Appropriate Emoji
5/22/15 - We discuss Ann’s visit to RuPaul’s DragCon, men and housework, women in flats, the gross faux food Soylent, how white people are using the new multiracial emoji and the amazing life (and death) of Sandra Bem.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
LINKS
Gillian Anderson new book || Watch The Fall on Netflix: it’s so feminist
Sandra Bem, extraordinary woman
Shine Theory: Serena Williams: “Let’s just put an end to this myth that women players cannot be friends.”
This week in menstruation: The Period Fairy
also great: this and this
TRANSCRIPT: APPROPRIATE EMOJI
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: This week on Call Your Girlfriend we'll be discussing men and housework, award shows and heels, the racial politics of emoji, the case for Soylent or not-so-case for Soylent, rich ladies on the upper east side, the amazing story of Sandra Ben, a Shine Theory update, and obviously menstruation.
[Theme Song]
Ann: What's going on?
Aminatou: [Laughs] Not much. Not much. Busy, busy, busy week. Yeah.
Ann: I went to RuPaul's Drag Conference last weekend.
Aminatou: Oh my god, tell me everything.
Ann: I mean I know I texted you when I had eyes on Latrice because there was like a 20-people deep line around her on all sides but she looked incredible and I don't know. I mean it was just kind of great to stroll among so much glitter and the highest hair for a couple of hours. I didn't go the whole time. I also stayed for Ru's keynote which . . .
Aminatou: Amazing.
Ann: Featured a disproportionate number of references to Jiggly Caliente.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: But was very inspirational. He . . . there was a lot of elaboration on if you can't love yourself how the hell are you going to love someone else?
Aminatou: Oh man.
Ann: That was great. His sisters were there which was also the best.
Aminatou: That makes me . . . this takes me back to D.C. days, like introducing you to the show. How far you have come, I am very pleased. This is perfect.
(2:00)
Ann: I was so happy there and then I went and had tacos with our good friend Jorje and that was -- it was my weekend. It was the best.
Aminatou: That's so crazy. So tell me about this conference. Was there a pageant? Were there panels? Can you tell me like a sample panel? Like my mind is blown right now.
Ann: There was a panel about women in drag, you know, people who live kind of day-to-day lives as women and their interest in drag that I was interested in but conflicted with my brunching plans on Saturday, sorry. [Laughs] There was also . . .
Aminatou: Oh wait, these are like civilians. I assumed only the drag race contestants would be on panels. Never mind.
Ann: So most of the panelists were also former drag race contestants, and there were some practical panels. It was like padding panels and contouring panels and things like that.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: For sure. Basically like we're onstage going to show you how to cut apart sofa cushions and pad your ass. Did not attend the practical skills panels because the floor, which was half sort of people selling makeup brushes and fan merch for various queens and was half massive autograph lines for mostly ex-drag race contestants. There was probably in attendance maybe 20% of the people there were in drag but mostly it was just like super fans. [Laughs] It was great.
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Ann: It was great.
Aminatou: That was -- ugh, I'm so happy you got to experience that. That's cray.
Ann: Next time we should at least have a booth or something.
Aminatou: I know, we should definitely have a booth.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Okay, we'll workshop it. That's crazy. Your weekend, way more exciting than mine. I'm just drowning in life and work and I'm using all of my free time to catch up on TV that I've missed and yeah, it's just been very weird. I re-watched all of The Fall which if you don't know is this BBC amazing TV show with what's her name from X-Files.
(4:14)
Ann: Gillian Anderson?
Aminatou: Yes, Gillian Anderson is this beautiful British police constable lady who gets called to Northern Ireland to solve this spade of serial murders done by Jamie Dornan of I want to say The Fall fame but for most Americans it's 50 Shades fame.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And it was amazing re-watching The Fall after 50 Shades, just re-watching and realizing oh, yeah, no, this guy, you actually are really good at your job. 50 Shades sucks. Don't go back for the sequel.
Ann: Wait, so they're already making a sequel?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: I should've known this.
Aminatou: I mean obviously they're going to make a sequel. This is the kind of stuff they don't let die. Also it's three books, remember? So they have to make three movies. That's how that works.
Ann: [Sighs] Yeah. I guess I assumed that they maybe didn't have to make all three but apparently . . .
Aminatou: Please. That stuff started off as Twilight fan fiction. Of course they're going to make all three. But yeah, no, it was crazy. It was like I was re-watching The Fall and was reminded of what a completely feminist TV show it is. Just insane. Like Gillian Anderson's character has a one night stand with this really hot northern Irish -- dude, all the police people are hot. It's very disconcerting. Like all the dudes. She has this one night stand with this policeman and then he -- spoiler -- he dies like immediately after and everybody tries to shame her for it and she's just not having it. She's just like "I don't know what you're talking about." But actually the best part of it is when he's leaving her hotel room -- she totally picks him up. When he leaves her hotel room he's like "Can I have your number?" She's like "Sure." And then proceeds to send her a selfie of his naked upper torso and she's so annoyed by it. [Laughter] I don't like spoiling so much but it's so perfect. Then he stops by her desk and he's like "Why did you give me your number if you're not going to respond to me?" and she's like "I just thought you were a different kind of person." I was like yes, thank you!
Ann: Correct.
(6:20)
Aminatou: You know, meanwhile there's a serial murderer. I would still recommend watching it. It's only six episodes and it's not a who dunnit. You already know who the serial killer is.
Ann: Oh, strong selling points. Only six episodes and not a who dunnit? So strong.
Aminatou: Oh yeah, no, so refreshing. No, this is not a who killed Rosie Larson? You already know what's going on.
Ann: Excellent.
Aminatou: I'm like name a more feminist TV show. Impossible.
Ann: Gillian Anderson is really good at picking roles I feel.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, she's got it on lock and she's, yeah, total babe. You know she's writing a book?
Ann: No. What is her book about?
Aminatou: Yeah. It's about being a boss lady.
Ann: Celebrities can't just write memoirs anymore. They have to be advice books.
Aminatou: This is amazing. Okay, thank you Gillian Anderson for that.
[Music]
Aminatou: Men and house work. I assume -- well I don't assume, I know -- that you are referring to this thing in New York Magazine written by John Chait, LOL, selling John Chait feelings. [Laughs] About . . . I can't believe it's been this long since we've talked about John Chait on the podcast.
Ann: It's been a while. I'm kind of proud of us.
(8:05)
Aminatou: Because he's usually the easiest like . . . he's the easiest button to push with me.
Ann: Yeah, it's a guaranteed ugh eye roll.
Aminatou: I know. Well, okay, eye roll to the subject line "Social science proves men don't want housework to be done by anybody."
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: Ugh.
Ann: Sorry.
Aminatou: Ann, I know. Men are just . . . ugh, I can't. Housework is a thing honestly for me that will drive me to be a gender warrior.
Ann: Well he's arguing this, that there is research that says women who live alone do more housework than men who live alone and that's sort of used as a justification for his thesis which is that men are just generally more slobbenly than women and would prefer to live in their own filth. And the reason why housework is a point of contention in heterosexual couples is that women have standards that are much higher than men's when it comes to the cleanliness of their homes. Did I get that right?
Aminatou: Yes, you got that absolutely right. Also just for reference this argument pops up every year.
Ann: Oh, it's a perennial.
Aminatou: It's just, yeah, it's like a couple years ago in the New York Times on that Sunday Review, that article The Case for Filth. I still dream about it because I was so angry. [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: About a man talking about this. On the one hand I guess it's true, men just have lower standards of cleanliness than some . . .
Ann: Some men.
Aminatou: Most men have lower standards of cleanliness than women, because I hate it that they always say it's the women that have high standards. I don't know, man, maybe this is what the baseline should be.
(9:55)
Ann: Right. Like I don't think that my standards are very high. It's just I don't want to step off the side of my couch and put my foot into a bowl crusted with dry oatmeal or something.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Like I just want my house to be generally bug-free and I want to be able to find my keys and maybe a specific shirt I'm looking for. I don't feel like the bar is so high that I need to be able to eat a meal off my kitchen sink or something.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know, also Amanda Marcotte is somebody who's been writing about gender and housework for as long as I have been a baby feminist and has really smart things to say about this. And she really talks about rejecting this notion that bachelors have been historically filthy and name checks all of these movies like The Graduate and Breakfast at Tiffany's. Also if you read all of Victorian fiction dudes are generally clean because they have servants. I think that the burden that's actually shifted is everybody wants it to be clean. Not everybody wants to participate in the cleaning.
Ann: I think that's so true. And Amanda has also written -- I don't know if it's this time around that she's made this argument -- but I know she has written before about the social pressure on women both when they're living with a man and when they're living alone to keep their home clean for appearances. Like if you walk into a home with a heterosexual couple and it's filthy no one looks at the dude and is like "Why aren't you keeping it clean?"
Aminatou: No, absolutely, right? The pressure is more pronounced on women to keep a clean household than it is on men. I think that's something we can all agree on. The argument is just all of these man children are basically allowed to wallow in their dirt and there's no consequences for them, and then they're going to marry some smart ingenue who comes up and cleans after them.
(11:50)
Ann: Right. I also am kind of curious about how these studies break down what it means to spend time on your home because I'm sort of like okay, if I am working on my herb garden -- I don't really work on it, but let's say I spend time on it -- is that time that counts towards keeping a home and that's something that women are more likely to do and that skews the numbers as well? I'm sort of also skeptical about what this actually means practically when they say time spent keeping your house.
Aminatou: Yeah, I wonder. Hmm. Maybe we'll do our own study.
Ann: Oh my god, yes. Would you be able to say how many hours you spend on your home or housework? Like is that a number you could easily come by? I would struggle.
Aminatou: I mean I would struggle definitely but also I do the Martha Stewart like if you do these seven things every day your house will not get out of control. [Laughs] So, you know, I would say that I don't . . . I have spent a considerable amount of time on my housework and on my home but at this point it's also a routine.
Ann: Yeah. I don't know, I also think that -- and this is sort of what I was getting at with specifically what do those numbers mean, because really what I read in this argument a lot is John Chait is a pretty sloppy dude who's friends with other sloppy dudes and that very much informs his point-of-view on this whereas when I think about a lot of the men I know, like my brother among them, super, super clean. My brother's bedroom was always everything at 90-degree angles and not an item on the floor. You know, there is a range for both men and women I think definitely and it's just so easy to superimpose your own frustrations with a partner who hasn't cleaned up or your own like "Ugh, we wouldn't fight about this if you just didn't care as much" attitude.
(13:54)
Aminatou: No. I mean no, totally. I was raised in a household where the girls were expected to do a lot of the cleaning. We had maids but the maids didn't work for us so we had to do all of our -- you know, I had to make my bed every day, I had to clean, blah, blah. Like things I was really resentful of because my brother was not . . . my parents did not expect my brother to do that, and then fast-forward into adulthood they've basically raised somebody who's incapable of taking care of himself. Or somebody who realized later in life that he should've learned how to do, I don't know, say laundry, like cook, do your bed, or whatever.
But my brother's apartment is completely spotless. [Laughs] I was talking to him the other day and he was telling me about his relationship with his maid and I was so impressed because he's very early-20s and has just decided that housework is something that's important for presentation in his home and he's hired somebody to do this. And I was like this is a lot more advanced than I would've assumed.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: For somebody who was raised in his situation. But also I was very impressed. Him and his Jamaican maid are homies. I like it.
Ann: Respect to that because at least it's -- you know, it's still taking ownership of the situation, you know what I mean? Him saying I'm going to pay someone else to do the cleaning is still him saying -- recognizing that this place needs to be cleaned to a certain standard, and I feel like that's really the heart of this battle.
Aminatou: No, totally, and his apartment is spotless. I was really . . . I was very impressed. I was like yes, you are definitely related to me. Hallelujah.
Ann: [Laughs] I love that.
Aminatou: Ugh, John Chait. Okay.
Ann: What else?
Aminatou: Next on our agenda. Oh yeah, you were telling me about women being told what to wear.
Ann: [Laughs] I was. And how did this come up? I think this was pretty recently. When was Cannes?
Aminatou: Happening.
(15:50)
Ann: It's happening right now. Anyway, women in flats were told they could not walk the red carpet.
Aminatou: Which is like LOL, so . . . this is the kind of misogyny that makes me laugh.
Ann: Tell me why.
Aminatou: Because it's like hi, you know, it's some man's idea of "Hi, you're not fuckable if you don't wear high heels. You're not glamorous enough for this red carpet." And I'm like do you know what these women have to do all day? Also if you see where Connes is, like the steps they have to go through and all of the walking that happens, you want to be wearing flats.
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: Also just this idea that flats are not appropriate women's shoe wear is something that I've encountered a lot professionally where people will always say oh, you're not put together if you're not wearing a heel. And I'm like I don't know, I feel very comfortable in my flat right now.
Ann: I mean the range of time . . . I read a statistic that the range of time the average woman can wear the average heel, and I don't know what exact heel height that was, but without experiencing pain is 34 minutes.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: So if you are on your feet for more than 34 minutes in heels you are in pain. So basically Connes is like we would like all women to experience pain in order to be associated with our event.
Aminatou: I know, it's so crazy. I personally have not worn heels since maybe 2008. I have not worn a heel. I wear some boots that are a little tall but I wouldn't count those as a heel because they're chunky. Maybe one platform. I'm 100% always wear flat shoes and I think it's ridiculous whenever people tell me I don't look put together if I'm not wearing a heel.
Ann: I will say this as someone who wears almost exclusively flats as well that it can be hard to find shoes that are nice and that look right with more formal outfits that are flat. Like I think a lot of flats are sort of designed to the expectation that they're not to be worn dressed up, which is not to say you can't find really expensive, dressy flats. I know you can. But I have struggled.
(18:05)
Aminatou: I know. I'm like you want me to give you a rundown? No, but I totally hear that. They're not meant to be a glamorous or a going-out shoe.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And I think that also you and I have the advantage of being taller.
Ann: Yep.
Aminatou: And so obviously not that hard of a choice to make but also I don't know, man, I see women in heels walking -- especially when I lived in New York -- like running around New York City and my mind was blown. I don't know how they do it.
Ann: I read some article about Sarah Jessica Parker needing a special foot intervention because of all her time spent wearing heels. Like she had grown a new layer of skin on the pad of her feet and needed . . .
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Ann: I know. Horror story stuff.
Aminatou: Also I just can't walk in a heel. I don't know what happened, I just cannot. There's something wrong with my body. I can't do it.
Ann: I can't either, and I thought about actually when I was at Drag Con this weekend, I was like I wonder if any of these queens would teach me how to walk in heels just as an exercise. Like I'm not really going to take up wearing them but I'm curious to have someone with a body my size teach me to walk in heels.
Aminatou: No, seriously. So this weekend on the Kardashians there was a two-part like Bruce tells his story that was the companion to the Diane Sawyer story and right at the beginning Khloe brings him these four, five, six-inch -- the high heels, and that's all I could think about, man, even Bruiser can wear heels better than me. I'm like literally I can't.
Ann: But maybe he's been !!br0ken!! Is it sort of like other things where you have to start at two inches then work your way up to get comfortable?
Aminatou: I mean I guess so, but you know what it is? I realize that for me it's that there are some things I'm really strong about and there are some things I'm really wimpy about and foot pain is something I'm very wimpy about.
Ann: Yeah.
(19:55)
Aminatou: I just decided a long time ago that's not a part of my body I'm okay feeling uncomfortable with.
Ann: Yeah, it is true though, I definitely . . . I don't know where I would come down on this question if I were a lot shorter and I felt like, for example, to get the men I work with to look me in the eye I had to wear heels or something like that. There are definitely reasons other than vanity that women wear heels, you know?
Aminatou: No, it's true. I lived with this woman who was very tiny, love her forever, but it's like I would see her transformation from like, you know, just coming from the gym wearing shorts -- she was very much like in the Drake song, [Laughs] no makeup, hair back situation, and watch her glam it up. And the last touch was always the heels and watching her go from five-nothing to like 5'4 or 5'5 was very beautiful.
Ann: Ugh, standards.
Aminatou: I know, standards, they're the actual worst. But also again I'm really wimpy about foot pain.
Ann: So how did Connes justify this decision? Were they like flats aren't formal-wear? How did they say -- like this is what I didn't read.
Aminatou: They asked the women not to walk the carpet and one of them was the wife of a director and so it wasn't like any actress because the actresses obviously have to wear heels, right? No publicist worth their salt is going to let their actress go out there without heels. That's like part of their interview. And they were just like you cannot be a part of this, of taking pictures and walking. You can meet your person at the other end of it.
Ann: Oof, wow.
Aminatou: Which is crazy.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Then they're like we don't -- and obviously now everybody is denying it and it's like what are you talking about? But also this reminds me of certain gay bars in D.C.
Ann: Oh yeah.
(21:50)
Aminatou: That would not let women in because they were like women wear heels. And I just remember this very clearly because I was never in heels but I would hear them say it to the other lady patrons all the time and I was like this is also sexist.
Ann: Well I thought that was just their personal stand against bachelorette parties showing up at the gay bar. If they don't have heels then you can't have that whole group of women dressed in their going-out wear invading the gay club.
Aminatou: No, totally. I mean, yeah, but that's like you can't refuse service to people.
Ann: I mean you can't but you can set a dress code I guess.
Aminatou: I mean then set a dress code. Don't say -- you know what I mean? Saying no high heels is you basically saying you don't want women in your establishment. And they would always say it scratches the floors and I'm like have you seen this face? There is fucking like sugary drinks on the floor.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's just -- that's not cool. Somebody should take that to the Supreme Court.
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: It's like the next Legally Blonde case.
Ann: It is such a Legally Blonde 3 sort of case.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Ugh.
[Music and Ads]
(26:05)
Ann: I have this question that I've been meaning to ask you because it's something that happens when my new emoji keyboard pops up which is as a white person I'm as excited as everyone that there are many new racial options for sort of some of the hand and face emoji. Not all. Not every single one, but a good range. And I want to use them. Like I didn't -- obviously I was someone who was not happy with the default all of them being white. But then I felt especially when I'm texting another white person is it weird for me to text brown hands clapping? Is that a weird thing?
Aminatou: Whoa, that's like white people weirdness.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Inter-white people weirdness. Man.
Ann: For sure. I don't feel as weird about it when I'm texting my friends who aren't white for whatever reason because I don't know. I don't know why. But like . . .
Aminatou: Well I'm going to say for one welcome to our world where the default was always one thing and you're trying to make a new default.
Ann: Totally.
Aminatou: Yeah, I guess it's weird for you. I personally -- I just defaulted to the darkest emoji now. I use it on everything. But every once in a while if I am talking about a white person I will change the emoji to white. I'm thinking about the grandma specifically.
Ann: Hmm, yeah. Context where the emoji is explicitly meant to refer to a person I will adjust it according to the person but I'm talking more the general -- like mostly the hands actually. I kind of just pick one at random. I don't . . . like I have used every single one in the rainbow of praying hands.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know, this is really weird because I live in a world where there was always ever one default. Like I never . . . you know?
Ann: Well I mean I live in the same world where there was one default and it's like . . .
Aminatou: I know, but you are the default.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: That's the difference.
Ann: No, and I'm not saying I want to go back to that world at all. I'm just saying I think that the politics too of using . . . like is the clapping hand meant to represent me? Is that what I mean when I send a clapping hand?
(28:00)
Aminatou: I mean I don't think so. I think -- so I guess what I was trying to get at earlier is that it is weird because it's an obvious change that is happening in real time as opposed to being born into, you know, the default world that we have. But I don't think that it should be weird. I get that it is weird but I don't think that it should be because it's like who cares?
Ann: I don't know. It's something that I think about. It's not like I'm losing sleep over which emoji to send but it's definitely something I think about.
Aminatou: Oh my god, Ann, are you losing sleep over which emoji to send? Just checking. [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah. I don't mean to say that I think there is a right or wrong thing. And one reason it's interesting is because it comes down to me at least to two questions of how you use emoji: the sort of pictorial language of emoji. Like I said, does this represent me or am I just sending a feeling and therefore I don't need to think so much about it?
Aminatou: I think it's an absolutely fascinating conversation. I think that it's fascinating. I would be curious to hear what other white people think about this.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Basically what I'm saying is that I want to be a fly on the wall of white people having this conversation because I have noticed for me with most of my friends that are not white the emojis have just gotten darker, like period. I will not see a white emoji unless it's specifically referring to a person.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And also it's weird too because, you know, on the keyboard the default one is supposed to be that weird yellow, the super-yellow tone.
Ann: Right.
(29:45)
Aminatou: Which makes no sense. Also I'm upset that they removed the radiating glory of God from the prayer hands but that's a conversation for another time.
Ann: I asked a friend about this actually who is not white but she has said she has noticed that mostly her friends of all races tend to text her with the default yellow. She was like I still see that weird neon yellow way more often than I see any of the other options.
Aminatou: Do you think those people just don't know how to change the emoji? I think that's possible.
Ann: I mean very possible.
Aminatou: Because the yellow is so weird. It's very annoying.
Ann: The Simpsons default.
Aminatou: Okay, tell me as you tell -- as you and other white people discuss this please report back to me.
Ann: Okay, I will. My homework is to discuss this with other white people.
Aminatou: Every time you see a white person just bring it up. Be like "What color emoji are you using?"
Ann: Oh my god, no, I'm not even going to bring it up. I'm going to be like "Can I see your most recent emoji?" because that doesn't lie.
Aminatou: Man, if your most recent emoji is people though that's weird. I guess the hands. The hands.
Ann: The hands. It's all about the hands. The people are never in my most recent. It's all hands.
Aminatou: Yeah, for me it's like things that need to be in your most recent if we're going to be friends are 100, the fire, clapping hands, maybe the horse. Everything else up for debate.
[Music]
Ann: What else? What else is on our agenda?
Aminatou: Soylent. Do you want to talk about Soylent?
Ann: Not really but also yes.
Aminatou: Okay, so here's my definition of Soylent. Soylent is a food that is basically garbage that's made by people who are like I'm too busy for life so I have to drink this soy nasty drink.
(31:45)
Ann: It's like soy and yeast, right? And . . .
Aminatou: Yeah. Yeah, that's basically what it is. And it's like literally people -- I had a coworker who did Soylent and I was like "Why do you do this?" and he's like "Because I'm busy coding and doing other stuff" and I was like you're crazy. There's literally food everywhere we turn where we work. This is madness.
Ann: So this is people who don't respect themselves enough to eat solid foods?
Aminatou: Well I guess so. [Laughs] So the reason we're talking about this is because Dylan Matthews over at Vox wrote this thing about how he has been using Soylent in his life and it's very comprehensive. The article starts with "I hate food." So long story short he's a really picky eater. He eats a tiny selection of food, like just pizza and the Sofritas burrito at Chipotle. That's like the two things that make up his life. He has this whole rant about how eating just takes up too much time and cooking is stupid and, you know . . .
Ann: There's this whole analogy where he's like if we spent as much time talking about defecating as we spend talking about eating, blah, blah, blah, as if these things were remotely comparable.
Aminatou: Exactly. No, right? Trust me, we're going to get to the boy wonder analysis of this garbage very soon. So he writes this whole rant about this and then why he's decided to do this liquid food replacement. Here's the deal: he can't even Soylent right. Like there's three things that go into Soylent: Soylent, oil, and water. That's it. You don't have to have a fancy anything, and he didn't have the right oil so he couldn't do it right the first time. [Laughs] I'm like who doesn't have canola oil in their house? Or who's going to give up food who doesn't have the three things you need to do it? But the most amazing part is when he realizes eating food is also a social activity. It's like "I gave up food then I realize that other people eat food and I sometimes want to talk to other people." [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god.
(34:00)
Aminatou: So yeah, they're just basically at a point where he's at two Soylent meals a day and sometimes the office will bring free food and he's like man, what am I going to do? In Silicon Valley it's definitely a thing that is happening. I've met a lot of people who are on it, who talk about it. People who generally are on any type of soy supplements will talk to you about their poop a lot so it's very -- it's just very . . .
Ann: Maybe it's just an excuse for people who get off on talking about their gas, to talk about it.
Aminatou: I know, but man, let me tell you. I knew someone who was on Soylent 1.0. He like -- man, almost lost it many times.
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: And hold on, before I even get into that I want to read to you the most absurd part of Dylan's entire account about Soylent. "I actually think this is the great weakness of food." [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: "We use food as a cloak over social occasions whose true purposes are too embarrassing or emotionally naked to be clearly articulated. When you meet someone cute at a party it's awkward to say 'Hi, I'd like to have a long conversation in which we can each determine if we're potentially interested in becoming good friends and having sex regularly in the future.' So instead you say 'Do you want to grab dinner?' and assume they'll catch your drift. Similarly if you're talking to someone who sounds smart and funny and you want to befriend in a platonic capacity, 'Do you want to hang out and see if we actually like each other in a one-on-one setting enough to be friends and hang out a lot?' is judged to be excessively honest and so 'Let's get coffee' works instead. It's weird and dishonest and perpetrates the notion that it's somehow creepy to want healthy relationships with other people." What is he even talking about?
Ann: Is he a robot?
Aminatou: I mean yes, clearly he's like a robot who can't even feed himself Soylent.
Ann: Wow.
(35:45)
Aminatou: I was just vacillating between laughing and being annoyed at the same time because I just don't -- yeah, I don't understand what's going on. But after that I read . . . I was Googling ladies who Soylent because I just didn't believe that women could do this. I was like surely this is not possible or there are a very small number.
Ann: Wait, pause button. They say who Soylent? You say Soylent like a verb? I Soylent?
Aminatou: I say Soylent as a verb. That's not how they meant it but, you know . . .
Ann: Okay, just checking. Sorry to interrupt. Lady Soylent.
Aminatou: Yeah, so ladies who Soylent. And I read this other account of a woman in Silicon Valley -- also shocker, Silicon Valley engineer -- who has been taking Soylent and she's been raving about how it's better for her and also the subject of her article is like Freedom from Food. And this is so fascinating to me, like people who think eating is such a problem, like feeding yourself three square meals a day. I will be honest that I worked at a place where we were fed three square meals a day and somehow it was easier but also it's not that hard.
Ann: What if women who opt out of food using Soylent are the food equivalent of women who opt out of cleaning their house?
Aminatou: We should try to correlate this.
Ann: I don't know. But yeah, I mean listen, I think there is just such a vast middle ground between I cook myself elaborate meals every night using a ton of obscure ingredients that I have to go to three different stories to purchase and I put oil and powder and water in a blender. There's just so much space between those things it's just weird.
Aminatou: No, there's so much space between those things. Especially for Dylan I wanted to write him and I probably should about all the companies that are actually in that space.
Ann: Right.
(37:48)
Aminatou: You know, there's everything from Blue Apron which is -- that's like a little involved, you're actually cooking a real meal.
Ann: Yeah, but then you get to Instagram it like you went to the store and cooked which I see you on Instagram Gramming your Blue Apron. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Well no, because they tell you to use the hashtag.
Ann: Exactly.
Aminatou: So you know, there are the people who do that. Then there's companies like this other one called Forage -- I think they just changed the name -- where they basically almost pre-cook everything for you and all you have to do is put it together. So it's literally in, I don't know, like 15 minutes you can cook yourself a nutritious, delicious meal. I don't know. I would be down for Soylent and food replacement if they made it taste not disgusting.
Ann: I mean the thing that really frustrates me about this is I have a friend for whom cooking is actually a burden on her for various health and lifestyle-related reasons. It's legit a burden. It's not like she lives in a city where she can order any of this stuff in replacement. She can't get Blue Apron. There's a million things like this where I'm sort of like . . . you know, it just makes me angry to see someone who has all of these options be like "I'm driven to Soylent," you know?
Aminatou: Yeah, some people have real problems.
Ann: Yeah, exactly.
Aminatou: Some people have actual . . . no, totally. This is how I feel about people -- like everybody who is gluten-free, and I'm like trust me, when you have a fucking gluten allergy and your body is betraying you you will know. They're all liars.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: I just can't with garbage science. But this is so fascinating to me because yeah, people who see food as a burden . . . and I guess it is expensive. It's a thing that you have to do for yourself. But yeah, there are so many steps that I would take before I went the full Soylent. This is insane.
Ann: How much of it is just the trendiness of it though? Like in sort of . . .
Aminatou: I mean but it's not cool, you know what I mean?
Ann: No, but the fact that it signals I work so hard or I'm so devoted to my work that I can't even pause to eat. Not this case, not this particular essay by someone who hates food, but you know, people who sort of . . . who do have meals provided at work and they're like it's still easier for me to do this. I'm just so focused on coding right now or whatever.
(40:05)
Aminatou: I mean I think that's a huge part of it, right, is control over your environment and over what you're doing and economy of your own -- you know, accounting of your own time and motion. I think that's definitely real. But this is also ridiculous. I was like if you were going to Mars and you had to use Soylent I would completely understand.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: If you are doing this because you work at your fancy engineering job and you literally cannot go to the cafeteria that's madness.
Ann: Agreed.
Aminatou: So everybody who's telling you it's the end of food, don't believe them.
Ann: Yeah, the end of food is the California drought, not Soylent.
Aminatou: Oh my god, we're all going to die soon.
[Music]
Aminatou: Oh man, this is not on our agenda but this made me think. Did you read that crazy New York Times article about the upper east or upper west side moms? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Ann: I did. It was the upper east side and I feel like it was just there was no data in it.
Aminatou: I mean, well . . .
Ann: Yeah, there's no data in it.
Aminatou: So this woman who she's an anthropologist, yes, and she's obviously writing a book, lives on the upper east side -- yeah, duh, that's the rich side -- on the upper east side and is chronicling the lives of rich women who have all basically opted out of the workforce to become super mommies and the privileges that come with that.
Ann: Like a wife bonus?
(41:48)
Aminatou: Yeah, so the wife bonus . . . [Laughs] The wife bonus was not crazy to me because I've heard of push resents. So this happens when, again, women who are married to rich people, when they have a baby what do you get? Like a woman I know bought a Mercedes. Somebody else I know . . .
Ann: Wait, you know a woman who received a Mercedes for giving birth?
Aminatou: Ann, I don't want to go into the details of my insane family but yes.
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, this is not a thing that is like new or real. So I think that the wife bonus is not an insane extension from that but again there was no data, right? I don't know if this is one hedge fund dude who is paying his wife and that's skewing the whole thing but who knows? The thing -- the whole thing about the entire article that made me a little sad and that was really fascinating is just that these women are actually all super-educated like MBAs, lawyers, and they all opt out of the workforce and I'm convinced that's why we're never going to achieve parity because all of our best and brightest are completely dropping off.
Ann: I don't know. Again numbers-wise I'm sort of . . . I have some questions. And much like that, the original opt-out article was a pretty tiny group. I mean obviously it is a real thing that women who are highly-educated and on a corporate career track, set to be the best and brightest, whatever that exactly means, that those women sometimes opt out to become caretakers. But I just can't figure out as a percentage of the problem I don't know how great a factor it really is. I honestly don't.
Aminatou: I mean I guess that like . . . I don't have any -- I should probably Google this, like look at actual real numbers. I think if you look at really heavily male businesses and whatever, like creative classes, you tend to see that the elite women when they marry they're the ones that are dropping out of the workforce. And that's the problem for achieving parity at those levels.
Ann: I mean for sure.
Aminatou: So even though the pool is small it's like this huge brain drain. But, you know, I'm just like being a rich wife is a good hustle if you can get it. I'm not going to knock anybody's hustle. But it's really weird because I feel like these articles come in waves also. This one, it was not as judgmental as I thought it was going to be but I really wonder how these women will feel in ten years.
(44:20)
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: You know, or the women I know who are getting these push presents or whatever. And I'm like yeah, this is great now but I would be really -- you know, like that 7-Up series. I'm like I would be really curious to catch up with you ten years from now and ten years after that and really see if your arrangement is as lovely as they thought it was because who knows, right?
Ann: And those are precisely the kinds of careers that are tough to get started again. I always get so sad when I hear about women who are trying to restart their careers after more than a decade out because I just feel like -- and maybe this is just me being depressive about it, but I really just feel like your chances for meaningfully returning to a level of work that you'd been doing before are slimmer and slimmer.
Aminatou: The most insane part of that article to me was how the men and women were segregated. [Laughs] It's like there's dinner parties where men and women eat separately because it's easier or they prefer it and I'm like what? This is New York City. You people are crazy.
Ann: I don't know. Again what percentage of the population? Like even the New York population. I'm just a little bit like is this one tiny aberration?
Aminatou: I mean I'm sure that it's -- yeah, it's very tiny. It's like people who live on these blocks, but it's also fascinating to see how the other half lives. Now I will have to check this book out of the library when it comes out.
Ann: Oh, I'm sure you'll hear about it.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I was talking to somebody else about the wife bonus and there was a very contentious argument about whether wives should receive bonuses. And I'm like I don't know, man, a bonus is a bonus. Whatever your job is, if your job is being a wife, you should get that bonus.
(45:55)
Ann: Yeah. I mean it makes explicit a part of your personal arrangement that people typically don't make explicit. You know, it's always like we share finances. It's not like I get a stipend.
Aminatou: No, right? It's like thank you for making this very obvious.
Ann: But I also think that in a weird way that could confer more agency. You're like okay, I'm going to get my bonus and use it to make a donation in my name and buy a table at this luncheon or whatever. Yeah.
Aminatou: No, totally. And I'm like how is that -- it's not a huge stretch from negotiating a baller prenup, hello?
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Always be looking out for yourself.
Ann: It's true. The real question that I have is oh, well so does that mean even women who are not -- have not quit their jobs to be full-time super mommies, what kind of bonus are you entitled because of intrinsic sexism?
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Or because you said no to an awesome promotion because your husband couldn't move because of his job, or you know, I'm thinking about the other demands that are possible beyond the upper east side.
Aminatou: I know, right? But the thing about -- I guess I don't have kids but my fear with all of these kinds of stories, and it's the same thing with the initial opting out article from I guess it's a decade ago now . . .
Ann: Yeah, it's so old.
Aminatou: Maybe even longer, is you know, seeing like . . . you know, where are they now? And I'm like then what happens to your . . . like if your worth is tied to raising children when the kids are gone what happens to what you do?
Ann: Yeah, I mean . . .
Aminatou: And there's no amount of bonus or whatever that's going to make you feel good about that once that's done.
Ann: I think it really depends though on where you're at. Like my mom who quit her job to raise kids was not groomed for a high-powered career that she felt she was really sacrificing. She was like oh yeah, this is a thing I really want to do. And I actually feel like that's a totally different situation than someone who five years before having kids was like "My career is everything to me." You know what I mean?
(48:00)
Aminatou: Yeah. Yeah, no, man, life. So beautifully complicated and weird.
Ann: I can't wait to read all the follow-ups/rebuttals/I get a wife bonus and here's why it's awesome essays that are going to come out after this.
Aminatou: I mean listen, getting a bonus is awesome no matter what. Get yours boo-boo. That shit is real.
[Music]
Ann: So I remember distinctly a few years ago when you sent me the obituary for this woman Sandra Bem who was a researcher into gender roles. She -- I don't know, her research was pretty fundamental to several Supreme Court cases related to gender equality.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: Anyway, she actually . . . I feel like -- let me look at the year, hang on. So in 2014, so just last year, you sent me her obituary. She was diagnosed five years prior with sort of super-early stage Alzheimer's and she decided then that she did not want to have her body outlive her mind and she ordered some drugs to peacefully kill herself at home and that's what she ended up doing. And the New York Times this weekend had sort of a long narrative story about how that choice actually worked in practice and how a lot of death with dignity laws actually have to do with the physical deterioration of the body. Like in Oregon you need to prove that you would die anyway in a certain number of months which obviously if your condition is Alzheimer's it will eventually kill you but probably -- she would've lived for several other years with assistance.
Aminatou: Yeah.
(50:08)
Ann: So she was basically like I don't want my body to exist without my mind and then it was finding the right point in her mental deterioration so she could end her life while she was still cognizant of what she was doing. It was an emotional roller coaster reading this article.
Aminatou: Oh yeah, no, I mean I cried. It was really intense.
Ann: But also just what an awesome woman. I don't know, I was really just . . . I mean because obviously the family agreed to have this story be told. It's a pretty intimate accounting of what happened and it just seemed really brave and like something I would probably want to do if I were in her situation but don't know if I would have the same kind of follow-through. And yeah, she just seems incredible.
Aminatou: Like from the beginning of that article I remember that she was watching this HBO documentary The Alzheimer's Project and I was like I very vividly remember that documentary. Alzheimer's is one of my top fears.
Ann: Oh my god, me too.
Aminatou: I mean, yeah, we've discussed this. This is why we do the crossword.
Ann: Every week without fear.
Aminatou: I know. But there's like diminishing returns I heard. It was just really interesting to me, especially this question of yes, I'm going to do this. I'm going to take my own life. But when exactly you do it, and that was really gut-wrenching to read about.
Ann: Yeah. I mean the other interesting dynamic of this story which was sort of a secondary point but she and her husband had divorced probably 15 years prior.
Aminatou: Yeah, Daryl. Ugh.
Ann: But he was sort of her number one caregiver and friend and confidante through those last like five years when she was seriously ill and he was the person in the room when she took the medication to end her life.
Aminatou: Yeah.
(52:00)
Ann: I just thought that was really interesting. They had sort of portrayed themselves as a poster couple for an egalitarian marriage. They were featured in the first issue of Ms. and they ended up divorcing and at the time of their divorce she said that she didn't feel like it was an egalitarian partnership. And so I was so interested in the way that they maintained this friendship and this closeness and this bond.
Aminatou: You know, I think it's a thing that a lot of people talk about and it's still very taboo to bring up. You know, and so I can understand why they are so close because he's somebody who -- you know, he knows her probably the best and seeing her go through this when she's such a brilliant mind, basically a genius, that's just knowing how hard that decision is but also how resolute she is in making it. You need someone with you to do that.
Ann: Right, and someone who has sort of been with you for a while who can observe like oh, actually this is fundamentally different than you were six months ago, than you were five years ago.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And one more thing to put on the list to worry about and think about and not to make this about myself but yeah, I was just . . . you know, because it's always a thing that I've always thought about. I'm like man, if I have Alzheimer's I want to go as soon as I become a burden or I'm too incapacitated or whatever.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: But I hadn't actually thought about the mechanics of it.
Ann: Totally. And yeah, that's why this article is so good. It's like really what does that mean in practice? And what happens if you have lost a ton of your cognitive ability but you still seem kind of happy?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: It's like that was an interesting thing too. It's like happiness isn't actually the sort of factor that this decision is based on, or at least the factor that she wanted to base it on.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, totally. Then going about getting the drug, like Pentobarbital is a controlled substance. How do you get that?
Ann: Yeah.
(54:00)
Aminatou: Good job New York Times Magazine.
Ann: Seriously.
Aminatou: It's like I saw the cover and I was like oh boy, I know who this is and this is going to rip my heart in half and it did.
Ann: Yeah. I had the same feeling but also I was like oh, I'm so glad someone is telling this story in-depth because I had had the same feels but fewer of them when I read the obit. For sure.
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like the family is really amazing for doing this.
Ann: Yeah, totally. Do we want to end on a Shine Theory note that's less bummer?
Aminatou: Yeah, sure.
Ann: Serena Williams is on the cover of Vogue this month looking incredible, giving the best self-empowered, composed, intense face, like not sort of model like . . . I don't know, it's not model face and I love it. And she is talking in the article about her competitor and friend how do you say her name? I can't say it.
Aminatou: Ann, you can say it.
Ann: Carolyn Watt? Hang on, I don't have the tab open.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I don't know why I'm making you say it.
Ann: Caroline Wozniacki. Is that right?
Aminatou: Yes.
Ann: Caroline Wozniacki. Yeah. So anyway, she tells Vogue -- we've discussed Serena's Shine Theory before but she says to Vogue "Let's just put an end to this myth that women players cannot be friends and competitors cannot be friends."
Aminatou: You know, that's part of Serena's DNA. Her number one rival was her sister and there's nobody that she loves more, you know?
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: When you have to go home every day with the person you beat or that beat you I think that gives you a really good sense of perspective about what's important.
Ann: Right, learn by doing.
Aminatou: I know, right? But her and Caroline Wozniacki's friendship is incredible. Like well-played Shine Theory.
Ann: Awesome.
(55:55)
Aminatou: And really quickly for this week in menstruation everybody should watch the period theory ad that we will link to. It's very cute. I won't even explain it because it's so cute.
Ann: Yeah, you just have to watch it.
Aminatou: And just know that the little actress's name is Amina so obviously we love her. Also on the Larry Wilmore show last week there was an amazing panel of ladies discussing periods. It was so good. We'll also link to that. You will die. It was -- it's like I can't even describe it, it's so good. It ends with one of the women on the panel going "Larry, I'm bleeding right now."
Ann: [Laughs] Best GIF.
Aminatou: It's so -- the whole show.
Ann: Yeah, I love it. Thanks for listening. You can find us many places on the Internet, callyourgirlfriend.com, on Twitter @callyrgf, and iTunes where you can leave us a review and rate us. That would be awesome. And also email. You can send us an email at callyrgf@gmail.com. See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: See you on the Internet.