Love is Blind
2/28/20 - The Netflix phenomenon that proves heterosexual people are probably not okay.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: LOVE IS BLIND
[Ads]
(0:52)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. Ugh, on this week's agenda love is blind and that is it.
Aminatou: Wow, wow, wow.
[Theme Song]
Ann: How're you doing over there?
Aminatou: I am doing great. I'm feeling a little frazzled but other than that, you know, just trying to hang in.
Ann: I hear that. I am in the midst of an excavation project in my home office. I realized that I have this behavior where I like things to look really clean so I -- if something doesn't have a space I will shove it in a weird corner and it ends up in me building my own beaver dam around myself where every open space behind a cabinet or under something is stuffed full of things that I actually probably should've thrown away. So I am ripping everything up out of my office and giving it all a home and it feels good.
(2:18)
Aminatou: I love that. I forgot my coat on a plane.
Ann: [Gasps]
Aminatou: And I'm going through this very emotional journey because it truly is a coat that cost like five euros. I got it at a thrift -- it was some sort of thrift estate sale situation.
Ann: Is this the navy one?
Aminatou: Yes it's the navy one.
Ann: No!
Aminatou: It has such a sentimental value.
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: And I'm just hoping that the lost and found gods smile on me. All of my mood today is subdued because of that. I'm truly shook that losing something so casual like that can make me feel this way.
Ann: Ugh, I 100 percent relate to that and also it's why I love secondhand things in general is they're irreplaceable and so when you lose one . . . god, I lost this scarf I used to wear all the time probably more than a decade ago. I left it in a bar that I will not name in San Francisco and haven't seen it since.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And I still -- I mean, look, it definitely would've been retired from my wardrobe by now anyway but I lost it at the peak of my obsession with it which I feel like is you and this coat right now.
Aminatou: I know, it's me and this coat. We didn't have enough time together.
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: Also Delta Airlines please return my property or I will be very sad. I like cried at the airport trying to file this claim.
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: A lot of airport employees watched me be like menopausal tears trying to retrieve my property so shout-out to menopause.
Ann: Slash a woman who carefully selects the objects in her life and does not want to lose them. I mean ugh, I'm sorry.
Aminatou: So that's the low-light. But, you know, there's some highlights. It's cool.
Ann: Okay, all right, give me a highlight.
(4:00)
Aminatou: Well a highlight of my life right now honestly is watching this show on Netflix called Love is Blind. You know me, Ann, much like I don't -- I read mostly non-fiction and I can't handle fiction, it's the same thing with TV. Reality TV and documentaries is where all of my attention goes. I truly thought that nothing on TV could astonish me anymore and consider me astonished.
Ann: Okay, well I'm about to astonish you again because you know how I am never the first person -- I never watch something at the time everyone else is watching it. I'm always like six years late. I too am watching Love is Blind, can you believe it?
Aminatou: Oh my goodness! Look at god. Look at god.
Ann: How do you think I am sorting all this stuff in my office? The answer is the laptop is precariously balanced on a pile while I'm doing the hard work.
Aminatou: Ann, this is momentous. I haven't even texted you about this because I just assumed you wouldn't have been watching it.
Ann: And it's a fair assumption like normally, but yeah, I am . . . I'm six episodes deep which I don't know how close that is to current.
Aminatou: That's fine. I believe we're nine episodes in but four episodes is one episode so you're literally one episode behind me. We're fine.
Ann: It is truly a disorienting streaming experience where I'm like how long has this episode been going on? [Laughs]
Aminatou: Okay, so let's recap for the people who are not watching at home. Love is Blind is basically a reality TV show that says that it's some kind of scientific experiment. It is hosted by Nick Lachey, LOL. Every time Nick Lachey comes on the screen I scream "Nick Lachey!" And whenever Vanessa Lachey comes on the screen I scream "Why did you change your name to his last name?" But that's a different conversation.
Ann: Was she a star in her own right before they got married? I don't know her.
(5:45)
Aminatou: Oh my gosh, she was 100 percent a star in her own right. Every . . . it's just like it's wild. So Vanessa Minnillo is -- like she's a beauty queen, she was a fashion model, she hosted TV, she was acting, but you probably know her from being Miss Teen USA 1998 and she was also like a correspondent for Entertainment Tonight. She also hosted TRL. I know way too much about this so I'm going to walk it back. Let's focus on the TV show.
Ann: Okay, wait, Vanessa Minnillo, not Milano. Like not to be confused with . . . [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yes. Not -- not Vanessa Milano, the cookie. [Laughter] I hate you. Vanessa Lachey. You know how I feel about people who change their last names but we can do a whole show about that next week because people have already tried to cancel me for this opinion on the Internet.
Ann: Okay.
Aminatou: But back to Love is Blind, the task at hand. So it's a dating reality TV show where the premise is people at first -- they don't get to see each other and they get to talk. How does that make love grow? So love is blind, LOL. And Vanessa and Nick Lachey won't stop saying "Is love blind?" And you're like that is not how the scientific concept of that works but I'm going to let you out of it.
Ann: And also this is -- you can almost hear the pitch meeting of this show that's like "In an age of Tinder and seeing someone's photo before you ever learn anything else about them, this show . . ."
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: You know, you can hear how they think this is extremely radical.
Aminatou: Ann, I don't know how to tell you this. It is kind of radical but we're going to get there.
Ann: Not in the execution. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Well of course not. Nothing's radical in execution. Also we are going to talk about how it's not radical. It's very -- it's like other cultures do this. But, you know, so you have these contestants who are all conventionally attractive people, and to be clear actually they're not conventionally attractive people; they're all hot. Like I . . . it took me three episodes to realize that everyone was hot because I was so focused on another kind of madness about the show that that had not registered for me yet because a show like this is radical if everyone looks a little bit different. But you're like oh, everyone's hot and everyone conveniently lives in the same city so the parameters are already narrowed down to what we're doing.
(8:05)
Everyone has a . . . if you watch The Bachelor or The Bachelorette you know the job titles are always the best part of the show. This also does not disappoint. Everyone is like a content creator or a business owner or a regional manager or one guy's chyron just says sales.
Ann: [Laughs] I'm going to start referring to myself as a regional manager, just . . .
Aminatou: You know, literally could be anywhere. And all of these people are -- so the men and the women are in two separate quarters, so da-da, the show is literally about the fact that heterosexual people are not okay and they need so much help. So men and women are segregated and then they get to go into these upholstered pods and then they date like through a frosted wall basically.
Ann: Can I have a pause here for a word about the pods?
Aminatou: Yes. Every time someone says the word pod I scream.
Ann: Yes, right, portable on-demand storage is what I think. Not to give a shout-out to someone who has not advertised on our show. But there is a very funny thing. So full disclosure, you know how non-reality TV fluent I am but the last reality show I watched was the queer season of Are You the One?
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
Ann: And the first thing that I clocked and laughed at which is also I think a common element in a lot of the performing competition reality shows is this hilarious and excessive use of neon that is supposedly responsive to things that are happening on the show. So in Are You the One they go into like a booth to be like are you in fact a match? And there's glowing lights. And on Love is Blind there's like a we see from above the pulsating outlines of the pod, and I'm just like this is such a funny . . . it reminds me of seeing people using a computer in a movie in the '90s where it's like doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo, seeing things that are vaguely-looking sciencey.
(10:12)
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yes. This is how reality TV works. You are accurately honing in on the design of a confessional space. This weird design thing always gets . . .
Ann: Well and also it's like this kind of visual way of underscoring the false premise of the show which is like, you know, there is something sciencey at work here. You know what I mean? Or there's some greater force at play than just like alcohol. Anyway.
Aminatou: Yes, Nick and Vanessa Lachey. [Laughter] That is the greater force. That's the greater force in play here. I was very skeptical, I have to tell you. Nothing -- what have I not watched? Like nothing stresses me out on TV anymore. It's like sure, you want to do immigration fraud? I'm here for it. You want to, I don't know, eat your feelings on TV? I'm here for it. You want to get plastic surgery? I'm here for it. This show though? This is wild. This is like truly wild.
So people start dating and as expected when you don't have the stimulus of seeing what someone looks like and there's this weird barrier between you, if you're open to it, people get vulnerable. And like at first it really disoriented me and then I put my thinking cap on and I was like oh, the reason this show feels great to me and the reason I actually love it is this is just like the halal version of Love Island, you know?
Ann: [Laughs]
(11:45)
Aminatou: It's like oh. I was like oh, raised in a Muslim home. I know exactly what's going on here. Dating in a supervised location? Check. Never seeing each other until you're in a committed relationship? Check.
Ann: Frosted partition?
Aminatou: Getting married? Yeah, you know, getting married within two to three weeks? Check, check. Drama for your entire family? Da, da, da. Everything here is -- this is like the most Muslim TV show that has ever existed before. So the idea that everyone is like oh, this is so different and it's so revolutionary and so whatever, no, no, people in other cultures kind of date like this. And there is a case to be made for if you say that you are ready to settle down there are a lot of societal mechanisms to help you get there.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: But this is wild.
Ann: I want to talk a little bit about the thing you said about how this setup encourages vulnerability because one thing that I just kept thinking about is like, you know, the noted phenomenon wherein heterosexual men rely on their romantic partner to be their emotional lifeline for everything right? I'm not saying this is every heterosexual man but as a default and like studies show . . .
Aminatou: Are you saying #notallmen, Ann?
Ann: I am in fact saying not all men but also statistically men who are married to women are basically like I'm only emotionally close to my wife. Like that is definitely a documented phenomenon. If you were in my office right now you would see lights flashing as I make a scientific point.
Aminatou: [Laughs] In m confessional booth over here the light is neon green.
Ann: Yes exactly. It's like she is citing science. And, you know, one thing I was really struck by is it really felt like a distillation of that phenomena where every time I heard one of these male contestants say something like "Oh, I just find myself opening up to her," it's like yeah. [Laughs] Like yes, of course.
Aminatou: What else are you going to do here?
(13:45)
Ann: Exactly. And, you know, there's this sequence in one of the early episodes where the contestants are gender-segregated so the women live with other women and the men live with other men and they can see each other and hang out. It's not like a complete pod situation. And, you know, they edit in this scene where the women are talking about what do you think the men are doing right now as they sit around and talk about their feelings. And one of the women goes "Probably a push-up contest or something." And then of course they have footage of the men's side of the summer camp or whatever and they are doing various feats of strength and not talking about their feelings.
And I have to tell you, okay, I have a question for you on the men's feelings front on this show. So there is a guy with kind of like a scraggly beard who is seen in emotional conversation with the men on their side of the camp, you know?
Aminatou: Oh my god, Rory. Yes. And you think . . .
Ann: Is Rory a contestant or is he a hired therapist working for the show? [Laughs]
Aminatou: I am so glad you bring up Rory because this is so relevant to so much about the show because the minute that I started watching it and I started feeling all these feelings, what is the first thing I do? I start reading about the production. Who are the people who are manipulating me?
Ann: You bring tears to my eye. I just love you so much. I'm like of course you start reading about the production. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I was like pause the show. I was like talk to me about who made the show. So here's actually the tea on Love is Blind, Halal Love Island, is they setup the show -- the production was setup to follow a maximum of five couples because the producers went into it and Nick and Vanessa Lachey went into it being like who is bananas enough that they're going to get engaged on the show? They're like probably we'll get two couples. Here's what happened: almost everyone got engaged and the production didn't have any money. They were only setup to follow five. So literally when they maxed out their five couples they're like okay, we're fine.
Ann: Shut it down.
Aminatou: But people in the house kept . . . yeah, they just shut down. They were like sorry, we can't follow the rest of you. So other people were also getting engaged but we'll never know about them. So Rory whose job is . . .
(15:50)
Ann: We are blind to their love you might say. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right, we are blind to their love. So Rory is a Twitch streamer, LOLOL.
Ann: What?
Aminatou: And he was like -- yes. So everyone thought he was a plant because he was so supportive and he was so nice or whatever. And he was like no, no, he was inside and he was falling in love like everyone else but they wouldn't follow him and his like person. But the thing that I thought was so funny was that he -- you know, it's so apparent. You're like who is this guy who is sharing? And he's like everyone's therapist in here. Turns out he's just probably a little bit more well-adjusted than everyone else but also for reality TV was too boring to be followed which is why they didn't follow him and his person.
(16:30)
But he confirmed in all these interviews that he said "I love you." People are saying I love you after three days. I have never -- when I'm telling you Ann that I was screaming, because the thing you were talking about, the gender binary here and feelings, is so real and it is my true belief that . . . it's why church also did not work for me is I think that if people are going to share feelings and be vulnerable you need a licensed psychologist there.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: It is truly -- it is like doing heroin. Doing feelings unsupervised is nuts, and this is what the show is. It's just people being like oh, I've never opened up to anyone before then they do it and then there's no one there to hold them. So what's the next step? They're like "I'm going to marry this person." You're like what?
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: One of the things that was so emotional for me was watching these dudes cry, you know? And all of it, it was real. It was very genuine and it was very affecting. So you watch them cry about they're so in love and they're meeting someone, the adrenaline is pumping, and then you keep watching the show and some of them are kind of jerks and you're trying to reconcile how is this asshole the same person who was like crying five minutes ago about marrying this woman? And then you realize oh yeah, you've like never shared your feelings with anyone before and so you did it and that's what you're doing. And for the women having a man share this super-vulnerable moment with them also makes them feel like oh, look at the emotion that I just got out of someone so this has to be my person.
Ann: Yes.
(18:00)
Aminatou: Which shows like this, when I am king therapists will be everywhere. This is so intoxicating. It's not normal. Doing feelings is real drugs.
Ann: Right. And I guess this show feels like because of the format, it feels like a real distillation in different gender socialization in terms of how comfortable and willing you are to talk feelings with people. That actually -- it's funny, this podcast, like this is not a dating and relationships podcast but . . .
Aminatou: I know. This is the first time we are talking about dating on the show and I am loving it.
Ann: But I have to say I know it's in the context of a dating show but one reason why I really wanted to talk about it on our show is because I'm like actually I feel like it has a lot more to do with emotions and gender socialization. It's like yeah, yeah, dating, sure, and also rampant amounts of alcohol, but how people expect to make connections or how people of different genders expect to make connections and how when you put it -- what's the metaphor, put a finger on the level or weight the scale? [Laughs]
Aminatou: When you weight the scale, yes.
Ann: When you weight the scale.
Aminatou: When you put your finger on the balance. [Laughs]
Ann: Right, exactly, and make people who are not socialized to be very fluent in feelings be fluent in feelings, yeah, that's how you get more couples than you budgeted for getting engaged. [Laughs]
Aminatou: But here's what I will say, Ann, about that: the reason that The Bachelor is boring besides the fact that it's this very 1950s very white, very heterosexual, problematic show is also just that it's one person dating like 100 people right? So the attention is either on one man or one woman and on this show it's a household of people dating all sorts of different people. And sometimes there -- like there was one man that a couple people fought over and I was like I cannot believe all of you are fighting over a man named Barnet, like this is wild. Whatever.
Ann: Oh don't even get me started on Barnet.
(19:55)
Aminatou: Civilians dating is so nuts, you know? I'm just like what are you guys doing? But anyway, you know, there were all sorts of different expressions of dating in the house. I for one -- it was interesting to me that all of the men got on this show wanting to essentially settle down. That is not a stereotype I would've had of men their age. And I do think that for the women that is an additional draw. Because even on The Bachelor the bachelor says he wants a wife but bachelors be leaving people at the aisle all the time. [Laughter] And with this, you know -- and with this you're like oh, I was truly shocked that they found that many men who wanted to settle down. That was like straight men who wanted to do it in that age range. That was interesting. But then you kind of look at their horoscopes and you're like yeah, like no shit. All of these Cancers and Ares, this is why we're all crying. [Laughter] Anyway, that's separate from the science of the show as Nick Lachey would have us believe.
Ann: Right. People who don't believe in marriage or astrology are not on this show.
Aminatou: Yeah. But another thing, the parallels of the Bachelor are obviously there. It's like you go to their hometown, you have these hometown dates, and here every time that I thought a family member would be like "Ooh, this is wild. What? You're marrying a white man?" or "What? This one is 24?" a lot of their parents were very much like "Okay, I do think it's wild that you're on television," but also they would all tell kind of their story of being married in traditional our parents' generation. They'd be like "Yeah, met her at the pool. Five days later we were engaged and now we're married." Again halal dating since the beginning of time. It's been working.
So again I'm like if you want to settle down and you want to meet someone there are a lot of levers to pull there. And so the thing that the show thinks it's doing is not the thing it's actually doing but I have been really pleasantly surprised with some of these couples how wholesome it is, like the interracial couple of Lauren and Cameron, I am dying. I'm dressing up to watch their wedding tomorrow because that's my royal wedding. I did not watch the other royal wedding. This is my royal wedding. I'm so excited about it.
[Ads]
(24:40)
Aminatou: People were proposing to each other through frosted walls. I just -- what?
Ann: Two days in. Two days in. Two days in.
Aminatou: Yeah. I love you and then like I'm ready to marry you. But again I'm like I was raised in a Muslim household so none of this surprises me. But it's just, you know, I don't know, there are no elements of the show structurally that are different. Even when they were all in Mexico I'm like oh my god, of course they're at the same resort. But at the same time it's like when everyone . . . it's not that it's a competition which is what is surprising because in every other show when they do that it's to set people up to compete with each other. It's like either you're going to like partner swap or you are -- you know, you're racing each other for a prize or a thing.
(25:20)
And here it was like no, the production has a set budget. We have this resort in Mexico. You guys are all going to end up here. And then they take them through the stages of you meet then you have this other honeymoon period. And the thing that I was struck by probably the most, because I was very much -- you know me, I hate when people are like technology is bad. I was like technology is neutral. It's people that are bad, or it can be good. But the minute they gave everyone their phones the problem started again. It wasn't that they got into the real world; it was the fact that they had access to their phones and to their real lives. And that was very much like oh, okay. There really is something about the meeting someone in a vacuum then having to reintegrate them into your real life that is very important.
Ann: Oh my god. I will see it through. I'm like -- you know, I'm excited to be talking with you about something on-trend in real-time, like shout-out to my dirty office. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh my gosh. Well tell me who is your favorite couple and who is your least-favorite couple? Or give me observations about people.
Ann: Oh, I just feel -- I mean, look, Cameron and Lauren are . . . how can they not be a fav? Like truly. But I really feel like -- I'm watching like on another . . . I don't know, I'm truly watching on another level where I'm like oh my god, these men being like horrible like even when they are not like standing in a bar next to this woman, they're in a separate pod, right? Just the way some behaviors also do penetrate this kind of very odd and controlled experiment is a thing that I'm interested in. I also can't let go -- I know I have not made it far enough into the show to see them cohabitating yet but I'm just like heterosexual women, you cannot judge a man until you have shared a space with him. This is where the halal dating breaks down for me where I'm like longevity is in all this kind of little daily life stuff. So I'm more just like also setting myself up for the dramatic cohabitation scenes that are sure to come.
Aminatou: I would pay extra money to Netflix just to see more footage of what happened on everyone's dates and the things that they actually talked about because they emphasized a lot of okay, some people talked about family and that was a huge -- like Lauren and Cameron realizing how important family is for them, or Kelly and Kenny, the most forgettable couple on the thing -- I keep calling them Kenny collectively because I truly don't remember their names. You know, they're just things that they're like okay, these people bonded over family. These people bonded over being rebels. These people bonded over whatever.
(27:50)
But obviously when they start cohabitating, like one couple, you realize they didn't talk about money in the pods at all and finances become an issue. And for me I'm like what is the point of you can fully just be yourself if you don't ask the scariest things you can ask someone because you're actually never going to see them again? Like there is part of that setup is so appealing to me because it's like great, you can ask someone anything you want and then you might never see them again and it's fine. And instead you realize there's all these big questions like will your parents come to our wedding? Do you have college debt? Do you whatever that never . . . I'm like you had zero distractions and that is not a thing that came up? That is wild.
Ann: Right. And it's funny for something that kind of has this sciencey idea at its heart. It's like actually there's also a lot of research about what ends relationships and it is everything you just named right? Like money stress and different priorities and values.
Aminatou: You think Nick and Vanessa Lachey, the scientists in charge of this project, are reading about science and statistics? Because I don't think so.
Ann: With her Milano cookie empire? They don't need to worry about that okay?
Aminatou: Stop it, that's the other Alyssa. [Laughs] I hate you. The Milano cookie heiress Alyssa Milano. But you know another thing actually that I want to touch on before we finish this conversation, one thing that I thought the show did egregiously badly and I'm so irritated that they even introduced the premise at all, was with Carlton's character.
Ann: I was actually going to bring this up.
Aminatou: Also I love that I called him a character. The person of Carlton who . . .
Ann: Well he's edited as a character like all these people are.
Aminatou: Well here's the thing. I'm going to tell you why he's a character: he was literally an assistant on Real Housewives of Atlanta and the minute I saw him I was like is that Cynthia Bailey's assistant with a beard?
Ann: No!
Aminatou: Listen, it 100 percent was. So he's on this other reality TV show where he pulled some antics in order to -- you know, he's like a professional reality TV show haver. In the show, sorry for spoilers, but if a show has nine episodes out and you're not watching it's inevitable that there will be spoilers so if you don't want spoilers maybe pause your headphones. But the fact that he is -- says that he's bisexual, does not tell Diamond in the pod, and then tells her in the real world in Mexico then gaslights her about it, is something I thought the show handled so badly. Like Carlton handled it badly and I hate him for it. The show also handled it badly in that I was like you have a real opportunity here because I thought there was so much of it that was bisexual shaming. There was so much of it that was gay-bashing. There was no nuance in how any of that conversation unfolded and it made me really upset.
(30:35)
Ann: Well and right, and I think for all of what we were just saying about this supposed pod you can't see each other setup being designed to foster intimacy or whatever, actually the thought had occurred to me that the producers had asked him not to reveal it during that part of the conversation. Like it felt very like engineered to be like a bomb dropping.
Aminatou: There is no way.
Ann: Like in a way that yeah, I agree. And it was also like, you know, her reaction which I feel like they very much setup ambiguously to be like is it that she doesn't want to be with someone bisexual? Or is it that she's mad that he did not fully reveal this important aspect of himself to her before?
Aminatou: And I think that she made it really clear that she was just like upset that she'd told him everything about herself and he didn't tell her everything about himself, right? But at the same time I was like if you were conducting a scientific experiment, you know, I was like one person that I love to ask all of my partners is tell me about your previous partners, you know? So it's just this thing where I feel like they set people up for failure and also there is so much -- like there are such better ways to setup that kind of tension than to just again unsupervised leave people hanging and then do it on national television in a way where all you're doing is introducing LGBTQ bashing and I really hated that.
(32:00)
Ann: Right. And I guess what I'm trying to say definitely in her defense is I actually don't know, like maybe she said something like "I'm 100% fine with your sexuality. I'm just really mad at you about this as an intimacy issue." You know, if she said something that essentially summarized that. They're not -- I very much felt this episode was edited to make that less clear and make it more like "Oooh, it's like a big scary thing." You know what I mean?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: One reason why I don't like this genre very much is like -- you know, it's funny, for someone who worships the power of editing when it comes to reality TV I'm just like I don't know, I don't feel good about what am I seeing right? And how are these things engineered? I think for me that is like . . . I know that documentaries are also edited. All non-fiction forms are edited and a narrative is shaped by someone who is outside the frame but I think it can be very hard for me to watch this as anything but a producer's version of events you know? And that probably feels like a more accurate way to watch it but I just always end up feeling bad for the people of this show. I'm like I see you plied with alcohol then your narrative's shaped by this other person and whoof.
Aminatou: I mean I end up feeling bad for them and also very much like, you know, there's so much reality TV that exists that I also don't believe people go into it fully naïve.
Ann: Sure.
Aminatou: I'm not talking about every reality TV show but I think this reality TV show specifically attracts a kind of person. It's why watching the whole madness unfold later is also interesting. It's like one person starts having these very serious doubts about whether they can do it or not with a partner that's very securely attached to them and you feel so bad for the partner who is like "I'm read to do this. I thought we talked about this." And the other person is like "Here are all my doubts." You're like excuse me? You literally signed a release that said you would do all these things. So I understand. I obviously understand the human aspect of it but I also think there is . . . like people who go on reality television, I could read papers and papers and papers and papers about the psychology of that.
(34:24)
Ann: About the archetype.
Aminatou: Yeah. I'm just like who -- you know, a lot of Ares just like I said. A lot of Ares, a lot of Scorpios, some misguided Libras. But it's just very . . . yeah, it's just like a kind of thing that I'm like I cannot imagine subjecting myself to this but I do have to say that when I was watching this it gave me the same feelings as early seasons of Real World and Real World Road Rules Challenge where I was like if I had to I would 100% go on this show. It is hitting all of my danger buttons that I like.
Ann: I have to tell you one thing that I thought about is how this show format could be adapted to friendship, and I feel like that was a line of thinking that also occurred to me because I was like god, get these men in pods across from each other and allow them to form some truly emotionally-attached friendships with each other.
Aminatou: I know!
Ann: I mean I know that, you know, culturally-speaking everyone is like okay, if you're not in it . . . marriage creates the stakes for a show like this right? But I really was like oh wow, I actually really love the idea of thinking about if you put me in a pod where I couldn't see and didn't have any info about someone who I would probably never interact with in my daily life would we become friends if we really talked for a long time? There's something very sweet to me in pondering that idea even though . . . I mean I guess when we own our own production company we can do Friendship is Blind.
Aminatou: Nick Lachey, Vanessa Lachey, call us. You know what's interesting too? I've been thinking a lot about the other shows that I'm watching and one show that is also very high-stakes but I feel that . . . and the production is equally as manipulative but the result was very different for me was Cheer where it's a show about cheerleaders in Texas. Every . . . this production is manipulative in the sense that they make you hate everyone and then they tell you their story then you're disarmed, you know what I mean?
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: Almost everyone you hate, at the minute you're like oh this person, this person, this person . . . and that's like a very common reality TV show. And I would say probably like documentary, because Cheer is actually a docu-series. It's very documentary. It's like here is what you think on the service and we're going to go below, and the moment you go below you just start crying.
Ann: But it has that reality TV appeal because it's like who's going to make mat, you know what I mean?
Aminatou: Oh of course, of course.
Ann: A perfect blend of genres is how I would describe it.
Aminatou: Who is going to make mat, the Ann Friedman story. I love it.
Ann: I mean you're on mat with me forever so don't worry about it. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Forever. But you know what I mean? Cheer could've been a very tidy 90-minute documentary on Netflix and instead they were like how do we milk all the money? And how do we raise the stakes? So I enjoyed every single episode. I cried at the finale. I cried at so many episodes. It was lovely. And at the same time it is manipulative and I just -- you know, I think that the reason that for me that works is again because shows about dating are . . . at the end of the day I'm always like marriage is not an accomplishment. This is not as exciting as anyone thinks it is even though I get it. But there was something so different about the vibe of Cheer and getting to know these kids and also I think correcting that stereotype that so many people have that cheerleading is not sports because I left that really being like wow, why are we worshiping football players? Here are the people on the sidelines who are doing athleticism for real. And also you learn so much about black gay boys in Texas and you learn so much about the weird politics of the place and the interior life of all of these kids. And I thought that that was . . . like there was something that really -- it really just moved me and the way I felt about it. I felt like I want to protect all of those children, especially Jerry. Jerry I love you. You're my favorite. But yeah, you know, all of this, it all boils down to editing and it all boils down to who is manipulating you and what they are manipulating you for and I hate that I watch it but I love that I watch it.
Ann: [Laughs] I like to dip in, you know? Happy I dipped in on this one with you.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh. Well look at that, there goes the whole hour of Call Your Girlfriend on . . .
Ann: Wow, who thought we were going to do a whole episode of Love is Blind. Not me. Not me.
Aminatou: I did not think so. It was fully supposed to be five seconds on the agenda. Sorry for all those other topics.
Ann: On this week's agenda, Love is Blind and that is it. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Well I will see you at Cameron and Lauren's wedding on Netflix. Talk to you soon boo-boo.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: See you on the Netflix Internet. You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.