Hey Ladies
5/4/18 - Wedding season is in full swing. Michelle Markowitz and Caroline Moss join us to discuss their book Hey Ladies, which chronicles the (fictional) emails among 8 BFFs in the midst of bachelorette party planning and wedding madness. We share our loves and gripes about weddings, group travel planning, and how to communicate better across budgets and desires.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Hey Ladies by Michelle Markowitz and Caroline Moss is available now
Check out some of their original columns for The Toast.
Michelle is @michmarkowitz
Caroline is @socarolinesays
TRANSCRIPT: HEY LADIES
[Ads]
(0:24)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hey Ann Friedman!
Ann: Hey. Wow, I'm surprised we even found time to talk given how many weddings we're both going to.
Aminatou: Uh, you know, wedding season is now open. [Laughs]
Ann: Okay, but also when is it not wedding season? I feel like they just happen all the time.
Aminatou: Right. You know I've been going to a lot of February weddings this year. I was like are we still doing this?
Ann: I've got a New Years wedding planned. They're happening all year round.
[Theme Song]
Aminatou: I love that. Man, how do you feel about holiday weddings?
Ann: You know the older I get the more onboard I am with it weirdly.
Aminatou: I think for me it just depends on the holiday and it depends on the couple.
Ann: It's true.
Aminatou: Sometimes I'm really like yeah, I would love to give you my labor day then other times I'm like you're asking for what?
Ann: It's true. This is a couple I would want to spend New Year's Eve with anyway which helps.
Aminatou: Yes. People have very strong feelings about weddings and about wedding season.
Ann: People being us. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, people being -- well not just us. It's like very fascinating. Today on CYG we have two ladies who know all about this. Michelle Markowitz is a writer and director and Caroline Moss is a writer and editor. She is also a personal friend of mine so every time I make fun of her today please know that it's all in good faith and I'm not actually going to steal her fiance. It's part of a long running joke. But also Dan please call me.
(2:10)
Ann: So wait, so you talked to these women about weddings?
Aminatou: So I talked to these women about weddings. Michelle and Caroline have written a book called Hey Ladies: The Story of Eight Best Friends, One Year, and Way, Way Too Many Emails that is out so if like us you were a fan and a reader of the now-defunct amazing website The Toast you probably have encountered their column. And so they turned it into a book and it is pretty fucking hilarious if I can say so myself.
[Clip Starts]
Katie: Subject: RE: Jen's Bachelorette. Ah, hi ladies! Sorry I'm replying literally five days later. I've been so busy at work and forwarding this email to everyone I know complaining about you. Paris is not a viable option for everyone, Allie. We don't all have rich boyfriends so fuck you. Anyway, literally so excited about Jen's bachelorette weekend! It would be super fun and chill if we could do the cabin house and here's why: some of Jen's cousins and friends from her high school years will probably feel more comfortable there. But obvi that so sucks so if just us five want to go to Portugal another weekend I can totally do both. Just looking out for everyone. Do we want to do the cabin? Let me know your thoughts. Hope this works. Ah, can't wait to see everyone. Katie.
[Clip Ends]
Aminatou: Part of why it's funny is because you have either been the hey lady email sender or you have received the hey lady email sender. And if we're all honest you have been both of those people.
Ann: [Laughs] It's true. And also it's funny because it made us talk about this idea of the term basic bitch and what is basic and just the evolution of how we feel about that label.
(3:50)
Aminatou: Yeah, it's true. I chafe a lot at -- like whenever somebody else says basic bitch I'm just like ugh, don't say that. You know? But I have been guilty of saying it myself and I've more importantly been guilty about thinking about it about a lot of people. And I think that in a lot of friend groups planning events and specifically weddings, especially for women like us who think that we're above the fray of this kind of stuff, it's very easy to fall into that trap of not liking the hey lady. But the truth is that we are all the hey lady.
Ann: Yeah, right. And it's all contextual. Everyone is someone's most mainstream friend, right? [Laughs]
Aminatou: 100%.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: I am struggling very hard to find out whose mainstream friend I am. That's actually not true. I watch so much reality TV I am everybody's mainstream friends. Never mind. I just solved that problem for myself.
Ann: Listen, it's all context right? Like if we're talking about TV you're everybody's mainstream friend. If we're talking about like, I don't know, views on global politics or something maybe you're not.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Thanks Ann. But yeah, the book is really fun. It has four characters that you pretty much recognize somebody that you know in there. But the thing that I really loved about it is it sparks a larger conversation about what is it that annoys us about that especially college group of friends that you're still trying to catch up with or basically hang onto? And also what is it about wedding performativity that really gets on everybody's nerves, right? We have a really lively conversation about it. And I walked away feeling that, you know, in the same way that marriage is work friendship is work. And that if you want your friends to show up for you for things like your wedding or your baby shower or god forbid your PhD graduation -- we should start celebrating women for more things than mainstream accomplishments . . .
Ann: Your bat mitzvah. Whatever it might be. [Laughs] Yeah.
(5:50)
Aminatou: On one hand you should really tell people what it is that you want and if you are the friend you should ask people for what they want in a very real and honest way. Because a lot of miscommunication is born in that place of just mismatched expectations. I'm pretty sure that nobody will ever invite me to their wedding ever again after listening to this episode but I'm okay with that.
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: I send great gifts, so I still send great gifts and I'm pretty confident that I'm a good wedding guest.
[Interview Starts]
Aminatou: Hey ladies!
Michelle: Hey ladies.
Aminatou: Can you tell us who you are and what you do?
Michelle: My name is Michelle Markowitz. I'm a writer and right now my job is as a director for this upcoming game show app. And I'm from New York. What else? Yeah, I'm really excited to finally have Hey Ladies out in the world and have something come out of all the thousands of Hey Ladies emails that I'm still on and have something great come out of it.
Caroline: My name is Caroline Moss. I also live in New York. I'm a freelance writer and editor and I too am excited about Hey Ladies coming out into the world.
Aminatou: What is Hey Ladies?
Caroline: Hey Ladies is a book that Michelle and I wrote and it is based on a series from The Toast that we started in 2013 parodying bachelorette party planning email chains. And at least in the very beginning it was sort of this very exaggerated parody of what it's like to be caught in an 80 email deep thread about planning a friend's upcoming wedding.
Aminatou: And what makes a Hey Ladies email?
Caroline: So it is -- so it starts with hey ladies obviously. It is like a work email on speed, so there's a lot of logistics. There's some bullet points but you keep in all the explanation points. There is a really big push to know your schedule. So someone's going to ask you what days in July and time slots can you do it? Maybe there's a doodle. That has come about. You can go to a site and fill in what days work for you. But mostly it's just everyone doing reply all and being like "I can do Thursday from like 5:15 to 5:24." And then the mark of a real hey ladies email is your schedule is totally disregarded and it's going to be on a day that you have to rearrange some things. And also you owe somebody $40 by the end of reading the email. Like that is a hey ladies email. It's like really enthusiastic. All of a sudden you owe someone for a monogram tank top and you also have to save the month of July because like "We don't actually know when we're going to do it but we're definitely doing it in July."
(8:28)
Aminatou: I mean I read The Toast and thought it was pretty because the Toast series -- I thought it was pretty funny because duh, I've been in those planning, like those threads.
Michelle: Yeah.
Aminatou: But really what I was thinking was oh, I am in these threads but I'm the person that's above it all. I'm not the person that adds to the traffic of the thread.
Caroline: Yeah.
Aminatou: And what was really interesting about reading the book was realizing how actually you are every single one of those characters and being confronted with the we want to hang out so much but also we -- everybody falls into a certain kind of role and we are also all monsters to each other when it comes to planning events. Like I'm curious what you think about that.
Michelle: Yeah. You know, at first when we wrote it was sort of cathartic about our own friend groups and it's like oh, these emails that will never end and let's do this heightened version. Oh my god, this is going to cost so much. Why do we need to schedule in a tanning session six months from now to lay by the pool? The whole point of laying by a pool is to relax. But while we've been doing it I've had my own hey ladies events and I'm like yeah, I'm still like these girls. You can't avoid it. If you need to plan something with 15 women, some of them you know, 90% of them won't get your jokes because it's like the bride's cousin that's never met you so you just need to be very logistics-oriented. And going back while we've been promoting the event I found my own hey ladies emails and I'm like oh my god, 2014 Michelle is super basic. And she's like "So how are we going to get to Maine? Can someone -- do we take the train or a plane?" And it's something where if we were writing this it would drive me nuts and it's like oh, just make a plan and figure it out. But I do that.
(10:15)
Aminatou: But do you think that comes from a place of -- because I think about that a lot. I'm like wow, 2011 Amina, I would not be friends with that person. This is kind of what happens when you are in large friend groups with people who just don't want to say what they want because we're kind of socialized to be door mats a little bit.
Caroline: To be so over polite.
Michelle: Yeah.
Aminatou: You know, you're supposed to be so over polite. So everything becomes a question when really all you want to say is take this Amtrak, do this, this. Nobody wants to assert themselves as the group leader so it comes out in all of these weird sideways -- like you're trying to be friendly but also you're a little passive aggressive. Really if you just said "Actually here's the thing and this is what I want to do," and I think the onus on that a lot of times should be on the person the event is for. I get so frustrated at bachelorettes who don't plan their own parties. It's like no, why would you want a group of strangers to plan a surprise for you?
Caroline: I never . . .
Aminatou: You know exactly what you want. Say what you want.
Caroline: Yeah. I have never -- I have never experienced a bride planning her own event so that's so interesting because it's always someone else doing it. And for me when we started writing these, at least it's something I've realized kind of lately, is in 2013 I was 25 and I hadn't found my real friend group yet. I really hadn't found my place. I had some great friends from college but I never really had a group. So for me when these hey lady emails -- when I was on them I was like the ostracized cousin or the weird work friend. [Laughter] That was my role. And so writing this I was like oh my god, how cool. All these people know each other. Then the stress of having to go away with all these people who are close and I'm the weirdo, that rang true to me. But what's funny about writing these was like in 2013 when Michelle and I started this this was my first foray into wedding season. So I thought what I was experiencing was like -- I was really alone in this. Especially as the weird work friend or weird cousin. I feel like I took on that role. I was like oh my god, what are these emails? Is this how people talk? This is my first wedding I'm going to. And then Michelle tweeted something. What did you say?
(12:20)
Michelle: It was like the worst part of any bachelorette party are all the emails that start off with hey ladies.
Caroline: And I was like oh my god. [Laughter] And, you know, there I was. Venmo didn't even exist yet. There I was Paypalling someone $600 and trying to be super polite, being like "Oh, I don't remember. Oh, hi, I don't remember agreeing to the price but sounds good. Thank you."
Aminatou: Right. You're always doing activities you don't want to do.
Caroline: Yeah.
Aminatou: Just, you know, I really . . . it's so fascinating talking to you both about this now because I think about that time in my life and then the best weddings I have been to recently. Because my secret is I have been a bridesmaid so many times, one because I went to a very religious high school so those people were getting married at 18. I went to my first wedding at 18 and let me tell you disaster nightmare. 18-year-olds should not be getting married.
Michelle: Yeah, what's that like?
Aminatou: I can't wait to get married when I'm like 65 and I finally have money and I'm like "This is how you do it!" [Laughter] But yeah, it's like 18-year-olds and weddings, everybody was upset by the end of it.
Michelle: Wow.
Aminatou: You know, and then I went to college in Texas and those people got married right after college graduation. It's like I have gone through three different phases of life where people are getting married. I would say the thing I love the most in my current friend group is women do plan their weddings. I will never forget the first bachelorette party that I got invited to where somebody said "Hey, I really want a bachelorette party and here's what I want." And she -- but really it was an invitation. It's like "I've rented out this house. I've done this. Please come. Show up." And I was like yes.
Caroline: Oh wow. Did this person pay for that house? Was the bride like I rented the house?
(14:08)
Aminatou: No, she was like "I rented the house and here's how much it cost. And if you come -- if you come here's how much it would be for you."
Caroline: Okay.
Aminatou: But it was so direct in a way I had never experienced before because before it's just like the first time I ever bounced a check, like I'm going to be really honest here, was that wedding that I was when when I was 18.
Caroline: Wow.
Aminatou: Because the dress cost like, I don't know, maybe 200 or 300 dollars. But in 2007 money that's a million dollars.
Michelle: Yeah, yeah. Inflation is real.
Aminatou: Yeah, I had a nine dollar an hour job. So the dress cost that.
Michelle: Oh, definitely.
Aminatou: And then we had to get bone-color shoes.
Michelle: Obviously.
Aminatou: Because they were going to dye them.
Caroline: Yep. Oh, dyed shoes.
Aminatou: And then there were all these small things. So long story short I had to write a check that was definitely over $500. 18-year-old Amina had never seen $500 total. Like I did not know -- like to me I was like is that what rappers refer to as stacks? Because I had never seen . . .
Michelle: Yes.
Aminatou: Yes, it seemed like the most money in the world. And I just didn't do my finances right and definitely bounced the check. It was also the day that I found out Bank of America will let you spend money you don't have.
Caroline: Oh.
Aminatou: Yeah, I went into my bank account and I was like what do you mean negative 45? How can someone have negative . . . anyway.
Caroline: Bank of America is horny for you to like just -- they're like yeah, no, keep using your debit card. You don't have any money in there? Keep going. We'll just charge you 40 dollars every time.
Aminatou: Yeah, so imagine that? But it wasn't until . . . the first time I told somebody I couldn't be in their wedding I was 28. And I finally said -- I was like wow, I can't afford this.
Caroline: How was that received? What happened?
(15:42)
Aminatou: It was not received well, but here is what I will say: it told me everything I need to know about that friendship.
Michelle: Yeah.
Caroline: Sure.
Aminatou: It really did. It really did, because I felt very tender about it and honestly it was very embarrassing to say . . .
Michelle: It's really vulnerable. There's something about friends and then especially in your 20s the money aspect of it where you're figuring it out. People are in different places. People have chosen different paths.
Aminatou: But weddings is when you start figuring out who has money and who doesn't. Or at least who thinks they have money and who doesn't, or whose parents have money.
Michelle: Yeah.
Aminatou: It's the first time you have to spend a significant amount of money for somebody and so it is deeply stressful.
Caroline: I remember in my 20s every time I had to put down 60 dollars for brunch and I haven't been to brunch in a long time because I decided brunch is not a priority for me.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I couldn't afford brunch.
Caroline: But when you're in your 20s you put your credit card down and you're looking around being like am I the only person who is stressed about -- like where are these people getting their money from? And then I feel like when we all turned 28 or 29 everyone is like "Oh yeah, I had no money when I was 22." Well then why were we going to brunch all the time?
Aminatou: Because we never talked about it. Because we never talked about it.
Caroline: I think the thing that always comes up with weddings, especially writing this book, the question everyone always wants to ask us is isn't it so insane how much money people spend on weddings? And every time we're asked this question Michelle and I are like no. If you have the money and you want to spend the money on your wedding . . .
Aminatou: God bless. [Laughs]
Caroline: Go for it, please. In my next life I'm Megan Markle. I'm doing it. I will have the royal everything.
Aminatou: Your current fiance will be very sad to hear about this. When I meet my next one. Dan call me. [Laughter]
Caroline: You would get that wouldn't you? But you know, I don't think it matters. The pressure of a wedding is so great. Instagram is showing you highlight reel after highlight reel. You are watching wedding content that's coming at you like a ball in the face.
Michelle: A ball in the face. That's our next book.
Aminatou: Ball in the face.
Caroline: A ball in the face. Like I don't want to participate in any social activity where balls fly at my nose.
Aminatou: [Laughs] This is a women's content podcast. Please stick to the theme.
Caroline: Sorry, balls-free only. The other thing that I think we hear a lot of is women who are not at the stage where they're planning a wedding yet or they're not engaged and they're like "I would never . . ." And guess what? You probably will because when it's you there's a cultural feeling of like my time, like it's my turn. And so I feel like it has nothing to do with the money but everything to do with the pressure. Like if you have no business doing a bachelorette weekend in Paris, here's the easiest way to lose all your friends by making them feel like in order to prove their friendship to you they need to lay down all of this money. What we found writing this book is we have some more chill than others kind of characters but even they sometimes get really caught up and are trying to prove their closeness, their friendship, like the importance of this person by putting down their credit card. And if you can do it more power to you but if you can't that is the easiest way to get into a spot where when the high of the wedding wears off you don't forget that feeling of pressure, of stress with your friend trying to demand that you make this day fun for her.
(18:50)
Michelle: You know what I always think about too is I've been asked to be in a wedding party and it's been after the point in my life where I can't afford this thousand dollars. It's at a point where it's like do I want to spend a thousand dollars on this and 250 dollars on this terrible dress?
Aminatou: Or am I close enough to this person that I would spend a thousand dollars on them? That's real.
Michelle: Yeah, and you're excited about it. It's interesting because it's really what are your values? It's like oh, I'd rather spend a thousand dollars on a trip to California and do this than a bachelorette weekend where it would be 1,500 but people that spend it in a different way than I want to. So it's really kind of interesting and stressful and I think . . . I don't know, I think there's something too about the format of email versus if these things were discussed in person like "Hey, do you want to be in my wedding? How do you feel about this? This is going into it what it might be and the bachelorette might be here." But because it's all in these emails where it's . . . there's something about email where it's so formal and heightened and you want to present yourself in a certain way.
(19:50)
Aminatou: It sounds like work because we email at work.
Michelle: Yes.
Aminatou: Then you have to find a way. You want to be a professional over email but these are people that you want to have fun with.
Michelle: Yeah.
Caroline: And it's also like you use email at work to document. So if HR calls you're like "I have this email." [Laughter] That's kind of the same thing with bachelorette parties. It's like "I told you on March 19th in this email that this is going to cost 700 dollars so there should be no confusion here."
Aminatou: It's the receipts. It's the receipts. That's how we get receipts.
Caroline: Absolutely.
Aminatou: American weddings also are just like their own thing and I'm definitely noticing European weddings becoming more like American in this way. And definitely African weddings becoming like this because in at least my part of Africa when you ask somebody to be a bridesmaid you pay for everything.
Michelle: Oh, I love that. Yeah.
Aminatou: So it costs you money. So if you want ten bridesmaids you've got to go back to your dad and say we have to sell seven more cows. You know that's really how it works. And so when you choose a wedding party . . . and, you know, African weddings are an event. It's not a one-day thing. It's just like we don't do bachelorette parties but there's definitely like the traditional wedding, what we call the white wedding which is the western one. There's all of these days of ceremonies. You have to outfit your bridesmaids for all of that like new hair, new shoes, all of that stuff. And the family bears the burden of it because you're asking them to represent you and it's also like a form of . . . you know, it's a form of showing off but it's also a form of saying thank you, like you're asking me.
Michelle: Yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: But the thing I am noticing now with a lot of my African friends, especially for those of us who have grown up overseas, is we're becoming a little more American about it where it's like hmm, sure, I'll pay for your hair but you've got to pay for the rest of it, you know? But I have always thought now really in my extremely close friends group nobody does bridesmaids because there are too many people. So in my very close friend group nobody has bridesmaids but I have always thought if I ask somebody to be in a wedding party one day, whatever that means whether it's like hey, you just get ready with me on the day of or it doesn't have to be this formal bridesmaid aspect, but I was like if I ever ask somebody to do that of course I'm paying for it. Your presence is a present. That's the whole -- it has always baffled me that people think that somebody owes them . . .
Michelle: Yeah.
Aminatou: Like somebody owes them something for their wedding.
(22:18)
Caroline: It's really interesting because when we were doing research -- hardcore research for this group, but . . .
Aminatou: A.k.a. going back to Facebook groups that you've quit? [Laughter]
Caroline: We went on Pinterest and there were all these things like the southern something or other but there was this graphic and it said that the maid of honor page for the entire bridal shower . . .
Aminatou: I have had to do that.
Michelle: My jaw was on the floor.
Caroline: Can you imagine?
Aminatou: That's how you -- and I think that a lot of this weird warped wedding etiquette is like somebody's grandma read Emily Post and the whole thing has been a whole game of telephone where nobody actually knows a thing.
Caroline: Yeah. Right.
Aminatou: But I know that in certain weddings that I've been in people choose their maid of honor based on who's going to be able to afford all this stuff?
Caroline: I mean they at least do that.
Aminatou: Well no, like it's not. Like it's your party. You should pay for it.
Caroline: I see.
Aminatou: Because also I think about all of the weddings that I've been in and really a lot of those, especially the early ones -- god, I hope some of you are not listening to this, you probably are -- our friendship has changed a lot. Like if I got married tomorrow would you be shelling out a thousand dollars for me? Probably not because I'm not going to ask you to but there is a part of me that goes man, maybe I should just be a monster and all of my bridesmaids are the women that I've been bridesmaids to and be like . . .
Michelle: 27 Dresses.
Caroline: Exactly, yeah.
Aminatou: I am putting you through the ringer. You know, it sounds really dumb but it is -- it really just goes to the core of people get married really young at an age where we're very stupid about talking about what we want. And a lot of that just manifests in you get the like "Well, we're getting 70 dollar manicures and then this costs this." And also everything wedding-related has a markup. It's so dumb.
Michelle: Oh, totally.
(24:00)
Aminatou: And a very good CYG friend had my favorite wedding that I've ever been to where she didn't tell any of the wedding vendors that it's for a wedding.
Caroline: So smart.
Aminatou: Yeah, she's like I'm getting a cake for a party. I'm getting this for a party.
Caroline: Take note, listeners.
Aminatou: Yeah, and the party was called Be In Love.
Caroline: Amazing.
Aminatou: Like down to the gallery. And at the reception when the gallery owner showed up she was like "This is a wedding?" And I was like what's the problem? The contract says it's a party.
Caroline: You signed the contract. Right.
Aminatou: But one of my favorite things that our friend did or our friends did for that wedding, and I officiated it -- it was when I was like oh, you don't want to be a bridesmaid, you want to be the officiate because then you run the show. You run the show. But instead of having a wedding reception they gave everybody a list of restaurants and the list of everybody who was in town and they were like "You guys figure out lunch for yourselves but meet us back for the dance party." Like we had the ceremony in the park. Everybody went off to do their thing. And in fact it was another friend's birthday that day so another group of friends did a birthday party in the afternoon.
Caroline: That's cool.
Aminatou: And in the evening we all got back together and had a wild dance party. And I was like thank you for taking your destiny in your own hands of what . . .
Caroline: Yeah.
Michelle: Yes.
Aminatou: She's like "I don't particularly enjoy wedding receptions so I'm not going to subject myself to that."
Caroline: This is where I think our generation is so lucky because I have seen Mona Lisa Smile a lot. [Laughter] I've got that Kirsten Dunst . . . our grandmothers had the whole church wedding, like the lunch and reception. Then our moms were a little bit more progressive. But all our parents' weddings look the same. I have this great photo of my mom at her wedding in Ray-Bans but everybody was wearing -- and like in Wayfarers. She's so cute. But I feel like with our generation it's like you can truly do whatever you want but the issue is you just have to manage expectations. You can have a wedding and feed nobody, like you can just have an open bar dance party, but you have to let people know they will not be fed. And I think that's where people -- that's where the tension grows is some of the best weddings I have been to did not resemble weddings at all. But because you knew . . .
(26:05)
Aminatou: But it resembled the people that were planning them.
Caroline: Yes. It's like is there any better compliment than walking out of a wedding and turning to your date or your friends who you went with or whatever and saying oh, that was so them? I just felt like that was exactly who those people are. And it has nothing to do with the food. It has nothing to do with the theme or the flowers or anything. It's just like oh, this is like a real -- a sign of their love and their commitment to each other. And that's I think what everybody strives for. And luckily now you can do whatever you want. You just have to prepare people first. But I will tell you that every bride I know is the first person to tell people who are not married yet "Oh, don't stress. It's totally fine." It's like do you remember two months ago when you were sending me 2 a.m. emails?
Aminatou: Monster.
Caroline: They're like "Oh no, it's just the day goes by so fast." And I'm like bitch. [Laughter] When you get engaged that is your time to shine. Be a monster.
Michelle: What I was going to say about bridal parties is that Amina you were like -- you just said a lot of people don't have them right now, like it's very in to just not have the bridal party. And then I said to a friend when I got engaged, I was like oh, I don't think I'm going to have a bridal party. I just think I want . . . and she was like "Okay, I didn't have a bridal party and guess what? All of my friends were hanging out on the day of my wedding and I was the one running around and doing . . ." Sometimes you have a bridal party just so you have someone to delegate shit to.
Aminatou: I know, but why wouldn't you ask your friends that? Like I had another friend who got married who had no bridal party but definitely assigned to everyone tasks.
Michelle: Oh totally.
Aminatou: And was like "Hey, you are in charge of breakdown." And asked in a very respectful way where they were like "Hi, we need help and here is how you can help us."
[Ads]
(31:38)
Aminatou: I am a firm believer that you can either -- you can plan for your wedding or you can plan for your marriage and that's really up to you. So if you take all the money and blow it on Instagram hashtags good luck for your forever, you know?
Caroline: Right.
Aminatou: Whereas you can take the money and say "Hmm, we're going to do this thing and then we're going to put a down payment on a house." You've got to decide your priorities.
Caroline: I get that that's like the productive choice.
Aminatou: The productive choice. [Laughs]
Caroline: And I get that that's the adult choice, but the best part of a wedding is that people have to say nice things about you. Like if they get up and they're like oh my god . . . it's so validating.
Aminatou: But here's what Call Your Girlfriend is about. Your wedding day should not be the one time in your life that people do say nice things about you. You know, because if you . . .
Caroline: Goals.
Aminatou: Goals, but if you think about the sum total of a woman's life that's why there's so much pressure right? And if you were celebrated for your accomplishments or you were celebrated for being a successful single 30-year-old, you know, I'm like I want somebody to give me money because I have learned adulting on my own.
Caroline: Right.
Aminatou: And I think that shifting that is something that would be . . . 1) it takes the pressure off.
Michelle: I don't know if you've ever gone through this but have you ever been in a relationship where you're just like hmm, I don't think this is my forever person? Especially when I was in my 20s.
Aminatou: Not me. I only date for keeps. Just kidding. [Laughter]
Michelle: Oh, okay well I've been married ten times. But I'm like you're with someone and you're serious, and when I was in my 20s I would really just get very into the fantasy version of everything. I would get into what's the weekend trip we would go on and I would Google it.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Michelle: And I'd think about our wedding. What would our wedding be like?
Caroline: Holidays look like . . .
Michelle: Exactly, what would it look like spending Christmas together?
Caroline: My dad and him having a shot together.
Michelle: Yeah, and it was the fantasy version of it. And then the day-to-day in the relationship was fine but I kind of knew there were cracks and it probably wouldn't be that person. And sort of as I've, you know, become more myself it's like the thing that I fantasize about is just what are we going to watch tonight after work and what are we going to eat?
Aminatou: [Laughs] Netflix and chill.
(33:45)
Michelle: Like this weekend -- yeah, the everyday stuff. Does this person . . . oh, he got me soft toilet paper because he knows I like that. Like really the little things and not those what's our wedding going to be like? I feel like when I go into that version of the heightened this day thing it's because the day-to-day isn't totally where I want it to be and something that's sustaining me. And I was really into the idea of my wedding when I was 25 or 26 and when my everyday what I was doing with my life, when it didn't make me as happy. And also in these email chains it's funny. Like what you said about if someone asked me to do something, I feel like when my friend is like "Hey, can you be here at this time? Let's get ready?" It's like yeah, amazing. But if it's on an email with ten other girls and it's like "Michelle, be here at 6:30 in the morning to help me get ready," every part of me just rebels.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Michelle: And it's like you know I'm going to shop at 6:30 too.
Aminatou: Because in that email they're not really asking you what they want.
Michelle: They're not asking.
Aminatou: They're not asking for what they want. And also I think it is a place where you are insecure about your place in the friend group.
Caroline: Yeah.
Aminatou: And you know that feeling of being in especially a large wedding party where you meet all the other bridesmaids for the first time?
Michelle: Yeah, the cousin.
Aminatou: You've heard about them forever and they're secretly -- you know, it's when the person is not with you they're with that other person. And I've had that where I have met those other girls and we are now friends.
Caroline: Yeah, sure.
Aminatou: You know, where it's how do you know each other? We were bridesmaids. And I've had times where I've met those people and I'm like how are you friends with these people? And you truly do not know. You truly do not know how it works out. But again it's very cliché. It's like if somebody would just say "Hey, I am scared shitless about being married. I just need you to . . . and I'm wearing this stupid Maranga dress. Will you please hold it while I poop? And make sure my bustle is on tight, and is how . . . I love and trust you so much that you are that person for me."
Michelle: Yeah.
Aminatou: That would be so much more constructive than performing . . .
Michelle: Does anyone poop at a wedding? Sidebar.
Aminatou: I had a friend do it and I was like much respect. I was like much respect.
Caroline: You don't stop being humans. Well the thing that we have talked about so much is exactly that point that the book is all about weddings. When we started writing we were like maybe the wedding will be a sidebar conversation or whatever but it's very clear this book is about this wedding at the end of it. But the men of the book are never there.
Aminatou: Yes.
Caroline: This is about friendship. This book is about friendship and . . .
Aminatou: The men are literally decorating -- like cake toppers. Like cake toppers.
(36:10)
Caroline: Yeah. It's like no one cares. The most you get is the Jen character constantly talking about her fiance.
Michelle: Like oh, he danced into my life.
Caroline: That your point, Amina, about a thing that you want on your wedding is to actually be able to say I have a friend who I trust to hold my dress while I poop, it's like . . .
Michelle: It's beautiful.
Caroline: That has nothing to do with who you're marrying and yet an extremely obvious goal that I think we all . . .
Aminatou: Goals. Pooping at your wedding, goals. [Laughs]
Caroline: Yeah. You want not only that person to be at the end of the aisle waiting for you and like oh my god, the only person I see is them, but you actually just want to feel like you're in a room with people who actually are happy for you and will do anything for you.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Caroline: It has nothing to do with money and it has nothing to do with proving your commitment. But a wedding? Everyone wants to be like I don't care. It could be like the two of us dressed like shit in the rain as long as it's the two of us.
Aminatou: No.
Caroline: I want everyone else there too.
Aminatou: Yeah, you want everybody -- that's how I feel. I'm at a point now where man, I'm saying so many things that I shouldn't on this podcast.
Caroline: Name names. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Not name names but going to -- especially weddings where you have to travel far or whatever, you know, you do really have to be special to me because as a wedding guest I feel that my responsibility is being like I am here because I support you. Like I'm here because I support you and you mean a lot to me. I will be honest now, I will give you a gift after I see how well you treat me.
Michelle: Whoa.
Aminatou: Unless you're first-year friends. Like first-year friends I always know what I get them. But you have a whole year to give a wedding gift. I usually give myself one month.
Caroline: Wow.
Aminatou: But I'm like you treat me well, I treat you well. But the other thing too is sometimes saying no -- like RSVPing no on time is actually the biggest blessing that you can give a friend.
Michelle: Yeah.
(38:00)
Aminatou: Because I'm like I'm not coming because this thing is going to cost me 700 dollars or whatever and either like work life or I just don't want to. I love you. I am fond of you. I send a really nice present and you don't have to spend 100 dollars on feeding me. You know, I think it really forces you to evaluate kind of who you want to show up for and what your own values are. And to be clear sometimes you will hurt people in doing that.
Michelle: Yeah.
Aminatou: But I think it also just really -- it shows you who your community is right? But you do want your friends to be there for your marriage, not just for your wedding.
Caroline: Right. But can we talk about -- okay, so yes, like that all sounds great. But what if you're like a people pleaser? What if you're the person who like . . .
Aminatou: You should get over it. [Laughs]
Michelle: True.
Caroline: Really?
Aminatou: Yes. One way -- I feel really strongly about this because the thing about being a people pleaser is that you are not happy. Like you are truly not happy. You're doing . . .
Caroline: The people around you are like please . . . [Laughter]
Aminatou: Yes, I'm aware of what people pleasing is. Sure, make other people happy but my god maybe the reason you're doing that is because we've been socialized for millennia to do that. And what does the world look like when the most important day of your life is not your wedding? You know, you're killing it at work. What if we all threw you that level of partying for work? You would be the happiest human in the world.
Caroline: Yeah, we never do that.
Aminatou: We never do that. We never say like "Hey, congratulations on being 40 and single and taking care of yourself and being awesome." And I think honestly that is part of the pressure of weddings is because your self-worth is tied into a relationship.
Michelle: Yeah. I feel like it's weird, like I've recently gone to some weddings like my best friend got married last weekend and I had such a great time. It was with all your friends where it's like that platonic ideal where it's like actually your friends that you have . . .
Aminatou: Yeah. Yeah.
Caroline: You're actually happy for them.
(39:50)
Michelle: You're actually happy and you're actually just like dancing and sweating and gross and you're in the moment and you feel it. And then I also went to a wedding recently where it was like the okay, I'm going to be eating in my Spanx for nine hours and this is . . .
Aminatou: Nobody is going to invite us to weddings ever again after hearing this. Like we are the worst. [Laughs]
Michelle: Yeah, I know. But it's funny where it's like okay, these people, it's fun. But where you're like there are some weddings where your favorite song can be playing but you're like these aren't really my people. I'm not having that much fun. I've been planning and planning my dress and I got the blowout but this kind of feels like work. And so I think it's all about either is it actually your close friends and do you feel comfortable?
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
Michelle: You know, I think the older you get the more it's . . . I think this is in the book but it's like you want to align the time that you spend with what's important to you in life.
Aminatou: Yes.
Michelle: Actually one thing -- so my best friend got married last week and there's a part in the book where spoiler it's at the end. And a character that got married emails her friends the next morning and her husband's sleeping next to her and she's like "Do you guys want to do the postmortem and grab a bit before breakfast?"
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Michelle: And it was something that I remember my sister when she got married at 7 in the morning called me and my mom. There's that energy and it was so sweet. And last weekend my friend got married and she was texting me at 7:30 a.m. and she's like "I'm looking at all the Instagram videos."
Aminatou: Yeah.
Michelle: My mom was Facebook messaging her like "Are you going to take his name?" And I was like mom, they should be having sex. Give her some space. But it was so sweet where the day after your wedding you want your close friends and you want your girls and you want to hear like tell me the gossip. Who hooked up? And it's like this performative thing where it's like oh, we're losing you and you're starting this life with them.
Aminatou: But really . . .
Michelle: But not really.
Aminatou: Really we let you throw a party with him. We're here.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Aminatou: But I think too this is all kind of hetero lady problems also.
Michelle: Yeah.
(41:44)
Aminatou: First of all we've had this whole conversations, the context of a dude. It's like people with better grounding and queer theory in their lives don't have to go through this kind of stuff because, you know, you've chosen who your chosen family is. You have your biological family and you have your logical family. And you can negotiate that out for yourself or you can negotiate what all of this is. But I think for me having this conversation with you and even -- like I laughed out loud every page of Hey Ladies. But the thing that it really did is it made me realize I was like well I just need to communicate better. The reason that it's fun is because it is a stereotype right? It's like oh, women are like this. Let me be real: when my dude friends plan bachelor parties or whatever . . .
Michelle: It's horrible.
Aminatou: I don't understand how their friendships don't blow up. Because I would rather be in the hey ladies camp than the -- like how many times have I received multiple texts from multiple dudes at the same event and they're all miserable? And I'm like you guys should probably talk to each other.
Caroline: Yeah.
Aminatou: Nobody has planned for snacks. Nobody has planned activities. Somebody said bring a stripper but the stripper did not materialize. Like they just . . .
Caroline: Yeah, how hard is it to book a stripper?
Aminatou: I'm just like please let the hey ladies handle it for you.
Caroline: Yeah.
Aminatou: And I think that they, in the ways we all socialize and in the ways that we're all gendered, you know, for the hetero set, it's that that's a place of deep miscommunication for them also. Then I've seen this so much with so many of my guy friends where they're so resentful of the bachelor party and nobody says anything.
Caroline: Yeah.
Aminatou: Then they just go through the motions of the wedding. And I was like wow, I'm really happy that with women at least they have the decency of being passive aggressive with you and you know what is going on here.
Caroline: You know, like a friend group is much like a marriage or any relationship you have with someone over the age of 17 where you're not choosing this person to be your friend because out of a group of 30 people it's the person you're most likely to want to hang out with. It's like marriage requires work. Friendship requires work. It requires planning.
Aminatou: It requires communicating!
(43:50)
Caroline: It requires communicating. With men a lot of people say oh, all these emails are so annoying. Men are just like oh, let's just show up here and it'll be fine. It's not fine. And also someone shows up at the wrong place because there wasn't an email.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Caroline: I think with all these emails people want to say oh, it's too over the top or you're obsessed with it or oh, you guys are too type A. And it's like that's how stuff gets done. There's a communication that you can make fun of and there's a stereotype that unfortunately to everyone out there who wants to be like oh, that's not me, no, it's you. Like kind of look around like if you can't find the hey lady you're the hey lady.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You are always somebody's hey lady.
Caroline: There's just -- it's like everybody does . . . you're always somebody's hey lady. But it is you and it's because you probably have a friend in your life who you care about and want to make a day or an event special for her. And with that comes all of this work.
Michelle: You forget it comes from a good place.
Aminatou: We've talked about so many traditional things that we are all like ugh, over. Is there some new cool progressive thing or like a wedding that you've gone to that you liked where you're like I would like to see this replicated more? Mine is -- which I really love -- in my close friend group nobody is also doing bachelorette or bachelor parties anymore. People are just having solo getaways with their group of friends and so it has become not . . . it's not gender-segregated.
Caroline: Wait, explain one.
Aminatou: So let's say you and your fiance are getting married. You would say we're both going away on this weekend but I am inviting my friends. And so who are your friends? They're not all hey ladies. And that's your kind of like -- it is just a vacation. And I've gone on so many of these and the last two that I've been on I was the friend of the groom and I really love that. I was like thank you.
Caroline: That's fun.
Michelle: Yeah.
Aminatou: I just want to spend some good time with you before you enter this new phase of your life.
Caroline: That's fun.
(45:50)
Aminatou: And it has been really -- it's been really, really, really fun and it doesn't feel like . . . you know, nobody is like ugh. Because we've talked about, you know, strippers and all of that stuff. Like please, that's literally where I put my foot down on straight people, like bachelor/bachelorette events. I'm like no. It's so tacky.
Caroline: I would be so uncomfortable I would turn red.
Aminatou: It makes me really uncomfortable. And it doesn't make me uncomfortable because sex work is good work. You know what I mean?
Caroline: No, it's amazing.
Aminatou: It's not -- I was like more power to everybody who is stripping hard for the money. It's just straight people are bad people so it always is very . . . it's just like bad. It's just all of it is bad. Because it is really weird, right, that we try to be these progressive people. And then everybody gets really regressive when it comes to wedding time.
Caroline: Yeah. The man has to propose.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's like the man has to propose. You have to be with your women friends and we all do this. And instead you're like no, this is how our community is and this is how our friend group is. And that is what I want reflected in my wedding. That, it has made me so -- as a guest or as somebody in a party it has made me so much happier.
Caroline: Yeah.
Aminatou: And it has made me want to show up more for my friends. Are there any fun things that you've noticed out there?
Caroline: I love the departure from the registry. That is a way I think we're all . . . that is like a regressive thing where this was done . . .
Aminatou: Right. Like who doesn't already have ice cream dishes? [Laughs]
Caroline: Here's the thing, I'm about to make up history because I don't actually know the history. But what I imagine the history of wedding registries are is you've never lived with your fiance before so you're getting married and you are going to build a home together and so you need all the shit. Like you're going to have wedding china which you'll never use and you need like a blender. And that's still a thing where if I had one more fork in my house, like I don't have room for a blender.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Caroline: I'm trying to unload my Instant Pot.
Aminatou: You have been trying to unload your Instant Pot for a long time.
Caroline: I know, because you know what? It was fun for five minutes and now it takes up valuable real estate. So what am I registering for? And what I've appreciated about some friends is there are all these startups that will say "Oh, you can contribute to their honeymoon fund."
Aminatou: Mm-hmm, I love that.
(48:00)
Caroline: Yeah, but guess what? Those startups take 5% of your gift for themselves. So if you're giving like $100 you only get $95. So we have a friend who was like hey, we have a PayPal account or we have a Venmo account.
Michelle: Oh, I love that.
Caroline: If you're going to give us a gift. And it feels like -- I imagine some people will listen to this and be like "Oh my god, that's so tacky." But why is that tacky? A) You don't have a check. I haven't seen a check in 19 years.
Aminatou: I literally just ordered checks today. [Laughs]
Caroline: And like also a honeymoon fund type startup feels formal and kitschy but also are you giving your friends $100 or are you giving them $93.72? Why not just send them the full $100?
Aminatou: Right. Let's be real about what's going on here.
Caroline: Yeah. If we all get more comfortable about money in general, I feel like with the wedding registry some people if you're close with them they will let you in on a secret of hey, we are trying to recoup our losses on this wedding. So here's what you can give us, like we would . . . and I'm like definitely. And it comes back to the communication, right? And the transparency and the forwardness of you know what I want? I don't want an ice cream maker that will live in my cabinet. I want you to give me $200. And I'm like great because I don't know where I'd get an ice cream maker anyway. So that's great. More of that. More of telling people what you want.
(49:15)
Michelle: I would say one thing -- I've been talking badly about weddings and wedding culture for the last hour but one thing I've only recently realized that I love about it is at the shower it's this old tradition where I think you assume . . . I think it's from days where brides would be virgins so you're like I need to get this person lingerie.
Caroline: God.
Aminatou: Those are themed. Do you know that? People will say this is a lingerie shower. Because they're wedding boondoggles. I have been to this where somebody will say come to my kitchen shower then come to my lingerie shower. And I'm like you are a greedy motherfucker.
Caroline: Just to get more?
Aminatou: Yeah, they will do separate ones.
Caroline: All right, yeah, bye.
(49:50)
Aminatou: It's just a gift grab. It's bad.
Michelle: Five for 25 at Victoria's Secret.
Caroline: I'll take it.
Michelle: But I was recently at a shower and it was like my favorite thing in the world where I got to see my friend's very sexy aunt get her sex clothes. And it was all this really fancy lingerie and I was like oh my god, I forgot people do this where it was like this is what her aunt thinks turns men on. And it was this silk nightie, like . . .
Caroline: Little fur on the boots.
Michelle: There was a mock turtleneck with little pearls.
Aminatou: No!
Michelle: I would love to see the man in the '70s that was super aroused by turtleneck lingerie, a full-on floor nightgown. And I was like oh my god this is the best thing.
Aminatou: What are you talking about? I want it for myself.
Caroline: Amina is like Googling. [Laughter]
Michelle: We actually wrote the Hey Ladies book while wearing turtleneck lingerie.
Caroline: Productive clothing.
Michelle: Yeah. That was actually my favorite thing in the world. I was like this is what your aunt is giving you to have sex in?
Caroline: Do you want more of that?
Michelle: I do want more of that. [Laughter] I want more . . .
Aminatou: You're like a reminder of the tradition of weddings.
Michelle: Can we please bring it back to our aunts and grandmothers getting us sex clothes? Yeah. And very classy. It's like that virginal line where it's always like wait, and then kind of like peek-a-boo.
Aminatou: I am sweating.
Caroline: That is the china of underwear though. When are you going to wear the nightie?
Aminatou: I am sweating.
Michelle: I would wear it all the time. Like a matching robe, like a long silk robe. If there's anything that . . .
Aminatou: I'm sweating.
Michelle: Lingerie from aunts. It's out there.
Aminatou: Okay, next time. Next time you come on we'll talk about how many people actually have sex on their wedding night because they're so exhausted from wedding planning.
Michelle: Oh, I always have. I always have.
Aminatou: If you did it right you literally do not have time to sleep -- to have sex.
Caroline: Wait, you always ask? What's the answer you usually get?
Michelle: That it's usually very like we did because we have to. I have a friend who did it and who's trying to get pregnant and fell asleep while holding her ankles up. So exhausting. I'm like I am so lazy. That's how in shape you are? If I had to hold my ankles up for five seconds I'd be getting a cramp tired or not. I'm so impressed.
Caroline: I always thought when I was younger that having sex on your wedding night was a total given and if I ever heard a woman being like "We didn't have sex" I'd be like [Gasps] doomed marriage. But now I'm like can you ever imagine . . .
(52:10)
Aminatou: If I drink as much as I intend to nobody is having sex on my wedding night. What? [Laughter]
Caroline: Amazing.
Aminatou: Anyway please invite all of us still to your weddings. Even though we are bad people we are great guests. I'm a great plus-one. Also I'm in the market for a man.
Caroline: Yes.
Aminatou: In 2019 nobody hit me up. I am not in the market for a man. Thanks for coming on Call Your Girlfriend.
Michelle: Thanks for having us!
Aminatou: Hey ladies!
Michelle: Hey ladies!
Caroline: Hey ladies!
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: So the book is out now. You should read it and you should give it to a friend and also you should call that friend that you've been a hey lady to.
Ann: Oh my god, I love hey lady as a status. Anyway, okay.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.
Ann: See you and all of our other hey ladies and our closer than hey ladies on the Internet.
Aminatou: Hey ladies! [Laughs]