christian people are so insensitive about abortion, like to the degree that they are. It really -- it like boggles my mind. I went to Planned Parenthood once to legit get birth control, forgot my sweater, went back the next day. Same lady was yelling at me. She's like "You again!" And I was like . . . [Laughs]
Ann: Yep, pregnant again already. Here I am.
Aminatou: Pregnant again. Next day I had to come back.
Ann: God.
Aminatou: I'm like hello? I'm too poor to get birth control. Leave me alone. They're so obnoxious. Ugh, awful people.
Ann: Speaking of birth control what is happening with your IUD?
Aminatou: Oh my god Ann, so I have the date on my calendar. If you peep my calendar you'll see it.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: But then a mistake, I made drink plans that night so something's going to have to move. [Laughs] I'm already like I can't have my IUD put in, my friend is visiting. That's not going to happen.
Ann: Right.
(38:00)
Aminatou: So probably the next time we do this podcast I'll be like . . . I'll be all IUDed up.
Ann: Wait, do you need to have a sober uterine lining? Or like your blood-alcohol level has to be . . .
Aminatou: So I've asked about this. People are like yes, but I'm still taking two shots of tequila. I'm going to take every Motrin they have. I asked for !!br0ken!! I mean it's going to be a production, it's so crazy. But I really want to say thank you to all of our listeners who've written me about their IUD depo situation. Like I'm so heartened. You ladies are hardcore. Just like . . . ugh, anybody with a vagina is hardcore.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: The stories, like sitting there sipping wine, drinking, going what? What? What? Don't do it. Don't do it. So yes, thank you for being so generous with your vagina stories. I've been sincerely moved. Also really, ugh, crazy. I want to give a shout-out though -- special shout-out -- to our listener, hardcore listener Allison Turkos who got her IUD put in a couple of days ago and live tweeted the whole thing.
Ann: Oh my god, shero.
Aminatou: How insane? She's just like okay. I mean obviously she's an advanced human because she already works in a clinic so she's like "I'm going to pop downstairs and figure this thing out." [Laughs]
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And she did, and she was like you know it wasn't bad for me but all bodies are different. This is not medical advice. She's like good people and I'm like ugh, your body is perfect. Nothing went wrong. Me on the other hand, I'll probably die.
Ann: Oh my god, these tweets are incredible. "Feet in stirrups. It's happening. #IUD."
Aminatou: [Laughs] She's a bad-ass.
Ann: So awesome.
(39:48)
Aminatou: You -- are you kidding me? My phone will probably break in half if I hold it. The only thing though, I asked if I could listen to music because I want to be as distracted as possible. [Laughs]
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: So I'm making myself an IUD rap playlist.
Ann: Ugh, yes. Is it also going to feature the . . . who sings the keep bleeding song?
Aminatou: [Laughs] Only Leona Lewis. That's rude.
Ann: Sorry.
Aminatou: No, it's like a lot of Big Crit and Migos. Like I can't be . . . I'm like I can't be of this world while this is happening.
Ann: No feelings.
Aminatou: That's all I'm going to listen to is Big Crit. He always makes me feel so powerful.
Ann: I know. I know that is your power music. That's perfect. So perfect.
Aminatou: [Laughs] It's so perfect. Do you have other menstruation news updates for me?
Ann: Well speaking of our fabulous listeners one of them wrote in to ask us how we feel about "aggressive bathroom signage requiring the proper disposal of feminine products."
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: "Is it a reasonable reaction to janitorial issues or intrusive patriarchal messaging?"
Aminatou: I mean I feel this is making an issue where there's no issue because as somebody who has lived with many, many women I would rather they not flush tampons. [Laughs]
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Shout out 3402 Groom Street House in Austin, Texas. I won't shame the roommates from that house, but you know, it was a real problem between hair in the drains and tampons in the thing.
Ann: Here's how I think of it: sometimes women are tasked with cleaning those bathrooms too, therefore it's not the patriarchy.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: If only men had to clean the bathrooms I might feel differently.
Aminatou: Totally. No, totally. But also here's the thing: all it takes is one spring break trip to Mexico to know that even toilet paper in your toilet is a problem so that's my feeling. [Laughs] The thing that I do think is insanely aggressive is how on many, many leases it will say this. It's like "If you stop up the bathroom because of female hygienic products you will be charged." I'm like that's some bullshit.
(42:00)
Ann: I mean where are the signs telling teenage boys not to flush condoms?
Aminatou: Oh my god, we have a really good condom flushing story in this family.
Ann: We do.
Aminatou: But I don't think I can share it.
Ann: We can't. It's not suitable for the air but all I will say is . . .
Aminatou: No, it just involves grown men, not teenagers. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god, I don't know this story. The story that I know, it happened to a friend when he was a teenager.
Aminatou: No, this happened to friends that we know. Their downstairs neighbor almost blew up their entire house. [Laughter] Very handsome downstairs neighbor. Oh my god this is not my story to tell and I've already said too much.
Ann: So what I want to know is why isn't that in the lease? Like men, masculine products, don't put them in the toilet?
Aminatou: Yeah, don't. I mean basically outside of toilet paper don't flush things. And even toilet paper be gentle. Be very gentle.
Ann: Take only what you need. Control yourself. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Control yourself. Take only what you need from it. Yeah, so I don't know. Patriarchy sucks for a lot of things but plumbing is real, man. It's a problem.
Ann: It's a real problem.
Aminatou: It's a real problem. [Laughs] God.
Ann: Do we want to take a listener question before we go?
Aminatou: Yes, but before that can I give you a really good Shine Theory update?
Ann: Oh, please do.
Aminatou: So my favorite TV show right now is Master Chef Jr. If you're not familiar with Master Chef Jr. it's the kid version of Master Chef, hosted by human garbage monster Gordon Ramsey. But in Master Chef Jr. he's obviously kinder. I love reality TV shows with family, like Kid Nation, best thing that ever happened to us. 13 episodes, RIP. Master Chef Jr. is amazing. Like these kids can't even lift appliances onto the counter without help from their friends because they're so little.
Ann: Aww.
(44:05)
Aminatou: Also Ann, full disclosure, I cry every single elimination. Kids are not meant to be eliminated. They're just not.
Ann: I mean that stuff is devastating when it's not broadcast on television.
Aminatou: I know! So listen to what happened on yesterday's episode. Jimmy who is not even my favorite but is pretty good was like "I'm here to win but I'm also here to make friends."
Ann: [Gasps]
Aminatou: And I lost my shit.
Ann: Sorry, I'm dying.
Aminatou: I'm here to win but I'm also here to make friends.
Ann: That's basically my life motto.
Aminatou: That's the spirit of Master Chef Jr. Also this other kid, Nathan, he says that these other two kids are his best friends in the conversation and it was 100% believable. And he's like -- or Andrew's like "No one wants to see eight-year-old Riley go home." Or Ryan saying "It's hard seeing my friends leave." There is so much good friendship on Master Chef Jr. and it makes it that much harder. Like I'm always sobbing.
Ann: That's great. Also just way to play a long game. I mean it's hard to know to play a long game when you're eleven but that is the ultimate long game.
Aminatou: No, totally. He's like "I'm going to whoop all y'all asses and I'm going to make friends here." He just knows. I think we've entered a new era of reality TV, like people want to be friends.
Ann: I believe the children are our future.
Aminatou: The children are our goddamn future. Ann, Master Chef Jr. is so cute. Just, ugh, like nerdy kids who can cook. Like what else do you want in life?
Ann: All right, I'm going to find it on the Internet.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Your list of things to find on the Internet is impossible.
Ann: It's so long.
Aminatou: Good luck. Good luck.
[Music]
(45:58)
Ann: All right, you want to read this question now?
Aminatou: This listener says "I'm 23 living in Philly," shout-out Philly, "and I finished my master's degree this past May." 23 with a master's girl?
Ann: Good job. Good job listener.
Aminatou: Okay, that's already prefacing the problems to come. "After the prerequisite several months of job hunting/crying/Cheeto eating I've secured my first real job with benefits and everything. It pays better than I'd hoped and I genuinely enjoy the work I'm doing. I have a decent apartment in the city, a serious relationship with a guy I love, and I even manage to take care of two cats."
Ann: Wow, Superwoman.
Aminatou: "So naturally," I know, ugh. "So naturally I can't stop thinking about what the hell I'm supposed to do now. It's too soon for me to start thinking about marriage or a doctoral program but I don't know what other goals I could possibly start working towards. After years of moving around for school, working multiple jobs and internships, and just generally living in chaos, the idea of being stagnant terrifies me. I feel like I've finally reached a place in life where I should feel happy and successful but I just feel lost. Additionally I'm suffering from serious impostor syndrome. I have this great adult life but I don't feel like I can handle it yet. I find myself shocked that anyone would let me handle my own finances or let me handle clients without direct supervision. It's weird."
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: Did I write this letter? Unclear.
Ann: She's maybe us. She's now us. Yeah.
Aminatou: I know, except like way smarter.
Ann: Yeah. I wasn't able to articulate any of this at that age.
Aminatou: Yeah, oof. "Did you have any similar experiences transitioning from academia into the real world? LOL. How did you handle your first real long-term job? What do you do to keep stagnating and settling with your current selves?" That's huge.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: "When did you really start feeling like a competent adult if you even do? Do you have any tips/tricks on adulting?" Uh, will you adopt us and teach us how to adult?
Ann: Seriously.
(47:58)
Aminatou: I feel like you have . . . I'm like literally sitting on my bed not wearing pants doing this podcast while I should be doing my real job.
Ann: I'm in a closet and I blew two deadlines this week.
Aminatou: Yeah. You are the most competent 23-year-old I know.
Ann: Right. One thing that I see in here is this idea of there are external milestones like okay, I know my education can go through these phases. I've got a master's degree and a doctorate is maybe next if I want to do that and it's too early for a promotion at my job or the next step or whatever for my relationship is marriage." It just seems like it's all very, you know, official milestone-related as opposed to your interest and development as a human related.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I mean yes, so that's like the real talk, right? Is we can unpack a couple of these things. Congratulations on being 23 and very educated. That's incredible. But also congratulations on being a woman who is very educated in a relationship. That shit usually does not work like that.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: Maybe it's just black women. Unclear. [Laughs] But I want to touch specifically the job thing. I love that you were really confident at your job right now and I totally feel the impostor syndrome. Like once a day I look at my work life and I'm like why is anybody trusting me to do this? I'm a crazy person. How do they know I'm not going to burn this whole place to the ground? And the thing is they don't know; they just trust you. So fake it until you make it and just grow in your confidence.
Ann: All the research says incompetent people don't worry about being impostors. Imposter syndrome is actually only something that afflicts people who are good at what they do.
Aminatou: Hallelujah, amen. Say that again.
Ann: You have impostor syndrome because you are good at what you do.
Aminatou: Exactly. Fucking love it. And here's the thing about work. I know that it's going really well but there's always room to do better. Like if you feel like you're doing a really good job keep crushing it, like keep doing what you do. I think that naturally it will become clear to you whether you're actually stagnating at your job. I don't think that anybody who's 23 can really say they're stagnating at their job, like that's not true. And then it'll become apparent to you, right? Like if you need to go somewhere else or if you can ask for more responsibility or whatever. Like I am hoping that you are in a place where they'll reward your talent and diligence with responsibility and that's what changes at work is just that you get more responsibility which is terrifying.
(50:38)
Ann: I think one of the other really great things about this email and about this listener is this question of "I genuinely don't know what other goals I should be working towards." This idea that maybe you should always have goals, which is not to say something big like get a graduate degree, but you know, I'm going to . . .
Aminatou: It's like always be having goals.
Ann: Right, exactly. That as just a general life skill is incredible, even if it's just like "I'm going to really kill it at Tumblr this month," or whatever. Yeah.
Aminatou: [Laughs] No, totally. Get many, many hobbies. Meet new people.
Ann: Start a podcast.
Aminatou: Also the thing about being a competent adult, like you are way more "competent" -- quote marks -- than most people we know. I'm like barely getting my finances together. So, you know, maybe that's your next goal is to be like "I'm going to stash away like a million dollars." Figure it out.
Ann: Every guide to investing says "If you didn't start when you're 23 you're kind of fucked now." So you should just do that. Start some kind of investing club. Maybe that's what you should do.
Aminatou: No, totally. Start an investing club. Something that you didn't mention in here is how your friendship life is going.
Ann: True.
Aminatou: Make some new friends. That's always a challenge. You know, no shade to your boyfriend. Meet new people.
Ann: Yeah, invest in some friends.
(51:55)
Aminatou: See how that's going for you. I have decided that when I have my whole life together I want to join like a climbing gym. That's what I want to do.
Ann: Oh my god, tell me more.
Aminatou: So feel free to steal my goal. You can become a climber.
Ann: I love that. I decided I was going to learn to make bread this year which means by this time at the end of the year I will know how to make a sandwich out of something that I made myself.
Aminatou: Do you want me to send you some bread recipes? I'm a pretty good bread maker.
Ann: Please do because my first one . . .
Aminatou: Do you have a bread maker?
Ann: I don't.
Aminatou: Okay, that's your first problem.
Ann: But listen, this is the whole thing: I want to know how to do it without the bread maker, hence the goal part.
Aminatou: Ugh, that is such a white person problem.
Ann: It's not a problem; it's a hobby.
Aminatou: I know, but it's like -- okay, we'll talk about this offline. I just come from people who make bread and we didn't have bread makers growing up and I just think it's easier if you have a bread maker.
Ann: Totally. I also think . . .
Aminatou: Just as challenging but it solves certain problems that are annoying but also I support all your ambitions.
Ann: Can this be a safe space for my goals please? [Laughs]
Aminatou: You're right, I'm really sorry. Ugh, I'm going to have to talk about this in therapy. I'm really sorry Ann. Your goal of bread making is really important and I will support you any way I can and I'm going to remove the bread maker from the Amazon registry I just put it on.
Ann: If you want to do real talk it has to do more with my inability to meditate by looking at a wall and I think if I'm looking at dough it will help my mind go blank. That is honestly the truth of the matter is if I get into a bread making habit it will supplant any kind of meditation.
Aminatou: You know that's the only reason I bake is when I get really upset I think it's . . . baking is so hard I can't think about two things at the same time.
Ann: Exactly. That's exactly the appeal.
Aminatou: Okay, so I'm go to become a rock climber. You're going to bake bread. 23-year-old Philly goal just become president.
Ann: Definitely. We can't wait.
(53:50)
Aminatou: Also listen, you're right around ripe for a quarter-life crisis. It happens to all of us. Drink a little, keep crushing it at your job, don't make any drastic life decisions, it'll pass.
Ann: [Laughs] Ugh, that's the perfect note to end on.
Aminatou: I know. We give the worst advice. [Laughs]
Ann: We never claim to be experts.
Aminatou: That's true, it's free. I'm just saying, to quote T.I., live your life.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: Yeah, see you on the Internet boo-boo. Thanks for listening to Call Your Girlfriend. You can catch us many places online. One of them is Twitter at @callyrgf. You can listen and download this podcast on iTunes. If you love it feel free to leave us a review; if you don't love it we don't want to hear from you. And yeah, check out our website callyourgirlfriend.com.
Ann: You can also email us, callyrgf@gmail.com.