Notorious Ladies
1/2/15 - We discuss Amina’s facetime with the Notorious Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Ann’s encounters with new age bullshit in Guatemala, the fantastic movie Selma and racism in Hollywood. And this week in menstruation, our birth control quandaries about IUDs and depo shots.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Weezer - The Good Life
Enya - Only Time
Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend
TRANSCRIPT: NOTORIOUS LADIES
Ann: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Aminatou: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Ann: I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: And I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And on our agenda today is the pro-Hillary cowboy country song, Amina's amazing meeting with the Notorious RBG, new-age bullshit that I encountered in Guatemala, and Selma, a movie everyone should see and why it's so, so, so relevant.
[Theme Song]
Aminatou: What if there's a YouTube video?
[Music]
Ann: [Laughs] Oh my god, it's the Hillary country video.
Aminatou: [Laughs] One, I have not seen this. Two, please tell me everything about it.
Ann: It is just the most hilarious sexy country hunk singing his Stand with Hillary song and I did not know that you hadn't seen it. I assumed that you had seen it and had all kinds of feelings about it but I feel like this is where the rifts in various pre-candidacy Hillary groups start to show because I'm sure the ready for Hillary people or the other PACs are like what the fuck are you doing?
Aminatou: Yeah, what the hell is Stand with Hillary? So this is like a different thing.
Ann: I think so.
Aminatou: Wow, Hillary, everybody is rooting for you including these hunky country people. [Laughs]
(2:00)
Ann: I mean it's funny because conservative Internet was like "Oh my god, can you believe the pandering?" And I actually thought it was a joke. Like the first time I saw it I was remembering all over again how in 2008 it was mom shame about Hillary. Like unwarranted I know but this video is just like oh my god, so embarrassing.
Aminatou: Oh yeah, so I clicked on the Facebook page for this and I am not impressed.
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: Uh-oh, 125 likes. The only other page they like is Chelsea. But great Hillary portraits. Yeah, sorry, Ready for Hillary will forever be the -- like that's where we're going.
Ann: Anyway, just like a little snippet of the . . . I don't know, I feel like I want to know what other videos rogue pro-Hillary groups are making now. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh my god, Ann, this dude's face and there's a poster that just says "She fights for country." What?
Ann: I know. I can't figure it out.
Aminatou: I am not ready for 2016.
Ann: Where's the BuzzFeed interview with the hunky Hillary cowboy?
Aminatou: Yeah, oh my -- yeah, no, we've got to bug our BuzzFeed friends. This is insane. Okay, thank you. God bless. God bless America, God bless Hillary. This is amazing.
Ann: Okay, you want to do a check-in?
Aminatou: Yeah, sure.
Ann: I mean I heard you met your idol.
Aminatou: I think you mean the spirit animal of this podcast, one Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Yes.
Ann: Oh my god, fanning myself over here.
Aminatou: I mean I'm basically dead. This whole podcast is coming to you from the beyond.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: I'm not saying I cried but I definitely teared up a little bit. Ann, she's everything. RIP Amina. RIP. I'm not here.
(3:55)
Ann: I think you have to explain how you got in there, how you found your way into Ruth's chambers.
Aminatou: [Laughs] How I found my way into Ruth's chambers. Well, you know, I have many side hustles and one of these side hustles with my good friend Frank Chi (?) was plastering Washington, D.C. with stickers that said "You can't spell the truth without Ruth." And she looks pretty gangster, she has a basquiat crown on, and all this was happening at the same time as the Notorious RBG Tumblr was picking up that is run by this amazing lady Shana Knizhnik that we are also homies with and so RBG wrote and she said that she wants to meet the young people that are making her Internet famous. Who's going to say no to that? So long story short I got on a red eye, LOL, so painful to go meet RBG. Rewind. RBG had a stint put in which is heart surgery for those of you people who don't know and she was back at work like five days later.
Ann: Unstoppable.
Aminatou: Yeah, she's like democracy depends on it. Women's bodies depend on it. Tort reform depends on it. So she's back at work, right? I got to go to really boring oral arguments, to something, something tort reform, something, something attorney general. I don't know, the government is wack. [Laughs] So after that we got to go to her chambers and meet her and Ann, she's amazing. She's tiny but projects so much power. The first thing I saw in her office was the Elle Magazine with Lorde on the cover, trust.
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: That's just how we know, you know? I'm just like we know.
Ann: Power ladies reading about other power ladies.
(5:50)
Aminatou: Power ladies, right? Also she's back at work five days later. So usually when you have a stint it goes through your groin. I don't understand medicine. [Laughs] But RBG's so gangster she's like "Sorry, homie, I've got to be back at work. What can you do for me?" So they put the stint in through her risk and she showed us. It's so gnarly.
Ann: Whoa.
Aminatou: It was so gnarly, like she's bruised everywhere. And I was like "Ruth, what do you want your . . ." Sorry, "Your honor, Notorious RBG. [Laughs] What do you want your Internet fans to know?" And she doesn't skip a beat and she goes "I'll be back to working out next week."
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Because you know she's like a little fitness hound. She does those Canadian Mountie workouts or whatever it's called. Somebody's going to have to fact-check what it's actually called but it's like a series workout.
Ann: It's like calisthenics, like military calisthenics.
Aminatou: I know, she's definitely more fit than anybody I know our age so sorry. So yeah, she's like I'll get back to work. And then I insist a little and she goes "Oh, good job." [Laughs] She's so great. Even during the oral argument she was the only one giving her all. Well, her and Sotomayor. I felt like Kagan also pulled her weight. The dudes, dead weight. Clarence Thomas basically took a two-hour nap, cold-blooded. He was just not into it. Justice Breyer was trying to get Clarence Thomas to tell jokes with him and you realize this is why they didn't like cameras in the Supreme Court because we can all see that they're clowning around. I'm like are you kidding me? This is what you're doing, telling side jokes and chilling? That one is taking a nap? Not cool.
Ann: Fate of the nation, LOL, LOL.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, we've got to get cameras in there. Maybe they'll button it up. You know, like people are bringing them juice. People are bringing them dictionaries. Just free-for-all.
(7:55)
Ann: I need you to dispel a personal dream I have about RBG's chambers which is that she has a secret closet kind of like how Batman goes to change into his suit.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Full of her lace cravats. You know, just you open the door and they're lined up beautifully the way rich ladies' closets have their shoes.
Aminatou: Oh man, the collar, the beautiful lace collar that she was wearing that days, she just goes "Katie Couric gave me this." [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Which you should watch the Katie Couric Notorious RBG interview because Notorious RBG schools her. It's incredible.
Ann: I have seen a couple of clips and was like -- was a little bit like this is what happens when you spend too much time in morning television.
Aminatou: I mean basically and now Yahoo -- well done Katie. [Laughter] But you know, she's like . . .
Ann: You're not going to sing it?
Aminatou: She like tries to be her bubbly self and RBG is like "Hashtag actually" multiple times and clearly to atone she gave her a beautiful collar.
Ann: Right. Respect. I feel like that's a good gift.
Aminatou: I mean yeah. So I basically met my shero. Like best year ever.
Ann: Yes. You didn't ask for a selfie did you? That's like . . .
Aminatou: Um, no, but we definitely took a group photo and I made sure that I was the closest person to her.
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: Yeah, mama don't play games. I want to talk about Justice Ginsburg's clerks for two minutes because they're all young people.
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: One of them was fairly handsome, unclear what their vibe is. None of them can take pictures worth shit. I was like how old are you that you don't know how to take a picture in the Instagram square? Get it together.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: They don't teach you this at law school. They don't teach you this shit at law school.
Ann: Ugh.
(9:54)
Aminatou: Oh, one more thing that happened at the Supreme Court, Ann, there was a really beautiful man in a man bun and I feel like for D.C. that's a crazy thing to occur in a federal building.
Ann: Wow. Are you allowed to wear a man bun into a federal building?
Aminatou: I don't know, but I feel like because of where he was seated and how intensely he was listening he was affiliated with one of the families of the plaintiffs. Then I fell asleep and one of the guards woke me up and was like man, like very sternly called me out. [Laughs]
Ann: Are you about to tell me you dreamed the whole man bun sequence? It wasn't real?
Aminatou: I definitely saw him but I dozed off for like six minutes. I don't know, Ann, tort reform is so boring. Just watch that McDonald's coffee documentary. That's the only thing you need to know. Everything else is just garbage.
Ann: Ugh. I believe I told you when we talked about this earlier was when I was like a baby intern at Mother Jones I thought I was going to be a serious reporter and stop writing about this dumb women's rights stuff, really pitch some stories that they would be surprised were coming from a younger woman, and decided I was going to write about tort reform of all things.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I think I wrote like one article for the website and I was like this is so boring. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh my god. I'm still vaguely unclear what tort reform is. All I know is, yeah, boring people want to be part -- like like it. Unclear.
Ann: I just picture tort with an E every time and I'm like mmm.
Aminatou: Snacks reform. [Laughs]
Ann: We do need to reform the torte and make it more widely available.
Aminatou: Oh my god, yeah. You know how sometimes I tell you I want to go to law school then I'm like ugh, tort reform. Ugh, contracts. Ugh, constitution. Who cares?
Ann: The reality is not pretty.
(11:45)
Aminatou: Yeah, it's not pretty. Okay, enough about my crazy situation. I believe Instagram tells me you were in Guatemala [Laughs] doing yoga and writing.
Ann: When you were meeting your hero.
Aminatou: Can you tell me more?
Ann: Oh my god. So can we preface this by saying I don't do yoga? Like I had been . . .
Aminatou: Ann, you went to a yoga retreat. You do yoga. Just own it.
Ann: Well now I think it's fair to say that. Before I went I had been to one yoga class in my entire life and this trip came about because my friend Gracie who is a yoga teacher was telling me last year about a yoga retreat in Bali. And she was like "Yeah, it's kind of my job. I go to Bali and I teach yoga for a week. It's a way to get my travel paid for." And I kind of jokingly said "Well let me know when you want to do a version that needs some kind of writing workshop because I can make that up." Then she was like "Oh, actually . . ." So anyway, we did that. I was very, very nervous about doing yoga every single day for a week which . . .
Aminatou: How many times a day?
Ann: So it was like two-and-a-half hours of sweaty yoga. Or I mean some combo of that and the thing where you just lie on various blocks and relax and it's called yoga but it's like you're not really doing anything. So yeah, it was lots per day and I have to tell you I was not prepared. I know, again, things anyone would know going into this. I was just not prepared for the weird new-agey religious yoga world that retreat centers like this exist in. I didn't even have the vocabulary for it. I didn't know there were so many ways to talk about energy.
Aminatou: [Laughs] And intentional community.
Ann: Oh my god. And also just fucking chakras. What the hell? Like I feel like if you're an evolved spiritual being you don't need to think about a specific physical place in your body where a certain thing happens.
Aminatou: Which chakra gets referred to the most?
Ann: The root chakra?
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(13:52)
Ann: There was like . . . I mean I was like do you mean pooping? Anyway it brought up lots of uncomfortable Catholic stuff from my childhood where I was sort of like oh, this is a community of religious people whose beliefs I don't totally share even if I can get with some of your underlying principles and it's really alienating. And I think if I hadn't had a friend there who could be my translator to that world it would've been way worse. But I don't know, I mean this is stuff that people have known since the '70s, that when white people -- Columbus, like a potpourri of other countries -- weird things happen.
Aminatou: Yeah, white people have no chill. So was it like all white ladies on your retreat?
Ann: Oh, totally.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Think about every stereotype you have, and they were all lovely. They were all great ladies but just think about every stereotype you have. For example there was an energy worker which I don't even know what that is, it's some kind of massage therapist named like Ramah but he's an old white guy, like it's an adopted name sort of thing. You know, all of those little stereotypes are true and it doesn't mean it wasn't an interesting experience but it's not really like I went to Guatemala. It's like I took a trip to a strange new age white people place and it was like . . . it was interesting and it was good in lots of ways. I think it's probably healthy that I did yoga every day for a week but it was profoundly weird.
Aminatou: Yeah, and we talked about how India has a yoga minister now and he wants to bring yoga back to its Indian roots and everybody knows it's too late. The white people are never going to give it back.
Ann: I thought it was so interesting too they'll basically talk about every spiritual tradition in the world except for the ones traditionally embraced by white people.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(15:52)
Ann: So there was . . . the woman who ran the center who was perfectly nice and hospitable, she would be talking about, you know, whatever, the spiritual energy of the place or she'd be talking about I'd like to lead you in a meditation sort of thing. That only happened once. And it would be . . . she'd be throwing out phrases in Sanskrit and she would be talking about Mayan stuff and she would be -- and here's a Lakota Sioux prayer. But, you know, of all of the religious references made it's like Christianity is this third rail which it's funny because to me I mean I guess these people are probably reacting to some kind of more mainstream Christian upbringing and so to invoke that as part of the same way of thinking about the world is strange to them but I don't know. It was really -- it was weird.
Aminatou: I think that's really interesting what you're saying because I think it gets to why Columbising anything is so just rage-inducing for the people on the other side of it. [Laughs] It's just this like white people never stay in their lane and they always pretend like they come from no culture. It's like no, you have your own shit. Build that up please by all means.
Ann: Yeah, and so it's like . . . I don't know. I mean I think -- I believe, listen, whatever works for people, if there are people who are having a really hard time then found this potpourri of . . . someone was self-referring to his beliefs as new age which I was shocked. That's like the self-identifying hipster. It's like you never see it in the wild. But, you know, whatever works for people great but there also seems to be no acknowledgment whatsoever. Like if the guy who referred to himself as new age was like "Yeah, you know, kind of taken from every tradition that isn't a white people tradition and made a thing for ourselves that we call new age," if they had been acknowledged, not that it's awesome but somehow that would've made me . . . like oh, at least you know what's going on here.
(17:55)
Aminatou: Russell Brand tattoo body situation. [Laughs]
Ann: It's so true. The entire thing was like Russell Brand's tattoos.
Aminatou: Oh man, so crazy.
Ann: I mean I sound like I'm complaining though. Actually Guatemala is beautiful and I did some traveling in the week after that was definitely not yoga world and I also had a great time with all the lovely people on the retreat. I don't mean to say -- complain about this one thing. But that is sort of the thing that I can't stop thinking about.
Aminatou: Did you use your high school Spanish?
Ann: Oh my gosh, high school/college Spanish totally came back to me.
Aminatou: Oh yeah, because you did Spanish in college too, right? I remember this.
Ann: I did but I never lived abroad and I'm very aware -- I use it in L.A. when it's an actual communication issue but I'm very aware of not wanting to be the white girl at the taco truck who doesn't actually speak Spanish but then is like "Doste langa por favor?" in her Spanish class accent.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I don't know, so I was kind of surprised to learn that I could totally communicate everywhere just fine. It's like the brain is a fantastic thing that actually holds this stuff pretty deep.
Aminatou: Ugh, I'm so happy for you.
Ann: Yeah. Anyway, but yeah, I used it. You know, banter with waiters and that sort of thing. I don't really think I deserve a prize.
Aminatou: Oh my god, Ann Friedman Spanish banter. I would pay for that tape.
Ann: Ugh, Annish banter.
Aminatou: [Laughs] So crazy.
[Music and Ads]
Aminatou: Oh my god, Ann, I also have another weird update for you. So remember how a couple weeks ago I was dying of cramps on this very podcast? [Laughs]
Ann: Yes, I do remember.
Aminatou: It turns out I was actually dying. I had to go to the ER. I had to get a blood transfusion. So I've been on this whole journey to figure out what type of birth control my body will be happy with.
Ann: Mybirthcontroljourney.com, like women should be filling that out.
Aminatou: God. [Sighs] So I got fitted for a IUD but didn't actually get the IUD yet because there's not enough Ativans in the world for me to do both of those things the same day. [Laughs] And I was freaking out. So I've been emailing and talking to everybody I know who has the Mirena IUD and clearly it's like 50/50, right? Some people are like "Oh my god, I haven't had a period in four years. Thanks Barack Obama!" And other people . . .
(22:15)
Ann: And other people are like the Shining elevator doors?
Aminatou: Yeah, no, they're like "I'm afraid of my vagina. We can feel it when I have sex." Just like a nightmare. It seems there's no middle ground with women and birth control. Anyway I was complaining about this at work and this older lady pulls me aside and she whispers to me and I think she's going to say something super controversial and she's like "Have you thought about doing a Depo shot?" And I was like what?
Ann: Whoa, really?
Aminatou: I was like whoa, interesting. And she made a case for the Depo shot. She's like it's every three months. It'll drive you a little crazy in the beginning, maybe a little face hair, but it's nowhere near the stress of having an IUD put in if you're a baby like me and now I'm all sorts of confused. I'm like ugh, too many options, none of them easy.
Ann: I honestly only know Depo in the context of clinics offering it to low-income teens who then go crazy on it because they're not prepared.
Aminatou: Yeah, why would you give that to teens? You have to come back every three months.
Ann: I don't know. But I do know that that was a standard thing for a long time.
Aminatou: Basically if you have a Depo shot please email us -- me specifically -- because I am dying to know what the deal is.
Ann: So wait, are you holding off on the IUD and actually considering the Depo thing?
Aminatou: Uh, Ann, if I don't have to have that ten minute sensation of dying while they put it in and I can have a shot instead and risk some chin hairs I'm so down for that.
Ann: Let's be real, we're equipped to deal with chin hairs. Very experienced in the chin hair department.
(24:05)
Aminatou: Oh my god, what if I just get a permanent beard? [Laughs] I still think I could deal with that versus the abject fear that I have about the IUD.
Ann: Versus like puncture -- just the word puncture related to anything in that region of the body.
Aminatou: Yeah. Also just never Google vagina stories because nobody will tell you pleasant stories. There's this one, I don't remember what it's called, like IUD Divas or something? Some Livejournal. [Laughs] And everybody on there is just nightmare town.
Ann: Ugh. I've never Googled that although I'm kind of shocked that I haven't Googled vagina stories. Maybe we should buy that URL.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Everything is just -- yeah, it's crazy. And also I talked to these older ladies who are all . . . you know, we've been doing this since 1776. This is the same way they do pap smears, same way they do birth control.
Ann: 1776, the year we achieved vaginal independence.
Aminatou: Yeah, nothing has changed. And I'm like what is science doing? Stop. I don't want a smaller phone; I want birth control that works.
Ann: I mean I want both of those things. I want it all.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Oh my god. I got one of those what are they called? Like I'll wear it like a watch.
Ann: You did?
Aminatou: One of those like digital watches. I mean I didn't buy it, I'll tell you that much. But yes, I have one. And one -- two problems. One, it doesn't recognize my name. [Laughs] It's the most useless thing in the world to me. And then you realize that now you're forever chained to your email on your own wrist because that's the only good thing it can do for you.
Ann: And don't you have to give it all direction by speaking to it?
Aminatou: Yeah, so when it doesn't recognize your name it's a problem.
Ann: It's like the Starbucks barista of devices. [Laughs]
(26:10)
Aminatou: It's so problematic. Oh my god, like that time the Starbucks lady wrote my name down as Ebony. Hmm, suspicious.
Ann: [Laughs] Sorry, what?
Aminatou: Have we never talked about this? It was like my third week in New York. I worked at 44th and Madison. There's a Starbucks right across the street. You know I don't drink coffee but I like assorted teas and like French Madeleine cookies. So I go, I order a tea, and clearly my name is Amina. If anything sometimes my Starbucks name is Samantha but it just depends what the person on the other side of the counter looks like. Not even going to -- ethnic people got Starbucks names. So anyway I say Amina, get my tea, leave, go back to the office. I'm in a meeting and one of my coworkers turns to me and goes "What does your cup say?" and it said Ebony on it.
Ann: I think that could've been a lawsuit, tort reform.
Aminatou: So listen, I thought about it. I was like this is going to be viral. I'm going to tweet it. I'm going to be one of those people that start a Twitter outrage. The company's going to apologize to me. We're going to have free Starbucks in this family forever. But I wanted to make sure that the person who did it was a white person because you can't accuse fellow people of flavor on this kind of stuff. [Laughs]
Ann: Right. Heavy charges.
Aminatou: I did a drive-by by the Starbucks and I couldn't -- like racially ambiguous so I dropped it.
Ann: Oof. Oof.
Aminatou: But I thought about it.
(27:48)
Ann: I don't really know how to inoffensively transition to talking about Selma.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: But I want to talk about Selma because we've both seen it which is a rarity. Normally I'm like months and months and months behind the curve. I loved the portrayal of women in the movie.
Aminatou: Yay!
Ann: The thing that you can really . . . I mean one of the moments for me where I'm like oh, definitely a woman wrote or rewrote this and directed it is there's a scene where MLK and kind of the leadership group of the SCLC is at a woman's house and she's making them breakfast. And just this representation of the women who cooked for the people who were recognized as the leaders of the movement being important and integral in this really not beating you over the head with it kind of way was really awesome.
Aminatou: No, totally. And I think that culturally too it's really interesting that it comes out of this time where everybody is still reeling from what happened in Ferguson and what happened with Eric Gardner in New York. I thought the movie was fantastic. I think the director is just a top-notch lady. I hope she wins every single . . .
Ann: Every award.
Aminatou: I hope she wins every single award. The cinematography is nuts. Something -- I was really surprised at how powerful I thought this movie was because you know in the onset it seems, at least to me, I don't like to watch black biopics. How do you say that word? I don't know. [Laughs]
Ann: I don't ever know. Biopic?
Aminatou: Biopic? By-o-pic? Who knows? But, you know, because they're always so full of cliches right? Especially this one. It's just like black civil rights leader, how it's going to be . . . and I thought this side-stepped all of the cliches so, so, so well and it documented the '60s just like phenomenally. I don't know. I just . . . everything.
(30:00)
Ann: It avoided that problem because it wasn't a biopic. It wasn't like MLK in Selma. It was about the movement more generally and obviously he's a huge, huge part of that but what's so great about the film is people who are icons and activists and leaders even at that level are not the only people who are responsible for change and it was really, really great. I was really struck by the fact that the strategy was so shaped by how they were hoping to get media coverage. You know, this idea that they chose Selma for a demonstration specifically because the cops were terrible, old, racist good old boys and they have protested and demonstrated peacefully in New York for months and months and months without the kind of media attention they hoped to get. And even taking this fight to Selma, it wasn't just like how do we take this to the next level and go to the heart of where these terrible voter disenfranchising laws are? It was how do we get people with cameras to show up? And when I watched it I had this reaction of oh, interesting, that's not a guiding thing that informs strategy anymore because everybody has a camera and every protest can be documented. But the more I think about that I'm not sure it's correct because there are still flash points that get far more attention than your standard demonstration.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, I agree. I think too that attention is really apparent with the new generation of activists that you're seeing that are organizing in Ferguson. They're organizing in New York and all over the country around the Eric Gardner decision to not indict that cop. And a lot of people take these younger activists kind of for granted and don't realize that they do have a strategy and they are working really hard and they have demands. And I think that they are also -- they're very media savvy. You know, as opposed to some of these older . . . your like Al Sharptons and whatever who use media in this one very singular way. I think that it's been really interesting to see how social media's been really driving this but even traditional media is still a huge part of it.
(32:13)
Ann: Yeah. And there's an interesting scene in the movie where King and his sort of brain trust are talking about what their literal demands in legislation are going to be, like exactly which types of voter disenfranchisement they want to target. And, you know, that scene doesn't end with a resolution of them being like "This is our underlying ask" or "This is the concrete thing that's going to fix everything" which I thought was really interesting because, you know, that's often a criticism levied at modern day activists. Oh, what's their one ask? They don't have the one thing that they want. And it's like oh, wow, even now venerated who you would say are highly successful activist leaders didn't have like one and perfect asks, you know?
Aminatou: No, totally. You know, another thing too that we were talking about I think this movie really drove home for me is it clarified a lot of just misconceptions I've had of MLK and this idea specifically that people conflate non-violence with his non-anger. And I never understood that and I think that that movie makes that crystal clear, right?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: It's that the non-violent strategy is one thing but he is angry and he is outraged and yeah, it's like one of my friends, he said that when he was growing up he just believed that MLK wanted to walk up to white people and hug them which is clearly a foolish thing to believe. But I've also been reading the Ray speech and it's really -- and there's this whole amazing John Lewis chronicle and John Lewis is just the most courageous and crazy human to come out of the civil rights movement, you know? And to look at him now he's an older statesman and he's venerated but realizing that when these people were young they had very few fucks to give and really put their lives on the line.
(34:08)
Ann: Yeah. I mean all of the fucks to give. Actually way more fucks than most people give when they're that young.
Aminatou: Yeah, no. You know, the thing too, there's this really obvious parallel too in the movie about MLK and the epic speeches and how Obama is perceived right now. It's you always feel in a lot of the -- especially the iconic "I have a dream" speech that MLK is basically talking to white people. He's not talking to black people. And it's the same thing with Obama, right? Like in a lot of these race messages that he's been doing he just works really hard to keep the anger out of the message because you have to go out of your way to show love. And that was something that really, really struck me. The other thing is also just how powerful the script was because they didn't have the rights to any of the iconic speeches that we know and they had to write around that and rewrite them and that's massively impressive.
Ann: Yeah. And then -- but I think it also worked to their advantage wherein not that your ears really glaze over at things like the arc of history is long but it bends towards justice, but it's like we've heard it, you know what I mean? There's something about hearing the message but put through words that aren't totally familiar that I think actually made it stronger.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, agreed. So basically everybody go watch this movie. It's amazing. You'll probably cry. Yes, every . . .
Ann: Every high school history and civics teacher make your students watch this movie. [Laughs]
Aminatou: [Laughs] Also so much casual racism in Hollywood. Oh my god. Like talking racist shit about the president; talking racist shit about Kevin Hart. Love you Kevin Hart. [Laughs]
Ann: But question, do you think that Hollywood is worse or that it's just like if you tapped into every white American's email you would get stuff that was just that bad or worse?
Aminatou: So I don't know that it's worse. There's like segments of culture and population that I just believe that they're idiots, you know? No matter how hard they work I'm like hmm, this is why we don't come for you when important things happen. It's like people in fashion, so racist. And they're like "What are you talking about? There's one black girl walking the show." And I'm like okay. [Laughs]
Ann: Or they're like hashtag art, this is art.
(36:30)
Aminatou: Exactly, like hashtag art. I'm like you people will just get . . . yes. I'm like you will get forgotten and that's fine. That's not the hill I want to die on. But Hollywood executives, same thing. The thing -- actually to tie this back to MLK -- David Oyelowo who plays MLK in Selma was saying that the thing that was really weird, I don't know what the appropriate word for this was, about the leaks is that -- and he actually used this word -- it shows that you're not crazy, and by you he means like black people. [Laughs] You know, like you're not crazy and you're not paranoid.
Ann: It's all real.
Aminatou: About all of this stuff, right? He's like no, no, it's so real. One of my favorite things that's come out of this whole thing is Amy Pascal saying she's reached out to civil rights leaders like Jesse Jackson to start the healing process.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: And I'm like I hope that your healing process includes giving multi-movie deals to Ava DuVernay because she . . . [Laughs]
Ann: That's how you can atone.
Aminatou: Yes. I'm like that's how you can atone. But so anyway to answer your question I don't know that Hollywood's more racist than anyone but I know that a lot of dumb and ignorant people get really powerful jobs there and probably are never going to . . . like the fact that you can make a racist joke about the president on your email, that's how I know you're an idiot, right? Also can we talk about this for two seconds? So my personal email, full of shit talk. I will cop to that. If North Korea doxed my email today I'd probably lose a lot of friends, no joke. My professional email though on the other hand . . . [Laughs] Buttoned up as fuck because . . .
Ann: Do you think these are people who don't separate?
Aminatou: If you were going to get subpoenaed . . .
(38:18)
Ann: They just use work email for everything.
Aminatou: Yes, because old people. But also a lot of my Hollywood friends use their work emails for personal calls which I've always segregated.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: But I thought that everybody knew this, at least everybody who works in an office: if you want to talk shit about somebody pick up the phone. [Laughs] Just never put that stuff in writing, like somebody's bad review or somebody . . . just like never do. Pick up the phone, go over to somebody, talk to them about it, then recap the conversation on email if you have to document it. But you still have to be securitous about it. Because here's the thing that most people are idiots about about email: it's not that some weird foreign government is going to leak your email. The thing is everybody forwards your email. Do you really want some shitty thing you said about someone to get forwarded to them or get into their hands inadvertently? That was really shocking to me that executives don't understand this.
Ann: I mean as you said old people.
Aminatou: Ugh, old people just need to die out. This is crazy.
Ann: Well is that it for now? Do we have anything else?
Aminatou: I think that's it.
Ann: Email. Email your questions to callyrgf@gmail.com or tweet us at the same, callyrgf. You can also subscribe on iTunes or catch up with all our back episodes at callyourgirlfriend.com. I think I'm going to go eat dinner.
Aminatou: Yeah, go eat dinner. Happy New Year. See you in 2015.
Ann: Oh my god, see you on the Internet.