Watching White People
7/31/15 - We discuss whether free dongin’ is like free boobin’, nudist resorts, menstrual sea sponges, and female viagra. Plus, the shortcomings of both white people and White People (the documentary).
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Rich Gang - Lifestyle ft. Young Thung, Rich Homie Quan
Disclosure - Omen ft. Sam Smith
Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend
TRANSCRIPT: WATCHING WHITE PEOPLE
Ann: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Aminatou: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Ann: I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: [Laughs] And I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: On this week's agenda, free donging, is it a thing? Do we like it? Going natural, nudism, and other things we're not sure we should take advantage of. This week in menstruation we talk about natural sponges and other Etsy-sold menstruation devices, the female Viagra on its way to maybe widespread use, and White People, a new documentary and also a phenomenon in our daily lives.
[Theme Song]
Ann: We got a long email about free boobin which seems still relevant as it is still summer.
Aminatou: Oh my god, I'm definitely free boobin right now. That was like the first thing on the agenda today.
Ann: I'm not free boobin but I'm like very non-supportive shelf braing it and I feel like that's the next best thing.
Aminatou: [Laughs] It's like a little security blanket for your boobs.
Ann: Totally. It's just like a little extra band of fabric that's like, you know, it's the next best thing to free boobin would be an incredible logo for a very chill bra. Okay, so we got this email regarding free boobin. It says "Bravo for discussin' free boobin" -- discussing free boobin, I dropped that G of my own accord -- "As a 34DDD woman I only ditch the bra at bedtime."
Aminatou: Whoa.
(2:00)
Ann: "But I so wish I could go braless more often. After nursing babies and lots of 10K runs my girls have been low-hanging fruit for some time now. They remind me of my first boobs I ever saw when I was eight years old. Those belonged to Mrs. Holmstead, my art teacher," interlude about Mrs. Holmstead's boobs.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And then she writes "I feel like if we're going to talk about free boobin and women feeling uncomfortable it we should also talk about free dickin. So many guys don't wear underwear and their junk is on display and it seems perfectly normal. Don't get me wrong, this does not bother me. In fact I will tell you once I was watching Lester Holt . . ." Do you know who Lester Holt is?
Aminatou: Ann. [Laughs]
Ann: I had to look it up.
Aminatou: That is crazy. I know who Lester Holt is because he's a black man who finally got the job that he deserves.
Ann: I had to Google him. Anyway, so she says parenthetically "Who I think is a very handsome man, and I swear he was not wearing underwear beneath his very tailored dress pants."
Aminatou: [Laughs] This is making me so uncomfortable. Lester Holt is like our successful uncle. This is not cool.
Ann: It's just -- she says "It's just this feels like a double-standard. When a woman with imperfect boobs -- read, not fake -- goes braless they're subject to a flapjack woman label. This is unfair." So basically this is a call for . . . I mean I don't like . . . it's like a call to judge, you know, other types of free-swinging genitalia? But I don't know. I don't know how I feel about the topic of free dongin.
Aminatou: No, I'm not down for like . . . I'm not down for manufactured outrage over people being comfortable. Also now all I'm thinking about is Lester Holt not wearing underwear and it's making me very uncomfortable so I feel personally attacked by this email. Remember how, what's his name -- Don Draper . . .
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: There was that whole controversy about how you can always see the outline of his dick through his clothes? Which I'm just like excuse me, you're putting him in tight polyester '60s clothes. Let the man breathe. But I love how . . .
(4:18)
Ann: But wasn't there also some incident in the wild where it was very visible?
Aminatou: Yeah. He's a big dude. I get it. But I loved how upset he was about it because people were making all these jokes online then finally I think somebody asked him and he was just like "Fuck you." And I was like yes, that is the appropriate way to react when people talk about your body to your face. Like that's crazy.
Ann: Right. Totally. But also it's worth noting that the sort of prevailing style in men's undergarments is not for them to wear a restrictive cup at all times around their genitals.
Aminatou: Yo, I don't understand male underwear. It feels to me like it is -- it's crazy. Like whenever I see dudes in tight pants I'm always like I don't know how you're doing that but god bless.
Ann: You know what I do love about much male underwear, not all of it, instead of a seam up the butt it has seams on either side so it doesn't wedge up there. Do you know what I'm talking about? [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, no, the vents. Ann, my period underwear is men's underwear. [Laughs]
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Like it's all I wear. It makes me feel so secure and happy.
Ann: I just love that not up-the-butt seam. It's great.
Aminatou: It's like after years of wearing Fruit of the Loom granny panties I invested in some men's underwear and I will tell you it's just very comforting and great.
Ann: Ugh, great.
Aminatou: This is -- man, Lester Holt. It's making me so uncomfortable. I'm just like no, I refuse to believe this narrative.
Ann: Maybe everyone has had a moment with some . . . I mean it might not be Lester Holt. I think you can substitute in your head Jon Hamm or someone else who you have had a Google moment about their free dongin or perceived free dongin.
(6:10)
Aminatou: I know. And I don't think that there's actually a double standard when it comes to this. I think sometimes your clothes are too tailored or are ill-fitting and it's fine. Oh man, this is reminding me that I have an email in my inbox that's from some nude camp junket and I'm like 49% considering saying yes to it.
Ann: Wait, so it's a junket like they want to convince you to tell your friends about . . .
Aminatou: Yeah, they're just like naturism. Naturism is big and we want influencers. [Laughs] And I'm like I saw the pictures of the place and I'm like this place is nice. I could go naked to this place, that's cool, for a couple days' vacation.
Ann: Here's what I don't get about nudists: aren't they just cold all the time?
Aminatou: I mean, yes and . . . [Laughs] Yes and no.
Ann: I like how you're answering in the first person.
Aminatou: Maybe I'll investigate. Maybe I'll investigate for Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: Please do because I feel like I would just be cold all the time. I mean maybe in the dead of summer not so much but for most of the year.
Aminatou: I mean, okay, so there are some -- they sent out a packet. Maybe I can try to pull it up, and they tell you. So one thing that I've realized through the literature for this is that it is very impolite not to carry around a towel if you are a nudist. You can't just sit.
Ann: Oh, right.
Aminatou: People are like "Excuse me, that's my nice furniture." And I was like okay, that makes sense.
Ann: You don't want second-hand non-consensual genital contact vis-à-vis . . .
Aminatou: Exactly. People don't want to see also your sweat everywhere. And I don't know, this also says you can wear a sarang I guess if you want. It's like you get naked if you want to be naked.
Ann: Okay.
(7:55)
Aminatou: But you can't wear full clothes. That makes people uncomfortable. They're really trying to tamper down on the hook-up culture of it -- this is for real, it's a family event -- and I'm like hmm, I'm skeptical but his campground looks really nice so maybe? Who knows.
Ann: Like for children as well.
Aminatou: Yeah. They're just like everybody is welcome, because it's a lifestyle. Now all I'm thinking is about the rap lifestyle -- the rap song Lifestyle. Yeah, I guess so. I love how they've turned me into a shill for nudism in one email. [Laughs] But it's the least-annoying PR email I've gotten in months and I'm like oh, this person . . .
Ann: People are like "Hey, try nudism."
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like hey, this is really nice. So who knows? Shout out, Sheila. [Laughs]
Ann: Good PR work, Sheila.
Aminatou: I know. I just imagine Sheila to be a very classy older lady who's like please come be an influencer for naked things and I'm like I will look into this.
Ann: She made a good choice in emailing you. You are gettable, I won't lie.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I mean I would've been like delete immediately.
Aminatou: I'm just really down for like three fancy vacations and I won't lie I just . . . it's not the cause. She could've been emailing me about other things. This place just looks really nice and I was like man, maybe there will be other nice people there, but mostly I'll get a free vacation out of this. Like I said, 49% considering it so it's still a no for now. Who knows? [Laughs] I'll do some more research.
Ann: Okay. We'll do a check-in on what percentage you're at next time.
Aminatou: Oh my god, how terrifying. I mean you've got to do it soon before it starts getting cold, Ann.
Ann: This is what I'm saying. July and August are the only time I would even consider it in most of the country.
Aminatou: Okay, I'll let you know.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Sheila, if you listen to Call Your Girlfriend just pitch me harder.
Ann: This is a challenge.
Aminatou: It is a challenge.
Ann: Maybe Sheila's bestie . . .
(10:00)
Aminatou: Ann, if you saw how nice this place was I'm pretty sure you would consider it too. So many outdoor showers, come on.
Ann: I mean I do love an outdoor shower. Why does the outdoor shower feel so luxurious when really it's not? It's like the opposite.
Aminatou: I feel like my richest person at the outdoor shower in Esalen which I basically part-time live at now, so let me tell you, it's just the best.
Ann: Ugh. Yeah, anywhere. I mean I'm not even discriminating about outdoor showers. It's really just a spigot outside a building and it still feels . . .
Aminatou: It's like outdoor living in general feels luxurious. Ugh, rich people have everything I want.
Ann: It's true.
Aminatou: I'm going to look into this.
Ann: It's true. I just put a picnic table on my back patio so it's now usable space and that feels luxurious.
Aminatou: Oh my god, so good.
Ann: Yeah. It doesn't take much.
[Music]
Aminatou: What's the other update we have this week? Did you see the naturals? But like we're prophets on Call Your Girlfriend, one. There's this feature on Mashable about natural menstrual sponges and I screamed. I couldn't even read the whole thing because I was too busy screaming.
Ann: Okay, where's what I don't get: in the photo they look spiny. They look so rough. Like I would not want to put that anywhere inside my body.
Aminatou: They look like luffas. It's like putting a little luffa in your . . .
Ann: I do not need that exfoliated.
Aminatou: Yeah, I'm just like this is a part of my body that I don't need exfoliated. Also because I didn't read the review because I'm a monster there's also -- what are the oils that come with . . .
(12:00)
Ann: I don't know, I didn't go super-deep on this. I did not delve in.
Aminatou: I just got terrified. I was like I'm sorry, no. Also I feel like I would consider a diva cup before I put an actual sponge in my vagina and since that didn't work for me I don't think so.
Ann: Do you boil the sponge?
Aminatou: Also great sentence. "In 1980 the University of Iowa laboratory found traces of fun stuff like sand, grit, bacteria, and various other materials in 12 menstrual sea sponges." Delete.
Ann: Ugh. Shout-out to the University of Iowa for doing the lord's work on natural menstrual products and testing.
Aminatou: Oh my god. It's like I look at this, like my body just shrivels up. I can't handle it.
Ann: Okay, now I'm looking at this as well and apparently it gets "very soft and malleable."
Aminatou: Oh, also pause, they're advocating buying this on Etsy. You know I love Etsy as a platform but I am not putting anything in my vagina that comes from an artisanal shop. No thank you.
Ann: I'm sure there are all kinds of artisanal things for your vagina on Etsy. I'm sure that's a whole subcategory.
Aminatou: Yeah, and they're not fucking FDA approved. That's for sure.
Ann: [Laughs] Ugh.
Aminatou: People are being reckless with their vaginas out here.
Ann: I feel like given my track record for replacing kitchen sponges, which is not as bad as some roommates I've had in the past but is not anything I'm proud of, any kind of sponge-based contraceptive or menstrual I'm just a little, hmm, not into.
Aminatou: I've been watching a lot of period dramas right now.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And any time anybody has sex this is all I can think of. I'm just like what are you doing for contraception? What are you doing for menstruation? You live in the worst time in the world. Stop this. And this just seems to me like something -- like sponges, like shit that people in the medieval ages would put in their bodies because we hadn't invented tampons yet.
(14:05)
Ann: Well, also all medieval sex clearly withdraw method, right? Contraceptively-speaking. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Ugh. Not according to Hollywood.
Ann: Maybe they just . . .
Aminatou: I was like get out of there! Get out of there! Get out of there now! [Laughs] Like it's so . . . it always starts looking so sexy and by the end of it I'm in hives. I'm just like oh, no, what are you going to do? They haven't invented Planned Parenthood yet. It's so stressful.
Ann: It's the dark ages. Actually the dark ages.
Aminatou: I know. I feel like I'm living in the dark ages. I can't even process what was fully happening before now. This is crazy. Anyway, long story short, Etsy Ecos sea sponges, proceed with caution.
Ann: I feel like these details, speaking of the dark ages, I think of us sometimes as like old ladies and we're going to be like "The options for contraception were these six unappealing things and that's all we had in my day and you're so lucky to have a million more options." I really, really hope that's how it goes down. Like you're so lucky you don't have to consider Etsy to purchase alternative menstrual products.
Aminatou: I hope so. [Laughs] Oh my -- like people are crazy. You cannot buy things that go inside your body on Etsy. Like a smudge stick, yes, but this is too far.
Ann: Right, like you can cleanse your workspace or something but not your vagina with products from Etsy. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah. I'm just like buy a fancy candy. But the minute it says insert inside of body cavity, step away.
Ann: Right. Ugh.
(15:55)
Aminatou: Yeah, our government does not have a good track record of taking care of this, but you know, sometimes you've just got to look at the FDA and say "Please help me help myself because this is not cool."
Ann: So speaking of press releases I've been on all kinds of lists for people both pro- and against Flibanserin which is what is being or attempted to be passed by the FDA as a sort of female Viagra. I don't know who is spending money on both sides of this PR campaign but I get an email a week from each side of this debate.
Aminatou: Whoa.
Ann: Yeah. And it's like . . .
Aminatou: That is -- that's crazy.
Ann: It is and it isn't. It's one of those things where I'm like okay, cool, if it helps some women that's awesome. I'm glad it's out there. But also, you know, FDA, not an awesome track record for thoroughly vetting products and drugs that relate to women's health or vetting them too thoroughly if they seem political. Actually I'm like hmm, this seems like the science is kind of dubious but I also don't know how to feel about it. I guess I'm not reading my press releases closely enough or one of them needs to hire Sheila immediately.
Aminatou: Let me tell you, Sheila will make you 49% closer to being onboard.
Ann: To being on female Viagra?
Aminatou: Yeah. Has the -- what is it called, Flibanserin?
Ann: Flibanserin.
Aminatou: Has it been approved by the FDA yet?
Ann: I think it has made it through . . .
Aminatou: Is that what the fight is, or is it that they . . .
Ann: It's made it through some of the major hurdles. So the FDA previously rejected the female libido pill -- in fact, twice since 2010 -- because it was concerned about side effects. But women who took the drug reported "experience between one-half and one more satisfying sexual event per month." [Laughs]
Aminatou: [Laughs] Oh man. Calling it a sexual event is just like . . .
(17:55)
Ann: I know. It's like that was a 4.5 on the Richter scale. Sexual event. Or no, just tremors. Not a full sexual event.
Aminatou: I guess one sexual event is better than no sexual event if you want sexual events, I guess, but this is . . . makes me sad.
Ann: Right. So I don't know, it's interesting because both sides are kind of framing it obviously in terms of feminism. I mean one side is like men have had Viagra forever. Why shouldn't women have a sexual aid alternative that's over-the-counter to increase libido? The other side is this is totally unproven. Women are not responsive to this and it has a lot of side effects.
Aminatou: Okay, somebody . . . as long as they're studying it, I'm down. I still remember when Viagra -- the male Viagra came on market . . . the male Viagra, LOL. [Laughs] When Viagra came on market the Time Magazine cover for it and how my mom wouldn't let us read it.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: It came to the house and she threw it away. She was like "This is trash."
Ann: She's like you can't read about old penises.
Aminatou: Right? And I still fished it out and tried to figure out what it was and I just could not . . . I was like I don't understand. I don't understand what's going on here. If you want a good laugh you should Yahoo Answers "Can women take Viagra?" and it's always like "At your own risk."
Ann: [Laughs] Yeah. I mean I don't know.
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Ann: It's hard. I think this is a real thing, and this is the part of me that I am obviously very, very pro-hormonal contraception and pro- the full schedule of vaccines. But when I think about the shit the FDA has pulled in the past and the way the medical establishment has generally treated things that involve women's health I sort of get health feminist objections to this stuff. Not that I agree with it but I understand.
Aminatou: No, I know. I know. I feel the same way as you but the alternative is getting loose bits of sea sponge stuck in your cervix.
Ann: [Laughs]
(20:05)
Aminatou: Or, you know, Berkeley moms telling you what to do. Or Jim Carrey telling you about . . .
Ann: Right, like Etsy healthcare. Artisanal healthcare.
Aminatou: Yeah, I'm like better the devil that you know. It's like better the devil that you know on this case. Ugh, I hate it when I have to defend the government.
Ann: I know. No, I mean I'm with you. I definitely come down on the side of the FDA approval process even though I know it's completely corrupted by big pharma and all of that stuff.
Aminatou: Yeah. Also I know some rad ladies that work at the FDA.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: I'm like we're in good hands. It's just sometimes there's massive fuckups but it's all from a place of love.
Ann: I also want to know where all of the journalists writing about this find women who have taken the drug and say that it helps them. I swear to god it's like that one PR email that I never open where they're like "We will introduce you to the one woman who has taken this and experienced . . ."
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like how does that work even that somebody would say "Yes, please bypass all of my HIPAA rights to talk about my medical self." It feels really slimy sometimes to me, like getting PR emails about medical things. I can't handle it.
Ann: Right. Well, and then it's also . . .
Aminatou: There's like a ton of money in that stuff.
Ann: Right. And then you know how it happens where even if you are a somewhat credible journalist who doesn't just print the press release, which happens, they will totally be like "Oh, we'll set you up with a source. We'll set you up with a woman who's taken this and really wants it to be legal. We'll set you up with a doctor who did the study that says it's safe." It's kind of like there are degrees of easy reporting that you can do with this stuff and I am definitely not well-versed enough in the intricacies of the FDA approval process to know how to read the articles about the drug and really critique like oh, okay, this makes sense. This stage in the process means it's probably safe versus I don't know . . .
(22:05)
Aminatou: How about this? If I go to nude camp you have to try pink Viagra.
Ann: Oh my god, deal.
Aminatou: [Laughs] And we can report back. You can report back about all of the sexual events. Is that what it was?
Ann: Oh my god, it was one to one-half more sexual events per month.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Okay.
Ann: Oh my god. I also need to do -- I feel like I need a control test where one month it's female Viagra and the next month it's just like two extra glasses of wine.
Aminatou: Right? You're like hi, I had two gin and tonics. Here's what happened.
Ann: Right, exactly. And the effects were similar to one female Viagra.
Aminatou: Oh my god. Just the full-body shivers right now. I can't handle any of this. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god, now I have to email the PR -- if you go to nude camp I have to dig up those emails and email the PR person and be like "Can I take it/get a fake prescription?"
Aminatou: Listen to your body, see how you feel.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And then we'll get there eventually. Okay.
Ann: In the meantime I'll be working on my libido with alcohol and marijuana, the classic ways.
Aminatou: Right? You're just like the classic seduction . . .
Ann: Exactly. [Laughs] Exactly.
[Music and Ads]
(25:14)
Aminatou: So anyway, we watched the white People documentary done by Jose Antonio Vargas. It's part of this overall MTV campaign whose name I can't remember. I keep calling it Think Different but it's . . . [Laughs]
Ann: It's called Look Different, but close.
Aminatou: It's like some crazy -- they're just like we're pandering to millennials right now. And this was the race segment. I think it's like 40 minutes and it's interviews that are intersped with portraits of specific white people and what's going on, like white millennials and what's going on in their lives.
Ann: Specifically white millennials who are in regular contact with people who are not white, which let's be real, is not all white millennials.
Aminatou: Yes.
(26:05)
Ann: Like he specifically chooses a white guy who goes to a historically black college and white teachers on an Oglala Sioux reservation and white people who are not just hanging out with other white people.
Aminatou: Yeah. I have seen generally positive reviews for this which I guess is good, you know? It's branded as a conversation. I'm making the biggest air quotes right now. Conversation.
Ann: I feel like I've seen mixed reviews.
Aminatou: About race.
Ann: I feel like I've seen some pretty negative reviews.
Aminatou: Really? I've mostly seen where people are like oh, it's good that we're doing this, but also I haven't really looked hard. Personally for me I was like great, I'm glad that this exists but also I'm like then what?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Like, one, I don't think that it's as groundbreaking as people think it is. It's these kinds of campus-style race conversations have been going on forever. Peggy McIntosh is the grandmother of doing these kinds of conversations and then Tim Wise. I personally have participated in them and facilitated all of them. I think that if you go to a decent college you will be exposed to this kind of stuff. So on the groundbreaking aspect of it, it's very yawn. But I think what was more interesting to me is who actually is the audience for this product? Because it didn't speak to me at all, which is fine, right? But still there were still aspects of it that I found were really surprising.
Ann: It's just not much time. It's just not enough time.
Aminatou: Right. It's like let's talk about race in 40 minutes. [Laughs]
Ann: Yes. I mean it's also weird. So I watched it -- I went to a screening of it here in L.A. So I watched it all the way through without commercials or anything. It was just kind of like fade to the title screen and then right back in. Then I watched the first half of it again online with the commercial breaks and it's just so strange to be sort of having what is -- or should be a pretty serious conversation or a pretty, if not heavy, at least meaningful conversation interspersed with Fiat ads. I don't know. Obviously advertising is real but there was something about it, the way it's packaged and the way that it was shown, that I was like okay, this is not the venue that is maybe most productive to have this conversation.
(28:30)
Aminatou: I mean first of all it was shorter than an episode of Catfish, like if we're going to contextualize it in MTV terms. And surprisingly more lightweight than Catfish itself. Like Catfish has way more -- like comes with way more nuance about race, and even just like insights on people than I thought this did. One thing I kept going back to when I was watching it is that it reminded me so much of being in college because of the tears. You start talking about the race and literally there's tears everywhere all the time. And I have to text all of my old diversity facilitators and I was like "You guys have to watch this." It just took me back ten years in a way that was both uncomfortable and amazing at the same time. But yeah, I think you're really right about the MTV tone-deaf programming.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: But, yeah, you know, one thing that I wish is I did know younger millennials kind of to talk to about this with because for me it really did not resonate. The things that I did find surprising were some of the statistics on this. That 50% of young white millennials feel discriminated against?
Ann: Yeah. I mean what?
(29:45)
Aminatou: I wanted to throw my phone at the screen. I was just like what? In what world? And I think the point that Jose Antonio Vargas made that was really powerful was that it's only at times like this that white people feel racialized.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And that's what's really hard for them. And I had never thought about that. I was like oh, this is the first time that somebody's asking you to speak as an individual for your whole race?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And surprise, surprise, it's really hard. Or, you know, it's like white people get to be individuals but people of color, we're always some weird, monolithic block. And that took a while for that to -- for me to be clued into that. And I was like oh, this is why you're so upset. It's like welcome. I'm not upset anymore because it's literally my entire life.
Ann: Right. And I think there's this thing going on as well where it's like it is about you if you're a white person in the world and so when I tell you these statistics that way this about white people I'm referring to you. You're part of that even if you didn't raise your hand and say "I feel discriminated against." Like white people as a category, that includes you and you have to if not own it speak up and talk about it. That is something that, I don't know, probably not college-age but when I was younger if someone had asked me to do that and think about that it would've changed how I felt about things. Like I actually think that the heart of the project makes a certain amount of sense. I also say this as someone who grew up in a 95% white town so obviously it's different depending on where and how you grow up as a white person. But it was interesting because also at the screening he's starting a new project with the LA Times that is called Emerging Us and it's about . . . it's going to be . . .
Aminatou: I always pronounce it Emerging U-S. Thank you for clarifying that for me.
Ann: I did too. I did too until I went to this event. [Laughs]
Aminatou: God, they need better branding.
Ann: Right. Which is interesting, and that sort of idea that emerging populations being sort of fast-growing demographics or the biggest immigrant groups which in the US right now are Latinos and Asian-American Pacific Islanders, it's not specifically about black people in that demographic context, it felt a little weird in the documentary where he would kind of give stats about, you know, these groups are growing, and almost framing it like a new phenomenon when someone stood up at the Q&A and was like "Um, you didn't really talk about anti-blackness. You talked about whiteness but you didn't talk about anti-blackness." And he was . . .
Aminatou: I mean, yeah.
(32:30)
Ann: One, he was like yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that on our site, but he didn't really address the choices he made in the documentary with regard to that.
Aminatou: That is really surprising because that was one of the things that was really striking to me is everybody references racism in terms of white and black but it's surprisingly very lightweight on anti-blackness.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And it's like no matter what race you are in this country anti-blackness is at the root cause of why you feel discriminated against in any way, shape, or form.
Ann: Yeah. And, you know, the questions that he got after the Q&A, even people who weren't asking specifically about anti-blackness, were saying stuff like "We're using the terms black and white. We're using that framing." And so he said "Well, we made this before Charleston, blah, blah, blah," but to me that's not fully . . . I mean it's not like oh, yeah, so this whole anti-blackness thing had just happened. Like it's like no, no, no.
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like anti-blackness only happened on the Internet in 2014. Like . . .
Ann: Right. It's happened since then, yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, it's not . . . some of the vignettes, like the student vignettes were infuriating to me, like that one girl, Katie, who was the honor roll student who was talking about how all the students of color are grabbing all the scholarship money which is such a deeply-ingrained thing in white students.
(33:55)
Ann: I am actually shocked that he got her to go on the record and speak that point-of-view to the camera. I'm surprised.
Aminatou: I'm not shocked because that's one of the things -- I think it's also because I worked in college admissions. That is one thing that I think white kids are universally -- that is a microaggression that they perpetrate a lot.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: That's like the baseline of a lot of college students' tension. Like there's even a case at the Supreme Court right now that's basically, you know, around affirmative action stuff. And this girl, when I was listening to her talk about it, again I wanted to throw everything at the television. And listening to her friends just say like "Hi, I'm a person of color and I don't have a scholarship," or the actual fact of the statistic that white people are 40% more likely to receive scholarships -- like private scholarships.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And she's like "Oh, I guess that could change my mind." And I'm just like ugh, I am so . . . it was so frustrating to me. Then realizing that white people hold these really racially-awful stereotypes and still have friends of color.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Like, you know, any time their friends would speak that was really heartbreaking to me. You can be friends with white people, but Leslie Morris has this amazing review of Ted 2 where he just says this phrase that I've been sitting with for weeks where he talks about the trapdoor of racism that you can fall down at any point when you're friends with white people, and that's all I was thinking about listening to some of these kids talk.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: I'm like you're friends with black people and you're friends with Latinos and you're friends with Native kids and you still think these terrible things about them.
Ann: Right, that you don't even recognize are terrible things about them because you've so disassociated your beliefs about scholarships from your beliefs about your friends who are in the room with you and you can't connect those things to a bigger experience and structural problems. Yeah.
(36:02)
Aminatou: Yeah. But again realizing it's because it's like for the first time a lot of white people are just presented . . . you know, it's like they're presented with real-world facts.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And you would think that they would have a little bit of empathy and think oh, this is how it is for many groups before. And instead nobody gets that at all. At the beginning also he says something to the white kids. He's like "Oh, you guys don't talk about race, but we talk about race all the time when we talk about you." And I was like god, that is so true. It is so massively true. And just what are white people talking about?
Ann: White people do talk about race. I wouldn't say that when white people are in a room with only white people there's never a conversation about race. But I do think the tenor of it is really different, I mean in the same way the tenor is really different if it's a space where there are no white people and the conversation is about race. I think he made a choice and it's an interesting one but I'm like wow, how is this documentary different if it's a conversation led by and dominated by people of color? How is it different if it's exclusively white people? How is it different as a mixed conversation? I don't know. I'm just curious about it.
Aminatou: I mean have you seen some of the Peggy McIntosh footage of her workshops?
Ann: I haven't.
Aminatou: You really should. Mean, Peggy McIntosh is a fucking G. And the contrast between how cajoling Jose Antonio Vargas was, you know . . . any time a white person would say something crazy he was always like "You know what? Many people feel like you." And he was so in this mode of making them feel comfortable about their hateful beliefs.
Ann: He let his eyebrows do the talking but his mouth was so nice, the things he said.
Aminatou: I know. He's just like "I'm so glad to be sitting having dinner at this table of racist parents. Let's discuss." It's part of the problem. It's really hard as a black woman to watch somebody reassure a white person and really guide them through their fucked-up ideas they have where kids of color don't have . . . they don't have . . . nobody gives them that comfort.
Ann: Right.
(38:08)
Aminatou: And you learn really fast and you learn really hard. You learn when the police stop you and you learn when somebody says a slur at you. And nobody . . . it's like people of color are never allowed to be kids, but here are these white kids, and everybody's like "Oh, they're young. Maybe they'll change." And I really wish that he had really challenged that part of himself because that was really hard to stomach.
Ann: But here's a serious question. I 100% agree with all of that, but you know, is there any way just given the very real dynamics of power and privilege to give that sort of like "Okay, figure it out for yourself. You have to learn this instantly" kind of education about these hard realities to white people? I don't know, you know?
Aminatou: And I guess that goes even to the deeper point of do these conversations actually change anything at all, you know?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And I don't know that we know that.
Ann: Yeah, and that's, again, one of the questions was like "Hey, this seems really cool to talk about race. I talk about race all the time. Glad MTV is doing it. But what is this going to change structural racism, which we all know is the real problem here?" And he was like "Read more on Emerging Us." [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, there's even in one of the conversations, the early one about the guy who's like "I can be gay and southern and whatever . . ."
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: There's this incredible scene, and he goes to an HBCU which I'm like oh, cannot handle. But he invites his black friends over to meet his white friends, right? And one of his friends makes a black woman cry by invoking the word ghetto like crazy. That conversation to me was very illustrative of the problem because once the black woman starts to cry the white friend, I think Cody was his name or whatever, he goes to hug her and tells her it's all going to be okay. Then he makes this comment of like "Oh, people say that black people are ghetto, but I can get ghetto real quick too." And I was like no, actually, you know what would've been really constructive there is challenging your friend on the fact that you just made a black woman cry on TV.
Ann: Right.
(40:20)
Aminatou: You know, instead of saying . . . and I was like this is perfect of the limitations of these kinds of friendships and these kinds of interactions and conversations. And that was early on at the beginning. And I was like yeah, this is not going to go well.
Ann: Well, and also I was wondering at that scene, Jose Antonio Vargas is sitting in the room. He had a choice. He could've intervened and been like "Wow, let's talk about the fact that you just made this woman cry. Do you feel responsible for that?" You know, actually sort of inserting a little bit of accountability. Again, it's tightly-edited to be an hour. Like I have no idea . . .
Aminatou: It's tightly-edited, right? I don't know Jose Antonio Vargas. I don't know what he actually believes about anti-blackness and whether he understands the distinctions between those things. That whole scene -- I was still thinking about it this morning -- I was like this is why this will never change.
Ann: Well, and that scene also gave me reality TV vibes where I was like okay, are you letting this play out because you think this is good TV and you want footage of a black woman crying to be part of how this conversation was so hard-hitting? Format-wise I don't feel like they instilled a lot of viewer trust that it was like the point was a constructive -- you know, a conversation that really addressed the underlying issues with whiteness.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, I'm just like great, I'm glad that girl got Race 101 but it doesn't mean she's going to approve your credit when you're applying to get a house one day.
Ann: Right.
(41:50)
Aminatou: All of these personal realizations are great but systemically I don't know where this is moving us forward. Ugh, this is so depressing. It's so depressing.
Ann: Yeah. I mean . . .
Aminatou: Maybe the answer is just when there's more of us than white people and the tables have turned everything will be good.
Ann: And that's sort of his underlying point.
Aminatou: I mean I joke about this but I really think that a thing that fuels a lot of white racism is this fear of being in the minority because they know how bad they treat minorities. And they're just like oh my god, when it's our turn they're going to fucking slaughter us. And it's like well, only time will tell.
Ann: And it's interesting the way that's in the documentary as well. It's definitely not phrased as like a threat or anything, like "Hey, white people, you're about to be in the minority." But it definitely has an air of this is a reality that you have to deal with, and it's clearly not something . . . I mean the stat about most white people only having white friends, it's like clearly this is not a reality that white people are dealing with yet or expect to deal with anytime soon.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, it is really shocking. But, you know, there's hope. I just read this week that California's no longer a majority-white state so that's good.
Ann: Oh yeah, that's been happening.
Aminatou: I know. It's officially on the books now. [Laughs]
Ann: All right.
Aminatou: So we put it in the wins column.
Ann: It's true.
Aminatou: One state at a time.
Ann: It's true.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, it's just not to extrapolate this into pop culture but it's the same good feelings that people get from doing this that fuels the kind of stuff that is behind a Taylor Swift/Nicki Minaj rift on the Internet where you just don't understand. It's like yes, you can be a good person. You can have black friends and you can know all sorts of ethnic shit, you know? It's not going to preclude you from taking systemic critique personally and feeling attack . . .
Ann: Oh my god, that is verbatim what the column I wrote today is. Not verbatim, but that is the idea.
(43:55)
Aminatou: Oh my god, it's almost like we're friends and have similar politics. [Laughs]
Ann: [Laughs] Oh, yeah.
Aminatou: I'm just going to start putting the rumor out there that I've been ghostwriting all of your pop culture essays.
Ann: Please do. Please do.
Aminatou: The hand behind the hand.
Ann: Where does influence end and ghostwriting begin? I can't tell you.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Maybe one day somebody will do for race something like that Seven Up series from England and it'll be a little more robust.
Ann: Oh my god, putting in a request for a Seven Up of whiteness right now.
Aminatou: Seriously. Just being like you grew up around black people. How has your life changed?
Ann: Seriously, yeah. Or you met black people for the first time when you were 21. How has your life changed?
Aminatou: No, seriously.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: My favorite part of the whole thing though was when this one kid -- like Jose Antonio Vargas is like "Tell me if there's any disadvantages to being white." And this one guy's like "Uh, I don't know, that's like asking a rich person to tell me how hard it is being rich." And I was like thank you. Like 21-year-old young man. This is actually perfect. I do feel sad for these people but at the end of the day I'm like, I don't know, structurally you have everything.
Ann: Like, listen, his rich people metaphor was the right answer and that is the one I would've given for a sound bite. But it did make me think about, when I thought about the question later, I was like the empathy deficit was the only thing I could come up with that was remotely a thing.
Aminatou: My friend that I watched it with -- and she's white -- she said "Well, our foods are really terribly-flavored." And I was like that is fair. I was like that is very fair.
Ann: It's true. Yeah. I mean good answer. Didn't think of that one, but applause.
(45:55)
Aminatou: I was just disappointed because I felt like even on, god, what is that MTV series? True Life. Like they do a better job about going deep into subjects than they really did with this.
Ann: I mean True Life: I'm White is a pretty broad topic.
Aminatou: I know, man. True Life: I'm a Racist Millennial.
Ann: True Life: I'm a White Person With Only White Friends.
Aminatou: I know. It's just like the whole thing, I don't know, it made me sad and it made me rethink a lot of my college interactions. Even college interactions that I had with some of my really good friends' parents, you know? And it just took me back to all those Thanksgivings where somebody would say "Oh, you're not like other black people," or "God, that Obama." And just it's like I want to go back to all those conversations now and be like man, you made me really uncomfortable in this moment and I wish that I had spoken up more for myself. It's like yeah, you just feel really sad about the whole thing.
Ann: Yeah. Maybe that's . . .
Aminatou: White people, do better. Do better.
Ann: Do better.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Just perpetually do better.
Ann: Try harder. Do better.
Aminatou: Do better. But don't worry, we're taking over, so either way do better for yourselves.
Ann: Right. Or at least make your peace with that.
Aminatou: Oh my god, I'm such a fear-mongerer. Not good at all. Ugh. And it's just like . . . I just, yeah, I'm going to watch Peggy McIntosh videos and feel really great about when she makes people cry.
Ann: Do it. Do it. All right, should we wrap this up?
Aminatou: I hate ending on bummer notes, but sorry, this is what everybody gets today.
Ann: Do you ever think about if our episodes were visualized in one mega-graphic this one would be like Jose Antonio Vargas holding a natural sea sponge? [Laughs]
(47:50)
Aminatou: I'm really hoping that one day -- yes. I'm really hoping that one day we get the Taiwan cartoon treatment.
Ann: Oh my god, yes!
Aminatou: That is high on my bucket list of things I want to achieve. I think we need to be in some sort of medium scandal and it will happen for us.
Ann: I mean it's going to be the upside of being involved in a scandal I think.
Aminatou: I mean with some of the crazy shit I say on here we'll probably be involved in a scandal soon.
Ann: God willing.
Aminatou: But, you know, I just want to see them illustrate period blood gushing and crushing all of our enemies. Just that's what I want.
Ann: Ugh, yes. Exactly.
Aminatou: Taiwanese animators, please get at us.
Ann: Get at us.
Aminatou: We have a scandal brewing.
Ann: Call Your Girlfriend's Taiwanese animators. [Laughs]
Aminatou: [Laughs] What are you doing the rest of the evening?
Ann: I am . . . I'm going on a half-reporting trip that's also where they're putting me up in a beach-side villa, so I'm both getting my work shit together and packing a bathing suit. That's what I'm doing.
Aminatou: If only you had pink Viagra for this trip. [Laughs]
Ann: It's true, but they do have alcohol there and it's still in California.
Aminatou: Yeah, you can do the control. That's perfect.
Ann: Yeah, this will be the control weekend.
Aminatou: That's great. I'm going to finish watching my Kdrama and figure out which one of these actors has had surgery on their faces.
Ann: Ugh, great. Great.
Aminatou: Everybody has a pointy chin and I'm convinced they're manufactured.
Ann: All right, well shall we sign off?
Aminatou: Yes. You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, on iTunes -- feel free to leave us a review if you feel so inclined. Only positive reviews, please. On Twitter at @callyrgf, and you can also email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We love hearing about your sponges and all sorts of menstrual problems so please let us know. And yeah, that's it.
Ann: And shout-out to our producer/editor/podcast witch Gina Delvac. You make us sound . . .
Echo: We love Gina Delvac.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Gina D! And, yeah, I'll see you on the Internet.
Aminatou: See you on the Internet. Have a good weekend.
Ann: Bye.