Whimsy and Elegance

5/29/20- The inimitable Maurice Harris joins us to discuss his creative origins, how he started using flowers in art, being a small business owner in the time of corona, and his new show Centerpiece.

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll

LINKS

Centerpiece is on Quibi

Bloom and Plume is the home for Maurice’s eye-popping art, using flowers

Bloom and Plume Coffee is the coffee shop Maurice and his brother run, and is open in Los Angeles for curbside pickup and delivery

Follow Maurice on IG for more delights

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TRANSCRIPT: 

[Ads]

(0:30)

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. I am really just so happy to hear your voice and I'm so excited about today's episode.

Aminatou: I am super excited about today's episode. What do we have on deck?

Ann: We have the singular Maurice Harris on the show today and Maurice does many fascinating and wonderful things. He was trained as a multidisciplinary artist and for a while made incredible window displays for big clothing brands and then transitioned to being a floral artist which is how I think a lot of people came to know him. His company's called Bloom and Plume and he makes these beautiful, large-scale works of art with flowers and plants. And then more recently he and his brother opened a coffee shop called Bloom and Plume Coffee in Los Angeles. And then most, most recently he is the host of a show called Centerpiece which is -- I'm going to be frank with you as I was with him -- the only reason to download Quibi. [Laughs] It is a short-form show in which he interviews well-known people about their histories and makes a floral work of art in response to their stories.

[Theme Song]

(2:24)

Aminatou: You know I love a larger-than-life floral display as I love a larger-than-life personality so I'm very excited for this.

Ann: Yeah, Maurice is all of it. And I also have to say it is, in the true spirit of CYG phone-a-friend, I got to know him because we have an important friend in common which is also a friend in common with you, our friend Jorge Rivas who has been on the show before.

Aminatou: Love you Jorge!

Ann: I know! And I really just slowly over time getting to know a person who is dear to a person who is dear to you . . . 

Aminatou: Now I'm going to go on my phone to find a picture you took of me at that coffee shop because I really like that picture. Thank you for jogging that memory.

Ann: Ugh, yes. If you're listening you should 100 percent not just watch Maurice's show but you should stop into Bloom and Plume when you are in Los Angeles and give them some support because it is not just a coffee shop or not just a business but it really is a community gathering space. He and his brother have really put a lot of intention behind creating a space that centers people of color, queer people of color, the black community. They have a lot of events that are specifically designed to be nurturing and really go above and beyond just the fact that it's a commercial space so a strong plug for supporting their work. Anyway here is Maurice with me.

[Interview Starts]

(3:45)

Ann: Maurice thank you so much for being on the show.

Maurice: Oh my god, thank you for having me! I am beyond excited. I didn't know if I would ever get an invite to this show and I am just so beyond honored to be in your company. This is like amazing.

Ann: I'm trying to Google you and just be like okay, did I miss anything that Maurice is up to? Because there's a lot. First of all I get some random NFL player so whatever that is. Clearly the algorithm does not know me that well. And second -- then Google suggests florists when I type your name. And I'm like wow, if that isn't a diminishment, reductive way to describe all the things you have going on. So my first question is do you identify as a florist?

Maurice: I used to. I identify firstly as an artist. It took me a very long time to get to that place in my life but now I'm comfortable with the term and flowers are one of my primary mediums.

Ann: So tell me about your first like artistic I guess experience with flowers. When did you first look at a flower and think yes, this as a form of expression?

Maurice: What a great question and such a complicated answer to it because I would say in my adult life it was when I was in art school and my best friend would have dinner parties and I'd be like "Ooh, I'll do the flowers." And I would try to come up with some interesting way to go to the flower market and put flowers together. But in retrospect I would have to say that it is my grandmother's presence and her way of putting things together. She was a church hat lady maker and she also was a florist herself. She primarily worked in artificial flowers but she did all the flowers for the church. She did everybody's wedding and I just was like that level of creativity, and she was so good at it. But seeing my grandmother create in a very atypical way really let me know that there were possibilities beyond the status quo.

(6:00)

Ann: I love that that you were able to identify at such a young age that what she was doing was art, was special, you know? Because I think so often particularly artistic forms practiced by women who are not claiming that artist label loud and proud are often never given credit like that, and certainly not by people who are, you know, their family members are closest to them.

Maurice: Well what I love about you saying that is I do understand that as a man I do have certain privileges over other people even though it gets complicated being a black gay man. But I do understand those dynamics are really intense and when I had my piece at MOCA I was invited to be in a show, the Manny Farber show at MOCA, and I had an arrangement that I would make every week that sat in the gallery as a sculpture.

The challenge that I gave myself was to honor my grandmother's design principles and things that were signifiers that reminded me of her because she never was able to pursue her own creative career or didn't have the agency to think about -- to do that. Like she had eight children. She had food on the children at 7 a.m., 12 noon, and 6:30 p.m. for my grandfather every day that he lived and they were married for almost 50 years -- over 50 years or something like that. And she gave up her flower career. She gave up her hat making career to raise her children. And when I talk about an incredible, creative person I want to say they're like . . . as an older person I want to say there are probably some built up resentments that she probably would never fully articulate because she's a Christian woman if you will.

(8:05)

But I challenged myself to kind of look at the source of my creativity in that project and really find a way to honor her because I feel like, like you just said, women often don't get honored for their art and it's often put into a craft category which is often seen as less than. And so when I used flowers and I was given this platform to have my arrangement in a gallery in an art context I thought it was important to look at the source of where that came from.

Ann: So, you know, you had this inspiration in the form of your grandmother and her practice. I'm wondering how flowers became central to your own art practice.

Maurice: I never -- my parents were always very supportive of whatever I kind of wanted to do knowing that they didn't have the means for me to . . . that they weren't a safety net. Meaning do whatever you want, just know that you can't come back home because we don't have the means to take care of you. We can barely take care of ourselves. I mean not exactly but kind of. And so . . .

Ann: Right. So the risk is your own basically.

Maurice: Correct. And so saying I'm going to become an artist was a little ridiculous because how is that sustainable? How do you have a life that -- and I think that's with most people of color or most people, they want their kids to be doctors or lawyers or things that you can see a trajectory of success right? Monetarily and security.

Ann: Right, there's a path.

(9:45)

Maurice: Yeah. And so for me I was like how can I find the loophole of being creative, being an artist, but living a sustainable life? And so I went to art school and I was going to be a fashion designer because I thought that was a way to be very creative but it was also commercial so it was like a hybrid.

Ann: Right. People buy clothes. They do not buy wall paintings, like most people.

Maurice: Correct. Exactly. And I went to trade school before that and then I went to a four-year school, I went to Otis College of Art and Design after and I really wanted them to really help me craft my creativity and hone my aesthetics but it was more like they were imposing aesthetics onto me and I wasn't interested in that so I transferred to fine art.

When I graduated I ended up working in window display and to me I felt like I had hit the jackpot because I really found this synthesis of creativity and commerce and sustainability. And then slowly the funding for windows and all that stuff started to subside. And on the sidelines I just like played with flowers. I always tried to have something that I do creatively for me because when money is involved it dilutes the creativity. It dilutes the purity of whatever expression you're trying to make. So like now that window display had become my job and that's where I was creative I actually didn't feel creative anymore because it was for somebody else so I was doing flours on the side.

So then flowers became this way to express myself in a way that was immediate, that didn't have high stakes or the largest commitment to it, and that felt safe to me. And then I just kind of had a knack for it and people responded to it so I just kept doing it and I kept doing it. But if I'm really going to let you in on a little secret here I was very strategic in looking at all of my different interests which I'm a very stereotypical black gay boy. I love fashion. I love music. I love clothes. I love hair. I love makeup.

(12:20)

And so the idea of being a stylist or being a makeup artist or going to hair school or something like that seemed in my wheelhouse but I was like I feel like all of those spaces are so over-saturated. Where is a space that hasn't been touched in a while? And at the time when I was starting to dabble in this around 2008, flowers -- the modern aesthetic of flowers had been around for like 10 or 15 years and hadn't been updated or touched and it was still looked at as dated. I was like this needs a new breath of fresh air and I think there might be some room for me so I started on this journey to pave my own way.

Ann: I love that. And in my Google snooping of you I read -- I mean love it. I love to Google snoop. You said in some other interview that it was someone who was assisting you on window displays who was like maybe you have too much floral design work to really keep this window display day job and maybe you should look at that being your main thing. I don't know if that's true or if I misread it but I love the idea of that push not coming from some traditional mentor up on high but coming from someone who's working closely with you and really observing your practice and your life.

(13:40)

Maurice: Yeah. It was actually my assistant at Juicy Couture when I was working corporately and she was like such a huge advocate for me and she was just like Maurice you work so hard here and you do such a good job but really you're not being seen and you have such a talent and you have such a skill for what -- for these flowers. People want that. And she was like my friends are getting married. You're going to do their wedding and they're going to pay for it and you just need to have business cards.

Ann: [Laughs] Yes.

Maurice: I was like okay. Done and done. So shout-out to Maurico Jones because she really put the fire under my ass to get it going.

Ann: Ugh. And I've been thinking a lot about, you know, bringing flowers into my own home at this time and also, you know, preparing for this conversation with you thinking about what it really means to have something that is alive and in the process of dying so central to the way you express yourself. I wonder how that has affected you like as an artist and a human to so constantly be working in a medium that is decaying before your eyes, not to get bleak about it, but I wonder if you have thoughts about that.

Maurice: Oh girl are you ready to get into it? Because I'm about to serve it up.

Ann: I am. [Laughs] My plate is out. I know you can't see it but I'm waiting. I'm waiting.

Maurice: No. I actually have been doing a lot of thinking about this in the last couple of days. It's about to get real. And what I mean by that is I think that this pandemic has really shown how little control we have as human beings and how ephemeral life is in all of the ways. And I think whenever I notice myself about to have a breakdown or feeling very anxious or having anxiety it's around my lack of being able to control my circumstance. Whether that's like I don't know where my next check is coming from, I don't know when I'll ever be able to leave my house again, I don't know if I'll be able to pay my employees, I don't know what's going on with any of my businesses. Like I can't control it. It's literally out of my control.

(16:25)

And so this sense of control I feel personally that as human beings we have been taught that we have all of this control and we can gain some sense of control but the reality is at any point in time that can be taken from me and it is not promised or guaranteed. And so to bring this full circle flowers represent that to me in the most beautiful way and it is such a reminder that nothing is permanent. Nothing is promised to me. I have to move on. I can't be too attached to anything because it can just go. And if I don't appreciate and love this in this moment I will miss it. And that is what flowers do for me. And the interesting thing about it is I think I have been in practice of this for years but I haven't been able to articulate it until this morning, like for real.

Ann: Well and when you say you've been in practice for years I mean I believe it. I don't know how you could put in the kind of work you do with these living things and then have to watch all of your great works decay without on some subconscious level maybe internalizing this truth. You know, that some of us or like your friend's dad is just unable to synthesize right now.

(17:55)

Maurice: Yeah. To me it's such a . . . this time has been oddly -- not even oddly, it's been really beautiful I think. It's clearly horrible and we're all going through it and I don't want to sound insensitive in any way, shape, or form. However I think the most beautiful things always come out of the most tremendous amount of pain. Like why are black people so incredibly talented and amazing at all kinds of things? 400 years of slavery. You know, I really believe that those things are very connected. It's like through pain comes triumph. Through pain comes beauty. Through pain comes like . . . people say oh my god, you do such an amazing job with these flowers, blah, blah, blah. It's how I process the world. I was not accepted as a gay kid in my family. I have always felt very alone. I suffer from depression. I am a very lonely person and I pour myself into my business and the work that I do because it's cathartic for me.

And so I think if people really take this time to reflect -- sit in their pain, let it go through their bodies so that they can know that they can come out on the other side I think our world will actually become a better place. We're so scared of pain in this country. We're so scared to . . . and it makes sense because you don't know what's going to happen right? It's like well I've got to be on tomorrow. I've got to show up to work and I've got to do a job so if I indulge with this pain how do I cover it up to get to work tomorrow? Well now we ain't got nowhere to go. There's nothing to do. So let it go through your body, and I've really been trying to sit in that for the last few weeks, months. [Laughter] To allow my body to reset because I have been this capitalistic model doesn't work and it's always like somebody has to be exploited for it to work. There's just no reason that with the amount of work I put in and the amount of "success" or profile of clients I have that I'm not more successful. Like I don't make crazy amounts of mistakes but it's because our system is not setup for small guys to win. And that is really unfortunate.

(20:40)

Ann: Ugh. And I really, as I'm listening to you say that I'm thinking about how this is all very theoretical or something that you can kind of point out in conversation or on the Internet. But if you are actually the owner of a small business or a couple of small businesses with very thin margins you have to make choices that are forced by this broader system that are really not value-aligned sometimes. I mean we talk about a lot on this show like how we try to muddle through our decisions about advertising and who we work with and all that stuff because transparency is the only way that we have found to acknowledge that disconnect of actually the system doesn't allow us to live our values and eat three meals a day, you know?

Maurice: Yes!

Ann: [Laughs] And I would love to hear you talk a little bit about being a small business owner and what . . . I know this is going to be super broad but how that has challenged you in terms of these bigger beliefs about the way the world should be.

Maurice: Oh, I'm taking a deep breath because it's a really . . . it's quite a heavy conversation because it's so simple yet it's so complicated. The demand of small business to deliver higher quality, better stuff for more affordable prices when big companies are able to sell you cheap crap for really high prices and don't really have to do much for their big name is where we're at.

(22:30)

And so a person that's living that out, I mean me and my brother own my coffee shop together. My sister has come in and is helping us with social media and helping with programming. My sister has two masters degrees, one in clinical social work and one in divinity and she's like running our social media because she really sees the potential of what we have and knows that we don't have the bandwidth or the means to hire somebody to do this for us.

And so in-between her taking her clients and running her church and doing all of her things she's helping us because she feels that it's that important. And it's things like that. There's three people. Me and my brother both work full-time jobs and then try to run this coffee shop and we don't take a salary. I pour thousands of dollars into that business every month and it's still not making ends meet. And people love it. It's beautiful. It's delicious. It's like all the things. You're just like I can't believe this isn't so successful.

Ann: [Laughs]

Maurice: And it's like yeah, no. I mean we have to rewind and think about how we had a year delay because the Department of Water and Power decided that we had to upgrade the electricity for the whole building, not just our space, while we were halfway through construction and then it just halted the whole project for almost a year. Like eleven months so a year, you know?

(24:12)

And that's -- who pays for that? I still have to pay rent. I still have . . . there's all of this stuff that accumulates. I had gotten to the point where I was like okay you guys, my ego aside we might have to close this business because it's just not working. And I had a very, very clear, hard conversation with my siblings and they were just like I think we can pull it together. I was like you know what I'm going to do is I'm going to get out of the way. Me and Moses trying to run this together -- Moses is my brother -- trying to run this together is just not the move. We need one leader and I need to take a step back because I have other things going on and he was like great. And we were getting so much momentum. We were on it. We had activations. We were starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel and then COVID-19 happened.

Ann: Ugh, and you were . . . I'm trying to remember. You were fully closed for the first several weeks right? Talk maybe about some of your decisions around that like staying open and supporting staff and how -- yeah, how did you even muddle through that?

Maurice: Yeah we closed. As soon as the city shut down we closed and on the flower side I was able to keep my salaried employees paid but on the coffee shop side we had to furlough. And then Moses is so on it and he had us both apply for the PPP loan and then we went through our bank that we got our SBA loan from and we got it pretty immediately. But my loan was -- both of our businesses got the PPP and I want to say they were both around $20,000 or $25,000, something like that, which is a percentage of our employees' salaries which is incredibly helpful but also isn't going to do much past June.

Ann: Right.

(26:25)

Maurice: You know, we're like real people and it's weird to be like I am not . . . I don't work at the coffee shop but I'm asking people to put their lives at risk to serve people. It's just complicated and weird but then people need jobs and we need a way to pay them and the only way . . . it's just like how do you make these decisions? And so we're trying to make them as safely, as sane, as thoughtful as we can. I mean of course we're having a few hiccups along the way but it's par for the course you know? We're not perfect, we're humans.

[Ads]

(29:50)

Ann: Just listening to you talk about trying to balance these questions of like personal safety but also financial obligation but also, you know, values that previously didn't seem to be in conflict with each other are suddenly a lot more complicated. Myself I feel like I have decision fatigue just living my life these days.

Maurice: Whew, girl.

Ann: [Laughs]

Maurice: It's so . . . it's too much! I mean I will tell you. I will tell you, I will be honest, I definitely had some privilege and I totally acknowledge it. I have worked my whole adult life. Even when I'm on vacation I'm working and I don't . . . I've never been able to fully turn off. I low-key wish that I could either go into a comfortable coma or the world could stop for a couple of weeks just so I could catch my breath because I always feel like I'm behind. I never feel like I can catch up.

And so when this shutdown first happened I was actually shooting another show and so all of March I had planned on not being available anyway to any of my businesses. And so when everything shutdown I just disappeared and I shut down. I woke up when I wanted to. I didn't look at anything. I didn't read any emails. Just nothing. I allowed myself to rest because I knew that this wasn't going away in two weeks or in a month. I knew this was going to last a while. Something just told me that. And so it was like Maurice if you don't rest, if you don't get geared up you're just going to be continuing that same cycle that does not work for you.

(31:50)

So I really did take the time to try to neutralize myself so that as I am getting into making all of these complicated, weird decisions my bandwidth is a little higher for it. It's still extremely hard because when I was ready to hire back all of my hourly workers every single one of them had found other jobs and I was just like how did you guys find jobs during this time? [Laughter]

But here's the harsh reality: they are young people of color who had to be the breadwinners for their family. I mean and my staff, I love every single person that works with me and I cherish them being there and it means a lot. But when one of my employees was like my mom lost her job and there was no one that could go and work so I had to go and take something I could start crying right now because this kid is just the bomb. The end of June I don't know how I'm going to support anybody. Like he found something where it was more sustainable so I had to be like okay, great, who's going to water the plants now? Guess it's going to be my bitch ass so here we are. [Laughs]

Ann: Ugh. I'm going to ask you one more question before we talk about Centerpiece because I really . . .

Maurice: Yeah.

Ann: But before we go there I have another sort of sustainability question I guess and . . .

Maurice: Yes.

Ann: I know you do a lot of work with brands who I think really, really benefit from being adjacent to your creativity, your aesthetic, your brilliance, and I wonder how you decide how much to give to those partnerships. What to hold back for yourself and your practice and your own businesses and what's worth sharing with who.

(34:00)

Maurice: Girl you are good. You're good. You know how to ask a question because that is a juicy one right there.

Ann: She's been wondering okay? I had to get to a formal setting to ask you. [Laughs]

Maurice: You know what? I am here for it. I will tell you, full transparency, it depends on their budget. Just like straight-up. It's a combination. For the bigger brands it's all about budget so it's like depending on how much you have to work with will depend on how much of my bandwidth you can get. Depending on what the project is and what it promotes and who it celebrates will depend on if I give extra or not. Recently I get on the phone with people, they have half-baked ideas and I'm just like you guys, you can't open the oven when the bread is half done. It is going to fall so just . . .

Ann: Or just pour some batter in there with no pan. [Laughs]

Maurice: Right. Do not come to me with your half-baked idea and expect me to finish making it and make the peanut butter and jelly sandwich and make the jam and make the peanut butter and make it beautiful and plate it. No. That is not my job. I am supposed to be the icing, the décor. Yes I am part of the filling but I am not -- the structure has to be there. And so now my big thing is I give people their half-baked ideas back to them.

Ann: [Laughs] So what if I was like . . . so let's roleplay. I'm a big brand but I say something to you like "Hey, I would love to do a thing. I don't know, we're thinking like video." Something like that, not even -- the vaguest of vague. How do you . . .

(36:05)

Maurice: Oh no, it's my favorite. I'll give you an example. I'll give you a real one.

Ann: Okay.

Maurice: So somebody calls me during the pandemic and they're like "Hey, we're working with a really big brand and we would love for you to do a flower class or a flower installation or whatever. It would be like so cool." And I was like okay. I was like well . . . and this was like right when we're in the thick of it. It's like well FYI the flower market was mandated to shutdown and they had to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of flowers so my access to flowers is abysmal so there's that. "Oh my god, they should've donated those to a hospital at least." That was a snide comment. Then I was like "Hmm, having live material in hospital rooms right now with little bugs or whatever could be on them is actually unsafe. That could make them sicker. Who's going to get them there? And they're boxes of flowers so just delivering boxes of flowers? Not arrangements but boxes of flowers to people is what you should do?" And I was like this seems a little tone deaf. How does this flower display that I'm going to do tie into all the people of color that are dying of COVID-19? How does it support my small black-owned business? What does this have to do with anything? And if I could tell you the brand, ugh, it would make this story so much more juicy.

Ann: [Laughs] I'll wait until we stop recording.

(37:45)

Maurice: [Laughs] But it was like you guys, come on! People are just in their weird little privileged bubbles not thinking about what it's like on the ground and it's getting increasingly frustrating. So I know for a fact that the universe takes care of me and every time I doubt it or like every time I get scared about it it comes through like clockwork. And so now I have the confidence that it works out. I refuse to stress myself out about things that I can't control, going back to kind of the beginning of our conversation, which is like I can't control what's going on in the world so I just need to do me. And when people come to ask me for things like if it doesn't align with my values and what I'm into which I'm pretty damn clear about at this point I don't do it.

Ann: Right.

Maurice: Because all money is not good money. And that doesn't come from this privileged place of like well I've got thousands of dollars in my bank account. No I don't. I just know that when I go -- because I've done it before -- when I go into these weird projects I end up spending my own money on them and I'm just like how did that happen? How did this $5,000 budget that I thought I had turn into seven? And now this is costing me 2K. That's crazy. No.

Ann: Wow, corporate charity. You are giving to charity regularly.

Maurice: [Laughs] Right. What is that? Get out of here. No. Especially when I see the amount of resources that go to non-sensible things like I actually think I'm a person that moves the conversation forward. That is what I'm interested in. If I'm putting it out in the world I'm trying to move the needle. And when I see the funding of certain shows or certain ideas or certain projects I'm just like and you want to give me what to do what? The computer says no.

(40:10)

Ann: [Laughs] Does not compute.

Maurice: Nope.

Ann: I want to talk about Centerpiece which Quibi, who needs that? And then when I saw that you had a show I was like my finger went to that App Store button so fast. I as was like this is why -- truly those people need to know. And I have to say 1) the combo of whimsy and elegance is truly unparalleled. One of the hardest pairings to pull off in my opinion. This show really does it for me on those levels. And the second one is oh my god you are an incredible interviewer. I want to talk about -- I would love for you to talk about the premise of the show and kind of how you landed on what it is and what it does.

Maurice: Yeah. So thank you so much. I mean you know how incredible I think you are so . . .

Ann: Stop.

Maurice: Getting compliments from you as a person that has such discerning taste and a discerning eye, I really, really do receive that and appreciate that because you don't just give that away. Thank you very, very much because this show was made with all the love that I had to give and all the attention I have to give and so I really receive that and I'm very grateful.

Like I kind of just said I'm really interested in forwarding the conversation. To me I think that one of the things that we're not thinking about anymore or not thinking about at all right now is digital pollution and media pollution and I think that everybody's concerned about their carbon footprint. Everybody's concerned about . . . and we're not looking at the stuff that makes our brain go numb. And social media is causing depression in these really crazy ways. It's all focused on results and not the process and so people get obsessed with the results and don't focus on the process, you know?

(42:20)

I remember somebody said something to me like Brittney Spears' Oops I Did It Again is in its 20 year reunion which is crazy to me. But I remember when she first came out I was like who is this overnight success? This is crazy. But the reality is she had been working at that for ten years.

Ann: The Mickey Mouse Club, hello? Yeah.

Maurice: Yes. And so we failed to -- or I think as a society when we see somebody really make it we're not seeing all the behind-the-scenes work that goes into that. And so as one creative to another, as a creative that struggles with this constantly, I wanted to talk to other creatives that exude that, that go through that, that are that, and to talk about that. To talk about process. It's like I want to talk about how magic is created without giving away the magic trick but revealing and letting you in on this idea and then honoring that person for being so generous with their creativity by presenting them with a floral installation, something that I'm relatively good at.

Ann: Ugh. I love that also as a thank you for the kind of vulnerability that these conversations require, I mean I think about this all the time where I do interviews as a journalist where I'm asking people to be very revealing about themselves. I mean I just asked you 20 questions that were prying and I'm not compensating you and meanwhile reality TV is at least paying people to pry in their lives. I really resonate with the idea of, you know, not just saying thank you at the end of the interview but, you know, really, truly in a way that you are so good at using your skills to thank them in this more tangible way as part of the process of the discussion. Sometimes it can feel very transactional. You mentioned media pollution. You're right about people focusing on the end result but I think that there's also this focus on offer up your trauma for nothing, you know?

(44:35)

Maurice: Yes, yes. The trauma porn is insane. It's too much. And for me I wanted to . . . I wanted to see people. I know that I am constantly wanting to be seen and not like for all the crazy clothes I wear or how outlandish my personality is but for the level of sensitivity and thoughtfulness and beauty that I try to bring to the world. And I think that with each guest I want to say I'm pretty confident we accomplished it where it's just like I see you. I get you. I listened to you and I understand you. Because when I am interviewing a person I am fully present. I try to like -- often right after it I have no idea what we talked about because I was just so present in that conversation trying to connect, trying to follow what they're saying, trying not to . . . like I definitely have to guide the conversation a little bit but really letting that connection happen. It's so sad because the conversations are like 45 minutes to like an hour and 15 minutes and you get three minutes of it on the show. But like . . . 

Ann: How can I get the extended cut? I want the full version.

(46:05)

Maurice: Girl, girl, we're going to have to do like a podcast or something.

Ann: Oh my god you are. We'll talk about this later offline.

Maurice: Yeah, it's -- okay perfect. Perfect. Because it's like it's insane to see like I share and I open myself up which then allows them the space to open up. Just that exchange, it's very real. I am what you see. I am who I am. I'm only good at being myself and so I really try to lean into that and not try to be somebody that I'm not.

Ann: One through line for me in all of your work that I've been privileged to witness is just how political beauty can be. Your work really makes that hit home for me in a way that very few artists' work really does. Just that beauty is political idea. I'm wondering if you could talk about that a little bit and if that is deliberate or . . . I know everyone has their own experience with art as a consumer so maybe that is just my end receiving experience.

Maurice: I'm over here shaking my head because I am just like this girl is trying to make love to me right now. These questions!

Ann: [Laughs] Also if I was trying to make love with you we would not be doing it over a podcast interview. Give me some credit okay?

Maurice: [Laughs] I -- yes. I'm a person that is obsessed with aesthetics and so I have really . . . have been investigating that. Like ever since I was a child. I think it comes from my grandmother. It comes from my dad. It comes from my mom. All these people that put visuals as a way to show pride. When I was young I was taught that you give your best to Christ and that means you get dressed up for church and you put on your Sunday's best for church. Now I would say the tagline is come as you are which is just as relevant I suppose. But my younger years, my formative years, was in that mode.

(48:25)

And when I think about beauty and I think about . . . like to me it's just a universal tool that we use to lure people in. It's like the Kardashians are like black people that aren't black so the allure of like black aesthetics being on a non-black body is less threatening which then makes it more attractive which then makes it where everybody feels comfortable to like that because it's not okay to like just straight-up black aesthetics because that's less than.

And so there is this whole thing where I'm just like oh, and that's aesthetics 101. That's by 101. And so I try to use that tool to re-imagine what does it look like when black people are seen as the beautiful beings that they already are? When you just see an amazing flower arrangement and it's undeniably beautiful and then black hands created that. When you see that like the creativity is -- it is this universal thing and like I work in a medium that has been dominated by, you know, white people and yet I can hang with any of them you know? And it's one of those -- it's so neutralizing to me and I love that. I love it because I think that it's a . . . it's a subversive way, a sexy way, a sensual way to get people to consider looking at something differently.

(50:18)

Ann: Okay. We're almost out of time so I want to do a quick little lightning round.

Maurice: Yes.

Ann: A few rapid-fire questions at the very end.

Maurice: Yes.

Ann: Okay, top snacks.

Maurice: Oh my god, I love dark chocolate covered raisins.

Ann: What? [Laughs]

Maurice: Those are my jam. Is that weird?

Ann: Healthy and -- no it's like the perfect combination of it's healthy and it's candy.

Maurice: And I love my . . . I'm allergic to nuts but I found a loophole with sunflower seed butter so a banana with sunflower seed butter on it is like heaven for me.

Ann: Another healthy snack. I love this.

Maurice: [Laughs]

Ann: Okay.

Maurice: I mean my trash snack is nachos.

Ann: Okay, great, thank you. I was -- you know, not that I was accusing you of posturing with the healthy snacks but I was really like all right. [Laughter]

Maurice: Okay!

Ann: Somehow the third snack being nachos I can exhale. I'm like thank you, okay. [Laughter] Okay, so you and I know each other because we have a very important friend in common.

Maurice: Yes.

Ann: Jorge. And the word Amina and I use for that or the term is friend-in-law, like you and I are friends-in-law.

Maurice: Oh yes, yes.

Ann: You know, we are connected through this beloved other. I mean we obviously get along ourselves but we are connected through this important person.

Maurice: Correct.

(51:55)

Ann: And I'm wondering if you could shout-out some -- a friend or two who has been really, I don't know, crucial to forming you into the human you are today.

Maurice: Oh, I have a few friends who are on that list. Jorge is definitely one of them. He's one of my best friends. My I call -- I call this person my gay mother which is Sari Zamora who is just so critical in the human being that I am, is the first person that showed me unconditional love despite how tacky I was in college.

Ann: [Laughs]

Maurice: And how embarrassed they were to be in my presence because I was so tacky. But just gave me the utmost amount of love and acceptance when I didn't even know how to love myself. My best friend Tim who lives in New York, I love him so much. He is the first person that took me to -- we went to dance class together and I became a dance teacher. I mean it's like crazy the amount of adventures we've been on together. My dear friend Shamus who is absolutely insane and is the person who made me start my Color of Fear project where I photographed black men and flowers and has really, really helped me to own my art practice and continue to do so. My friend Miles Jefferies who just our journey together of like trying to love each other, not love each other. Well not not love each other but more in a romantic sense.

Ann: Yeah.

Maurice: It's just been amazing to see both of our growth journeys through that. And I would say the biggest shoutout to all of them goes to my siblings. Mark, Moses, and Jas are the human beings that keep me so grounded and connected to the planet. I literally would not be alive without them. They . . . they show up for me in a way that is unremarkable. When my business was failing and about to close my brother, a corporate banker, transferred departments to move to Los Angeles so he could help me save my business. My sister on my show, on my set, was like my neutralizer, like she just kept me grounded and sane the whole time. She just held space for me. My brother Mark would literally give me anything. I'm like "Mark I want to do this project. I need $12,000." "When can I get it back Maurice?"

Ann: Aww. [Laughs]

(55:08)

Maurice: It's like he doesn't have that kind of money but he'll just figure it out. Yeah, I love -- I love, love, love my siblings. That is the core and root of what I call family.

Ann: Ugh. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really, truly appreciate it and I am excited to see you on the other side of this thing whenever it is.

Maurice: Yes. Same, same, same. This was such an honor. I think the work that you guys are doing -- that you ladies are doing -- is just beyond. The way that you guys communicate information and ideas is just so beautiful and thank you for including me on your amazing platform. I really appreciate that.

Ann: Ugh. An honor and a pleasure truly.

[Interview Ends]

Aminatou: Wow, Maurice, the Nick Cave of flowers. I love this.

Ann: 100 percent forever and ever. Most relevant Nick Cave, black Nick Cave. [Laughs] Yeah. Again you can find his show on Quibi. You can find him all over Instagram if you want to look at his floral art with your own eyes or look at how cute the Bloom and Plume Coffee Shop is with your own eyes. He's delightfully findable online.

Aminatou: Love it.

Ann: All right. I'll see you on the Internet and among the flowers. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I'll see you in a luxurious Internet corner. Love you boo-boo.

Ann: Love you.

Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favs. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back, leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf and you can buy our book Big Friendship anywhere you buy books. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We have editorial support from Laura Bertocci. Our producer is Jordan Bailey. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.
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