Joe Biden Problems - Part 2
5/21/20 - In the second of two parts, we discuss Tara Reade's sexual assault allegation against Joe Biden with Vox's Laura McGann who spoke with Tara when she came to her in 2019 with a different complaint about abuse of power in Biden's Senate office. Plus, how Biden makes progressives complicit in his pattern of non-consensual behavior, why you may or may not vote for him, and how we can be re-center survivors in our discourse.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Laura McGann on reporting out Tara Reade's allegations
Rebececa Traister on the Biden Trap for women politicians
Stacey Abrams' Biden endorsement
AOC's Biden comments
TRANSCRIPT: JOE BIDEN PROBLEMS - PART 2
[Ads]
(0:30)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. We're talking about Joe Biden again today. There is no rest for the weary. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Aminatou can no longer come to the phone. Goodbye.
Ann: Aminatou has left the chat. [Laughter]
[Theme Song]
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman.
Ann: Hi Aminatou Sow.
Aminatou: How's it going?
Ann: [Sighs] You know, every time I'm just like how do I answer that question? I'm not really sure how to answer it. How's it going for you?
Aminatou: I am having a really hard time but I'm also fine, you know? It's like two things can be true so it's just impossible.
Ann: Yeah. I think that's why I struggle to answer the question. I feel the same way. Yeah, and I'm sorry to tell you that we're talking about Joe Biden again today. There is no rest for the weary.
Aminatou: Aminatou can no longer come to the phone. Goodbye.
Ann: Aminatou has left the chat. [Laughter]
Aminatou: Well I am actually, you know, all jokes aside I am really excited about picking back up on the conversation that we had last week about this because it is not often that we feel strongly enough about something that we break up the conversation. Shall we get into it?
(2:12)
Ann: Let's do it. So if you did not listen to last week's episode we recommend that you go back and do that. We talked about a little bit of like a '90s Joe Biden flashback: his history with Anita Hill at the Clarence Thomas hearings, his authorship of the Violence Against Women Act and the ways he has framed that authorship in the years since, and the many photos and allegations of him inappropriately touching women in all kinds of contexts. But largely not in a kind of . . . in those cases not in an assault kind of way, in more of like a this is crossing some boundaries but it does not meet maybe a criminal or legal definition of assault. So those are the kinds of things we were talking about last week.
Aminatou: Real.
Ann: What are we talking about this week?
Aminatou: Well this week we are talking about the current reality. Both the conversation about Joe Biden specifically and the conversation about what do we want from our leaders and how do we really process what it means to live in a world where men are the default in leadership is a conversation that I think we're going to be having for our lifetimes. And so I think that all of this can be true that I'm not psyched about the person who is the Democratic -- the presumptive Democratic nominee and at the same time I would . . . it would be better for the world if this person won than if our current reality continues. And so, you know, it's an impossible kind of choice to make. It is sometimes really hard to talk about and I find myself going back-and-forth about like ugh, what do I want? Blah, blah, blah. And, you know, it's a tough pill to swallow.
(4:05)
Ann: Yeah. So first up I had a conversation with our friend Laura McGann who is the politics editor at Vox about an article that she wrote recently about her reporting to vet some allegations about Biden's behavior in the '90s. And it's kind of a complicated story so rather than try to summarize too much I think maybe we should just get into the interview with Laura and let her do it.
[Interview Starts]
Ann: Laura welcome to the podcast.
Laura: Thank you Ann. Good to be here.
Ann: So when did you first hear from Tara Reade?
Laura: Tara and I first met about a year ago in early April 2019. She gave me a call because she wanted to share a story that she felt was relevant, a story about Joe Biden that was unfolding at the time. A few weeks before she called me a number of women had stepped forward to say that Joe Biden had made them uncomfortable in ways that he had touched them mostly at public events, campaign rallies and political events. And what was interesting was that it wasn't new. Everyone in political media, including me, we were aware that Joe Biden did this and for years he had gotten a pass. And what was changing was women were confronting us in media and saying no, he shouldn't get a pass. This is inappropriate.
And so I wrote a column about that myself. I sort of apologized as a person in media who never thought to call this out before. I was embarrassed about that. I was really impressed with women who were coming forward.
(5:50)
So when I got a call from Tara Reade I was really eager to talk with her because this was such an important moment I felt in Me Too and I'm always interested in a story of what do we do with men who operate differently than the worst monsters that we've seen in this era. We know what to do with a monster, you throw them in prison, but what do you do with someone who maybe isn't acting in a criminal way? So I was interested to hear what she had to say.
And what she said to me in our first conversation and went on to tell me multiple times -- we talked many times over the course of me trying to report her story -- she told this very consistent, clear narrative to me that she didn't see this as a story of sexual misconduct that she wanted to tell me; she really wanted to talk about the effects of abuse of power by a staff that wants to protect the person at the very top. And in this case Joe Biden who was a US senator at the time.
Tara was working for him -- well, for the office -- in 1993. She was a staff assistant. And she would attend staff meetings and meetings where Joe Biden would happen to be. She said he would put his hand on her shoulder. He might touch her hair or touch her neck and it made her uncomfortable. She said it didn't feel like a -- she used the phrase sexual misconduct. She said it didn't feel like sexual misconduct but it made her uncomfortable and it made her feel like people in the meeting were looking at her maybe differently and she didn't like it. And she spoke with supervisors about how it made her uncomfortable and she would like Joe Biden to stop.
Soon after that things got uncomfortable for her in the office. She had some responsibilities stripped she told me. She felt there was an icy kind of feeling in the office that she didn't feel anything odd before. And really what she was describing, as she was alleging, is something that happens a lot in these cases where a woman speaks out -- or it can be a man as well but in the context of most of my reporting it tends to be women -- who speak up about treatment in the office and then they're retaliated against. And in this case she described what it was like to be pushed out of her job. She was in her 20s. She was very excited to have her first big job on Capitol Hill and she was pursued out.
(8:25)
So even though she did the kind of air-quote "right thing" of she spoke to her supervisor, when she felt she was being retaliated against she went to a different office in the Senate she told me and tried to file a report about how she was being treated, but ultimately she left and she quietly went back to California. It was a story to me that listening to her sounded very credible, it was consistent, and it was a story I really wanted to break. It was something I really wanted to write about because what I saw was we had seen the story of Joe Biden playing out as even in the most robust coverage of women stepping forward there was a sense of well none of these women worked for him. They weren't directly connected to him. It's, you know, the question of is it harassment if it's a stranger sort of question.
Ann: Right. Like not only is it not criminal but is it even an HR problem?
Laura: Right. If a total stranger puts his hand on your shoulder so what? And actually that's a whole other conversation where I will tell you so what and why that's a problem.
Ann: [Laughs]
Laura: Anyway that's a whole other conversation.
Ann: It is but I also want to call back to a conversation that we had last week on the show which is you situated this in 1992/1993 is that right?
Laura: Yes.
Ann: And that is a time in-between the Clarence Thomas hearings and the passage of the Violence Against Women Act. And so there is really something going on I think as well with what the narrative is with Joe Biden and women at that time. You know, it's really not hard to see how his staff would be very motivated to quash a story like this in any time but especially in this moment. It's just hard not to look back and see those dates and think about that as well.
(10:15)
Laura: I guess that is an interesting point that I hadn't really thought about it. I guess I was thinking about Congress as an institution and how we'd seen this happen again and again where offices act like fiefdoms to this day and there's a lot of power decentralized into these little nooks across Capitol Hill. There was very little accountability and where do you go if you're being victimized? Where do you go if you have a problem? Of course if you go to the Chief of Staff in the office that person reports to the senator. They're probably good friends. There's not much recourse. So I was looking at it through that lens but it is a good point about thinking about Joe Biden and his trajectory and his history with women that this was that moment.
Ann: So what happened then after you had this conversation with Tara on the phone last spring?
Laura: So after our first conversation she suggested I talk with a friend of hers who was essentially her core lady friend of 1992/1993. They're still good friends today. So I called her friend and her friend said that they talked about it at the time and you can imagine they're women in their 20s in their first kind of jobs in politics and really real jobs in their professional careers. They were grappling with what to do and how to think about this behavior. And what she described to me was a very similar narrative about this idea of abuse of power. To paraphrase her she was saying that Joe Biden would touch her on the shoulder or touch her hair but it was always those kinds of touches that -- the kind of oh, did you interpret it that way? That's not what I meant. The kind of . . . it's on this line of spectrum of behavior of not fully sexual misconduct but kind of weird. And she said she thought it was creepy that he was doing this kind of stuff in front of people.
(12:15)
So her friends seemed very credible to me as well. They'd known each other a long time and they had these similar stories. That night after I talked to Tara and her friend Tara followed up and sent me a personal essay that she'd written about how she thought about these issues and thought about this part of her life. She ended up publishing a version of it in her local paper. She really was focused on the idea of an office protecting somebody and how in this case it wasn't I shouldn't say even but it wasn't sexual misconduct and they still -- the power structure was such that he was much more important. So it was more important to somebody in an office to protect the senator from something as simple as saying to him "Hey, please stop touching the staff assistant at meetings. It makes me uncomfortable." Like that feels like a very simple conversation to have but . . .
Ann: 101 right? [Laughter]
Laura: But, you know, I'm a manager. I run a team. Look, if someone said to me "Hey, so-and-so is making me feel uncomfortable by X," and I don't even care what X is, I'd take the person aside and say "Hey, can you please stop that?" And the person I'd say, 99 percent of the time, would say "Oh wow, of course." It doesn't seem . . . it seems very obvious.
But in this case what she was exploring was this question of power is more important than one person and so if it meant pushing out this young woman with high hopes about having a political career and a life in public service so be it. It struck me as important because unfortunately it is very common and I thought it was an important -- this is an important story to tell about experiences of women who get pushed out of their jobs and we need smart people in these important jobs. We're pushing out -- we're losing. It's what they're losing but it's also what we're all losing when we're limiting who contributes in society. I get very worked up about it.
(14:20)
And so I was very eager to tell her story. I started from the premise that a lot of what she was saying checked out. She worked for Joe Biden at the time. She was who she said she was. I had a lot of reason to believe her so I got started. I thought this is worth the investment of my time to check it out. And unfortunately a couple of things happened. 1) She was talking to quite a few reporters at the time, it wasn't just me. She also was talking to the New York Times which she told me about. She was talking to the Associated Press and she was talking to a reporter -- a local reporter. And Tara was very eager to get her story out there. She made the decision to do it and she wanted it done. She wanted it over with. The other paper published very quickly. They published a short item with her say and her friend but they didn't speak to the Biden campaign. They didn't have any voices from the time and really the story sort of flopped at that point. She was also made fun of on Twitter for some past essays she'd written, which some real talk if you're going to write a love poem about Vladimir Putin it's going to come up. The Internet will find it.
So in any case I did continue to report for a few more weeks just to see if I could flesh out the story any more. And just to explain what I mean by that on the one hand I had her friend who told me -- she was talking about this at the time. That is one type of corroboration for a reporter for a story of okay, there's somebody who's talking about a thing that happened to them at the time. The harder part of the story really for me to iron out was essentially a wrongful firing story and to do that I needed somebody with direct knowledge of the decisions that were being made in the office.
(16:10)
And so I worked with her to try to get a document that she said she filed at the time and I thought that would certainly be the type of thing that would help because it would show that she complained and she left there shortly after and that's very useful to a reporter. I couldn't get that document. We tried. I tried various offices. We really tried great lengths. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist or something nefarious happened or she didn't file it. Just it was a document from 1993 and there wasn't much procedure at the time so I wasn't that surprised we couldn't track it down.
The other issue was it's from 1993 and she said to me that she spoke with a number of friends in other offices about her problems and she was trying to get some help. There were staffers from other offices who told their bosses and tried to help her. And so she couldn't remember the names of any of these people that she had spoken to at the time. She had a couple of nicknames for people but she just couldn't remember anyone's name so I basically created a list of over 100 people. I'd done research to try to find people who would fit the descriptions of who she was talking about. I made a lot of calls to try to find people. We went through the list of this dozens and dozens of people and could never identify any of the people she remembered.
And I didn't take that to mean she wasn't telling the truth; I just think that there were at any given time a lot of people work in Capitol Hill. It's hard to go back in time and find people who might've only been there for a short period of time. And so I had nothing to support the wrongful firing in terms of reporting and I decided at that point based on what I had to not publish her story. So by the end -- sort of end of April or so that's where my time with Tara Reade ended. We talked a lot during that time period. She worked with me to try to get sources and I had to just be honest with her that unless the document appears or unless I hear back from somebody from one of these feelers I put out I really can't move forward with the story as I had it.
(18:30)
Ann: And I would love to take a pause here and talk a little bit about that standard that you're operating under at this point for how do you decide whether to publish a story like Tara's? And, you know, I know that this case in particular I've seen countless tweets from people saying like "Well I guess believe women doesn't apply if it's inconvenient." You know, from all sides sort of saying that this is somehow proof that women don't actually deserve to just be believed straight up. There is something that is beyond that. And I would love your thoughts on that, on that phrase and how you thought about it at this stage in your reporting.
Laura: I have a bit of luxury at Vox that I have -- we have more of a kind of magazine sensibility a bit and so we're allowed to speak with some . . . we're allowed to be a little more transparent than other places. The piece that I ended up writing recently about all this, I said I found her credible. I did. And I wanted -- I'd say even more so than I believed her, I think the key thing is I wanted to believe her because I do think women by and large don't make this stuff up. It doesn't do you any good. There's no upside to putting yourself out there and saying this kind of thing. So when there's great personal cost coming with something like this it just . . . I tend to start from a point of okay, if you're who you say you are and you did work in the office at the time? I mean obviously if it turned out she didn't work for Joe Biden it's like well, okay, that's different. But it lined up and I feel like if I had met her as a friend, if we were friends and she had told me this story in 2019 and we're going to get into what she's now saying in 2020. But if she told me a story like this as a good friend I would believe her. 100 percent I would believe her.
(20:35)
But she and I were meeting in a different context of I'm a reporter and she's a source and she had come to me not to tell me privately but she wanted to tell the world her story. And the standard for that is the story has to stand up on really two legs, three legs, a number of legs. People want to look at the work and know why they should believe it. You know, I have to show my work of why I think this is true or why I think it's likely true or worth their time to consider. And when most of these Me Too stories -- they require both corroboration from people at the time or people who maybe women spoke to over the years. When some of these stories, whether . . . like when it gets into wrongful firing we saw this in media. We saw it at Fox News. We've seen it in other places. You have to have also that other piece of something that shows that this person wasn't fired for some other reason or didn't quit their job for some other reason. You need to be able to show that to the audience so the audience understands why I believe this person.
(21:50)
And I think that's something that's maybe not as obvious to people who weren't following these stories closely, just how richly reported they are. The ones that really hold men accountable are richly reported and really strong because men have been getting away with this kind of stuff for millennia and it's fairly recent that men are being held to account. And when you're trying to take something on as strong as that you have to go in bulletproof. That's what it takes.
And so my point-of-view is if I'm going to run a story that's going to be attacked, that's going to be viewed as political where the source's personal history and personal integrity is going to be attacked, regardless it's going to be attacked, it has to be as strong as it can. And I didn't feel like looking at what I had which was her word and the word of a single friend, I didn't think it was going to hold up. And so I decided not to run it.
Ann: Well and I wanted to ask you about that in particular because I think one thing that has happened at this stage in the way we talk about Me Too stories is that people who are on the outside looking in have a tendency to collapse personal belief in the way you describe hearing a story like Tara's as a friend from maybe a journalistic standard of proof to a courtroom standard of proof. These are all different things and I think there's a real tendency right now to kind of say oh, well if we believe women then we throw all men in jail immediately or something super dramatic like that. Or even something like oh, if you really believe women you would print whatever you believe in your heart that is true when they talk to you. And actually it is we're talking about a lot of different venues for either seeking justice or feeling heard or giving support and they are not all co-equal. I really think that your piece brought that out for me in a new way so thank you for going into some depth about how you pulled those pieces apart for yourself.
(24:00)
Laura: Well I think that's important and it's what context am I believing a woman? It's tough. I think if I fast-forward now to 2020 and Tara Reade is back in the news. She went on a podcast in March and it was during the throes of the heated primary between Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders so there was a new political context playing out. She steps forward and says on the Katie Halper podcast that not only was she pushed out of Joe Biden's office for telling the staff she's uncomfortable but in addition Joe Biden sexually assaulted her in a hallway in the senate at the same time. She describes a very serious incident, a very serious sexual assault which I feel comfortable . . . it falls under the umbrella of rape. Just to make clear to people that this is a different type of accusation.
She describes it on a podcast. The podcast show itself, it's hosted by a radio personality more so than a journalistic show. So she speaks out on this show and she follows up with the website The Intercept which is also more of a pro-Bernie Sanders/anti-Joe Biden publication. So she's now come out on these two different platforms making this accusation she didn't raise a year ago. And at the same time she herself has gone on a political journey and she's now herself an ardent Bernie Sanders supporter.
Ann: Oof.
(25:45)
Laura: Yes. So I look at this and I think wow, okay, I just needed to gather myself and I went and actually had to get special permission to go into the Vox office which has been shut down to get my notes. I looked at what she said to me at the time and I re-read the essay that she sent me and she actually sent me an additional essay a few days later. Reading those essays and reading my notes I followed up with her because this is again where the question of believing a woman began to I would say torment me in the moment. And I don't want to sound that my experience here is nothing like the torment of dealing with sexual assault. I'm talking about this in the sense of a reporter who cares about these issues grappling with how to do my job well. That was what I was struggling with.
And so I talked to Tara again. I talked to her friend again and actually Tara and I ended up talking for quite a long time over the course of a week. Just following up with her and trying to understand how she went from telling a story to me about she really highlighted that it was not about sexual misconduct to a story that includes this really serious sexual assault.
And she said that she wasn't ready to come forward a year ago. And again if I were her friend and she told me over the course of a year a story that revealed itself over a course of a year I would understand if a friend told me her story that way. I wouldn't bat an idea because I think it's difficult to tell personal stories, especially traumatic stories, in necessarily a linear way or a way where you feel comfortable. It wouldn't give me pause.
But as a journalist I'm looking at what she told me a year ago in which she asserted this wasn't sexual misconduct and now she's adding in this additional accusation which it's not just an addition really, it was the frame of the story has now changed. It is a story of sexual misconduct. And one of the things that she said on the show and she was trying to explain why she's speaking now about this and didn't in 2019 is she said the core reason for her was the media didn't want to hear a story of sexual misconduct. They didn't want to her about a sexual assault and that reporters were pushing for a different narrative.
(28:15)
And I asked her about this. I said, you know, when you called me one of the first things you said is you wanted me to understand this as not a story of sexual misconduct. And you sent me an essay after we spoke saying this is not sexual misconduct then you sent me a second essay saying this is not sexual misconduct. Your friend told me this is not sexual misconduct. Both of you exonerated Biden proactively saying he didn't do these types of things to you. Why would you say it was the media?
She really -- she didn't have an answer per se. She said it felt collective to her, that there was this collective feeling she had. And I spoke to her friend as well again on the same question and she said to me, you know, the reason she didn't tell me about the assault last year was it's her friend's story to tell and she was not going to go beyond what her friend felt comfortable letting her share. And they had had many conversations about it a year ago and they've had many conversations since where Tara said "I want you to share this part."
And again I said to Tara's friend I understand that but it wasn't that you left out a piece of the story, it's that you presented a case to me that has fundamentally changed. That you had said to me specifically Joe Biden never tried to kiss her. Joe Biden never touched her that way or he never did anything to her privately. It was all in front of people.
(29:55)
And I then found myself in this place as a reporter concerned that the story had changed, and even as a person trying to imagine being that friend it would be very hard for me personally to say to somebody so-and-so did not do X to my friend when I knew he had. I would be hard-pressed I think to do that. So I was puzzled. I really grappled with it. I also think the person I was talking to, the person on the other end of the phone, she sounds sincere as she's telling me this and I didn't know how to balance that.
At the same time other sources -- I think anyone who's been following this story is now wondering well what about her brother and what about the neighbor that has come out? So her brother has now spoken to the media and he first said that she told him she was having trouble in Biden's office at the time. A few days later he sent the Washington Post a text message following up and saying actually I also know that Biden had assaulted her in some way. And I asked her well why didn't you mention that you had told your brother about this to me last year? And she didn't really have an answer. You know, she didn't mention her brother to me. She didn't mention this neighbor who has now stepped forward to talk about how she talked to Tara Reade about the sexual assault and the harassment in 1996.
And she said well I didn't know that that would be a relevant source because I told her in 1996 and in a way that's true. I kind of thought well maybe she misunderstood what I was looking for and, you know, that I can't expect a normal person living her normal life to know what a reporter needs and what air-quote "counts" as corroboration or what's helpful. But then I saw in another article some reporters at the Associated Press had asked her the same question of why didn't you tell us about these other sources and she declined to comment.
(32:00)
So at the same time in her favor there was a tape that came out of her mother who she told me her mother knew about this but her mother was since deceased and so I wasn't able obviously to talk to her mother. There was a tape of her mother on Larry King calling in and it suggests that she knew her daughter was struggling in Joe Biden's office. It did not corroborate the sexual assault but clearly her mother was concerned about her, about something going on.
And so I was weighing all of this. What do I make of this when a source changes her story, when sources that she didn't tell me about a year ago appear? And at the same time do I really believe that three people would step forward and lie for someone? It's hard to imagine that. I don't think people generally lie about these issues. So what I tried to write in my piece was a look at all of this of how what I know about the story, what I learned last year, and how I'm thinking about it now which is that in the Me Too era there are stories that could very well be true but maybe we can't tell them because we don't have what we need to tell them and that's heartbreaking. That's my fear is that -- is to ever end up in a situation like that where someone's story doesn't get to be told because I feel like I can't.
But at the same time I certainly don't want to tell a story that isn't true. That's wrong. And so I just wanted to try to help people understand why this story feels so confusing and if it feels strange or hard to grapple with it's because it is a really difficult story. So that's really what I was trying to do and I hope it was helpful for somebody out there.
(34:05)
Ann: It was helpful for me, I'll tell you that, one person. So yeah, I really appreciate it. I don't think I have any other questions for you unless you can think of a big part of this that we missed.
Laura: One thing I will say that I think is important, a lot of people criticized me for taking on the story in a big day and profiling essentially Tara Reade in the story. And the question was what about Trump? People who maybe believe Tara Reade are saying well Trump has 20 women accusing him of this stuff and why are we giving as much weight to one accusation as to so many? And I actually was annoyed at first as a reporter like hmm, well my story's not about that so leave me alone. Then the more I thought about it the more I thought that is totally right, why are we giving this so much attention right now and not Donald Trump? It made me think about Me Too in another way which is that the media has a bias towards things that are new and Tara Reade's story is new and I'm thinking a lot about how do I continue to write about Donald Trump right now? Because he has a way of just being shameless and so stories go away and the press covers them then he stops responding and says all these women are liars and we move on. I'm really . . .
Ann: Right. If none of his reporters care that he's a rapist why would any of the rest of us care? We don't support him anyway. That's kind of the attitude I think.
Laura: I think so. And it's sort of like well we covered that. Yeah, we covered those -- yeah, we did that a few years ago. We talked about that time he probably raped somebody. We're onto the next thing. So I just -- that's something I actually think is a fair criticism and I'm glad that it was raised because that's something I'm thinking about is how do we continue as a journalist to write about these issues even when they're not new? You know, it's just as relevant. Donald Trump's history is just as relevant today as it was yesterday as it was three years ago even though we aren't just learning it for the first time. That's just something I think about. And I think podcasts are good because we have these conversations even when things aren't brand new so I'm appreciative that you're having me on and talking about them.
Ann: Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on to talk us through your reporting and the way you've grappled with this because I think it is really helpful and informative for me so thanks Laura.
Laura: Aww, thanks Ann. Thank you.
[Interview Ends]
(36:35)
Aminatou: Laura McGann, always with accurate facts and so smart and so fair.
Ann: Yeah and I really appreciate her transparency in writing this kind of meta article about why we aren't reading a different kind of article from her about this scenario. Like I found it just so helpful for her to illuminate some of these distinctions.
Aminatou: Right. It's like thank you for showing us your work, a thing you don't always get to see when you read the news.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Let's take a break.
[Ads]
(39:15)
Ann: Okay, so where does this leave us with Joe Biden?
Aminatou: It leaves me with the truth that I can both be critical of Joe Biden and not happy about the fact that this is the person that should beat Trump and also be able to have a conversation where I can say that I don't like Joe Biden but it doesn't mean that I want Donald Trump to be president, you know? Like all of those things can be true.
Ann: Yeah. Tarana Burke had a series of tweets about this which I don't know if you saw them but I think they really were very clarifying to me about what my expectations would be. You know, one of them, one of her tweets -- I mean it's a long series that we'll link to that I think it's worth reading all of them -- but she points out "Many of you are only interested in this story because you are entertained by the trauma of others or because it has the potential to be politically expedient with no real regard for the survivor." Like I think that is a point well-taken in terms of the conversation that's unfolding. And then she also has a point about the expectations of Joe Biden where she says "At minimum acknowledging that his demonstrated learning curve around boundaries with women at the very least left him open to the plausibility of these claims. No matter what you believe we are allowed to expect more of the person running for US president."
And for me that's what it really comes down to is how are you really reckoning with the behavior that you have fully admitted to and been documented doing? And your actions towards that sort of behavior tell me a lot about your behavior in other contexts frankly.
Aminatou: I mean that, wow, say it louder for the people in the back. That's so real. [Laughs] You know I think a thing that is also just hard for -- I will only speak about myself because I know . . . I know all the places that I struggle with this conversation is that there is, for me, there is a part where I get so angry that men with this kind of behavior make us all complicit, you know? Joe Biden has the luxury of saying like "I'm just a hugger" or whatever because in his reality that is what a good person does. In my reality and in my own code of conduct and ethics a good person is not someone who violates someone's consent. And the fact that I have to hold my nose and truly be complicit in a system in which survivors are routinely made to question their own sanity and their own integrity is -- and also are just made to feel unsafe -- is really, really, really painful for me. I don't like that.
(42:00)
Ann: Yeah. And I do think you're right about this complicity point wherein I feel that so strongly too, the sense that even if we're only looking at behaviors that he has fully admitted to I hate the idea that my vote is somehow an endorsement that it's okay to be kind of willfully ignorant of power dynamics and grope women in public places. Like that's truly there is a part of me that is like well when I check his name I am voting for that. I am voting to say no big deal. And I know that's not how our system works. Like I know that's not really what I'm doing. I'm going to vote for Joe Biden obviously -- or maybe that wasn't obvious -- but I do hear you on that complicity front of like it is the vote is going to be loaded with that knowledge for me.
Aminatou: Right. And at the same time I just wish that when we have this conversation with people who say that they're progressive or even if they just say they're Democrats or whatever that when we have this conversation we also don't devolve into a binary of either you're voting for him because you think he's amazing or you are withholding your . . . you are not voting for him because you want the country to go to hell, you know? I think that it's incredibly difficult. If there are people who are Democrats who are not happy to vote for Joe Biden because they don't want to compromise their ethics or they just can't be bothered to support him that's not my problem. It's not that person's problem. That's Joe Biden's problem, you know? You do need to be above reproach.
And I'm feeling like the Internet progressives are having a lot of conversations that are not productive because they don't account for the fact that everyone is right. If you want to vote for him and you're happy to do it good for you. If you vote for him and you hold your nose good for you. If you say that you're not going to vote for him also that is a very valid choice. We can't just bully each other into this very -- into making decisions without fully examining what it means for all of us to again be complicit in this kind of system.
(44:15)
Ann: Yeah. And I mean as Laura was saying the person who is currently in the White House is absolutely disgraceful, horrible. I know you read Rebecca Traister on the kind of trap for women who are likely to be in Biden's voting base but the say she phrased it is something that I've been thinking about a lot which is -- I'm just going to read you this little passage. So first of all she explains how terrible Trump is which we know. Then she says "In the fight to prevent this Biden and his campaign will be calling on women, especially the women who have challenged him in the past including on feminist grounds to help him build support by rallying other women around him. That rallying will now have to entail somehow papering over the disgust and dismay provoked by multiple allegations of inappropriate touching and alleged assault made against yet another would-be president."
I just -- I feel like this really crystalizes it. The request is if you want to get rid of this person who is objectively terrible for your existence and your continued existence in this country you have to kind of swallow it. You just have to ignore this big, giant shit sandwich that we're serving you.
Aminatou: God, we're seeing that same machinery is at work right? The Biden campaign announced pretty early on that he was 100 percent going to pick a woman as his VP. Sounds great. I'm like I would love a woman vice president, like shake things up. And at the same time I'm like wow, what a beautiful trap to lay for everyone. You are going to force people to carry water for you. And that's exactly what's going on, it's women who are making their case to be vice president are all women who are now publicly forced to defend him and I have to say that it's been really disappointing to watch that news cycle.
(46:05)
Ann: Yeah, because I think my expectation of all politicians who are supporting him whether or not they're a woman who's in the running to be his vice president or regardless of their gender, I really expect in the endorsement some acknowledgment of the difficulty here at reconciling the fact that his behavior is not amazing. Like sorry. Like recognizing what is fully known about his record. And I mean that in terms of everything we talked about last week and not just about these more serious assault allegations. I really would like to see everyone who's endorsing him, Stacey Abrams, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, Michelle Obama, Barack Obama. I want to see all those people acknowledge this reality when they say "And yeah I still really want this person to be president over Donald Trump." Is that too much to ask that we just have that acknowledgment?
Aminatou: Ann it turns out that it is too much to ask because our politicians like to speak to us like we're children, you know? Like the patrician archetype of president. If we can dismantle that lie in the next coming years that would make me really happy. It truly is -- it is so frustrating to have grownups talk to other grownups like we're idiots. No, nothing would make me happier than a VP pick or like everyone who's endorsing Biden, all of them saying "Hey, this guy needs to be president. I don't like what he's doing but this is the best that we have."
There's a world in which to me I was like that kind of honesty actually turns out way more people to vote than not because we're all on the same page about what's going on here and it's not infantilizing. And I think also part of my frustration about it is that you know, like remember the conversation on tour that we'd talk about this, like running for president is actually incredibly corny, you know? And it's both corny and also I am reminded every time that I should never let my guard down about people who seek this kind of power because they will 1,000 percent disappoint you. That's the only thing that is clear here.
(48:20)
The way that the game of politics butts up against the expectation of elections means that you will 1,000 percent be disappointed. They are trying to appeal to as many people as possible. It is also true that for anyone who wants power, like any kind of power, whether you are trying to be the president of your high school thing or you are trying to be the president of the United States, that is an impulse that honestly should be deeply examined and it's an impulse that should be deeply distrusted. We need people to be leaders but also people are human.
And so I think part of my frustration is that there are a lot of politicians that I get that from. I'm like okay, I don't trust this guy but we're doing this. I don't trust this person but we're doing this. And then every once in a while your heart gets broken all over again. And for me that was Stacey Abrams. Hearing her say -- watching her really minimize what Joe Biden has said and then imply that actually women would be really excited to support Joe Biden, that was . . . you know, it's not even that I'm disappointed in her; I was disappointed in myself because I was like wow, I . . . clown makeup, you know what I mean? Like I've been . . .
Ann: You forgot she was a politician? [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, I forgot she was a politician. I forgot she was a politician which is so nuts because I'm like I have interviewed this person, I read up about her. And I share this mostly -- it's not . . . I'm talking about this not because of my disappointment in Stacey Abrams specifically about this thing. It's truly that I let my guard down, you know? And it's the seduction of oh, this person seems like they are different than the regular politician and the truth is I feel like the mayor of Boo-Boo The Foolville. [Laughter] Like with my . . .
Ann: As a resident I applaud you my mayor, yeah.
(50:15)
Aminatou: [Laughs] But it's truly -- you know, and I'm not saying this to harp on Stacey Abrams the person. It's like all of these women who are running for VP, they're being challenged in the same way. It's like the same questions are being asked of Kamala Harris. The same question is being asked of Gretchen Whitmer. There's not a way to win which is what Rebecca's piece is all about. It's a trap. And at the same time I am committed to wanting people in office who are not just all white and who are not just old white guys but even people who are not old white guys are not people that you should just completely trust because they seem that they're different.
Ann: Yeah. And that's kind of my point about wishing that this was just acknowledged in some of these statements. You know, when AOC who was talking about this who I think is actually in this instance the model for what I want to see is not someone who has said it's no big deal or women should be thrilled to vote for him. But what she said was I think it's legitimate to talk about these things. She said if what we want is integrity -- I'm kind of paraphrasing here -- if we want to have the integrity of our beliefs we have to have an inconvenient and difficult conversation. You know, this is a replay of a lot of the Al Franken stuff. It brings up for me a lot of the feelings I have around Katie Hill where that seat just went to a Republican. And when I saw the news all I felt was this rage towards her, like why did you blow with your sexual misconduct, why did you blow all of this labor that went into this?
(51:48)
And that's kind of how I also feel is it is an inconvenience that is worth addressing because the consequences are also great of not addressing it. It's also hard to really separate from personal emotions about this issue. You know, like everything about this is -- I hesitate to use a word like triggering but it really is so dependent on your personal experience I think, like where and how you come down on the necessity of being open about what this choice really means and what you're really being asked to do when you're being asked to support Joe Biden.
Aminatou: Right. Because I think that for me ultimately it's, you know, more than just the presidency being at stake it's just so clear to me from the way that we deal with all these issues that the people who consistently lose over and over and over again are survivors. You know? Like we create really untenable -- we create untenable and unsafe situations for people. We create a situation in which we are by our actions and by our words are telling people their lived experiences do not matter. And we do it in a way that, you know, it's just sport. It just becomes sport.
And so for me when I want more from the Democratic nominee for president it's because I really believe we do not have a leg to stand on if we don't clean up our own house. It is hard to look at Trump and the many, many, many allegations against him and his entire record of clear misogyny and to say well this is the best that we can do. Our player, also dirty hands. That's not great.
Ann: Right. Settling for not quite as bad essentially. Yeah, and I think your point is really well-founded in terms of re-centering this conversation on survivors and how they are left to feel when this is not discussed with openness and integrity. This is why we had that long conversation about Biden and Anita Hill and the way Biden talks about the Violence Against Women Act and that sense that these talking points are not actually directed at people who have firsthand experienced these things; these talking points are directed at people who are very far removed. And I think that has really come home to roost for me not just in his statements about this but in the statements of people who want us to support him.
(54:15)
Aminatou: [Sighs] Boo-boo the Foolville, population two. What are you going to do?
Ann: And I will also say that I still want him to be president. I mean one reason why -- you know, you said earlier how rare it is for us to devote two episodes to something but I think for me that's kind of what it is. I want to be able to say if I am encouraging people to get out to vote for this man, which I will, like I will tell you right now, I need to also have something to show for the fact that we are open to discussing the complication involved in that. You know what I mean? I need to participate in this conversation with you about this so thank you in order for me to feel good about saying vote for this guy. I truly -- that is the reconciliation I have to do and I just cannot understand politicians who have made another choice.
Aminatou: Right. And for me by the same token it's like if you are, you know, if you are a survivor or if you're a marginalized person who is very much like actually I do not want to support this person and it's really hard for me and you do not want to participate in the electoral process that's also a conversation that I'm open to having because I think I'm going to get out the vote for this person but I don't like it at all is . . . I want to hear that from everyone who I know who is supporting him, you know? Because I think that that's the only thing that'll make it better is to be really honest about what's going on instead of sweeping it under the rug and saying well, you know, Trump is just so bad that this is the best that we have. It's like hmm, our star player's not so great.
Ann: Right.
(56:00)
Aminatou: It's not like the conversations that I have with strangers about politics. It truly is the way that we talk to each other about our choices and -- because it's hard. It's so hard to feel that your lived experience is minimized. It is devastating. But also to understand that every way that we live life in America just hangs in the balance and that there are so many issues that are affected by the outcome of who wins this election is also something that, you know, I'm not blind to that but I just wish that we find really healthy and productive ways to have these conversations.
Ann: Right. And also have them in ways that are again re-centering survivors and their experience of this because one thing that really made me feel like I want to talk about this with you is, you know, neither of us are like hardcore Bernard Bros, you know what I mean? We are not having this conversation from a point of Tara Reade's story is supporting a narrative we had about the Democratic Party. You know what I mean? There are all these layers of who is incentivized to care about a story like this and I think it actually requires work in this moment to continually say what I care about is not just this specific survivor in question but all survivors who are watching and listening to this conversation play out and not because of some political goal I have or don't have but because the goal is actually to support survivors. It's a separate thing that is honestly bigger than the presidential election and I can't believe I'm saying that because we all know this is a huge, huge, huge election.
(57:40)
Aminatou: Yeah. My kingdom for a woman VP who will say this guy sucks but I have to do this job. Like I would die to hear that.
Ann: Yeah, or not even -- yes, or some version. Some version of that that feels slightly more palatable of like this guy's behavior really sucks and I am going to take the loss, really try to talk to him about the way he addresses these issues, and that's something I'm going to do from the inside but with the knowledge of all of this context. It's like wow, wouldn't that feel amazing? That's the kind of shit sandwich I think someone's going to have to eat, right? Like the work on the inside. It's less about the how do you talk positively on the outside but, you know, I would consider eating that shit sandwich myself right? How do we work with the levers of power that are at our disposal right now which are, you know, wholly inadequate?
(58:35)
Aminatou: I have never been happier not to be a United States citizen who cannot vote so thanks for making the hard decisions for both of us.
Ann: Okay, well that remains the United States of America's loss, I'm sorry. [Laughter] Like fully. I don't actually feel better when you say that but I hear you and I'm happy that you can take solace in that.
Aminatou: I told you this on the phone. I'm going to be the Barack Obama of this election, when everyone is like -- I'm like I did not vote to authorize that . . . [Laughter] That's going to be me. Like every time, if Joe Biden wins, every single day I'm going to remind you I did not vote to authorize Joe Biden here.
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: You know, it's just -- yeah, it's hard. It's just all of it. All of it is really hard but also to quote Glennon Doyle we can do hard things.
Ann: We can. At least we can keep trying to do them the hard way which is also the right way.
Aminatou: I'll see you at the election.
Ann: Oh my god, I will see you far before that on the Internet. [Laughter] And also on election day ideally.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favs. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back, leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf and you can buy our book Big Friendship anywhere you buy books. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We have editorial support from Laura Bertocci. Our producer is Jordan Bailey. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.