Burnout
3/5/21 - Getting real about recognizing burnout, how it's different from similar feelings like depression, and how ambition means more than working constantly.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
Transcript for Burnout
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hi, Ann Friedman!
Ann: Hi, Aminatou Sow. How's your bed?
Aminatou: Wow. Wow. I told you that in confidence.
[laughter]
Ann: I feel like we have talked to several times on this show about podcasting from various positions of comfort. I'm just going to say, like I am, I am like a thin line away from podcasting, from the bathtub. If the sound quality were better, it would all be over, you know
Aminatou: I took all of my calls from bad today and two of them were zooms, where I had to strategically make sure that it looked like I was sitting at a table. Like I, I angled it so that it did not look like I was in bed. Like you could not see the, like you couldn't see the converter, you couldn't see the like, the backboard, like anything. I was like, this could be anybody background in my house. But then later I had to call a friend and I was like, you know, this is a friend that I can call and it's OK that it's in the middle of the day and I'm under the covers. And when I called her, she was also under a blanket and we were both like, wow, this is where we're at 3:00 p.m. on a weekday. Here’s where we’re at.
Ann: I'm going to be honest that I have spent the vast majority of today in bed working. I got up because my podcasting equipment does not work very well given my outlet placement in the bedroom. But if, if the outlet were in the right place, I would also still be in bed. That's all I have to say.
Aminatou: I'm going to send you an extension cord. We are going to fix this.
Ann: You know, it's a too few outlets in the room problem, like, I don't know. [laughter] Oh, anyway
Aminatou: What are we talking about today?
Ann: Oh, wow. We're talking about burnout. Burnout, burned out. Past tense. Are we burned out? Are we burning out? Is everything burnout in a pandemic? How do you tell what's burnout or depression? Is it all burnout, depression and pandemic? I have a lot of questions.
[theme song]
Aminatou: Wow. Well, first of all, burnout is such a good word, because even before, like the first time I heard it, I knew exactly what it meant, you know?
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: That's, that's my feeling about burnout. But I realized I don't know anything about where the like, the term comes from.
Ann: I, listen it was, I did some research for this episode. But I also have to tell you that the metaphor that I kind of have long preferred is like hitting the wall. I don't know if you remember a million years ago when I was a magazine editor and I was 100 percent burned out and I was talking to you on the phone and I distinctly remember saying to you, I can see the wall. I haven't hit it. I can just see it, you know, like I know it's there and I'm barreling toward it. And, you know, spoiler like I had already very much hit the wall, like I could see it because it was right in front of my nose and I was in contact with it.
Aminatou: Different metaphor, but I think the reason that one is also so vivid and I think I, too, have hit the wall and I think I feel slightly differently about it, even though, you know, the end product is the same. It's like you don't want to hit a wall, you don't want to burnout or whatever. But I think that when I think of hitting the wall, it's always when, I feel that I'm just, like running completely aimlessly towards something that I'm not sure what it is. It's like I'm running away from something, I'm running towards something. And then you completely lose control of your, like, speed or pace or whatever. And then it turns out that the something is a wall and then you just smack into it. So that's how there's a certain kind of project that does that to me. And I was like, I don't miss that at all.
Ann: I fully respect that. And it's helping me articulate more about why that metaphor feels appropriate to me, because I think I am most likely to recognize that I am burned out or hitting the wall when I am like actively like trying to get somewhere or like I have a thing that, like I want to be doing or want to be doing better or want to be doing air quotes here, Right. And I am like, for various like obvious structural reasons, not doing it up to my own standard. And I think the wall is like me trying desperately to like get there and feeling like something's in my way that is not me, that it's like bigger than me. And I'm just like, trying to charge through it and I can't charge through it. Like that is, that's, that's where I come from. And burnout feels more like what you described in the sense of like, God, there's a lot of stuff happening. And it's like, it's almost like, like standing in a field of like, ash and embers where I'm like, well, like everything is suddenly disappeared around me. Like I, there's too much like I'm distracted. Like, I don't know. It's a different kind of feeling. I don't know why it's important to articulate this. I guess it's like, because it's a term that's used... kind of casually and it really means a lot of different things to a lot of different people having a lot of different experiences.
Aminatou: It's interesting to me that we have a vocabulary for this kind of like really intense emotional exhaustion, whether it's about work or life. And yet we deploy it very casually. You know, it's just like, OK, I have a definition for that. I'm burned out. But it doesn't mean, you know, that's acknowledging it, like even begins to scratch the surface of how you're feeling. And I think that that's why I always find these terms so jarring, like, oh, there's a precise word for this feeling that I have, you know, besides depression, because I'm a depressive person. So sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: But truly, but truly, there is a difference even when the symptoms are the same and can because depression for me at least, it's very much you know, I'm like it's like having a cold. I'm like, I got to ride the wave and the cold will pass eventually. And it's a state of being. And burnout is very I'm like, this has been happening gradually. It has not been feeling good gradually. And, you know, and just like, you know, the pile of ashes that you describe, I'm like, yeah, it starts as like a beautiful candle. And then by the end of it, all we're left with is ashes.
And there is something about that, even when it happens gradually that feels very differently to me than when I'm depressed.
Ann: Yeah, OK, so I did a Google I'm going to hit you with, like the technical definition or roots of the term burnout. It was, it was coined in the seventies, naturally by a psychologist named Herbert Freudenberger. And in specific, he used it to describe the consequences of stress in and among people who are in like helping professions. Doctors, nurses, people who sacrifice them for others is, people who sacrifice themselves for others is the, is the distinction. And these people would often get burned out, exhausted, listless, unable to cope. So obviously now we talk about this, you know, as it applies to people in all kinds of professions, all kinds of jobs, doing all kinds of work and rightfully so. But, yeah, it really, it started as is the specific thing for like caregiving professions, helping professions, that like ask a lot of the individuals in those jobs.
Aminatou: I'm already feeling like ahh. It's too real. It's just too real thinking about it, because I think that in the pandemic, you know, everyone is feeling some level of all those things you just described. You know, it's like, yeah, like I, I am burned out by the pandemic. I am burned out by some aspects of my professional life. And, you know, not that it's funny, but I'm just like, wow, by the time that you start to recognize the burnout, you're already there, you know. The minute that you start putting the pieces together, it's very clear that you're, you are already in a state that is like, OK, you know, like all of the alarm bells should be ringing now.
Ann: Yeah. And it's also really clear to me when I think about that definition is the root of this, that what is required to be in a profession like, you know, being an E.R. doctor or whatever is a certain amount of self-sacrifice of kind of saying, like, OK, like this job is like the most important thing. I'm really going to sideline everything that's happening with me personally. That's happening with my own health and body. And I'm really just going to like be here. And it's, it's really striking to me how that, that is an expectation that lots and lots and lots of employers that are not hospitals have of people, you know, to quote my best pal, Aminatou Sow, it's PR not the E.R., even though-- [laughter]
Aminatou: We don’t save lives here, we don’t save lives here…
Ann: Even though that's kind of like the way a lot of people are expected to show up. And, you know, this idea that self-sacrifice is inherent to work. Also really makes me think a lot about the way that, like, for example, black women, for example, people with chronic illness, for example, like other members of marginalized communities, are expected to very deliberately sacrifice or sublimate parts of themselves in order to just show up to work and exist in that environment. And I think that, like it's like, wow, you know, I know I see why this started with helping professions and this idea of self sacrifice gone totally awry. But it's also very easy to see this is an everyone problem now.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean, like I remember a period where, like what was one hundred percent suffering from burnout and had to get professional help for it. And a couple of things like from that era really stand out to me. This thing that you're saying about helping professions is so woah, because like whatever the pamphlet was that they like, they give you at the, like the burnout hospital.
Ann: Did it have a sad wikihow illustration on it?
Aminatou: It was, it was definitely like a regular hospital, but I was there for, you know, like sad burnout. But it was something like 40 percent or more of doctors, like say that they experienced burnout, which I thought was hilarious, you know. Like hilarious, like sad because I was like, wow, I'm here at the hospital to deal with this and you were telling me that this is a thing that my doctor is also probably experiencing. This is not good for, this is not a net positive for society. But I think like a thing that I remember so much from that time too, was that crystal clear realization that burnout is in reaction to prolonged, like stress. Right. It's like just, if you have, like, chronic job stress or you are in a prolonged, like, stressful work situation, it cannot end well. And, and I think that, that that is something that I have really taken to heart. Because I'm thinking about so many times in my 20s or, you know, even now when you start, you start working somewhere or you're working on something and you're like, it's hard. But the beginning of every job is supposed to be hard and you're just supposed to, like, toil in this hard place. And I have really had to, like, have a mind shift from that. And it's like, if something looks like you are toiling and it is just hard. It's not a brave thing to think about, you know, toiling is going to get you to this like, glorious other side. Like probably what is going to happen in this toiling is that you are going to become exhausted. You are going to become cynical. You are going to feel like you cannot do your job or no longer want to do it. And you have burnt out now, my friend, and it's so tough to think about because employment is so precarious. So whenever I think of burnout, I'm like, who are the people that are so blessed and privileged that they don't have to have burnout, you know? But the truth is that no one should be exposed to the kind of stress that makes you feel this way in general. So it's a, it's a tough line to navigate.
Ann: Yeah. I mean, it's also hard too because as I was reading up like the, like Mayo Clinic page about this, I love the Mayo Clinic like website. That is my, my WMD.
Aminatou: [laughter]
Ann: But it is also kind of my WMD, if you know what I mean. And, yeah, like the symptoms being the exhaustion you just described, but also this idea of not finding joy and in fact, actively finding frustration in the work and then, like, starting to numb out about it because like for me, I'm like, look like there have been times of my work life when I have been extremely busy and stressed and, like, working really hard. But I have still managed to feel like, oh, there's value here or I'm still engaged or I'm not like shutting down that way. I actually think about like, ah, you know, deadline stress moments in writing the book is like a perfect example of this. Where I'm like, OK, this is so hard, this is so hard and I want it to be over. And also like, I'm still really motivated here or I'm still like finding value in, in this work. And I think like that feeling of alienation from, from the work and that like needing to numb out and just kind of like keep running. Like the roadrunner has gone over the cliff and is still running, but the cliff is gone like that feels like a real, I don't know, a helpful distinction for me when I'm like, what's the difference between I'm engaged and I'm working hard toward a goal that I care about versus like I am burned out and this is not sustainable.
Aminatou: Well, you know, the thing that I love about research and data is that it helps you just ground like some of this reality. Right. So I was looking up this Gallup report about employee burnout from two thousand eighteen, twenty-eighteen, yes, definitely 2018 and like…
Ann: The before times.
Aminatou: The before times, but they were like there are five main causes of burnout and I like I love a quantifiable thing because it makes me feel like it's real. But it also makes me feel like, OK, if we know what's going on, maybe some of this is preventable or maybe I can change some of my life around this. But anyway, the number one first cause of burnout is unreasonable time pressure. So people who just say that they don't have enough time to do their work. So, you know, like paramedics, firefighters or the office worker who has, you know, like deadlines that are completely unreasonable. And I can, I was like, this is coming into stark relief for me. The next risk factor is lack of communication and support from a manager. And the, the stat from my Gallup is like employees who feel strongly supported by their manager are 70 percent less likely to experience burnout on a regular basis. I was like, excuse me. The next risk factor which you will love, Ann, is lack of role clarity.
Ann: Ahh [laughter]
Aminatou: So if you just don't know what you're supposed to be doing when expectations are just like moving targets, right? I'm like God, like, like the amount of jobs that are just like cycling through my head right now are wild. The next one is unmanageable workload, which I like. This one was when I was reading, I was like, this is really tricky because I think we all think that we can do more than we can. And also all of capitalism is literally upheld by the fake belief that everyone can always do more, you know. So no one is ever realistic about what is a manageable load. Like anytime, anytime I meet anyone who works hard and like, yeah, that was really manageable. I'm like, you're already doing seventy five percent less. But I was like, it was nice to know that, you know, when you start feeling overwhelmed by your workload, it's not that you're not doing enough. It's probably that the workload is overwhelming. And then the last, like cause of employee burnout, which I was like, I really identify with this is unfair treatment.
Ann: mmhmm
Aminatou: So, so it says employees who feel they are treated unfairly at work are two point three times more likely to experience a high level of burnout. Unfair treatment may include such things as favoritism, unfair compensation and mistreatment from a coworker. And seeing this just like a list, I'm like, thank you Gallup 2018 report. Seeing it, I was like, you know, it's one thing to be like, ok, I feel tired or I feel exhausted or I don't like my job or I'm feeling cynical. But when you actually see what the causes are, if you can identify that you were experiencing one or two or three or like worse, all five of them, then, you know, then I'm like, we know what we're talking about here. This is wild.
Ann: Yeah. And there's also this kind of meta narrative that comes in at this point, right. Which is that, I'm lucky to have a job at all. Like, I think that is a feeling that I've had at various points. I'm lucky to have a job like this at all. I am, I've got it better than other people I know, which is to say, like, I'm aware that people are working in even worse conditions than me or even just like on an immediate level, like, you know, people on my team of coworkers have like young kids, they're parenting. And I don't have kids or someone else is dealing with an illness that I'm not dealing with, like that kind of thing of like, OK, like, you know, in the relative universe of my work life, I shouldn't be like I really don't have an excuse, right. Like, if they're doing it, like, OK, and they're, they're managing to show up, like, why shouldn't I be able to write? Like there's this real sense of, like, comparison that I think creeps in over me. Sometimes that is not healthy either or sustainable either. And it's like one of the, I think it is one of these lies that... I don't know. It's like if the work setup is not working for someone who is a caregiver or someone who, you know, has to have a flexible schedule because of, like, you know, an illness or some other personal constraint, it's not working for anyone, right.
Aminatou: Right, right.
Ann: Like, I like those are those are things that are like not. Yeah, it's the comparison thing there is just a distraction.
Aminatou: Right. I'm like, if it's not working for my coworker, who is also a parent, it's not going to work for anyone else in this workplace. And that's what's so frustrating about how, you know, capitalism just like lies to all of us, because you are supposed to put on a brave face and everyone is just supposed to, like, do more and produce more. And it's very rare, actually, that colleagues are really honest with each other about what they're like, what the burdens of the workplace are. And they're like real structural reasons for that. It's also so daunting when you think about the fact, like if you think about burnout as something that is. It's reversible, right, like you can like this is a situation that can change. I'm still stuck on the thing that you said earlier, you know, about all like being in a position where you just feel lucky to have a job at all.
Ann: mmhmm
Aminatou: And I'm like, if you feel that way, then the the kind of the remedies that you have to reverse, you know, or even like prevent burnout, feel like they're so limited to you because you only have, like, such little power to affect change in your entire workplace, right. And, and it feels really daunting. It's like you are the one thing that's like expendable here. And so I don't know, like I spend a lot of time thinking about, how do I prevent this and also what can I do to reverse that? Right. And some things can be very temporary. Like you can go on a vacation, maybe you go away for a week or two weeks or whatever, and you come back. But then the situation is still there. And you are you know, now you're like a week behind on emails and stuff, like deal with your stress or you can do things like, I don't know, you know, like your self-care or eating right or exercising and sleeping well and, you know, trying to do all the things. But again, that does not take away from the fact that you are in a high stress environment.
Ann: Yeah. You can't self-care yourself out of capitalism like it doesn't work.
Aminatou: Yeah. You just can't. And it, it's both frightening and really disheartening and also just a reality of anyone who has to work, who is a human has to contend with.
[music]
[Ad]
Ann: So what, so what now? Now that we recognize all of us has burned out, now what?
Aminatou: I mean, I don't know, I'm like, I'm about to hang up on you because [laughter] I am contending with, contending with my own hopelessness right now. You know, I, I just wish that we treated burnout with the same kind of resources and seriousness that we, you know, allegedly treat depression and all kinds of mental health problems with. Which in America, like does not bode well because there's, like barely anything like, you know, the market will do for you if you're depressed. But in my ideal world, you know, these are the resources that are available to you. It's like you work somewhere and you're burnt out or you're burned out from your family care responsibilities. There is some sort of like trained counselor or a support or assistance that you can get. And, and it's something that is taken so seriously that everyone around you is working in concert to change the stressful environment that you're in. But that sounds like, I don't know, socialist Europe to me, and I'm not even sure that that happens there.
Ann: Yeah, I know. And I really hesitate to talk about, like, solutions that feel like, you know, kind of recalibrating how you feel about work or your personal choices, because I understand that this is a systemic issue. And at the same time, like, we're not going to snap our fingers and reform the way that, like, the professional world works. Right. Like, we can't just, like, do that overnight. And so, like, at the end of the day, like, some of it is about like or at least I think has to be about in a short term band-aid sense of like how are we listening to and supporting ourselves and like the people in our community? I mean, like this is one area where I've been really, really grateful for being able to talk about my professional life with people who are explicitly friends. Like who care about me as a human, no matter what my job title is, who are not bound up in like whether and how I'm doing the work of my day to day job. Who can sort of hold up a mirror to me and say, like, wow, like this is what I am seeing happen and this is what I'm hearing from you and like kind of write me a permission slip to just say, like not even like maybe you need a vacation, but maybe it's OK to say no to that thing or hey, I know you're really trying hard to make this happen, but does it have to happen right now? Like, is this something that can wait six months or a year? I know you really want to do this. You know, those kinds of checks... I have found so, so valuable. And again, I just want to stress I know that's not like this big picture solution, but like sometimes the short term answer is to care less and kind of do the bare minimum. You know, I think a lot about Tiffany Dufu, who we had on the show years ago at this point, who wrote this book called Drop the Ball, which is I mean, it's like right there in the title, like grant yourself permission to just like be not one hundred percent at certain expectations, whether they're personal or professional, in order to preserve yourself for the long term.
Aminatou: I mean, I agree with that a lot. You know, I think about you and me, people who chose to like leave office, work to work for ourselves and for me at least a huge part of that was because of burnout in the office workplace, right. And so I was like, great. Like, I'm just going to be responsible for myself. I'll be responsible for my overhead. I can control the things I want to control. Came with its own set of stress. But working for myself from home is 100 percent a coping strategy for, for like, a burnout from a different part of my career. And, and I was really naive in believing that, you know, the burnout would not be an issue moving forward because I was like, OK, I've controlled who I work with, how I work, what I work on. And it turns out that, you know, it's like it's always around the corner if you're not vigilant about every single area of your life. And that has been, that has been a huge adjustment for me.
Ann: Yeah. In some ways, self employment is a lot better, but in other ways it's like, you know, the calls from the bad manager are coming from inside the house, you know.
Aminatou: [laughter] Right. Your manager is bad. You are your manager. Welcome.
Ann: Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah and and I think that's why I mentioned that thing about like friends as an accountability system and as like a very loving, supportive check on this for me. Because, you know, whereas you can't always just shift the expectations of yourself when you work, you know, for someone else, it is something that like, you know, I have a little bit more flexibility to do and you have a little bit more flexibility to do. And I really don't take that for granted. Honestly, I feel grateful for that. Every, every decision that we get to make for us, I feel really good about.
Aminatou: Oh I feel, I feel very good about that and it's also, you know, it's also, I also just feel good in general about burnout is something that we are talking about more and more. And also that, you know, like you and I at least are lucky to be in spaces where we can be open about it, because I think that going, going through it is already such a painful experience. And if you did not know that it was an occupational phenomenon that affects a lot of people, it would be really hard. I used an occupational phenomenon because that's how it's classified, by the way. They’re like it's not a disease, [laughter] but it's definitely an occupational phenomenon that the positive impacts the health status of people around the world. I'm like, if it's good enough for the WHO, who am I to think that I am not, you know, that I'm like not going through it right now. So it's like sometimes I'm so cynical about, you know, like big, like conceptualized, like syndromes or whatever. And in this case, I'm like, no, no, this is actually very helpful. And again, it helps you to deal with the work-ism and like workaholism that so many people have. And to just say, well, you're trying your best and it's not working. It's not because you're not a good worker. It's because what you are trying to do is, it's not the best use of your mental resources and it is depleting. So hello. Welcome. People have it all around the world.
Ann: So where does ambition fit into all of this?
Aminatou: Well, that's a really, that's a good question. I, I find I’ve just been going back and forth a lot. You know about what? Like really drilling down for myself. What ambition means, because I think that there was a point in my life where I really confused, working a lot and working all the time with ambition. You know, I was like, OK, if I'm if I'm working, then I'm ambitious. And I was like, that's not true. That's actually not true at all. And you know me like we are dictionary people. So I had to, like, go back to the dictionary definition of ambition and all it says a strong desire to do or achieve something, typically requiring determination and hard work. I'm like determination and hard work does not mean work all of the time, which is how I had really internalized that. And it is obviously true that even when burnout is just starting, any desire I have to do the work that I, I used to be really excited about or, you know. Like any eagerness I had or enterprise or like determination to do that work just goes out the window. And so I try to really look at, you know, a marker of how I'm feeling about my ambition and really measure that against how is my environment helping or not helping with that, because I think that it's usually a good barometer for, actually here all the places that you need to recalibrate what's going on.
Ann: I find that definition really helpful, too, because, you know, not to be circular about it, but one of my ambitions is not to burn out, you know what I mean? [laughter]
Aminatou: Like, oh, I agree. I agreed. I'm like, put that on the board.
Ann: Yeah. I mean, I, I do think that something that has been at the forefront of what, you know, whatever, if I don't actually physically have a list of ambitions, but if I were to write one down, one of them would be about playing a long game. Like having interests and relationships and work that like, can evolve and grow and deepen over time. And I, I actually do think that in that sense, not burning out is crucial to my ambitions. You know, I mean, I think by the same token, some periods of working really, really hard and really pushing myself are part of that, but definitely not 24/7, because that's not a long game. That's like a hamster wheel short game. And that is really, you know, when I think about the people who I really admire, whether they’re people who are really great at building community or living their values or like making creative work, that really, really meaningfully affects the way I view the world. Almost all those people have a kind of longer term strategy. And, you know, particularly like the activist types I know we've interviewed a bunch of them on this show are really good at saying, like, you know, I focus in on what can I do with the resources and skills that I have now and then, you know, and then how can I let that exist in community with others? And, you know, I've been thinking a lot about how that philosophy applies not just to activism, but to work and to like, you know, kind of fostering the deep and ongoing relationships that I want in my life. And that feels really good to me when I talk about that as ambition, as opposed to saying, you know, like I want to be published in this specific place, or I want to sell X number of books, or I want X number of people to listen to our podcast, or whatever. I don't know, whatever traditional maybe definitions of ambitions I might have had at one point or another.
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the thing also about, you know, like when you were saying earlier, comparing your work output to your coworkers, like in a in an office space and how that's that's a losing game because everyone is already you know, everyone is suffering is I think about that a lot with ambition, honestly, and success. I was like, why? Why are you trying to replicate something that somebody else is doing when you don't have all of the necessary information to even know how that's going for them--
Ann: Yeah or why they're doing it?
Aminatou: Yeah, right. Yeah. I just, I like, I think that I was really blessed with the personality of being skeptical, like as young as I was to just be eh. Like, like, I know that my parents are saying that this is a good marker of success or good things, but they're not really explaining to me why that matters and because they can't give me a good explanation, then I don't believe in that anymore... I think that a healthy dose of skepticism towards like public markers of success is really important because everyone wants to tell you about things that are working. No one tells you about the things that are not working…
Ann: --Or what they lost to get there.
Aminatou: Yeah, right. The price that they're paying in order to achieve, you know, like this public, a vision of whatever. And I have found that that has been probably like the best thing about adult life for me is looking around and being like our guy, like no one knows what they're doing. But more importantly, life is hard for everyone. But very few people talk about what's hard. And when I'm, when I'm going through my you know, like I'm like, I don't feel good about this or I'm feeling really stretched thin or whatever. One of the one image that, like, occurs to me over and over and over again is I think of, I think of my life as like a candle next to a box of matches.
Ann: mmhmm
Aminatou: And I always ask myself, I'm like, do you want to be the candle or do you want to be the matches? Everything is going to end no matter what. Like both the candle and the matches will burn out. And I'm like, the matchbook looks like it's big and there is a lot here. But, you know, the lifespan of a match is like five seconds max. The candle will burn for longer. But, you know, also that's going to end. But I always tell myself I'm like, do you want to be the candle that you want to be the matches? And I'm like, I would like to be the candle. I would like for it to be lit successfully, lit many times. And, you know, eventually it is going to melt into nothing. And that's fine. But I like my, one of my ambitions is to not it's not like flame out at like, right out the gate. So I am, I am trying to hang in there and it's really tough when you feel challenged in every way. And, you know, and it's already tough like having a lot of mental health problems. And then on top of that, you're like, oh yeah, like occupational phenomenon like also adds to that. No, thank you. It’s, it is really hard to have the staying power and to achieve all the things you want to achieve. But you're not going to do that if you're not around for long enough, you know.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: So it's, uh, it's about pacing yourself.
Ann: I do think for me, it takes a lot of reflection and also a real grounding in myself to make the kinds of decisions that support that right. Like, you know, like when I hear you say that metaphor about the candle in the match, I'm like, yes, but in the day to day, sometimes that looks like doing things that I really don't want to do. Like, you know, saying no, saying no to something that might, that might seem like in the short term a good opportunity because, but even though I know I don't have the capacity. Right. Like something like that is like a perfect example of like, yeah, it all sounds well and good to say that this is what I want, but in reality, setting the kinds of boundaries that are required for this is like not always easy. You know, people really expect a kind of give it one hundred and ten percent. You're always on, you're always responsive. And I think especially for people who are socialized to want people to like them, socialized to really bend over backwards to accommodate, like I'm talking about people who are like socialized as women. By and large. It can be really difficult to say like, no, actually what this gets is 70 percent right now and that's OK. Or actually, no, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be doing this thing that is optional that everyone else is doing. I'm not going to be pushed into that. I'm going to, you know, set a boundary. And I think that I find myself very hungry for examples of people who do have some degree of control about how they are using their energy, that are modeling like maybe ways that other businesses and the humans that run them and the humans that work for them can, can do it. I mean, I'm, I'm thinking about Tuesday Bassen, who runs a very, very small clothing company. I think she has three or so employees, made the decision to close her online shop, stop posting on Instagram, like not do any production work for the whole month of October and the first week of November last year, which was a super intense time. And she was like, no, we just need a break. We're all burnt out. We've really put a lot into this business during a pandemic and we're just going to hard stop. And there was really open communication with her, the people who, you know, are part of her community and the people who buy her clothes and support her. And then they came back like, you know, and I think that there is something to about that of saying like setting an expectation of like this is a needed break and we'll be back. That is like that we can all do, even if we are not the proprietors of a small clothing company.
Aminatou: Yeah. And I mean, I understand that it's not without risk. You know, there is, there are reasons why people do not feel confident to say that. And it's why I appreciate it even more that people are communicating about this kind of stuff. Because, you know, I'm like I for one, would like to both think and reward people who are really vulnerable and honest about their burnout or about what their capacity is and about the fact that they're, you know, they're just trying to get through the day like everyone else.
Ann: Yeah, yeah. Like a good auto-responder. Like, I really appreciate when people set expectations about, like, listen, I'm only on email once a day. Like, I have received those messages when I've emailed people. And I'm like, great, good to know, you know.
Aminatou: Good to know. Good communication and boundaries. We love to see it. But, you know, the truth is that good communication and boundaries are not always rewarded. So I again, I'm like, I, I get it. And I am hungry for more models of this. I am hungry for more people to, to be really explicit about their boundaries, because I think that one of the mantras of the show is really just ask for what you want and you know, and let's see what happens. And that's the world I want to live in. I was like, everyone, tell me what you want and then let's try to figure out how we do this, because I, for one, do not want, you know, like eighty hours of week at work. I was like I was not built for that. I don't enjoy it. I don't like it. I want sanity in my life. And here is how everyone who works with me and everyone who loves me can help me achieve that.
Ann: Mmhmm. Well, what do you want right now and how can I help you achieve it?
Aminatou: Oh, my God. This, this is a beautiful question. Well, right now, this instant, I need a chocolate digestive, but they're in the kitchen, so I will get that for myself. [laughter] But I know…
Ann: I cannot telepathically move that for you from across the country, working on it.
Aminatou: I know, but I will say this about like, one of the things I appreciate about our working relationship, Ann, is that we have very different styles of, you know, how we work, like what we want and what we need. But it has never been, it's never been hard to say this is what I want or this is what I need, you know? And I think that ,the like, the good thing about being in a collaboration is that, you know, it's like you get an extra brain, you get them like you have a whole extra person to to to like both commiserate with and also work with and create with and all of those things. And I love it. But I think that, you know, the way, like one way, that it should work and that it should be good is that it should always be someone that you are not afraid to say what you need and what you want from, because, you know, it's like if you can't say about, then what is the point? So I and it's and it's a thing that I appreciate about the way that we work with Gina also, you know. It's like I'm sorry, like today it's not good for me, or Friday is bad for this meeting, or actually this week I need some time off, or you know, like I don't need to be on video or whatever. Like there's nothing that, there's nothing that we cannot say to each other about what we need at work and that is really crucial. And even though we do all of those things, it doesn't mean that like we also don't, you know, the burnout is not knocking for burnout, is not knocking on our door. But I do feel confident that we can communicate around it.
Ann: Yeah. I mean, I don't take it for granted. And I also don't think it should be a luxury, you know what I mean? Like us describing the way that we get to work together. Like, I really, I want that for I want that for everyone.
Aminatou: OK, where do we go from here?
Ann: I mean, seems like a good point to announce that we're taking some time off. [laughter] Like…
Aminatou: I know [laughter]
Ann: Really, we really, really did a lot of groundwork for this announcement.
Aminatou: Yeah. So we, you know, like burnout is knocking on our door for sure. [laughter] And, you know, and some of that is some of it is the pandemic. Some of it is like a huge part of it, honestly, is the pandemic. It's just, it's hard. It's hard. But I think some of it is also that we have been doing this for six years longer now, I guess--
Ann: --Going on seven.
Aminatou: And yeah, going on seven. And, and we need a break like we need, we need a real break.
Ann: We are going to run a couple of archival episodes while we get a breather. This will be the last kind of like one hundred percent new fresh that you'll hear for a little while. And we might take, build in a similar break for later in the year. We're still figuring out the schedule. But essentially, I think, you know, we recognize that a lot of people really love to listen weekly and rely on it. And there have been times when we also really like being weekly and it has felt good to kind of be responsive to what's happening in the world and our changing feelings and have conversations about that. And but like, you know, right now, most of the time, that is feeling like a burden. And so I think we are collectively thinking about how to reset the way that we work and whether it's that weekly schedule or maybe it's something about our process. We're like we're doing some experiments. But, but yeah, like the experience, if you're listening to this, is going to be a block of reruns happening soon and then probably another block of reruns at some other point in the year while we get a little space. This is why it feels, feels cool to be in business with people who also care about these things. And also, I don't know, I feel good that the people who listen to the show will understand our need for a little breather and a structured breather maybe again later this year.
Aminatou: It has been like, really relentless and, and grueling. And I say that knowing fully that we love what we do. And even though we like you know, like we like working together and we like what we do, it's been, it's been really tough. So I feel, I feel really excited to just take like a real, a real break, and I'm also so aware of how lucky we are to be able to do that. You know, this is probably like the only area of work where I can say, like, OK, I'm putting a pin in it.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: So, you know, like that feels good. We'll be back in a month. You can keep an eye out for those announcements on social media. Maybe we'll send an email. Maybe that'll be the good case for sending an email. Actually, I don't know. I'm really excited about our break and I am very, very, very excited about it. And I'm excited to come back in a month and have new cool stuff that we've been working on.
Ann: That's what I was just going to say, is like, you know, sometimes you really have to get off the treadmill to be like, OK, like what, what am I, what would I really rather be doing with my time? And I think that I, too, am excited about, like, the creative possibilities of just not showing up in quite the same way every week for a little while.
Aminatou: I love this. I will see you on the Internet in a month.
Ann: I will not be working, but I will also see you on the internet. I'll see you,I'll see you socially on the Internet. Socially only.
[laughter]
Aminatou: Oh, my gosh. Bye.
Ann: Bye!
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.