Ironic Beef-o-Sexual
3/13/15 - We discuss Hillary’s email, leaning in together, a menstruation anthem, beefy dudes undermining the all-women Ghostbusters remake, and shine theory in mountain biking.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
LINKS
Hillary’s inbox problem
Don’t call it “choreplay”
Medicating women’s feelings
The all-dude Ghostbusters remake
Shine theory in downhill mountain biking
TRANSCRIPT: IRONIC BEEF-O-SEXUAL
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: My name is Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda Hillary Clinton's inbox problem, woof; leaning in together and whether or not that's sort of brought down by the term chore play. Uh, what else? Oh, oh my god, a period anthem, tampons and Tylenol, and of course This Week in Menstruation. The lady Ghostbusters undermined by dude Ghostbusters. Shocking, terrible. And some Shine Theory and downhill mountain biking.
[Theme Song]
(1:05)
Aminatou: Ann, can I tell you something really funny? Somebody tweeted at me that whenever I say my name they heard it as Amina Tussauds like the Tussauds Wax Museum and spelled it out for me and it blew my mind. I was like whoa.
Ann: And you were like "You can call me madame." [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah! I was like also that's how I'm going to tell people to pronounce my name now. Awesome.
Ann: I mean that is actually a really good tip, things you learn from doing radio or audio things that you did not think of before.
Aminatou: Audio Things (TM). Yeah, no, that was great. It like made my whole week. It was like whoa.
Ann: Audio Things is going to be the name of our lucrative podcast network.
Aminatou: [Laughs] If you want to join the Audio Things network please email us.
(1:50)
Ann: Ugh. This is a reference to an earlier conversation we were having about how all podcast network owners and figureheads are dudes and how annoying that is and yeah, that's pretty much it. We were -- oh, big coup for us lately is we were featured in the lady's section of iTunes' recommended podcasts. I feel like that is also . . .
Aminatou: I think you mean the inspiring voices section. [Laughs] Which I like to believe only women can be inspirations.
Ann: Thank you Oprah.
Aminatou: Thank you Queen O.
Ann: We can come back to that rant about podcast bros and start with, you know, a personal update if you want. That's sort of a personal life update for me but . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs] I don't know, what's going on in my life? I don't have a period so I feel good. I just got back from L.A. where I saw you so that was awesome.
Ann: We hung out IRL. It happens. It happens sometimes.
Aminatou: It happens sometimes. Do you love how people were genuinely surprised by that? They were like "Oh!"
Ann: People were commenting on Instagram like "You're together?"
Aminatou: I know, I was like uh . . .
Ann: Rude.
Aminatou: I mean yes. Rude/just LOL in general. It made me really happy. Oh, Ann, get this. So you know that awesome cape I thrifted with you?
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: FedEx has not yet delivered it and I'm worried.
Ann: Uh-oh. Maybe all we will have to remember that cape is the photos I took of you in the thrift store looking absolutely regal in this white wool cape.
Aminatou: I'm going to sue FedEx. [Laughs]
Ann: I mean I think you have a strong case. A strong case.
Aminatou: I'm going to sue FedEx if they don't find it.
Ann: We also, to just update people who were not there at our IRL hang, went shopping for herbs for our container herb garden at my house because I don't know, we are that Oprah. [Laughs] And . . .
Aminatou: Oh my god, so much time at Home Depot. By the end of it it was like Twilight Zone.
Ann: We were fading. Well tonight I made a salad featuring herbs I trimmed from the garden and I felt super -- I felt like the protagonist of my own Nancy Myers film.
(4:00)
Aminatou: Wait, you already trimmed the garden for food?
Ann: Yes. That mint brush is already out of control. I bought the big one.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yeah, I mean I guess. Also can we just talk for two minutes about how hard it was to just find herbs in general?
Ann: I mean we had -- we were turned away at a few nurseries before we gave up and went to the big evil chain to buy our herbs.
Aminatou: I don't know, this is why I support big business, you know? They just like get it done sometimes.
Ann: Also I think this speaks to the difficulty of Googling where to buy herbs in southern California. It's just all weed euphemisms. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Like no, I actually want rosemary and thyme.
Ann: I actually mean culinary herbs.
Aminatou: I know. Also all the tomatoes have really funny names. Big boy tomato. I think I made that one up.
Ann: Which one?
Aminatou: It might've been big beefy tomato. Unclear.
Ann: Yeah, there's one -- I thought there were big girls and like beefy boys but maybe . . . [Laughs]
Aminatou: Maybe, or maybe you're just listing your sexual preferences. Who knows?
Ann: You know I do love both of those things.
Aminatou: Oh my god, this is how you know we're getting old. We've now spent three minutes talking about tomatoes and gardens. Next topic.
Ann: Yeah, I love it. Like our recounting instead of being like oh my god, the crazy shit that went down at the bar last night, we're like can you believe the names of those tomatoes at the Home Depot? [Laughs]
Aminatou: No, Ann, we went on like a two-hour brunch and neither of us had booze. I was very impressed.
Ann: I was also impressed. Healthy living.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Healthy, mindful living. New Amina. You know, it's like 30 is daunting. Your body betrays you.
Ann: Sure. Get back to me next time you're menstruating and we'll see if that's the case.
Aminatou: Oh god, yeah. I hope to never have another period on this podcast.
Ann: I mean that's like a really graphic visual.
Aminatou: I know. So far so good.
(6:08)
Ann: Do you want to talk about our girl Hillary in the news?
Aminatou: Oh my god, ugh. [Laughs] So first I'm going to put this out there: after Kanye the other person I have an unreasonable amount of love for is Hillary.
Ann: I know what I'm doing by raising this topic with you but also this is just one million facepalms. Why did you do this to yourself Hillary? Why?
Aminatou: So I mean . . . [Laughs]
Ann: Do we have to explain what she did to herself? Maybe we should back up.
Aminatou: I don't even know where to begin to start. So this is obviously email-gate, right? So first I really want to just shine a light on government services and how they're 100% problematic. Two, what I don't understand about email-gate is how everybody -- almost everybody on her staff including her has been using private email to supposedly email other people in the government and nobody called them out on it. I think that's crazy.
Ann: Is that testament to her power? Like how scared everyone is to call her out?
Aminatou: No, I'm convinced other people are just using their email too.
Ann: Well Lindsey Graham has never used email ever so you don't have to worry about that.
Aminatou: I know, that was my favorite thing in the entire world. You know I low-key have love for Lindsey Graham because he looks like a clown and he's . . .
Ann: Okay, that's the most absurd thing you have said on this podcast ever.
Aminatou: Listen, do you not have a little love for Lindsey Graham? He's so over the top.
Ann: I don't know.
Aminatou: He's so over the top. He's like a little old southern man. I'm like come on Lindsey Graham, we all know what's going on here. But anyway allegedly he has never used email.
Ann: Allegedly.
Aminatou: Allegedly.
[Clip Starts]
Lindsey Graham: I don't email. You -- no, you can have every email I've ever sent. I've never sent one. I don't know what that makes me but it . . .
[Clip Ends]
(8:00)
Ann: I don't know. Does that count like him hovering over the shoulder of a staffer and dictating or being like "Let me see. Let me see what it says." You know?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: It's like maybe your fingers have never hit send, I maybe believe that, but that's more of a being waited on hand-and-foot thing than a not actually engaging with email thing.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean also here's the thing about email-gate, right? It's just like one big searing indictment of Blackberries. Hillary didn't want to carry multiple devices to check her personal and her work email.
Ann: Okay, that's such a stupid argument. That is so stupid. It's so stupid. Like how many handlers does she have to help her juggle her multiple devices? I manage to somehow leave the house with three different devices and I don't have a support team. Like that is bullshit.
Aminatou: I don't want to throw any shade at you and how hard you work. I'm not even going to begin to compare your level of output to Hillary Clinton.
Ann: I'm not talking about output. I'm just talking about like fewer device management.
Aminatou: No, I mean like obviously. So here's the thing. Now I'm being really serious. I think that this whole thing is stupid. It's actually really stupid and it was totally preventable and I think that it's like a gamble that she made that people would not care and surprise, surprise, people do care.
Ann: Okay, but here's the thing.
Aminatou: Yeah?
Ann: How do you gamble that people won't care about this given that you are Hillary fucking Clinton who everyone wants to take down? Like a whole 50% of the electorate hates your guts and there's an entire party and conservative apparatus that has made whole movies about how terrible you are and is using your name to fund raise for every candidate of the opposing party because that's how much hatred your name can engender and you don't think that anyone will ever ask questions about this? I mean that's absurd to me.
Aminatou: Ann, but that's the whole thing of this whole scandal -- I'm doing the biggest air quotes you can do. It's like completely unnecessary.
Ann: [Laughs]
(10:00)
Aminatou: She's just like . . . I watched the press conference today, it's all everybody at the gym was watching which is really funny.
Ann: LOL.
Aminatou: But yeah, you know, it's like she's just admitting -- she's like maybe in retrospect I should've just used a State Department email address. And I'm like are you kidding me? If there's somebody who doesn't need the benefit of hindsight it's you.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Don't do that. But, you know, I think that also history has proven that people in the Clinton inner circle do really strange things and get away sometimes with strange things and sometimes not and who knows?
Ann: You know . . .
Aminatou: But here's the other thing Ann: this whole thing should not be a scandal. It's really frustrating to me that anything that a Clinton does no matter how small or big gets blown out of proportion this way. And like here's what we're saying about email-gate. What's going to happen when it's actually a real crisis? We're going to explode.
Ann: I actually disagree with you. I actually think it should be a scandal and I think it is unfair to sort of portray it as something only Hillary Clinton has done or is doing. I mean it's sort of like as someone with an interest in can things be considered part of the public record and how do we have access to this stuff as more and more important business moves to digital communication, I mean I don't know, you know all of this stuff probably better than I do for sure. But it's like just because it's not the worst thing happening right now doesn't mean it's not a scandal and doesn't mean she wasn't wrong. I mean I still think she was wrong even though it's like other politicians are hypocrites for calling her out on it when they're probably doing similar things. I still think she was wrong.
Aminatou: I think that she was wrong. I think that more than she was wrong everybody at the State Department involved was also wrong. I think that -- ugh, old people and email. [Laughs] That's the other way I feel deeply about this. I'm trying to stay Zen about 2016 and it's already started and it's already stressing the crap out of me. Did you read that thing in Mother Jones? I think it was like who's that old white dude at Mother Jones?
Ann: David Corn.
(12:10)
Aminatou: David Corn, that guy.
Ann: He looks like the eagle on the Muppets. Never mind.
Aminatou: Exactly. [Laughs]
Ann: Not meant to be an insult necessarily, just a likeness.
Aminatou: I know. Who knew this was a podcast where we threw shade at old D.C. journalists? Sorry David Corn.
Ann: He doesn't listen to this podcast, don't worry. No way.
Aminatou: Listen, it's just going to happen. But yeah, he wrote this really -- you know, this thing about the return of the Clinton media persecution complex and how basically since the days of Whitewater and Lewinsky this is . . . it's like the same media circus with them. So I agree with you that what Hillary did is wrong. I think everybody involved is wrong. But I still stand by my statement that it's not that big of a deal compared to other things that are happening even though it is very wrong.
Ann: Yeah, you're right. Probably part of my frustration stems from the fact that I am not ready to hop aboard the 2016 merry-go-round. I'm just not.
Aminatou: Wow, I really -- ugh, I don't think I can handle it. I really don't think I can handle it. You know, because you know the Hillary gender wars are just around the corner.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: I'm going to lose so many friends.
Ann: It's like a massive volcano that is about to erupt of Hillary gender war shit.
Aminatou: No, totally. And I think that, you know, I think that you can feel -- that anybody can feel how they feel about Hillary but to deny that she is completely shaped by her gender and that there's something so completely anomalous, is that the word maybe, about her place in politics? She is the only -- she's the only and she's the closest.
Ann: Right.
(13:55)
Aminatou: And she comes from a time and place where women were not supposed to achieve this kind of stuff and it's completely disingenuous to say that sexism is not a thing that happens to her. Or I'm also noticing a lot of people saying that she deploys her gender very shrewdly.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: And it's like surprise, when you're a woman your gender is a part of who you are.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: So yeah, I think my hesitation about getting onboard with email-gate is I can see the rest of the forest and I'm very terrified for what is to come.
Ann: I think for me it also has the significance, I mean when you say ugh, old people and email, I think about all of the early reporting on the various mini campaigns and factions within the Clinton universe and how technologically-speaking they are just not aligned and most of them are not in-sync in a way that you need to be to have an awesome tech strategy. And that's the kind of thing where I'm like oh god, it's not only a preview of all of this gender stuff that's coming but it's also a preview of fuck-ups related to technology and other things that make me -- you know, you're right, Hillary is an only of her generation but the of her generation part, her generation comes with some other drawbacks other than entrenched sexism being that she was the only woman to succeed from it.
Aminatou: So here's the deal: if you want to hear about another political old person email schedule Jeb Bush did the thing where he dumped all of his email out and he's like "Everybody, transparency. Here's my email." None of that shit was redacted so people's social securities are in there.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Numbers are in there. Very identifiable information. Which is also crazy and dangerous and bananas and yes, you know? Actually a little nefarious if you think about it. And surprise, surprise that one didn't get as much play.
(16:00)
Ann: Right. Fair enough. Well you heard it here probably last, Jeb Bush's email problem.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Email-gate, it's happening to an entire generation.
Aminatou: Oh my god. Oh, Ann, also have you heard these rumors about -- I'm sorry, this is total tangent.
Ann: No. Great.
Aminatou: About how George Bush maybe has Alzheimer's or is senile or something? That's why he's painting and we never hear him talk. Do you think this is true?
Ann: I would believe it.
Aminatou: I know! I was just like first of all I love how blessed my life is that I can, in the wild, in conversation with Los Angeles people, I was looped into George Bush gossip. That was great. But it kind of blew my mind because you know how I feel about his art, it's great, and I don't want to hear that it's from him . . .
Ann: This is inspiring me to send some images of his art to Bridget, my art therapist bestie, and see if she can analyze and tell me what's going on with him.
Aminatou: Oh my god, yeah. The bathtub one especially. I'm just like what?
Ann: Hmm, yeah. Yes. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Okay, so you know, this podcast. Come for email-gate, stay for George Bush rumors.
Ann: And maybe send us an email about how we're ageist while you're at it.
Aminatou: Ugh, it's true. It's true.
Ann: Not inviting controversy.
[Music]
Aminatou: Speaking of maybe women do you want to go into Sheryl Sandberg convo?
Ann: Oh my god, are you talking about chore play?
Aminatou: So I'm talking about #leanintogether which is the newest kind of iteration of lean in and it's Sheryl Sandberg partnering with the NBA with a very in my estimation inoffensive message that, you know, like men should do more chores. Granted so the New York Times -- this is in our favorite series of the New York Times, Sheryl Sandberg and Adam Grant which I just bought the Adam Grant book to read because everybody was going on about it so I'll report back on that in a couple of weeks.
(18:25)
But anyway the New York Times article announcing this was really stupid. I can't even recall the headline, the headline was really annoying, and then there's this whole part about like chore play and like your husband doing chores being really sexy and you can get down with that. I mean that made me laugh. It did not make me uncomfortable. I noticed a lot of social media dislike for this campaign and that was really mind-boggling to me at this point because all I could tell from people's objections is that they don't like it because Sheryl made it which I think is crazy.
Ann: Well, so to separate the idea of lean in together and the fact that men should be onboard from that New York Times op-ed specifically, I mean I agree that lean in together is not objectionable. It seems pretty basic stuff to me and if Sheryl wants to say it loud, great. But the op-ed, I feel like the reason -- in part because it's an annoying word, but the chore play thing speaks to this really old-fashioned idea that the way to sort of, I don't know, take good care of the women in your life or show them you're really an attentive partner is to do some housework. I remember maybe five or six years ago someone made a -- and I don't think it was a joke; I think it was sort of like a "Hey ladies, wink, wink" porn for women calendar that was just like men doing housework?
Aminatou: Seriously? [Laughs]
(19:55)
Ann: Seriously. It was called like porn for women and it was men doing housework. And so this is in some ways an old joke that to me is also a little bit insulting of men. It's like okay, how do we get men to be invested in the women in their lives advancing professionally? We make it sound like they might get laid or we give it a sex analogy which I think is sort of like, I don't know . . . so to me is spoke to this other strain of semi-patronizing language about gender roles across the board which is different from lean in together which is like yeah, cool, fine. Great.
Aminatou: No, totally, right? But this was part of the objection to the whole initiative. I completely agree. I think chore play is ridiculous. I think it's very old-school. But, you know, I've also talked to many a working woman who's a little turned on by a man who does chores so who am I to say that it's not . . .
Ann: I mean how hard is it to be like yes, scrub the toilet and then get me off sexually? You know what I mean?
Aminatou: How hard? I don't know Ann. You tell me.
Ann: Having it all. Having it all, right? Is that what it is? I don't know. But yeah, I think that it's also one of those things where it's really interesting to me to watch her try to take the book and make it become and ongoing conversation in a movement because given the fact that there is this book at the heart of it it's pretty hard to escape the criticism that -- and I saw this a lot in as well of lean in together -- that you're just trying to sell more books by dragging out the same thesis and applying it in all these different corners. But dragging out the thesis and applying it in lots of different ways is sort of the definition of like feminism or any ideology. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know, but here's the other thing: it's kind of preposterous to say that Sheryl Sandberg wants to get rich off of writing a book. That lady's already rich.
Ann: Sure.
Aminatou: This is not how she's paying her bills or going to send her kids to school. I think she genuinely saw a problem and wanted to address it in her own way. I think that also if you read the book the thing that she makes abundantly clear at the beginning of the book is that it's not for everyone which is both good and bad. But I don't think she's under any illusion that this applies to every woman in America. It certainly doesn't apply to me.
Ann: Right.
(22:14)
Aminatou: I think that one thing that's just been a little discouraging from seeing a response to what she's trying to do and a couple of other women is there's just no room to try anything. What's so offensive about her message that it can't -- like even if it doesn't apply to me and a ton of other women I guess my age or whatever, my generation, that she's still out there, she's trying, and it can coexist in parallel with a ton of other efforts.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Like I feel like whenever women come out with any kind of remotely feminist -- it even makes me nervous to say that lean in is a feminist thing. I think that if that were my book and I was marketing it that is one thing I would've never said is it's part of the feminist conversation.
Ann: You're right, like it's really hard to just keep -- I mean I can't imagine, I've never been in that position, but I feel like it must be really, really difficult to just keep going. That said I think it's also fair when someone has a position of prominence to sort of criticize. I mean I wrote an article after the ban bossy thing where I was like actually I think this is totally the wrong tactic whereas for something like lean in together I don't think that's the wrong tactic. I think the message is totally fine. I just -- it's not that revelatory to me. But you're right, maybe it is to some woman of a different generation or in a different circumstance.
Aminatou: Yeah, I just . . . I don't know. Maybe I'm just in a place where I'm really bummed out at seeing a lot of people try different things and all I see is reaction. Yeah, I'm like I don't know what you do if you're a young woman like us who has some really great revolutionary like here, I'm going to change feminism. How can you be not scared to even present your idea at this point?
Ann: Right, right.
Aminatou: Because, you know, it's a scary time for new ideas.
(24:05)
Ann: And women are scared to present their ideas. I met a really awesome younger woman this week. She sent me a link to a couple of things that she had written and I was like this is really great, what else do you have? And she was like "Oh, every time I publish something I really quickly make it private again because I get scared to have it public. Like once it's out there and as soon as someone reacts to it I'm scared of that." And I feel like some of that is just getting used to being comfortable with your words or whatever but a lot of that is this phenomenon of everything is fair game for, you know, a total attack.
Aminatou: Total attack. [Laughs]
Ann: Total attack mode. In my head I was actually picturing a shark. It was very vivid.
[Music and Ads]
(26:30)
Aminatou: This is all bummertown. Tell me something good or funny.
Ann: Well I actually -- I got some great joy from our CYG inbox because someone sent us a period anthem.
Aminatou: What?
Ann: It's called Tampons and Tylenol.
Aminatou: Oh my god, please tell me everything.
Ann: Hang on, maybe we can listen to a little clip Gina?
[Music]
Ann: It is by Genesis B, a woman I am not familiar with or hadn't been up until this moment.
Aminatou: Genesis B?
Ann: And it's not all explicitly about being on your period. Basically it's about being so rich your pockets are overflowing. You've got to stuff tampons in them.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And just the metaphor of like vast wealth and menstruation as a metaphor for vast wealth, I'm shedding, I've got so much I've got to shed a little bit of it, I've got to absorb this, is incredible.
Aminatou: I know. Full body chill over here.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: That's so good.
(27:45)
Ann: So that is a This Week in Menstruation posi vibe for you. Thank you Genesis B wherever you are.
Aminatou: Oh my god, I'm buying this. One dollar on Bandcamp? You deserve more.
Ann: All of our money on Bandcamp. We'll put the link in the thing and maybe all CYG listeners can buy this song once and we can create an incentive system for more period anthems.
Aminatou: I know, this is pretty phenomenal. Okay, I love it.
Ann: But also related to periods, I don't know if you saw this article in the New York Times a couple of weeks ago about medicating women's emotions.
Aminatou: Yes, yes.
Ann: And what was interesting is so the woman who wrote it was saying that what is often described as the hyper-emotional state during PMS is not an aberration or a problem that needs to be treated; it's basically women not meditating themselves and not bending themselves to society's will and they're just like "I'm going to be who I am this week because with my period and all I've just got to let it go."
Aminatou: I mean so I won't lie. When I read this thing it really -- I didn't think that's where it was going, you know? And it got really deep. Can I read a part of it?
Ann: Please.
Aminatou: The most insane amazing part of it. "In the days leading up to menstruation when emotional sensitivity is heightened women may feel less insulated, more irritable, or dissatisfied. I tell my patient that the thoughts and feelings that come up during this phase are genuine and perhaps it's best to reevaluate what they put up with the rest of the month."
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: "Their hormone and neurotransmitter levels are more likely programmed to prompt them to be accommodating to other's demands and needs." That shit is real.
Ann: So radical.
Aminatou: So much to unpack in this article.
Ann: Well so I was going to say that I really enjoyed that sentiment and I think it's very, to the greatest extent possible, sort of questioning okay, do I feel like this is a problem because it's actually a problem for me? Or is it because society makes me feel like it's a problem? That's like a good question to ask all the time. But she kind of goes on this tangent where she talks about how women are twice as likely to receive diagnoses of depression or anxiety disorders than men are and therefore be medicated for those. I kind of got to that point and I was like yeah, you know, but I also know lots of women who genuinely feel very helped by drugs for those things.
Aminatou: No, absolutely.
(30:15)
Ann: And I don't want to be the one telling them that they're succumbing to society's negative perceptions of how emotional they're allowed to be because they take drugs to treat those very real problems.
Aminatou: [Laughs] No, you know, yeah I think we're completely on the same page there. I've always felt really comfortable talking about my own medication and mental health. That was the thing that really struck me, right? I think that that's a really personal choice and it's kind of a fine line. The thing that I think this article really brought to focus for me is that I've always thought that that feeling you have, that PMS feeling, that was genuinely you being crazy. It's like female brain on fire, because for me it always manifests with too many feelings and crying.
Ann: Or just the right amount of feelings.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know? Like a hormone's out of whack. And that was something really radical to be told that no, maybe this is completely normal. And I don't know that I completely buy it, you know? Not in general for everybody. But for me at least.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Because for your own mental health you need to be in a place where you're more than coping and thriving at the same time. It's like what's the Venn diagram of those two feelings for you? And whatever helps you get there in a way that is authentic to you.
Ann: Yeah. And then I think that it has to be -- I mean I think she did a pretty good job but I also think that when we as friends of women who are considering taking drugs, or like -- taking drugs, I mean all kinds of drugs -- or are feeling like they're being overly emotional or whatever, it's really important to just rather than be like "Yeah, definitely take some drugs for that," you know, ask questions like "Hey, maybe the response you're feeling is totally natural to a world that is super fucked-up and that is really tough. And, you know, maybe this is the answer."
(32:10)
Aminatou: Right, like emotion is part of evolutionary biology.
Ann: Totally.
Aminatou: And your moods don't all need medication. That was really crazy to hear.
Ann: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like I, especially when I was younger, was super-judgy of women who I felt like couldn't get their emotions in check for whatever reason. I mean this is some real talk. And like that is so stupid. It's like absolutely absurd to think about that in terms of there is a normal level of how emotional to be or like an expected reaction that all women are supposed to adhere to in every situation. That's insane.
Aminatou: I completely agree. For me that's why, you know, even to the detriment sometimes of some relationships I've been really vocal about like my own dealing with anxiety or dealing with depression because it's not weird. It's like get over it, everyone deals with that, you know? And it doesn't mean that you're not like a high-achieving, high-performing person; it means sometimes you need help and that your body's out of whack.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Do any kind of reading on SSRIs and you're like yeah, the body is crazy. Meds are crazy. But you know sometimes you need things to cope and sometimes you've got to thrive and you just need to figure out where you're at.
Ann: It also reminded me of what is a pretty classic argument -- feminist argument about birth control, which is people on one hand being like you're treating the menstrual cycle as if it's a problem that needs to be solved when it's not, it's actually totally natural. And then on the other side women being like "I love hormonal contraception because I don't get pregnant."
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yes.
(33:55)
Ann: And like that is what I need to get through the day even if I agree with you on some deep, psychological level that maybe it's messaging to women that their periods are fucked up. And so I think that's important too to recognize that you can say maybe we are over-medicating women but also I need this to get through my day and solving problem A is a long-term thing and problem B is staring me in the face right now so I'm going to make a good choice.
Aminatou: Ann, you know that's my life. It's like what do I need in the short term? What do I need in the long term? And sometimes you've just got to do what you've got to do. Yeah, this article also kind of -- it did make me think a lot about men though, you know? And thinking about, you know, are there . . . no, it's true.
Ann: I love it. Men did occur to me in the course of reading this article. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Men occur to me occasionally, but you know, it's just -- you know, the sisterhood is so strong sometimes I'm like who are thinking about the men?
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: I was like in the same way how do we misread -- you know, how are we misreading men's emotional experiences, if they have them, LOL.
Ann: Boo.
Aminatou: No, I mean obviously JK. I feel like the ground around me shifted when I read this because I was really not expecting to go there.
Ann: Hmm. Speaking of men. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Ann, we already talked about men one time today. [Laughs]
Ann: Speaking of men, Ghostbusters and why do men think they can be a part of everything? They can't be a part of everything.
Aminatou: [Laughs] So Ghostbuster news. I laugh so hard.
Ann: Oh my god, backtrack. You have to explain the Ghostbuster . . .
Aminatou: It was a joke. So Ghostbusters is a movie from the '80s that people like a lot. I'm doing this to mostly troll our friend Amanda Mattos who made me watch Ghostbusters about a year ago. I'd never seen it.
Ann: She's furiously tweeting like ten Zul jokes at you right now.
(35:50)
Aminatou: [Laughs] So I watched. I watched the movie a year ago with her, it's one of her favorites, and you know that thing that happens when you show your friends your favorite movies and they don't respond the way you want them?
Ann: This is why I still haven't seen Goonies.
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean you don't have to watch Goonies.
Ann: Exactly.
Aminatou: It's just one of those things. I think that there are movies you watch when you're growing up and when you're growing up they're great then you're like I'm a fully-formed adult human. I don't need to be watching this. And the production value is not so great. So anyway cult movie. They're remaking a version with all great ladies. Who's in it? Kristen Wiig, Melissa McCarthy.
Ann: Kate McKinnon.
Aminatou: Kate McKinnon and Leslie -- oh god.
Ann: Leslie Jones.
(36:30)
Aminatou: Yes, Leslie Jones, that awesome, awesome comedian. So that's announced. Lady Internet gets really excited, Ghostbustresses. [Laughs]
Ann: Did people make Ghostbusty jokes? Did that happen?
Aminatou: No, that's good. You should register that URL right now.
Ann: I mean oh my god, Ghostbustiers? I feel like lots of products tie in. [Laughter]
Aminatou: My god Ann, you're such a clown.
Ann: My god, Ghostbustle. There's all kinds of lady clothing items that are super offensive that have a B-U-S in them. Anyway go on.
Aminatou: Anyway, so lo and behold today -- so the Ghostbustress announcement literally happened like two-and-a-half Internet weeks ago. So real. I think it's the 30th anniversary of the movie maybe, or maybe I'm making that up. Who knows. So today we get announced that there's Sony Pictures is releasing another remake in the Ghostbuster franchise this time starring all men.
Ann: I can't. I just -- I can't.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Like if this mic were not on a professional-looking stand I would drop it and leave my recording closet and walk away and just never look at the Internet again. I can't.
(37:50)
Aminatou: So obviously we have a conflict of interest because top boo Channing Tatum is attached to this project.
Ann: This is no conflict of interesting. Dropping Channing Tatum in a hot second over this issue.
Aminatou: Ann, this is what I said to people who confronted me about this: don't hate the player, hate the game. The game is dirty.
Ann: [Laughs] I don't know. I still kind of hate the player.
Aminatou: I mean listen, first of all this is crazy. I think Lady Busters, they're starting to shoot that imminently, like this summer, so who knows when that movie's coming out? But it's also the way that Sony -- they announced it as like a franchise companion to the previously-announced female Ghostbusters.
Ann: Franchise companion.
(38:35)
Aminatou: Which I think is hilarious. They're just like, you know, "Ladies go to the right. Men go to the left."
Ann: Ghostbusters for her.
Aminatou: I don't know what anybody was thinking. Also no matter how you feel about any people in this project, Ghostbusters -- controversial opinion -- Ghostbusters is not good enough it needs two remakes.
Ann: Nothing needs two remakes simultaneously. Nothing.
Aminatou: Oh my god, they're not even making new movies anymore. Everything is just going to be like Ghostbuster remakes forever. I want to see an all-black production of Ghostbusters next if possible.
Ann: With one token white Ghostbuster?
Aminatou: [Laughs] I want the Annie Potts character to be white.
Ann: I mean okay, that's a good character. If you want to give that to white people that's on you but . . .
Aminatou: I know. You guys have to duke it out, who's your best?
Ann: It needs to be -- the white Ghostbuster needs to be the one whose eyes get really wide and almost dies first but doesn't die because of some great act of saviourhood on the part of one of the other black Ghostbusters. That's the way to flip that.
Aminatou: Oh my god, I wonder if they'll both be called Ghostbusters or one will be like Ghostbusting Gals or Ladybusters. [Laughs] Dudes get the original title.
(39:45)
Ann: Here's why I hate the player and the game, because Paul Feig who's directing the lady Ghostbusters, presumably he and whoever else had a hand in that project made a choice at some point and they were like we want to make an all-female version of this movie. That would be an interesting way to redo this old franchise, and for everybody sick of Hollywood never making any new movies anymore it would actually feel kind of updated. And he made an active choice not to cast dudes. You know what I mean? Or someone made an active choice not to cast dudes. And I believe that dudes cast in the other one could've said "No, we don't want to compete with the existing version. We want to let that stand on its own." Like Channing Tatum could've said that.
Aminatou: I know, but you know, I don't know. Hmm. Hmm.
Ann: You don't think Channing Tatum could've said no to this?
Aminatou: I mean I think that he could've said obviously no but again I think that if you're going to look at the movie industry the actors are the smallest pawn in the studio system. This is like when people play roles that I can't get behind like black people who do all sorts of really racist roles or women that do degrading movies. It's like no, that's their job. Not going to tell them not to make money.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: People should not green light those movies.
Ann: But it's also different. It's not like this is -- you know, Channing Tatum is an actor who has been super pigeonholed in only niche independents and hasn't proved that he could carry a blockbuster success.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: You know I actually feel like he probably has his pick of projects at this point in time and it's not like he is a black actor who has a choice of well-paying prominent stereotype-laden role or languishing in envy.
Aminatou: I know, beloved by black women everywhere.
Ann: You know, that's great, but still didn't have to make . . . I'm sorry.
Aminatou: Fine Ann. Fine, fine, fine. No, you're right.
(41:50)
Ann: Channing can still look hot under the bus where I've just thrown him.
Aminatou: You know, I want to clarify a lot of things. I'm not actually attracted to Channing Tatum; I just like the concept of Channing Tatum. Just putting that out there.
Ann: Oh my god, me too. I like what he represents for women objectifying men.
Aminatou: Yes, I'm like so not into it. Are you kidding me?
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: You know, no offense.
Ann: You're an ironic beef-o-sexual.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I think you're an ironic beef-o-sexual as well.
[Music]
(42:48)
Ann: So a listener tweeted us this fantastic example of Shine Theory in the wild. A women's downhill mountain biking pro named Amanda Batty just announced she's going to do all these clinics for women to make them better downhill mountain bikers which is such a great eye for Shine Theory. She's basically training her competition.
Aminatou: Oh my god. First of all this article is at bicycling.com, awesome. Ann, look at what a bad-ass she looks like.
Ann: She's basically on a cliff staring into the clouds because she's cycled so high.
Aminatou: And she's spending $20,000 of her own money to bring more women into her sport. That's nuts.
Ann: Who knew downhill mountain biking was so lucrative? 20K, I mean that's . . .
Aminatou: Listen, all these white people extreme sports are very expensive to do.
Ann: I mean expensive to do but also it must be sort of lucrative to be a professional if she's got 20K.
Aminatou: Listen to this. This article is so short I accidentally happened on the first comment.
Ann: Oh no.
(43:58)
Aminatou: No, it's amazing.
Ann: Okay.
Aminatou: "To call Amanda a mountain biking captures to fail . . ." Wait, what? "Fails to capture so much of who she is." [Laughs] Can't read. "She's dedicated to the sport, the people, racing, being a woman, athlete, and a great person. She doesn't hesitate to point out when something is wrong and even quicker to point out when something is done right." Ugh. Good for you Amanda.
Ann: Love you Amanda Batty. Endorse. Endorse.
Aminatou: Love you. Endorse. I would like to one day try this dangerous form of bicycling. Let's talk about it.
Ann: I would never like to try downhill mountain biking but I'm really happy . . .
Aminatou: It looks so cool!
Ann: Oh my god, are you kidding? I'm afraid to cycle on city streets. I cannot deal with a mountain.
Aminatou: We'll talk about this offline.
Ann: Okay, we will. But anyway props to you Amanda Batty. We love you.
Aminatou: Thanks for joining us on Call Your Girlfriend. You can find us many places online: on Twitter at @callyrgf, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, on iTunes. Feel free to leave us a review if you feel so inclined. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Really look forward to hearing from you. See you on the Internet, boo.
Ann: Bye boo. See you on the Internet.