Body Hair
7/5/19 - We’re talking about body hair: our feelings about it and our practices around it. Removing it, grooming it, loving it, hating it, keeping it. Our guest is data journalist Mona Chalabi, who’s written a lot about her relationship with the hair that grows on her bod. We also shout out Jacob Tobia’s Sissy: A Coming of Gender Story.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Mona’s BBC documentary Peach Fuzz
Follow Mona on instagram @monachalabi for excellent illustrations of data she surfaces and analyzes
TRANSCRIPT: BODY HAIR
[Ads]
(0:50)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: On this week's agenda we're talking about body hair: our feelings about it and our practices around it, removing it, grooming it, loving it, hating it, keeping it.
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: Do you love the way I did the agenda this week?
Ann: I love it.
Aminatou: I'm excited. Switching it up. Switching it up.
Ann: I love when you do the agenda. I love it. [Laughs]
[Theme Song]
(1:41)
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman!
Ann: Hello, hello. Happy heat of summer.
Aminatou: Hmm, [French].
Ann: Oh, you know, really good. Like on break.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Ann it's one word!
Ann: Muy bien.
Aminatou: Oh my god. I can't wait for . . .
Ann: This is my version of you asking if I'm writing a book alone.
Aminatou: Oh my god. Yeah, okay, now I get it. The trolling is painful. I get it, I get it, I get it.
Ann: Two can play this game okay?
Aminatou: How's your book going baby?
Ann: Wow, are you saying something? I think the line's breaking up.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Hello? Hello? Hello?
Ann: Hello? Okay, for real, what are we talking about this week?
Aminatou: I talked to journalist Mona Chalabi who is amazing and she has written a lot about her relationship with the hair that grows on her body and just all of the really complicated feelings that you have about it. And I'm really happy that we got to connect about it as woman who are not white and have completely different incentives around body hair or not. The really, really honest feelings of feeling like you are both trying to preserve your own sanity and do a thing that you think is good for you but realizing that you might be contributing into patriarchy. And, you know, body hair and body hair removal, it's complicated.
Ann: Ugh, I love it.
[Interview Starts]
Mona: I'm Mona Chalabi and I'm a data journalist.
Aminatou: Hi Mona, it's so nice to have you on Call Your Girlfriend.
Mona: Hi Amina.
Aminatou: I'm really excited about this.
Mona: Me too.
Aminatou: I feel like we have been following you forever. We're so lucky to be pals with you. Today's episode is all about body hair which is a topic that you have done a lot of data journalism about and also have written a lot about.
Mona: Yeah. I mean it's honestly the sweet spot of journalism for me. It's something that's incredibly taboo and yet incredibly prevalent and that nexus of those two things is what's really interesting to me.
Aminatou: I'm so glad that you used the word taboo out of the gate because as long as I have been alive at least there have been waves of trying to demystify body hair.
Mona: Hmm.
(3:54)
Aminatou: You know, it's the . . . I think right now I'm in the phase where a lot of my girlfriends who were very scared of hair are exploring like armpit hair for example, like that's having a moment. It's always been a little like more pump or, you know, if you're a feminist you're cool with body hair. What I have been fascinated on in your writing is you have written specifically about facial hair.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: Which is, you know, we're not at that wave yet.
Mona: No. I would describe that as the last one here. I think we are a long way off women feeling comfortable moving through the world with facial hair. I know women that do it. I feel like it's problematic to describe them as brave but I view them as brave even if they don't view themselves as brave.
Aminatou: Right.
(4:35)
Mona: The fact that I view them as brave shows how deeply ingrained those norms are at least for me.
Aminatou: Right. And it's just so interesting because, you know, we're all so socialized to believe that women are -- you know, you're just smooth and nothing happens and yet I don't know a single woman in my life that does not have body hair that protrudes from every part of their body.
Mona: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: I have prominently shared with you the menopause mustache that I'm experiencing right now.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: And I weirdly feel very comfortable about it.
Mona: Oh, well see? Not brave. Yeah.
Aminatou: But that is a new feeling. I don't know that that would've happened years ago but I think that reading a lot of your work and talking to other women about just like oh, this is a normal function of my body, it's not an aberration right? And it's actually -- it is like the norm is that women are hairy.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: You're hairy on your face. You're hairy in your bum. You're hairy on your vagina. You're hairy everywhere.
Mona: Your stomach, yeah, yeah. Nipples, let's get to the nipples. Yeah.
Aminatou: Oh, you know the stomach one is really fascinating because I didn't know that that was a strip until I went in for a wax one day and they were like "Do you also want to get your stomach waxed?" And I was like what?
Mona: Yeah.
(5:45)
Aminatou: They charged these weird strips and it was really -- it was interesting. My first and last bikini wax ever.
Mona: See, I think that's really, really interesting because it shows you how much it's very often women that are socializing other women into this. So there's the image of a man who's going to judge you for sure but a lot of my self-consciousness about my body hair has been from other women telling me where the limits of what's normal lies.
Aminatou: Absolutely.
Mona: So I'm getting my chin lasered at the moment and whenever I go in they're always suggesting other parts of my body to do. And I understand that's the business model right? But it also means that I don't feel bad about me having hairy arms. But because of me repeatedly going in and every single time them saying "Are you sure you don't want to do something about that?" it does lodge into your brain.
(6:25)
Aminatou: 100%. I mean it's the number one thing that happens to you when you go get your nails done. It's like one minute you're getting your nails done then they're like "Are you sure you don't want to get your lip waxed?"
Mona: I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: Then it's eyebrows. You know, it's always some combo. I think that's so interesting. In a lot of the data that you've uncovered has there been anything that has been particularly surprising to you?
Mona: So this didn't really come out in the data. This came out from an interview that I did with an endocrinologist. So I was making this BBC Radio 4 documentary about facial hair on women and I was speaking to an endocrinologist about my understanding that I had always believed that I have facial hair because I have an excess of testosterone.
Aminatou: Oh wow.
Mona: Did you think that?
Aminatou: No, I did not think that. I thought that I had a hormonal imbalance but I did not believe that it was excessive testosterone. I just assumed that -- and I think it's from whatever my understanding of PCOS is or any kind of hormonal period issue, I always thought that that's what like too much hair on your body was about if you're a woman.
Mona: So that can be it right? Except that, okay, so first of all she explained to me that our understanding of excessive hair is wildly off, right? Like for her excessive hair is women who literally will shave their full face and they have an 11:00 shadow. That's excessive hair. Like my level of hair is completely within the bounds of normal for someone who identifies as a woman, right?
(7:55)
It's not about excessive testosterone; it's about the ways that my body responds to the testosterone in my body. So I could have the exact same level of testosterone as a hairless white woman but something in my genes means that it responds to it slightly differently. But basically the most important takeaway is that it's not necessarily indicative of some sort of hormonal imbalance. And for us to believe that reinforces the idea that our body hair is an aberration. It's not. It is completely natural even in the sense of what is considered like biologically healthy and "normal." And that was a bit of an epiphany for me.
Aminatou: I'm thinking even about the everybody complaining about the three chin hairs they have around their period or whatever.
Mona: I wish I could count them. Anyway.
Aminatou: Right? You know there was a woman when I was growing up who she had very prominent chin hairs -- this was when I lived in Nigeria -- and in the culture that she was from it was a sign of good luck.
Mona: What?
Aminatou: It was like good luck and wealth and so women in that culture would never -- you never plucked your chin hairs. And I always thought she looked so interesting. Then as an adult I was like why don't I just adopt that? This is fine. It could just be a sign of health and wealth. There are cultural reasons that women keep and don't keep their hair. But it's so fraught.
Mona: Yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: It's so absolutely fraught.
Mona: And in the west it's interesting where our notions of excess come from right? So the technical definition of hirsutism is by measuring the level of body hair on different parts of your body and then assigning them a score and then totaling up that score.
Aminatou: Oh, so there's a scale?
Mona: There's a scale. It's called the Ferriman-Gallwey Scale, right? And it was developed by some white men who were doctors who literally just looked at women's bodies and said "Hmm, that's a four. That's a five." It's so arbitrary. And again it comes from men who assign what constitutes excessive.
Aminatou: The scam on this runs really deep.
(9:50)
Mona: It runs really deep and it's only been in recent years that they've developed a different scale for women of color because we do have more hair. A lot of us just do naturally. And so part of my understanding of what constituted excessive was about a white notion of how much hair I should have.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Mona: Like I'm only hair by white standards really.
Aminatou: I think about this a lot. At the same time I was understanding that I was being sexualized, also just realizing that I was really seeing so many bodies that just never looked like mine. But also not realizing that that kind of body is a different kind of maintenance.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: It's like oh, here's what's happening right? So thinking about so many just like kids who go through puberty and you realize oh no, people are having laser treatments. People are getting waxes.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: People are -- and it costs a lot of money and it costs a lot of time and people are rewarded and incentivized for it in very different ways.
Mona: And not just money and time. Like part of the reason why I'm so obsessed with this is it could be easy for people who are listening to be like this isn't a big deal. There are health consequences to this stuff. I went to a gynecological appointment maybe -- oh, probably too long ago that I got my last smear but anyway.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Mona: I know, I know.
Aminatou: Please go to the OB/GYN. That's another tenet of the CYG religion that we'll talk about when offline.
Mona: I know. I know. It was -- the pap smear was irregular as well and I still haven't dealt with it.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Mona: Anyway, so I put my feet up in the stirrups and she immediately was like "Everything's looking great." And I was like "What? You haven't looked at all." And she was like "Because you have hair here." And she said to me "90% of my patients now don't have any hair and as a result they're developing bacterial vaginosis."
Aminatou: Wow.
Mona: Because your hair there is critical by acting as a buffer between your underwear and your genitalia, right? It creates this cushion that allows air to circulate, that reduces friction. And so these women are developing bacterial infections because their vaginas are being constantly irritated by their underwear. What's more as women of color we especially shouldn't remove our hair because our hair is courser and it's curlier which means that ingrown hairs are more likely which means that scars are more likely which means that open wounds are more likely. I have scarring as a result of removing my hair. My snail trail or happy trail as I've heard it be called over here . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(12:00)
Mona: Happy trail sounds much cuter than snail trail but anyway.
Aminatou: I think it just depends what kind of relationship you have with your bod is how you refer to it.
Mona: I imagine it as a snail. Like a tragic . . .
Aminatou: I love the snail trail. It's cute.
Mona: I mean I actually . . . it's funny, on an intellectual level I love the look. But on an emotional level when it comes to my own body I still can't tolerate it. So as a result of having removed it for so, so long I was left with really, really bad scarring. Really bad scarring.
Aminatou: Wow.
Mona: That I thought was going to be permanent and now that I'm lasering it and it's been maybe two years I haven't had it the skin is finally healing. But instead of having hair there I just had like a trail of like dark destruction. Every single hair that I've removed that has scarred over is like a circle of darkness that's just like a testimony to me hurting my body.
Aminatou: Yeah, a really painful reminder.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: Can I ask you about lasering?
Mona: To get it out? No. [Laughter]
Aminatou: Please, this is radio. Can I ask you about lasering?
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: I grew up being drilled into that people with not white skin cannot do any kind of laser treatments.
Mona: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: Has that changed?
Mona: I think it has changed slightly. They're developing new machines. I would still say that our skin is still more vulnerable to scarring anyway so it's still more of a risk. I will also say it is agony, like it is so, so painful.
Aminatou: Wow.
Mona: I can't really explain the pain. It's like it's a pain in part of your body. You know how you go to have some new thing done and you're like wow, I've never been in touch with that part of my body. Like when I had a IUD -- and I'd never had my cervix opened -- I was like "What the fuck is this?"
Aminatou: Thank you for triggering me. [Laughs]
Mona: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. So like the lasering is underneath the surface of your skin in this way that's like in your flesh. And the pain passes but it's a lot. And the other thing that's really disappointing is, you know, they say you probably need four to six sessions and six sessions has turned into twelve and my hair is still there. And it's only now that the woman is conceding yes, actually for life you have to do it for the rest of your life. And I'm like I signed up for this with the hopes this would be permanent. That's why I'm here and that's why I've literally spent thousands of dollars on this. And so now I'm wondering do I do electrolysis which truly is permanent and is truly even more painful than laser or do I really, really, really interrogate my relationship with my body hair and embrace it?
(14:30)
Aminatou: I mean that's the question for the ages right?
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: Of how do you feel resolved about that? It's something that I think so many people can relate to, right? Like on an intellectual level really understanding okay, I don't want to give into like 1) it's a beauty standard, 2) it's capitalism, whatever. But I think that's a very . . . that's an oversimplification, right? If there's something about your body that makes you feel not good or that is truly an impediment to your own pleasure or to your own joy I think that it is worth also examining, you know, what can I do about that? And I think that we are also really talking in, you know, like a very kind of specific cis . . .
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: You know, like cis context.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: Of thinking about your -- of thinking about body hair. For some people body hair is something they want.
Mona: Yeah, absolutely.
Aminatou: You know? And it's a signifier of, you know, a different kind of positive relationship with your body. It's why I've been so grateful about the work that you've done around this because I do think that it's something we're confronted with every day that we still don't quite talk about.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: You know, mainstream feminism feels like we've already handled that. Like okay, we don't do heels anymore. Nobody's conflicted about their body hair.
Mona: Yeah.
(15:45)
Aminatou: And yeah, it's not true. It's like all of that stuff is really at the forefront of a lot of I would say internal battling that a lot of people have.
Mona: Yeah. And I'm really glad that you mentioned gender. I think again if I'm going to be really, really honest part of my desire to remove my body hair is a desire to protect my privilege as a cis woman. I know I have that privilege and I worry if I was to cut my hair -- it's one reason I keep my hair super long. If I were to cut my hair shorter and allow my body hair to do its thing I would be scared that I wouldn't necessarily pass as a woman and I want that privilege.
Aminatou: Hmm.
Mona: It's gross to say but it's the truth. And there's a lot of people that I know who feel differently and I just have a huge amount of respect for that. They're willing to endure the double take right? And I'm so scared of the double take.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean I think for me where it really boils down to is that everybody should do what they want with their bodies. Where I try to draw the line for myself personally is that I don't want to be complicit in a system that makes other people feel shitty about who they are and how they look.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: And also don't want to ever be in a space where we can't have conversations like these. That are just like okay, let's talk about what we're doing.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: The small things we're doing. I stopped shaving my armpits probably a decade ago.
Mona: Wow.
Aminatou: Just because it's like if you're a darker-skinned person your armpits are always just like black. Like there is just . . .
Mona: The shadow is forever, yeah.
Aminatou: There's always a shadow and it's a thing I used to be really embarrassed and ashamed about. I was like I care so much about this and I care about it a lot in the context of like who -- you know, who is sleeping with me. A lot of times I had to be really honest with myself about that and I was like you know what? Nobody who has ever slept with me has ever said "Ugh, the shadow in your armpit is a huge turnoff."
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: Or these two hairs here are whatever. And I really -- and that was a thing that for me I really had to examine. I was like oh, I think that there's some sort of external pressure but the pressure is actually very internal.
Mona: Yeah.
(17:50)
Aminatou: It's obviously from other messages that I've absorbed. And so yeah, like armpit hair, that's a thing I've never had issues with. Leg hair, same thing. The hair on my face? That has been really, really, really, really tough. Like for cis women not acknowledging that this is 100% the way we pass.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: And it's another way that we really just coattail to a lot of patriarchal systems. That's a thing to think about all the time.
Mona: It is. Like you said, like me wanting to guard that privilege is also upholding the systems of power that oppress other people right? And that's problematic. How are you feeling about your facial hair at the moment then?
Aminatou: You know I feel very handsome. It just like -- it takes a while. The thing with the mustache is that I just refuse to . . . I refuse to wax it. Every time I go get my nails done somebody will mention that. It's like "Oh, do you want to get your mustache taken care of?" And so it was like a tiny act of rebellion against my nail lady is what it started as.
Mona: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And day-to-day I feel differently about it but most of the time I feel very -- I'm charmed by it.
Mona: It's so cute. It's so cute.
Aminatou: I'm like oh, this is what's going on in my life. It's very charming.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: But at the same time I'm obsessed with my eyebrows right now which are just not doing what I need them to do. And I was like oh, here's a different place where body hair comes in. Everybody wants the bushy -- you know, the like beautiful big eyebrow.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: I'm like we are literally demented human beings. Some places everything needs to go. Other places you're like I need it to be quite prominent.
Mona: Yeah. Why do we do it? Is it because it's like a distraction from actual soul searching about other shit?
Aminatou: I mean I think it's actual soul searching. Like that's what's going on. It really -- I don't know, I think for me at least one lie that I like to tell myself or a thing that I'm not always very honest with myself about is I think that I don't traffic in body standard conversations. I'm always like ugh, I'm above this. I'm like I'm very resolved in my fatness.
Mona: Yeah.
(19:55)
Aminatou: And other parts of -- you know, like other areas of my physicality where I'm like oh, this is 100% not an issue for me. Then I talk about it and something like body hair will creep up and I'm like oh actually I have a ton of hang-ups about this.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: But because I don't have conversations like this about it it's really easy to feel like I'm above it. And I'm like yeah, actually I'm not above it at all.
Mona: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: It makes me feel gross. Most of the time it makes me feel gross then it also makes me feel angry. The money part specifically makes me feel very angry because what would I do with all of the money that I saved from not doing upkeep all the time?
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: And also what would I do with the . . . like you had an insane statistic about this, the amount of time that women spend on hair maintenance, I think it was something like 204 hours.
Mona: I don't remember what it was.
Aminatou: It was something like really wild.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: I'm like I could write my book in those hours.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: What am I doing with my life? It's just like very hard to be confronted with all of the work that you do to be part of a system that is oppressive, you know?
Mona: Yeah. And the double standards, like you described it as gross which I think is such an interesting word. When they do surveys with women to ask them why they removed the hair one of the most common answers is it's perceived as unhygienic.
Aminatou: 100%.
Mona: Which is so interesting and it's part of how I perceive myself. It's part of my self-disgust about the hair is that I perceive it as unhygienic. I sleep with men and at no point do I perceive their body hair as unhygienic. And why would I do that to myself? Like what is fundamentally different about my body?
Aminatou: Well because we get messages that reinforce that all the time right? We are punished for not adhering to certain standards of beauty.
Mona: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: All these studies about women who don't wear makeup at work and all this stuff, I'm like you can think you're above it all you want but other people react to you based on how you present.
Mona: Yeah.
(21:45)
Aminatou: I remember even a couple of years ago when -- during the Oscars when Monique was nominated for her role in precious. She has unshaven legs. Here's a woman, pinnacle of her career, and I remember for weeks on end all of the conversation was -- because she was wearing like skirts or dresses that hit at the knee. It's all that was in the media was how oh, it's like look at these hairy legs. I'm like this is wild. Here you are at a professional thing. You are being celebrated for being a really accomplished person and this is all anybody can talk about that's going on with you. That was something that stayed with me for a really long time.
Mona: Yeah, and it sends a message to everyone to be like take care of this or you too will be under the spotlight in this way. Like . . .
Aminatou: Like in your professional life somebody will bring up a thing you were doing with your body because that's more important than the accomplishment that you're . . .
Mona: Exactly. Even the nail salon woman, she's saying "When I look at your face that's the first thing I see," right? And that's your fear -- or that's my fear anyway, moving through the world, is that will be the first thing people see to the extent that I worry how it might be a reflection on my mental health. So when I think of a woman with facial hair I think of a very, very old woman who's like on the bus who I saw growing up right? An older woman on the bus with facial hair. And honestly it frightened me. It was an indication to me that she was not completely with it right?
Because for you to leave the house with that hair means you looked in the mirror and you didn't see it. Or you saw it and you didn't care. And the only possible explanation for not caring is that you are literally a bit nuts. So I worry that if I . . .
Aminatou: That's wild.
Mona: But it's true. I worry that if I have the hair people will assume that I don't see it right? So therefore there's something that's not right with me. I would never dream of going to a job interview with my chin hair and even in the realm of facial hair I think it's so interesting the distinction that people are making between chin hair and mustaches. So like I interviewed J.D. Sampson about this and J.D. who goes by they and she has left the mustache hair but removes their chin hair because they say they don't like the way that looks. And some of the women I've spoken to are like "We don't have full beards, right? It's like this patchy kind of in-between that is so associated with the idea of being unkempt." You know?
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
(24:10)
Mona: It's like not even full masculinity. It's like this sad kind of in-between or something. Anyway, chin hair I would say is even more stigmatized than a mustache for some reason. Like I could imagine maybe one day embracing my stache. My chin hair? Forget it. Especially because a mustache is like -- it's cute. It's like downy hair.
Aminatou: Listen, it's very cute. Yeah.
Mona: It's very cute. It's like a teenage boy's kind of -- yeah. Yeah. Whereas like my chin hairs are wiry and to feel them feels so horrible. And I see whenever I'm in a meeting I find it so fascinating to look at women, and it was also in this study that I read which was talking about how much time women spend worrying about their facial hair. And a certain percentage, I forget how many, but it was a decent percentage of women say they are constantly stroking their chins to look for the hairs. And I see women in meetings doing this all the time, just this relentless search for is there a hair that I haven't gotten rid of? And if so I need to quickly run to the toilet to get rid of it. Like it's genuinely a distraction. It's a preoccupation.
Aminatou: I know but that is really sad. It's like what would you do with all those hours if you had them back?
Mona: I know. I know.
Aminatou: That's wild.
Mona: True freedom is to never have learned those rules in the first place as opposed to even having to do the work of unlearning them. Even that is a distraction, unlearning. It's depressing. It really is and it sounds so trivial but it's not.
[Ads]
(28:18)
Aminatou: I hear you that unlearning is a huge -- it is a distraction. But for me it's been mostly . . . like it's been an education that I really needed because I -- like for one having this menopause mustache, because I've been talking so prominently about it I've also been talking about it with the cis men in my life. And it's been funny hearing from them a lot of anxiety that they have about growing a beard for example. And I was like oh, I didn't know this. And one friend was telling me, he's like "No, beards are in now. Everybody is hashtag beard gang. It's such a thing." And he's like "I can only grow a patchy beard and that's a thing that I have always felt like . . ." You know, it was an assault on his masculinity. Society is really fucked up.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: If only we could accept each other for hi, here's where my body's at. This is the best I can do.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: And there's not like a best standard of every body feature that you can have. And so I will say that for me this conversation, it's been really illuminating and I'm trying to have a lot of . . . just give myself a lot of grace and have a lot of compassion for the people in my life.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: And really -- and I think really interrogate the things that I put . . . where the most pressure is internal.
Mona: Hmm.
Aminatou: Because I do think that for me at least with body hair it's that. I was like well, you know, I'm like I'm a feminist. I understand some of these things. I have a strong will about other things. Why is this the part where it's just a little harder to connect to?
(29:55)
Mona: Because it feels like it's the real fault line of gender right? Like in some ways it was interesting again to speak to J.D. If it weren't for their facial hair it might not necessarily be clear that they were gender non-conforming. Like it's such a powerful way to indicate gender and it also gives you an insight into why the patriarchy I would say polices women's facial hair so strictly because then if you're a man who can't really grow facial hair or only has it patchy at least you have some which is better than being a woman right?
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
Mona: Whereas there are women -- cis women -- who have more facial hair than cis men and that's potentially intimidating and threatening. Like if I actually think about it a woman with a beard and tits? That's so sexy.
Aminatou: Hot. Pretty hot.
Mona: It's so powerful. It's amazing.
Aminatou: It's pretty hot.
Mona: I was going to ask you about the older women in your life, right? So I'm also interested in how these patriarchal norms get passed down from like older women. And I feel like if I was to let my facial hair grow one of the first people to tell me that's not okay would be my mother.
Aminatou: I mean I think that to me is very . . . it's very cultural right? I think that you come from a culture where removing your body hair, it's the norm. It's like, you know, your people invented that or perfected those techniques. [Laughs]
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: Black African women? Not so much.
Mona: Oh wow.
Aminatou: Like they're . . . I would say the body hair pressure from there usually comes from western body standards. So like my mom shaved her legs once in a while.
Mona: Wow.
Aminatou: Like once in a while but generally did not shave her legs. We generally do not do any kind of vagina maintenance. It wasn't like wildly available when I was a kid and also I remember all of the women whose bodies I got to see growing up I was like okay, everybody has a healthy bush here. Like this is great. So for a long time I always associated a hairless down there with being white, like for a long time.
Mona: Yeah.
(31:58)
Aminatou: Until -- and then I had a lot of Arab and Middle Eastern friends and I was like oh yeah, your culture also prioritizes legit depilatory everything top to bottom. But I think it's just very, very interesting. I would say now for most of the African women I know, like especially the ones who live in western countries, they are fully onboard with waxing everything. Which is fascinating because I was like our moms were not that way. I can't say the older women in my life have passed that down to me but I do think that a lack of conversation about it is something that -- you know, I made a meaning out of that silence for a long time. Like it was never a conversation that I was comfortable having with the older women in my life. And also, yeah, it's also not a conversation that I thought they would be comfortable having either. It was just like okay, we have bodies that we don't talk about.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: So I think that creates its own sort so problems.
Mona: Yeah. Because as you say you kind of fill that silence with your meaning or you ascribe meaning to it. Hmm. The prevalence part of it I think is super important, just how non-freakish this is in any way, shape or form.
Aminatou: It's not. Like your entire body is covered in hair. Like there's a function for all of it.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: There's a function for all of the hair. Even the places that you think are not hairy are hairy.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: Like I've been doing for my face dermaplaning.
Mona: What's that?
Aminatou: Which is this . . . it's this -- my esthetician does it which I'm obsessed with but it is this treatment where they take basically a surgical blade.
Mona: [Gasps] Oh my god.
Aminatou: And they scrape off your face. No, but it's good for -- it's like an exfoliating treatment obviously. Like the minute I have it done when I apply an oil or whatever everything just soaks in because there's no hair.
Mona: Yeah.
(33:50)
Aminatou: And they'll show you the tiny bit of stuff that they remove but I'm like that's hair. It's vellus.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: It's everywhere on your body. Like I would never say "Oh, my cheeks are . . ."
Mona: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: My cheeks are hairy or my forehead is hairy but there is just hair all over your body. If you don't know that, you know, science has -- science education has greatly failed you.
Mona: But it has. It's greatly failed us in every possible way. I mean the thing that I always think about is how I knew up until a few years ago exactly how to label my ovaries and my uterus from a textbook. I had no idea how to look at a vulva and identify the different parts of it.
Aminatou: Well that's true.
Mona: And this is even before you get to sex or whatever. Just from those textbooks we should've been learning as well as much about the vulva as about the vagina.
Aminatou: Yep. I'm going to tell you that menopause will make you also feel very different about the hair on your body because I have had some serious hair texture changes all over my body top-to-bottom that have been very, very fascinating. Like that's the creepiest part so far. Every time I'm like whose hair is this? [Laughs]
Mona: How has it changed?
Aminatou: So I have naturally curly, kinky hair. That's the hair texture I have. And now most of my hair grows back kind of bone straight.
Mona: Oh wow.
Aminatou: It's very weird. It's just like it's very weird. And also on the bush I've gotten like a streak of grey hair.
Mona: Oh that's cute!
Aminatou: It happened overnight and I screamed.
Mona: Literally overnight?
Aminatou: Like I'm pretty sure I wasn't paying attention then the day I noticed it I was like oh my god, this is a Susan Sontag situation where it's like a streak.
Mona: Whoa.
Aminatou: I freaked out. I was like yeah, this is . . . and I called my doctor like "Oh my god, I've got grey hair. Am I dying? What's going on?" And she's like "Amina, all of the hair all around your body can go grey. Relax." So yeah, talk about science education failing everyone. But that's it. But, you know, that's a thing that I found also quirky and charming where it's like okay, your body keeps changing.
Mona: Oh forever.
(35:55)
Aminatou: For the rest of your life your body will change and you should probably be very in touch with it so that you're not freaked out any time a small thing happens in your life.
Mona: Yeah, yeah. I actually asked about menopause and facial hair and it was explained to me that that type of hair is different to the other hair. Anyway . . .
Aminatou: It feels different.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: I am unclear about the science of it but I will say that one of the very weirdest things about menopause is that my skin feels different to the touch.
Mona: Wow.
Aminatou: Yeah, like sometimes I'll -- you know like when you're taking a shower or whatever or like I'll be scratching myself, I'm like this texture, this is new.
Mona: Huh.
Aminatou: And I don't quite know how to explain it. It just feels new and then the hair also feels different.
Mona: That's interesting because when we were doing this documentary series about vaginas I didn't realize the way your vagina changes as a result of menopause and that it's got less moisture to it basically.
Aminatou: Oh definitely less moisture to it.
Mona: Yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: It's like your ecosystem changes.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: So, you know, and again I'm like this is why it's good to talk about this right? I was like now all of our friends who know us well know way too much about us.
Mona: No, it's good.
Aminatou: We're saving lives here.
Mona: You really are, and especially the way you've been talking about early menopause. I am so, so grateful for it.
Aminatou: Oh, I'm in full menopause.
Mona: Okay, full menopause. Full menopause. I am so grateful for it because my only understanding of it was watching my mom go through it like many other people who haven't been through it yet themselves. And she went through it early and it can just happen at any point anyway. And I need to anticipate what's going to happen. I need to understand those changes as they're happening and not be -- I don't know, like yeah.
(37:45)
Aminatou: And also just not have . . . I think the thing that going through menopause has done to me, like the way it has changed my brain, because it's truly like going through puberty again but at an adult stage. You know, it's like the same thing where they're just like you just have to go through it. There's nothing you can do to stop it. It's . . .
Mona: Get on the train, next stop -- yeah.
Aminatou: It's a bridge you have to cross. And I had a ton of anxiety like everybody around puberty, like it was a mess. It was a huge -- it was a mess. But the thing about going through menopause now is I realize all of the ways I was socialized to be ashamed of my body or anxieties I have or things like that are huge impediments to either talking to my doctor realistically about what's happening to me or feeling resolved for myself about the ways that my body are changing. And so when I think about this conversation that we're having about body hair and connecting those dots to like oh -- it's vitally important to both be in touch with your body at all points, to have zero shame about it.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: And to really be able to have open communication about it because, you know, for better or worse they're conversations that you're going to have to have for health reasons.
Mona: That's what I was going to say, yeah.
Aminatou: They're conversations that you're going to have to have for social reasons, for whatever. And the more that you can exercise that muscle of knowing how to think about it and know about it, like it's vital. And I mean, you know, now I try to think of my body as an organ I need to respect. I'm like you get me from point A to point B. We've been through a lot together.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: I was like this is the only body I'm ever going to have so . . .
Mona: Own it.
Aminatou: It does a lot for me.
Mona: Yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: Body hair and all.
Mona: Again when you think about body hair in the context of health and you think about actually contributing to your health and you think about how fragile our health is and how much it should be protected and cherished, again the idea of removing it is just so ludicrous.
Aminatou: Ludicrous. Ludicrous is the good word. It's the good word. Well is there anything in your conversations for the documentary or the stuff that you're writing or talking to the endocrinologist that made you feel -- that made you feel hopeful about your own relationship to body hair?
(40:00)
Mona: This is very, very cringy but the thought of having a young person in my life who felt stigma and shame about it and the way I am reinforcing that by removing it really, really made me stop and think twice. Just really entangling how deep this goes. I was speaking to this woman who was saying that she's married. Her wife tweezers her chin hair which I thought was really, I don't know, just so intimate and beautiful.
Aminatou: That's very beautiful.
Mona: Yeah. She said they literally just lie on the couch watching TV and her wife gets rid of them. And she said she went away to the mountains with a group of other queer women, literally not a cis man in sight, and when they were in the mountains they realized that none of them had remembered their tweezers and they all freaked out. Even though every single one of them had facial hair, and still the thought of beholding each other in their natural state I was just like oh my god, this is so messed up. It's so messed up.
Aminatou: Well the next time I see you maybe we'll go to the beach. Maybe we won't freak out about any body hair that we have and we'll have a great day.
Mona: That sounds really nice but I'm going to get laser done tomorrow.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You know what Mona? I still love you.
Mona: Thanks Amina. I'm really sorry.
Aminatou: Don't be sorry. Don't be sorry. You are -- my friend's mom always says this whenever like somebody . . . if you complain about a part of your body, you're like "Oh, I feel fat" or whatever. She always says "You're just right."
Mona: Aww.
Aminatou: And it used to be a thing that I thought was really funny years ago and now I actually think it's the tenderest thing to say to someone.
Mona: Yeah.
Aminatou: So you know what? You're just right.
Mona: Thanks Amina. So are you. So are you.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Bye Mona. Thanks for coming.
Mona: Bye. Thanks for having me.
[Interview Ends]
(41:45)
Ann: Ugh, Mona is the best. One person we really wanted to interview for this episode but we didn't end up making it happen but don't worry we will have them on at a later date is the writer and activist Jacob Tobia whose book Sissy: A Coming of Gender Story contains a lot of really interesting stuff about their relationship to their body hair and gender and I just want to recommend that as a really great piece of writing from a different perspective on this topic. Where're you at with your body hair, boo-boo?
Aminatou: You know I'm in a really interesting place with my body hair because menopause is doing a lot to the hair on my body. But I'm still rocking my menopause stache, like haven't gotten rid of it so I feel very handsome and charming most of the time.
Ann: Could you describe it for people who haven't seen it?
Aminatou: You know, like it's very subtle. I think that your hair to you always feels more dramatic but it's definitely there. It's very laid down, like very wispy -- handsome young lady.
Ann: I love it. I mean also in a particularly well-lit selfie I feel like I get the wisp of meno stache on you.
Aminatou: Right. Like the shadow, you know? It just makes me feel like I can do a lot. But that's like something where -- and Mona and I talked about this -- where I used to have so much pressure about removing it whether it was going to the nail salon then there was do you want to get rid of your mustache or whatever. In another different iteration Amina 1.0 would've definitely, definitely stressed out about it. And now I don't know why, I'm just a little less stressed about it. The hair on my chin I don't feel greatly resolved about. You know, like some days it's fine and other days I'm like ugh, must pluck this one hair. So that's definitely a point of neurosis. I don't really do like shaving your legs so that's never been a problem for me actually. It's so interesting how you feel about hair in different parts of your body right?
(43:45)
Ann: Everybody is so different.
Aminatou: Yeah, everybody is so different. Hair on the legs, I'm like hmm, I have it, I have a lot of it, and I truly do not care about it. That's not a point of stress for me. And armpit hair I gave into not doing anything about that years ago and it turns out it's fine. I'm going to say this: I'm feeling very good about the hair on my body right now.
Ann: Turns out it's fine meaning you thought it might not be?
Aminatou: No, just that I think at different points in my life I felt that I needed to remove it and now it's like it's there. It's not that I don't think about it; it's that I feel completely fine with the fact that it's on my body.
Ann: I love having this conversation with friends of mine noticing that they are or aren't shaving or waxing some part of themselves that I know they used to let grow or wax or shave. Just noting the change and asking about the process, like of course not strangers in the grocery store. I'm literally talking about my friends.
Aminatou: Wow. You're talking to strangers in a grocery store about their hair on their body? Ann Friedman.
Ann: I just don't want to give anyone permission to be a total, total asshole to a stranger. But yeah, I always love like -- I feel like it often comes with an interesting perspective on how people are feeling in their body or other choices they're making more broadly. Because, you know, there are such strong cultural messages about what people are supposed to do with their hair no matter what their gender is. So the choices you make about your hair are in dialogue with what's happening at a bigger level.
Aminatou: How are you feeling about the hair on your body?
Ann: Well 2019 has been the year of growing out my underarms which I mostly did because I've been trying unsuccessfully to switch to a natural deodorant for literally years.
Aminatou: Whew, child.
Ann: Like there's a whole drawer in my house of just failed deodorants. [Laughs] You know, like every time I would read an online review like "This one really worked for me" I would order it and it did not work for me. And I don't know how I got the idea in my head that this was a variable I could change but I have to say it's made all the difference. Like my body -- this is probably way TMI. My body smells differently, i.e. much better with more armpit hair.
Aminatou: I know. Don't you like your natural body smell? That's such a good -- like so into it.
(45:55)
Ann: Yeah, but what's weird about it is I smelled like . . . I don't know, it takes me more days to smell my armpits now than it did before when I was shaving. Like I don't know what it is, maybe the skin-to-skin contact makes me sweat differently. But having some hair in there has really A) made natural deodorant work for me and B) really lengthened the amount of time I can go between showers before I'm like okay, maybe this is a noticeable smell happening. [Laughs] I'm really feeling it. I mean I do like a slight scissor trim because otherwise maybe it pinches depending on how I'm moving but I am feeling having underarm hair. I do shave my legs which brings me a lot of pleasure. I wouldn't say I do it every single day but I definitely like -- it's something I enjoy doing. I enjoy having a smooth leg and I still do that part of it, but maybe who knows? Maybe in another five years I'll be like oh my god, my legs smell amazing with my hair grown out. [Laughs] I don't know. Who knows?
Aminatou: [Laughs] You know what? I hope that works out for you. It's great.
Ann: Thank you. And if anyone needs a whole drawer of natural deodorants that don't work for me please get in touch. [Laughs] I'm just like they should go to a good home. They're not getting any use here.
Aminatou: I'm going to see you at the pool with our hairy armpits and hairy legs and feeling really proud of how our bodies smell.
Ann: Smell you on the Internet.
Aminatou: Smell you on the Internet baby. You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf where Sophie Carter-Kahn does all of our social. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.