That Don't Impress Me Much
4/27/18 - We discuss the fears black customers face in stores and coffee shops (white people stop calling the cops!) Thank you to everyone who's been #bleedin4Amina, no thank you forever to human housecat Jonathan Chait's opinions about female politicians, and we are devastated about Shania Twain's support for Trump/inability to apologize like a proper Canadian.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: THAT DON’T IMPRESS ME MUCH
[Ads]
(1:05)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda racial bias in stories and coffee shops and what happens when white people call the cops? Whether women candidates should talk about their experiences with harassment or just keep it under warps. We shake our heads at Shania Twain. Ugh, so unimpressed. Plus a blood drive update! You are all heroes.
[Theme Song]
(2:00)
Aminatou: Hey girl!
Ann: You sound tired! Not to do that to you in the way that like . . .
Aminatou: Wow!
Ann: But you do!
Aminatou: You sound tired is the equivalent of you look tired. Girl! [Laughs]
Ann: No, it's not as loaded as you look tired. It is an expression of concern/mutual intensity.
Aminatou: You know, Ann, I am tired. I am tired of society's weight on my life. [Laughs]
Ann: I mean you laugh but that is a real reason to be tired.
Aminatou: No, it's true. I'm tired! I was trying to go shopping for a dress this morning for all this fun stuff I have coming up in Australia. Shout-out to Australia. If you live in Sidney I will be at the Sidney Writer's Festival. Come say hello. But anyway I went into the store because there was a dress I wanted, I wanted to try it on, and you know how monumental it is for me to go into brick and mortar stores. I don't believe in shopping inside a store. It's so mm-mmm.
Ann: In the year of our Lord 2018 this never happened.
Aminatou: Yeah, I'm just like I don't do stores. That's wild. Anyway I go into the store and I have a distinct feeling of being followed, you know? But first, you know, I'm just paranoid all the time so I'm like oh, it's just my paranoia kicking in. And then I turn around and no, no, an employee is legitimately following me and eyeing every movement I have.
Ann: And not in that way of I want to earn a commission, like do you need help?
Aminatou: No, no.
Ann: Yeah, yeah. Just to clarify.
Aminatou: No, not in that way. Not in the "How do I help you?" It was very much a like "You look suspicious so I'm going to follow you around the store." And then I turn around, we made eye contact, and she was very much like "Can I help you?" Not in a helpful way. That's when all of my mother's instinct kicked in in me and I was like "Listen, if you are going to follow me around the store you are going to have to do some serious cardio." So I started getting her pulling things from racks I didn't need, sizes that I don't wear, things that I cannot afford and bringing it all to dressing rooms and all this stuff and basically being the worst kind of customer. But, you know, it just . . . I hadn't felt this way in -- like I have never had the feeling of being followed in a store in the United States. It's definitely happened to me a lot in Europe when I was growing up. But also, yeah, I just don't do brick and mortar stores so it had not happened in a really long time. The only store where people follow you creepily around all the time is the Aesop store but they're literally doing it because they're trying to convert you to the Aesop cult so that's different.
(4:33)
Ann: Right. Well, and there's a difference between someone trying to earn a commission and someone who is racially profiling you, yeah.
Aminatou: Exactly. Or someone who is very helpful. You know, like at the Ordinary store that we were in recently or even at Aesop, and I'm making fun of them, but they're just like "You don't know what skin care is. Let me teach you." Right? I don't need somebody to teach me how to wear a dress so that's not the deal. [Laughs] It made me feel really gross and it just soured my entire morning. I was like well, you know, I have the disposable income of a nine-year-old with a rich dad. Let me spend my money here. And this is actually a store that I've spent a ton of money at. And I go in and the person that was behind the counter, I was like you should at least remember that I have been here before and spent a lot of money before.
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: So the whole -- all of it was really gross and all of this to say the problem is capitalism. Like if I was not in live with shopping for expensive things people would not treat me like a bad person. And I don't know. But you know like I was telling you I definitely remember this feeling when I was younger in Europe. People definitely followed us around the store. It was bad. They would always make you check your bag or whatever and humiliate you. But really I had just -- I was like really? Are we still doing this in 2018? I had forgotten. And, you know, that's the problem: never forget.
(5:48)
Ann: Ugh. I'm so sorry that people are so terrible. I'm so sorry that happened to you, like ugh.
Aminatou: It's okay. This lady definitely got her cardio in today. Like my god, you are going to lift all of these gowns, fool, and all of these shoes, and I don't need them. Then she kind of had to put them all back. But then when I was walking out the store somebody was like "Oh, did anybody help you today?" And I was like "No, but I was followed around your store." It just ruined my money. It was not cool. I'm definitely going to write the manager about it because you know we love customer service in this family. It's like the toll -- it sounds like something so small and immaterial and I'm annoyed at myself about how annoyed I am about it but it is like really ridiculous.
(6:30)
Ann: It's not small though because also there is -- there is like class stuff going on, right? Wherein this is basically someone signaling to you that for whatever reason they have identified you as not belonging in this space, right? They are showing you that for whatever totally unjustified reason they've decided that they don't want you there. And that is a horrible feeling no matter what you're in a space to do.
Aminatou: I know! And it's so stupid too. I want to say this to every luxury store. Like if a black person builds up the courage to walk into your store, especially somebody that lives in a fat body -- walks into your store -- you better believe I have all of those coins in the bank, you know? It's like this is the other side of the Julia Roberts like you made a huge mistake. Big, huge, like that. [Laughter] Except not as charming, you know? And I'm like this is . . . but it's also annoying how small things like that in your day can really fuck it up. And I was like this is -- this is very irritating.
Ann: Yeah. I mean it is not . . . it is not a minor thing. This is putting the aggression in micro-aggression.
Aminatou: Ugh! My god. Well, you know, the thing about this that is great is it reminded me that just this weekend in the United States of America we were all reminded of the fear of being a black patron because of the story of these two young African-American men who basically got arrested at a Starbucks for being just black Starbucks customers.
Ann: For waiting for their friend to arrive at a Starbucks. Like literally . . .
(8:05)
Aminatou: Yeah! And the thing is I'm going to be really honest, I was in Hawaii all last week and in Hawaii we don't get the news. I didn't know Barbara Bush had died. I didn't -- the aloha spirit is strong. The information does not get there.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And so I had just seen a very passing glance at this like black men get arrested at Starbucks and I was like ugh, like what's the big deal or whatever? Or I hadn't read it. And then surprise, surprise the person was political. And reading their story was really outrageous where I was like oh, you were literally just in Starbucks waiting for your friend where nothing costs more than ten bucks first of all so it's not like people go into the Starbucks to steal. They're literally just like we don't like your black-brown body in here because you're probably some sort of thug.
Ann: Well it's also about which Starbucks. It's in -- so Brenton Mock wrote a piece for City Lab about the fact this was in a neighborhood of Philadelphia that is expensive, that . . .
Aminatou: Philadelphia.
Ann: Bills itself as an exclusive neighborhood. That's like language on the city's tourism website. So it's not like just any old Starbucks; it's like a space much like probably the store that you were shopping in that has certain class codes.
Aminatou: I know, but also relax! But also I'm like relax, you are literally a Starbucks. Beyonce is your stupid logo. What are you doing?
Ann: Listen, I'm not telling you it makes sense. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know. But it's like class signify . . . I'm like you're literally just a dumb coffee shop from Seattle. Calm down, you know? But also, yeah, you're completely right about the class signifiers here and just how awful it is.
Ann: Yeah. Ugh. I also feel like it's been interesting watching all of the ripple coverage about the fact that Starbucks stores are going to be closing later this month for -- actually hang on, let me get the exact wording for what they're calling the training. Do you know offhand?
(10:00)
Aminatou: Oh yeah, because the Starbucks is the wokest CEO. He is always trying to get people to talk about race and I'm just like sir, we are just here for caffeine.
Ann: I mean he's the wokest CEO who doesn't give baristas the same maternity leave as his corporate works so I mean -- which is to say not all that woke. [Laughs]
Aminatou: No, real. But you know what I mean? But he also gives his baristas healthcare which is more than anybody else.
Ann: True.
Aminatou: All of this to say capitalism is dirty. I'm not defending the Starbucks CEO. I'm just saying he's particularly interested in race. [Laughs]
Ann: It's true. So yeah, so the deal is on May 29th the "woke" air quotes Starbucks CEO will be closing all of its stores for an afternoon to essentially be like what is race anyway?
Aminatou: Wow. I love that he thinks that in one afternoon he's going to train away racism, you know? Like good try sir.
Ann: I know. I just like -- I keep stopping to like, you know, part of me . . . having seen a lot of comments to the effect of yeah, literally everywhere in America needs to do this, ranging from that to good luck, like sensitivity training doesn't do anything, it's one of those hard things where it's like yes, this is an incident of racism at your store and you are responsible for what happens in your stores so I think you should do something. On the other hand there is not a great track record for what these types of trainings actually achieve in terms of the lived experience of people in those spaces.
Aminatou: I completely agree with you that it's a thing that I think in a corporate setting should be talked about, right? But I guess the thing that scares me is that so many people don't realize that these kinds of -- like we're going to share this Marshall Project piece in the notes -- in the show notes -- but the writer here makes a point that's very real. It's like "Such incidents may register as minor on the scale of negative interactions black Americans have in our society but they're still significant. They matter because they're often the prelude to encounters with the police. Indeed when businesses and their employees find criminality in actions as banal as sitting while black, they're working as first responders in America's manic system of over-policing." You know, I don't know that that's something you can teach Starbucks employees in an afternoon because frankly myself I am just grappling with that right now. You know, and I've talked about this ad nauseam on the show. It's like living -- being black in America and not being a black American has been such an eye-opener for me.
(12:30)
Like I laughed about the encounter earlier this morning at the store but the truth is if I had done anything that that woman considered as like, I don't know, being angry or whatever she had cause to call the police. It is really terrifying. And the idea that a corporation thinks they can address that and not address, I don't know, widespread systemic racism everywhere at the same time is . . . I'm just like everybody is playing with fire here. So while I'm very much like good luck, like we need to start somewhere, but also we need to be serious about this and this is why we need to be serious about it because racism isn't just this ginormous, I don't know, like throwing people off of bridges because of the color of our skin. It literally starts with you not wanting to serve us in the restaurant.
Ann: Yeah. And I think too that some of how this gets talked about is that Starbucks trying to fix racism on one day in May, when in fact maybe set your goal -- dial back your goal to Starbucks educates employees of all races that calling the cops on people of color does not mean the same thing as calling the cops when it's a patron of a different race. And I immediately when I saw this story thought about Alex Nieto, a San Francisco resident who was killed by the police in 2016. He worked as a bouncer at a night club which means that he had a taser clipped to his belt and he was hanging out in Bernal Heights Park eating a burrito either on his way into work or taking a break or something because he had his taser on him. And two white neighbors saw him, called 911, and then when the cops arrived they claimed that he pointed the taser at them and they saw the red light and they thought it was the laser sights from a gun and they shot him.
Aminatou: Wow.
(14:15)
Ann: But all the officers' stories contradict each other. I don't know. So the whole story -- Rebecca Solnit wrote a piece about this. It was covered extensively in the Bay Area local press as well. But, you know, I thought about that immediately when I heard that Starbucks story because I'm like yeah, actually these men having an altercation with the police in which they're still alive is not the worst-case scenario that can happen when you are totally clueless about the history of policing in America and particularly men of color.
Aminatou: Yeah! And it's also like zoom out a little more. Now these guys are all over TV educating people. They've turned into activists overnight. Not to say it's not a worthwhile cause but I'm like wow, this is -- being black is very exhausting. It's like an injustice is done to you and then you have to do something about it for other people. Just watching that has been really, really heartbreaking, you know? And thinking about just all of the minor, small ways that we can be living our lives and be over-policed.
When I lived in the Bay Area I remember one time I locked myself out of the house because I was taking the trash out. I was taking the trash out of my -- like it was just, it was bad luck. Anyway, long story short, threw the keys away.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And I was like oh, I can break into my own house because the window was open and all this stuff. I had literally my entire body into the window when I just got the black paranoia of holy shit, if a neighbor sees me they will call the police and I will die.
Ann: Right.
(15:55)
Aminatou: And I just came back out, sat on my own porch for like two hours until a neighbor came home who had my keys and was able to let me in. And I was like that's literally what it's like to be a black woman in a majority-white society. It is wild out here.
Ann: Right. And I just want that -- like if I had any hope it's like fewer think pieces about whether one day of training will solve racial bias and more hitting home this point that, you know, like hello white people tracking this story. Think twice before you call the cops in a situation that involves someone who is not white period. Think twice before you call the cops period. Maybe that is the low-level lesson that we should all be hammering home so that these men don't have to do education on top of their trauma.
Aminatou: Whew, look at this podcast. Just like open on a "How are you?" and then now we are really out here. We are out here talking about over-policing!
Ann: Look, this is like decades of messaging to white people that have grown up with the idea that the cops are good and are there to save the day, right? Like you are de-programming some deep, deep, deep shit. Ugh.
Aminatou: Yeah, imagine that thinking that the cops can save the day. What? [Laughs]
Ann: I mean that's how I was raised, right? That's how a lot of people were. Yeah.
Aminatou: No, I know. But I'm like I was raised the complete opposite way of that. So even hearing you say it it like boggles the mind.
Ann: Well and like realizing that it doesn't matter that that might be true of some individual cops but having a bit of a systemic analysis that says you cannot invite the risk that happens when you call them for some people, that is . . . actually I think that is a big thing to ask people to get their heads around although it is more concrete than just end racial bias. You know what I mean? Ugh.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, it's true. It's true. Ugh. Anyway, how are you? [Laughs]
(17:45)
Ann: Listen, I just took a mid-day freelancer shower so I am well-moisturized despite this late hour. And I just like . . .
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Ann: You know, my problems, partially because I haven't left the house because I've been working like crazy, but my problems do not involve running into the systemically racist police state. So I'm just going to say that it's been more low-key than yours, probably, my day. [Laughter]
Aminatou: Oh my god, the story of white people. My day has been more low-key than yours. [Laughs]
Ann: You know what? I can both acknowledge -- better I acknowledge it.
Aminatou: It's true.
Ann: Can you imagine if I was like ugh, I have had such a hard day. One of my emails didn't go through then I hate to get on the phone for 20 minutes and correct something.
Aminatou: For real. For real.
Ann: I don't know. It is a hard line to walk, right?
Aminatou: Real. Real.
Ann: I'm like you know, sometimes it's okay to acknowledge that my problems just aren't problems in the spectrum. It is a healthy thing.
Aminatou: I know. But you know in the spectrum of our friendship they are problems. It's not our fault that society pits our problems against each other. It's fine.
Ann: Ugh, yeah, okay. Well, how're you doing?
Aminatou: How you doing? [Laughter] How you doing Ann Friedman?
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Can we talk about something super happy though?
Ann: Please.
Aminatou: CYG blood drive, my god. I cannot believe it. You know my whole life I've believed humans are bad people and that usually bears out for me but some people are extraordinary people. Like I just cannot believe how many people have been to blood drives in Austin, in New York, D.C. Minneapolis this weekend, San Francisco a while back, Los Angeles. I just -- like I can't believe it. I'm making all of you make beautiful content about giving blood. Every single tweet and photo I've seen has made me tear up because it felt like such a self-indulgent request. And, you know, very earnest and all of those things. I'm trying to keep it together and not cry. I don't think I've cried on this podcast yet and I'm not going to start this year. Next year talk to me. But it's just been -- people are awesome, so thank you CYG family. I am so overwhelmed by how kind you are. And, you know, it's like one pint of blood helps up to three people and so many people are getting really excited about because you get all these text messages when they use your blood and you get to follow that trail. It's such an awesome way to do something nice for somebody you're never going to meet, you know? And you're not just doing it for them; you're doing it for their whole family and their community. You're saving someone else's life so thank you for doing that.
(20:30)
Ann: Can I also hit you with a number which is that . . .
Aminatou: Ugh, tell me.
Ann: So far that we know of people associated with the CYG drive have given over 500 pints of blood.
Aminatou: Holy moly! So much blood in my fridge! [Laughs]
Ann: Listen, listen, we've now rented a whole cold storage facility for all of your blood. But yeah, so that means possibly up to 1,500 people have been helped because of this effort. And also I just want to shout-out everyone who went and gave on their own because I think that is both harder to get it together, right? To actually schedule the appointment. But also, you know, you don't have the social experience of seeing a bunch of like-minded people who are there for the exact same reason, i.e. other amazing CYG listeners. And more people gave on their own than gave at blood drives that we hosted in total. So shout-out to all those solo heroes, non-joiners. I see you and I appreciate you. And that's like one reason this was so successful. So, ugh, we're going to leave the form up on the website until the end of April for you to tell us about your solo donation. And you can find all of that at callyourgirlfriend.com/blooddrive. But we'll take that down after April just because, you know, we need to set some kind of boundaries on this. But we hope you all keep giving on your own or with potentially a buddy that you met at the blood drive.
(21:55)
Aminatou: Ugh, keep giving! What a great message. Give blood, give money, give everything.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: I love this. And also I'm just being very exuberant because I am seriously fighting with tears. It has been . . . you guys are the best.
Ann: Ugh, yes. Okay, well that was the best palate cleanse. Platelet cleanse. Not palate cleanse.
Aminatou: Platelet cleanse. [Laughs]
[Music and Ads]
(25:44)
Aminatou: Oh my gosh. Well, you know, you're about to get your palate disgusted all over again.
Ann: Oh my god, what now?
Aminatou: Our favorite indoor cat Jonathan Chait is back at it. [Laughs]
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: You know, every time I read him I'm just like oh, you do not leave the house. You're an indoor cat. It's cool. But also my goodness I'm so tired of this. So anyway Jonathan Chait, New York Magazine, a magazine favorite of this family . . .
Ann: Even favorites can make mistakes. Let's be real. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know, listen, your favorites make mistakes. And, you know, this is not my favorite mistake. But anyway he has written this very irritating piece. Here's the headline: Democrats have great female presidential candidates. They need to avoid the victim trap. Tell us more about the victim trap, Jonathan Chait.
Ann: Oh my god. I'm trying to find the right poll quote here.
Aminatou: I mean my face was on fire the entire time I was reading it so it was hard to focus.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Aminatou: Let me read to you what really irritated me. "These headlines are not a description of Harris's commanding testimony or anything she did." These are headlines about Kamala Harris's testimonies in Congress. "They're descriptions of things that were done to her. And while the intent of the people expressing outrage at the interruptions was sympathetic it was probably not helpful to Harris or to her political goals. It removed Harris of her agency and reduced her to the status of a victim. This illustrates the degree to which left-wing political discourse can paradoxically have a harmful effect on women who are trying to break political barriers." [Laughs]
Ann: Well, so to be clear left-wing political discourse in this case is people pointing out very real incidents of sexism, bias, and discrimination against women in politics. Like that is the specific part of what he is calling left-wing political discourse. Which P.S. this is such a classic anti-feminist argument which is to say if you identify a problem you are playing the victim.
(27:50)
Ann: I know. Also here's actually his definition of victim. It just simply means that if you're a woman who acknowledges structural injustice that impacts your career you're a victim. [Laughs] Which I'm like do we really want to go here? This is wild. And the thing is, you know, I don't think Jonathan Chait is a stupid person but he definitely does not write like a person who reads books about women, you know? Or knows any women. It's just really fascinating to me that he gets to be an important voice on the left or the center, wherever the fuck he thinks he is, because this is such a basic thing. It is so basic sexism 101 that of course the female presidential candidate front-runners are going to be faced with harassment and sexism. That's a given. And for him to think that that ascribes them victim status, he doesn't understand what the specific aim of harassers and discriminators are. Also to me I'm just like you literally are an idiot. There's a reason that people harass women and people discriminate against women.
Aminatou: Yeah. So I mean here is the part where I'm just like -- I think there is many fucked-up things in this world. There's an interesting question at the heart of it and the answer is just so wrong I can't even get started. So he quotes Jennifer Lawless who is a professor of government at American University and studies women in politics. And she says "Voters don't want to be in a position where they're being asked to vote for somebody who needs to be taken care of." And I think that like, you know, I would've loved to see like some polling about what happens to actual voter intentions or opinion polls or public opinion polls after a candidate who is a woman is open about some of the struggle that she's faced. Because what we know from looking at Hillary's clear which to be fair cannot be extrapolated to other politicians because she is singular . . .
(29:45)
Ann: But which she has acknowledge herself.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: We don't have this kind of data because literally she's the only one that we've let get this far.
Aminatou: But what we do see about her is that when she is essentially going through some very public shit that is out of control like when she's being hit by a bunch of sexism on the campaign trail and she does mention it as a real thing, or way back when when, you know, Bill's shenanigans were in the news in the '90s, her approval ratings are always high at that point. Actually this is not like a truism that whenever women are public about the shit that they are put through other people's opinions of them go down. I just like don't . . . I mean I think Jennifer Lawless at American University is probably right that voters don't want to vote for someone who needs to be taken care of. But I think that a lot of women see women in public office telling stories of what they've had to overcome is not an invitation to be taken care of; it's like a guess what? You don't have to take care of me because I got it done despite all this shit.
Aminatou: Right. But it's also this thing where he's basically saying that like this is victim venting, right? Is that whenever women point out structural damage of white male patriarchy we are -- like we're venting. And it's like no, that shit is actually dangerous and affects our lives every day. And the other part is that's literally the irony of what . . . it's very ironic that he's writing this article making that argument because then it means that us complaining about his article is also us just victim-venting, you know? Instead of acknowledging that, you know, we've read a book every once in a while. We would like to see a female president and there are real structural issues for why we don't have women in power in this country. It's not because they're married to Bill Clinton or complaining about being lady senators or whatever; it's because the system is legitimately stacked against them. And that is something that's worth pointing out.
(31:45)
Ann: Oh yeah. And this is like a fucking triple axle that the patriarchy lands every time which is to say that when some points out . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: . . . very real structural stuff, they are quickly labeled as the problem. And we are both mega fans of the scholar Sara Ahmed who both in her book Living a Feminist Life but also on her blog Feminist Killjoys has talked quite a bit about complaint. And when people make a complaint against the system, when they're like hey, look, sexism is real or I was discriminated against or someone tried to silence me when I was just doing my job, i.e. giving senate testimony, they are labeled the problem. Like quickly the problem is not hey, guess what? United States senators are being shouted down when they're trying to do their job. The problem becomes a United States senator has spoken up about the fact that she's getting shut down.
Aminatou: Right, ugh.
Ann: And I think it's possible to acknowledge how that works so quickly in real time that it probably does affect voters. But that doesn't mean that these candidates are assuming the status of a victim and it doesn't mean that all discourse about a problem is endeavoring to turn them into victims.
Aminatou: Right. And the thing is this, is I have serious policy issues with a lot of these women candidates who are running in the same way that I had them with Hillary Clinton. And that's the stuff where I'm like which woman doesn't want to talk about that? I'm like that's what we want to talk about. But the truth is even when Republican women that I don't give a shit about are running I see the sexism that they're confronted with and it's okay to point that out. And, you know, the other thing too about this that's very insidious is sure, Jonathan Chait is like, you know, he's like a New York elite media writer so we all assume best intentions from him. But there is a little bit of self-interest when a man tells you that a sign of strength is just submitting to sexism every day, you know?
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And that is something that's worth pointing out. The other thing that I will say about Jonathan Chait specifically and a lot of these online dudes that are always mansplaining you is they have the thinnest skin themselves. And so it's really interesting for them to tell women all day long that we should just shut up and take it when they get so annoyed when somebody points out a missing comma in one of their arguments. And, you know, I'm just like you don't have to tell women that we are not strong enough. The truth is actually that we're too strong and if we complained more we wouldn't be here. But there's a reason for why we don't complain as much as we should, because people will tell us that we're victimizing ourselves. It's very irritating.
(34:20)
Ann: Yeah. And the thing about this article, and this is what I meant about having some interesting stuff at the core of it, I do think it's interesting to talk about how it is received when women or anyone in public life points out the structural ways that the deck is stacked against them. I think it's interesting to say look, we don't think silence is a great option but let's look at what happens when they call it out. Like that's an empirical thing, right? But if you have a track record of basically a kind of centrism that tells women that hmm, actually it's not as bad as you think it is or maybe you should just try being quiet then I would offer the humble suggestion that you are not the person to explore that issue.
Aminatou: Right, don't mansplain me.
Ann: Perhaps someone who has a history . . . exactly. Perhaps someone with a history of supporting the fact that micro-aggressions and just aggression aggressions are real should be the one to tackle this issue. I have lots of ideas for things to write that I know I'm not the person to write it. Like this comes from being an editor for so long where I'm like I would really love for someone to tackle this issue but for various reasons be they my ability or my identity or even the outlets where I write I know that I am not the person to write that. And sometimes the answer is the topic is valuable. Yeah, let's talk about what happens when women talk about suffering harassment -- women in politics talk about it publicly. But it also could be the answer that you are not the one to be talking about that.
(35:45)
Aminatou: Also at the core of this is also intellectual dishonesty. Like 100%, right? Because there's this part in the piece, like the other part where my head almost exploded. Jonathan Chait quotes a political science professor who says sexual harassment is about power relations and any claim that a politician has been sexually harassed will make them look weak. I hear that quote but I guess Jonathan Chait and I hear different lessons from that, right? Because basically what he is saying is that apparently voters are maybe more comfortable with powerful women who project strength all the time. I'm like isn't that the lady who just lost the election? [Laughs] And so it really bothers me that this intellectual rigor that he thinks he's bringing to everything else, it does not come to bear here. And that, you know, he can write about all these other things very smartly and consider them very thoughtfully but when it comes to women like it's just not true. And I see this every time these bro dudes write about women's politics. My only conclusion from that is well, maybe women just don't matter to you in general otherwise you would interrogate this as much as you interrogate other things.
Ann: Yeah. I think some of this too is like it is a hard line even for well-intentioned people between describing the problem and perpetuating it. And I think when you are not super well-intentioned then it's like oh my god, don't even go there. Like you have lost all privileges.
Aminatou: Yeah. Anyway Jonathan Chait is not an intellectually honest person and definitely not rigorous when it comes to writing and thinking about women and good luck to all the female candidates in 2020 and beyond. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god, yeah. And also good luck to everyone who is trying to draw some broad-based conclusions about this stuff when we actually don't have enough women at high enough levels of politics to have meaningful data. So just, you know, we always talk about being critical readers. When you see someone making broad statements about what works and what doesn't in terms of how women candidates position themselves just know that the data isn't there for anyone.
(37:55)
Aminatou: [Sighs] I don't. And also the thing that is unfortunate as you've pointed out is this article actually makes great points about how victim-hood makes you a leftie hero but it frames you as weak among the general population. That's something that I would like to explore more but no, we're stuck in sexism 101.
Ann: Future episode. Future episode for us.
Aminatou: Future episode. You know, we should just start a podcast called This Article is Trash and we go through like one article a week. [Laughs]
Ann: Ugh, right? I feel like we have to really check ourselves in order to keep this podcast from becoming like we trash a man who has said something completely offensive on the Internet, you know?
Aminatou: Are we trashing a man or is he trashing himself?
Ann: Hmm. We are pointing out a man trashing himself on the Internet. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Mm-hmm, that's what I thought.
Ann: So the podcast is actually called Don't Trash Yourself where we point out how people have trashed themselves.
Aminatou: Yeah, don't trash yourself.
[Music]
Aminatou: Ugh, speaking of trashing yourself I am devastated.
Ann: Tell me.
Aminatou: So, you know, my one shero Shania Twain, like country shero Shania Twain, is acting a fool right now. Ugh, for those of you who don't know because why would you not know about Shania Twain Shania Twain did an interview with -- she has an album coming out so she's doing press right now. She was on RuPaul's Drag Race. [Laughs]
Ann: Where she said nothing. She uttered like one thing the whole time.
Aminatou: And honestly, Ann, I remember watching the episode and being like this is a red flag. But you know when you love somebody you're willing to overlook a lot of things? That was the flag.
Ann: It's true, love is blind.
(39:48)
Aminatou: Anyway, yeah, Shania Twain's not been out and about promoting her album. But it's like she has this new album coming out. She was at Coachella literally only hanging out with black people. Like Shania, Quavo, and like Timothee Chalamet. She is living my best life is basically what I'm saying. As most people who are about to go on tour she is doing a lot of press and she was asked about our president. Sorry, y'alls president. Her answer was not great. She -- hold on. Let me just read it so that we're all on the same page about what happened here because I an legitimately devastated. Also mind you Shania Twain is Canadian. That, like I'll get into that later.
Ann: Important detail.
Aminatou: They asked her about Trump and she said that she would've voted for Trump, so here is her quote. "It's not only the way in which she expresses her conservatism. If she had been able to vote," so basically the writer is saying Shania is a conservative person which we know. We've been listening to the music. "If she had been able to vote in the US election she would've plumped for Trump she says. 'I would have voted for him because even though he was offensive he seemed honest. Do you want straight or polite? Not that you shouldn't be able to have both. If I were voting I just don't want bullshit. I would have voted for a feeling that it was transparent and politics has a reputation for not being that, right?'" My heart sank and I'm like can't even . . . you know you can't trust a country music lady. Like here are the people in country music you can trust: Dolly Parton, at least two Dixie Chicks, and Kacey Musgraves. Everybody else you need to be suspicious of.
But, you know, we listen to the music and we rock with them. Also in the era of Trump being a celebrity publicist is maybe the hardest job because these people don't listen. All you have to do -- it's like if somebody asked you about politics you can just decline. Like if you really think that you don't have the chops to answer this or you don't want to alienate your fan base which like let's be real in country music it's a place that the left and the right -- it's the place that we dance together. And so if you know that you're not trying to lose some record share just say nothing. Like Dolly Parton never speaks about politics. I do not know her politics. But I see what she's doing. She's been out here donating millions of books to poor kids for years and you know she has all those secret hidden tattoos so I fundamentally believe she's a good person but who knows? But, you know, you just don't have to say anything. Particularly if you are not even an American you especially do not have to say anything. So this was such an own goal from Shania.
(42:20)
But here's the thing: the apology is terrible. She like, you know, within 15 minutes of this article tweeting out she was trending and t here's literally three reasons celebrities trend. Like one, they died, or two, their marriage died, or three, their careers died. And like . . .
Ann: No, no, there's a very rare fourth scenario in which they have just released something amazing and surprised us. Like, I'm sorry, Beyonce has trended . . .
Aminatou: Oh, god, when was the last time? When was the last time?
Ann: Please, Baychella 1.
Aminatou: Okay, fair, fair. Baychella. True.
Ann: It is a rare one but it is possible.
Aminatou: Yeah, like confined to Beyonce. [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah, confined to Beyonce and the occasional other crossover that's popular on that platform. I feel like it's like various members of One Direction have occasionally achieved this.
Aminatou: Oh wow, we'll unpack that later.
Ann: I'm just saying there's another category.
Aminatou: Here's Shania's terrible apology: "I would like to apologize to anybody I have offended in a recent interview with The Guardian relating to the American president." If you start your apology with like "I want to apologize to anybody I offended" you already lying. "The question caught me off-guard." What about the question? This man has been president for two years. Are you off guard of being a resident of planet Earth? "As a Canadian I regret answering this unexpected question without giving my response more context." Okay, let's hear the crazy context. "I am passionately against discrimination of any kind and hope that is clear from the choices I have made," It is not clear, Shania, "and the people I stand with that I do not hold any common moral beliefs with the current president." You literally said that he was honest so you hold one common moral belief with the president. "I was trying to explain a response to a question about the election that my limited understanding of what the president talked about to a portion of America like an accessible person they could relate to."
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: "As he was not a politician." This -- first of all Shania Twain did not write this statement. Anyway, "My answer was awkward." Who are these adults that cannot have conversations about politics? It's like either get in the ring or get the fuck out of the kitchen. "But certainly should not be taken as representative of my values, nor does it mean I endorse him." You literally said you would vote for him. A vote is an endorsement.
Ann: You are a public figure who said you would vote for him. That is the exact definition of an endorsement.
Aminatou: That's the definition of endorsement and I learned English when I was 15. "I make music to bring people together." Ugh, you used to. "My path will always be one of inclusivity as my history shows." First of all I am really, truly shocked that a Canadian doesn't know how to formulate a good apology. Like that is a stereotype that I held onto for a long time and my world is shattered once again. Every day that you get older you just stray more and more from God's light and the truth. But anyway, Shania Twain, bad apologizer. But also this apology is fucked up on many levels because Shania obviously knows that she has a strong leftie base. She knows that we're out here singing like Man, I Feel Like a Woman, my number one karaoke song. Now I have to retire it.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: All of this stuff. But she wants to have it both ways. You literally can't say that your path is one of inclusivity and your values are good and you can't articulate your values. Also it is so -- I'm sorry, you know how I feel about celebrities saying dumb shit all the time. If you don't have an answer to something just say that you're not going to answer it or ask your publicist for like a one-liner of how you answer this. That offends me to my core that an adult woman can be like "I don't have opinions about politics." Then shut the fuck up about the politics.
(46:00)
But then the other thing about this apology that's really messed up is you can tell that she's trying to play both sides, you know? And the truth is her tour is not sold out so hmm, way to rock the boat before the tour's sold out. But now everybody's angry. It's like the people on the right that like her are angry because she's not doing a full-throat endorsement of their president and the people on the left are angry because she made us boo boo the fool and now we can't sing Man, I Feel Like a Woman at karaoke anymore.
Ann: Ugh, man, I feel like a totally half-assed, horrible answer to a question I didn't have to answer in the first place. Yeah.
Aminatou: I know! Shania Twain, this does not impress me much. Like you know? [Laughs] I just . . . man, Twitter is the worst thing that has happened to me vis-à-vis celebrities. Like do not follow your favs ever, just ever, because they will all disappoint you.
Ann: Did you read? So the last little kicker quote of this article -- so she doesn't get into this stuff until the second-to-last paragraph of this profile of her. And the very last line is "I'm comfortable in my own skin." [Laughter] And it's like you just said so much actually, like so much about that previous paragraph with that line. And also maybe in your own skin but not so much in your own ideas about the world. And you're right, who are the publicists who are not at least preparing you to answer broad questions about this presidency, about Me Too? I don't think it's fair that women who are entertainers are asked to answer questions about Me Too at a greater rate than male entertainers are. But guess what? Also this is a thing that's happening in our culture right now and if you want your music to be consumed and appreciated alongside other things that are happening in this moment, not as a frozen in amber time capsule with its thumb out in the desert in an amazing leopard print jumpsuit with a hood . . .
Aminatou: Ugh.
(47:50)
Ann: Then you have to own that and want to actually engage in the current dialogue. And so yeah, prep for it or not.
Aminatou: I know. When I am king in order to become a celebrity you're going to have to pass an exam. You need to know current events or we don't let you be a celebrity. Because I do think that it's kind of . . . I always hate it when reporters ask celebrities, you know, their opinions on things because the truth is that a lot of them do not have opinions on anything. You need to sell out the arena and now you've managed to make everyone angry at you. What was the point of this profile?
Ann: Can I just say though that not having an opinion is a luxury? Like if you're someone who has the ability to say "Ah, I just don't have an opinion about one of the major defining political things of our day" it means that you are acknowledging that you are not personally affected. That you're either so wealthy or so privileged as to be insulated from the effects of major political shit. And I'm like that is not a good luck for public figures or for private figures who are just trying to be like hmm, no opinions here.
Aminatou: And also having a platform is a responsibility. And I know that all these people are just like "I'm just famous and I'm not here to teach your children manners" or whatever and I agree with that. But the truth is if you're going to sit down to talk to the Guardian about finding your voice which is literally what the album is about you'd better have found your voice because they're going to ask you to use it. So it's just, ugh . . . you know, I'm just going to go back and focus on my favorite Shania moment of all time, the fact that she married the husband of the woman who stole her own husband. I'm going to just focus and visualize on that because that is a top three mot gangster shit in the world.
Ann: Has she sold her life rights? Can we watch that as a movie sometime? Because that would be so great.
(49:48)
Aminatou: Oh my god. Her Oprah interview when this happened was so epic because yeah, she was like married to the guy who produced all of her albums, Mutt Lange, LOL. You know what they say about lying down with fleas Ann.
Ann: Wait, lying down with dogs. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Sorry, lying down with dogs. I don't speak English. Lying down with dogs. And then the lady that Mutt had the affair with was her assistant but also her best friend.
Ann: Oof.
Aminatou: Don't make your best friend your resentment. They're going to resent you then steal your husband. But also this is how rich Shania is that the assistant was watching her estate in Switzerland because I think Mutt is from Switzerland or some shit so they had a chateau there and she stole her husband. And then they were pregnant at the same time. But then she like -- Shania took her husband. And the other lady's husband is hot, like very hot.
Ann: Oh yeah.
Aminatou: So I think all in all Shania won. But also, you know, this just also reminds me that Shania Twain lives in Switzerland and I'm like yeah, of course you don't have opinions about everything. Literally only bad people immigrate to go live in Switzerland because Switzerland is problematic.
Ann: She has like a vanity geotag on her Twitter in Timmins, Ontario but we know the truth.
Aminatou: We know the truth. We know the truth. But anyway this story is juicy. Lifetime, make the movie ASAP. Ugh. Shania I am so . . . what am I going to do with my thing to see her now? I need to decide if I'm going to see her or not. I'm very upset.
Ann: This is -- I do not envy you this choice I have to say. I mean the ticket is already bought; the damage is done.
Aminatou: Can I still enjoy Shania Twain's music? Absolutely. It's not like I think about Shania Twain on a human level or whatever. But I'm like this has legitimately soured me experience of her music. Ugh.
Ann: Yep, it happens. It happens.
Aminatou: Made me boo boo the fool after I had been Instagramming about her all month. Jesus.
Ann: I'm sorry. My thoughts are with you during this difficult time.
(51:48)
Aminatou: Thank you. Please respect my privacy. You know, another red flag Ann is when she threw shade at Brad Pitt. I should've known right then.
Ann: [Laughs] Brad Pitt is just busy laying around on sand dunes and gazing into the sky. What does she have against Brad Pitt?
Aminatou: Brad Pitt is also kind of woke. He produces some of your favorite black movies and he doesn't talk about it and he's very heartbroken right now and listening to Frank Ocean. And now he's dating an age-appropriate lady, like I'm super into it.
Ann: Okay, I feel like this is just giving someone points for doing what they should be doing all along and not being terrible. Like all of that sounds great but like . . .
Aminatou: I know, I know, but listen. I just want to talk about what I refer to as the Amal Clooney syndrome or like Amal Clooney, I don't know, syndrome is not the right word.
Ann: Effect.
Aminatou: Effect. The Amal Clooney effect that now all of these useless dudes are dating and marrying women in their -- I would say their age range but they're definitely punching above their weight. So, you know, but I'm super into it.
Ann: Yeah. I'm excited to be in the era when the most coveted relationship status is with a super intellectual woman who is roughly your age as opposed to, you know, the kind of traditional this woman is only interesting to me for her looks much younger partner.
Aminatou: Yeah, and definitely smarter than you. Definitely smarter than you. Like I don't even know how George Clooney holds conversations with Amal or like Brad Pitt with this MIT professor. It's like come on.
Ann: I mean nothing becomes an alpha like another alpha. That is the truth. [Laughter] Like I don't know what all these alphas messing around with betas is about in any kind of gender configuration.
Aminatou: It's true. It's true. It's true. Well, you know, Mr. Aminatou is taking PSATs right now so as soon as he graduates college we will both be alphas.
Ann: [Laughs] I can't with you right now. Ugh.
(53:50)
Aminatou: It's true, it's true. Know your worth. [Laughs]
Ann: All right. I feel like any time you mention Baby Mr. Sow I'm like I need to go right now. I'm uncomfortable.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Don't worry, when you're officiating the wedding of me and a 19-year-old . . .
Ann: The Mr. Sow effect.
Aminatou: I know, the Mr. Sow effect. I'm like let them just finish high school. Also y'all I am obviously joking about this. Nothing irritates me more than a younger man so we'll talk about that on our other podcast Don't Trash Yourself.
Ann: Oh my god. Yeah, I actually feel like this is a perfect talking -- perfect subject matter for Don't Trash Yourself although you probably have to write something about it on the Internet first and then we could take it up on our other podcast.
Aminatou: It's true. It's true. Oh my god, can we talk about last week's episode where we were not here?
Ann: Okay, for like one quick second, speaking of men, I have to say that when we consider having someone who does not identify as a woman appear on this podcast we take that burden very, very seriously because . . .
Aminatou: Yeah, we go to our shamans about it. It's serious.
Ann: And I do think the men who were guests while we were chilling at home, getting stoned, and contemplating how to end the police state, they were really, really incredible.
Aminatou: They really were, Ann. And I obviously cry listened to it -- listening to the show [Laughs] -- because, you know, at first I was like oh, this is going to be really fun. And they all took it super seriously. I was like oh, I should probably take my own show this seriously and be this thoughtful. But also I was just reminded of why they're in our lives. We know a lot of good dudes, you know? And I throw a lot of shade at dudes here and I stand by it. Dudes as a group not amazing. But some individual men might could survive the gender wars, you know? I'm into it.
Ann: It's true. And now I'm like the Shania lessons are real. Men, don't prove our faith wrong. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know. Had to go to some of them and be like are you going to embarrass me? Don't embarrass me in my own house. [Laughs]
Ann: Right. Is there any reason you need to say no to this assignment? I won't ask for details but please say no.
(56:10)
Aminatou: Yeah, I don't ask for details but just know that the wrath of vagina-kind will fall on you so . . .
Ann: Oof.
Aminatou: But also, no, they were all great so thank you to all of our pals who hosted last week. You were amazing and we love having you in our lives.
Ann: It's true. Ugh, okay, on that hyper-posi note I will see you on the Internet.
Aminatou: I will see you on the Internet. You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac. Am I singing? Oh my god no, no, no.
Ann: Gina, leave it. Leave it.
Aminatou: I don't know, I think . . . I had to take one baby percocet today. That's probably what's going on.
Ann: Oh my god, I am hanging up on you.