Your Time to Shine
3/27/15 - We discuss how to start your own podcast, making friends after college, and key reading for baby feminists to learn more.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
SAINT WKND - Positive Vibe
La+ch - California
Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend
PODCASTING
So many audio production resources at Transom.org. Try Soundcloud’s easy podcasting tools and get your work out there with PRX. And, this weird but somehow still charming Canadian dude will teach you how to fake a sound booth for $23.
TINY BABY FEMINIST SYLLABUS
Watch this and this and basically everything on this list, read everything by Audre Lorde and hang on to Janet Mock's every word, oh and Roxane Gay. Everything Roxane all the time. Also Ellen Willis || listen to jams by Lorde and Grimes. Beyonce is important too.
TRANSCRIPT: YOUR TIME TO SHINE
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: My name is Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: We have a jam-packed agenda this week. We'll be answering your emails about how our humble little podcast began and how you can start your own, making and keeping friends at the end of college and beyond, baby feminist syllabus, and obviously This Week in Menstruation and maybe even the winner of our period joke contest.
[Theme Song]
(1:00)
Ann: We had more than one email from listeners saying "What advice do you have to women who are getting started? Or what advice do you have for starting a podcast? What do we need?" And I feel like this is actually pretty easy to be transparent about. So what advice do you have about starting a podcast?
Aminatou: Dun-dun-dun-duh. Well seeing that I'm now a seasoned podcast professional.
Ann: It's been almost a year.
Aminatou: It has, right? Man.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Whoa. We should have a big party for that.
Ann: We should have a party.
Aminatou: Love a party. I think for you and I having Gina was really instrumental in getting this podcast off the ground because we -- you know, 1) it was her idea; 2) she's kind of the wiz behind the production of it. So I would say that talking to somebody who is a good producer or learning how to produce yourself, that's kind of instrumental. Getting the right equipment. I would say our equipment was not expensive at all right?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Am I making that up?
(2:00)
Ann: No. I mean and part of the reason we knew what to order is because Gina who has worked in public radio kind of had a sense of okay, here's what's affordable but would still make you guys sound good. So we both ordered a Blue Yeti microphone and a microphone stand and a pop filter from Amazon and then we paid to download software called Audio Hijack Pro. And that is pretty much the extent of Amina and my tech setup, right? I mean -- and headphones I guess but that's pretty much it.
Aminatou: Yeah, which I already own fabulous gold headphones.
Ann: Ugh, I need new headphones.
Aminatou: I'll send you links. I've been doing some headphone research.
Ann: Please.
Aminatou: So yeah. I mean, you know, maybe Gina this is a good place for you to butt in.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And explain the process a little more.
Gina: Yeah, so the biggest thing to keep in mind is developing a setup that really works for you that's going to be simple and easy but then for your listeners is also going to be intelligible enough audio for them to hang in there. So as Ann and Amina mentioned we sort of knew what our constraints were and some of what our budget was but for about 300 bucks or less you can get a high-quality podcasting microphone with a USB input that'll plug right into your laptop. You can buy a license for a cheap piece of software like Audio Hijack Pro that allows you to record that audio that's coming into your computer. There's way more fancy and sophisticated ways to do this like I'm a professional radio producer so if I'm working at a radio station there's lots of gear. But you don't need that to have kind of a core, listenable sound that's exciting, that lets you get going quickly. There's a couple of great resources to do that.
(3:55)
The mics that we use are made by Blue Microphones. They have some great tips on their website for getting a quality recording in a home office or in a space that's ordinarily if you're an audio pro, people that work in post-production sound for film and television, these are the kinds of spaces that drive them crazy because they're difficult to work with. So they give you all the tips and tricks about how you can really cheaply make a little box to absorb sound out of foam you would buy at Home Depot and a file crate. So that's even getting ahead of ourselves.
What you really need is a passion for a subject, the consistency of your time, and then a few key items. Some resources for this, I mentioned Blue Microphones. They have that great tutorial on their site. Soundcloud has an easy podcast publication system that will push out to iTunes that I think is free if I'm not mistaken and that allows you to embed that player on Facebook, on your personal website, anywhere that you want, and also get your feed onto iTunes.
And then another great resource is a website called transom.org and these are audio podcasting and radio professionals. You will hear examples of great work, thoughts on how you tell a story in audio. It's just incredibly inspiring kinds of documentaries that are posted there. Then they do things like gear tests with different audio samples so you can say hey, I don't really need that 600 dollar microphone when this one sounds like this. Or oh, maybe all I need is a little attachment for my iPhone.
A hot tip, I am recording this as we speak on my iPhone and it's not a fancy one. It's a 4S. I'm talking into the microphone using the built-in software called Voice Memos. I'm in a quiet room and that's all I have to do.
(6:00)
Now the other thing you might want to think about is editing. I do edit the show a little bit, so taking out little pauses, removing a word here and there. If there's a section you want to start over, saving some questions for later episodes, you can learn to do all of that using some of the resources we talked about. But also keep the focus on what do you do well? What's the story that you want to tell? And my one rule of thumb is just please never more than an hour. Unless you have an interview with the president or the most important person in your field I never want to hear a conversational show over 60 minutes. That's just my breaking point. Let your listeners binge listen. If they love it leave them wanting more. It's like the party rule, always leave 15 minutes earlier than you really want to leave the party. Go out on a good note.
Ann: But I also think though on a level of not just having a friend who's in the know but group accountability. I mean one reason I think we have been successful at this -- it feels good to say that, we've been successful at this, I was sort of hesitant -- is because we are consistent. You know, we do this every other week and we make it happen and if someone's busy it's not an excuse because we're accountable to each other and not just listeners who we've never met. And I think that really helps. I don't know. What else?
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, I think too that we are really #blessed that we get to do something that we love, you know? This is not like super far removed from the way that we usually interact.
Ann: [Laughs] Too close sometimes.
Aminatou: And dare I say this is one of my few side projects that I've enjoyed every single step of the way.
Ann: Right.
(7:50)
Aminatou: There's never like a heaviness of "Ugh, have to talk to Ann today." [Laughs]
Ann: Thank you. There have been moments where you've been screaming about your microphone or there's been a frustrating tech problem that have probably not been fun.
Aminatou: Yeah, but you know, you're always in the mix so . . .
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: There's that. So yeah, I would say pick your interests. It's also been really surprising to me what people actually care about, you know?
Ann: Say more.
Aminatou: Like if you had told me we were going to do a podcast about lady periods, occasionally talk about poop, you know . . .
Ann: We get a lot of emails asking for more poop. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, ladies love to talk about poop. You ladies are crazy. If you had told me that, that something that's just my general expression of myself that I would find medium success in doing that I would not have believed you.
Ann: We also had some experiments in the beginning where I think we tried to be a little bit more not scripted but intentional about what we were going to cover. And we do discuss upfront what are some of the articles or stories we want to talk about but mostly we kind of let the conversation go where it wants to and we don't try to read from a script. I mean Gina was saying to me the other day that one reasons why actors and comedians make good podcasters is they're good at reading scripts or telling jokes or sort of performing things that they've said before and you and I are not those people. We are people who are good at just having a good conversation.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And so thinking about what you're good at is probably -- not to demean your acting skills but . . .
Aminatou: Aww, what a bummer. Yeah, I'll just take some more acting classes until I get better at this. Yeah, you know, I say follow your own bliss, your own inspiration. See what you want to do. Also, surprise, there's like no women in podcasting so please if you are a woman who likes podcasts you'd be surprised at how much easier it is or accessible it is than you think it is. And I think that the airwaves would just be better in general for having more ladies talking.
(10:00)
Ann: Right. But it's definitely true that there are, if you're like oh, uh-huh, I've had a hard time finding podcasts with women who share my opinions or point-of-view, like talking about issues I care about -- other than this one obviously because you're listening -- maybe you should start one. Yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah, totally.
Ann: Because it is true. It's frustrating to see the absolutely explosive growth in podcasts and the sort of infrastructure around them start to get built up. You know, these networks that are both independent and affiliated with places like Slate and the ex-This American Life people like Inlet (?) and, you know, they're starting to become sort of a . . . I don't want to call it a food chain but there's a scale now of super-independent to super-well funded and ensconced in media institutions and all up and down that chain I don't really see that many women. And that is awful.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean isn't that also true for public radio though? I think I read somewhere, and I think we -- or at least in my life this is true -- most of the people that I know that are producers for radio are well-educated white women but they never make it to the front of the microphone for many reasons.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Audio ladies, they're everywhere.
Ann: Are you telling people to be the talent? [Laughs]
Aminatou: I am. Be the talent. I mean being the producer is the talent.
Ann: Totally, totally.
Aminatou: I just always wonder why the editor/writer problem, you know, what are the dynamics that make that possible? And yeah, we get a ton of email from people that say they want to start their own podcast so presumably the lady podcast pipeline is strong.
Ann: Right. At least the desire is strong.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know? Also just do it. It's fun. It's like a minimal investment from you. It's also a good challenge, you know?
Ann: Yeah.
(11:50)
Aminatou: You're an acclaimed journalist. I'm an acclaimed non-journalist. [Laughter] Figuring out the audio puzzle, it's been really, really, really fun. I will say that.
Ann: Yeah, and it also . . . I mean it gets better. In terms of the technical stuff I think that we talked ourselves through a lot of early technical setbacks by just being like this is what we're here to figure out. Like we're doing this podcast so we can learn this technical thing that actually isn't that hard by doing it week in and week out.
Aminatou: If you are a lady that has a podcast you should write us though because we want to know more about it.
Ann: Yeah, we would love to shout them out. The other thing that is sort of I think proven by a lot of these new podcast networks is that people don't know where to find the next great podcast after they've binge-listened to the archives of one so it would be great if we could tell the people who listen to this podcast to listen to your podcast once they've gone through our archive and are like "Give me more." It would be great to just be like "Here are 25, 50, 60, 70 podcasts by women."
Aminatou: One million podcasts.
Ann: One million.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Also, you know, I'm excited about podcasts because I think reading and writing is basically over so I think that audio is the future. I'm so lazy.
Ann: So this is me planting a flag in my post-writing future.
Aminatou: Ann, this is your post-writing future. You'd better double down and invest here.
Ann: Are you telling me you want to go weekly?
Aminatou: This is basically the -- I'm telling you I want to go daily. [Laughs] I want to go steady. No way. There are people who have daily podcasts. I don't know how they do it.
Ann: What?
Aminatou: It's like mind-boggling.
Ann: Okay, that is truly mind-boggling.
Aminatou: I know.
Ann: The thing that matters most is even if you do it once a month or whatever just being consistent. You know, not doing it like "Oh, I'm going to wait three days then I'll wait three weeks and I'll put it out whenever I feel like it." I think this is something I've found to be true in other media as well that consistency matters so much. Just like . . .
Aminatou: Yeah, people need to know when to find you.
(14:08)
Ann: Totally, totally.
Aminatou: Where to find you, same place, same time.
Ann: Oh yeah, and buy that URL. Buy the URL for the podcast.
Aminatou: Oh yeah. [Laughs] If you have any remote inkling of an idea of something you think would be a good podcast do it. I guarantee you it'll be so much better than you think it is.
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: And we can't wait to hear you.
Ann: Oh my god, yes, send us the links. All of the links.
[Music]
Ann: Do you want to read this other question?
Aminatou: Yeah, sure. So here's the next question. "I have a question that you've addressed in part in the past but here it is anyway. I'm nearing the end of college," aww, tender baby feelings, "and feeling like I've done it all wrong. I joined the wrong clubs and spent almost four years trying to convince myself to like people I have nothing in common with. Now I have a couple of months left and I've finally found some people who I can just tell are my kinds of people."
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: "The problem is that they're already friends and I'm coming in very late to the game. The prospect of making new friends at this point is utterly overwhelming and seems like a crazy thing to try to do. At the same time I have this terrible sense that this is the last opportunity to make real and lasting connections with all these interesting people while they're all in the same place. Do you two have any advice on end of college friendships, after college friendships, or breaking into social circles when you're a late bloomer?"
Ann: Aww.
(15:45)
Aminatou: This is very close to my heart.
Ann: Do you want to -- I have a story that relates to this but I'm sure you also have a story that relates to this.
Aminatou: I mean you tell me. I'm still emotionally recovering over here.
Ann: Okay, you take a feelings moment and I will tell my story.
Aminatou: Thank you.
Ann: Which is that at the end of my third year in college almost all of my friends had either graduated or were studying abroad. Basically I found myself facing down my last year of school with zero friends. Kind of -- you know, for different reasons, but kind of in the same scenario. And I ended up befriending some women who I'm still friends with to this day who were a couple of years behind me. And it's funny because it's really tempting to think of the end of college as this hard endpoint and I think it is for certain social dynamics but it's also life is long and friendship is long and sometimes when you befriend people at the right moment, even if you've only had a few months together, that's a friendship that carries on. And one of those friends who I befriended my last year, I mean I still talk to her every week. She's one of my closest. So shout-out Katie Blaire.
Anyway, I feel like you should never have that it's too late mentality and maybe the ways you form friendships are going to be different post-college but that doesn't mean you won't make friends. And that doesn't mean the friendships you make now won't last.
Aminatou: Aww, so, so true. So good. Ugh, Katie Blaire, what a great lady.
Ann: Fantastic woman.
Aminatou: Yeah. I didn't know that about you two. That makes it even more special.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: I really feel this question a lot because I think that I had the same anxiety about the end of college. Like I had a great, great time in college. It wasn't all easy but it was really -- it was as close to the movie college experience as you can get I guess.
Ann: Were there pantie raids? I feel like that's a movie college experience.
Aminatou: Yes Ann, duh. Please. I am a member of the student streaker association.
Ann: Oh my god, of course you are.
(17:55)
Aminatou: Like don't joke. So yeah, you know, I feel this a lot but I think that what you said about kind of expanding out your friend circle is really interesting. I was the same way. I finished college in three years instead of four. You know, I felt that the clock was ticking really fast. And I also started college in the spring, not the falls. So it's like when I went in I felt that everybody was already friends and I had so much catching up to do. My one semester of freshman year then the beginning of sophomore year were just very much like a lot of personal and social turmoils. I feel like I was generally in pause there. And it wasn't really until my junior year that my engine got roaring and I was like oh, I feel really alive here but I also just realized it was almost over.
There is the fantasy romantic element to college right? And just thinking oh, this is all packaged neatly and nicely. But I will say this about post-college friendship: that was the first time for me that I felt really liberated in making friends and thinking oh, all these people are my friends because we found things in common because we're in the same class or we go to the same school or our moms lived on the same street. You start to meet people for many different interesting reasons. It's obviously harder and it's a little trickier because you're not blessed with campus college dynamics anymore. That just makes the scheduling really easy.
But yeah, I've kept a few friends from college. They're all fantastic, fantastic, fantastic people and I cherish those friendships forever. But I think also coming out of college those first two years I met some really cool people and I think that it's really possible to do that. And, you know, to address the how do you break into a friend circle, that question, I feel like I'm currently going through that.
(19:55)
So, you know, that part is really tough but I think there's also one point where you kind of have to admit to yourself that you don't know the full story. Like it's really easy to feel like the outsider and be really intimidated by bonds that people already have. You know, and sometimes those are very true and very real and hard to break into and other times they're just . . . it's kind of like the movie that's playing in your head is different. And again the thing is be yourself. Everybody that is your friend likes yourself because you are awesome. Granted sometimes you have to turn your friend seduction mode to 100. [Laughs] Which for me manifests in saying yes to every single hangout opportunity, doing like a thorough thank you email links recap.
Ann: Oh, the links recap. So important in modern friendship.
Aminatou: You know, at the end of it. Things we talked about. [Laughs]
Ann: P.S. do you remember our links recap from our first meeting? Do you remember the subject matter?
Aminatou: No, what is it?
Ann: I do. It was about denim skirts.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Where you were like there are no cute denim skirts, I refuse to believe it.
Aminatou: I know, and then you wore a denim skirt to our first friend date. I remember that.
Ann: I mean I was like I have seen one or two and then it was like wearing the denim skirt to the first friend date was cementing our link exchange. That was after the first time we met.
Aminatou: I know, and you brought deviled eggs, I'll never forget that, to the party. [Laughs]
Ann: Bringing a tear to my eye right now. But really I wanted to actually make a comment as well on the whole friend groups thing because you are so right. So much of that is feeling like an outsider rather than sort of a group of people that feels like they identify themselves as a group and is actively trying to exclude you or deciding whether to let you in. Mostly I feel like adults do sometimes kind of hang out in prescribed groups but often they don't and this idea that -- I think it's predominant in college but it carries over -- that everyone has a group of friends and it's like you hang out with the group every weekend is true for some people but other people are free agents.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(22:00)
Ann: I feel like for most of my life I've been an interloper in various different groups. And I mean not that I don't have close friends but that's a role that I really like. I don't like feeling like I'm kind of seeing the same tight-knit group every week. I like the idea of being like I have close friends who I see in different contexts and sometimes I feel like an outsider among a specific group because I see them less often but that doesn't mean that they're like "What are you doing here?" Different friendship dynamics work for different people so I would also say that you shouldn't strive for a set group of friends who you see every weekend just because that's the narrative of what you're supposed to have in college. There are a lot of different ways to be happy with different friend configurations.
Aminatou: Totally.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: You know, I think too that that time that you take when making new friends is an interesting time to -- LOL, this is going to sound so ridiculous -- to work on yourself. [Laughter] And really do things that you appreciate. You know, like I don't know, think about the positive of this. It's like actually you have a lot of free time and you get to actually do the stuff that you want to do. Being 100% yourself. And this does involve a certain amount of getting out of the house to be fair.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Because if this were up to me I'd be like I am perfecting my napping skills.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, but just doing things that you would never do and getting new hobbies, like meeting new people, that's all okay. It's totally okay. There are different seasons in life. People come and go out of your life and people want to be your friend because of who you are, not because of what you have or whether you're super-cool or blah, blah, blah.
Ann: Right. Not because they decided they have an opening in their group.
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like oh my god, this girl. This girl's gone so there's a spot at the lunch table.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: That's not true. So this is really your time to shine and love yourself more.
(24:00)
Ann: And I also think that this is where the principle of -- I remember when I first moved to L.A. and I knew almost no one, Amina, you were like "Just remember that everyone loves you and wants to hang out with you all the time."
Aminatou: Yeah, no, it's true.
Ann: That actually is a really important thing to keep in mind when you're sitting at home like "Ah, I wish I had plans tonight but I don't really know that many people. There was that one number I exchanged numbers with when I met her at that party and she seemed cool but it feels aggressive to ask her to hang out two nights later," or whatever you tell yourself that might be weird about trying to initiate hangouts with new people. And you just have to get over that and realize if you don't initiate you will sit at home alone.
Aminatou: That's true.
Ann: You have to get comfortable with asking people to hang out.
Aminatou: This is really the CYG mantra. If you want something you have to go for it. You cannot sit at home and expect that 20 people are going to invite you to a thing, you know?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: You would be surprised at how many people just want to sit at home and do that, and I have found that a lot of really good friends I made is because I initiate hangouts. And I find that really funny because I'm really -- in real life I'm not that proactive of a person. I'm new to town and everybody has their really set friend groups and I'm trying to navigate that whole circle. But yeah, every Friday I'm just like who are the cool, interesting people that I met this week and then follow up with all of them. You have to be a little aggressive. It's really cute.
Ann: And also remember that the converse is true as well, that just because no one called you this Saturday doesn't mean that no one wants to see you; it just means they're also being inert or whatever. You know, it's sort of like if you want to see someone, call someone. It's the social if you see something, say something.
(25:50)
Aminatou: I know, you've got to be a planner. Also somebody has to do it. You'd be surprised at how few people do that. Everybody's just sitting around waiting to be called on a team. Not going to work.
Ann: It's so true. But you're going to be great.
Aminatou: To this person you're going to do great. College is a blast but after college is even better and it'll be really interesting to see five, ten years from now who the people are that you still talk to from college and hang out with. Like some of it will be fairly standard but some of it will surprise you too, like you get to rediscover people in different contexts and it's the best.
Ann: Totally, totally. And yeah, it could be someone that you met and only spent a month with in the same place but had a great long-distance friendship with. You never know.
Aminatou: I know.
Ann: Ugh, other lessons of CYG. This is just like a heartwarming special episode.
Aminatou: Aww, I know. This question made me very . . . I was just like aww.
Ann: She's going to be okay.
Aminatou: Yeah, she's going to be just fine.
[Music and Ads]
(30:15)
Ann: Hmm, all right. Do we want to take this baby feminist question or do we want . . .
Aminatou: Sure. Or what? What are our options?
Ann: No. I feel like . . .
Aminatou: I like options.
Ann: I was going to say I did want to do a brief circle back to the period joke because no one really sent us period jokes except for -- except for this one on Twitter which a listener tweeted: "I've had this period for so long it's starting to feel like an ellipsis."
Aminatou: [Laughs] Aww! Punctuation nerd meets period joke.
Ann: I know. But honestly unless I missed it in the flood of social media or buried in our inbox I feel that was the only period joke we received in response to our call for period jokes.
Aminatou: I will confess I was not paying attention so let's pretend that's the only one we received.
Ann: And it's the best one. I think we said we read the best one.
Aminatou: I mean, that one is pretty -- it's pretty good.
Ann: It's checking all of our grammatical boxes.
Aminatou: It's pretty incredible. I love it, I love it, I love it.
Ann: All right, let's talk about baby feminists.
Aminatou: Tell me.
Ann: I don't know, do you want to read this question or do you want to talk about some Shine Theory uplifting baby feminist doing great things? Choose your own adventure.
Aminatou: I love having choices but then I get overwhelmed. I'm going to read it. "My name is Maggie," great name, "and I'm a 22-year-old college student in Buffalo, New York." Ooh, I wonder what college is there. [Laughs]
Ann: It's freezing. All I know is it's freezing.
(31:52)
Aminatou: I know. I've been to Buffalo one time. It was, ugh, it was to visit a relative I do not like that I was . . .
Ann: You mean North Williamsburg?
Aminatou: And went to Niagara Falls. Oh, I'm lying, that wasn't Buffalo; that was Rochester. Sorry, never been to Buffalo. "I recently stumbled upon Call Your Girlfriend and my life has been completed. You guys are amazing in ways comparable to the queen herself Beyonce."
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: Hush your mouth. That is not true.
Ann: Rude.
Aminatou: Ugh, we are not worthy.
Ann: We're like 80% less . . .
Aminatou: "I cannot stop talking about this podcast to all my friends and I think I'm driving them nuts." I love how I'm just reading all the compliments. Where's the question? [Laughs] "Getting to my reason for writing I've always thought about myself as living on the feminist side of life." Ann, I love this.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: I love that turn of phrase.
Ann: I mean my Lou Reed cover, Take a Walk on the Feminist Side. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Ugh, Maggie, what a champion. "But listening to your podcast my feminist mindset is beginning to blossom and I realized I have so much to learn."
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: "What are the required readings, documentaries, websites, and podcasts for a baby feminist wanting to learn more? Where should I start? What are your recommendations and personal favorites? Thanks for creating the podcast, I'm obsessed with it. As I believe Matthew McConaughey would say 'Keep on keeping on' with what you're doing." Oh, Maggie, you just made my day.
Ann: This is so nice.
Aminatou: So good. Um, Ann, what are the required readings, documentaries, websites, and podcasts for a baby feminist wanting to learn more? Where should Maggie start? What are your recommendations and personal favorites?
Ann: Oh my god, it's so . . . I mean this is just such an expansive question I am desperately trying to think of in like the pre-social media dark ages when I started calling myself a feminist what I read and looked at. I think for me it was really important to read Susan Faludi's Backlash. It has lots of problems obviously but there was something . . .
Aminatou: Oh, that's so good.
(34:00)
Ann: But there was something about reading recent history where I was like oh -- and granted I read it closer to the time it was published -- but reading it and being like oh, this is why I thought what I thought about feminism and here's a context for a time when I wasn't reading the news but I was still getting those messages about it. So that was like an early awakening moment for me. But I feel like most of the phenomenal things I learned about being a feminist I learned directly from people I knew. Shout-out to Beth Pickins, the woman who made me a feminist.
Aminatou: She's so much woman. She's so much woman.
Ann: Right, which is not helpful and not really an answer to wonderful Maggie's question about a reading list or a documentary. Do you have like a thing that made you a feminist or that pulled it together?
Aminatou: So, you know, not to be this asshole again but I feel like I was always on the feminist side of life because I think for me mostly it was like a combination of pop culture but also the culture that I grew up in. It's hard to be a lady trying to find your way in Africa. And I grew up surrounded by this weird dichotomy, right? Where my parents were really awesome and even though they were a lot more conservative and traditional than I was also I was the oldest girl in my family and my dad never once made me feel that I couldn't be awesome or do whatever I wanted. And that was in such sharp contrast to other people in my family that I would see or other, you know, other families that we interacted with. And it's like a combination of that and watching Daria, like how can you not become a feminist?
Ann: [Laughs]
(35:45)
Aminatou: It's really funny because I think most people think the feminist brand is broken and has bad reputation whereas for me it was like man, this is a really good brand to align yourself with. Loud-mouthed teenager. I think also there's a lot of Alanis Morissette and early Robyn for me that really, really did it. What's a good . . .
Ann: It's funny. I actually think that's really important because the question in the way it's phrased, like what are the important books? What are the important websites? This sort of desire to research it makes a ton of sense and I identify with it and it would be really easy to be like read bell hooks and that's going to really give you a foundation for seeing lots of things and places, and that's absolutely true, you should do that. But I also think that there's this notion of paying attention to women who are talking about speaking their truth, talking about their lives, and not doing it in a way that puts down other women needlessly. Which is not to say they never disagree, but you know, just a generally woman-positive women. And also lots of different types of women.
Aminatou: Totally, right? Like you can go your own way. That's how I feel.
Ann: And I really wish someone had made this point to me as a white baby feminist in a very white-dominated social circle in a white-dominated college in the Midwest. I wish someone had been like "Yeah, all of the stuff that you're reading from people your professors say are the most important feminists, that stuff is important and interesting, but maybe you should learn about feminism from women with different backgrounds from those women."
Aminatou: Oh man, we totally had the intersectional section in my classes so I got it. [Laughs]
Ann: I mean I never formally took a women's studies class. I took things like women in the media that had feminist readings but weren't actually calling themselves like let's interrogate the belief system that is feminism. So I just wish someone had really strongly flagged for me that if you pay attention exclusively to women who have your background you're really getting one slant on feminism and that's not that useful.
(38:08)
Aminatou: I know. Resources that I wish had existed when I was an up-and-coming baby feminist? Number one, Rookie. Rookie is so great.
Ann: Ugh, I'm raising a prayer hand here in the closet.
Aminatou: Honestly basically just read Rookie and you'll be fine. Everything just comes to Rookie right in time. But also Tumblr in general man. I follow a lot of really good teens on Tumblr, and I'm like man. And some of them are still in high school and some in middle school and they have so much hope. I just keep meeting baby feminists that give me so much hope that everything is going to be okay because they're light years ahead of where I was at their age and light years ahead of most people right now.
Ann: Right. It gets better. Tagline also about feminism.
Aminatou: Yeah, feminism is awesome man. [Laughs] I sound like such a stoner. Feminism is awesome, man! [Laughs]
Ann: Right. But I think that the Tumblr point is actually interesting because I think that for feminism to be its most meaningful to you you kind of have to curate various sources of it. So the idea of being like okay, I'm going to follow this blog that highlights unknown women artists then I'm going to follow this blog that's like women in history I haven't heard of because history only tells me about three different women and they were the same three names I hear over and over and over. This blog will not mention Betsy Ross. Thank you.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: You know? And that can be combined with something that is more modern-day activism based and something that is a diary written by a trans girl, you know, who you will never meet but is very open about her life. And there's something about being able to put that together. I mean I found a lot of that stuff just based on what people I follow who are openly feminist also follow and what they re-blog.
(39:55)
Aminatou: Yeah. That said I will say the common denominator to all the awesome Tumblrs about feminism is always Audre Lorde.
Ann: Truth.
Aminatou: So follow the Audre Lorde light wherever you go.
Ann: Oh my god, search Audre Lorde on Tumblr. I bet that's just a wealth of fantastic things to follow.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, seriously. That and Janet Mock. Janet Mock also a gem.
Ann: Right. A one-woman font of amazing things to follow. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Ugh, her new show on MSNBC is amazing. She looks great all the time. Not to belittle how smart and everything else she is but her fashion game is on-point.
Ann: It's interesting, I keep thinking about this question of required readings. I don't actually know if there's one reading I would require for everyone.
Aminatou: Ann, we should pull together a baby feminist syllabus.
Ann: We really should. So I know that people have done this, obviously, but we can probably do it better.
Aminatou: Do a Call Your Girlfriend version. One thing that I will say too actually is a thing I'm fascinated with is I watch every fashion documentary that exists because I find that those have some really interesting feminist slants on them.
Ann: Tell me more.
Aminatou: Anything that highlights older models or . . . yeah, I think that just watching documentaries in general that feature women or women professions, whether you agree with what they're saying or not, really starts just -- your brain just explodes every single time.
Ann: Right. I mean not everyone who calls themselves a feminist is going to say something that's relevant to you I think is something that I also wish I had known early on in calling myself a feminist.
Aminatou: I know.
Ann: You know, like sometimes it's okay if someone says something that you think is super-bullshit and is calling themselves a feminist to be like okay, well I'm going to let you do that thing and it doesn't actually affect how I formulate my own feminist politics. Which doesn't mean you don't always say something about it but it does mean you can kind of parking lot it somewhere else.
(41:55)
Aminatou: No, you know, this is a thing that I actually constantly still harp about. It's maybe if you're a woman of color it's so much more. That realization comes to you very early on.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: That's been -- that was the lesson of my 20s and maybe the lesson that the Internet constantly teaches me, just because you like the same things as someone doesn't mean that you have the same politics. But also too it doesn't mean that you can necessarily trust them.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: So, you know . . .
Ann: Right, or trust them to put those politics into action in a way that you would.
Aminatou: No, totally, you know? I think especially in recent years social media has been really good at exposing this, right? Like what it means to say -- like when somebody says women what kinds of women they actually mean, right? And whether that's inclusive of all women or if it's specifically white women. Or even just realizing that feminist issues affect women of color and trans women very differently than they do white women. All of this to say watch fashion documentaries, watch that Makers documentary that's kind of really cheesing and is very 101 but it's great then follow up with everyone from the Makers documentary.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: I think that's a good choose your own adventure.
Ann: Yeah, totally. And hold on to what seems useful to you but also make space for what challenges you.
Aminatou: Totally.
Ann: Which is important white lady feminist advice.
Aminatou: And watch documentaries by female directors. Like anything Agnes Varda made you should watch on the Criterion Collection.
Ann: This is a great tip. I didn't even think of that. My mind goes immediately to the explicitly "Here is an essay about feminism" syllabus material.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And you are 100% right that you learn more sometimes from actually seeing women put it into practice.
(43:52)
Aminatou: I know. I mean for me I'm obsessed with second-wave feminism. Women that were born in that generation, whether they identify as feminists or not, I really gravitate towards their art and their thought and whatever, that's the rabbit hole that I go down when I'm researching things. It's like what is so-and-so up to and what is this person -- what did they read and what did they do? Tumblr is a great research mechanism for all of those things.
Ann: Right. And I feel like I've also learned a lot from actively seeking out writing from people who are not in the majority in certain spaces. I think about Jessica Hopper's Emo: Where the Girls Aren't essay which I was never even an emo fan but just as a distillation to what it means to be the only one in the room which is a thing that a lot of people have experienced at some point and found different ways to put into words about different spaces, or made art about in different spaces. I think that experience of being drowned out by a broader culture that is actively or subtly attempting to silence you and creating art or explicitly addressing that is -- all of that stuff is important feminist fodder.
Aminatou: Okay, well we'll pull together the semblance of a tiny, tiny three week seminar of some of this. [Laughs]
Ann: It's true, like watching, listening, reading.
Aminatou: Yeah, oh man, let's do that. Watching, listening, reading. Yeah, I'm also just a big fan of looking for that stuff in not the obvious places.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Like I'm not going to recommend Ani DiFranco. [Laughter] That's a little too on the nose you might say. But yeah, that's the thing, I don't know if maybe that's generational. I was just never into the very obvious feminist art that I was supposed to be into, like that stuff.
Ann: I think I didn't really have a strong moment with that either but I think it can be important for people who are just working on their feminist identity to have an example of someone articulating it really plainly.
(46:05)
Aminatou: I know, except she did that whole thing last year with the concert at the plantation or whatever.
Ann: Oh trust. Oh trust.
Aminatou: So, you know, she was on my bad side for other reasons but now I'm like hmm, I can throw shade at you on my podcast.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: [Laughs] But I'm also not familiar with her music so maybe I'll dabble this week.
Ann: Oh my god, good luck with that. Please report back from that.
Aminatou: Totally, totally. But yeah, Agnes Varda, hot tip. Great, great movies.
Ann: Ugh, all right. I feel like that's it.
Aminatou: Oh man, I wanted to talk about those tampons everybody keeps writing about but we'll talk about that next time.
Ann: I don't even know what . . . do you want to just squeeze this in so-to-speak?
Aminatou: I've gotten a couple of emails about this magic better than o.b. tampon situation except that it costs a million dollars on Amazon so I'm like I want to try them out but I don't want to pay for it. There's things -- maybe I'll do that. Oh, Ann, also I almost bought a Diva Cup so maybe for next time I'll try it and I'll report back.
Ann: [Gasps] I would love that. Please, please guinea pig.
Aminatou: Since I've gotten better at money maybe I'll start a period fund for all of the things I want to buy to try. [Laughs]
Ann: Period innovation fund.
Aminatou: Yeah. Maybe I can write that off on my taxes.
Ann: I mean this is work right? We don't really get paid but this is work.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Technically?
Aminatou: So good. Yeah, no, so perfect. Yes. Do you want to tell people where to find us?
Ann: Ugh, we are so everywhere on the Internet, at callyourgirlfriend.com, on Twitter at @callyrgf. You can also email us at is it callyrgf@gmail.com?
Aminatou: Yes Ann. [Laughs]
Ann: I mean everywhere, and then also on iTunes of course which here's a friendly reminder to leave us a good rating because that would be really nice even though your emails are probably better and the email was incredible today. But yeah, that's it.
Aminatou: Okay boo, I love you. I'll see you on the Internet.
Ann: See you on the Internet.