Hard Conversations
5/7/21 - Death, sex, money, family and identity. How do we start and receive the hardest conversations that emerge in our lives? The one-and-only Anna Sale of Death, Sex and Money is here to talk us though it and her new book, Let's Talk About Hard Things.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: HARD CONVERSATIONS
Aminatou: Welcome to call your girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: She’s Ann Friedman.
Ann: She’s Aminatou Sow
Aminatou: Hey hey hey
Ann: Love saying your name does not get old.
Aminatou: Mostly, I love it when we say each other's name, because I am remembering the trollie piece of mail that we once got, about how, um, like someone thought that we were being mean to each other, by not saying each other's names. [laughter] So, so whenever I do it, it's a nod to that or it always makes me laugh.
Ann: Okay. But there's a thing that I, I thought about it that when, when we got that email, but also in general, when I watch like TV with bad dialogue, sometimes this comes up, which is, it's pretty rare that I say my friend's name while in conversation with them, you know, every once in a while I'll be scandalized and say like, Oh, Aminatou or something like that [laughter]
Aminatou: But the full name is so strange.
Ann: It's so strange, but it's also weird because it's like, you know, it's, it's not like I'm sitting down for a formal interview with you frequently and being like, well, that's a good question. I mean, not to, like, I just don't interject my friends' names in conversation that way. And I know that like, that's the intro to our show. We're saying who we are, but like in the flow of the conversation, part of it, it feels profoundly weird to like pause and address by name the person I'm talking to.
Aminatou: Well, honestly, Ann Friedman, I find it really strange that you, um, you know, that that's weird for you because I clearly do that all the time. So yet another thing, another difference we have,
Ann: You know, if anyone ever wondered whether this is a scripted show, Aminatou Sow, this might answer their question.
Aminatou: Remember where we tried to script the show. It was terrible. So here we are back to reality.
Ann: Yeah. I don't know. I like, we've talked about this before, but when we recorded the pilot episode, we had a conversation, which of the style that would become what we just air on the show. And then we took notes on it and then tried to script a better version of that conversation. And then essentially read the dialogue that we had just had back to each other. And it was so stilted and weird, like…
Aminatou: Yeah, we are definitely not good actors. Um, I think that we have learned that from trying to script the show and from reading our audiobook, um, acting is very hard work and you should leave that to professionals.
Ann: Fully. Okay. That's a great segue to the professional that is on today's show audio…
Aminatou: I'm so excited.
Ann: Audio professional, Anna Sale is here. She is the host of the podcast, Death, Sex, and Money, which we love. And her new book, which is out imminently, is called, Let's Talk about Hard Things. And in it, she explores five of the most fraught conversation, topics, death, sex, money, family, and identity.
[theme song]
Aminatou: It's such a good book, Ann. Of course, Anna is a really good writer. Like you, it, it, that is not surprising at all, at all, at all. If you are even passingly familiar with her work. I think that what I am always just so struck by is her ability to, um, to make you like really see yourself in telling someone else's story or in talking to someone else like that is definitely a deft kind of skill that not everyone has. And the entire experience of reading this book was very much like, wow, I'm, I am feeling too seen and I need to put it down.
Ann: Yeah. I felt the same way. And as you will hear in my conversation with Anna, um, you know, you and I are both words, people, we are both people who really like to find the right words to express what we're feeling or like what we think needs to be said. And this book is really, for those of us who are maybe a little bit too obsessed with finding the exact right words. And we talk about that a little bit too. Um, but I think that there are lessons for that in like truly every type of relationship, every walk of life, like not just in conversation, but in, you know, just trying to be like a, like an articulate, fully realized human being. Like, I, I, that she did not write this as a self-help book, but I'll be honest that I can see myself returning to it a bunch in the future, um, for that reason.
Aminatou: What are you, my therapist Ann Friedman, I have to go now. I, I can no longer be having this conversation with you. It is too real.
Ann: File under yet another professional interview in which I turn the interview subject into my therapist. [laughter]
Aminatou: Honestly, if Anna Sale will take me on as her therapy patient, I think my life will turn out okay. So I'm on board with that.
Ann: Okay. Well, um, I hope I hope this interview is like, you know, the beginnings of that beautiful therapy relationship for you.
[Interview begins]
Ann: Anna, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast truly, truly.
Anna: Thanks. I'm so glad to be here.
Ann: I want to start well, first of all, thanks for this book. Um, you know, we both, Aminatou and I have written a lot about, and talk a lot about how we are words people and about how being fully expressed or finding the kind of right conversation or right words, um, is something that for better or worse is very important to us. And I just felt like this book was for people like us, like people who are really obsessed about the right words.
Anna: Yeah. I am also a words person. And I think that, that, um, can give you an illusion that when you feel at sea or don't, don't feel grounded it's because you just haven't landed on the right word. So that's something that I feel like I was thinking a lot about with this book is like, Oh, sometimes it's not that it's just that we haven't named something. Sometimes you're just going through something really hard, um, and to distinguish, figure out ways to distinguish that in conversation, that that was a useful exercise for me writing this book.
Ann: Yeah. I started to maybe think of myself as a linguistic perfectionist after reading your book, not always a positive, um, because you know, you have, you have these short phrases that begin many of your sections that are, I don't know if you see them as sort of like examples of a way in, or maybe talk about those, those phrases and are those the right words TM, or, or how would you characterize them?
Anna: I, I, I think of them as prompts. I think of them as like, let's all of these, the chapters are these big, big, hard things, death, sex, money, family, and identity. And I struggled for a long time while writing it to be like, how am I going to kind of talk and write around the complexity of these big things while also, um, showing you how to start a conversation. And I, I slowly kind of came around from interviewing other people and thinking about the conversations that have been really pivotal in my life is realizing like, Oh, usually the way to start this conversation is pretty simple. It's not, the words are often hard to say something like what I want has changed. That's one of the sentences in the sex chapter, when you need to start a conversation with a partner that you don't want to be with anymore, those words are not complex, but finding the moment and when, and when you're ready to say that sentence is, is really complex. Um, something like, uh, what does money for, a pretty basic sentence. But I think I write about in my first marriage, like did not have a clue how I answered that question and how my ex answered that question. And if we had just sort of figured out a way to kind of like explore together what money meant to us, where we came from with money with our families, like w how we wanted to build our lives in relation to money and stability, like we would have just had, um, more of an understanding, a foundation of understanding, um, in a way of sort of analyzing the trouble we ran into. Um, but we didn't have that conversation cause we never said that simple sentence.
Ann: I mean, that not so simple sentence. Right. I, um, I, I found myself wondering as I read this, why are all these things difficult to discuss? Um, you know, I mean, we sort of take for granted that something as personal as sex, or as painful as grief is going to be tough, but there, there do seem to be some deeper through lines between, um, these topics that, that you pull out in the book. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering about the why?
Anna: I found that really interesting as I was writing. Um, I feel like one of the things I wanted to do was say these five things are all hard, but they are hard in different ways. Um, talking about loss and grief and death and aging and mortality, that is hard, um, because we will never come to a time in a conversation where we will have a fix, you know, um, where we can ease someone's deep grief or comfort ourselves by telling us yes, we will get to be with our children for eternity. We won't. Um, and so that is a reason that talking about death as hard as, cause you always are going to run up against that unsolved ability of it, it's just there. Money I feel like is really hard to talk about for, for quite different reasons. I mean, one is that we don't have a vocabulary for talking about money in American culture because we just don't talk about it outside of just these really broad mythologies. When you do find the courage to get into specificity with either a partner or a close friend or coworker, you're going to come up against difference that you can't explain in a way that it's quite consequential difference when it comes to different resources that are available to each of us. And then family, I feel like it's hard to talk about, um, because there's this built in tension of feeling like you ought to have closeness because you share this origin in this history with this set of people, if you're talking about families of origin, um, but also built into family is this idea that you are as you age, going to grow apart and separate. So, so because we don't just say, this is a part of being a family member, having this difference alongside the sameness. Um, when you feel that tension, it can feel hard and like, it's something you're supposed to fix again, and it's not fixable, it's a function of being in a family,
Ann: You know, hearing you describe that. And also the intractability of so many of these things where like we have to talk about them in fact, because we cannot change them, reminds me of a thing. I think it's in the grief chapter about reorienting yourself from problem solving to experience tending more, or from thinking about it as like, how are we kind of together. Um, and, and I'm, I'm wondering, you know, um, what does that look like? Or what does that sound like moving away from trying to solve the problem in conversation to trying to tend and experience?
Anna: I've been thinking about this a lot, because I think of it as how I want to be oriented in all of my sort of whatever phase we're in pandemic catch-up conversations. Like I don't want to sort of give a report on how I'm doing and hear a report from someone I love or care about, but haven't been in touch with about how they're doing and then just sort of like exchange those things. Instead, I want to sort of figure out how to have a conversation where we're like, truly just like describing the untetheredness and loss and whatever has been going on in our lives. And so I think it means things like say you're talking to somebody who, who has lost someone. It means not ending the conversation with either you're going to get through it or, um, let me know if I can do anything. It means instead saying like, I am so sorry I miss him too. Can I tell you a memory? Is it okay if I share a memory of him with you? And then instead of sort of thinking of it as a one and done, I've done my condolences call. It's like, then you call again in a week and you say like, Hey, how was today? You know, it's, it's kind of, um, thinking about talking about hard things as a process of, of being in it together, instead of again, like doing your due diligence, saying you showed up to solve the problem. And then because you said you're in my heart and, um, you're going to get through this. You're strong that you've done it.
Ann: That you're going to get through it phrase. Um, to me is a real reminder of the fact that even though these are things that are hard to talk about, we clearly have all inherited some scripts for difficult moments or difficult conversations. And, you know, I think the another one that you mentioned is in the book is, um, let me know if you need anything, uh, or these kinds of defaults. Um, I'm wondering if you have advice for kind of sussing out when we are just running a script that might be about problem solving or just saying what you need to say so you can move on and how do we recognize maybe, um, the limits of, of those scripts? So we can say something that feels maybe more personal or more productive or something more aligned with what you were suggesting.
Anna: You and I share coming from families where people probably delivered casseroles to each other when there was like a death…
Ann: [laughter] Deep casserole culture.
Anna: So, so I am not here to like hate on the scripts. Like, I think that, that the scripts have played a really important social function. I think there's a way to, if you find yourself saying something that really maybe is a, is a platitude, but there could be a little bit more that you could share to just allow that in. Like, for example, maybe you hear that somebody lost their parents six months ago and you didn't know it and you feel weird and bad, and you're not sure how to check in. Um, it's like reaching out and saying like, Oh, I want to tell you how sorry I am. And that, that is part of a script. And then saying like, I want to know how you are and I'm sorry, I wasn't there in the moment, but like tell me more about how you're doing. Like, it's, it's kind of like just trying to make it into an exchange, a conversation. Um, and instead of just saying the thing, that's like a hug with words, but not really an exchange.
Ann: I also, I find myself thinking about fear here, you know, fear that it's going to be the wrong word or not enough, particularly when it comes to grief, but definitely also with, with all of these areas, you know, the way these conversations bring up our own deepest, darkest fears and avoiding the conversation is, is kind of avoiding ourselves. I'm wondering if there's a story from like your reporting that sticks out to you about that, the way that ducking the conversation is kind of ducking a truth within ourselves.
Anna: Well, I came up against that a lot when I was kind of waiting into what I wanted to say about identity. Like for months as I was like, figuring out my reporting plan for this chapter, I was like, what does Anna Sale, white woman, mom who lives in Berkeley, like, what do I have to say about this? And part of that was like, God, what if I'm, what if I'm called out for saying the wrong thing? As I'm trying to, as I'm trying to write about kind of like embracing and trying, what if I really screw up? Um, so, so that was like the emotional experience of writing that chapter. And I think the thing that I kept coming back to, I, I met this woman in the East Bay who runs anti-racism trainings and restorative justice trainings. And, and we were talking once and she was describing what she says to groups when she's convening them for kind of going in on these conversations, like if it's a nonprofit or an organization or something. And she says to them at the very beginning, um, except, and expect a lack of closure. And I really love that line. It's creating the expectation that when you're having some of these hard conversations, you are moving out of where you have competency and expertise and comfort, and it's gonna turn up some stuff and that's gonna make you want to sort of get to a place where you can declare the conversation finished. Um, the lesson learned, moving on. Um, but, but actually the whole point of the conversation is to do the churning up and having that lack of closure and accepting that your point of view and your expertise is always going to have limitations based on your experience in the world. So I find that really, you know, sure. There's plenty of room to mess up. That kind of goes into it with the expectation of like, okay, I'm going in with a like learning mindset, a listening mindset, and I'm going to feel some things, and I'm, I'm supposed to be feeling some things because this is supposed to upset my status quo. So I find that a useful sort of, um, place to go back to when I feel doubt. And like, I want to just sort of like pull back from having a conversation. It's like, Nope, I think let's, let's lean in there and see, see what that's about. Why, what am I resisting there?
Ann: Oh yeah. And, you know, power is another thing that comes up for me then right away, that's really present for me, especially in conversations about identity. And, you know, Aminatou and I really tried to write about this in our book, which is the sense that when it comes to divides and identity, not everyone is approaching the conversation with, with the same standing in this kind of broader context that we live in. And I think that one place that that fear comes from is understanding that difference, right. Understanding that power differential. And so, I don't know, I'm wondering how power comes up for you throughout the book. Like, are there, are there other ways in which I don't know, acknowledging a power difference between the people in conversation is pretty critical.
Anna: Yeah. I mean, I think like basically all five chapters could be a version of an analysis power, um, because it shows up all the time. And, and the thing that I want to say about power is like, it's really important to like figure out your way to sort of say like, like there's something operating here that's beyond just you and I and our good intentions or whatever. Like you can acknowledge power and conversation that doesn't make it neutralized, you know, like it's still there, it's still operating alongside it, the conversation, um, that comes up a lot in the, the money chapter. And, um, also the sex chapter. I mean, I think the, one of the, the reason sex can be so hard to talk about is if we're talking specifically about sex, where we're not talking about assault and domination and, and abuse, but in talking about even the consent conversations and figuring out if you want to do something with this person, or if you want to reject the person, like it's a constant power exchange of who wants what from you and what you want from them. And that's what you're trying to talk around. So that's what I would say about how I thought about power in the, in these conversations is it's like, it's there. Um, and it's still gonna be there. And so like, you're sort of like having this meta analysis of the power dynamics and you can say it, but then it's still there.
Ann: And you know, this also makes me think about these sort of unequal, inherently unequal way, that two people come to a conversation, which is to say, what can feel regulatory and productive to one person can feel redundant, obvious or not at all revelatory to the other person. And, you know, in some ways now I'm just asking you questions about like, like basic annoyances of human dynamics and how hard it is to like live in community. But there is kind of a meta thing happening for me in, in when I think about hard conversations in my own life, it's that I'm not done with something yet, but my partner is it's resolved for him. Or my mom thinks that we close the book on this ages ago and it's still eating at me, you know? And I'm wondering about that. Like, you know, the sense that, um, is usually incumbent on one person to be the initiator and also the person who kind of makes the case for the necessity of the conversation.
Anna: Yeah. I thought about that a lot because I mean, the way I write about it is with a hard conversation, like you're it, they start either because someone comes to you and says, I have something that I need to talk to you about. And then you are in the role of like, okay, let me brace myself for whatever reactions this is going to bring up and let me figure out how to listen. Or you're in the position of being the one who's speaking up because something has gone unacknowledged or, um, someone doesn't know something and you're disclosing something. Um, and that is, that is a power dynamic to begin with is like, I'm the information keeper. And I need to, I'm gonna, you know, hand over this potentially a grenade into your hands, but I need, I need to work this out with you. I think that what you're describing is like, yeah, I mean, to be super clear, like a conversation that's hard for me is not going to be hard for everyone. Um, it's very specific on what we get sort of hung up on, um, and need to sort of circle around for me it's money and it's about security and stability. Like, I could talk about that. Like if my husband would talk to me about our budget every day, like it would, I would do it. Oh my God, I would love it. Like, just because it makes me feel, um, not, I just feel really freaked out by money. And, and somehow like talking about it makes me feel like I'm tending to it. And it's like picking the scab of my particular existential fear. My husband is like, Oh my God, we talked about this a week ago. Nothing has changed. We made a plan. Like, why are you bringing this up again? Or a month ago or three months ago? Like, so the reason to have these conversations, even if you're exasperating, the person that you are bringing it up to is it's like, I am feeling like, I feel it need to feel a little bit more known and heard. And I want to do this with you and that your person you're talking to might be like, you know, my husband is like, I need you to know me and hear me that like, we made a plan and that's the way I move through the world. And so we have to like compromise on this, but like, when we have that like quick exchange, we've gotten really fast at it because it's such a pattern. Um, it's just sort of like, okay, this is who I am in this relationship. And I, you know, I'm gonna roll my eyes at myself now because you're calling me out and like, he's going to say, this is who I am in this relationship. So it's not like I demand that he sit down and like, no, have that hard conversation with me again, you know? But it's like, because we have this, like, you know, sort of like practice of talking about money and money angst like, I feel like there's, there's this like deeper foundation to understanding one another, which is like really what you're trying to do when you're having these hard conversations is seeing the person you're talking to, hearing the person you're talking to and feeling more seen and heard yourself.
Ann: I also am hearing you talk about maybe some acceptance that like a conversation can be made easier over time. You know what I mean? The more you get more, you get practiced talking about money with the same person. It becomes less of a hard thing. But one thing I found myself thinking about as I read your book is like the kind of sneak attack nature of some of these topics of not really realizing maybe that a friend who you used to feel very economically in sync with is now a lot richer than you are, and you've never talked about it. Um, but it takes you a long time for the realization to catch up to the fact that the gap has been there for a long time, but it takes you a while to realize that this is a hard conversation that should maybe happen. Have you grown better through your years of having these conversations with people at knowing what some of those signs are that like, Hey, a hard conversation needs to happen about this topic, whatever it might be?
Anna: Hmm. That's interesting. I hope I've gotten a little bit more, uh, ready and able to sort of say like, Oh, I'm noticing a little, this is like a stretch point or a little moment of tension. And you know, I don't know that whenever I notice that I'm immediately like, Oh my gosh, I need to call this friend because our material realities have clearly changed and we need to talk about it, you know? Like, but I think that it's like acknowledging, Oh, this is a way that we are different now when we were the same before. So that's now a part of our relationship. It's like, then when it comes up, what are you going to do when you spend time together? You know? Um, what's the invitation look like when you're inviting someone to travel with you, maybe you say like, I have miles and I want to, I want you to come along with me. It's a way of sort of like indicating that you're acknowledging difference. And then when you're like finally together on the trip and over a glass of wine, you can be like, what's it like right now for you? And for me, it's a lot of like, what that looks like right now is trading details about childcare and childcare expenses and how you made different choices and what partner is carrying, what kind of load at home and in the world of earnings. And you have that conversation when you have the space, but you have an acknowledgement of the like tensions and maybe the little, like moments of landmines when you're planning to get together and try to tend to those instead of ignoring them because they're hungry.
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Ann: I was really interested in your comment near the beginning of the book about how it is not a manifesto arguing for radical honesty. And then also the ways that this comes up. I mean, particularly in the family chapter, I think where you write that sometimes a little bit of fibbing or a little bit of a lighting can help a hard conversation happen, um, in a way that is productive or healthy. And I'm wondering how you find that line because I am currently swallowing some anger with my family over the fact that my sister did not postpone her wedding. And it was like a real rush for everyone. I mean, like I was under a lot of stress to get vaccinated in time to like get on a plane and be in attendance at this family event. And if she had just postponed it, I wouldn't be feeling that way. And then, you know, and I haven't said anything, cause part of me is like, you know what? It all worked out. This is not really, we don't need to have a whole knockdown, come to Jesus conversation about this, like a little bit of a fib. That's like got my shot and I'll be there. And it's fine is okay. And I think that, um, for me, this line between am I ducking a hard conversation or is this just sort of swallowing something that actually isn't that big of a deal? And so I'd love to hear you talk about that. Does a little fibbing go a long way. Um, when is it, when is it counterproductive?
Anna: Yeah, I mean, I think that's really hard. And I think that comes back to like continually checking in and saying like, what's the primary objective right now? Like I quote Hasan Minhaj who was on death, sex and money a few years ago. And he talked about his dad had this line, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be together? And I just love that when you think about family, because sometimes you do really need to say your piece and say like, I'm right here, you were wrong. And sometimes you acknowledge that that comes with the cost that like maybe sometimes isn't appropriate. Um, so it's like, what's the thing that's like weighing on you more. And I think, you know, it's hard with family, like in a wedding and all these things. It's like, that's a hard one because like clearly the whole purpose of the gathering is to center the feelings and experience of your sister. Who's getting married. Right. Um, and, but you're going to notice probably in a year or two years that there's still this sort of like, Ugh, I didn't feel like the experiences of all of us were properly acknowledged. I think that's like a timing question. I don't think you're ducking it. If you didn't send a group email to the family and say, we need to have a zoom about the wedding date that might be interpreted as pretty aggressive.
Ann: We’re Midwestern, Anna, that would be like a nuclear. If I was like, we need to have a straightforward conversation, centering all of us as we discuss this wedding, it would have honestly been like I was threatening to never speak to anyone ever again. And like calling them all kinds of terrible names. Like yeah, direct confrontation is not a thing of my people are good at.
Anna: Yeah. And I relate to that. I come from, from Southern people. So we have our own sort of strange codes and ways of talking. So I think that that's something that like, when is the right time for me to bring this up or do I need to bring this up? Is this just information I've collected about what it's like when I engage with my family and I'm gonna move on. Um, I wish I had an easier answer for you about whether you should or should not have brought it up, but I think it's so much about like, what's the thing that matters more right now to me. And I think that's the thing to think back on. Um, do I need to speak truth to power or do I need to invite in feelings and be accommodating? Um, like I think that that's a, that's like the binary that we're always sort of moving in between that thing about not being a book, um, uh, a manifesto for radical honesty. Like I thought that was like important to say, because I wanted to like make clear that I'm not, I'm not all about just like throwing bombs and relationships. Um, I have something to say and I need you to hear it. Like, that's not what this book is about. This book is about tending to relationships and fortifying relationships and fortifying, you know, even beyond that, like communities and neighborhoods in our social interactions by like acknowledging that these things are sort of just under the surface all the time. Um, Maria Bamford, a comedian who I love, she blurbed the book. And she talked about this line. I think it's from, I should, I don't have it right in front of me. It's from the recovery community, but it's like, it's something like say the hard thing in a nice way. It's this beautiful line about like, when you were talking about a hard thing and a true thing, you can say the true thing, but you also need to take a minute and think, how do I want this to be received? It's like a two-part, it's a two part thing when you're coming up with the words and I think radical honesty can sometimes, um, neglect that second part of like, I need to take a minute to think about how this is going to be received.
Ann: Yeah. There's something about the radical part that implies not super well thought out or like just blurted, um, whatever the reality is.
Anna: Yes, yes. She says, Oh, say what you mean, but don't say it mean, I love that. Isn't that nice?
Ann: Yeah. It's very, it's very sweet. It's actually very like, even a preschooler could understand.
Anna: Absolutely.
Ann: I love that. I want to ask about the limits of conversation and I'm paraphrasing a bit. Um, but you know, you write something to the effect of conversation. Can't change everything, but also we can't really fix or improve or get a true or better version of our relationships without it. I'm wondering how you find the natural limits of words, you know, like when the right words, um, means no words at all.
Anna: Yeah. I mean, I think of this in two different ways. I mean, one, the sort of like origin story for this book for me was I had such a faith in words and my ability to emotionally problem solve with words that when I, when my first marriage ended, I felt like I was hit by a freight train. Because it was such a shock to my sense of myself. Um, as a sort of way of moving through the world. I really thought if we went to enough therapy and if we talked enough and if we read the right books, we would find the words to stay together. And that neglected the fact that like when we were having these hard conversations, the reason they weren't solving anything is because we were at an impasse about what we wanted in our lives. We wanted different things. And we couldn't like come back to that feeling of closeness and teamwork just by like saying again, again and again, we here's, our objective in this conversation is to come back to that because the reality was we didn't want the same things. And so I think it's really important to like acknowledge that that is a true limit of a hard conversation. Like you are not going to necessarily reach a resolution or agreement at the end because you've tried really hard to listen carefully and to be lovingly honest, like sometimes a hard conversation leads you to information that you didn't know beforehand, but that's like, okay, this relationship has run its course. Um, and it's time to, time to move on. Um, I think the other part of the limits of words, it's not even like about whether you can get to agreement or resolution, but sometimes what you're talking about is giving words to the space between you, you know, when you talk about money and I am financially comfortable and I'm interviewing somebody who is not talking about and wanting to hear about their experience is not going to make them financially comfortable at the end. That's not something that is fixed by words. There can be really important information exchange. There can be critical support, you know, offered and, and even like really tactical advice about like how to use money and what I've learned about money, but talking about that is not going to change the material reality for the person I'm talking to. So that is a limit of words. But again, I still think it's worth having that conversation. Like, especially as we move through this strange economy now, like I feel like every major decision I made about how I manage my money or what credit card I'm using for points or which like weird tax thing for childcare I'm using and signing up for at work, all of that stuff I've learned about from conversations with friends, it's the sharing of the experience. So, so there is a utility to it, but it definitely has its limits.
Ann: I love that as your sort of origin story of why you became interested in these kinds of conversations, the story you tell at the beginning of the book about your marriage ending. And I think there's sometimes a perception that people get into certain lines of work because they're already very good at it. And I would argue that you are all are very like an amazing interviewer, but there's a through line running through this book of like I got into this because I wanted to be better at it, or because I want it to be better at using my words this way. Um, and maybe I'm reading into it as someone who wrote a book about friendship, because like I want nothing more than to like be a good friend. Um, there's like an intentionality as opposed to like already, already having reached that expert status. But I'm wondering what the project of the podcast and then also, you know, this book, um, has done for you, like personally.
Anna: The biggest thing. I don't know that it's made me like a much better communicator when I've been in the heat of a like conflict or I still get reactive and defensive first and then I have to work through it. And like, I can see that it's happening now. I can like observe it while it's happening, but it still very much happens. Like my brain simba heat behavior, it gets like activated and I act like a child and then a teenager and then an adult, I think what having these conversations has really done for me and I really, really value it is it has helped me get a little bit more comfortable with ambivalence and gray area as, and not knowing, and really appreciating that like life unfurls in a lot of different ways that is worthy of being sort of curious about and witnessing together without feeling immediately first myself going to the insecure place of like, wait, they're doing it that way? Should I be doing it that way? You know, like, um, so I, I think that that's particularly in this last year when it feels like just so much of our social scaffolding is, has fallen down and is, needs to be rebuilt. And I have a lot of questions about like what I want to see, the future I imagine and the way I can be involved in that building, that future that I imagined. And I, it can be really overwhelming. And, um, to just come back to that idea of like, okay, like I'm in it right now. And there's trade-offs for different choices and, um, I can be happy and sad at the same time. Um, I've learned that from having these kinds of conversations over the years on death, sex and money, just like being able to hold a lot of things at once. Um, instead of immediately going to the like, wait, what's the to-do list, what do I do? What's the takeaway from this conversation? You know what I mean? Um, and I think that that's really, that's been really useful for me and for my particular personality.
Ann: I also relate to that. I think that this is a moment when, I mean, particularly the past year, we have all really been confronted by the fact that not just not knowing what's happening, but like not actually really knowing anyone else's lived reality of this difficult time, you know, um, you know, earlier you were, you were talking about how you want to approach some of these kinds of like coming back to our communities and our people conversations. I'm wondering if you've already had some of those tough conversations that involve like navigating these deep differences in how we've, um, experienced the past year?
Anna: Yeah. Um, it's weird. Something about what you just said, like me tears come to my eyes. Um, cause they're in these like very fleeting interactions and most of them are by phone, uh, which is like intense in this like junior highway. For me, I haven't had this many phone conversations like with people in my life in a long time. One thing that just came to mind is, uh, I was talking to a colleague who, who I don't work with on a day-to-day basis. Um, but I have known for a long time and, you know, we were doing the like quick check-in before we went into the one thing we had to discuss. And we were just comparing notes about both having little kids and how life was working. And I said something about how, for me, like having my walk and talk therapy had been really important. I'm like walking around the block or walking around the neighborhood and have this therapist that I found and how helpful it's been. And the person I was talking to was like, Oh, that's interesting. Maybe I should do that. And then like, you know, a few weeks later I got an email saying like, would you mind like sharing the name of your therapist? And I connected them. And it was like this small little window into like, you know, I don't really have a picture of what is particularly hard for this colleague, but when you just give that little window of how you personally are, like trying to cope and maybe flailing a little bit and just saying like, well, here's what I'm doing. You know? Um, it can create a little thread that somebody, you know, you don't know, it might need to tug on. So that's something that comes to mind. I was going on a neighborhood walk with a friend out here and we were walking and we ran into someone that I didn't know, was a neighbor of hers. And my friend said something like my mom just fell. I'm having to figure out how, how, and when to get home, to help take care of her. And this neighbor just like kind of paused and said, my father just got COVID three weeks ago and he died. Um, and she sort of like cracked her composure cracked. And we stood, you know, on this neighborhood street and both offered our condolences to her and just sort of had this moment and then parted. And it was over, but it was just like, Oh, like we have no idea. You know? Um, it struck me as like 18 months ago, that would have been an interaction where you just, Hey, Hey, you know, maybe you do talk about whatever what's going on in the neighborhood. Um, but because my friend, you know, gave that little window into like, Oh, here's this hard thing with my family that I'm trying to figure out how to do in this world that I don't know how to do this in. And then, you know, it gave, gave the neighbor room to say like, Oh, this is this way my world just completely fell apart. So it's thinking about how to just create those little openings, like to just care for each other.
Ann: Right. Oh, just this image of the three of you on the street. I'm someone who is an extrovert. So I've been caught up in mostly the joy of reopening and not, not the anxiety, but I really don't think that I have spent a lot of time thinking about how close to the surface grief and, um, the really painful experiences experiences of the past year are going to be, even as we are like air quotes in an, in a new phase and, um, yeah. Having the grace to make some space for that. Anna, thank you. I feel like I should have an ending question here and I just don’t. [laughter]
Anna: You know, what we could do, we could accept and expect a lack of closure. You know, that's what this is.
Ann: I don't even know I'm in an emotional place after you saying that. So, yeah. Great. Let's practice. Let's practice. Not having clear closure. I love this. I'm grateful to you for all of your work and for this book in particular, which I, um, you know, like a true, a good student and words person will be returning to as a manual many times. I'm sure
Anna: I love that. I love that. It's helpful for even a words person, that's really that's, that's, that's good.
Ann: Thank you so much for being here. I'm really happy that, um, we've had this chance to talk about your book and I'm excited for all of our listeners to go read it for them.
Anna: Thank you, Ann. It's a real honor to be on your show. And I, I really liked talking to you about this stuff. Like I could talk to you about hard things all the time. Thank you.
[Interview ends]
Aminatou: Man. Death, sex, money, family, and Identity, hard things to talk about. I love this.
Ann: I know the right words T M put it on my tombstone. Um, anyway, we'll link to the book in the show notes. You should definitely buy and read Let's talk about hard things. And you know, at the very least you can have a meta conversation with the people in your life who also read it about talking about hard things. Maybe that is one step to actually talking about them. Um, but yeah, Anna is the best. This book is great. I'm so happy that we both read it.
Aminatou: Wow. See you on the therapy couch booboo.
Ann: Bye.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.