Peach Fuzz
6/19/15 - We discuss Rachel Dolezal, Ariana Grande’s empowerment rant, women who shave their faces and what to do when you don’t looove your long distance bestie’s new bestie.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Destry Maria Sibley
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
Prison for Kids - Scratched Fingers
Leisure - Got it Bad
Tom Misch - Sunshine
LA Priest - Lady’s in Trouble With the Law
Yukon Blonde - Saturday Night
Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend
TRANSCRIPT: PEACH FUZZ
[Ads]
(0:30)
Ann: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Aminatou: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Ann: I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: And I'm Aminatou Sow. This week on Call Your Girlfriend we'll be discussing Rachel Dolezal, Ariana Grande, women who shave their faces, and what to do when you don't get along with your long-distance bestie's new bestie.
[Theme Song]
Ann: What's going on?
Aminatou: You know . . .
Ann: Do we say that every time?
Aminatou: I think so. I don't know, I'm packing going on the road for a while starting tomorrow and it's a disaster.
Ann: The packing or the going on the road?
Aminatou: The packing. Like I try to pack efficiently but I still end up wearing the same four things all the time and I'm like why don't I just carry those four things?
Ann: When I was/we were in New York maybe a week ago I achieved a new level of packing where I wore every item that I had brought with me which is maybe the first time in my entire life I ever did that and it was not easy.
(2:00)
Aminatou: Oh, that's my goal every time. If I come back and something hasn't been worn I feel like a huge failure.
Ann: Also why hasn't Marie Condo disrupted packing yet? I feel like this is her next book.
Aminatou: I mean she kind of did. [Laughs]
Ann: She did. You mean her roll your underwear technique?
Aminatou: She kind of addresses it, only have clothes you're going to wear.
Ann: Well sure, but I feel like owning and packing are two different things.
Aminatou: It's true. So I won't name this lady that we know that's an obsessive packer and she has Pinterest boards and follows blogs about this. How are flight attendants packing? And that's how I got obsessed with packing.
Ann: Oh my god, how are flight attendants packing?
Aminatou: Very efficiently, Ann.
Ann: Are they rolling? Are they rolling their . . .
Aminatou: Rolling everything. There's rolling involved. There's weird shit that you do with your shoes. Also I got a new suitcase from a review on . . . what's that review site, The Sweet Home?
Ann: I don't buy anything that's not Sweet Home approved.
Aminatou: Oh yeah, no. But I mean the suitcase was game-changer because you know I don't pack a bag -- that's for fools -- and I was like okay, I can do this. My only problem is liquids. I just . . . I'm always getting in fights with TSA. I'm like I'm sorry, that is 4.3 ounces. I'm sorry, that's not a liquid. That's a solid.
Ann: Wait, but I thought you had TSA pre which kind of gets you out of all liquid convos, right?
Aminatou: No, you still get into liquid conversations if they scan your bag.
Ann: Well I'm a newcomer to TSA pre. I believe I texted you about its life-changing properties. But they haven't once pulled out liquid items from my bag when I sent it through.
Aminatou: That's because you're not a black person traveling.
Ann: I . . . exactly.
(3:55)
Aminatou: I get stopped every single time for a random check because I'm a foreigner. It's my passport.
Ann: "Random," air quotes.
Aminatou: Yeah, I'm like random, great. It's been four times at SFO this month.
Ann: Cool story.
Aminatou: Cool story. What's going on with you?
Ann: I am also packing -- or actually I haven't started yet, about to start packing, because I am also getting on an airplane tomorrow. I'm going to Detroit on a reporting trip and to see our good friend Martha who lives there.
Aminatou: Oh, sexiest babe in all of maybe the Midwest.
Ann: Definitely. I mean definitely in the like eastern timezone portion of the Midwest, no question.
Aminatou: Such a babe.
Ann: So that's happening. I'm very excited. I haven't been to Detroit in like ten years and there are lots of things I want to do. And it's also work, so you know, that. I have to bring things that are sort of worky. I have basically eliminated anything that looks sort of officey, sort of professional from my wardrobe and I'm just now wondering how much I can get away with.
Aminatou: I guess we'll find out.
Ann: We'll find out. Anyway, but yeah, kind of boring. Also I realized standing in my closet that it's going to be pretty hot in here all summer. I am kind of sweating -- sweating kind of profusely, so that should make future summer podcasting kind of interesting.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You'll be fine. My one advice for you is to not wear ripped jeans. I wore ripped jeans to a really important meeting in New York, and I . . . like I don't think the people mind but I care. It all happened very last-minute so to be fair it's not my fault. They were like "can you come in today?" and I was like "Sure!" I look like I'm going to Bonnaroo but like . . .
Ann: You had done some stripped-down packing and it was the only pair of jeans you had?
(5:45)
Aminatou: I mean I looked very cool but when I walked into this office and everybody was really buttoned up I was like ugh, I look like that consultant. It was really funny.
Ann: But were you there to tell them about cool things that were happening on the Internet with the kids these days?
Aminatou: Not really. Not really.
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: But yeah, I was like oh, man, I haven't felt office self-conscious in a long time and honestly I think it's fine but I was like maybe ripped jeans is where I draw the line.
Ann: You're like my knees are exposed and I'm wearing pants right now.
Aminatou: Oh my god, my knees were so exposed. My t-shirt was obnoxious. It was a lot of things.
Ann: Ugh, never having to say you're sorry.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know? I was like "Hi, I'm your consultant. That's why I look like this, like a teen."
Ann: [Laughs] Relevant. You look relevant.
Aminatou: Thank you.
[Music]
Ann: All right, do you want to talk about the thing that everyone is talking about?
Aminatou: Which one? There's so many of them.
Ann: [Laughs] I'm talking about a certain Internety but also IRL scandal about a white woman living much of her life and posing as a black woman.
Aminatou: Ann, obsessed. I am obsessed with this story. I hope Kate Hudson plays her in the movie. They look alike.
Ann: Oh! Oh I wish you could see my face right now.
Aminatou: It's true!
Ann: It's the sad like realizing you're true. You're right. You're so right.
Aminatou: Ugh, it's so good. Okay, set us up with the story. What's going on?
Ann: I mean I don't even know where to begin. This is a woman who for how many years? I guess I don't know the total number of years at this point.
Aminatou: I think she's had this job for less than a year but she's also been a professor for a couple years.
(7:50)
Ann: Right, Rachel Dolezal who went to Howard University, historically black college, who . . .
Aminatou: Go Bisons!
Ann: Was white and called herself white, identified as white when she was at Howard. The most recent news as of this podcast recording is she sued the university for discriminating against her because she was white.
Aminatou: Correct.
Ann: That's a real -- that was a real head-spinning thing to wake up to today, that news. But she's been the head of her local NAACP chapter in Spokane, Washington for a number of years and has been leading seminars about things such as black women's hair. She's been posting things on social media about how should you watch movies with racially-heavy themes in theaters full of white people? I don't know. What other -- I mean you've read just as many articles as I have. What am I missing?
Aminatou: I mean I think the key thing for me that is missing is the reason that she got busted is because for . . . she has done this many times where she has alleged a hate crime against her and in the latest iteration of it somebody had left some racist thing in her P.O. box and the post office was like "Hmm, that sounds suspicious because you have a P.O. box and this letter is not metered so that means it didn't go through the post office and somebody literally needed a key to your P.O. box to do this."
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: It's like if she had done it at home it's like somebody just came on your porch and dropped the letter off. And that's kind of how the investigation started and it's happened multiple times. I think it's a little disturbing also when you put it in the context of her lawsuit against Howard that she lost and she actually had to pay the university.
Ann: Yeah.
(9:45)
Aminatou: So people go fishing, call her parents, and her parents are like "Actually hashtag we're white people." Then they do my favorite thing that white people do where they list every country that they're from.
Ann: I'm like two percent Lithuanian and three percent Polish and 40 percent Swedish. Yeah.
Aminatou: I love it when white people do that. "I'm like 17 percent Spanish!" and I'm like "Good for you!" [Laughter] Yeah, so they do that thing and then everybody's like what? Then her parents are like "Yeah, we're European descent. Rachel's been doing this for a while. She doesn't really talk to us." And then the rest is history. She's a professor of Africana studies at the University of Washington, or Eastern Washington University, sorry. It's kind of baffling because we don't really have a word for this, right? We have a word for when black people have pretended to be white which is passing. There's no . . .
Ann: Or have not corrected people who have assumed they're white. Yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, maybe reverse hustle? I don't know. There's a whole legacy in African-American history of passing where people who . . . the people who founded the NAACP, some of them are passing. It's very prevalent. If you haven't seen this amazing documentary called Little White Lie by Lacy Schwartz you should. It's about this young woman who finds out that she's African-American but she's raised by white people and it's fascinating. She's like our age. The reverse we have a firm grasp on. This white catfish lady thing, unheard of.
Ann: And I think the other thing -- I mean the probably fake hate crime reports are the sort of . . . the sticking point for a lot of people, because on a lot of fronts you're like well, if this woman were using her assumed racial identity to actively advocate policies that are designed to help or advance people of color then maybe the situation would be different. It's hard to figure out exactly why it's so upsetting. Maybe it's not hard. Maybe you know exactly why.
(11:48)
Aminatou: No, I think that you're right. I think that it is disturbing but I think that upsetedness for a lot of people is not necessarily set. Like I personally was really amused by this whole story until the fact that she sued Howard for discrimination against being white today came out. That's when I got really disturbed, right? Because I was like hmm, this is a thing that really irks people of color, especially black people. It's this performance of blackness where people want to perform the blackness, they want to be cool, but they don't want to share the burden and that is really disturbing to me. You know, obviously we don't know her. This lady could be not very mentally-stable, that's one thing to put out there, but also people do things for really weird reasons and this . . . it's never going to make sense to any of us.
Ann: One thing that I find kind of disappointing -- well really disappointing but weirdly understandable is her wanting to take kind of a shortcut to being an advocate. Because the thing is, as many people have pointed out, there's nothing to say that you as a woman who identifies as white can't be an active member of the NAACP.
Aminatou: Exactly.
Ann: And you can't advocate for these positions. And yeah, you probably have to do it in a little bit of a different way that is in some ways more complicated but I don't know if it's more complicated than inventing an entire aspect of your identity. You know, it's almost like she was like oh, it's too hard to figure out how to advocate for these causes with racial privilege that I inherited so I'm just going to pretend I didn't inherit any racial privilege.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know, I think her parents were quoted as saying she's been doing this . . . where is it? I'm actually reading the quote, the reported quote. "She has over the last 20 years assimilated herself into the African-American community through her various advocacy and social justice work," and so that may be part of the answer. Even the NAACP on their Facebook page really praised the work that she'd been doing, so clearly she was really effective at what she was doing. I don't know what mentally and psychologically has to happen for you that you feel like you have to crossover but I think that is what is really deeply upsetting to people.
Ann: Right, yeah.
(14:05)
Aminatou: It's just, oof, it's weird. It just reminds me a lot of that Dave Chappelle, like the black KK . . .
Ann: Oh, yeah, the blind -- the blind guy?
Aminatou: Yeah, which for its time was hilarious and funny but when I think about it in the reverse it disturbs me so much.
[Clip Starts]
Male: We are looking for a Clayton Bigsby.
Male: Well look no further, fellow. You found him.
Male: Clayton Bigsby, the author?
Male: What, you don't think I can write them books? Just because I'm blind doesn't mean I'm dumb.
Male: How could this have happened? A black white supremacist.
[Clip Ends]
Aminatou: But I think there's also something to this whole conversation about what the actual political delegation of race is. I know that whenever I have to fill out a census form I feel weird about it even though I'm black. I come from African people. I'm not African-American.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: But even for me filling out that box that says black or African-American is really weird because I don't know politically really what that means.
Ann: And I personally feel disenfranchised that I can't check German-Irish white person.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I have to just check plain white which I feel really subsumes my mixed western European identity. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, no, but if you think about the Latino box.
Ann: Oh, for sure.
Aminatou: That's the most weirdly manufactured, like crazy . . . it's so arbitrary. It's so, so, so arbitrary.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And I think that's the other thing too that's been really insane about this conversation is it's brought out a lot of race anxiety for a lot of people because we still really don't agree on what those boxes are and if they're necessary at all.
Ann: Right, and there has been a lot of conversation around this because of Matt Johnson's new book.
Aminatou: Oh, it's so good. It's so good.
(16:05)
Ann: Yeah, there's a really great -- he did a conversation with our pal Calier (?) about just biracial identity, an incredibly complex thing that is usually not an option in the checkbox context. You know, it's interesting to think about this woman Rachel Dolezal, like if she were 2% African-American how would that change the conversation? What percentage is it? You know, it's kind of been this case that okay, obviously zero so it's a different conversation but I think that's something that a lot of smart writers who we read have been talking about and grappling with before she was sort of a sensationalist face to the story.
Aminatou: Yeah. There's also other aspects of the story too that I just realize are so offensive to me. There's the fact that there's a picture of a clearly African-American man that she paraded around as her father.
Ann: Ugh, that one, yeah.
Aminatou: You know, and then her parents had adopted these African-American children and she claimed them as her own. So it's like fake father, fake children. It's just this performance of blackness again where it's like you can't take the good parts and just say the rest of our pain isn't real and I think that that's really disturbing.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: But good point on the Matt Johnson book Loving Day. Everybody should read that. Somebody sent me . . . on Mother's Day actually one of our friends sent me a text that was like "This is going to sound really insensitive but I don't mean it to." She was like "A lot of our black friends have white moms and that was a thing I was not -- I didn't know." And I was like yeah, there's this whole history around biracial people and multicultural people and we still don't reckon with it well, right?
Ann: Right.
(17:50)
Aminatou: And even today people are weirded out by it which is ridiculous.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Because it's none of your business. But it's like with Rachel, who knows? Maybe it's like plot twist, maybe her parents are passing as white.
Ann: Yeah, we have no idea where this thing is going to end up. And I don't know, I'm a little bit torn because yeah, obviously the Internet is kind of a terrible place and people are saying some terrible things. But I also think that unlike a lot of super huge, shamey internet blow-ups this raises actually very relevant questions. [Laughs] This is like, as you say, a conversation that has been happening among certain people and should probably be happening among a wider subset of the population.
Aminatou: Yeah. Because I will say the one comical part of all of this is that interview when the reporter asked her "Are you African-American?" and she looked so shocked and said "I don't understand the question."
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: Like Rachel, well-played. Well-played. I died when that happened.
Ann: Right, pleading ignorance.
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like who knows? Oh, also did I ever tell you this? You know I did the 23andMe DNA test?
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: And my family, we're from Guinea and West Africa. Nobody is from anywhere else. We have family history back to like the sixth century. My grandparents are probably some of the most racist people I know when it comes to being outside of black people. My DNA results state that I am 20-something percent Caucasian.
Ann: Whoa.
Aminatou: Isn't that crazy?
Ann: Whoa.
Aminatou: I know. So now it's like -- you know, and I'm trying to talk to the older folks about it and everybody's like "I don't understand the question."
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: That is fascinating to me. That's just like who is not telling the truth? But also life is a lot more complicated than people make it out to me.
(19:50)
Ann: Right. And also maybe who isn't lying but who does not have all the information and assumes that they do, you know?
Aminatou: Yo, trust. In my family somebody's probably lying the way this is going. But yeah, it's really fraught because in my generation a lot of people had interracial marriages and it's created a lot of strife within our family every once in a while and the crutch is always that, right? It's that no, we've always been this tribe of black person. And now I want to write Henry Louis Gates and be like "Hi, I did your weird eugenics project. Can you put me on your TV show? I have questions."
Ann: I mean there's a chance, right?
Aminatou: I mean not unless I become famous, like Ben Affleck famous.
Ann: I think you could probably get on. I'm going to put the bar lower than Ben Affleck famous.
Aminatou: I don't know, but did you hear this? How Ben Affleck made him take out his slave ancestors?
Ann: Uh, yeah.
Aminatou: So good. So I feel like Henry Louis Gates owes -- he owes the common people something.
Ann: That's like a different version of the Rachel Dolezal, "I'm going to rewrite my history." It's like okay, we're white people but we're not slave-owning white people. We're like pure white people, morally pure.
Aminatou: I know. It's like whenever I meet a white person I'm always like . . . deep down inside I'm like how many slaves did your family own? Because I didn't think it was possible for them not to, but also I don't hold it against them. It's weird. This conversation's getting real. Thank you Ben Affleck. [Laughs]
Ann: Rather no thank you but also . . .
Aminatou: This whole Rachel thing is crazy. It's so -- it's crazy because it's the first time we've heard of it. I want somebody to go out unearthing all these other people who are doing this, because this is the thing I will say about Rachel is she nailed the hair. She like nailed it. That woman had dreadlocks and box braids. She risked traction alopecia to lie about her heritage. That's madness to me.
Ann: That's true. She went as far as she could go probably.
(21:52)
Aminatou: I know. If her parents hadn't snitched on her we wouldn't be here now, you know?
Ann: That's the thing about this story. I'm always like how many things like this just never, ever get reported or people never get found out?
Aminatou: No, totally. With her it's the hate crime thing and it's like who knows? Who knows? But, you know, like I was telling you earlier the fact that she's this comfortable using the police and the legal system to right her slights against her is how I know she's probably white. That's crazy.
Ann: Yeah. Also the fact that she has a name that rhymes with racial.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I mean you can't even -- you can't make it up. It's just so . . .
Aminatou: Oh my god, Rach.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: This is -- yeah, it's also it's like why would you want to leave the white world to live in the black world? Who knows? People are weird. People are weird.
[Music and Ads]
(26:18)
Ann: Do you want to talk about Ariana Grande while we're at it?
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Do you want to emoji hand Ariana Grande?
Aminatou: It'll be very short.
Ann: Great.
Aminatou: Ann, you know how I like one artist Ariana Grande. I like her jams.
Ann: I mean who doesn't?
Aminatou: It's possible to like the artist and overlook a lot of things about them but I'm done overlooking things. So Ariana Grande a couple weeks ago spoke her mind on social media where she went on this feminist rant that people are calling epic. [Laughs] And I mean for a feminist rant it was really good, you know? She went into double standards and misogyny. There's a Gloria Steinem quote. All incredibly valid points. But I'm asking the people to stay woke. It's very hard for me to defend Ariana Grande when she looks like a sexy baby and she contributes to a lot of the stereotypes against her and I feel like, I don't know, I feel like this makes me a little bit of a bad person but I really stand by it. I'm like you literally cannot perpetrate these gross, sexist stereotypes and then ask people to also stand with you. That's not cool.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Because she's basically a sexy baby.
Ann: Also the word empowerment featured prominently and I feel like that is just a red flag lately, that it's maybe a suspect brand of feminism.
Aminatou: It's so suspect. I'm like I'm sorry, Nicki Minaj is already saying this so you guys should probably just make Nicki your savior but I just . . . it's very hard to be inclusive when you also watch people contribute to their own oppression.
Ann: Oof.
(28:00)
Aminatou: And especially make money from it. Like usually I would not care but I'm like I'm sorry, you make a lot of money from wearing that high pony tail and doing that baby voice and that baby act. Drop it.
Ann: Okay, the high pony is not the worst.
Aminatou: Ann, the high pony is part of the problem. In the overall look. Don't make me police her whole look. It's part of it. It's totally . . .
Ann: All right.
Aminatou: Just pull up a picture. It's part of it. It's infantalizing.
Ann: All right, it does facilitate a certain type of infantilizing head cock, you know? That is the problem with the pony. But in general a high pony can be fine.
Aminatou: I don't know, I just feel like these women who make money off of this stuff, it's like you've got to step up your game a little bit more. We see right through you.
Ann: Right. I think it's also hard to figure out where to draw the line with some of this stuff because I agree this is a situation where you're like okay, maybe look at your life, look at your choices as opposed to just ranting on the Internet about these issues. Fair enough.
Aminatou: Yes.
Ann: But there are a lot of other artists who identify as feminists who we love and respect who share certain elements of their look in common with Ariana Grande.
Aminatou: Oh, I call all of those ladies out too but this was particularly egregious because it was part of this manifesto rant thing and I was like I'm sorry, we have to be more skeptical of our pop stars is what I'm saying.
Ann: Ooh, I like that.
Aminatou: You just have to. It's like anybody who comes trying to sell you some empowerment gospel water, you can't . . . Ariana Grande, good jams. Stay woke.
[Music]
Ann: Speaking on sort of feminist self-presentation I want to talk about this article that was in the New York Times recently about women shaving their face.
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
(29:53)
Ann: Which like . . . so I think there is some potential here, right? I think it's interesting to say women are doing this grooming thing that has long been associated with men. Here's why they like it. But it was just full of all of this gross oh, I see women with a little bit of fuzz on their upper lip and I'm like you can see that; why aren't you shaving it? Or waxing is not enough. It's one thing to say some women feel awesome when they shave their faces full-stop and it's another to say women who have any kind of facial hair are gross, you know what I mean?
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean facial hair happens. People who tell you that they don't have facial hair . . .
Ann: Are lying.
Aminatou: Well, yeah, it's like they're lying or -- it's a part of the body that you can't control.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: So it's one of those making fun of people for it is very middle school stupid.
Ann: Well also it's not even making fun of women who grow facial hair so much as policing women who don't feel the need to meticulously remove it as well.
Aminatou: Exactly. That's true. The Kardashians talk about their hair all the time.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Those ladies laser like every three shows and they will show you everywhere the laser is going.
Ann: They're going to regret that when the strong sideburns comes into fashion for women.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: They're just going to like -- it's like those women who went with really, really tiny eyebrows and then bushy brows came back and then there were all these tutorials about how to pencil on thicker eyebrows.
Aminatou: Yeah, and it's like you lost that war a long time ago.
Ann: Exactly. You threw your stakes in with the tiny eyebrow gang and this is what you have to do now. What you have to live with.
Aminatou: I'm just seeing like a gang of ladies with tiny eyebrows and I'm terrified. [Laughs]
Ann: But listen, so this is the quote from the women shaving article. "'Women, especially blondes, think they have no facial hair because it's so light but when the sunlight hits it it looks like you could run your fingers through it,' she said. 'I just want to grab them and be like here's my tinkle.'" which is a lady face-shaving razor. And I was just like ugh, gross. Can you not just advocate for I like shaving my face and that's a thing I like without shitting on other women who don't?
(32:05)
Aminatou: I know. That's -- ugh, that's so annoying. Also just women who notice things like that and feel they have to say something about it, I'm like you're the first one I'm going to throw off the boat when the war comes.
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: Yes, you notice it. You don't necessarily have to share it. It's just very Mean Girls behavior.
Ann: It's very Mean Girls behavior. But I also have a very early . . . I don't remember how old I would've been. I probably would've been -- I was definitely old enough to be worrying about puberty things. I have a memory of walking in on my mom shaving her face when I was a kid, like shaving her mustache.
Aminatou: Oh?
Ann: And I remember kind of like I had opened the door on her taking a shit. You know, it was like [Gasps] like oh, I've seen something I shouldn't seen. I remember being like I know I can't talk about this. And it's so funny because now I'm just like who cares? Whatever. But I thought about it when I read this article.
Aminatou: It felt really transgressive though.
Ann: Totally. I'm like oh my god, I saw my mom doing a man thing.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's like we don't talk about grooming rituals unless they're sexy, right?
Ann: Exactly.
Aminatou: And if you live with someone or you're really good friends with someone you notice their good and bad days.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: Just the week of my period where really if you get close to me I just look like one of those Jurassic Park dinosaurs, there's no . . . like everything has broken down, or when I get off a plane or something. But, you know, it's like you just don't care. And I think -- it's like I was telling you that I haven't shaved my armpits in I don't know, two or three years. True story. I think they just stopped growing. Like there's a little bit of hair. It's nothing crazy. But also I have no anxiety about it.
Ann: Right. Well you just adjust, you know?
(33:52)
Aminatou: Yeah, you just adjust. It just becomes a normal part of your routine. But I also think that if somebody said something and tried to shame me about it I would probably be really sad or I'd freak out.
Ann: Yeah, it's one of those things where I feel an obligation not to police other women's grooming choices and that ranges from hair to whether you wear makeup to like -- I guess I just policed skinny eyebrows but would not stop someone on the street and be like . . .
Aminatou: Yeah, they're just in-your-face though is the problem.
Ann: [Laughs] Permanent surprise face.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, it's . . . the whole thing is it's very strange because obviously everybody's grooming changes. It adjusts with fashion. It adjusts with their own comfort level. And it's not something that we talk about a lot. Like people will talk about beauty regimens but nobody will talk about grooming regimens. And on one hand it's kind of a taboo but on the other hand it's like who the fuck cares? Why do I care? Like if I see a beautiful woman on TV groomed to the gods, I see a beautiful woman in a magazine, I'm like this is a lot of Photoshop. But it never really affects my own presentation of self. I think that it's insane to have anxiety over things that you don't know a lot about or can't control or don't have enough money to do for yourself.
Ann: Yeah. I mean and obviously anxiety is understandable. I think you're right that it's not healthy or useful but stupid articles like this one which was such a great opportunity to say "Hey, this is a thing women do," and kind of normalize it and be like "Yeah, so?"
Aminatou: Right, like I would've never thought to shave my face because I guess when you're younger people always tell you that whatever you take a razor to will come back looking crazy.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: But now that I have been presented with this option I will probably explore it.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: I was like oh, this is a thing you can do? I just didn't know you could do it. I think it's kind of rad.
Ann: Totally. And like this article makes clear that is bullshit, which I think is interesting. Like dismantling inherited beauty lore is always interesting, but yeah, it was . . . whatever. I mean I guess why expect better of the style section ever?
(36:05)
Aminatou: I expect a lot from the style section because when the style section is good the style section is good. People are just . . . it's society I have a problem with. [Laughs]
Ann: I don't know. I mean yes and no. I think that this article -- I don't know, there were choices made about how to quote women and they didn't just quote . . . I mean they definitely quote women who are like "It's cool, I like to shave." There's a YouTube video from some Bachelor contestant.
Aminatou: Oh, Michelle! Michelle did this on The Bachelor, yes.
Ann: Michelle Money. And in her YouTube video about women and facial hair it says "Men don't like it. Get rid of it." I'm like wrong message. Just wrong.
Aminatou: Right? Like who cares? Did I tell you the story about the time that I went -- this is the last time I got my eyebrows waxed also ever. I used to be a religious eyebrow waxer and this was maybe five years ago. We were still living in D.C. I went to get my eyebrows waxed and through some miscommunication -- it happened so fast -- this lady also put wax all over my cheek and waxed the hair off.
Ann: Ooh. Ugh.
Aminatou: The only part of my body I'd ever gotten waxed is my eyebrows. The pain is nothing. Like I've never felt pain. It pinches a little. The cheek? I thought I was going to die. And then now we have this language barrier. You know, half of my cheek is on fire.
Ann: Oh no.
Aminatou: I'm ready to get off this table, but then I look on the table and literally -- maybe this is all black people, it was definitely me -- when there is no hair on your face you're a little bit pink and it was so noticeable from the other half of my face.
Ann: Oh no.
Aminatou: It was crazy. So then I had to make her wax all of my face. [Laughs] Like there was nothing else to do about it. It's like she had to wax the other half of my face. I screamed the whole time. I was like god, this is going to be insane. Then I step outside and the December cold -- I had to put the scarf over my face, I've never been so cold in my life.
Ann: Aww.
(38:12)
Aminatou: That hair is there for a reason and she removed all of it. I looked pink for about a week. Every time somebody saw me they would say "There's something really different about you" but they couldn't figure out what it was.
Ann: Whoa.
Aminatou: And it was I have not a single hair on my face right now. It was so painful.
Ann: How long did it take to grow back? Do you remember?
Aminatou: Oh, like months.
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: It felt weeks before my skin felt okay then I've never been back to wax anything because I was like you can't risk miscommunication. It was so painful, but also ludicrous. It happened so . . . I don't know what about this lady that when I came in and showed my eyebrows that made her -- you know, she's like "Hey, you have a lot of hair on your face, let's remove it," and didn't consult me. Happened so fast.
Ann: I also think bearded ladies are hot.
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean sure.
Ann: I don't know. I think there is something about a soft edge to your face that a little bit of peach fuzz or maybe a lot of peach fuzz gives that is actually appealing. I don't know. Like the soft angles of a face full of peach fuzz.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yeah. I guess peach fuzz is a thing. You know, but also who doesn't have that one rogue hair? Like the one hair that when you get your period it's out of control? You know the hair I'm talking about.
Ann: Oh my god, I definitely . . .
Aminatou: It's like on your chin. I've had that hair since I was 12.
Ann: Mine is on my neck and it basically like an evil groundhog sprouts out of this neck mole I have when I'm about to get my period. It's truly disgusting.
Aminatou: [Laughs] No, yeah. I'm like I've been battling this hair since I was a tween. It's fine. Sometimes it's very comforting.
Ann: Yeah.
(39:55)
Aminatou: Yeah, it's like you never notice it grow but when it's there it's there. You're just like ugh.
Ann: I wonder when the one big mole with a single course hair coming out of it will be reclaimed as part of the witchiness is cool movement.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Like when it becomes a cool occult thing to have the mole with the hair on your chin.
Aminatou: We're doing it. We're doing it. I'm pro- hair on your body. If you're happy with it you don't have to do anything about it.
Ann: Right, yeah. And don't listen to these judgey face-shavers in the New York Times.
Aminatou: No, totally, do what you want. If you want to remove your hair because it's comfortable do it. If you like having your hair keep your fucking hair. It's the best.
Ann: Ugh, all right.
Aminatou: What else are we talking -- now I'm like playing with my hair. [Laughs]
Ann: You're playing with your armpit hair?
Aminatou: No, I'm playing with my one rogue period hair. It's like under my chin.
[Music]
Ann: A listener writes "My long-distance bestie has a new short-distance bestie." Aww. "She always tells me so much about her new bestie and how similar we are but whenever the three of us hang out it feels like the most awkward experience in the entire world. I feel like I have zero things in common with her new bestie and we don't click at all. One time we were left alone together while our mutual bestie stepped away for a few minutes and I remember wishing the couch would just swallow me up so I wouldn't have to friend-flirt with her." Aww. "I'm trying to get along with new bestie but I don't really know how to. How do I get her new bestie to fall into friend-love with me so the three of us can live happily ever after in a friendship trifecta? Can a three-way long-distance bestie relationship even work? Side-note, also my bestie hasn't watched the Bad Blood music video yet and I wonder how we are even friends sometimes. Actually I'm pretty sure she hasn't seen Blank Space or even Shake it Off either and I'm seriously questioning our friendship right now. TBH."
(42:12)
Aminatou: Yo, that is real. I'm more concerned about the fact that your friend hasn't invested in something you like than this short-distance bestie.
Ann: Maybe she's actually solved her own problem, like the answer is the three of them watching a bunch of Taylor Swift videos together.
Aminatou: I know, but this is like the romantic comedy conundrum. I don't want you to; I want you to want to. [Laughs] So this is what's happening here.
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: It's okay. I have besties who haven't seen the Bad Blood video. I'm not saying that I don't love them but, you know, when the war comes I don't think I'm going to save them first is what I'm saying.
Ann: The bestie war?
Aminatou: When the bestie war -- the electro-wars happen we'll see.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: I know. That's a huge bummer. I'm sorry. Such a good video too.
Ann: But I mean I don't know that three-way long-distance bestiehood has to work. I feel like she can just appreciate her long-distance bestie's local bestie and be like I love her for what she brings to my friend and I don't have to be first-degree besties with her. Am I wrong?
Aminatou: I mean obviously. No, that's obviously the answer. The answer is you shouldn't be friends with someone because you have a friend in common. You should be friends with them because you have things in common and you actually like each other. I think that it's a disaster recipe to try to please your friend by being friends with this other person. There's a huge difference between you can hang with this person than actually falling into deep friend love with them.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: I don't know. I feel like I've made this mistake before and now that I know better won't do it again but it's just -- like it's not worth it. If you like this person, have things in common with them, it's obviously rad when somebody likes your friend but I don't think it should give you any kind of anxiety. I feel like I've said anxiety like 20 times today. Maybe I should check on my meds. [Laughs]
Ann: I think also . . .
Aminatou: I think it takes time.
(44:14)
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: It takes a long time and your long-distance bestie is probably a great person but I think it is preposterous for somebody to say "Hi! You and so-and-so have so much in common. Boom, be friends." That's not how it happens.
Ann: Yeah. There is a thing that happens where if you're not overly enthusiastic about being friends sometimes the friend between you is like "Were you trying? Did you give so-and-so a chance?" You also have to give your bestie the benefit of the doubt that it is cool to just let it happen between the short-distance and the long-distance bestie. Like I think no one should be trying to make anything happen.
Aminatou: Yeah, you can't have your cake and eat it too long-distance bestie. You can't do that.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Anyway, this Taylor Swift fan, you're going to be okay because you have Taylor Swift. You need to stand your ground, and you can be friendly and not feel pressured to be best friends.
Ann: Right. Right. And just appreciate her for supporting your friend locally.
Aminatou: Exactly. You're like you're the local support.
Ann: Totally.
Aminatou: And long-distance support.
Ann: Totally.
Aminatou: Ugh, these new modern friendships, it's so hard. I guarantee you there's an underlying element of social media that makes all of this really hard.
Ann: I was actually thinking I've been on group texts before with a close friend and then a friend of that friend who I barely knew and it made for a really awkward exchange where I'm like who am I texting? What is this number that's coming up?
Aminatou: Who's this phone number? [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah, exactly. I'm Googling the area code. I hate that. I need to know who I'm texting. You can't just text me and be like "Hello to my number ones," and I'm like who is the other number one? I don't even know.
Aminatou: You know how I feel about this. Context is everything.
Ann: Yes.
(46:00)
Aminatou: I hate it when people put me in situations with no context. But yeah, Taylor Swift fan, you're going to be fine. Just turn it down a little bit. It's obviously hard because you're the one that's far away but don't let anybody pressure you into being friends with anyone. Just let it happen.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Because this lady is probably awesome. You guys have friends in common but you don't need what you don't need.
Ann: Right, and I think all of us have friends who are kind of slow-burn friendships, you know? Who you met once or twice and you're like she seems cool then all of a sudden three years later you're like "Oh!" You know? Like maybe it'll happen.
Aminatou: Right, because you have to become friends on your own terms.
Ann: Exactly.
Aminatou: You can't become friends on somebody's terms. But also I will say it's a little selfish when you try to just make people fall in love all the time.
Ann: Right. For sure.
Aminatou: You've got to push them to do things together. That's what I do. It's like oh, weird, you guys are friends now. Cool. [Laughs] I'm going to watch the Bad Blood video.
Ann: Yes. Thanks to our producer/podcast witch Gina Delvac who makes us sound good.
Aminatou: [Echoing] Produced by Gina Delvac. [Laughter] You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, on iTunes where you can leave us a nice review if you feel so inclined. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com and you can find us on Twitter at @callyrgf.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: See you on the Internet, boo-boo.
[Music]