Free Boobin’

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7/3/15 - We answer listener questions about going braless, making it as a writer, how much we love Stanley Tucci and his polka dot apron, and a listener calls us out on how we talk about periods. Plus, an update on how white people are using diverse emoji and how to deal with an office frenemy.

Transcript below.

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CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Janelle Monae - Yoga

Go Home Productions - My Paperback Sharona

Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend



TRANSCRIPT: FREE BOOBIN

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda, free boobin and when it's warranted, a.k.a. summer, making it as a writer, why we love Stanley Tucci and his polka-dot apron, and a listener calls us out on how we talk about periods. Plus an update on how white people are using emoji and how to deal with an office frienemy.

[Theme Song]

Aminatou: Let's do some questions.

Ann: Want to do the bra one first?

Aminatou: Okay. Do you want to read it?

Ann: Okay, a question. "I have a question regarding going sans bra. Lately I have been really bucking the bra and I've found myself being more and more confident about leaving the house with the nips visible from beneath the t-shirts. This has not always been the case. I do not have small breasts -- 34D -- and all my life have struggled to really embrace the boobs as a wonderful part of my body as opposed to something to be ashamed of or self-conscious about how they were making boys feel. So this brings me to my question: when do you think it is appropriate to go free boobin?" Wow, praise to the phrase free boobin.

Aminatou: I'm telling you.

(1:40)

Ann: Right. "Obviously not work. Probably not when I go to visit grandma. But what about the grocery store? To grab a beer with a friend? To watch Game of Thrones with the guys on Sunday. Only at home? When am I allowed to be proud of these things on my chest and when do I have to be conscious of how my nipples are making people -- men -- uncomfortable? I'm trying to stop policing my own body but also trying to be respectful and mindful of the world around me. I don't want to be the girl who doesn't wear a bra, but also fuck the person who decided my nipples are sexual and that men's are acceptable." Ugh. I feel Janelle Monae's lyric get off my areola is especially relevant here.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Man, this is so . . . yeah, this is real for me. I go free boobin a lot more than society says I should. Obviously not work, even though I have free boobed at work. I think it depends on what you're wearing.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: And every single time when I leave the door I'm like man, this is dangerous business.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: But you know an actually insane thing? I have noticed that the people who police me the most when I'm not wearing a bra is other women.

Ann: Because they're jealous? They're like how'd you get away?

Aminatou: No, because they notice. They notice and they're nosy. I think that if a man sees your boobs I don't think he understands if there's a bra or not.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: You know, I don't think that they know. But the women, they know exactly what's happening.

Ann: I feel like it's a comfort issue. Do you do it when you know you're not going to be moving around a ton? Because one reason I leave with a bra on, even though my boobs are not that big, is because it is a physically uncomfortable jiggle factor sometimes.

Aminatou: You know, honestly, and I have ginormous boobs -- not to brag, actual fact -- it hurts more to be wearing a bra than not to. So obviously no running around, no strenuous exercise, but if I'm going to the grocery store, or yeah, I'm going to grab a beer with friends or whatever, I'm definitely not wearing a bra.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: Definitely not. And I feel okay about it. Like I don't not wear a bra and then wear a v-neck shirt. I think that's territory I'm not willing to veer down. But I am really okay with just the like "Hey, this is my casual look."

(3:50)

Ann: It's so funny, her email too. I always wonder, it's like are you just assuming that men are looking or commenting or whatever? Or is it like . . . I wonder if people are actually saying things to her.

Aminatou: Yeah, no, right? I think I've never had a dude say anything to me. Like I said, it was always women.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: And that made me really uncomfortable, especially when I was younger. I remember the story of how I started wearing a bra. I developed really early. I was not down for a bra. I never wanted one. I think I was in the fifth grade and I was running around with one of my little friends and her cousin -- I remember this, Christopher, awful, awful boy -- came up to me and goes "You have really big boobs for a fifth grader." And I went home that night, put on a bra, and I didn't take it off for like ten years.

Ann: Aww.

Aminatou: I slept in it, everything. And I was so self-conscious. And I think that's why it still triggers me when anybody brings it up.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: But I'm at the point where I'm comfortable enough and I don't . . . I think for me it's more a question of aesthetic. I think that sometimes if I'm not wearing a bra and I'm running around the grocery store I almost look like a mess. You know, there's sweatpants happening. There's, you know . . . and I'm like well, this is not really the image that I'm trying to project today.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: Yeah. I think it also just depends, man. Like some people have very pronounced nipples and some people don't.

Ann: Oh, so I was going to bring this up. I looked this up. A woman wrote about not wearing a bra for a week on BuzzFeed and she -- let's see, she says "Depending I'm either a 40D or 38E." So pretty big boobs. And one of her lessons from the week without a bra is people are more mature about cold nipples than you'd think.

Aminatou: [Laughs] I love that.

Ann: She writes "I put on my thinnest t-shirt. I'm in full droop mode." There's a GIF here of her in a thin v-neck with no bra. She basically is like she finds herself crossing her arms over them all day and finally at the end she writes "I began to realize that no one is going to punish me for breaking the rule about not wearing a bra except me."

(6:00)

Aminatou: Yeah, no, I think that's fair. Also standards around that stuff change all the time. I was re-watching Friends. Ann, there is nipple in every single Friends episode. That was just like that part of the late '90s/early 2000s. It's actually shocking because I watch it and I'm like whoa, I'm so aware of it because there is so little nipple on TV now.

Ann: Is that the era when mannequins all had nipples too?

Aminatou: Yes.

Ann: [Laughs] '90s mannequins.

Aminatou: I love a mannequin with a good nipple. It's really weird and I was like man, if the people of the early 2000s didn't have a problem with nipples I don't understand why it's such a big deal right now.

Ann: Right. I mean so is our advice to this free boobin lady never wear a bra when you don't want to wear one?

Aminatou: Yeah. My advice is live your life, man.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: Like, you know, I start taking my bra off in the elevator in my apartment. That's how that works.

Ann: Out one sleeve, out the other.

Aminatou: Yeah, no. Sometimes it's in the train I already start taking it off and I get home and it's like one fell swoop. Just be comfortable. Just be yourself. If someone brings it up, shame them amazingly and they won't do it again. Just be happy.

Ann: Also thank you for bringing the term free boobin into my life.

Aminatou: I know. Ugh, smart lady.

[Music]

Ann: All right, you want to read another one?

(7:44)

Aminatou: Okay. "I'm a writer by trade and I'm reaching my final year of college very soon." Aw, mazel tov. "The further into upper-division writing classes I get," upper-division, a word I have not heard in a long time. [Laughs] Sorry. "The further into the upper-division writing classes I get the more I realize how many great writers there are around me and I am beginning to feel discouraged in my validity as a writer. My  backup plan is to be a teacher like my mother but there's that saying those who can't, teach. How do I become more confident in my ability to write? And furthermore how can I come to terms with the fact that I might not be able to make it as a writer?" Oof.

Ann: First of all teaching is a great profession if that's what you want to do. Do you have advice for this lady?

Aminatou: I don't know, Ann. You're the writer. What would you do if you were in these upper-division classes? [Laughs]

Ann: I don't know if being a writer is necessary to answer this question actually.

Aminatou: No, I mean obviously it's not necessary. I'm just making a LOL. But I think this question is really interesting because it assumes that there's a certain number of people for every task and talent and also assumes that you cannot get better and assumes that she's the arbiter of what good writing is.

Ann: Right, so many things going on there.

Aminatou: Yeah, so many assumptions, right? One, this is going to be a little harsh, there's always going to be somebody that is better than you at something. That's just something you're going to have to get used to.

Ann: There are always going to be better writers especially.

Aminatou: I can't name one thing that I'm the best person at in my life. I can't. And I'm really okay with that. Except maybe watching shitty TV. Even then I have good rivals.

Ann: I mean I can think of lots of things that you're the best at but that's maybe not the best way to prop up your example here.

Aminatou: I mean, but you know, not like job things. No, but I think that that's true. But I think that's a reality that you have to be okay with. Don't compare yourself to other people because there's not one standard of comparison.

Ann: Right. Also the idea that because other people are great writers that means you can't produce your best work is crazy. It's not like there's a limited supply of great writing and other people have claimed it. There is an unending amount of really great writing in the world and acknowledging that other people making it doesn't mean you can't I think is very critical.

(10:05)

Aminatou: I'm like I see where you are coming from, I feel your pain, but also you have to take responsibility for your own life as Oprah says. [Laughs]

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: And there are many, many -- there are a great many writers out there. There's a lot of things that you can do. This is reminding me a lot of the plot of Girls last season where Hannah goes on to become a teacher, like she becomes a substitute teacher, and I'm like that anxiety is really real, right? And she feels like she failed as a writer and that's why she's a teacher. And, one, I'm like teaching is a great profession. Don't knock it.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: But also there's a place for you. You just have to work really hard at it. Like you can't beat anybody but yourself, and if that's what you want to do you're going to have to persevere.

Ann: Right. Also what does it mean to make it as a writer? I mean this is something that -- I'm technically a writer but I write lots of things that I'm not proud of and you will never see on my website, not just because it's like this isn't my best work, but because I'm like ugh, yes, I said yes to that assignment I really didn't think was that great because I needed to make a rent. I guess there are maybe a handful of people for whom making it as a writer means you only write exactly the work that you're most proud of and most fulfilled by and nothing else. But I have yet to personally know any of those writers. Like most writers I know have full-time jobs doing something else or supplement their writing work with other types of work. Making it is such an awful standard to hold yourself to.

Aminatou: Oh, also the other thing I was going to say is being in school is the wrong barometer for everything. You have to step into the actual real world. It's okay to have a lot of anxiety about other people at school being better than you but once you step outside of that world you will see that there are many more options for you.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: And there's a place for you somewhere.

(11:52)

Ann: Right. And also this question like how do I become more confident in my ability to write? Something about the way that's phrased says to me that you're not doing all that much writing. I don't know why. Maybe it's because it's phrased not how do I become more confident about the writing, like the things I'm producing every day; it's like my ability . . . it almost feels like it's stopping before you start. And it's one of those things where if you can get past the phase where you're like everything I read seems better than what I'm able to produce then you can keep doing it for a long time. If you're stopped in your tracks by other people's great writing instead of inspired by it, there's no future in that.

Aminatou: Ira Glass has this thing where he talks about how you have to suck really bad in the beginning and you have to work really hard at something. Like he talks about his start in radio and how awful he was.

Ann: Right, and recognizing . . .

Aminatou: And I think he's being -- yeah, he's being really honest about it. There are few people who just come out of the gate and produce amazing work. You don't know that you're good at something or bad at something unless you've been doing it for a long time. There's a lot of grace and forgiveness there.

Ann: Right, just doing it as a practice. The notion of you can only produce writing that's great and that's all that counts as writing is also wrong. You know, you can produce writing all the time, like constantly.

Aminatou: Yeah. 10,000 hours, boo-boo.

Ann: Yeah, for sure. There's something real about that.

Aminatou: Ugh, so real. Okay. Good luck to this lady. Keep writing.

Ann: Good luck. It's not as glamorous as you think to be a writer.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: That's like -- just here telling you that. It's still . . . there's still shit work associated with being a writer.

Aminatou: Amazing.

[Music]

(14:00)

Ann: Oh my god, okay.

Aminatou: Tell me.

Ann: This is the best. We both howled at this email. Thank you to this woman who wrote us. Can we discuss Stanley Tucci?

Aminatou: Hallelujah, yes we can.

Ann: "I saw him on the Graham Norton show talking about his new cookery book and it strikes me that he's the Renaissance Man's new Renaissance Man. Is he the perfect dinner party host? I am drawn to him."

Aminatou: I mean if by drawn to him you mean Stanley Tucci can get it, yes.

Ann: Stanley Tucci can get it. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I've been a member of that. Like Stanley Tucci has been high in the spank bank for years.

Ann: Ugh. I mean I don't even know what to say to this. Like yes, we can discuss Stanley Tucci, but in a way we don't really have that much to say because it's just fanning ourselves.

Aminatou: Yeah, I know, the Tuch is so . . . I have to look this up because I remember this so well. Frank Bernie wrote about him in the Times a million years ago and he was wearing the most beautiful apron in the world. Like it is seared in my memory in the paper that day. Hold on, I'm looking it up. Yep, found it. Hollywood ending with meatballs. Ann, you have to look this up. Look at his polka-dot apron.

Ann: Hang on.

Aminatou: He's making Branzino pizza, fettuccine, figs, and prosciutto.

Ann: Oh -- sorry, oh my god.

Aminatou: Like seared into my brain.

Ann: Is that an outdoor stone oven?

Aminatou: Yeah, so here's the deal with Stanley Tucci. He's married to Emily Blunt's sister. Emily Blunt that he was in Devil Wears Prada with, full circle. Because his first wife died of cancer which was really heartbreaking and he remarried and so there was a lot of fanfare around the second wedding and obviously it's a big Hollywood thing so he's friends with all of his costars. I have read the Tucci cookbook. It's good. It was very good. Also remember when he was Julia Child's husband in the Julian/Julia awful movie?

(15:55)

Ann: Yes I do. I mean the movie that I only watched the Julia parts of?

Aminatou: Yeah, I mean, yeah, only watch the Julia parts. He's the most amazing man.

Ann: I also highly recommend this list in The Toast by Mallory Ortberg called If Stanley Tucci Were Your Boyfriend. I'm not sure I even want to spoil it. It doesn't fully flesh out my personal Stanley Tucci fantasy but I think it offers some great suggestions.

Aminatou: Ugh, man, the Tuch, he's just amazing.

Ann: If Stanley Tucci were your boyfriend, it would always be the second week of fall.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: The sun would never set before 8 p.m. and you would never sweat again.

Aminatou: Just I love him. I love him in every -- I've never seen him in a movie and not loved the part that he played.

Ann: Yeah. Anyway . . .

Aminatou: And that includes that really shaky Hunger Games.

Ann: Wow.

Aminatou: Oh, he's amazing in Hunger Games, Ann. Yeah, no, we can discuss the Tuch. He is the best man.

Ann: Ugh, men we endorse.

Aminatou: I know. I'm like sweating now.

Ann: I know, me too.

Aminatou: I'm going to go Google Image every Stanley Tucci picture.

Ann: I'm going to go take a lap.

Aminatou: I'm going to re-watch Devil Wears Prada too. We've been making so many Jarlsberg jokes recently I might as well.

Ann: Please do.

[Clip Starts]

Stanley: I'll show you how to make what I think is a proper martini. The martini has changed over generations and generations. There used to be a lot of vermouth.

Male: You were a bartender at one point?

Stanley: I was a bartender when I was a kid, yeah.

Male: As a kid?

Stanley: Years ago you could be a bartender when you were 18 years old. You can't do that anymore. It was a great experience. Okay, so to do this, I'll just show you, we're just going to put a drop of vermouth.

Male: That's it?

Stanley: That's it, all right? And I'm going to make two different kinds of martinis. One is with vermouth and the other is with scotch. During World War II in London vermouth was not available. They substituted scotch. I happen to like it with scotch. Okay, so we're going to do that, then we're just going to stir it up.

Male: You never shake it?

Stanley: The purists don't shake.

Male: Okay.

Stanley: James Bond shook though didn't he?

Male: Was he a purist?

(18:00)

Stanley: Depends on which Bond it was I guess.

Male: So you add a little bit of Noilly Prat in this one and the other one will have a little bit of scotch? It's basically pure vodka.

Stanley: That's a martini. You want to put a little of this in. You use an olive or a twist. I actually prefer twist because I think it's a cleaner taste. Now taste this with the scotch.

Male: I like with the scotch.

Stanley: Yeah, it's warmer. It has more depth to it.

Male: I like a little bit of the smokiness.

Stanley: Yeah, yeah. Me too.

Male: This is really good but it's strong.

Stanley: It's strong?

Male: Yeah!

Stanley: It should be. Cheers.

Male: Well cheers.

[Clip Ends]

[Ads]

(20:00)

Aminatou: Okay, this next question is kind of long. I don't even know if it's a question again. "I'm a huge fan of the podcast and I love listening. I'm also all about the period talk because I relate so much and I'm glad that you're not afraid to talk about something that happens to loads of people but is considered really taboo." Yeah, this is the podcast for you.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: [Laughs] "However, I'm writing to ask if it's possible for you to use more inclusive language when talking about periods. I'm cis." Parenthesis. "I identify as the gender I was assigned at birth. But I know lots of trans and non-binary people with menstrual cycles too. Not all people who identify as women get periods and not all people who get periods are women. So I guess what I'm asking is that when period talk happens that it's acknowledged in some way that it's not just some women who get periods and are involved in this conversation. I usually just use the term people with periods/menstrual cycles and though not creative or romantic it doesn't leave people out. I think intersectionality is always important in feminism and in this situation I think it's important to look at the intersection of feminism with queer identities. You both seem like really cool people so I hope that this message doesn't come off as accusatory or argumentative. I truly love this show and wanted to bring up this thing that is sometimes left out of the conversation surrounding feminism. Thanks for reading." This listener is 16 so I feel very tender about it.

Ann: Wow. Advanced.

Aminatou: Very advanced. Oh, and then she sent -- "P.S. I found this great article in Everyday Feminism written by a trans guy about his period and thought it might be relevant." We're going to link to that.

Ann: Yeah. I mean my first thought is valid.

Aminatou: Very valid. What's your second thought?

Ann: My second thought is I think most of the time when we talk about periods -- I could be wrong. My feeling is a lot of the times when we talk about periods we talk about our periods and we both happen to identify as people who get colors who are women. That explains, though perhaps does not excuse our bias in that direction. Yeah, those are my main thoughts.

(22:04)

Aminatou: I concur with those thoughts. [Laughs] Sorry, I'm refilling my wine and trying not to pour this bottle all over my computer. I agree with you. I think that that's really real. I want to say also that of all of this kind of email I've gotten this was the nicest, least argumentative, least accusatory ever and I really want to commend that. Maybe I'm poking at a hornet's nest now. I agree a lot about the intersectionality. What is kind of lost on me though is this mandate to be inclusive all of the time. Does that make sense?

Ann: Yeah, for sure. I mean it is a real struggle thinking about language. It's sort of saying at what point does sort of mindfulness about very valid questions that she raises, at what point does that mindfulness work against the natural or what feels like the quickest and easiest way to talk about something? If I really sat down with a transcript of our podcast and was like "Okay, here are all the things I said that were not as inclusive as my beliefs really are," where I failed to live up to my beliefs about wanting this podcast to feel inclusive, I would be red pen circling a ton of things that we say for sure. And I think that in some ways the best thing is to sort of be reminded -- and gently reminded in this wonderful, nice way by our 16-year-old listener -- that even just occasionally recognizing not all people who get periods identify as women and not all women get periods is a good thing to sort of pepper in there. But I have questions also about just the language implications of trying to not be exclusive with every turn of phrase if that makes sense. I feel like that was very convoluted.

(24:00)

Aminatou: No, it makes sense to me. I get you. [Laughs]

Ann: I don't know.

Aminatou: There's a lot of people I want to send this email to as the "Here is a good template for talking to somebody about something that is a touchy subject."

Ann: I once received an email from I would say not a friend but like kind of a good Internet acquaintance, someone I have lots of friends in common with, about an article I wrote where I had talked about I think it was something that had to do with workplace experiences and what presenting like a woman meant in the workplace. And she, very much in the style of this email, was like "Hey, you know, you sort of mentioned that this is tough for people who are non-gender conforming in lots of ways, not just women. You mentioned that in the article once but I really felt like you didn't draw out this other very real issue in your column." And it was the same thing. I was like oh, okay, thank you for pointing this out in a very real way. I don't get a pass just because I listed at the beginning of the article this is tough for people who are gender non-conforming and for women and for people of color, that sort of non straight cis white dude laundry list of identities that can apply to a lot of social problems, or who experience problems a little differently maybe." And we had a great exchange about it. I don't know. Constant vigilance. I feel like it made me think about that in the next few weeks and then you have to -- sometimes it's your own reminder to yourself and sometimes it's like someone else nudging you and sometimes it's something you read where you're like "Oh, yeah, just being a little mindful of who is also listening and receiving this." Not everyone is exactly like ma.

Aminatou: Constant vigilance.

Ann: Constant vigilance.

Aminatou: I like that. I like that.

(25:45)

Ann: Yeah, all that is to say this is appreciated. And also the fact that she recognizes that this is something we would care about. So often notes like this are sort of "Why don't you care about people who aren't cisgender?" Which is obviously we both care about that. So she kind of has the assumption that these are issues we care about; why don't you talk about them like you care about it? Which I appreciate. I really appreciate.

Aminatou: I'm telling you, really good template. Good confrontation, small seed teed template.

Ann: Right. And we will link to this article about the trans guy about his period.

Aminatou: I'm looking it up right now and this is also hardcore. Man.

Ann: Awesome.

Aminatou: What else? What else?

Ann: Well, speaking of gentle calling out, I have a brief update in which I talk to other white people about their use of emoji.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Tell me.

Ann: And it reminded me, your use of the phrase constant vigilance reminded me because I was texting with our friend Beth Pickins (?) about this and we were just like whiteness, constant vigilance. But many people replied in the style of this one email that we got in which a listener says "I was really glad to hear you talk about the new emoji options and to learn that I'm not the only one who has weird feelings about which emoji complexion to use. Like Ann I'm also thrilled with this update but unsure how to apply it in my own use as a white person. I know you will roll your eyes at this but I often end up defaulting to the yellow to avoid having to choose. I know this is stupid and also an aspect of white guilt and shame and whatever." Sort of like that was a nice summary of a few of the conversations I had where people were like "Yeah, it seems complicated. I just defaulted to yellow." Which is interesting because since we talked about it I have just defaulted to many different things. I've gotten more confident about using the whole spectrum as opposed to feeling weird about deliberately using a color that was not white with a white friend.

(28:00)

Aminatou: I am rolling my eyes but it's with love.

Ann: I mean, you know, so much of this episode I feel is eye rolling with love.

Aminatou: [Laughs] I think that's our entire life.

Ann: Anyway . . .

Aminatou: Yeah, no, this is really fascinating to me. I don't know, man.

Ann: Also a friend of ours did send us a screenshot of his emoji usage and he's taking a full-spectrum approach as well. I appreciated that disclosure.

Aminatou: I know, but I will say his friendship circle also spans full-spectrum approach so I did not expect less from him.

Ann: There is a spectrum issue in terms of who are you texting with but I feel like the core question . . . I have the same question. I don't know. I guess I have more of a question when I text other white people but I still have the same question when I text someone who is not white which is -- yeah.

Aminatou: Ugh, that's fair. I want the NSA to just leak all white people emoji to me, like text exchanges. I'm like I want to know what's really going on here.

Ann: So much default yellow.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: And probably lots of things that -- I don't know, anyway. Again, whiteness, constant vigilance. That's all we need to . . .

Aminatou: Constant vigilance. I like it. That's a good MO.

Ann: Yeah. All right.

Aminatou: Okay. We have one more question and, man, okay. It's a doozy. I can't believe I just said doozy. "I have this coworker who really seems to dislike me. The harder I try to engage with her the worse it gets. I know that sometimes people just don't get along but it's a small team and we rely on each other to get our work done. I have tried to talk to her about it to see if I'd done something to offend her or hurt her but she refused to acknowledge anything is wrong. Her comments are borderline disrespectful but so subtle and so passive-aggressive that when I try to resolve the tension and move forward it was easy to make it seem like I was creating drama." Ugh, I hate that. [Laughs] "I also ramble a lot in these situations and apologize when it's not my fault so I'm sure that doesn't help." Nope.

(29:55)

"She's great at her job and is diligent and talented but I find our collaborations very difficult because she doesn't seem to want to engage with me. In short I would like to know if either of you have ever had a coworker who you rubbed the wrong way and how you dealt with it."

Ann: Did you just rub your microphone?

Aminatou: I think so.

Ann: Oof. It's so hard to know what's really going on here. I feel like I want an office cam view of these things. There seems to be a little bit of "I don't know what I've done. She won't engage with me." Like it seems -- obviously we're hearing this one-sided from someone but it also seems like there has to be another part to this story is all I'm saying. Got to hear both sides.

Aminatou: Well, I think the way that a lot of this is phrased is really interesting, right? I think if to the best of your knowledge you have not done anything and the person is not telling you what you have done, you're right, over apologizing is not happening because you're shouldering blame for something that you didn't do. But also it comes across as disingenuous and makes you seem spineless. The other part of this with the coworker is she might not like you but you don't have to like people to work with them, you know?

Ann: Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Aminatou: Sorry, go ahead.

Ann: No, I was going to say that there's this -- when she talks about what the coworker has actually done, she says "Her comments are borderline disrespectful but so subtle and so passive-aggressive." And there's something about that too that says to me I'm not at all saying it's all in your head but I do think the attempts to communicate are so often mis -- you know, received poorly, or maybe she is just a super straightforward person who doesn't see this as disrespect or maybe there isn't actually attention and she's being totally honest with you when she says "I don't know what you're talking about." But 100% Amina, I agree with you that if she's not acknowledging that anything's going on and there's not a problem with the work it seems to be the sort of thing where you just have to deal.

(32:10)

Aminatou: And here's the other thing too, right? There will always be people that don't like you. I don't know. Some people are beloved, god bless them. [Laughs]

Ann: Everybody has people who dislike them.

Aminatou: Yeah. I'm sure I've rubbed people the wrong way. I can see all of them just flashing before my eyes right now. There are a lot of people that I've rubbed the wrong way. But here's the deal: you're at work to do work. As long as both of your work doesn't suffer and this person isn't sabotaging you or throwing you under the bus, it's something that you can live with. But I also understand -- Ann, some people are real assholes.

Ann: Oh, for sure.

Aminatou: My first job out of college when I worked in D.C., I had these kids who were just mean to me and all ganged up on me. And I love it now because I see them all and I'm like "Hmm, look at how far we have all come. Fuck some of you."

Ann: Yeah, some of us further than others.

Aminatou: Yeah, you know? Now they're always writing me for recommendation letters and I'm just like please, I remember all of this shit. Life is long. We're all playing a long game. This person could be a huge asshole and it makes your life at work really unpleasant. And there are a couple of ways you could cope with it, right? As long as your work is not suffering, you're getting it done, all you're having is crazy, annoying interactions with this person, make sure to keep as much of them to email as possible and document everything. You know, never walk away from a work conversation with this person and not follow-up on email or whatever so they're not trying to throw you under the bus.

Ann: Right. It's notoriously hard to hear tone in email which is maybe a blessing in this case.

Aminatou: No, totally. And just choose to suck it up. Whatever. Also she's not saying if this person is on her level, above her, or whatever at work. I'm going to assume for the sake of argument they're kind of on the same level on the food chain and just have to interact with each other. The other thing that you can do is just make a big, bold move, and take this person out to lunch or to drinks and tell them "Hey, I'm sensing a lot of tension with us. We don't have to like each other. I just want to get our work done." Keep it to the work. Be a little aggressive. Show that you have a spine. Be prepared to bite back.

(34:20)

Ann: And yeah, be able to articulate when you say "I find our collaborations difficult," or "She doesn't seem to want to engage." What does that practically mean? She doesn't answer your emails? Or you ask questions in meetings and she rolls her eyes? What is the action that is associated with your feelings about it?

Aminatou: Exactly. If she just doesn't like you and you can't deal, you're going to have to get over that. But if it's really affecting your work product and your work quality and your work collaboration then be ready to articulate that very specifically. And also show that you can stand up for yourself. Sometimes that's kind of what it takes, like some people love to bully people and you just have to show that you're not going to take it.

Ann: Yeah. I mean bullies who feel insecure about themselves at work are like oh, the way I feel competent is to make someone else in this office feel less competent.

Aminatou: Listen, the best shade is living well so just work well, get ahead, get all your shit together, don't let this person incite anybody else on you. And here is the truth is you will always be held accountable by your work product so make sure that that doesn't suffer above all else.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: Ugh, I hate work bullies. You know when I worked in D.C. I had the best coworker, Cecile, who rescued me from the annoying people. And she would always say, whenever I got into an altercation with these people I hated, she would always say "Just throw them a bone." [Laughs] And that meant doing something nice for them or doing a task that nobody wanted to do but really it was very calculating and you need to figure out at your work what that is.

Ann: What is the bone?

(36:00)

Aminatou: What is the bone? And every once in a while you've got to throw them a bone.

Ann: I love that.

Aminatou: Ugh, people are the worst.

Ann: I mean, yes, I feel like that is the unfortunate theme here is that people are the worst.

Aminatou: People are the worst. Stand up for yourself and know.

Ann: Yeah. Good luck.

Aminatou: Okay. Good luck, or get a new job. [Laughs]

Ann: We're on your team either way.

Aminatou: I know. Good luck. Okay. I think that's it.

Ann: Yeah, that sounds good. Thanks for listening. You can find us so many places online, at callyourgirlfriend.com, on iTunes where if you love us you can leave us a nice review and subscribe so you can get notified when there are new episodes, on Twitter at @callyrgf, and you can also email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Special thanks to our producer and podcast witch Gina Delvac.

Aminatou: See you on the Internet.

Ann: See you on the Internet!