Follow Your Arrow
8/29/14 - In a special listener mailbag edition, we answer questions about starting a long-distance friendship, women who are mansplainers, a Shine Theory dilemma, work self vs. internet self, an office style conundrum, and why iPhone read receipts are terrible.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Beyoncé - Irreplaceable
QT - Hey QT
Snakehips - Days Without You ft. Sinead Harnett
Kacey Musgraves - Follow Your Arrow
Phantogram - Fall in Love
Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend
TRANSCRIPT: FOLLOW YOUR ARROW
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On the agenda this week, how to start a long-distance friendship, aww, a question from two wide-eyed 22-year-old besties, what happens when women are mansplainers, a Shine Theory dilemma, what to do when your work self and your Internet self don't match up, an office-style conundrum -- oof -- and iPhone read receipts and why they're terrible.
Aminatou: Ugh, so terrible.
Ann: I've been on vacation and I'm still in London, this is my last day in London, and Amina, you are hours -- you've just been back in San Francisco for mere hours, right?
Aminatou: Yeah, I got off a plane at 11. I also flew into a different airport than I flew out of. That's always fun when you don't know that that's going on. [Laughter]
Ann: Landed on the wrong side of the Bay?
Aminatou: Yeah. Oakland Airport, very nice. Just a little further from my house.
[Theme Song]
(1:45)
Aminatou: We have so many reader questions. I'm super excited about this.
Ann: And also can I just say, like a couple episodes deep, I'm also shocked and touched by how many long-distance besties there are out there.
Aminatou: Oh my god, there's so many long-distance besties. Like it makes me sad, you know, because I just want everybody to live together and just be able to sit on each other's couches and watch YouTube. But [Laughs] also I guess it's exciting for us, huh? But yeah, there's international besties, just like super-duper . . . yeah, it's insane.
Ann: Okay. So probably a great question to start with is one from Victoria -- listener Victoria, not reader Victoria.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Listener Victoria asks "Do you guys have advice for two wide-eyed 22-year-olds on maintaining long-distance friendships?" She's on the brink of her first long-distance bestie situation.
Aminatou: Oh man. One, you're going to be okay. [Laughs] Well you're going to be okay.
Ann: We're hugging you over the Internet. Hugging you both.
Aminatou: Yeah. Like you're going to be okay if you put in some -- you know, you've got to put some effort in. This is going to sound a little calculated, right? But I think that you kind of . . . when you have long-distance friendships you need like short-term and long-term goals. So it's how do I make my friend feel awesome/remember me? And I think that it's the same thing that you do when they're near you, right? It's like you prioritize them. You send them great little packages. Ann, you're a great package sender.
Ann: You're a great package sender!
Aminatou: Hey, thanks! Well, you know, maybe that's why it works out for us. You send A++ gifts, like every time . . .
Ann: Well we have different styles.
Aminatou: It's true but every time you pop up in my mailbox I just feel like a million dollars so that's pretty awesome.
Ann: I feel like you're better at the random sent from the Internet gift where I think I bought something drunk then I realize it's from you, like the time you sent me a trash can.
Aminatou: [Laughs] It was a very nice trash can.
Ann: Simple human, y'all. They're everywhere. [Laughs]
(3:50)
Aminatou: I know. Also not to pat myself on the back but it was one of those pro-boyfriend moves where it was like oh, Ann has been talking about this for a long time and I noticed on my last trip that maybe she needed one, you know?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: I have the disposal income of like a nine-year-old with a rich dad so I can afford to buy you simple human.
Ann: [Laughs] It's true, and I feel like I'm much more of a mom sending you a care package while you're away at camp. Like I'm like here are a bunch of little things I collected together and put in a box for you and decorated with vintage wallpaper and mailed to you. [Laughs] Very different.
Aminatou: But one time you sent me -- like I needed one of those care packages. I was dying of, I don't know, swine flu or something and I got a package from you. It took all my energy to get to the door to get it, but when it came I ate all those snacks. I was like I'm done with antibiotics. I'm like snacking now.
Ann: Oh yeah, that's when you had your iron deficiency and I went to Whole Foods and bought all the iron-heavy snacks. Turns out many are gluten-free. That was not cheap.
Aminatou: Yeah! Also you bought me meat. The beef jerky was delicious.
Ann: I was actually embarrassed. I was like, when the meat went through the checkout, I was like ugh, oh my god, will they know? It was like buying something illicit.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Bought so much jerky.
Aminatou: I know you love me. Anyway, Victoria, you're going to be just fine.
Ann: The other thing that is different, I think you have to be very diligent about not getting jealous of new IRL friends, understanding that you want your friend to have an awesome in-person support group and social network and you are irreplaceable and try not to sort of see it as a new life versus old life or new friends versus me kind of thing as opposed to everyone's friendship network is expanding.
Aminatou: Aww! You know, that's so true about the jealousy thing. I kind of . . . I hadn't really thought about that, but whenever I see that you have new friends I guess online I'm always like hmm, those are potentially my friends too so I get excited that the web just gets bigger.
(5:58)
Ann: Yeah, and let's be real, not just potentially but practically. I think every friend I've made in L.A. has become your friend too pretty much.
Aminatou: Hallelujah!
Ann: I know. I can't wait for my San Francisco base to expand now that you're there.
Aminatou: Uh, I'm working on it so hard Ann. Don't even worry.
Ann: Building the NorCal network.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yes, I'm building our -- I'm building the NorCal tech corridor for us.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Don't worry, working on it really hard. I'm going to make you lady friends who make robots and shit. It's going to be great.
Ann: Yes.
[Music]
Ann: The next question is -- maybe you want to read this one about . . . it's the first one I sent you on that email from James.
Aminatou: Oh, great. So listener James, not reader James -- we'll get used to that one day -- "My best friend is amazing. She's one of the most bad-ass people I know, but I think she might be a mansplainer. Can women be mansplainers? For example I will be hanging out with her and friends who are also queer/trans/women/feminists." Ugh, you have the best friends, James. "And someone might mention some shitty misogynist thing that some man we know did, and she almost always takes on this weird devil's advocate role and tries to justify why they did it/why they are a jerk. What's up with this? I've tried to call her out on it but then more mansplaining happens. Help! I feel like this is the perfect place to discuss women who denounce feminism."
(8:10)
Ann: That was my note to Amina in the email.
Aminatou: Can you tell I just got off a plane? I can't read.
Ann: [Laughs] You are tired.
Aminatou: I don't think women can be mansplainers just by the . . . what the word looks like.
Ann: But women can be assholes.
Aminatou: I hate argumentative friends. This is one thing I will say, people who are compelled to be what's the word? Yes, argumentative or play devil's advocate, in my life those people tend to be libertarians where they're always like "Hmm, let me tell you about this different perspective that I have." And I was like no, no, I thought about that too. It just sounds like you're a jerk.
Ann: D.C. problems. That's a D.C. problem.
Aminatou: I know, right? Yes, D.C. political scene problems where it's like no, that's not an original idea; you don't have a heart.
Ann: Oof.
Aminatou: Wow, now I've just rallied all the libertarian base against me. It's okay. I'll work on this.
Ann: We'll read some of the hate mail next episode.
Aminatou: What do you think, Ann?
Ann: I don't know. I definitely think there is a certain type of woman who -- like the woman in question -- who sort of feels the need to say "Look, I agree with you in principle. I'm totally a feminist. I'm totally a queer ally or whatever. But just like, I don't know, think of the men. But I'm a kinder, gentler type."
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: A part of me sympathizes with that. It's like yeah . . .
Aminatou: No . . .
Ann: Amina, stop, let me finish. [Laughter] I was just about to say not . . .
Aminatou: Oh my god, you just Kanye Wested me. What?
Ann: Oh my god. You're not going to let me finish but not all straight men are the enemy and I think that sometimes this attitude comes up as a way of driving home that point to people who probably already understand it. How does James put it here? Some shitty, misogynist thing that some man we know did. It's like, you know, people who are not terrible people do shitty, misogynist things sometimes, right? And so it's like there is a certain personality type that always wants to point out not all men are terrible or not all straight people are terrible. And it's like yeah, we get it. We know. Sometimes it's more pernicious than that, especially in, I don't know, more mainstream places like at work or something. I feel like it's much more of a cover your ass type of thing, like "Oh yeah, I'm a feminist but I'm not a scary feminist. Like I actually . . ."
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(10:40)
Ann: "You know, I'm not going to call anyone out on anything," which is super, super annoying. But I think that your original read on this was kind of right, just that there are some people who even among friends just love to argue. You know, the fact that he brings up almost always takes this weird devil's advocate role is like hmm, you know, if you're the one who's always like "But think of the men" here in a space where we're talking about one specific man, not all terrible men, maybe you need to look at your life, look at your choices.
Aminatou: Obviously we need more information about this specific person but I think that in general it comes from this place of also you kind of want to show you're intellectually more superior to people.
Ann: Ugh, yeah.
Aminatou: You know, like you're not prone to group think. Here are all your amazing queer/trans/women/feminist friends. They all believe the same thing, like god forbid you would believe the same thing as them.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And I think that that's really hard when you're friends with somebody. So I usually have two ways of tackling this. If the person is really genuinely very important to me, you know, if they were like a tier one . . .
Ann: Inner circle?
Aminatou: Call from jail kind of friend, then I would have a real talk because at the end of the day it's not about the actual argument, right? It's about the fact that they're always argumentative. And I think that that's what the pattern is. It's not actually what you talk about. Because god forbid mansplaining tear apart your relationship, like I would hope that that would never happen. But also sometimes, you know, you just look at people and you can't change them and the only way you can change is how you react to it and you have to make a really conscious decision not to be annoyed by other people for the sake of keeping the peace and, you know, just being cohesive in your friend group. And I think that's also okay.
Ann: Tough one though.
(12:35)
Aminatou: Tough one. Stay strong, James. Stay strong.
Ann: [Laughs]
[Music]
Aminatou: Let's answer Jodie's question. "I sleep, eat, and live the Shine Theory but I'm having a slight conundrum." No!
Ann: P.S. I love the idea that you can eat Shine Theory. Does that mean like sharing your croissants? Sorry, [Accented] croissant? [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh my god, ann, you're saying it so wrong. It's so offensive to me when people say [Accented] croissant. Like no.
Ann: I mean that was done deliberately to provoke you, but anyway, eating Shine Theory.
Aminatou: I love that you know where all my buttons are. "There's a lady who lives in my city, runs in the same circles as I do, and does similar work. We had a brief online friendship but right before she became successful I found out some things about her and her integrity that made me want to distance myself from her. She definitely lied about some things that her work is focused on and has straight-up plagiarized some things so I distanced myself but people keep trying to introduce us or assume we don't know each other and should. It's awkward and I don't know how to handle it. How can I handle this as graceful as all hell? I've already tried asking myself what Beyonce would do." [Laughs] I feel like Beyonce would probably call her out and throw her off a bridge so maybe we're not going to do the Beyonce thing?
Ann: Yeah, I mean . . .
(14:15)
Aminatou: Man, our listeners have tough questions.
Ann: You know, it doesn't matter how many times someone tries to introduce you. You can just say "Oh yeah, we met. Thanks so much for making the intro but we actually already know each other." You know, which is the truth.
Aminatou: 100% agree with your take on that.
Ann: That's it. Like maybe you have to answer that question 25 times, fine, so be it. I actually think given the tone of the question that you don't feel compelled to call her out or make a big public show of it which is totally fine to sort of keep whatever information you have that makes you not want to be her bestie, keep that to yourself, and just sort of politely decline every time someone wants to put the two of you together. Again given the tone of the email I'm sure you're on perfectly fine terms, like you are good acquaintances. If you bumped into her somewhere you could make small talk and whatever. I don't know. I feel like the lesson about friendships, we're always telling people how to take it to the next level and get to know people better but the point is if you don't work at it it'll just stay at this acquaintance level of status. You know, it's like you won't actually get to know her any better or be any closer. So I think the point is do nothing and sort of politely lie when people ask you.
[Music and Ads]
(17:25)
Ann: Alicia asks, let's see, "I've become somewhat known for my writing and distinct point-of-view online." Go girl, awesome. "However I have found that keeping a personal blog in which I discuss workplace dynamics, the good, the bad, and the ugly from my own experience, has only caught my employer's attention in a bad way. I've been approached multiple times throughout my career to edit or delete a post because an employer doesn't feel comfortable for what was discussed. Luckily I've never been fired for writing a post but it feels like a constant tug-of-war of wanting to be transparent about the issues I'm facing while also keeping a job I do like but may have struggles with. Long story short, how do I maintain my personal blog with integrity without losing my job?"
Aminatou: Oof. Uh, you know this was my struggle for a long time. Oof.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: I mean it kind of still is my struggle. Ooh. It sounds to me like Alicia probably also works in PR/marketing/communications because I feel like these sorts of issues always pop up in those industries where I also had a job where I kind of caught my employer's attention because I was -- you know, like I was doing a blog that was kind of weirdly locally successful and just had a reputation of being good on the Internet. But as soon as you cross over to that corporate place then they want you to use that for them and not for yourself anymore.
Ann: Right, they want to kill your shine.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, right? They want to kill your shine. But, you know, I think at the same time there is -- and I think that a lot of people will not agree with me on this -- but I do think that it's really important to be conscious of your external Internet output, like depending on where you work from, because whether you want it or not it . . . it's not that it reflects on your employer but when shit hits the fan it's like all of the ammo that people will use to kind of destroy you. And so it's something that you should always be conscious about.
Ann: Right. What ammo have you supplied other people with?
Aminatou: I never talk about my blog or my Twitter or whatever at work because I was so paranoid that my coworkers would find out and see it and, you know, then there's also the truth of sometimes I did that stuff at work, you know? It's like hi, I put up this very LOLio blog post but that was definitely 30 minutes of my employer's time. And I think that it's fair for your work to be like hey, when you're on our time you're on our time and when you're not on our time you can do what you want up to a limit, you know? It sucks but welcome to at-will employment.
(20:05)
Ann: Some employers make you sign something that says -- especially in a lot of creative agency environments -- will make you sign something that says everything you create even if it's not during work hours during the time you're employed here is the intellectual property of your employer. Like some places actually make you sign that.
Aminatou: Well not some places; I would say most places, and not even creative places make you sign that. But it's okay, I talked to my lawyer about it. It's serious but it's not that serious.
Ann: I was given one of those once and I just put it in a drawer and was like I'll bring it next week and I said that for like ten weeks.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that that makes sense at a tech company. But, you know, when I was working at my PR agency you're not going to take my amazing blog inventions away from me. I think the way you kind of navigate this is you need to have a come to Jesus with yourself about what it is that you actually want to do and come up with a plan to do that, right? It's like if you want to be somebody who's more externally-facing or whatever you need to, during the interview process when you're going to these places, you need to be able to ask that and feel good about it. Don't hide who you are because at the end of the day also it'll create this double identity for you at work that is really hard to shake.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And just create -- it's like a constant, you know, I love what she says about the constant tug-of-war of wanting to be transparent and keeping a job, you know? But you struggle a lot. And I think that it happens to a lot of us and as . . . I think as you kind of progress in your career you find better ways to do that. But I think eventually you have to be really honest with yourself, right? It's like what's more important to you? Is it this job and this paycheck and what all that does for you? Or do you want to be more creative? Do you want to be more externally-facing? And I think that you need to be able to ask your employer that and say it to them in a way that's not threatening.
(22:05)
Ann: Yeah, and I can see why there would also be legal concerns if you were writing about workplace dynamics under your real name and it'd be really easy to find out where you work. You know, it's hard because I think there should be great blogs about workplace dynamics that are rooted in real workplaces that aren't newsrooms written by people who had experience there, but it is true from an employer perspective it does not make much sense to let that happen. So yeah, good call. Do some soul searching and . . .
Aminatou: Yeah, you know, do some soul searching. I'm not saying quit your job tomorrow but, you know, make the job that you want and figure out a different way to get there because I think what you do is good and it's important and clearly you've gotten recognized for it so here at Call Your Girlfriend we're all about monetizing your passion projects and turning your hustle into real work.
Ann: Turning your friendships into your hustle. We're just all over the place.
Aminatou: Yeah, turning your friendships into your hustle. No, it's true. I think that's how you get to work that's meaningful and good and want to get out of bed for. God, I've worked in so many offices and just done ugh kind of work and this is like the first time in a long time where I feel like I am fully myself at work, like I am 100% myself, and I can't tell you how liberating it is.
Ann: Ugh, that's awesome. Yeah, and I was actually going to say that as well that if your work is getting enough attention to sort of attract some side-eye from your employer then maybe that attention is enough for you to turn into at least a part-time job that you can do in conjunction with something else. Like that is a great thing. The fact that your employer notices means that lots of other people will too.
[Music]
(24:18)
Aminatou: Next question, Ann! Hit me!
Ann: All right, Daniel asks "A few episodes ago you mentioned Ann Taylor type clothing as being boring." [Laughs] Don't remember that but plausible. "So what brands do you like or what people inspire you for work-related fashion?" Speaking of monetizing our side hustle. Wow, great opportunity here. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I am wearing an Eileen Fisher twin set right now so . . . [Laughs]
Ann: I am wearing Uniqlo leggings and a very old t-shirt that says happiness is big bucks with deer on it.
Aminatou: Oh man, you know, that's the one thing that I've always wanted to rob you of. You let me borrow that t-shirt for a weekend one time and it almost didn't come back.
Ann: It's my oldest, softest t-shirt and it's just about to die. So I don't really know if I'm the biggest poster child for work wear but you and your Eileen Fisher over there, mom chic.
Aminatou: Here's the thing with Ann Taylor type clothing: I don't think that Ann Taylor is generally boring. I think that people wear it to, depending on where you live, we lived in D.C. for a long time, Eileen Fisher is like the uniform of ladies who just want to blend and and don't create problems. You know what I mean? It's like I look like I took a shower today. I am smart. I'm not going to cause you any problems with how I dress or what I say at this job. But I don't think that it's inherently boring. One of my favorite sweaters is from Ann Taylor and whenever I tell people they like don't believe me. [Laughs] So, you know, it's all about creating your own color story. So what brands do you like? What people inspire you? I don't know. We're both big thrifters so I don't know if we're good for talking brands, brands, brands. When I feel like I need to be put together in a conservative office environment I like to check out Zara. H&M Studio makes some good work clothes as well. Yeah, but that's me because I'm -- you know, I'm Euro to the core, man.
(26:25)
Ann: I haven't had to wear business casual since my very first job out of school.
Aminatou: Biz cash.
Ann: I mean -- I mean for real. And when I was actually a boss I wore jeans, ankle boots, silky blouse, statement jewelry every day. That was my uniform.
Aminatou: That's what I wear every day right now.
Ann: Yeah, that's sort of like the tech media uniform.
Aminatou: Can I tell you that I was in a fake sorority in college? And, well, it was a service group.
Ann: It was a real sorority, be honest.
Aminatou: I mean it's not a sorority. We didn't have a house. Also we didn't have sorority-type things. We were just really smart girls who liked community service and didn't know how to talk to boys so we did this thing. Anyway the dress code for Texas Spirits -- what's up Texas Spirits -- was snappy casual.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And I will say that to this day it's all I can think of when someone says business casual. I'm like no, you want to be snappy casual.
Ann: Describe snappy casual. Like what is the snappy casual outfit?
Aminatou: I would say J. Crew is like the embodiment of snappy casual.
Ann: J. Crew really branching out this season though. I was in a J. Crew earlier this summer and there was a rack of neoprene and I was like wow, Jana Lions means '90s club. Like seriously.
Aminatou: Neoprene is having a really big moment this year.
Ann: Huge moment.
(27:52)
Aminatou: I was at a wedding this weekend which is why I was out of town and I was wearing a fabulous neoprene ensemble. I was very happy with myself. I was like anybody lights a match near me and I'm gone but otherwise this is comfortable as fuck.
Ann: You would melt. You wouldn't burst into flame; you would just melt slowly.
Aminatou: Ann, I don't know science. All I know is that fire near neoprene is not good.
Ann: Wait, but back to this workplace question because I was having a conversation this weekend with a woman who is like a low-level associate at a law firm and I was complimenting her on her nails which I believe you'd call them party nails, like gold glitter, fantastic.
Aminatou: Party party!
Ann: Party party. And then the next day they were definitely partied too hard nails.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Ann, you're just cutting me deep because you know how my nails always look a mess.
Ann: I mean your nails have always partied really hard. I think it's actually a compliment. Anyway, so she was saying how she had to take it off before she went into work next week because she only wears nude and whatever in her law firm because she feels like she's seen as sort of a frivolous college girl even though she's in her late 20s. And she mentioned there's this older woman in the firm who's always wearing neon nails and is a little bit more adventurous fashion-wise and I was like I feel like she's your cover. It's almost a responsibility of women who are in positions of more authority and power in a weird way to be a little bit more adventurous if they want to be and sort of expand the definition of what is acceptable in environments like that.
Aminatou: Oh, weird. How serendipitous. So as you were talking our good friend Shawnee Hilton just sent me an email about a chat that I did with her and a couple of lovely ladies at BuzzFeed literally titled "How Are Women Supposed to Dress For Work?"
Ann: And?
(29:50)
Aminatou: I think it's also important to, depending on where you work, is to take cues from other people where you work because at the end of the day you just want to be comfortable in your own skin, right? Don't wear anything that you don't feel amazing and comfortable in. Like just don't do that. And, you know, but also follow your own arrow.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Out here giving country music lyric style advice. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Follow your arrow.
Ann: I didn't even understand that was a country reference.
[Music]
Ann: Did we answer that sufficiently? I don't even know.
Aminatou: Yeah, so basically go to Zara, go to J. Crew. You know, whatever your budget can afford, look comfortable, look fabulous. I also do the thing whatever woman is above me in the org chart or whose job I want, I try to dress slightly better than her.
Ann: Wow Amina. That's not very Shiny. [Laughs]
Aminatou: No, it's not about competition; it's about making me feel better. Are you kidding?
Ann: Yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: Like it's not . . . those women don't ever notice you, right? I just want to be like I am dressed for success. I am prepped for success. I'm going to get there.
Ann: And here the advice I was about to give was scarves. You know, I've always loved scarves. [Laughter]
(32:06)
Aminatou: Okay, ooh, Queeny asks -- Queeny, good.
Ann: Queeny? Real name. Amazing name.
Aminatou: Ugh, Queeny, great name. Ugh, love you. Love it. "Can you guys please talk about . . ." Uh, this word. I want to cut here and say that first of all they're not called read (reed) receipts; they're called read (red) receipts.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Does the entire Internet agree with me? They're read (red) receipts. Yes?
Ann: Yeah, so just read it as read (red) receipts.
Aminatou: Okay. "Can you guys please talk about read receipts? I am pro- read receipts but I'm also slightly OCD. More and more people are making a big deal about read receipts and how it can be manipulative in a relationship and friendship." I think read receipts are weird. My whole point in not responding to people's text messages is either I haven't seen them, or two, I just don't have the emotional capacity to deal with them right now so I'm just not a core audience of turning on my read receipts. But when I see that someone else has it usually just makes me laugh. It's like okay, you've read my text and you're not acknowledging me and that's not . . . I mean that's okay in many, many, many instances, right? It's like if it's a friend maybe she's busy. If it's a potential romantic interest it obviously means I am not a priority and that is good to know as well. But yeah, personally I think everybody should turn them off. Like people who turn them on clearly want to communicate with you that they're -- you know, they're like I see you and I've received you but I can't take like ten seconds to acknowledge that so that's weird.
(33:42)
Ann: Yeah, I mean I don't really understand why. Like I don't think there's any . . . I mean she says like "I'm slightly OCD so I'm pro- read receipts" but I don't really know what that means. Is that because you're worried?
Aminatou: Ann, OCD people don't have to justify themselves to you. My OCD manifests in . . .
Ann: In read receipts?
Aminatou: No, I delete text messages if I feel like the blue/grey ratio is too crazy.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Yeah. Listen, I don't have to explain myself to you. It's a sickness, okay?
Ann: You don't, but that's a thing that doesn't affect anyone else. That just happens on your phone. That's your own business. That's the digital equivalent of behind closed doors.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Read receipts are like coming for other people.
Aminatou: Yeah, I think people just don't understand the point of them. I think in a business context they totally make sense, right? It's like hey, I have read -- like your message has been received and read and I'll get back to you. In social settings I'm like I don't know why we do this to ourselves.
Ann: Well the thing is everybody knows that sometimes people get texts and are like I'll respond to that later. Like you said I don't have the emotional capacity to deal with this or I'm busy or . . . I don't know. I'm someone who will ignore my phone for great stretches of time and then pick it up and respond to six text messages in a row and other times I'll be in a mood and I'll reply to everything right away. Like there's not . . . I don't know, and I don't like this idea that the read receipt makes explicit something that we all understand anyway which is that sometimes people take a while to get back to you over text message.
Aminatou: Yeah, but do you realize that people don't accept that as truth? Like I take forever to get back to email. I'll take forever to get back to texts because I'm on my own schedule and I don't care. But god, I think it was in Tech Crunch, there was this like Tech Crunch article about read receipts a while back and it said something like read receipts don't leave much room for a comforting imagination. And it's like what are you talking about?
(35:50)
And I think that that's the point. It's like when . . . like if you're into a dude or something and he doesn't text you right away everybody's like "Oh my god, what if he's dead? What if a truck hit him?" And I'm like no, what if he's like busy right now or maybe he just doesn't want to text you back? That's fine.
Ann: Right. Like I'm of the point-of-view that unless you're a core, core person any communication is like respond -- I respond at my own pleasure and leisure, you know?
Aminatou: 100. But again it takes a really secure not-crazy person which that's -- you know, there's like you and me and 17 other people to be okay with that.
Ann: But what if . . .
Aminatou: You know, I've been really bad at email for the last year and I think that part of it is that I want to train people to know that they're . . . like I don't have to respond to you immediately. I have shit going on and sometimes it takes a lot of effort even to text somebody back.
Ann: Maybe this is the conversation we should be having, like instead of directing it at read receipts we can actually just say look, not everyone is compelled to reply to everyone immediately and that's okay and the campaign should just be at your pleasure. At your leisure.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's honestly my biggest qualm with Apple messaging products is the read receipt feature and it's the fact that people can see when you're texting. Like I think that is really manipulative.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Because sometimes I'll start texting and then I get distracted watching Bob's Burgers or something and I can't get back to you.
Ann: And your text is just uh . . . [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, or my fat finger got caught on the keyboard and no, I'm in fact not responding to you; I just have fat fingers. What are you going to do?
(37:45)
Ann: Right. I'm really glad that Queeny didn't ask us to come to any conclusion other than just talk about read receipts. I really appreciate that.
Aminatou: I know. Queeny, you're great. Your OCD is fine.
Ann: Turn off your read receipts.
Aminatou: Turn off your read receipts. Turn them off, and when you're friends with people who have read receipts tell them they're crazy.
Ann: Ugh. Well I think that's the end of our questions.
Aminatou: So this was really, really fun. Maybe let's stop reading the Internet and just respond to questions all the time.
Ann: Only read our inboxes for the . . .
Aminatou: Yeah. Also I feel like I'm bad at responding to questions. I'm just like follow your arrow. Follow your arrow.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
[Music]
Ann: Let's see, thanks for listening even when we haven't read the Internet. You can subscribe to Call Your Girlfriend on iTunes, just search for Call Your Girlfriend. We pick questions from our email which our email address you can also find at callyourgirlfriend.com and you can tweet them to us as well at Call Your Girlfriend, that's @callyrgf. And see you on the Internet.
Aminatou: See you on the Internet boo.