Queer and Questioning
6/4/21 - On this month's agenda: exploring queer identities with CYG producers Gina Delvac and Jordan Bailey. First up, we talk with queer sex therapist Casey Tanner about questioning your sexuality or gender identity, coming out, and dating when you're first exploring a queer identity. This is a great episode to share with anyone who is excited about a new attraction or label, but scared about being new or taking up too much space. Welcome; there's room for you in our queer family.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Casey Tanner is on instagram @queersextherapy
TRANSCRIPT: QUEER AND QUESTIONING
Jordan: Welcome to call your girlfriend.
Gina: A podcast for long distance besties, everywhere.
Jordan: I'm producer Jordan Bailey.
Gina: And I'm executive producer, Gina Delvac. And on this month’s agenda, Jordan and I have a whole lot of queer content coming your way. We'll be talking about many of the letters associated with the lovely rainbow flag, like the kids, they on TikTok, the alphabet mafia, and today's episode is all about being and questioning.
Jordan: Yes. I talked to sex therapist, Casey Tanner, about some of the emotions and anxieties and just feelings that can come up when you're just discovering your queerness or exploring those waters for the very first time.
[theme song]
Gina: So Jordan, we've been talking about the series for a little while and part of our thinking was it's been awhile since you've had a chance to talk about and touch on queer identities, but also because I think a lot of us have been molding and changing throughout quarantine. I know so many people who've been like flourishing in their queerness as strange time as this has been. And other people have been really constrained in kind of like unfurling a new leaf of their identity.
Jordan: And I don't know about you. Like, I have definitely had some soft reach out from friends who are like, Hey, you're queer and bi. Like, can I talk to you? Do you get, do you get that kind of soft reach out from people? Or have you been experiencing that like, oh shit, like, who am I in relation to my identity moments over this weird time?
Gina: Yeah, definitely a little bit. Like, I definitely have a few friends who have, um, kind of started to explore what might be there for them as far as sexuality goes, you know, kind of for the first time, um, in the last, you know, few months to a year, um, I have friends who have, you know, mostly dated cis men for, for most of their dating life and who are starting to feel a little bit interested in dating other types of people. Um, I have a few friends who have been in sort of like long-term relationships with cis men and are starting to feel like, you know, they didn't get a chance to explore what else could be out there and are feeling a little bit curious about it. Um, so I definitely think it's been a time for a lot of people to just kind of sit with, you know, what they actually want and what they actually desire.
Jordan: Absolutely. And I think so much about a moment in the BiBiBiepisode. I reported a couple of years ago when I was talking to the author, Katie Disabato, who's also a friend and she also identifies as Bi, like I do and mentioned that like, there's nothing wrong with experimenting that especially among queer women. And I think for people who identify as lesbians, there is such a bad rap of people as if they're going to try on a queer identity, like a costume. But in fact, like none of us figures out who we are without trying stuff. And as she emphasized at the time, like the danger or the evil is in misrepresenting yourself and what you're doing, like the fact to like seek out new experience and expand your sense of self, like is part of everyone's queer journey for those of us who are a part of the alphabet mafia.
Jordan: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I know at least for me, like I felt really kind of paralyzed by that sort of, um, by that sort of idea and that fear of like experimenting on somebody or having somebody, you know, feel like I wasn't being authentic or feel like, you know, I was just trying them on and it, it prevented me from dating for a long time. Like I was really stuck in this anxiety of like, oh, I don't actually have enough experience to date, you know, for queer dating. You know, I don't know if I can actually be desirable to queer people because I don't have enough experience. And I just like was really, really afraid. And I got like really stuck in that cycle for a really long time. And the person who I talked to for this week's episode actually really helped me a lot with that. Casey Tanner has an Instagram account @ QueerSexTherapy and a lot of the stuff she posts is sort of about this anxiety and about, you know, the kind of fears that can come up for people when they're just exploring their queerness for the first time. And it was all very affirming and really validating and kind of helped me feel like I wasn't alone in this feeling and really sort of, I feel like gave me permission to explore,
Gina: Oh, I'm so excited to hear it. And I'm so excited for our listeners who maybe have been flirting with new pronouns flirting with new cuties to hear this episode and know that wherever you are on your journey is a great place to be.
[Interview begins]
Jordan: Casey. Thank you for being on Call Your Girlfriend.
Casye: You're so welcome. I'm super excited.
Jordan: Me too. I've been following you on Instagram for a really long time and have been stalking a lot of your posts and they have really been helping me. So I'm like very excited that we get to talk and that I get to sort of talk this stuff out with you. So thanks for being on the show.
Casey: Oh my gosh. I love hearing that.
Jordan: It's seriously been so, so helpful. Um, so before we get started, um, we're doing a, like a month of special CYG pride content for June, as you might expect. Um, and we're kind of looking into some of the different letters that make up the alphabet mafia, alphabet soup, LGBTQIA, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so I just want to just start by asking you how you identify in terms of gender and sexual orientation.
Casey: Yeah. Yeah. So I identify as queer in both realms. So gender queer and queer in terms of my sexuality.
Jordan: Cool. And what pronouns do you like?
Casey: I like she and they interchangeably.
Jordan: Cool. Good to know. All right. Awesome. Um, well, can you just give us sort of an overview of the work that you do? So I found you on Instagram where your handle is Queer Sex Therapist. Um, and I'm wondering if you can tell us, like, what does that mean? What is a sex therapist, do you mostly work with queer clients? Um, yeah, just give us a little bit of, uh, an insight into what you do for work.
Casey: Yeah absolutely. So really small correction it's actually at Queer Sex Therapy. Yes. Easy mistakes to make. Um, and yeah, so I am an Asect certified sex therapist. And what that means is that after I got my master's degree, I also went through several more years of learning specifically about human sexuality. And then on top of that, I did a bunch of training specifically related to working with the LGBTQ+ community. So most of my work, the way that I talk about it is that I work expansively around sex, uh, expanding beyond gender binaries, expanding beyond the boxes we often put ourselves in as it relates to sex. So my work is really is expanding mindsets through education via my Instagram through therapy at my group therapy practice. And then I also work, um, do some consulting work with businesses who are trying to adapt their brands to non-binary ways of thinking about products.
Jordan: I'm curious also, if you could tell us a little bit about sort of your journey into queerness. I know that's probably like a really long and meandering journey, but how you came to identify the way that you do today. And yeah, if you could just give us a little bit of insight into what that's been like for you. I know I'm sure it's a lifelong experience.
Casey: It is, but there are definitely those turning points. The first evidence of my queerness that I have is actually, uh, a home video that I recently found when I was five years old. And my dad says, Hey, Casey, do you have any boyfriends at school? And I say, no, I'm going to marry a girl. And I'm five years old. And that always floors me that I just knew. Yeah, total clarity. And then the way that I describe it after that, which, which queer folks will get, this is like, I forgot, I forgot that I was. Um, and, you know, forgot is sort of a misnomer because it was socialized out of me, right? Like if you can't act straight, then you should act straight. And so that's what I did for many, many years. Um, definitely had those moments growing up in high school where I was like, well, do I want to be her? Or do I want to date her? Right. That sort of common friendship experience. Um, and then, and then it sort of hit me out of nowhere upside the head when I was 22, I was seeing a therapist who at the time, I actually didn't know. Um, but she was queer. So it happened to be a safe space. And maybe part of me just felt that, um, and I remember one day in therapy, I just said to her, I think if I, I think if I don't acknowledge that I'm queer, I might die. Like I might, my mental health might get to a place where I don't know if I can survive and we hadn't talked about it before, but the way that she received that was to sort of be like, oh Casey, yes, I know that about you. I was like, ah, but I also kind of love that she didn't call that out and that she just made this space for me to get there. Um, and then I went through every label in the book, I've called myself a lesbian. I've called myself bisexual. I've called myself gay. And the more I've explored labels, the more I find that they can be helpful. And they're also so imperfect and queer to me feels like the most expansive label, the one that's most, all encompassing, it gives me room to flow. And so that's why I've landed there.
Jordan: Nice. I love that. That's awesome. I also love that your therapist was, um, you know, it sounds like a very affirming experience to have with her. I'm glad that you know, that it worked out that way.
Casey: Yes. And you know, she, wasn't my first therapist, I had many, many poor experiences around, uh, being queer affirming before her, but yes, eventually I was in good hands.
Jordan: Yeah. Good. Um, okay. Well, one of things, one of the reasons why I was really interested in talking with you, because it seems like a lot of the work you do, or at least a lot of what I've seen on Instagram, um, kind of centers around, or not even centers around, but I've just seen a lot of your work about sort of early queerness for lack of a better phrase, or sort of like, you know, a lot of the stuff that comes up for people when they're first stepping into queerness or when they're, um, you know, coming out to themselves for the first time we're experiencing queer dating for the first time. And I feel like there are a lot of really specific anxieties that are associated with that. Um, and so I kind of just wanted to talk about that a little bit. So, um, a lot of these questions are sort of centered around, you know, you know, for people who are sort of dipping their toe in for the first time, or just kind of like, you know, embracing this new label for themselves. So one of the first things I wanted to ask was about. Yeah. Okay. So I'll start by just sort of telling you a little bit about like, you know, my experience. I know for mei, um, you know, I kind of had like a similar experience of like having some really early childhood experiences with feeling like I was queer and feeling like I had crushes on friends and stuff like that, but sort of quote, unquote, forgot it, or just like allowed it to be sort of, you know, pushed aside, um, mostly had boyfriends and dated men and stuff like that. And then, um, in college and beyond found myself like wanting to embrace like my queerness a lot more and feeling more comfortable stepping into it. But for a long time, I found myself in this loop of feeling like, okay, I know I'm queer. I know I'm interested in dating women. And non-binary people dating people who are not cis men, but I have this feeling like I'm not actually quuer enough to date queer people, you know, like feeling like, because I don't have any experience, like, you know, does any do people actually want to date me? You know I, I had this sort of anxiety about people feeling like I was experimenting on them or stuff like that. Um, and I know that's kind of common. Like I've talked to other friends who have been in similar sort of situations. Um, so I'm curious what kind of advice you might have for people who kind of get stuck in that loop?
Casey: Yeah. I've come to call that queer imposter syndrome, um, because it is so common and it's not just for people who are starting to date. I am, you know, known for my queerness and I still struggle with imposter syndrome. So know that first and foremost, you're not alone. Um, and I think a lot of that imposter syndrome comes from the reality that especially women, we're not socialized to pursue, we're not socialized to initiate. And so when we start to try to pursue other women, we have no clue what that looks like. There is no template for that. So sort of layered on top of the imposter syndrome of not being enough. There's also the imposter syndrome of how in the world do I even begin to be a pursuer in my relationships. So there's that piece of it too. Um, but you know, as a sex therapist, one version of queer imposter syndrome, I hear a lot is like, I'm going to be terrible in bed. I have no idea what to do to another woman's body. Um, and what I say to folks is, you know, your first partner will know just as much about your body as you know about theirs, which is absolutely nothing. We are always starting from scratch. And because we know that gender is different from sex assigned at birth, knowing someone is a woman, doesn't actually even tell us anything about what their genitals are. Um, and so we're, we're all starting on a much more similar baseline than we think we are. That's the first thing. The second thing is when I talk to people about sex that they enjoy and quote unquote, good sex. A lot of it is about enthusiasm. And a lot of it is just about feeling that someone wants to be there with them and wants them. And I think that that's actually an edge that people new to queer dating have, right? Like there's anxiety, but there's also so much excitement. And I think that excitement is felt by the partner and can be interpreted as really good passionate sex. And so you already have the tools you need to, to be good at that. Um, so I think really, you know, my response is to normalize, validate, and also say you're underestimating yourself. You're underestimating the tools that you do have already.
Jordan: I love that, but honestly it makes me feel better already.
Casey: Great. I love that. Um, what about, do you think it's necessary to disclose to new partners or to potential partners that you haven't been in a lot of queer relationships or had a lot of queer sex in the past? Like I find myself having a lot of anxiety about having that conversation. Like maybe if she knows this about me, she might not want to date me or she might be less interested. Um, first of all, does that feel like something that's essential to disclose? And second of all, how would you advise, um, having that conversation with, uh, with a new partner with a potential partner?
Casey: Well, I think one way to shed light on that question is to actually zoom out and look at the way that straight folks think about it, because I think there's also a similar anxiety of quote unquote, like I'm a virgin. And do I tell my, the first person I sleep with that I'm a virgin. My cat has entered.
Jordan: This cat has entered the chat.
Casey: She’ll be back probably. Um, so what that's about is purity culture and virginity culture, right? And this social construct that a first time is supposed to be X, Y, or Z. Um, and I think that applies to your question to why is it that we feel we owe somebody the knowledge that it's our first time. It actually has little to do with them at all. And I think it's a, it's a myth that is fueled by purity culture. Now on the other side of the coin, if it makes you less anxious to disclose that upfront, that's a different story. Do the thing that makes you the least anxious. It is not about them. You don't owe them that explanation. Um, and you know, I've had sex with women who tell me ahead of time and I've had sex with women who tell me after. And the reality is that I don't have a right to that information. And it's great either way. So it's about, you don't think about what they need or what they have a right to know it is about what you need.
Jordan: Cool. I love that. I really like the permission to not have to disclose. Cause I think for a lot of people, well, I'll speak for myself. I know for me, like I can get kind of in my head about like, what is she gonna think? Like once you find this out, like, what is she going to think when I tell her this thing?
Casey: It feels like a confession, right?
Jordan: Yeah. It does.
Casey: It feels like you’re admitting something. And I think too, why I love expansive definitions of sex as not just being penetrative sex, is that, that stops drawing a hard line between people who haven't had sex and who have had sex. Right. Like many of us have had some version of sexual experiences that we may not, might not have called sex. Um, and so again, I think that's why we need to sort of throw the concept of virginity out the window because it's such a fluid concept to begin with.
Jordan: Totally. Um, what do you think about, so I have a few friends who don't necessarily identify as queer, like wouldn't call themselves queer. Um, these are the people I'm thinking of are all women who mostly date men. Um, but like have some interest in dating women or some people who are not cis men. Um, but there's a little bit of a fear of like taking up space maybe in a community that they don't feel that they really are a part of. Um, and I'm curious what you would say to that or what kind of advice you might have for people who are like, you know, I kind of want to dip my toe in, I kind of want to like, see if this is for me, I have a sense that it might not be, but I'm still curious, like how is there like an, an ideal way to sort of go about exploring those areas?
Casey: Yeah, no, it's an amazing question. And you're actually describing my best friend to a T. We talk about this a lot. Um, and first and foremost, sexuality exists on a spectrum and you don't have to be 10 out of 10 to be queer, or to have a right to explore that queerness. I think the question you described is a question I get from people who are millennials and older, but gen Z folks aren't really question, right, because they understand the expansiveness of all of this. Um, but what I would say is starting to date or explore your queerness is not the same as taking up space that isn't yours. Um, and here's what I mean by that. It's very possible to know that you maybe haven't experienced some of the suffering that other folks with the label have, whether it's because of other intersecting identities like race or it's because of somebody who, um, has never been attracted to men and has never been in a straight passing relationship. And there is a different kind of marginalization that happens there. And I think it's very possible to hold that and hold space for that while also holding space for the fact that you also deserve to explore and you also deserve to have these experiences. So really when it comes to having conversations about this, read the room, like if you're in a group with folks with a lot more marginalized intersecting identities than you. Yeah. Then I think it makes sense to ask yourself about this space you're taking up. But generally speaking, my hope and dream is that we move to a world where exploring queerness isn't taking up space. It's just something that everyone is allowed to do.
[music]
Jordan: I'm curious what you think about coming out and whether coming out, you know, in the like, you know, capital C capital O sense is necessary, or if that's something that's kind of fading away, it does seem like for maybe for millennials and older, like a lot of people have like a coming out story or like coming out with like, you know, a big step or like a big moment or like an event in some way. And it does feel like for gen Z or for younger millennials, like that’s sort of fading away in a sense. So I'm curious. Um, yeah, I'm just curious on your thoughts about coming out and what that can or should look like and if we should even do it. Yeah,
Casey: No, that's a great question. And I do think that the shift is along those generally generational lines, and I'll never forget the first time I had an adolescent client who I asked about their coming out story and they were like, what are you talking about? So what does that even mean? Oh, got it, great. Really old. But you know, generation is only one part of identity and another intersection of identity is geographic location. And I think that if we're talking about a place like where I live Chicago yeah. The need to come out may be fading away, but in circles where I grew up, which were really evangelical in the south and rural areas, I don't think that coming out is going away anytime soon. So that's one thing. And then I think the other thing is for older millennials and older generations coming out, I think has historically been acquainted with some kind of suffering, right? Like this is going to be something that may be positive in some ways, but also very likely carry some kind of trauma. So I think even if the concept of coming out, doesn't go away all together. My hope is that the suffering that's attached to it well, because I think it's still great to like throw a party and to, you know, quote unquote come out. Um, but we don't have to associate it with suffering that doesn't have to be an intrinsic part of coming out.
Jordan: Did you come out, did you have a coming out moment or experience?
Casey: Well, that's also, I'm so glad you asked that question because I feel like most people will tell you that they've had to come out a thousand times. Because I, I did have a moment where I wrote my dad a letter and came out in this very, um, specific, dramatic way. Um, but then, you know, I come out to my Uber drivers all the time. And so I'm still coming out. I'm coming out when someone asks me if my partner is my sister and I'm like, no, not my sister. Um, but yeah, I did, uh, my most sort of, uh, concrete coming out moment was I wrote my dad a letter, sat him down for lunch and read it to him. We both cried. He told me he loved me no matter what. Um, I certainly had, uh, other, you know, more traumatic versions of that, but that was one that was really healing for me.
Jordan: Yeah. That's great. We talked about this a little bit already, but for people who are primarily, um, who primarily have experienced with dating cis men, for women who have primarily dated cis men, um, we talked about sort of, you know, there's like a script for that. And a lot of times there's a lot of, uh, you know, men are really doing more of the initiation in those types of relationships. Um, and you know, figuring out what it looks like when a man is not involved can bring up a lot of, sort of like teenager type feelings, a lot of, sort of like middle-school awkwardness. Um, and I'm curious how you coach clients through those feelings and how you kind of, um, help people deal with those things. Number one. And also like, if you have any advice for people like moving into queer relationships, like how, like practically to do it, how do you meet people? How do you flirt? Like how do you actually end up dating the people you want to date?
Casey: Yeah, totally, it's insightful that you compare it to junior high because junior high is forces straight people, the developmental stage where they get to learn this stuff and the developmental stage where they get to have their peers mirror back to them, the shared experience of awkwardness, but when we're navigating it and our twenties, thirties, forties, and beyond, we often don't have that peer group to mirror back to us, both the awkwardness and the excitement of what it's like to have all of these different firsts. So the first way I coach people is some permission giving around that awkwardness it's going to happen. It's, don't fight it, accept it, embrace it. It's going to be there. And if you have access to a community of folks going through that same thing, whether it's finding a coming out support group or even, you know, interacting with folks on a page like mine on social media, the more you can have your peers mirror to you that they're in that same developmental stage, the easier it will be to move through that developmental stage. So there's that piece. I think that gender expression is really tied up in what we're talking about because we're not taught to think about femininity and dominance in the same place, which means that we're not taught to think about femininity and initiation in the same place. So I think a lot of this is also helping to expand people's ideas of what it means to be a woman and what it means to be feminine because feminine is powerful and it can very well be dominant and can very well be pursuant. And then when it comes to the concrete, how tos the queer community has always been ahead of its time in terms of virtual community, because we've had to be because of safety and we continue to make most of our connections online. So again, social media spaces, and I am a huge proponent of making friends on dating apps, um, in the cis straight dating world. I have a lot of people either roll their eyes or tell me that I'm delusional, but I have met almost all of my best friends through dating apps, and it's a lot more normalized in the LGBTQ plus community because it's hard to make friends. So, um, I'm a big fan, uh, specifically I love Hinge for, for making friends on dating apps.
Jordan: Cool. I love that. That's a great tip. You recently, maybe a couple of weeks ago or something had a really great post on Instagram about looking queer. Um, and this is something I've talked with, you know, various friends about, I myself, feel like I am like, you know, quote unquote, straight passing. My appearance is quote unquote, straight passing, which even like, what does that even mean? But, um, you know, I just, I feel like there's nothing about my appearance that kind of signals queerness in any obvious way. And I feel like for me, that has contributed to a little bit of queer imposter syndrome. Um, and you just had some really interesting thoughts about looking and what that means and all of that stuff. So I'm just, I would love to hear you kind of talk about that and, and where you've kind of landed on, on what looking means to you.
Casey: Totally. So obviously this is a podcast. People can't see me, but I also look very quote unquote, straight passing. Um, and that's how I looked when I started my, uh, my queer journey as well. And I also felt a lot of queer imposter syndrome because of it not just internally. I had other people in the LGBTQ community comment on how straightened I looked, um, and it was really hurtful. And because of that, I went through all sorts of ways of experimenting with demonstrating my queerness. I chopped off all my hair, I got tattoos, I got different piercings and I love, I love those things. I have no regrets about those things. And parts of those actually did help signal my queerness. Um, but you know, eight years later now that I have a much more internal confidence about who I am, a lot of those things have sort of fallen off my radar as things that are important because I am so self-assured that that's my identity. So I, I love to throw on heels and a sun dress and wear my hair long and put on makeup and embrace being femme and queer at the same time. Now, you know, also important to acknowledge my whiteness, also important to acknowledge that I'm cis, that being cis passing is not a struggle for me. Um, and so my safety isn’t at risk here and for a lot of people, it is, and, and the need to appear a certain way goes far beyond experimenting and far beyond, um, you know, finding joy and is really an intrinsic part of safety, so I think that's important to hold on to. Um, but for me, I've kind of come full circle and I've really, you know, the more I've internalized that I'm and that's real, the less, I felt the need to express that externally, but that's, that's just my journey.
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I also would love to talk a little bit about the various labels that you've had and used over the years. It feels like right now, there are so many different labels to choose from. I'm like, I don't know, am I queer? And my bi, am I pan, like, what are even the differences between all of those things? Um, so I guess I'm curious if you have any advice for people about how to choose a label. I mean, I guess I also am like, I'm not sure if we even have to pick one, if we even really need to pick one, but I guess I kind of find myself, I'm wondering, like, you know, what really is the difference between being queer or bi or pan and like, which one do I choose? I don't know. Do you have any advice on, uh, sort of finding something that, that fits you well?
Casey: Yeah. Well, I think you're totally right that you don't necessarily need any label and it's also okay to have 25 labels. There's no reason that you have to choose one. And I think the difference between some of those labels are really nuanced and you're going to get really different opinions depending on who you ask. So I think about labels, the way that I've come to think about anatomy, which is to say, like, if you're in a room with a group of doctors talking about the clitoris, it's really helpful to say clitoris and for everyone to be on the same page about what that means, right? So that we can talk about it. But at the end of the day, because sex assigned at birth, isn't the same as gender and people should be able to call their bodies what they want. I'll throw the word, clitoris out the window when we can call it, whatever's most affirming to you. And I applied the same thing to labels. It's sometimes helpful to have a shared language so that you can find spaces that fit for you, but at the end of the day, it's really what feels right. And that's, that's really all it comes down to.
Jordan: Yeah. I guess I'm curious if you, um, if you have any insight into, what are those differences between bi and pan and queer? I mean, I know they're very nuanced and I'm just curious, like, um, you know, to you, what, what are the differences between those three specifically?
Casey: Yeah. So starting with bisexual, I think people hear that word and they hear bi and they think too. So they think someone who's attracted to two genders and, um, there has been a reaction in the community to that because we know that there are more than two genders. And I think that that's sort of where the birth of pan came from, because it was the acknowledgement that there's more than two genders that you can be attracted to. However, if you really look at the history of these words, that is actually a myth about bisexuality because the bi and bisexuality actually refers to the fact that you're attracted to people who are the same gender as you and attracted to people who are different gender than you, which still makes space for a whole spectrum of genders. However, you know, some people still have a reaction to that word. I think bisexuality has also been so deeply stigmatized. And if folks who are lesbian, gay and bi, bisexual folks, uh, experienced the most amount of stigma that I think, you know, some folks do try to avoid that word because they want to avoid that stigma. And I think that's really understandable. So for some people pan ends up being a better fit. And then I would put queer as an umbrella over both of those words and as its own entity under the same umbrella, sort of confusing like that. But a lot of bi people interchangeably use queer, same with pan folks. Um, but, uh, also queer can be its own thing where is really a reclamation of this slur that was used against the LGBTQ community to mean weird or different. And a lot of people have embraced that word to say like, yeah, I'm weird, but off because I love that about myself. Right. So there's the nuance there.
Jordan: Cool. We don't have to get into this if you don't want to, but I am curious about your, uh, gender identity and what it means to you to identify as gender queer?
Casey: Yeah. Everyone asks me that because of how straight and says I look, um, and I totally get it. And I think honestly, people ask me that because they're hoping that my answer will give them permission to embrace gender queerness, even though they don't feel like they look super gender queer, so love answering this question. Um, it means all sorts of things. It means that, you know, for me, sometimes I don't shave any of my body hair and rock hairy legs and hairy armpits. And it means that, you know, women as a word sometimes fits for me, but I really hate words like lady and ma'am and miss. Um, it essentially means that I want room to expand when I want to. And I wanted a label that felt like it didn't have to change as I expressed myself differently. Um, so gender means so many different things to people. For me, it just means that, um, I really like to question what I've been taught around what it means to feel like a woman, um, and to allow myself to sort of expand beyond that. But even if I shaved my legs every day and uh, never expressed myself in an androgynous way, I could still label myself gender queer. And that would be totally fine.
Jordan: Yes. I love that. So I have a few friends who are bisexual or queer, um, women who are in relationships with cis men and they're in sort of like long-term monogamous relationships and are not really interested in having an open relationship or like being polyamorous or anything like that. And I know that a lot of times they struggle with like, what does this mean for their queerness and what does this mean, you know, for their queer desire and all that kind of stuff. Um, and I'm curious if you have advice for people who are in, um, that kind of situation where they're in sort of like a long-term monogamous relationship, but still have, you know, this part of them. Well, I mean, they're still, so there's this part that's clear and desires that. So do you have any advice for those kinds of people?
Casey: Totally. Yeah. I mean, I, what we're talking about is one part of bi erasure and bi visibility or pan erasure and pan visibility. Um, that happens again because of compulsive heteronormativity, where we say, if you can act and look straight, then you should let people label you straight. Um, but more and more people are saying, well, that does not feel authentic. And an entire part of me is getting missed in that process. Um, and we've got to remember that, uh, by pan is a label in regards to sexuality. It has nothing to do with behavior. You could never sleep with someone of the same gender for your whole life and still be incredibly gay. So we have to remember that, but I think the best anecdote to that struggle is going back to finding, mirroring by other people who share that label. So, you know, being Bi in a quote unquote straight passing marriage, um, doesn't mean you can't still go to LGBTQ spaces. It doesn't mean you shouldn't seek out friends who are also bi, queer, lesbian, gay, um, find a peer group that mirrors your identities back to you, even when your partner doesn't.
Jordan: Yeah. I love that. Great. Um, well, my last question is, so we've talked a lot about, um, like anxieties that come up around this time for people and sort of, you know, the more challenging aspects of, um, coming into queerness. Um, but I'm curious if you could tell us like a little bit about, I want to hear about queer joy and like what you see happens for your clients when they sort of embrace this. Um, you know, when they sort of embrace this, when they step into queerness, like how do you see it changing people's lives for the better?
Casey: Yeah. I think that before people come out, there's a certain amount of defenses and defensiveness that we have to employ to keep that in. And that's not a judgment and that's not saying anyone's bad, but it happens, right? Like we have defense mechanisms to protect ourselves from realities that are painful to look at. So what happens when you actually look at that in the face and you come out, is those defenses drop. Um, and I don't necessarily mean defensiveness like anger or frustration. I mean, defensiveness, like being afraid to connect fully, being afraid to spend time alone, being afraid to dress in certain ways. And when you face that head on and that defensiveness drops, I find people's worlds, just get so much bigger. Um, their relationships get so much deeper. Um, some people find themselves being kinder, more emotional. Um, when we are trying to contain ourselves, I don't think that we get to pick and choose which parts of ourselves we contain. I think sort of a blanket containment happens. So the reverse is true when we stopp containing that part of ourselves. I think other parts of us that don't even seem to connect to sexuality end up opening up. Um, and I've had people say that their friends, family, partners have reflected back. Wow, you are just such a more wonderful person to be around now that you're yourself. Um, and I think my clients feel that too.
Jordan: Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Um, okay. That's all the questions I have. I guess I'm curious. Um, if there's anything we didn't talk about that you would want to, that you would want to share or, um, any sort of lingering advice you might have for people who are in this sort of like, you know, I'm dipping my toe in for the first time kind of stage anything we didn't go over that you would, that you would share.
Casey: I actually just posted, um, I put up a story on Instagram where I asked older queers to talk about what they would write to their younger selves. And I took all of it and I compiled it into a letter that I just posted. I think that that has been affirming for folks to read. So if that sounds like something that could be healing, I'd point them that way. But if I think about what's in that letter, there were a couple of things that just came up over and over again. One was, you are not broken. One was, I know this is so deeply confusing, but it will make sense. I promise. Um, a lot of people gave themselves advice to leave relationships where they didn't feel authentically seen. Um, and so I think that the main message that older queers are trying to send to their younger selves is like, you're so cool. You're so hot. You've got everything you need to do this. You're not broken. And so just reiterate that to folks who are listening,
Jordan: I love that. Um, is it a long letter? Would you be down to read it for us?
Casey: Not long. I'll read it. Okay. I would love that. Yeah. Here, Dear younger, me, you are not broken. You just haven't heard the word for what you are yet and no, you're not the world's biggest ally and you don't just like that girl's outfit. And you also, aren't a predator. It's confusing. I know, but everything will be okay. And it may not feel like it. But one day you will be able to trust people with this and you will feel less alone. You don't have to apologize, not to people for not being straight enough and not to other people for not being queer enough. Ignore the haters. You are already enough. And someday darling, you will get the love you really deserve. And the haters, they may just come around. There's freedom for you. Freedom from boxes and from labels. And you don't have to choose just one or any for that matter. There's freedom and community and acceptance. And in letting go, your instincts are good. Follow them. You will fall in love because you are capable of falling in love. It will be worth it. And you have nothing to be ashamed of. Don't judge what you've needed to do to survive. Leave that unhappy relationship you're in because life is short and there are so many hot queer people in this world. Stop hiding. You're one of them love your gay as fuck ancestor, you.
Jordan: Oh, just the perfect ending.
Casey: Yeah it really encapsulates a lot of the questions you asked, right?
Jordan: Yes 100% I'm like, this is actually just exactly the thing I needed to hear. This has been so great. Thank you so, so much for doing this and for talking with us, it's been so great to talk to you and I really appreciate you being on the show.
Casey: Yeah, no, thank you for making space for this topic. I so appreciate you.
[interview ends]
Gina: Casey Tanner, you can find her on Instagram @ Queer Sex Therapy. Jordan, I'm so curious because you sort of did get like a mini your own therapy with Casey.
Jordan: I did.
Gina: How has this been for you kind of like reporting this out. Have you had any shifts in your own identity, as you've been thinking through this time, you did mention at the beginning of the episode that you had those anxieties about like, is it okay to be new? How are you feeling right now?
Jordan: Yeah, it definitely did. You know, I feel like for the last couple of years I have identified as queer because it felt vague enough that I didn't have to like kind of decide where I landed and it felt really safe because I was like, I don't really know like what I am or who I'm attracted to or how I want to identify, but I know that it's not, um, heterosexual, and I know that, you know, there's enough space under the umbrella for like whatever it is that I'm feeling. Um, and I think in the last couple of weeks and months in like doing this episode and, and just having conversations with friends and also in having conversations with you, Gina, um, I have kind of, I've kind of realized that I identify as gay and that I'm mostly interested in dating, you know, women and non-binary people. And, you know, my dating life in the last couple of years has mostly looked that way, but I have felt a little bit hesitant to, to claim that label for myself. Um, but I do actually think this conversation with Casey gave me a little bit more permission to lean into what I think is the most, um, authentic label for me. And yeah, now I'm identifying as gay and I'm having a really great time with it and dating has been more fun and it just, it feels good and authentic and I'm, I'm like happy to be. I'm happy to be gay.
Gina: Oh, Jordan I'm so happy for you, I’m grinning over here? I couldn't be more delighted that this is where you are in June of 2021.
Jordan: Yes. I appreciate that.
Gina: Well, dear listeners, good luck on your journeys. Please feel free to share this episode with anyone, you know, regardless of your personal identity, who might just need a little boost, a little support in kind of an evolving and changing on their journey. We're all changing all the time and finding a queer side of yourself can be scary, especially as an adult or especially if you're in a hetero relationship, but it's not world ending. And there's a whole huge community here to receive you and give you hugs now that we can do that again.
Jordan: Yes. Hug all your friends, hug all your people.
Gina: Oh, kiss all your friends on the mouth.
Jordan: We're bypassing hugs. Yes, get consent to kiss. Yeah.
Gina: Yes, get consent to kiss your friends on the mouth.
Jordan: A hundred percent.
Gina: We'll see you on the internet.
Jordan: See you on the internet.