My Neck, My Back, My Netflix, and My Snacks
4/23/15 - This week, a menstruation extravaganza: diva cupdate, period panty hacks, and a dramatic reading of Goodnight Menses. Plus! Couples’ therapy for coworkers and Toni Morrison’s regrets.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Big Wild - Aftergold
That wasn’t a song, it was Toni Morrison of course!
Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend
TRANSCRIPT: MY NECK, MY BACK, MY NETFLIX AND MY SNACKS
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend!
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda a diva cupdate, a period pantie hack, and goodnight menses. It's a menstruation extravaganza. Plus couple's therapy for coworkers and Toni Morrison's regrets.
[Theme Song]
Aminatou: How are you?
Ann: I have been really busy. I've sort of -- I have this weird part of my lower back that hurts when I've been working too much and it's been flaring up.
Aminatou: What's going on office worker and . . .
Ann: Exactly, right? It's because I don't use a standing desk and I refuse to do good ergonomic deeds for myself. But yeah, that's it.
Aminatou: You know, I know this is going to sound really cheesy but you should do good ergonomics for your sitting situation. Sorry, I know it makes me that person but it's important.
Ann: I mean here is a real dilemma which is if my chair were properly fitted to my body my knees would fit the desk. Like nothing fits.
Aminatou: I know, so maybe you need a new desk. Hello? You just perfectly laid out this problem. You're like "I have a cute desk so my back will suffer for it."
Ann: Oh my god, most boring problems. What's going on with you?
Aminatou: Ugh, you know, my lower back also hurts. Just kidding.
Ann: My neck, my back.
Aminatou: My neck, my back, my Netflix and my snacks. [Laughs] What happened to Khia? Khia, right?
Ann: I think so.
(1:58)
Aminatou: Yes, I can never tell Khia, Tweet (?), Nivea. You remember that era of one-name ladies, one-hit wonders?
Ann: It is Khia. Khia with an H. Where's the Wikipedia page?
Aminatou: Yeah, because Nivea's the . . . what did Nivea sing? She was like "There goes my back . . ."
Ann: Oh yeah, Nivea.
Aminatou: It wasn't my back. It was something else. [Laughs] But yeah, there goes my something.
Ann: There goes my shirt, there goes my dress.
Aminatou: Yes, shirt. [Laughs] God, I'm like 30. Now I'm a mom. Everything is weird. Ugh. Yeah, I don't know. I feel good. I'm having some cramping but other than that, you know, just coping.
Ann: Here's a thing that will help you cope: Khia released a new album last year. [Laughs]
Aminatou: What?
Ann: According to Wikipedia.
Aminatou: I don't understand. I don't understand. I'm looking up Khia right now. Khia is now performing at cookouts is the number one hit for Khia. Also her Twitter is Queen Khia. That's perfect.
Ann: That's great.
Aminatou: That's perfect.
Ann: Also there are worse circuits to be on than the cookout circuit.
Aminatou: Uh, the cookout and pool party circuit is an amazing circuit.
Ann: Exactly. Exactly.
Aminatou: I support this. Oh, I support this. It was not meant as a knock. It was -- no. Don't worry.
Ann: Okay. So listen, let's talk about . . . maybe you don't want to talk about these cramps. We do kind of have a menstruation extravaganza planned for this episode.
Aminatou: Oh my god, so many things to discuss. Where do we start?
Ann: You had a diva cupdate for everyone I believe.
Aminatou: It's true. So full disclosure I know I said a couple weeks ago -- months even maybe -- that I was going to try out the diva cup. I ordered one and first of all this thing cost 28 American dollars.
Ann: Oof.
Aminatou: I know in the long run of what you spend on tampons and pads that's nothing but it's a really hefty investment upfront and, you know . . .
Ann: For something you don't even know if you're going to continually put it in your vagina.
(4:10)
Aminatou: Yeah. And then I can't even return it, right? That's like four good bottles of wine down the drain. [Laughs]
Ann: This is like buying sex toys online or something. It's like you're all-in.
Aminatou: Yeah, so it's like staring me in the face. Every month I go am I going to try this or not? And so far it's been nah. But I promise, I promise, I promise I will try it very soon. But ugh, I don't have a lot of faith. Also the cleaning instructions are . . .
Ann: Boil it on the stove for hours and hours?
Aminatou: Yeah, it's like you boil it or you can order this diva cup cleaning gel solution thing for more money because everybody's in the business of making more money. I just know that I'm going to boil it and completely forget about it and ruin it like every time I try to boil eggs so that's . . .
Ann: Well you know if you have cleaning advice requests pretty much half of our inbox is diva cup evangelists who want to tell us all about how great the diva cup is so you can ask some of them.
Aminatou: I know. They are so . . . you know what I want to know actually is where do you store it? Like next to the tea cups? Where does it go in your house when you're done with it?
Ann: I always assumed people stored it in a silk pouch under the sink.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yes, some like really nice silk pouch. Like I have a lot of questions, like if you use it and you go to the bathroom, you take it out, do you have to then walk to the sink and rinse it out and put it . . . I don't know. I mean I could Google all these things but these are the questions that keep me awake at night.
(5:50)
Ann: I mean, yeah, I'm still happily in OB land but I have different flow needs so I'm going to . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs] I'm just doing investigative research for ladies everywhere. I want to know what the fuss is about.
Ann: So on that tip have you tried special period panties?
Aminatou: Ugh, please, if by special period panties you mean anything that goes above my belly button then that's what I wear all the time. Hello?
Ann: [Laughs] Well you could basically pull it up slightly higher and attach a strap to it and be wearing like a onesie.
Aminatou: Seriously. You know, actually, this is my period pantie hack: American Apparel makes these really high-waisted dude underwear and that's my rock bottom. Like any time I'm like I just . . . I just need ice cream and I need to sit in my house. I need to feel like my underwear's protecting my entire body. That's what I wear.
Ann: That's much better than this article that someone sent us which is in Women's Health and is about special period panties and features, as you've pointed out, one of the worst Photoshop jobs I've ever seen.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Ann, the Photoshop job on this thing is ridiculous. Like I told you earlier I feel that if you're going to work at a women's magazine that is a little shamey or maybe a lot shamey the best thing you can do for everyone is really take Photoshopping seriously because this is a joke.
Ann: I mean it's basically like a weird diamond-shaped chunk of her butt is missing.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I just -- you know, when the Photoshop goes bad like this I always wonder if it's the retoucher is like oh, fuck this shit or it's like literally a dude that doesn't understand women's bodies and it's like oh, your thighs -- nobody's thighs . . .
Ann: And somebody who has never been alone with a naked human woman before.
Aminatou: Yeah, I'm like I can't tell because this is laughable. They completely phoned it in and whatever -- what is this, Women's Health? Women's Health, have some respect. This is a joke.
(8:00)
Ann: Also this article uses what I find to be a super-unattractive acronym, TOM, your Time of the Month.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Although their underwear is called Thinx with an X.
Ann: Is it owned by Spanx?
Aminatou: No way, Spanx takes itself so seriously this would never happen. Thinx was partially funded on Kickstarter and Indie Gogo. For every pair purchased Uganda-based AFRIpads makes seven washable cloth pads -- oh, this is nice -- for women in the developing world who don't have access to sanitary products. But still I don't respect this product.
Ann: Right. And like do you really need it to be anti-microbial? I don't know, anti-microbial underwear.
Aminatou: Don't mess with the biome. Don't mess with the biome.
Ann: Seriously. I think it's okay to have some microbes down there, you know?
Aminatou: I just love that this is the same language that Nike tries to use to sell me pants, you know? It's like moisture-wicking. [Laughs] All these things where I'm like mm-hmm.
Ann: But where does it go? Does it just wick it to stay in the crotch of your jeans then?
Aminatou: It wicks it onto somebody else's body. [Laughs] We're just all carrying somebody else's moisture.
Ann: This got so gross so fast and I love it.
Aminatou: Leaker's going to leak, stainer's going to stain, microbe's going to microbe.
Ann: In far better period-related products to appeal to us there is a book/project called Goodnight Menses in the style of Goodnight Moon.
Aminatou: Yes.
Ann: Do you want to read a few stanzas?
Aminatou: This is also where I confess that I know what Goodnight Moon is but I've actually never . . .
(9:50)
Ann: I know what Goodnight Moon is because of The Wire.
Aminatou: [Laughs] What season? The season with the . . .
Ann: Yeah, it's like in season two there's like . . .
Aminatou: Okay, season two is the one that . . .
Ann: Or maybe season one actually.
Aminatou: The Stevedores.
Ann: No, it's not the Stevedores season I don't think. Anyway, it's really early on.
Aminatou: Oh man, I already love everything that's happened here.
Ann: Oh yeah, it's Kima. Detective Kima is putting her son to sleep by pointing out the stuff in their neighborhood and saying goodnight to it. It's so cute.
Aminatou: It's like the only cute moment in the entire . . .
Ann: It's probably -- I blocked out every other scene in The Wire except for Goodnight Moon as delivered by Kima to her son.
Aminatou: That's so funny, so season one probably? Season two? Oh no, she doesn't have a kid season one. Early on.
Ann: Yeah, it's earlyish. We can link to it. Anyway, sorry, Goodnight Menses. Probably my second favorite goodnight book situation.
Aminatou: All right, what does this say? In the great dim room there was a beanbag chair and a jar of Nutella. [Laughs] And a picture of a goddess jumping over her moon, and there were two little wolves that sang on stools and three little Doritos and a bag of Cheetos and a little bottle of Midol.
Ann: Pause button. Sorry, Midol is a scam.
Aminatou: Pause.
Ann: Like it doesn't help any more than other stuff does it? I thought that was just branding.
Aminatou: You know -- so listen, I was talking to my friend Elizabeth yesterday when I basically realized that I'm a little Christian scientist when it comes to any kind of pain medicine. Like you changed my life by giving me an Advil one time when I had a headache and I was like what? This is how the other half lives? They don't just let it go? So truthfully I don't know what the fuck Midol is.
Ann: I take an Advil for anything. If some part of my body is ignoring me and sending me messages about what I should be doing differently, Advil.
Aminatou: Yeah, no. You literally changed my life with Advil. I was like what? It could be like this all the time? I had no idea.
(12:00)
Ann: Wait, so what is your point-of-view on Midol? Scam or no?
Aminatou: I mean obviously it sounds like a scam. Why wouldn't you just take an Advil or do like me and just have a bottle of wine and put your computer on your stomach? It'll be fine.
Ann: Right, computerus.
Aminatou: Computerus. I'll bet you Midol is totally just like Tylenol with more -- you know, with a pink bottle or something.
Ann: This is what I'm saying. It's kind of like how Excedrin Migraine is the exact same thing as Excedrin Extra Strength but they charge more for Excedrin Migraine.
Aminatou: Okay, I will say this: as a migraine sufferer that is the one thing I fucks with and Excedrin Migraine is different. It has more caffeine.
Ann: More caffeine than Excedrin Extra Strength?
Aminatou: Literally your brain starts tingling.
Ann: I mean I used to get migraines as well.
Aminatou: I mean I'm not a scientist so . . .
Ann: And I would also take Excedrin Migraine just because it made me feel better to know I was taking something for migraines. But I thought the amounts of everything in it was the exact same.
Aminatou: You know, maybe. I'm not a scientist. I don't know how this stuff actually works. [Laughs] Okay, I'm going to finish reading this because it's pretty good. An iPhone with a missed call, so real, and a laptop, and some sweatpants, and a small, old lamp and a dent in the bed from where you rolled around with cramps. Goodnight room, goodnight moon, goodnight goddess jumping over the moon, goodnight bloating, and the two little wolves. Goodnight Doritos, goodnight Cheetos. Okay, pause. I know people really like Doritos and Cheetos but I feel like this is sub-par snacking for when you have bad period cramps.
Ann: It's a little reductive. This is sort of a stoner snacks period.
Aminatou: I know. I mean it gets worse. So it says like goodnight Midol, goodnight missed call, goodnight Netflix, and goodnight Cheez Whiz. Do I know anybody who eats Cheez Whiz?
Ann: Me growing up but . . .
Aminatou: Wait, is that the one that comes out of the can?
Ann: It comes in a jar that . . .
Aminatou: What?
Ann: Yeah, Cheez Whiz is the one that you heat up in a jar and then you pour it over frozen broccoli or like reheated steamed frozen broccoli then it forms like a plastic coating that you can peel off in one sheet and that is definitely how I ate vegetables as a kid because Midwest.
(14:23)
Aminatou: Oh my. America is just not a place to raise your children. That is crazy.
Ann: But you are absolutely correct there is no way Cheez Whiz belongs on a list of period snacks. That is just an abomination.
Aminatou: I know. Well then it goes on like goodnight little heating pad and goodnight marathon of Breaking Bad. That's like the best rhyme of the year. [Laughs] Breaking Bad.
Ann: Heating pad. Ugh. Are you going to finish this?
Aminatou: Oh, is there still more?
Ann: Dude, it's still going.
Aminatou: Ann, I'm exhausted. [Laughs]
Ann: I know. There's not that much interesting stuff to say goodnight to. I feel like that was the real -- the money part of the list right there.
Aminatou: It was. Well it does say goodnight Eve for the original sin which I think is funny. [Laughs]
Ann: Is this a real book or is this just a BuzzFeed thing?
Aminatou: I mean it's probably an ad for something. Hold on.
Ann: It's probably a pad for period panties. [Laughs]
Aminatou: It's an ad for Midol. Let's see.
Ann: Okay.
Aminatou: I don't know, it says by Sammy Mane. Could be a dude; could be a lady. Pictures by Dan Mass. Solid name, Dan Mass.
Ann: Sammy appears to be a lady. She is on the BuzzFeed staff.
Aminatou: Oh cute, cute. So Dan Mass. I like this a lot. I just wish we had workshopped the snacks a little.
Ann: Yeah. I mean I think that with some editing this would be an incredible book that I would love to gift to 12-year-olds who are about to start their periods.
(16:00)
Aminatou: I mean I would mostly give this to 12-year-old boys and be like "Hello, here's what's happening in the other half's life."
Ann: Oh my god, so true. Speaking of awesome children's books there is a new children's book called Rad American Women From A to Z that recently came into my life and all of the children I know are getting a copy. It is a delight and it is I think sold out or not available on the City Lights Books website which published it or on Amazon. I have to go to my local occult feminist book shop.
Aminatou: I mean is it out of stock because of some sort of publishers dispute or because it's actually good?
Ann: Who knows?
Aminatou: With Amazon you never know now.
Ann: The point is you have to go to your local occult feminist book store and publish it there.
Aminatou: Oh my god, it looks like there are non-white women in this book.
Ann: Dude, there are so many non-white women in this book.
Aminatou: That's my only rule when I give children's books, if they're not about science they have to be black books. I give them to white babies all the time.
Ann: I mean doing the Lord's work but also this book features scientists and people who are not white. It's awesome.
Aminatou: I can't handle all this information. That is madness.
Ann: It's incredible and you should buy it for all the babies in your life.
Aminatou: Man, so many babies being born this summer.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: So many. So many babies in my life. I'm excited. I feel like I'm going to be a cool auntie.
Ann: Yeah, they're all getting this and Angela Davis onesies. [Laughter] Hand-screen printed by some feminist somewhere who sells them on Etsy.
Aminatou: That's, you know, I feel like that's a little extreme for the babies in my life but I'm glad you are going there. [Laughs]
(17:45)
Ann: Only for the boys that really need it.
Aminatou: Ugh, I know. Controversial opinions abound. It's crazy. That's almost like hi, here's an Assata Shakur onesie. Please give this to your baby to wear. Oh my god, I'm going to make those.
Ann: I mean I was just about to say you can make a killing with that. You should really make those.
Aminatou: You know, she's been on my mind a lot because now that we're paling up with Cuba you know the minute they fully open up relations Chris Christie is going to snag her back to New Jersey.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And that's going to make me really sad.
Ann: That was a terrifying mental image of Chris Christie snagging anyone back to New Jersey.
Aminatou: I mean that's how he's going to run for president. That's what his whole presidency is going to hinge on.
Ann: Hmm. Forcible kidnapping?
Aminatou: My favorite bully. My favorite bully. That man looks so good in a windbreaker though, it's crazy.
Ann: It is true that some white guys are just made for windbreakers. Just like made to wear windbreakers.
Aminatou: Yeah. Yeah. During Hurricane Sandy whatever one he wore I was obsessed with all the time. [Laughs] That storm didn't break us.
[Music and Ads]
(20:40)
Aminatou: What else?
Ann: I wanted to talk about couples therapy for people who are not couples. That was the other thing on my list.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Sure.
Ann: Which maybe you're already over this because tech world but there was an article in the times this weekend maybe? Recently? About when tech co-founders are in couples therapy, like with a traditional relationship therapist. And it was hilarious to me and I was wondering if you would ever go to therapy with me.
Aminatou: I mean, you know, full disclosure I think we are in some sort of form of informal therapy. Let's be real.
Ann: Like this podcast is therapy.
Aminatou: [Laughs] This podcast. You know, the checking in. All that stuff. I would totally go to therapy with you. I am very pro-relationship therapy even if it's not romantic therapy. I think sometimes you have to work stuff out.
Ann: With like a mediator. With a professional, not just . . .
Aminatou: Yeah, with somebody that you pay who is an impartial observer.
Ann: Right. I agree with that. I just sort of wonder what they actually talk about. It's like you didn't honor my feelings in that meeting with the VC the other week. I really felt undermined.
(22:00)
Aminatou: I don't know, I feel like you're being a little reductive here. I think that -- actually not a little; a lot.
Ann: [Laughs] This was a trick to get you to defend tech bros.
Aminatou: Fine. I'm not going to defend this particular set of tech bros but I do think that when you work with someone in a partnership it's really easy to, you know, just say "Oh, we're both chill. We can get stuff done," or whatever. I think that's very disingenuous and it's not true. It's really hard sometimes to honor your personal relationship while at the same time thinking about your business relationship and these guys are obviously, you know, they're running a really successful business even though I think it's stupid. [Laughs] But what do I know?
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know, and I think that it's . . . I actually think that it's kind of sweet that they care about each other's feelings so much, like they care about their friendship as much as they care about their success and their business. My favorite anecdote in that story is how they'd watch Good Wife and I was like god, all of the bros in my life watch Good Wife even though they don't deserve Alicia Florrick.
Ann: [Laughs] Listen, the thing that stood out to me was this quote from a psychologist who has clients like this who said a lot of these people have never worked for anyone. They have no effective models of what leadership is. And it was reminding me of how the sort of abnormal situation is to have a healthy work environment with a really good leader or boss at the top and the far more common scenario is to have a crazy workplace that's like, you know, all -- you know, no good models and no good ways of processing conflict. And it's just so funny to hear it talked about as it's a strange thing to not have seen good leadership before.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I feel like that's the norm.
(24:00)
Aminatou: I mean unfortunately that is true. I wish more business couples went to therapy.
Ann: Oh my gosh, like who else? Maybe they already do and we don't know it.
Aminatou: I bet you Oprah and Gayle go to therapy.
Ann: I can see that.
Aminatou: I bet you they do.
Ann: I'm trying . . .
Aminatou: I'm like strong opinion not supported by an ounce of truth.
Ann: I'm struggling to come up with other duos now.
Aminatou: But some people also talk it all out, like the Kardashians go to therapy as a family and it's on the show often. It's interesting.
Ann: Yeah, but I think that there's an assumption. You know, family you can't really get away from but people are often taught if work is really hard you look for a new job or you figure out how to part ways. And so I think . . .
Aminatou: I know, but can you imagine asking your sister or your mom to go to therapy with you? And I'm thinking about your real family, as lovely as they are. That's a hard thing. It's a really hard thing.
Ann: Oh my god, yeah, are you kidding? For mid-westerners therapy means you've killed someone or done something really terrible and that's the only reason you would ever talk about your feelings with a stranger ever.
Aminatou: I'm really glad you've come around to therapy. I remember when we were becoming friends you said something that was slightly dismissive of it and I was like oh my god, she's going to think I'm a crazy person because I go to therapy for everything.
Ann: I was raised with a strong cultural anti-therapy bias which I don't think is correct but it's definitely . . . it's in there deep.
Aminatou: It's in there deep. Well, you know, now that you live in California I'm sure that you've softened to this.
Ann: Oh my god, for sure. I was part of a conversation yesterday where two of my friends were talking about having left their therapist for a witch so it's like next level.
Aminatou: Too far. I love my therapist. He's the most important relationship in my life. [Laughs] So . . .
(26:00)
Ann: People will be like did Ann hang up? Where did she go?
Aminatou: No, you're just like this is too much to deal with. I'm bored with witches. Now I'm bored with loving . . .
Ann: P.S., did not say I'm onboard with witches. Just saying I've gotten comfortable having this conversation.
Aminatou: I just -- I think witches is the best scam going around right now. Like it's genius. It's so genius.
Ann: Occult, so trendy right now.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, totally trendy. [Laughs] And I'm cool about a lot of stuff but I'm from Africa. I don't fuck with occult shit. I see it. Do I believe in it? I'm not comfortable disclosing. But definitely not fucking with it.
Ann: Oof, truth.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, it's crazy. No, occult -- it's also like white privilege. I'm sorry. It's like people who can afford to do and think about that kind of stuff.
Ann: It's so true. Maybe it wasn't white privilege, and we're talking Salem era, but now definitely white privilege to be supes occult.
Aminatou: I know, and also trends are so . . . I mean capes are so trendy right now.
Ann: Okay, let's not bring capes into this. Different thing.
Aminatou: Please. You want to be an original witch. [Laughs]
Ann: Leave capes alone. I can keep my capes and not be a witch/a witch impersonator.
Aminatou: Oh man, speaking of something else we're going to disagree about tell me about your Toni Morrison feelings.
Ann: Okay, I don't . . . I mean I have a lot of feelings about Toni Morrison obviously but she was on Fresh Air recently because she has been everywhere recently and she was talking about her regrets.
Aminatou: That's right.
Ann: And I mentioned to you that I thought it was rare and kind of refreshing to have a woman who -- she's 84, is that right?
Aminatou: Yes.
(27:52)
Ann: In her 80s be like "Yeah, I have some regrets." Because I feel like so often, those interviews, a lot of times they have this sort of hard-charging "It was all worth it. No regrets. I did what I had to do." And that's it. And I totally understand why you would want to say that but I found it interesting that Toni Morrison was like so many regrets.
Aminatou: I mean so I haven't read the book yet. I listened to the Fresh Air interview. I think that -- I love that she put it in the context of her family and raising her sons.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Because that's a side of her we don't hear a lot. I just -- I'm just like I don't know who are these older women that you were talking about that are like "I have no regrets" because the thing that has made me really sad about this whole Toni Morrison media tour, as much as I'm like you are the queen, I love you, is I'm like oh, this is a woman in the for real sunset of her life. You know, she's 84 and it's like real talk. Real talk express from here on out. And so, you know, I don't know, hearing some 60-year-old woman saying she doesn't have regrets I'm like that's cool but you have like, if all goes well, 20-plus years. Come back to me when you're 85 or something. But with this, I don't know. I think that she's being real. Obviously we both appreciate that. I'm just not buying this whole I have no regrets, I did it my way weird thing.
Ann: Well I guess -- so for context, you're right, she's talking about her kids. She's mostly talking about her personal life. And a lot of times I think when women answer that question or say "I have no regrets" they're talking about their professional life which is really different. So yeah, you're totally right. But I'm not sure there's that much of a difference between 60 and 80, and maybe they don't say . . . I mean yes, there obviously is. But in terms of their point-of-view of what they've done in previous decades of their life.
(29:50)
Aminatou: Man, I think there is such a difference between 60 and 80. Like 60 you're, you know . . . if Barack Obama didn't screw you over you're probably retiring. [Laughs] You are -- you know, you're about to have some free time for the first time in your life. There's no kids at home if you had kids when you were 40 or so. I don't know, I feel like you have so much life to give and I . . . you know, I'm not dismissing. I'm not dismissing 80-year-olds completely. I think it's beautiful that she's 84 and she's so prolific and she's out there. I just don't think that we have a lot of models for that age specifically. You know, even in my life when I think about people who are that age I know very few of them.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And in public life there's even fewer of them.
Ann: How old -- I'm trying to remember the cover of the article . . . the interview with Vivienne Westwood, how old Vivienne Westwood is.
Aminatou: Let's look up the . . . what does Josh call the Internet?
Ann: The global mind. What does the global mind have to say?
Aminatou: [Laughs] What does the global mind have to say?
Ann: So she's 74. Vivienne Westwood is 74.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: And she -- again it was mostly professional but in this interview which is a year or two old at least it was kind of similar and the op-ed that Oliver Sacks wrote when he was diagnosed with terminal cancer, which he wasn't like . . . I don't think the phrase no regrets was used but the tone of it is very much I lived the best I could. It was great. I don't dwell on negative stuff in the past. That was sort of what the overarching theme was. It wasn't yeah, it still bothers me when I think about how I could've done things differently as a parent, daughter, sister, friend.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, that's fair. I think we generally agree. Okay, cool.
Ann: [Laughs] Glad we talked that out and we need to both read the book.
Aminatou: I'm just like I don't know who are these 80-year-olds that you know that are like I regret nothing.
Ann: I actually do . . .
(31:50)
Aminatou: Life is full of regret, especially in your personal relationships. Obviously boss lady is going to boss lady but I think it's really beautiful and wonderful that she can look back on her life and have so much wisdom to share.
Ann: I mean Toni Morrison, endless wisdom to share.
Aminatou: I know. Did you read that New York Times magazine profile of her?
Ann: I did. I did.
Aminatou: It was so good. Oh my god, the art alone is amazing. You know I'm not a magazine hoarder. I think you should throw everything away. But I'm going to hang on to that cover for probably a couple more weeks. [Laughs]
Ann: It's beautiful. You know . . .
Aminatou: But I loved her story about how Barack Obama called her for her birthday party and everybody was like "Where are you going to have it?" and she's like "Duh, at their house. At the White House."
Ann: And they were also like "Toni, you can wear jeans if you want to." And she was like "Are you kidding me? Like I would wear jeans to the White House? Go home."
Aminatou: Yeah, she's like I'm an adult professional woman. No thank you.
Ann: The thing about that article, everyone sort of characterized it as a profile and it was in a way but what made it so good to me is it was very much about where she fits into the current landscape. It wasn't like let's just focus on her as a blip or as a single creative force. It was really about the ecosystem that she exists in and she's worked to create and that is not what a lot of profiles actually accomplish. Like it did so much more than that.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, it's so -- god, it was so good. I'm in love. Just in like complete awe.
[Clip Starts]
Toni: I guess I'm depressed. I don't know. [Laughs] I can't explain it. Part of it is the irritability of being 84 and part of it is being not as physically strong as I once was. And part of it is my misunderstanding I think of what's going on in the world. And so writing for me is the big protection, but when I'm not creating or focusing on something I can imagine or invent I think I go back over my life. [Laughs] I don't recommend this by the way. And you pick up oh, what'd you do that for? Why didn't you understand this? Not just with children as a parent but with other people, with friends. So it's a long period of . . . it's not profound regret. It's just a wiping up of tiny little messes that you didn't recognize as a mess when they were going on.
[Clip Ends]
(34:45)
Ann: So since our last podcast we had this incredible opportunity to meet a couple of listeners, or rather one listener and her bestie which all things podcast-related have to include a bestie clearly. We had this amazing dinner at a restaurant in L.A.
Aminatou: So good.
Ann: Because you were still in town for your birthday, as part of Open Tables -- 100 Open Tables thing which is a thing that you can Google and watch the video and maybe see a shot of me in the video that looks like women laughing alone with salad but I wasn't eating salad.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: But it was so great to meet listeners IRL.
Aminatou: I know. Charlotte and Daniel were A++. Hopefully they liked us as much as we liked them. [Laughs] I'm like the perils of bestie double-dating, right? But yeah, they were really scueet. I was going to say sweet and cute and then made up the word scueet. I don't know. [Laughs]
Ann: Scueet. We had a lot of wine.
Aminatou: They were really sweet, we had a lot of wine, and their bestie story was really cute too.
Ann: Oh yeah.
Aminatou: Those ladies are awesome.
(35:55)
Ann: Those ladies were like third-generation besties. Their mothers and their grandmothers had been besties. I was just in awe of the bestie legacy.
Aminatou: I know, right? It was kind of mind-blowing.
Ann: Ugh, so good.
Aminatou: May all our children be besties.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Okay, that's it for this episode. You can find us online at callyourgirlfriend.com or drop us a note on Twitter at @callyrgf or email us, also callyrgf@gmail.com. And find us on iTunes and rate us and leave us a nice message. We would love you for that. See you on the Internet.
[Music]