Healing Ourselves with Friends (and Books)
5/21/21 - You know that friend you can get real with about therapy, shedding the hard parts of your childhood, and how to take the next steps in your life? Ashley C. Ford is that and more to so many, in how shares of herself online, in her podcasts, and now her new memoir, Somebody's Daughter.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Somebody's Daughter by Ashley C. Ford
TRANSCRIPT: HEALING OURSELVES WITH FRIENDS (AND BOOKS)
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow,
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman.
Ann: Hi Aminatou Sow. What's happening over there?
Aminatou: Not much. And not much. We are just chugging along, chugging along into Q2. It's wild.
Ann: Now that it's Q2 I'm like Q4 is basically tomorrow. Like it is, it is really, yeah. It's happening.
Aminatou: You know it, you know it. Well I'm excited about today's, uh, episode because it's a phone a friend with our pal Ashley C. Ford.
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: Right. One of our favorite writers, Ashley has, um, a memoir that's out that, um, we've all been waiting for, for a really, really long time, but I'm glad that she took her time writing it because it's really powerful. And I feel it's such a good, um, it just like embodies all of the different strands of, um, things that she's talked about for so long. And, you know, just like a, I love like a showcase of someone's like both like their strength and all of the emotional stuff that they bring to the table. And also just like gorgeous writing. Um, which if you follow Ashley, you already know that she's like a wonderful writer. So this was just like a great experience all around.
[theme song]
Ann: And also Ashley is someone who like really does it all like that, that a truly modern public intellectual is how I think of her. And so getting to read something about how she sort of built that intellectual framework that I have really come to rely on her for is incredible. Like, like a memoir is such a gift in that sense when you're already a fan of someone's work.
Aminatou: I know. And you're right. That she is like truly a Renaissance woman, you know, has all the things like multiple podcasts, like video interview series, a book now, like her social media is great. You know, there's people who you're, I will only speak for myself. I'm like, there are people who like, I will be happy if I never hear a word from them ever again in my lifetime. And then, and then I have the opposite experience. So there are people where I was like, I hope that you have like 10,000 more of these inside of you because every time they speak, it's like it resonates. And it's important. And I feel that way about Ashley.
Ann: Ah, I can't wait to listen.
[Interview begins]
Aminatou: Hi Ashley.
Ashley: Hi Amina.
Aminatou: Ah, can you believe it? We're here. We're here.
Ashley: I'm so glad to be here with you right now. You are such a bright spot in my day. So this is, this is so good for me. I'm happy to be talking with you.
Aminatou: I’m not going to ask you how you're doing, because we've already lied to each other about that earlier today. Well, let's talk about the book Somebody's Daughter, Ashley, you write about growing up in Fort Wayne, Indiana, where you will be the governor very soon. And you write about, you know, growing up with a father who was incarcerated and a mother who is, I think it's fair to say, like very overburdened and you just write it a lot in very great detail about how like tumultuous your, your childhood was. And I think that, so everyone who that I've talked to who has read the book has just like really praised your ability to be able to look back and see the people who raised you as their own, like three dimensional humans, which in some ways is the hardest thing about being, uh, about being someone's kid is that you will forever be, um, parent ciphers and not real humans to you. You know? And I wonder like how much of that, um, with something that was revealed to you and how much of it were you understanding as you were growing up?
Ashley: Um...This is such, I'm trying to think of like the right way to like talk about this, right? Because it's, um, I don't want to give the impression that I was some kind of like preternaturally gifted, emotional, like child who was able to realize exactly what was going on in the heads and lives of other people, because that's absolutely not. Um, but I think what is true about children in general is that, um, when we are younger, we are just closer to ourselves. We have a better sense of who we are and who we want to be. Um, and I think we are also a little more sensitive to the world in general and our, like our truest connection to the world, like how we are connected to the world and other people. Um, I think kids have a lot of natural inclinations that we, um, that we either practice out of them or beat out of them or shame out of them. And then they spend the back half of their lives trying to get back to it and I know that when I was a kid, what I noticed was that adults lied a lot and were not very good liars, um, especially about their feelings. A lot of adults around me who thought they were really good at hiding their feelings were absolutely not. They just, they just weren't, they just weren't good at it. And so what I was stuck with as a kid was looking at an adult and hearing what they were telling me or seeing this like this anger, you know what I mean, directed at me. And at the same time, seeing them obviously on the verge of tears, like obviously about to cry, obviously very sad and being really weirded out by the fact that I was supposed to ignore that part. I was not supposed to acknowledge it. I was not supposed to point it out. I was not supposed to say anything or have anything to say about the, what seemed to me to be very obvious differences between how certain adults presented their emotions and what they actually looked like was going on. Um, with my mom in particular, you know, there are so many points in the book and also in my life where I look back and I go, huh? Like she, it was so obvious to me in the moment that she would do something or say something and she wanted to take it back. She knew it wasn't right. She wanted to say, sorry. And then there would be this, like something there, like this decision. And it's like, I would watch it happen in her face, where there would suddenly be this resolve. And it was like, no, I'm not going to, like, we were in a power struggle, but I did not feel like I wanted power over my mother or like I wanted, you know, an abundance of power in a situation. I mostly just wanted information. I wanted to know what was going on. I wanted to feel like somebody was being straight with me and that was not happening in a lot of cases. So I think I wanted to write about that in this book. I wanted to write about what it's like to be a child who knows you're being lied to and has to go along with the lie in order to stay safe, because that is most children, I think, forced to live under circumstances or in circumstances that they understand are not exactly correct, but they also have been made to understand that if they acknowledge that they notice it... they've put themselves in a bad place and they've called something down on their heads, by the authority figures around them. And I don't think enough adults recognize that I don't think enough adults recognize that the children know what's going on. And I wanted to write this book this way, because I wanted people to know that, like we know we, we knew, then we know now you may have convinced yourself as an adult, that the things that happened to you as a child don't affect you anymore, they don't matter anymore. Or, you know, you were able to make a life in spite of it. So why can't everybody else or something like that. And it's like, well, you know, that's probably because you're still living by the rules of a child. You're still not acknowledging what you see. And unfortunately that will keep you, uh, or it has the opportunity, to keep you pretty safe in a really particular society and environment. But on the inside, you're probably not doing really well. So I don't want you to do that to yourself and God, God, God forbid, I don't want you to do that to your children.
Aminatou: Children always know. They always know, but so much, but your status as a child is predicated on adults thinking that you don't know. And there is the problem. It's so funny, I'm talking to you about this because, um, you know, like you and I talked so much about therapy and we talk so much about just sloughing off shame and all, you know, like we have all of the right words and I was still so struck when I was reading your book, being confronted with my own, um, the things that I don't like to think about and really being confronted with the fact that there is also a way to really intellectualize your trauma. And there is a way to intellectualize. You are the assaults of your life basically. And I remember just like sitting down and, and thinking, I was like, oh man, this is every cliche they tell you about like a good book. It's just a vessel for healing [laughter] and you know, and so much honesty. And there is also the experience of reading someone that, you know, and hearing them tell you in their own words, what is happening with them? That is just, it, it has to change you because I know that for me, it's like at a hundred percent did, you know? And, and when I hear people like talk so much about your writing, Ashley, like, that's what they say. You know, that it is a vessel for healing and it's a vessel for reflection because you're so honest. And you really choose to say the quiet thing out loud, or you say the thing that like most people are ashamed to say. And, um, and I wonder like how much, how much of a choice that was for you and how much it is like, this is just who I am. Like, I cannot keep this to myself because it really does change people. And I, and I, and I know that, you know, this, that like, um, the book will also change people and that this book will also, it will heal people and it will give like a new degree of understanding and a degree of just, um, like a really understanding what forgiveness is for yourself and for other people. But I am just so curious. I'm like, how much do you know and how much is it? You're just like, this is, I just have to do this.
Ashley: I think there is a choice to be who I am. Absolutely. I had a theory that when you are the most of yourself, like when you are fully yourself around people that you give them permission to be more of themselves, and it's not because you told them to be themselves, it's not because you said being yourself is a good idea, and you should do that because it'll all work out. It's like, it's not that it's not, it's not a directive. I don't really like to direct people, um, at all. Um, but I do believe in learning from example and teaching by example, if that's what you want to do, and if I would want to teach anybody anything, like when people are like, if you, if there was one thing you could get everybody on the same page about what would it be? For me it would be that the most important thing you can do, not the only important thing you can do, but the most important thing you can do is know who you are and knowing who you are means, knowing what you want. It means knowing where you've been. It means having some idea of where you would like to go. It means knowing what you don't like, it means knowing what pisses you off, what makes you happy? Like understanding when your emotions are communicating with you, um, where those come from and what they're trying to communicate, like all of those things. I think if you can be really good at that, or if you can work on that for a long time, um, then you can, you will be good to other people. That's what I believe. And I think that if we could all be better to each other, um, we would have a better quality of life for all people and not just some people. So when I write about myself in these ways, part of it is absolutely because I don't really know how else to write about myself, right? Like, I don't know how else to do it. I don't know how to hide better. I've never been good at hiding. I've tried, uh, but I'm not good at it. And I'm not a good pretender and I'm not good at trying to be what I'm not. And so being myself is, is not, you know, it, it is a choice in that. Like, I guess I could try to do it differently. Um, and I don't, but it's also, I also like this, it's a reclamation a bit, like it is, it's a reclamation. I spent a really long time thinking some of the most beautiful, most useful, strongest parts of me were not just, we're not just bad, but we're like, we're like signs that like I did not deserve love. I did not deserve care. I did not deserve friendship. I didn't deserve all kinds of things. And then you find out at some point, or I found out that I did deserve those things, but the problem was, people were telling me that that was true about me. People were telling me you're lovable, you're likable, you're all this, you know, you're this stuff. And in my head, you know, I was still going, wow, these people are, have really been fooled by some aspect of my personality that I can't exactly pinpoint right now. So I'm really scared that I have, because I don't know what's fooling them that it's gonna go away or it's gonna slide away. And then suddenly I will be standing here myself and they will be looking at me like, oh my God, we thought you were something different. We thought you were someone different. I'll be so embarrassed and so ashamed. And I'll feel like such a fraud. And I'll feel like I should have spoken up sooner. I should have told these people that they don't like me. I should have done all this stuff. And I'm like, wow, that is, that's so sad that I've thought of myself that way. But I still think of myself that way. Sometimes that's so sad and I would never want that for another person. Not in a million years. Would I want that for another person? And so the more I do, the more I write in my own voice as myself, the more I share the things that people think to themselves, why I wouldn't share that, but you know, I'm glad she did because now I know I'm not alone. I'm like, that's okay. That's okay. I'm glad, you know, you're not alone too. I'm glad because I write these things to prove this, this idea, this theory, that I'm not alone, that none of us are alone. That we're all having very similar experiences, even as we have our individual lives put together by our every day in our environment and our community. But somehow we're still all having very similar emotional experiences. And it's a shame that so many people, myself once included, think they're alone in those experiences and in their emotions around them. So yeah, part of it is like, this is just who I am, but the bigger part of it is I choose to be who I am. I choose to be who I am every day, even when it doesn't match up with what someone else expects me to be. Because when I do something that people don't expect me to do, there's one person out there. Maybe who's like, I didn't expect that from her, but that's what I would have done. That's what I want to do. And I'm really glad that I'm not alone in that.
[ad]
Aminatou: It's like a profound time. I think the loneliness for so many people, and it's not like, I think it's exacerbated by the pandemic, but I don't know that we can lay every single, um, societal ill at the feet of the pandemic anymore. But I just, you know, it's, it's so remarkable to me, um, to hear so many of us say that we feel lonely or that we feel alone, you know, at various points. And, and that point that you make about accepting for ourselves, um, things that we would never accept for someone else is...I feel like that's splitting me in half right now because so many of us are that way where we have so much compassion and understanding for the person that is not us, but to, to really internalize that and to bring that back, you know, to, to who we are and to say like, okay, I'm a person who also deserves good things and who deserves to be heard and who deserves to be a full person that, that proves to be much harder.
Ashley: You know, what's wild, Amina, that is absolutely true. And weirdly the opposite is also true. There were always places where I had more compassion for other people than I had for myself, but there were also places where, because I had no compassion for myself in that realm, I also had no compassion for other people who found themselves in that situation or in those situations. Um, I like, it never occurred to me. Like, you know, then you have certain things that come out of your trauma that are like will actually, now this is just a useful skill, but yes, actually now this is just a useful skill. [laughter]
Aminatou: Hate to say it, but yes. [laughter]
Ashley: Hate to say it, but actually now this is just a useful skill and there were things that I was that I'm really good at. There are some things that I'm really good at because of, um, my traumatic upbringing or because of like a trauma response that now I think of as a skill. But I realized that all the power in that skill comes from having no compassion for myself in that place. Like, oh yeah, I am really good now at not grabbing things out of the refrigerator and dropping them. Like, I'm really good at being less clumsy, but it's not because I'm like, oh, I've worked on it. And I've told myself like, Hey, this is a problem, but we'll work on it together. It's like, no, it's because I berated myself into not being a clumsy person. I made it so that every time I dropped something, every time I messed something up, I heard the same thing in my head. Like my mom or my grandma would say to me, which is like, you don't pay attention. You are lazy. If you cared more, you would have done it right. The first time, if you, you know, like, and I just had that in my head all the time, you just weren't thinking, right? Because in my house, there was no such thing as mistakes. There were only things that you did wrong. If something went wrong on purpose, if you did something wrong. And even if you, even, if you say like I did, like, obviously you didn't intend to spill the milk, but would you have spilled the milk if you cared enough to pay so much attention that you made sure the cap was on tight before you pulled it out of the refrigerator, right? There's always a way to make it your fault. There's always a way that, like, to give up the reality that things just happen and turn it into the delusion that you have a level of control over the universe that you can't possibly have. And I did that to myself in different spaces for a long time. And you know, what happened then my husband moved in, but he wasn't my husband at the time, but he was my boyfriend. He moved in and I found myself like, and he is a clumsy person. He's six two, and lanky. And he's one of those people who got really tall, really fast, never kind of like glue into like his long limbs. Like, he's just kinda like noodles. And so he's a little clumsy and like he trips over things and he stubs his toe and he spills things or he breaks things, you know? Like it's just, it's, it's reality. Like it just happens. And it's not because he doesn't care. Like I'm looking at this person and I'm like, it's not because you don't care. It's not because you want it to break that thing just because I can blame you for it doesn't mean I have to, but that took a minute. It took a minute of me being like, like I found myself thinking about him. The only reason this wine glass got broken is because he doesn't care enough about my things. He doesn't care enough about the money that we bring in, in order to have these things. He's so used to, we have completely different backgrounds, right? He's so used to things like this. He's so used to there being wine glasses in a house that he's not even as concerned as I would be about whether or not it got broken. He just, he can't care as much as I do. And it took me a while, like a long while to realize that I wasn't thinking about him in that situation, because nothing about him and who he is, would indicate that that was the truth. That was just the script I had learned to keep myself from doing things that I considered irreversible mistakes. I thought that I could hate myself into doing better. And then I, myself trying to, at least in my head, trying to hate my partner into doing better. And I was like, oh my God, that's not who I want to be to him. Right. Like it was wild. It was like, that's not who I want to be to him. Oh my God. That's not who I want to be to me. And I'm only going to be able to be better to him in this situation, if I can learn some compassion for me in these situations.
Aminatou: I know. But also like, even hearing you say that, I was like, oh, this is why we have to talk about mental health so much, because I grew up in the house where also, if you did something wrong, it's because you didn't care. And now I know, I was like, no, that was just ADHD. You know, if I was like, oh yeah, it's, um, there's actually a problem. That's like very easily fixable or not easily, but you know what I mean? It's like, oh, like so many things that you talk up to just like personality defects are mental illness. And that is, that has been the like eye popping, just like brain exploding, like truth of my adult life is realizing that and filtering all of my childhood through that has been both like very healing for the inner child and also just, wow, how much grief would we save ourselves if we just really understood mental illness?
Ashley: That's the hard part, Amina, like that's the stuff that people don't tell you about mental health healing. That's also the stuff people don't tell you about class transition, you know, is that like in both things you bump up against your former situation, like you're going to bump up against it, this new you, this, this, this happy, wealthy, healed person, whatever, like that person is going to bump up against the past and past practices and past beliefs and all that stuff all the time. Like, and it's going to make you mad because it feels like an unnecessary barrier. I absolutely, like when I think about things like I have to work on this part of me, or I have to work on like thinking of myself this way. There are times when I sit back and I am so angry because the only thing I can think is I just needed a better start. I just needed a better, kinder start. And then this, all of this stuff just wouldn't be in my way...
Aminatou: I know right, but how do you fight that bitterness though, really? Because I, this is a conversation I've been having with a lot of, um, like of women our age, is just this funny ending of the very basic and simple ways that you were failed as a child, whether it was like not being diagnosed with something that was really a diagnosable, not being understood, not being made safe, not being, you know, like all of the ways, which, you know, I think is a, is an experience that is pretty universal, but I wonder like how do you fight the feeling bitter about that and then the building, um, on it instead of, of letting it like completely destroy you or make you, you know, like regress?
Ashley: Right now, the practices that really helped me with that. Um, or at least the primary practice, I guess that really helps me with that is that, um, I you know, I have a real commitment to reality now, like a real commitment. Um, I try to think about things, um, in terms of, uh, like, cause you, in order to get away from the bitterness or the anger sometimes, like I let myself explore that anger, but I try not to live there. Uh, I, I have to figure out what I need to process that emotion at that time to not get stuck in the middle of it. And what helps, what I have found, what helps me specifically is to A) remember that I am not in that time anymore. Yes. It affects me. That is reality. It is reality that it still affects me. It is also reality that I am not there anymore. I also think about, okay, what bugs me the most about that time? What upsets me the most? It's what I was taught about myself. It was how I was taught to see myself. Um, and in some cases, the world around me, so then I got to sit there and I got to think about, okay, how much of that do I still hold onto? How much of that is still showing up in my life that I believe the world is that way? Or I believe that I am that way when I figure out how those things are showing up, I've got choices. I can deal with them or I can accept them... A lot of it, I choose to just accept. It's like, look, this is a, this is a thing about you. It might always be a thing about you, but you're not hurting yourself. You're not hurting anybody else with it. So let's just accept that that's us right now. And if it becomes a problem, we will recognize it and we will address it. And then there were things that I was like, no, you got to deal with that right now. [laughter]
Aminatou: I hate those things. [laughter]
Ashley: Like you can’t be out here, like in the world, thinking of yourself this way or having this thing, I realized, um, that I was, uh, I was not a person who was, um, Hmm. I'm trying to think of the way to say this. I am a very, I can be a very performative person in that. I like performance, like actual performance. Like I'm a theater kid, you know what I mean? Like that is absolutely true and I love that part of me. That's a very playful, um, silly part of me that is very easy for me to tap into and that I have a lot of fun when I do tap into. Right. So I know that that's a part of me. I also know that it's a part of me that I don't like to be watched. I don't necessarily like, um, I don't like hyper-focused, I worry about being watched because I worry that as people are watching me or looking at me, what they're looking for, um, is something to critique me on. Like they're not looking at me because they enjoy my performance or because they enjoy hearing me speak or whatever. They're looking at me because they're looking for something wrong with me. And obviously there's something wrong with me. So how do I like do my little thing and then get them to look the other way really quickly. Right. And I've wondered, like, what is that from? What is that from? You know, what it, like, why, why do I have such a hard time sometimes being in the center or being at the center? And I find myself in situations where I'm put there, but I'm so, so bad at like putting myself there. And I realized that it was a couple of things, you know, I grew up in a home where A) I was regularly told I was too friendly and that I liked people way too much. Um, I was also told that I couldn't tell that people didn't like me and that, um, you know, like a friend would invite me over to their house or something like that. And my mom and really what it was is that my mom wouldn't want me to go, because she would want me to like, stay actually and like to hang out. But my mom couldn't tell me that, like, she was not a person who could tell me that she liked my company or enjoyed my company or wanted me around or missed me. Like, she was just never going to say things like that. So instead she told me that my friends didn't really want me to come over and that, I just couldn't tell that they didn't want me to come over. I know, I know. I know it's very sad. Right? Like looking back, it's so sad. I'm also like that performative thing about me, you know, trying to do little dances or stuff that are, get my mom to look at me or my grandma and the thing they used to do, they would go, we see you, we see you, you know, and then they would turn away. And like, that was their way of being like, yeah, you're trying to get attention and that's the worst way to get my attention. So we see you and now you are dismissed. Right. Um, and so now I have this really messed up relationship with the fact that I'm a visible person. Um, and I don't mind technically being a visible person, but there are times when I had, there was this excruciating anxiety with coms that comes with the idea of being like watched or being like seen, um, because I was mocked for it. And also because I was told that, like, I don't know how to tell if somebody likes me. And so when I have the feeling in my gut of like, oh, I like this person and I want to be friends. And I think they like me too. Like, it's sort of forever warped into this like response. That's like, yeah, sure. Maybe, but you should hang back and let them take the lead so that you don't overwhelm them. And so you don't make them uncomfortable because you don't know how to tell if somebody wants you around....
Aminatou: This is why you’re so hard to get, this is how you play hard to get. [laughter]
Ashley: This is so funny to me because you were one of the first people like that, not one of the first, but you were one of the only people who has ever actually said that to me. Um, like I know people have felt that way and like, it's, it's come up in like little ways or like, I'll bring it up and then they'll be like, yes, but you are the only person who has ever been like, you play hard to get, um, you play hard to get. And in my mind I was like no, because it's like, it's hard to get. So I was like such a game.
Aminatou: No, I really don't mean it as a game, you know? And so much of it honestly comes from like a place of recognizing where, um, the, all of the ways in which you make yourself scarce are the ways that people want you and appreciate you and love you the most, you know, it's own like negative feedback loop for you, because all you think is like, oh, I just have to make myself a little bit smaller and then I will take up less space. And the response from the people who love you is just no. I mean, this isn’t, this isn't, this is going to be the heart of your darkness. It's like everything that you are, every way in which you try to minimize or pull back are the ways that people want you to amplify and the way, like the places that we will pursue you. So I say play hard to get, but I mean that in the most like, um, like, least, you know, like, uh, attention getting way or whatever. And, you know, even this conversation is just, um, when you said earlier about how, because like not having compassion for yourself also means that you have no compassion for people, all, something that I was really confronted with when I was reading your book, it felt like when I was growing up, I had no compassion for people who were attention seeking because in my house that was like such a no-no, you know? And it was clearly like, something was wrong with you and zoom out like 30 something years later and to say, oh, like the correct question is what's so wrong about wanting attention and what is so, um, what's so hard for this person that they need it. Like, that's the question that I can answer, but I remember just being like, oh, this is like a, really a place where my heart is just very hard because it's like a place of deep shame for me. So I just cannot confront it in anybody else. And, and yeah, I don't know. I was good writing is good writing, man. I'm telling you. [laughter] Like damn, you know.
Ashley: I felt the same way growing up. I felt the same way, Amina. Like anytime somebody was like very obviously attention seeking to me, which obviously I learned to pick up on and be really sensitive to and other people, because it was in me.
Aminatou: Yeah, I acted like it was a criminal activity and you're like, what's so wrong about a younger person wanting to be adored and wanting to be loved. Like what's actually wrong with nothing. Right. And why do we seek to just like push it down so much? And man, I mean like, actually I could talk to you for like 20,000 more hours. [laughter] You know, like I, we, we didn't even get into so much of the detail about your father. And the details about your grandmother and your mother, all of these, you know, like calculations and survival tactics that you had to make as a child. And, you know, I also, I also just feel that it's such a like wonderful and amazing lucky fluke, but maybe like, uh, the ordained blessing of the universe that your father wrote you all those beautiful letters when he was incarcerated. You know?
Ashley: And it was his choice. Right.
Aminatou: It was his choice but I think so much about like, wow, like how differently would your life have been? And I'm like, we'll never know because that's the road not traveled, but there is really something about like, um, you know, like he also used the power of his words to, to, to make a choice for himself. And that is just, it's so wild. How much of life is just people randomly choosing the things that they do in the time that they do it?
Ashley Right. It's so wild to me, how much control we think we can have over that. That's, it's a while to be like the older, I get the more up to say guys, guys, what are we doing? What are we doing? Can you really control that? Also? Why are you trying to control? Is that going to help you? Is anything about controlling that going to feel good to you? And quite often, it's not.
Aminatou: After the last year that we've had, I for one will never try to control anything in my life because I have just seen how insane making and ridiculous it is. Like, it's, it's been like the most humbling, the most humbling year in humanity, as far as I'm concerned, like, oh, you guys have your little plants welcome, welcome. [laughter] Reading this book I was really left with like a, you know what you said earlier where you were like, it sucks that you did not have the start that you wanted in life, but also a real belief in like, you should let people surprise you and you should surprise yourself because you never know. You never know what happens when you make the choices that you make.
Ashley: I think it's kind of the point. I think it's kind of the point. Like people, I don't have any, I don't have any theories, answers, or really questions about why we're here. I'm going to be perfectly honest, I don't think it's important. I don't think that's really important. It's like, we're, that's what it is. We're here. Um, but I, when I think about reasons like, or one of the things happen that I'm like, this might be the point, um, when people surprise me and when I surprise myself, those are the moments when I'm like, this might be the point, this, this might be the point to stay curious about what is possible. Like instead of trying to nail down an answer, that might be the point, at least for me. Um, and so far it's, it's, it's working out.
Aminatou: I'll take it, I'll take it. Stay curious. Before we go, I want to just like shout out a very important person in both of our lives who is Arianne Young, who is a woman who keeps us both on track. We share an amazing assistant and I don't know about you, but I don't know that anyone has heard me cry more or seen me be more of a disaster in my life than her and has been more compassionate and discreet and kind. And I just like, it really takes a village. So I feel lucky that we are connected in that way.
Ashley: I literally had a call with her, I think last week where I said, where I, she was like a lot's going on, you know, and it's all good stuff. And I was like, let me ask you something Arianne, does any of this make sense to you? Because you see I'm a mess. Like nobody else sees how much of a mess, especially, especially professionally, nobody sees how much of a mess I am. And yes, things are going really well. How, Arianne, how does this make sense? And she's like laughing and she's like, you are not a mess. And I'm like, I don't know, like, I'm sitting here, I'm thinking about it. And I like, I don't know what I would do without her. Like, there's just, I have no, you know what? It just, if I didn't have her, there would just be a lot more people who are like, never worked with Ashley C. Ford. It's a, it's just a disappointment down that road. It's just disappointing.
Aminatou: She is truly the glue that keeps the family together. Like what a human, I love her so much. Ashley, I am wishing you Godspeed on book tour. Oprah is so lucky that she gets to breathe the same oxygen as you. [laughter] I'm excited for people to just like pick up this book, um, you know, with whatever their own preconceived notion is, and to sit down and to really find a place of just like understanding and healing and, and letting go of letting go of things that have just been really hard. And I just want to say, thank you. Like you do this all the time. You do it in small ways and you do it in big ways, but it's very generous to share of yourself.
Ashley: Thank you, Amina, the podcast has been such a safe and beautiful place for me for so long. Your friendship is invaluable. And being able to have this conversation with you today is I'm not kidding you probably going to buoy through the rest of the week. So thank you.
[interview ends]
Aminatou: Ashley C. Ford! Somebody's Daughter is out on June one, at wherever you buy books.
Ann: I'll see you on the internet.
Aminatou: I will see you on the internet.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.