Asking for Help
3/23/18 - Good and bad looks from RBG and Ivanka, respectively. The New York Times and National Geographic are reckoning with their legacies of racism and sexism in very different ways. A digression into Game of Thrones, Age of Adaline and the very dimply Michiel Huisman. An update from Patti Masciesz aka @artpatti on how CYG listeners have been billing the patriarchy! We love Drag Race! But have to drag some of RuPaul's outdated views on trans folk. Plus, asking for help when you're normally the helper.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Remember to sign up for the blood drive!
Scrunchies never went away
Ivanka is dressed up like a scientist
NYT “Overlooked” obituary project
National Geographic’s racial reckoning / John Edwin Mason / Doreen St. Felix
You, too, can Bill the Patriarchy
RuPaul's disappointing views on trans people doing drag
TRANSCRIPT: ASKING FOR HELP
[Ads]
(1:15)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Oprah Winfrey.
Ann: And I'm . . . I'm Oprah too. Who am I? I'm Gayle. [Laughter]
Aminatou: You're Oprah too. We're all Oprah. I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. It's a real week-to-week kind of thing, you know? Are you feeling Oprah or Gayle? I did some gardening yesterday so you know . . .
Aminatou: It's true! Oh, so you feel fraudulent like Oprah?
Ann: Exactly. Exactly. I mean I've got the unnatural California as well, like feeling very Oprah in that moment.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh.
(1:50)
Ann: On this week's agenda scrunchies are back, Ivanka is dressed up and playing scientist, the New York Times is revisiting the women that its obituary section overlooked, and National Geographic is undergoing a racial reckoning. Plus when your gay favs publicly struggle with trans and non-binary identities and when being a good friend means letting your friends help you.
[Theme Song]
Ann: I'm very excited because the L.A. blood drive is happening imminently, like if people are listening to this episode on the day it drops it's happening tomorrow which is very exciting.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh.
Ann: Gina and I are going to be there. I know! Going to be there IRL. Going to like -- ugh, I'm going to start hydrating as early as tomorrow morning, trust. I'm going to be . . .
Aminatou: That's right. Hydrate, eat well, pack a snack.
Ann: The other exciting news is we've added a new blood drive date in Richmond, Virginia. So shout-out to The Broad which is a women-oriented, women-friendly co-working and event space that's hosting. We also have a partnership with Be the Match, the bone marrow registry, where there is a special link -- it's linked on all of the individual blood drive pages and all over our website where people who maybe cannot give due to discriminatory FDA regulations may be able to sign up for the bone marrow registry and contribute to the drive that way.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh, my heart is so full. I'm really overwhelmed. Thanks to everyone who has been sending in pictures and tweets from all over the world. I got a listener from Thailand yesterday who reached out and my jaw dropped. So many Canadians. I'm convinced it is true that Canadians are the nicest people in the world. It is true.
Ann: Every province is represented really.
(3:58)
Aminatou: Oh my gosh, yeah, and our UK fans. My heart is really full so thank you all so, so, so much. It means the world to me.
Ann: And if you are anywhere in the world and want to give as part of this and tell us about it or if you want to find the details for a drive in your area because now they're coming up quick you can go to callyourgirlfriend.com/blooddrive. All one word, blooddrive. Get all the info there and we will see you at the blood drive.
Aminatou: Yes! New York, see you in a couple weeks.
Ann: Yes. I have to hit you with the best quote that I have seen on the Internet all week that made me laugh so hard and immediately text it to several people. Did you see that Wall Street article about scrunchies? The scrunchie coming back?
Aminatou: Of course. Please tell the people who is quoted in the scrunchie article.
Ann: Okay, I'm just going to read the quote then pause then maybe people can guess who it is. Quote, "I have been using scrunchies for years. My best scrunchies come from Zurich, next-best London, and third-best Rome." Any guesses about who this well-traveled scrunchie wearer might be?
Aminatou: Oh my god, legal scholar and scrunchie wearer . . . [Laughs]
Ann: Notorious legal scholar and scrunchie wearer . . .
Aminatou: Oh my god, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, justice of the United States.
Ann: I am just beyond thrilled that the Wall Street Journal was able to get Supreme Court Justice RBG to discuss scrunchies with them. Like what a world we're living in.
Aminatou: You know, she does wear them. She officiated friend-of-the-podcast Irin Carmon's wedding and she was definitely wearing a scrunchie there.
Ann: Was it like lace and black velvet? That's totally . . .
(5:45)
Aminatou: [Laughs] It was not lace and black velvet. It was very wedding-appropriate though. But I appreciate somebody who has, you know, their style and substance has not changed throughout the years. I love that. I hope to be that person for fancy sweatpants in my heyday.
Ann: Oof. I was just about to ask you what style touchstone you were carrying through the entire way. For me it's definitely turtlenecks. As someone who is always cold, has a pretty long neck, and loves wrapping things around it, I feel that's something I can go with for a lifetime.
Aminatou: Oh my god. Speaking of t-necks -- I'm sorry, I'm going to digress a little bit, sidebar -- did you see that picture of Ivanka looking like a scientist?
Ann: Ugh, yeah. The Halloween costume photo?
Aminatou: You know the photo I'm talking about?
Ann: Yeah, of course.
Aminatou: She's wearing a t-neck in the photo and I'm like listen, I'm not even a real scientist but I know that this scientist cosplay is all wrong. [Laughs] Like she's wearing a t-neck. She's pouring into a thing that she's holding herself. Everything about it is fake and I'm like stop doing fake science cosplay.
Ann: I'm like is this your Elizabeth Holmes Halloween costume? Is that what this is?
Aminatou: I know. Elizabeth Holmes, the biggest Silicon Valley scammer in the history of scamming.
Ann: Scammers are attempting to co-opt the turtleneck aesthetic and I'm here to push back against it. I would also like to say I wear a turtleneck in a variety of colors and not just black.
Aminatou: Listen, as a close friend of ours who works in a lab said "Turtlenecks are a lab safety violation. Also you've got to tie -- if you have long hair you have to tie it back and you can't pour into a container that you're directly holding and nobody uses volumetric flasks like Ivanka's using in that picture." So I'm just saying standing up for the STEMinists everywhere.
Ann: You know what it kind of reminds me of too? Every bad rom-com where it's like nerdy girl gets a makeover where they obviously only take off her glasses and over-pluck her eyebrows and straighten her hair or something. I'm looking at you Princess Diaries, etc. Then all of a sudden it's like she's beautiful! That's what this photo reminds me of, like the before phase of actually a super mainstream-acceptable body and physical traits like in every way type character pre-transformation into Hotty McHotty. That's what this photo looks like.
(8:05)
Aminatou: Totally. It's also this other PR thing of my god, this administration is so bad at messaging because all they're doing is trying to find glory for themselves. It's like how hard is it to find a woman scientist or even young girls and make them the object of the campaign? Why do you have to pretend that the president's dumb, dumb daughter knows how to science?
Ann: There is a part of me that is like yes, lots of different images of different types of people being science is cool. But also just get it together.
Aminatou: But those women exist. Find them.
Ann: Exactly.
Aminatou: You don't have to -- you know, this is just so hilarious to me for so many reasons. And also I'm like wow, way to meme yourself. I'm going to be using this photo for ages to come. [Laughs] Thank you.
Ann: It's going to be like the Julia Roberts math conspiracy meme.
Aminatou: Yes!
Ann: When you use this. When I'm like "Amina, can I wear this type of face mask after doing this type of peel?" you can just send me the Ivanka science photo with your non-scientific advice.
Aminatou: Exactly. And be like girl, don't let your face melt. [Sighs] These people. These people.
Ann: Let's actually talk about the news. One million people -- thank you -- sent us this New York Times overlooked obituary project. As devoted listeners know we are deep readers of the obit section in the New York Times and elsewhere so relevant to our interests. What'd you think about it?
Aminatou: I mean awesome. Like, you know, as a package to make the New York Times get great women and people of color content I thought it was good. But I also think that they managed to skate away without really deeply examining their own legacy of not paying attention to underrepresented people in obituaries.
(10:00)
Ann: Oh yeah. So we should back up a tiny bit and explain that this project is essentially taking stock of some of the hugely influential and culturally and politically and all kinds of other ways important women who did not even receive the New York Times obituary treatment such as Ida B. Wells.
Aminatou: Right, the mother of reporting, of modern day reporting.
Ann: Yeah, to whom every investigative journalist owes a debt. I'm like things that perhaps made sense if you're sticking with the norms of the racist and sexist society at the time but do not hold up under what you claim is news scrutiny or impartial, unbiased news scrutiny, right? So yeah, it's a section that was -- it was emotional to read and realize how many women have been written out of history. Like that was . . . in some ways it was that is a nice acknowledgment. But yeah, as you say they totally shirk the responsibility for examining why that happened, like their role in it, and also how that's going to change moving forward.
Aminatou: Right. And then it's fascinating to have that conversation in the backdrop of the other conversation that's happening around ideology with National Geographic. National Geographic basically is admitting that they are a publication that always has depended on exoticism and they're examining their own racist past and seeing if it's something they can escape. It's so fascinating. I grew up reading National Geographic. I definitely felt those influences. It's something that they're paying attention to.
Basically what happened is that Susan Goldberg is Nat Geo's first woman and first Jewish editor. The forthcoming April issue is basically an issue all about race. You've probably seen that cover. It has the two twin sisters on it and one's white, one's black. The thing that's fascinating honestly is the letter to the editor in there. So Susan Goldberg basically reached out to UVA Photography and African history professor John Edwin Mason at UVA. I follow him on Twitter and he is great. You should follow him on Twitter too. She reached out to him basically to examine how the magazine has presented people of different races to its American readers over the years. He reviewed all their published and unpublished photo archives and all the sample issues that they had at the UVA library and it will not shock you to find that up until the '60s and '70s Nat Geo basically was depicting brown and black people as traditional and backwards wearing minimal clothing. You get the stereotype, you know what I mean?
(12:35)
Ann: Right. And also not depicting people of color who lived in the United States at all. Not acknowledging them unless they happened to be, to quote the article, laborers or domestic workers.
Aminatou: Totally. And so Professor Mason looks at all the ways the magazine started to change due to the very reality of de-colonization in Africa and the civil rights movement that's forced them to reckon with the racism. But they're only starting to do that work now. And I thought that the letter to the editor was very compelling. I thought that laying out the project like this and making it a partnership with somebody who is an expert about these issues is also very thoughtful. Also framing the conversation as can we escape our past? Because this is how we've done things. I'm like I'm down for this conversation. It is hard but it's worth it because Nat Geo's a great publication. And as somebody who's felt alienated for years or my whole life now I feel like I can dive back in again.
Ann: Yeah. And it's like the articles that are a part of the New York Times overlooked section do acknowledge the fact that when many of these women died -- the activist and performer Marsha P. Johnson is a great example -- you know, central figure in the gay liberation movement, super important. She died in the summer of 1992 and the article in the Times just says "Her death did not attract much notice in the mainstream press." And it's like hmm, chin stroke thinking emoji. The idea that maybe her entity had something to do with that is certainly acknowledged a little bit and implied. But they don't go as far as to say "Yeah, the New York Times at that time did not acknowledge that the leaders of the gay liberation movement, especially in New York City, were trans women of color." You know, it doesn't kind of go that extra step that I do feel the National Geographic one does as well which is also highly specific about the specific ways that stereotypes were advanced. So the National Geographic thing mentions -- in specific -- the fact that often people of color were depicted as like "uncivilized, fascinated by 'civilized, western technology.'" Like the photos are setup where there is a white person holding a camera with native people straight-up just looking at it. But the way it was contextualized made it seem like oh, these noble savages entranced by technology from the future or something which is National Geographic admitting this is context and this is the editorial choices they made over and over. And while it's nice to be like yeah, there's finally a New York Times obituary for Marsha P. Johnson it's not the same kind of reckoning with the details.
Aminatou: Yeah, I agree with that. This podcast is all about keep your third eye wide open. [Laughs] So this conversation is not happening in a vacuum right? And even examining what that cover story is about the black and white twins I'd be curious to hear your thoughts when you read it. It's like yes, they're making a step in the right direction. But I think still holding them to a rigorous standard is real and also making sure that this conversation's not happening in silos. So to that end Doreen St. Felix who is also a friend-of-the-pod and has been on CYG wrote a great critique of this in the New Yorker which we will link in the show notes. So do your Googles, do your reading, then make up your own mind.
(16:00)
Ann: Yeah. And the New York Times is inviting people to submit other names of people who they've overlooked in the obituary section which I think is fine. But I think that that form could also be used to say "Hello, this is the work that is being done right now that is not being given the billing that it should be for the exact same structural reasons that you missed many of these obituaries many years ago." So yeah, I would . . .
Aminatou: Right. There's nothing more frustrating than hearing a media person say "Oh, the media's not covering XYZ." I'm like hmm, if only you had a place where you could do this work and get paid for it every day. [Laughs] Hmm.
Ann: Yeah, 100%. And shout-out to the historians like John Edwin Mason and the critics who are contributing to this conversation. There's a world in which it's totally fair to say National Geographic, go fuck yourself, right? You have a terrible history. And I also want to acknowledge the labor being done by people internally and externally to create some accountability here and to bring some of these details to light and prompt us all to think about it. Because lord knows it's not a requirement to put in that kind of effort to correct these institutions but I am incredibly appreciative of the people who are doing it.
Aminatou: Right, you know? And they are institutions. You can't say if you so-and-so. But National Geographic has been around 130 years and serves a really important purpose. [Laughs] It's probably not going away so we might as well learn how to work in the system right? I see you capitalism doing your dirty tricks, up to your dirty tricks again. But also I want to further knowledge and awareness of our world so let's do this together.
Ann: One hundo. Also there's a nice recipe here too for how to change at an institutional level, right? Like part of it is the politics of the moment change or the culture changes. But another part of it is people who are thinking about this come into power which is clearly the case with National Geographic. They solicit the help and expertise of people on the outside who maybe to previous people might've been threatening critics and say we welcome your perspective on what we can do better. There's a lot of elements to each of these stories that provides a nice blueprint moving forward.
Aminatou: Agreed.
(18:15)
Ann: Also don't think that I'm not continuing to watch the New York Times obituary section like a hawk to see who gets covered and who doesn't. I mean I definitely . . .
Aminatou: Right. Or who's going to be -- like, you know, who's going to be praised for their work and who's going to be praised for their recipes? We see you.
Ann: Right, yeah. I get a New York Times headlines email every day and the bottom three links are always obituaries. And let me tell you the number of days that all three of those obituaries are to men. It's like okay, you know, it's not just about looking backwards.
Aminatou: Have you considered that women never die Ann? [Laughter] Maybe that's what's going on here.
Ann: Right. The vampire women are never being -- right, yeah.
Aminatou: Exactly. We're all living in Age of Adaline.
Ann: Oh my god, I can't. I can't even.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh.
Ann: Did you just compare all women to Blake Lively?
Aminatou: I know, but I'm like shout-out Age of Adaline getting a name drop in 2018. Who would've thought? [Laughs]
Ann: Who would've thought?
Aminatou: Not even me, Age of Adaline's biggest fan. [Laughs]
Ann: Is Age of -- I never even saw it. Is Age of Adaline the reverse Benjamin Button or something?
Aminatou: Oh my god, it's that and everything else. Age of Adaline is an amazing movie. So you know how Blake Lively makes everything she's in look like an expensive perfume ad, like that's how beautiful she is? It is possible that she is at her most beautiful in this movie. So anyway, yeah, Adaline stars all of my favorite people. Basically at the turn of the 20th century she has a freak accident so she becomes ageless. She goes through many, many, many decades of being alone because, you know, she's like if I invest in a relationship then I'm a vampire. It's not going to work out. Then she meets Michiel Huisman, my boyfriend, and she falls for him. Then he takes her home and it turns out that her first love was her dad!
Ann: Okay, that's super weird.
(20:15)
Aminatou: Yeah! It's like wow, no, you've got to watch it. Kathy Baker is great in it, Harrison Ford. It's insane.
Ann: Okay, I just do not understand why that is romantic.
Aminatou: Ann, this is a bad movie. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page about this; it's a terrible movie. But it's a romantic fantasy film and the whole time you're like what is going on here? Also Ellen Burstyn, come on. I love it when a movie has a star-studded cast and it's bad.
Ann: Only the patriarchy would freeze a woman at age 29 before she's had a chance to peak. That is so rude. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know, but you know what? She's so smart about everything. She knows everything. She works at a library and everybody is like "How do you have such great recall?" and she can't be like "I lived through this." Also if you live in San Francisco it's like a beautiful San Francisco based movie. But I want to be clear this movie is bad. You know, some of us watch bad movies as comfort. This is very bad. But yeah.
Ann: Also -- yeah, okay. Maybe . . .
Aminatou: Ann, also have you seen Michiel Huisman? Excuse me.
Ann: I'm doing a Google right now. What would I know him from?
Aminatou: Daario Naharis in Game of Thrones and like . . .
Ann: You know I don't watch Game of Thrones.
Aminatou: I know. And various who movies that you've never seen. [Laughs] Also his name is Michael but spelled like Michiel, M-I-C-H-I-E-L.
Ann: Ooh, he's dimply!
Aminatou: Yeah! Like jaw porn, dimple porn. He's hot.
Ann: Okay, I get it.
Aminatou: He's one of those Europeans that's like actor, musician, singer/songwriter. He does all of it. Speaks like ten languages. That's not true.
(21:55)
Ann: Wow, and this IMDB photo is him in a turtleneck. We're full-circle. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I'm going to make you watch just specific episodes of his on Game of Thrones because he replaced somebody who is way too beautiful. This guy left and so they brought him on the next season and I'm so glad that they did that replacement but like yeah, he's . . . you know what Ann, you've seen him. He was in Treme. He was like that bad guy. You remember? That guy.
Ann: Oh yeah, yeah. Okay. You finally hit on a piece of relevant media to me. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Exactly. I'm like wait, I know we have . . . also you've seen him in Young Victoria.
Ann: Skipped that one.
Aminatou: World War Z.
Ann: Skipped that one.
Aminatou: I'm really outting myself here. He was also the hot boyfriend in Nashville.
Ann: Nope. [Laughs]
Aminatou: That Raina's a fool. She should've gone to Saint Lucia with him and Nashville would've ended there season one because they would've been happy together. But instead she let him go do Game of Thrones.
Ann: Can we back up though? Truly I've been waiting the entire time Game of Thrones has been running for a friend of mine to offer to basically watch on fast-forward, editing like -- and talking to me about what is happening/okay, here, you need to see Michael Huisman. You need to see this dragon's moment. Forward, forward, forward.
Aminatou: Ann, you know what we're doing when you're here then in April? That's what we're doing. You know, you should've just asked.
Ann: Oh my god, really? That would make me so happy. All I want is the visual Wikipedia version of Game of Thrones.
Aminatou: I've got you.
Ann: With like 80% less violence.
Aminatou: I've got you. The first few seasons it's very bad. We'll just watch hot sex scenes.
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: I'll skip the rapey ones because that's real. But in the last season it's the first time I guess that the CGI or whatever, the technology has caught up to my expectations. I watched like a dragon battle scene and literally my jaw was on the floor. I was like oh, is this what people who like video games feel like all the time? [Laughs] Is this the meotion that it's supposed to bring out in you? The technology has caught up to my expectations now so I can watch fantasy TV shows. It's cool.
(23:55)
Ann: I was already excited to visit you but now I'm just like wow, we have a mission. [Laughs]
Aminatou: We have a mission. I'm just going to show you the hunks of Game of Thrones.
Ann: Hunks and powerful women triumphing. That's the super cut that I want.
Aminatou: Yeah, don't worry. They're all evil. It's going to be great. Game of Thrones is the only TV show that you will root for an evil woman because you're like oh, you're winning.
Ann: Wow, this is going to help me understand literally every Shangela comment from RuPaul's Drag Race All Stars 3.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Shangela was robbed.
Ann: She was robbed! Oh my god. In what world -- in what world, that's all I have to say, does Shangela not win?
Aminatou: Shangela was robbed. Shangela was robbed and I'm very upset about it.
[Music and Ads]
Patti: Hi Ann! Hi Amina. Thank you so much for speaking with me last week. Art Patti and Build the Patriarchy HQ have been blowing up since I spoke with you guys. I've been getting so many incredible messages and have been ugly-crying reading them and I just wanted to share some of them with you. The messages that I'm about to read are actually from people who have filled out the quiz and then chose to forward their invoice on to their representative and here are some of the messages that they included along with their invoices.
(28:10)
"Women set themselves aside daily for the benefit of their families but to the detriment of themselves," which is so true. Here's another one: "I know my value. It's time our elected representatives operated like they know it too." This one I think says it really succinctly: "Household work is valuable and deserves a higher value placed on it by society. The best and most effective way to send that message is through legislation overhaul, preferably in the forms of state-provided childcare and healthcare, paid parental leave, and fair regulations for paid, sick, and vacation time." I am so grateful to everybody who has filled it out and of the 700 people who have taken the quiz about half of them have then gone on to send their invoices to their representatives. So that's a pretty significant number so we are growing. The matriarchy is here you guys.
Another thing that is kind of interesting is how many hours people worked on things. So when you take the quiz you say how many hours a week you spend cleaning, cooking, on household management and childcare. And the average for each of those was nine hours cleaning, eight hours cooking, eight hours of household management, and 80 hours a week of childcare which is amazing. That means that the average salary that women reported is just over $100,000 making the total amount due 72 million dollars as of Wednesday afternoon. So that is just for one year of work. It really goes to show just how much value we're doing that isn't being recorded anywhere. So keep taking the quiz everyone and I really look forward to seeing how many letters we can fax the patriarchy together. Thanks!
Aminatou: Speaking of Drag Race have you been following up with the RuPaul controversy recently?
Ann: Well I've read the series of interviews. I have not read a lot of side chatter about it but I definitely read the big interviews in question. Maybe you can summarize?
Aminatou: I love RuPaul. I love Drag Race. I have to be honest my fav is problematic. The summary is that it's been really fascinating to watch Ru kind of navigate through trans issues. It's definitely been an issue on Drag Race since the beginning of Drag Race. Remember when the email used to be called Shemail?
Ann: Indeed, right.
Aminatou: And people made a stink about it, appropriately so. And the show was very slow to change that and RuPaul was very dismissive of it.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: If it was up to me I wouldn't have changed it but the network has agreed to change it. Like that was kind of my first like hmm, this is not cool but I love this show so much. It gives me so much. I'm going to do that emoji of the monkeys, eyes, ears. I don't want to hear it. [Laughter]
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And that was the first time I was really challenged as a watcher but I think that Logo did right by everybody. And recently RuPaul has been on the interview circuit talking about basically how Drag Race is not a place for trans people.
Ann: Right.
(31:50)
Aminatou: Because it's not transgressive in the same way, which is an insane thing if you think about it.
Ann: Right, like that is the standard? Yeah.
Aminatou: Right. It's like really? This is a standard that makes no sense. Also, you know, the acronym is LGBTQ plus a lot of other things that we're all catching up to. But I'm like you know the T in LGBTQ has been there for a while. We should all be used to this by now. It's fine to be like this is challenging my own sense of how I understand the world but in 2018 you can't be like "The acronym is LGB" you know? Or LG. That does not work. That's not where we're at.
Ann: Right. It's also willfully ignorant of people who have been on Ru's own show. You know, Monica Beverly Hills and Peppermint. There is actually a history of trans performers on the show.
Aminatou: I'm so glad you brought up Peppermint for example because Ru's whole thing about Peppermint was that Peppermint had not gone through any kind of body modification while she was a Drag Race contestant. And I was like this is literally what trans people have been trying to teach us since the beginning of time, that it's not about what their bodies look like.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And we all fall into that dumb justification and whatever, and it is really shocking to see somebody whose politics I like so much and I appreciate fall back on these very tired stereotypes. But also, you know, mostly it was just a refusal to learn for a lot of cis people. I think it's easy to think that only straight people do this but that's not true. It's like here's RuPaul who is like an icon, you know, and a queer icon not being comfortable in that role. And I was like okay, this is a thing that we all need to unpack. Because RuPaul's also, you know, definitely later in the years [Laughs] so I understand where the reluctance comes from but it is an ignorant thing to not know that trans folks were there at the beginning of the Civil Rights movement and they've been there for gay rights since the beginning. This is not a new phenomenon. There were trans folks at Stonewall. To think that they cannot participate in drag culture is nuts to me.
(34:00)
Ann: Yeah, completely. And it's a very weird thing too for someone whose guiding light catchphrase is "You're born naked and the rest is drag" to be like policing what naked parts are required for drag or above and -- I don't know. It's just so incoherent with the deeper ethos and ideology that makes me and lots of other people love drag as an art form and love the show even despite problems like this, you know?
Aminatou: Yeah, I know. I don't know. For me it was a very humbling lesson and even your heroes mess up and you need to admit to it. And the other thing too that this all brought into perspective, you know, Drag Race is one of the most delightful corners of television. This is always great. If I could spend the rest of the Trump years doing this I'd probably be very happy just watching this exclusively. But it's just this idea that if you are somebody who has any kind of power over any kind of marginalized group it costs you nothing to listen to them. There's a world in which you can say "Okay, this challenges me and I don't quite understand it. But it's not that important to me to call the dumb email shemail and so I will accommodate you." Or say "It's hard for me to wrap my mind around these pronouns but you are a human being who is worthy of being listened to and worthy of everybody's full attention. I will try this for you." It literally costs us nothing.
Ann: Right. Is your low-stakes joke worth someone's emotional distress?
Aminatou: That's the thing I've been really struck by. I'm like it literally costs us nothing to be allies to so many people. It costs us nothing. Like you don't have to pat yourself on the back. We are not heroes. We're not being brave. We're not even even accommodating. We are just catching up with the world that we live in. And the other thing is that we ask other people to make these accommodations for us all the time! I'm like RuPaul, come on now. You're always on the interview circuit talking about how if you did not present the way you presented you would be a bigger deal on television and you'd be invited to the Emmy's and all this stuff. And I was like whoa, representation matters to you? Imagine how much more it matters to somebody who's more marginalized than you!
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: You know, and I'm guilty of that too. So it was just like a really good reminder.
Ann: You're right that this has been a long-running issue but the interview where a lot of this stuff that Ru has been criticized for more recently came up in this Guardian conversation from earlier this month. And the reporter went out of their way to kind of describe him as being a little nervous or a little cagey when these questions came up and clearly not really secure in the statements that he was making. Which is one thing, right? I understand feeling out of your depth when it comes to stuff like this even though as someone whose name is at the top of a television show like Drag Race you probably should've thought about this. I understand feeling like you are a little unsure in staking out a really strong position. However then after that interview dropped RuPaul tweeted -- and this is where I'm like you really lost me on this one, this is unacceptable.
Aminatou: Yeah.
(37:05)
Ann: Tweeted "You can take performance enhancing drugs and still be an athlete, just not in the Olympics."
Aminatou: I know, that was really messed up. Mm-hmm.
Ann: The implication being that someone getting surgery to transition like is the framework here would be unqualified to like -- I just can't even get over the number of levels of offensive that is. And how, like you were saying, it costs you nothing to accommodate. But this is worse than that. This is like stepping the other direction.
Aminatou: Yep.
Ann: I'm going to deliberately antagonize people who are feeling pain over my point-of-view about this. Ugh.
Aminatou: It's so unfortunate, like the defensiveness that we all feel, because the truth is that even for people who think that they're liberal and they're like "We're all little firecrackers and we're making a new way in the world," it's good to remind yourself that there are things that also scare you and there are things that you don't understand. Like I'm thinking about this wonderful actor Asia Kate Dillon who is on a show I love, Billions, hello.
Ann: Hello. [Laughs]
(38:10)
Aminatou: And on Billions plays Taylor, a gender non-conforming character and gave an incredible performance. Their name gets submitted to the Emmy's -- their pronouns are they/them -- get submitted to the Emmy's in the actress category. And it was actually a really good learning moment because Asia Kate Dillon in all of their graciousness wrote a letter addressing this and they're like "Here is how I feel about the words actress and actor. I would like to be categorized in the actor category." And the Emmy's did that. They were like "Thank you for this dialogue. This is a thing that we have never had to deal with before." And then a couple weeks later I was watching this Ellen interview. You know, work from home vibes, always watching the Ellen show. [Laughs] And Asia Kate Dillon is sitting on the Ellen show which is a big deal for any new actor.
Ann: Sure, it's huge.
Aminatou: And Ellen literally goes into the "I'm gay. I don't understand this pronouns thing. I don't understand this trans thing."
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: In a very -- kind of like I'm like whoa, Ellen, your mom? It's kind of like your parents embarrassing you this way. It took me aback too and I was like I just can't expect that everybody knows what's going on just because we all say that we share the same politics or whatever. But in that conversation -- I'll link to the clip in the show notes because I remember just being so annoyed and taken aback by Ellen's questioning and her reaction. But Asia Kate Dillon did not have to do this but they were very gracious and they explained it. Activism is like 50% education and 50% coalition building, right? You don't have to do it if you don't want to and you shouldn't have to explain your humanity to anyone. I feel like I learned a lot in that 15 minutes of TV and it was very humbling and I wish that no gender non-conforming people or trans people or anybody has to explain their humanity to the world. They should just be able to move on. We all have access to Al Gore's Internet and we can look this stuff up for ourselves.
(40:10)
Ann: Yeah, and there's also like -- there's a couple of different pieces to it, right? So there's like step one, even expecting someone to do the work to educate you beyond just expressing a preference. I feel like it's reasonable to ask someone how they're most comfortable being referred to or what pronouns they like or that sort of thing. Like that's easy and we should all be doing that. But you know you can also take the next step and do a Google and if you're unwilling to do that the least thing you can do is listen when someone's going out of their way to explain to you how they exist in the world and would like to be addressed. And if you can't do that even -- like that's the thing. There are tears here, right?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: If you can't even listen to and respect someone who's going out of their way to educate you and somehow you actively feel threatened or think that it's like -- make it all about you in the kind of example of that RuPaul tweet, it's just like wow, I really don't understand how you get all the way there. It is quite something. And you know to your point too about talking about this in terms of public figures like RuPaul and Ellen, and I think we've talked about this some as it relates to other issues like reproductive health. But if you are in constant defensive mode against people who are coming for your rights and your humanity, you're sort of like you see the value in okay, even though LGBTQIA everything encompases a lot of very different identities, issues, joys, struggles, everything, like we're talking about a lot of different experiences with that category, it's because the tendency to kind of want to be on the same team and fight against pressure and oppression that is kind of coming from the same place of bigotry, that can obscure a lot of those difference sometimes. Especially when you get to a point where you've got only a few very public or very powerful media figures who are a member of that community. And I think there's something going on too about what being under attack politically and culturally does to more nuanced conversations within a community, you know?
(42:15)
Aminatou: Right. And to just bring it back home we have this talk so much when we talk about black or white or men or women. It's always in a binary which is probably doing us a lot of harm. A lot of women-identifying folks listen to this show. Think about if our trans friends and family cannot feel safe and heard and listened to by us what do you think that that means for the world at large? We're the people that are supposed to get it and if we don't get it and we don't know how to have those conversations in respectful and loving ways it really cheapens the relationships that I think we have.
And I know that whenever we talk about gender dynamics on the show it's always men and women. There's always this assumption that we all get it. Like yes, we're very clear on who the problem is or what's going on or whatever. And it's like well, actually life's a little more complicated than that you know? We all have a little bit of power over somebody. So wanting good allies in whatever your struggle is means you have to be a good ally to other people.
Ann: Yeah, and being willing to examine the fact that you can both be as RuPaul clearly sees himself the kind of outsider in a lot of mainstream culture while at the same time having a ton of power. You're so right about that being something that's going on here. It's not just people like RuPaul who need to complicate their underestimating.
(43:42)
Aminatou: This is the first time in a long time that a celebrity I like has -- that I've been challenged like this. Because I don't really care about celebrities so it's never been an issue but this time I was like whoa, this is real. But I'm not cancelling RuPaul. [Laughs] What is happening here?
Ann: Just wait until I do a deep-dive on some Michiel Huisman interviews. You're just not ready. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Listen, I'm going to tell you what I say to Michiel Huisman's Instagram every day: shh, you look pretty. Don't talk. [Laughter] No, but you know what I mean?
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Sometimes we've got to be honest with ourselves. I love Drag Race, I hope that it's here for many iterations, but I also hope that it will change with the culture. And it's also a reminder that even something like Drag Race is not the best of what it could be and that's a lesson for me.
Ann: Yeah. I mean how are you listening and adapting and evolving constantly? That's the question. Individually, culturally, at a level of people who have their own shows and talk shows, how are you listening and adapting and changing to be responsive to the people who you do care about or at least purport to care about? But we assume you do care, you know?
Aminatou: Yeah. Let's all do better.
Ann: Michelle Obama voice, be better. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Be better. Be better. Yeah, no, I'm just trying to get free. Like we're all trying to get free so . . .
Ann: It's true. We could all Nat Geo ourselves. [Laughs]
[Music]
(45:50)
Aminatou: I'm like a walking cancer cliché. I'm just like learn everything, forgive everyone, eat, pray, love. That's the head space that I'm in.
Ann: I'm even worse. I'm like ever since my friend got cancer my eyes have really been opened.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Like not actually personally affected by literally anything but very high and mighty.
Aminatou: Ann, you have been personally affected by cancer. You are a caretaker.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: Listen, we talk about this a lot at therapy. And yeah, you know, we've already discussed this. I'm an impossible friend to help and now I have to fake being helped. And I think we found an equilibrium where everybody is happy. [Laughs] The Jenga tower is secure right now.
Ann: Oh my god, it totally -- I have to say though it has changed. I have another friend who in many ways is similar to you in terms of, you know, not always wanting to let me be my most helpful, friendly self. And I like -- I had a really good open conversation with her about it recently where I sort of said "Hello, this is a dynamic I witnessed. Let me love you."
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: And it was great! So, you know, yeah, we're all getting better as a result.
Aminatou: That's what I'm saying. We're all getting better; we're all fitting in. And here's the other thing: let your friends help you because wow, this shit is life-changing. I look good and I feel great all the time. And you could too if you slept 15 hours a day and let your friends take care of you. [Laughs] Like I have no problems right now. So yeah.
Ann: I mean we're laughing but for real I think that is a message a lot of people need to hear, like let your community care for you in the way that they are trying to. Yeah.
Aminatou: No, seriously. What's the worst that could happen? My therapist asks me this all the time whenever I come with my myriad of problems. I can't do this action because here will be the consequence. Everything is crazy. I've gamed it out to the point where I've put myself in a corner. And she always just says, she's like "What's the worst that can happen?" And then when you start thinking about these worst-case scenarios it's like oh, this is fine. Everything's fine. [Laughs] Part of it is I don't want to be the object of pity. And I didn't realize that so much of what I was doing was avoiding that, and instead I was actually like what's the worst that can happen if people feel sorry for you? First of all is that a real feeling and what's the worst that that means? And actually it's like oh, it's fine. It's totally fine.
(48:05)
Ann: But here's what's -- for me pity is this feeling that is not tied to action. If I want to help someone who I love it's not like I'm like oh, because I pity them. It's because I'm like -- like I feel empathy and sympathy, you know what I mean?
Aminatou: Of course. I hear that. But I also think the other place I had to challenge myself is that for somebody who is supposedly so bad at receiving help I also help people a lot.
Ann: Totally.
Aminatou: And I was like I'm not helping them from a condescending place. That's crazy. So it is condescending to give people help and not accept it. And I was like okay, here is a thing that I do that is wrong and I need to stop doing this.
Ann: Well if you give people help but you don't want to accept it you're kind of insisting on a friendship imbalance right?
Aminatou: Exactly.
Ann: You're sort of -- yeah. And that's the kind of thing too that I feel very grateful that that's something you and I can talk about, because I don't know, I have my own shit that I don't want help with too right? Like I think this is something everybody has.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yeah.
Ann: Everybody has. There have totally been times in my life when I'm like I'm so upset about this, there's no way I'm talking to anybody else about it even though it's obviously what would help the most.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: It's all a balance.
Aminatou: It is.
Ann: Like putting into the friendship bank, withdrawing from the friendship bank.
Aminatou: It's real. It's like some years are going to be Amina dramatic years and some years will be Ann dramatic years. So far I feel like I've had the last five years so I'm ready for you to go into a full crisis. [Laughs]
Ann: The pain is coming for me, don't worry. I think about that all the time.
Aminatou: So you can take this pressure away from me. But I am equipped, Ann. I am equipped. I'll catch you.
Ann: Listen . . .
Aminatou: But I think that's the thing to remember, I want to know you for a long time so clearly we've got to pace ourselves you know?
Ann: Oh my god, completely. Completely. Yes, that's how I feel. I'm also like this is just money in the bank for my future drama, my future needs. [Laughter]
Aminatou: I'm going to take such good care of you baby. What? [Laughs]
Ann: I know. You are going to be fiercely mama bearing me and I can't even wait.
Aminatou: I'm going to air lift you to Bora Bora and be like nobody is touching Ann. [Laughs]
Ann: Stop.
(50:10)
Aminatou: To my lair of scientists and help.
Ann: I just pictured you in the Ivanka turtleneck with a test tube.
Aminatou: First of all I already told you turtleneck is a lab violation.
Ann: Okay, but you're just in there supervising clearly right?
Aminatou: Fair, fair, fair. It's fine. I feel like we talk about this on CYG, about being a brash, bold lady. There's no shame in getting help. You need all the tools you can get.
Ann: 100%. Okay, on that note I feel great.
Aminatou: I feel great too. I'm going to go ask for more help from my friends because it's snowing outside and I am not leaving the house.
Ann: Amazing. I'm going to go eat lunch and meet with my bookkeeper.
Aminatou: Oh my god. Whew. You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac. You the best, baby! See you on the Internet.
Ann: See you on the Internet.