Cooking and Eating with Friends
4/23/21 - Home cook and author Julia Turshen joins us to discuss pandemic cooking fatigue, why the stories behind recipes matter, and how she learned to love cooking and eating. Her latest cookbook is Simply Julia: 110 Easy Recipes for Healthy Comfort Food.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Simply Julia: 110 Easy Recipes for Healthy Comfort Food / Get a signed copy from Oblong Books
Julia’s go to cookbook: Snacking Cakes
Keep Calm and Cook On podcast
TRANSCRIPT: COOKING AND EATING WITH FRIENDS
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hey Ann Friedman.
Ann: Hey, Aminatou Sow.
Aminatou: Como se va?
Ann: You know…
Aminatou: [laughter] A whole pandemic and you haven't even learned how to respond to me. [laughter] This friendship is over, I'm hanging up now. I have finally reached the end of my rope. [laughter]
Ann: I had grand plans that I was going to like record like a, like me trying to pronounce something, like a more ambitious phrase that I could just play, like a, like a Home Alone talk boy moment when you ask me that question, so I’d be fully prepared. [laughter] And like, like, like many things during this pandemic, it fell to the bottom and then off the to do list entirely. So...
Aminatou: Oh, man.
Ann: Sorry to continue to disappoint you, but at least I'm consistent.
Aminatou: It's the, it's the Heart of Darkness of this relationship is your refusal to learn basic French phrases. This is what will undo us.
Ann: [laughter] I love that. I love that. Like, you know, like, like we have written about all kinds of very serious things affecting this print friendship. But I love the idea that like if we ever do break up someday this receipt will be hanging out there. That's like listen, it was Ann’s refusal to speak basic conversational French that really did.
[laughter]
Aminatou: It's this. It's like it's not whenever people are like telling me about jealousy, or tell me about this. It's no, no, no. It's like, Your Honor, she refused to learn how to say I'm doing well in French.
Ann: Where is the Elena Ferrante novel about that?
Aminatou: Oh, my gosh. And you know, another… thank god this show is weekly, you will have other chances to redeem yourself.
Ann: Well let me tell you, we have a great episode today. I'm so excited about our guest.
Aminatou: Ooh tell me.
Ann: I talked to the delightful Julia Turshen who has written some truly fantastic cookbooks and is one of my favorite thinkers on the subject of food and making food and enjoying food and just being like a critical values led human who likes to cook and eat.
Aminatou: Let me tell you the Greek chicken recipe from, I know that you don't really mess with chicken and truthfully like I also do not really mess with chicken, but this recipe is, it's so good. It's so good and three different friends like sent it to me. And so I finally dabbled in and I, like I cannot say enough for someone who makes me like a food that I'm not like super fond of.
Ann: Oh, that is really high praise, when it's like normally I hate this thing but this recipe has like sold me, won me over. Julia Turshen, if you're not familiar with her work, has written several beloved best selling cookbooks and co-authored some as well. Her latest is called Simply Julia: 110 Easy Recipes for Healthy Comfort Food. Is that the one that the chicken recipe is in?
Aminatou: Yes it is.
Ann: Oh my god, I love that. And Julia also hosts a podcast called Keep Calm and Cook On so you can, you can get her in your ears as well as in your recipes.
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Ann: Yeah, we talked about a lot of things but I feel like um, you know, I need to warn everyone that I was working out a lot of my pandemic cooking for with her in this interview, so we'll see it might end up sounding like a personal food therapy session that I got to have with her.
Aminatou: [laughter]
Ann: Who knows.
Aminatou: It's so funny that you say that, I was complaining with a friend yesterday on the phone about just like having reached the end of my rope of just like performing adulthood in the pandemic. And at one point like both of us are just like screaming on the phone about how we've just like had it with feeding ourselves. And just like, is this all life is three times a day you have to figure this out and then we should do it again and it tastes different? And I was like, Okay, this is when you know that you're losing the plot, relax, calm down, and then come back.
Ann: 100% I feel like for me, it spilled over into not even being excited about ordering in, which I probably do like once a week. I'm not like, ooh, like it's a treat. What will I have someone else cook for me tonight, like, like, that was sort of my mode like at another point in the pandemic. By now, I'm like, none of this sounds interesting, either, like how are we just burnt out on, on basic body life maintenance? Like it's true.
Aminatou: It's just like decision making, but it's also a kind of like being alive monotony that I was fully not clocked into. [laughter] Until life came to a standstill, and you're like, oh, is this what we do all the time? And then as you know, for non COVID related reasons, I also don't have taste buds.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And so it's been, that has been its own adventure. Maybe we'll do a separate episode on that one day.
Ann: Food textures extravaganza.
Aminatou: Yes, it has nothing to do with COVID, but in the time of COVID, not being able to taste food has been quite a roller coaster. And it's, so that also has me like in my feelings. But anyway, I'm very excited to hear this interview.
[Interview begins]
Ann: Julia, welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Julia: Thank you so much. I am a longtime listener, first time caller, I'm so happy to talk to you.
Ann: I want to warn you in advance that this might turn into a kind of like, personal cooking and food therapy session because I feel like I have lots of feelings about making things to eat right now. And that's kind of where I want to start because you know, I think of you as someone who really sits at this nexus of food and community. Like a lot of your work really, really puts at the foreground, the fact that like food is something we do with people we care about, and with people we're invested in. It is more than just like, what is on the plate or like the nutrients we're putting in our bodies. And I couldn't agree more. And also, I have just spent the past year cooking and eating like just myself and my partner and this kind of broader community aspect is gone. And it has really changed the amount of pleasure I derive from both cooking and eating. And so I guess I just kind of want to start there and get your find out how you're feeling in this pandemic as, as like, you know, the community element has been removed from food.
Julia: I totally understand that. At this moment today, I don't think I'm feeling that. But I have felt that many days, over the last year and over my life, honestly, because I've cooked for my entire life. But I definitely hear what you're saying and I know 1000% that you're not alone. I hear this from so many other people and I know exactly what it feels like.
Ann: And I guess you can't really give me advice on like surviving a pandemic. [laughter] I understand about this, but um, I don't know, I would love to hear I mean, do you kind of experience those things differently? You know, you write a lot in this new cookbook about like the meals you make for and with your wife and about, like, you know, all these beautiful kind of small rituals and ways that food fits into your life together. But also, like I said, you were very quick to say like, this is a good dish to make for a friend or like this is, you know, the kind of thing we make when we are like working in this volunteer kitchen. And so I'm wondering if those are different modes for you?
Julia: Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting because something I think about a lot is like how often I peel and chop onions. You know, this is something I do often, but I do it for so many different reasons. You know, sometimes I'm doing it because I am putting my kind of like nerdy, kind of slightly sciencey hat on and I am writing and testing a recipe and I'm figuring out those measurements for those instructions. Sometimes I chopped that onion because I am just making a quick meal for me and my wife that honestly I can't remember what I made and it was just something we ate and it was good enough, which is fine, you know. And sometimes I do it because I'm cooking for my community and we're doing volunteer work. Sometimes, you know in the before times and hopefully soon, it's because I'm making you know dinner for our family that's coming over or friends or whatever. So it's the same thing, right? But the feeling of it changes depending on what the purpose is. So I don't know, in terms of the kind of pandemic burnout of cooking, and just day to day kind of getting by which, you know, for so many people involves cooking. I mean, that's a real thing. And I just feel a lot of empathy for my fellow home cooks and so much about this book is about, I think, that empathy and about just really acknowledging the labor that is daily home cooking…because it's so much work. And it's not just peeling and chopping the onion, it's also shopping for the onion, it's figuring out, are there other onions in the house that I forgot about? You know, it's keeping this inventory, this constant inventory, it's a lot of cleaning up, it's a lot of considering who you're cooking for? And do they like onions, you know, all of that. And this is all just like a ton of mental and physical and like emotional labor. And, you know, I'm someone who's gotten to do this for a long time, and I get a lot of credit for it, you know... but many, many more people do this all the time without getting any credit, or any acknowledgement of how much work it is. And so I feel like that's a big part of what this book is, just acknowledging it. And it's also written for other daily home cooks like myself, which is to say, it's about like, the marathon, not the sprint. Because sometimes, even if we love to cook more than anything, even if you're like me, and you've made, you know, this career of writing about it, like, yeah, I often don't feel like cooking. And that's okay. Like, that's totally okay.
Ann: I, you're, you're making me think of this essay in the book that I loved, on singing and why recipes matter. Because I have this real, like, you know, binary, I think in my mind. That there are two types of cooks, there are freestylers and then there are recipe people. And those are like two different types and I'm a freestyler. It's why I don't like to bake as much I like to just, like, interpret things my own way. I never follow a recipe. And part of that is like, some like growing up strict-Catholic damage. Like I just like to rebel in every tiny way. But I also think that like, there is something in there that is like, I don't know, like this is just different approaches to the kitchen. And this essay, which I would love to hear you talk more about, really helped me reframe and get beyond that binary of like, I'm a freestyle versus I'm, I'm a recipe person.
Julia: Sure. Yeah, my mom describes this binary as like, you're either a classical musician, or you're a jazz musician. [laughter] Like you either, like, study the thing and try to get it like perfect, or you like riff on it, but they're both wonderful, right? I don't know. Anyway, it’s her thing not mine. [laughter] I'm so I'm so glad you brought up this essay because this was just such a funny experience. But it was a real like lightbulb moment for me. So basically, I am very much like you, I am the jazz musician. I am someone who loves to just throw a meal together, whatever's in my kitchen, I'm not measuring anything. I'm not wearing shoes, you know, I've got like music on. Like, it's the most relaxed part of my day, like the kitchen is where I feel the least anxious, like the most confident, which is not true, basically, in any other area of my life. And, you know, I trust myself in my kitchen, it's not that I think everything I cook is going to be so great, I just trust that I can figure it out... So that is the feeling I have like on a day to day basis in my kitchen. That said, I write recipes for a living. So even though I don't follow them...you know, I write them. And I take a lot of pleasure in writing, like really clear instructions, very descriptive instructions, I take a lot of pleasure in figuring out the ingredients. And even, like tiny details about like the way I provide measurements, like I want it to match what's on, you know, the package of sour cream, so you're not like at the store and being like wait, how much does a cup you know, that kind of thing. So all these little details that I get so into. So basically, I've never known how to reconcile, like these two parts of myself. The part that's like the super intuitive cook, and also the part of myself that very happily writes recipes. So the one time I really figured this out and was able to kind of mesh these two parts of myself was when I went to the singing workshop, which might not make any sense. But basically the reason I went was, just a sidebar story is because even though I am not a shy person, like I'm happy to talk to anyone like I can have a conversation with like a doorknob, like mine, but I'm not loud. You know, that's part of why I love podcasting because like I get to speak into a microphone, you can adjust the audio level, like I probably sound louder now than I actually am. And after a lot of like therapy and conversations with my wife about this I was like, I think I need to like be a little less afraid of just not using my voice but just like raising it... So I did something that terrified me and I went to this singing workshop. It was at this, like really funny like retreat center in Massachusetts. I drove there from my house. And I spent a weekend singing with this group of women. And I was the youngest by like a significant amount. And we had all come to this for very different reasons, and different levels of experience to I should say, and we spent the whole weekend just singing and our instructor who basically is like the jazz musician, right? Like, she just knows all these songs, she knows them intuitively. And she would sing them. And then we would listen and sing them back. So you know, call and response. So there was never anything written down. We didn't have a worksheet or notebooks or anything. We're just singing. And I had so much fun, even though I was like, so terrified. I got home at the end of the weekend, like Sunday afternoon, I opened the door and Grace is like how was it, I was like, it was amazing, like, it was so fun, it was hysterical. And then she was like, great, like, sing me a song. And I was like, yeah, can't remember a single one. And she was like, what do you mean? Like, this wasn't like days later, or like a month later, like, this was, I had been singing that morning, like, I just got home. And I realized I just couldn't remember anything. And it just hit me. I was like, oh, this is why I write recipes and this is why recipes matter. Because, you know, Ann, you and I, you could be in my kitchen right now, which would be delightful. You know, I could show you how to make something I love to make, I could give you a taste of it, I could take you through every step of it, you know, you could be completely present for this exchange. And then you might go home and maybe someone asks you like, hey, can you make the thing Julia made, and if you don't have a recipe in front of you, it might be hard to recreate that moment...And it just hit me that this is the purpose of writing this stuff down, it's so that we can recreate the super present moment that we can recreate this ability to be intuitive and flexible and fun. And, you know, not attached to the piece of paper. But the piece of paper kind of helps you get there, like, you know, you get to be that state that the singing teacher is where you just know it. But you don't just, you know, come out just knowing it.
Ann: It's interesting reading, reading your book as well has, has really made me think a lot about just cooking as an iterative art form. I mean, you're very good at saying, you know, like, look, this recipe came from this restaurant or from this other cookbook, or from this person in my life. And here is, here's how it's the same from what I ate in their kitchen, or what I originally learned. And here's how I've adapted it for you. And there is this, almost like show your work citation process that you use. And I think that everyone is aware that like, rarely is a recipe like whole cloth invented. Like I mean, I can't imagine that, like anything is like leaping fully formed with no influences at all. But it does also feel like a like kind of a new thing or like a special thing about your cookbook that you are directly acknowledging this lineage of all the recipes. It feels a little bit like some of what I like about reading recipe blogs as well, you know, there's a lot of kind of dismissive jokes about scrolling through the essay top portion to get to the recipe. But some of that I think, is important citation work. And so, I would love to hear your thoughts about that, about the responsibility of a recipe author, a cookbook author to explain the lineage.
Julia: I really appreciate you bringing this up, because that is something that's like, so important to me. And, you know, I definitely think it's the responsibility of us cookbook authors. But I also think it's our joy, or at least it is for me, you know. Because I feel like the only thing I feel any sense of authority over is being able to write recipes that are really easy to follow. That really like have your back. But in terms of any specific type of food, I'm not an authority. I think of anything, you know, I consider myself a storyteller. And I am just so grateful to be able to author cookbooks where I get to share all the stories I get to tell you about the people who inspired you know, whatever the dish might be, because to me, that's the joy of food. It's what you were talking about earlier about how much we're missing that right now, you know, like cooking with other people being cooked for by other people. I missed that so much. And I think that that is definitely kind of like a revelation of the past year, you know, that has felt like way longer than a year is that sort of connective tissue that we're all just missing so much. And for me that comes through food so much so yeah, I think that comes up in the stories and the point about the originality of recipes I think is a really important one because I don't know if this is like general knowledge or not, but just like an interesting thing, on the logistic end of writing cookbooks, is that you cannot copyright a recipe. And I feel like, what that really indicates is like no one owns a specific recipe, what we own what we can claim copyright over, or ownership over is the story, you know, the storytelling. And I kind of believe that there's only honestly like, less than 10 recipes in the world. Like, basically, like, you can boil something, you can fry it, you can, you know, pickle it, you can, you know, whatever. Like, those are the recipes. The rest is just mixing things up, you know, whatever combination of ingredients, however long you do this, what order do you do it in?... You know, I didn't invent roast chicken, I didn't invent carrot cake. I didn't invent tomato soup, you know, these things that are recipes in my books. But what I can offer in my books is yeah, super clear instruction, and stories, and images, and this just context for the food itself. So I feel like a lot of people who author cookbooks and who are in the food space, feel pressure to be an authority, in a way that I just feel like actually does a disservice to everyone because I think then people aren't giving credit where credit's due, but they're also missing the pleasure of sharing those stories. You know.
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Ann: Is there a sign, like when you're eating something for the first time, are you like, oh, I am definitely going to want to mess around with this and make it my own? Or I definitely want to be able to like put this down in recipe form and iterate on it or like what is your process for being attracted to something that might eventually make it into a cookbook?
Julia: That's such an interesting question. And I don't know if that's a question I've been asked before. It's a really hard thing to describe and I think this is where the sort of art and intuition and all these things that are hard to put words to like really comes in. I'm thinking about this really embarrassing story, so… but once so years ago, my wife and I took this trip to New Orleans and we went to this restaurant and I got this bowl of food. And it was, it was just so good. But it had this broth in it and the broth just tasted like so layered like you could just tell so much time and energy went into making it because it was like, it didn't taste like one thing. It tasted like so many things at the same time. And I just thought it was like really excellent. And I also am like a bit of a lightweight when it comes to alcohol. And I had like maybe two or maybe three drinks, so I was like Julia drunk. And at the end of the meal, I like wrote a note on the receipt. [laughter] This is so embarrassing. And I was like this broth was like amazing. And then I was like weirdly snobby. And I was like, I've gotten to eat like a lot of really good food in my life, like this broth was so good. And Grace was like--
Ann: And I know broth yeah.
Julia: [laughter] And Grace was like mortified. She was like, what are you doing? I was like, No, this is this broth. And I think I put like my email or something. And I think, yeah, I've sort of blocked this out, but I think the chef was very kinda was like, Hey, I can tell you about the broth if you want. But that's just an embarrassing story. But I think that moment when I'm eating something, and you're in the middle of a conversation, and if whatever you're eating, makes you just pause for a second, like, that's the moment when I'm like, oh, I need to know more about this, or I want to know more about this, like, it makes me kind of stop in the middle of my sentence that is like a big, big, like flashing light to me... And I think that's just something that happens when you're present, or I guess when I'm present, you know, and I'm just able to like, really enjoy the experience of eating whatever it is. Or maybe I feel just so connected to the person who's cooking. You know, I love being around people when they're cooking. And maybe I'm just watching them move through their kitchen and they seem to be so joyful about that, or, you know, so connected to what they're doing. Like, that's something I want to know more about, like when something really I guess just grips you in that way. So I feel like I'm always kind of just seeking those moments.
Ann: The other thing that I was struck by in reading this book in this particular moment is how many of those origin stories involve restaurants that are no longer here? And, and that is not like a pandemic casualty, because as you say, I think you write that you handed in this book, just before the pandemic hit, is that right?
Julia: Yeah, I handed in the manuscript in like February 2020, and then photographed it, like of the earliest days of the pandemic, which was surreal. And then I got to edit it basically over, you know, the first, whatever, six months or so of COVID. So I got to kind of reflect on it a bit. So the timing was, I don't know, it was what it was, it was interesting.
Ann: Yeah. And I was struck by how, you know, a lot of the restaurants that show up in these kind of origin stories on that proceed, the recipes are closed, and like many of them closed years ago, you know, family restaurants, like near where your grandmother lived, or like that maybe you grew up going to. And I don't know, I've been thinking a lot in this pandemic, about the kinds of restaurants that are slipping through the cracks of like, you know, like maybe food delivery or community, GoFundMe, like places that are still important to people, but that might not be as digitally savvy. And I don't know, I was I was really touched by, you know, the cookbook as a preservation effort for some of these places that no longer exist. And I'm not sure I would have felt that way if I'd read this book in a non COVID time, as I, as I was thinking about, like places that have been meaningful to me that have closed. But I don't know, I would love to ask you about that, too. It's like documenting a kind of restaurant history in a way, that's another way I read your book.
Julia: You know, it's, it's interesting, too, that you note that a lot of the restaurants I do reference closed long before COVID. And I think a big part of that is just like, I am not a trendy person. Like, if someone is asking me like, what are the best new restaurants to go to? And I'm like, I have no idea. Like, I can send you some websites, but no, like, that is not my department. I really like kind of tried and true older things. I think so much of my work is me...kind of wrestling with nostalgia, honestly, and trying to figure out what it means to me and what it feels and trying to capture these really positive experiences that I've had around food like growing up, because not all of my experiences around food were positive growing up. So you know, that's just some backstory to I think my attachment to older things. Like I still have a sweatshirt that I had when I was a kid at summer camp like it still has my name tag in it. Like, like I'm, I'm attached. I'm sentimental like this. Hi, I'm Julia. I'm sentimental. [laughter] So, you know, that's what I put on my books because I try to just put myself in my books. So it's interesting that this stood out to you because of what's happening to the restaurant industry during COVID. I don't know, I think it's all to me, hearing you reflect on it just makes me just think about the fact that both restaurants and cookbooks are places where culture is preserved, and where it's shared. And that is extremely valuable. And I think that's why it is truly heartbreaking when our favorite restaurants close. And I think it's also why it's so important that there just be so much more diversity and representation, which I know are such overused words. So I like cringe at using them. But it's just so important. Because, you know, I get to put myself out there in my books, and I get to put my stories, you know, I get to put pictures of my family, family members who don't, aren't alive anymore. You know, like, I get to kind of cement these things into like published history in a way that is something I just do not take for granted. And I just think it's so important that so many people get the opportunity to do that. And it's not just important for us authors, but for everyone who sees themselves represented in that.
Ann: I love this idea of thinking about cookbooks, like restaurants as a place where culture is made. Because one of the things that I think is so great and revelatory about the culture that you're creating is about defining healthy, in a way that is not inextricably linked with like, anti-fat or like super, like, skinny, like, as the goal above all else. A definition of healthy, that, that feels like real and true and positive and sustainable for people who are living in all kinds of bodies. How did you come to that definition of healthy? And what did it feel like to put the word healthy in the subtitle of this cookbook, knowing that people have these kind of fatphobic connotations with it?
Julia: This was a long road for me, like in terms of the process of that, you know, I know, you're saying you're interested in process, like it has been a long process and something I continue to process. And you know, I mentioned a little while ago that I feel like so much of my work, writing cookbooks, writing recipes is about getting in touch with like, these positive moments with food. Because I also had so many moments that weren't. And so I guess to just not be vague about that and explain that a little more. I have loved to cook my whole life, I have felt so much joy when I'm cooking, that has been like a through line forever for me. Since like before I can remember, like little, little kid. And at the same time, on the other hand, I have had a completely challenging and fraught relationship with eating. And with my body. And I have had just body image issues forever, many of which I've inherited, I have had total disordered and restrictive eating at times, obsessive exercise stuff at times, anxiety, all these things all wrapped into one life. And I have been trying to just untangle this and understand it. And also just trying really hard to shift my relationship to my body and my relationship to eating and to find as much pleasure in eating, as I do in cooking. And I've noticed along the way, you know, this is really obvious what I'm about to say, but just how much media informs what we think of when we think of the word healthy. And I think that for so long and it continues today, I think the word healthy, is used instead of the word skinny in many places. And understanding that healthy and skinny are not the same thing has honestly, like changed my life. Because I didn't know that before I thought they were the same thing. And I was constantly trying to make my body smaller, and to take up just less space because I thought that meant I would be more valuable. And that was really, really hard because my body wanted to take up the space that takes up. And I was fighting it and my body was just trying to like, ask me to stop for so long. So yeah, I bring all of that to this book. [laughter] In this book, which as you mentioned the word healthy is in the subtitle. I know people will have all different kinds of reactions to that word. And I guess a part of me wanted to not just maybe be a little bit provocative with that, but to also try and just offer another definition of the word. And basically define healthy as having nothing at all to do with weight loss and having everything to do with our relationship to cooking and eating and having just like a positive nourishing relationship to food and one that is free of any type of restriction or deprivation like definitely free of guilt, like no limitations. And it's something that I try every day to feel. And I wish it came more naturally to me. But I, I feel like I did a lot of things that were really mean to my body for a long time that makes it hard, but I don't know it's getting easier. So I'm really just incredibly proud to have written a healthy cookbook that has nothing to do with losing weight, but feels really valuable to me.
Ann: How do you know I mean, you also write in this book about like, being tuned into your feelings as a part of this process, which as someone who's constantly trying to remember that I have feelings really resonated with me. And I'm wondering how, how do you know when you're having kind of like a healthy by your definition experience with food or like a healthy experience of a meal or healthy experience in your body? What does that feel like?
Julia: For me, it feels like I'm being totally present. And I feel like I'm able to identify that at this point in my life very easily, because it feels so different to me, because for so long, I wasn't present. Because I was constantly calculating in my head. I was on and off of Weight Watchers for like, over a decade, like 15 years. And you know, Weight Watchers has you calculate everything, measure everything, but use points instead of you know, calories and stuff. So it seems like it's no big deal. But it's like a big deal. Like you're restricting what you're eating, and you're being obsessive about it, or at least I was. Which meant that every time I ate something, so every day in my life, for over a decade, I was not present while I was eating because I was doing math in my head. And I was also doing math to figure out how much I could move my body to justify whatever I was eating, or how much I could restrict the next day to make up for this or you know, and on and on and on...And I just was not able to be like fully there. I wasn't able to be fully part of the conversations I was having at the table, I wasn't able to like enjoy really delicious food. I wasn't able to even sometimes identify when food wasn't that good. You know, I'm like, maybe I wanted something else, you know, all these types of things. So, yeah, these days, I feel like I'm just more easily able to identify it because I just have this moment where I realized like, Oh, I'm right here, and I'm not anywhere else. And that feels really, really good. So that's been really helpful. Yeah, like super helpful, because for me, so much of my like eating stuff, body image stuff, like my warped sense of what healthy meant, so much of that is so tangled with my anxiety, which runs very deep. And I've come to see, a really, I don't know, a more manageable way for me to look at my anxiety is like it's the inability to be present. Because, for me, if I'm anxious, I'm like worried about something that just happened. So maybe it was how much I just ate or what I just ate. Or I'm worried about something that could happen in the future. Like, I might lose control over what I'm eating, what does that even mean? Like, those kinds of thoughts would happen to me all the time. And so being anxious is like yeah, worried about what just happened, worried about what's going to happen. It is like nothing to do with like, the here and now. So the more I'm able to be present, the more I'm able to access like this really calm, like grounded part of myself. Which honestly has been there all along, because it happens when I cook. I just had a hard time seeing that.
Ann: I want to ask you about the title of this cookbook as well. Because what I saw for the first time, I was like, what a flex. [laughter] I fucking love that it’s called Simply Julia. F first of all, because like, I was just like, wow, like, when do I have my Simply Ann moment? [laughter] Like you really like, you really put something on my like long term goals list there. And then second of all, you know, you share a name with a very famous like, like white American woman chef, you know what I mean? And I just like I died for it. And so I would love to hear your thoughts on Simply Julia and like, what is behind that title?
Julia: Yeah, I love hearing your reaction to it. Because honestly, it's taken me a long time to say the title of the book without like, bursting into like, completely red cheeks and feeling really like embarrassed about it. But also, I didn't fight it right, like I used it. So I think there's a part of me that wants to be as bold as maybe that seems. But anyway, the title is my mom's idea.
Ann: Love it.
Julia: She has been telling me for years that I should do a book called Simply Julia, like that has just been like her thought. And I'll add, my mom isn't just like supportive mom who like, believes I should have a book titled after myself, which is totally sweet. But my mom has like, worked in and around publishing and advertising for her whole life, and like really, like sees this kind of thing. And she just goes around like branding everything all the time. She's always making titles for things. So it comes from a source who like, really has made a career out of like seeing this kind of thing. And I for so long was like, Mom, what does that even mean? But basically this book started without a title which is very unusual for me because I am my mother's daughter and I come up with like the titles for things all the time. And I just didn't know what this book was. I knew what it would include and I knew I wanted it to be the most practical book I've ever written. I knew I wanted this kind of healthy comfort thing to try to sort of push against you know the go-to definition of healthy and I just didn't know how to tie this together, you know. The recipes are from all over the place, like both geographically, people like we spoke about, and I just didn't know what the kind of hook was. And I just kept coming back to this kind of you know like mental post-it I've had for years my mom being like the thing that ties us together is you and so I thought I'll just go for it and I'll just put myself out there. Also felt very like I don't know but let's try it and most cookbook authors are either well known for being on television where there's a cooking show or they run you know they have something else that kind of gives them the platform to do the cookbook. I am a cookbook author and I'm a home cook who writes for other home cooks so putting myself out there both my image and also my name definitely felt terrifying but kind of like the singing workshop like just go for it, see what happens. And hearing your reaction means a lot to me, so thank you for telling me. My mom is going to be thrilled.
Ann: Of course. Of course, like a brand savvy mom is at the root of this ultimate flex title. I love it. And is this really your kitchen on the cover?
Julia: Oh yeah, that is our kitchen, we cleaned it up. And I am just extremely grateful that that is where I get to spend my every day.
Ann: It’s beautiful. Somehow that really ties it together for me. You know, like I can really envision being in your kitchen while you’re making this stuff. Before we go, I have to ask a couple of like lightning round questions.
Julia: Yeah!
Ann: First is about snacks. I want to hear about your favorite healthy comfort snacks.
Julia: Oh gosh, I feel like anything can be a snack. [laughter] But I, are you familiar with BjornQorn?
Ann: I don’t think so.
Julia: Okay, it is a very popular like packaged popcorn. It has like nutritional yeast on it, it’s so, so good. And they, it’s popped, like solar popped. Like they use the sun, I don’t really know how it works. But anyways, it’s delicious popcorn and they actually make it really close to where we live. It’s so good. So that’s the first thing that came to mind.
Ann: Mmm I mean my number one snack is like air popped popcorn made with like nutritional years and whatever like sumac or whatever, whatever like spicy things I have. So I feel very like mmhmm, like I’m gonna check this out. And, and also does that mean you’re more of a salty snack person than like a sweet snack person?
Julia: I feel like that would be true. I don’t know I’ve never really thought about it. I’ve always thought like oh, I’m going to have a little dessert as opposed to a sweet snack. So I think it’s just semantics.
Ann: [laughter] I love that. So as this episode is coming out into the world, we are like starting to this point where like, it’s possible that someone listening and like an immediate circle of friends and family will all be vaccinated. And we can be gathering in these kind of small groups over a meal for the first time in a long time. So I’m wondering if you, if in during the pandemic kind of made kind of fantasies about like a first post-Covid extended family meal or you know chosen family dinner party. Did you have a vision for that? Were you thinking about that? Did you have plans for that?
Julia: Umm that is just such a sweet question. I’m glad you’re asking me now and not like a month ago or a year ago…
Ann: 100% we need to kind of feel in order to really talk about this question.
Julia: Exactly, exactly. My parents and my in-laws have been vaccinated which I’m very very grateful for. I honestly, I don’t know, I haven’t even thought about what to cook for them. I’m just excited to have them sitting at our kitchen table. Umm but yeah probably something from the book because they’re so many of my mother in-law’s recipes in the book, which makes me so happy. So I might make, there’s a recipe for what she calls sizzle burgers. They’re so good. They’re like these really simple like burgers that you make in a cast iron skillet with lots of onions and worcestershire sauce. I never know how to say that, I just tried it there. And some butter. They’re just delicious and you can eat them over anything. They’re really good on rice because it makes like this pan sauce, so that came to mind. I don’t know, there’s a lot of soups and stews in the book and I love those and especially anything you can make that you can just like leave on the pot on the stove done before everyone gets there. And you just ladle it up and just sit around and enjoy each other’s company.
Ann: Ahh I love that! [laughter] Even just hearing that, I was like I want to make stew for everyone I love. Do you have a most used cookbook on your own shelf?
Julia: You know it’s really funny. Like, as we were talking about before like about intuitive cooking versus recipe cooking, you know I really don’t follow many recipes. But I own a million gazillion cookbooks… You know a cookbook I most love like the most recent one that I do use. I’m going to amend my answer, it’s a book called Snacking Cakes. And I know you mentioned you don’t bake a lot because you approach things the jazz musician way, this book is so wonderful. All like super super simple cakes and tons of variations on them. And you make them just like one bowl, a whisk, one baking pan, like no equipment. It’s very intuitive I find and I use that book all the time and I’ve been recommending it to everyone. Snacking Cakes.
Ann: It also sounds like a cute pet name, like--
Julia: Totally! [laughter]
Ann: Like all my little snacking cakes. Like I love it. And finally, I know you reference cooking for friends a lot in the book, do you have a bestie you want to shoutout? Someone that has really shaped the work that you do maybe?
Julia: Yeah, I mean if it’s okay, I would like to shoutout three friends--
Ann: Yes.
Julia: --Who I write about in the book, Cleo, Amelia, and Lizzie. And I think of them as my card night friends and just to give some suspense, you can read about why I call them that in the book. But these are my three best friends and part of what keeps us so close is that we all love to cook and we love to cook for each other and with each other. And I have missed them so much, we have not been together in person in over a year and I’m getting tearing thinking about it. And cooking and food is such a big part of our individual and collective friendship and they have definitely shaped so much of who I am as a person and how I show up for my friends. You know by seeing how they’ve shown up for me and they’ve also shaped so much of what’s in this book. You know I think about them all the time and like would they make this, okay, it’ll make the cut.
Ann: I love that, you know, the friend test, like is this valuable? I use that all the time in a million different ways. Julia, thank you so much for being on the show, this has been such a delight.
Julia: This has been wonderful and I just appreciate this you know opportunity to come on the show and it’s just been so nice to talk to you. You know, your voice has literally been in my ear for so long. So it’s so nice to talk to you.
[interview ends]
Aminatou: Ah now I’m hungry!
Ann: Oh my gosh, she’s done the impossible. We both want to cook and eat now.
Aminatou: Okay like my I’m hungry, is very different than my I want to cook, but--
[laughter]
Aminatou: Like I would love to be fed, thank you.
Ann: Okay, okay, noted. If you are interested in this book, Julia asked us to mention that you can get a signed personalized copy if you order from Oblong, if you order from Oblong Book which is an independent bookstore. We will put the link in the show notes. Otherwise you can find Simple Julia wherever you like to buy your books.
Aminatou: See you on the internet, boo boo.
Ann: See you on the kitchen. [laughter] In the kitchen.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.