Indoor Activities

11/20/20 - Purging our archives, mailing care packages in lieu of clothing swaps, confronting our own consumerism, who we imagine perusing our estate sales, secret talents, and some delightful things we're watching (including cults and sexy chess of course).

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll

WATCH LIST

  • The Queen’s Gambit (Netflix)

  • Both versions of The Thomas Crown Affair

  • The Vow (HBO Max)

  • Seduced (Hulu)

  • The Great British Bake Off (Netflix)

  • My Octopus Teacher (Netflix)

  • Golden Girls (Hulu)

  • The Host (Hulu)

  • Kramer vs. Kramer

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TRANSCRIPT: INDOOR ACTIVITIES

[Ads]

(1:08)

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda we are talking about being at home: what we're doing, the stuff we're surrounded with, and what we're watching.

[Theme Song]

(1:45)

Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman.

Ann: Hi Aminatou Sow.

Aminatou: How's it going?

Ann: Ugh, I mean I don't know. I'm okay. How are you?

Aminatou: You know Ann, I'm still here so let's count our blessings. [Laughs]

Ann: I will tell you I am embroiled lately in a very intense sorting process of my books, my papers, my closet, and my craft supplies. And I will tell you that it is really something at the end of this year to be confronted with all of these artifacts of the before times. Like I'm having a real personal reckoning to use the parlance of 2020 with all kinds of things I saved from the past.

Aminatou: Ugh, it really stresses me out how much stuff I personally accumulate, you know? Why are humans such packrats? And I say this as someone who lives a pretty compact life but it's still too much stuff. It's too much stuff.

Ann: I feel like that's true but also so I have this habit of whenever something appears in print, it's like stuff related to our book or things I wrote for really small magazines eight years ago or a friend -- I have you in the New York Times obviously saved, you know? Things like that.

Aminatou: Aww, look at you! I don't even have that. [Laughs]

Ann: Oh please, of course. I'm like I have some real old, old generation tendencies to be like yeah, I'm just saving this whole section of the paper you appear in because I feel like what I love, like an estate sale or something, being able to be like oh this is the complete magazine from that time. Or what was going on in the style section in 2018? You know what I mean? I kind of love that.

Aminatou: It's so funny. It's so funny you say estate sale because I think that I live my whole life trying to spare my loved ones having to have an estate sale someday. [Laughs] It's like any time I go to one of these I was like man, if only this person had, you know, diligently just like purged their stuff their loved ones would not have to have this estate sale today that I'm sure is painful for them. So I am constantly just trying to get rid of stuff. But it's funny that you say the magazine thing because remember when I moved into this apartment and I was getting rid of all my stuff? I think I sent you a picture of this. The only magazine that I have kept intact from an era of anything is the first time that I ever appeared -- that I ever got a byline which you gave me in The Prospect. And the reason I kept it is because the cover story was written by our dear Dayo Olopade. So I was like oh, this is a -- I was like this is one artifact that can stay for me, so in the memory box it is the only magazine that exists.

(4:30)

Ann: I mean obviously that is also in my periodicals. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Then I can get rid of mine, thank you. Since you're the archivist for our family, thank you. Now I can get rid of one more thing.

Ann: I like the idea. You can pretty much be assured if you have appeared in a national print publication I am hoarding it somewhere, like don't worry. [Laughter]

Aminatou: Great, when I'm building the Aminatou Sow Library of Nothing I will ask them to just reach out to you for the papers. I'm like all of my papers live at annfriedman.com so please find them there.

Ann: Well so here's the debate I'm currently having, some stuff I'm obviously keeping like photos of you and national publications. But there is this kind of gray area of things that I wrote for money, like things that I'm just like I purely did this because someone was willing to cut me a check and times were lean. And yet here is this physical evidence of something totally absurd that I never would have proactively said "This is a thing that I want to write." For example in 2012 Timeout Chicago -- what? -- commissioned me to write a cover story about how the culture wars were over and liberals won. [Laughs]

(5:45)

Aminatou: You wrote a cover story about the culture wars being over and I haven't read it? Excuse me?

Ann: I'm like I really . . . I found it and I had saved three copies of this first of all. Embarrassing. You know, not that I really believed it at the time. I was like this is a decent paycheck and I'm going to take it. But there is something really interesting where I'm like do I preserve the parts of my archive that are straight-up WTF? Or like I just did this for money. Do I want to remember things like that? You know, very different than I feel sentimental and proud of a really cute photo of you somewhere or a nice review of our book. That feels good and I want to hang onto that. But I'm like what is the value of hanging onto your embarrassing personal artifacts? Is there any?

Aminatou: Well I think that sometimes there's value right? This is tough. As someone who is always throwing things away, but it's true that I hold onto things that are meaningful, I guess you have to take off your "I'm Ann Friedman" hat and put on your "I'm curating the body of work of Ann Friedman." And I wouldn't think about it as whether you're embarrassed or not; I would think about it as like what does that represent in the work that you did, right? Because I have really enjoyed going through some old stuff either that I've written or old websites that I've made and been like oh, actually I'm not -- I'm embarrassed by this but I like that it represents an evolution of my work, you know? I think being a little more critical about okay, it's not just like the embarrassment factor but really does it show that you've improved? Does it show that you've changed your mind? Does it show that you were in a particular time in your life that was some kind of struggle? And I like the idea of you holding onto things being like oh yeah, there was a time in my life where I really had to write things for money and I was able to do that even if they were not things that I would love to put my name on.

Ann: Right. Like I don't want to forget there was a time in my life when I had to do work -- like write things that I really didn't even believe in in order to pay rent. There was a real moment for me of like okay, you and I get to talk about things that we really believe in deeply for part of our paycheck at least. Long story short I did save a copy of Timeout Chicago from 2012 in which I declared the culture war is over.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: That is real, spoiler alert.

Aminatou: I need you to scan it for me because I really need to read this, or I'm going to go find it on the Internet. I remember a lot of . . . obviously I have a Google Alert for you so I read everything you write but I do not remember that specific instance. I'm going to try to find that and read that. That's going to make my day today.

(8:15)

Ann: It might not've made it to the Internet to be quite frank.

Aminatou: I mean, Ann, the things you're hiding from me. You think you know somebody then they're out here telling you the culture wars are over in publications and I had no clue?

Ann: I probably hid -- I hid it from you in 2012 so definitely wasn't chatting about it in the last eight years. [Laughter] I hid it from everyone but my bank account.

Aminatou: Oh man, this is like -- I've always had this idea that I wanted to do a zine with just friends where everyone just writes a thing that is one secret but there is no byline on it so it's like a post-secret for friends. And I want to know what everyone's one secret is. I love that one of your secrets is this, I was just out here writing reckless.

Ann: Yeah, one of my secrets is I can effectively argue for anything if you pay me enough. That is my shameful secret. [Laughter]

Aminatou: I'm sorry, that's not shameful. I'm proud of you. Also you know what Ann? We've been through a lot and I'm really fighting this tendency that I know we both have and it's just very human. You feel like you have a little bit of stability and never wanting to look back to see how much work it was to get to where you are, you know? And I'm like I'm sorry, I've been your worker co-pilot and I know that you've been through a lot of shit so I'm glad that we can laugh about it today but I'm like the Ann of 2012 really had to do a lot of work. I love this is one superpower you have: you can argue for anything and you can do that in writing and you can do it fast so you can get paid for it. Not everyone can say that so good for you.

(9:52)

Ann: Thank you. And I have to say the closet cleanout has been -- which I had been saying I was going to do for all of COVID, at some point I maybe even declared it on this podcast -- the closet cull has also felt really, really good.

Aminatou: I love this. What I am not loving is that you're culling your closet and I have seen nothing that you're sending me yet so please remedy that.

Ann: Listen, as someone in a perpetual state of clean out I thought I was sparing you. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Listen, I'll take your cleanout my queen of thrifting good things.

Ann: Oh, god, now I've got to go through these totes and see what would be good for you. I was being pretty ruthless, I'll be honest.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: There is something that feels really satisfying about the pile of totes that just multiply in various corners, being like oh I'm going to stuff the totes I want to get rid of with other stuff I want to get rid of. Like that is really bringing me a lot of pleasure right now. Marie Kondo did not even touch that one and I'm like my giveaway turducken of clothes in totes that I'm giving away, mmm.

Aminatou: I'm dying. I'm going to tell you what my secret is. My secret is that I'm someone who lives in a one-bedroom apartment who has some very, very, very organized drawers. Everything is labeled and whatever. You know me, I'm a serial killer. [Laughs] But one of my very organized drawers, Ann, the whole thing is just filled with tote bags. That's my sickness. And so the other day when I was trying to figure out . . . you know, it's like the winter clothes have to come to the forefront and the summer clothes go in the back. And I was like man, I need more space. How can I create more space? Then I was confronted with this 30- or 50-gallon whatever full of tote bags. And I looked at it and I was like even if every single day I wore a new tote bag I would never get through this pile. Why am I collecting tote bags like they're commemorative magazines? And so I've started giving those away.

Ann: I mean because sometimes they are commemorative.

(11:50)

Aminatou: So I can make some room for my sweater. [Laughs] I mean they are. Some of them are great, I'm not going to lie, then there's my collection of Baggus. I also have a bag where all my Baggus live. You know, you always need a Baggu but also I can't live like this. We've been living inside the house for nine months. Do I need a hundred tote bags? I'm not sure it's a hundred but it definitely feels that way. So I'm going to start deacquisitioning those for myself.

Ann: I mean one of the totes in my giveaway zone of stuffed totes is stuffed with totes. [Laughs] So, you know, I feel like there's some real modern artifact. I know people have written excellent essays about this but when our society is excavated and they're like "What is evidence of this that we seem to be finding everywhere? Why did everyone have so many of these? They must've been really important."

Aminatou: Right, they're going to find your mummy with a tote bag and be like this was a really important artifact for people of that era. [Laughs]

Ann: Fully, this excess secretion of capitalism which is billions of totes are going to be interpreted as some religious artifact or something. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I mean, you know, now that you say the C word I do think this is why all of this stuff . . . it's why all of this stuff stresses me out. I only watched one episode of that TV show The Home Edit.

Ann: Me too, only one.

Aminatou: It is not for me, god bless. It looks amazing. It's basically a plot from like big container basically to get us to . . .

Ann: The other big C.

Aminatou: Right, big container to get us to contain everything. In fact I'm like all of the containers have to come from The Container Store. You can never find the containers at other stores. And I was just trying to figure out for myself like oh, how did I start doing this? Why am I doing this? Why is it that you just need more stuff to store your stuff or hide your stuff? And I think that for me part of why I like -- I always say I need everything to have a place or I want everything out of view which some of it is 100 percent my OCD, and before anyone comes for me I am diagnosed with OCD so it's true. And that's one part but I think the other part is I also just don't want to be confronted with my own consumerism.

The background of the pandemic when you're like yeah, the global economic order is hanging by a thread and I start surveying the things that I have and I'm like I don't need a lot of this stuff. I have it and it's nice not to have to go out and buy it when you need it again because that's fully the condition of being 30-something is you're always buying something you have seven of already at home. But just I look at it and I'm like how am I living? And I think there is a little bit of shame to that of just being like I have more than enough and I keep accumulating things and personally it is not aligned with the kind of person I want to be. And that is also just tough.

(14:40)

Ann: I think about the fact when I go through my books, like when I moved away from D.C. I still think about books I gave away in that purge which was everything except for one small box.

Aminatou: Ann, you know half of my books are books that I got from the trunk of your car right? [Laughter] Like any book that was a feminist book or policy book or some weird idea book that I was like oh, I really want to read this but I'm never going to pay for this, I got all of those from your car so it makes me really happy that those books came to me.

Ann: Yeah, I love that. I love that. I feel the same way which is why I love a clothing swap right? I think that is a way to get the high without the moral ramifications I guess. [Laughs] But that is also -- I mean I feel really challenged by that right now where there's no way for those things to go to a good home right now.

Aminatou: Yeah, it's funny you say that because one of the things that I definitely miss the most because we cannot have people over in our homes is I have fully turned into my mother where any time you come to my house you have to leave with something.

Ann: Oh fully.

(15:45)

Aminatou: You cannot leave empty-handed so that's how I usually get rid of all my . . .

Ann: You are the queen of take this candle home with you, yes. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah, I'm like take this candle, take this comforter. I'm just like take a thing, take a thing. And now I have my pile of things to be taken and I'm pretty good about donating things. I'm good about selling them on Thread Up or doing RealReal or whatever. But then there are these sentimental items that I'm like I psychologically need for them to go to someone that I know will enjoy it.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: Because I purchased with this specific feeling or a dress where I'm like I have such a good memory of it. Like I just need for someone I know to enjoy it.

Ann: Right, yeah.

Aminatou: And not being able to do that has been really hard but now I've taken to just doing care packages of that. So I had a friend call me the other day and she was like "Did you just send me a care package of the shit you didn't want anymore?" [Laughter] And I was like yes. But it is all luxury items and high-class and she sent me a picture of her wearing the dress and it made me really happy. I don't know. Maybe someone will find a good hack for this but I'm ready for us to start hosting people again because I have so many things to get rid of.

Ann: It's true, and I think this is why I avoided it for so long but it's bringing up for me a lot of questions of like oh, okay, in another year once we have Dolly Parton's vaccine and are out in the world.

Aminatou: Oh my god.

Ann: Am I still going to want to wear this thing I'm attached to from the past? Is that going to feel like a relic of the before times or is it going to bring me joy in whatever this world is that we all re-emerge into? Oh god, remember wearing pants that zip? [Laughs]

Aminatou: I know! And I'm sure that when life goes back to normal -- the phrase I hate the most -- but when life goes back to normal or whatever, or when we've had enough distance from the pandemic because of the Dolly Parton vaccine, I am trying to take some really positive things from this rotten experience into the future and I think that knowing viscerally that I can live with so much less stuff than I have right now or knowing like . . . the stuff is not what makes me happy essentially. I really want to remember that. Basically I want to have zero estate sale because I have already purged my own estate before I die.

(18:00)

Ann: Right. And I actually have an idealized estate sale where it's like oh wow, the fabric left by this woman is really the best. [Laughter] I want to impress some stranger who is not like oh my gosh, there is so much junk here. This person never did an edit or never did a cull of their possessions. I feel a great amount of joy when I walk through an estate sale and I see not boxes and boxes of dusty stuff they never looked at but the idea of some carefully-chosen things that really support an aesthetic and point-of-view someone had. I'm trying to impress a future random estate seller. I've fully already made peace with the fact I will need an estate sale. I have a deputized local friend who's going to remove crusty bottles of lube from my bathroom so they're not seen by strangers. [Laughter] I'm fully ready. I'm ready to go public with the stuff I have leftover like these books and this fabric, yeah.

Aminatou: Oh my god. Please just never forget our pact, Ann, that if I go before you which is likely what is going to happen please destroy my journals and my computers. This is what I need. And my electronics. I need you to dispose of them.

Ann: I'm going to burn the gournals, don't worry.

Aminatou: Yeah, this is the pact we have: burn the gournals, burn the computers, burn the electronics. Like literally with a hammer. Hammer them down to the memory board.

Ann: Yes, it'll be part of my grieving process.

Aminatou: That's all. Yeah, I'm like that's all I want. Please celebrate me this way. Ugh, what a macabre kind of topic but I'm into it. I don't know. For me part of why this is so . . . it's so vivid is my family and I, we had to dispose of a lot of my mom's stuff.

Ann: Yep.

Aminatou: Who, you know, died way too young, just like way too young, and I think we also did it the wrong way because obviously it was very unexpected and everyone was dealing with their grief in this fucked up way. Now I own very little of my mom's, like I have almost none of it, because in our culture when someone dies you give their stuff back to their family essentially. So my cousins and my aunts have everything that I want.

Ann: Oh man.

(20:12)

Aminatou: And some of it is hard for me and some of it is not, but that was a very . . . like the going through the motions of that of basically having to box up everything my mom owned is something that it's going to stay with me for the rest of my life and I really want to spare someone else having to do that because it is just -- it's a lot. So I think of that when I'm accumulating things. And I know that it's very dark but still it's like this stuff has to go somewhere and the stuff has way longer life than we do. It has longer lifespans than we do.

Ann: I hear you. True story about my parents is maybe a year or two ago they mailed me a printed out, itemized list of all of their possessions that they thought I might be interested in and were basically like put an X next to what you want.

Aminatou: Good parenting. Good parenting. Good job. Good job to your parents, I love hearing that.

Ann: The most organized people. But it was like yes there's obviously some things that I know I would want to hang onto but it was really hard because I'm like, you know, I don't know what experiences I'm going to have between now and whenever they die that are going to change how I'm going to feel about what I want to hang onto. Something that could kind of appear meaningless to me now might end up being full of meaning depending on what happens in the next, you know, two, five, ten years, whatever. And I like how it can be hard to decide what is going to be meaningful about you and your stuff to the people you leave behind. The list felt so funny for something that feels so complex and emotional to me, you know?

Aminatou: [Laughs]

(21:50)

Ann: I'm like yeah, I get it, good parenting. Right. This is what everyone wishes that their parents would do so things are swift and painless as possible when they're grieving. But I also am like that feels like part of the process, like reckoning with stuff feels like part of that process.

Aminatou: Yeah. I guess the reason I think it's such a good parenting move or, you know, just whatever is it is just normalizing this idea that death happens. It's like people die all the time then you have to make decisions in their absence. And just even knowing that you have to do it now, you know, it's not pleasant, it's not fun, who wants to think about it? It's a muscle that we all have to exercise because the older you get the more you are going to be confronted with these decisions whether you have to take care of your parents' stuff or a sibling or your partner or your loved one or your whatever. But we are so uniquely bad at reckoning with the fact that people die all the time, especially in American culture. And so I like the idea of, you know, it's not that they're like oh you have to choose today then in 50 years you're not going to fight with your sibling over who gets the couch or whatever. It's more the fact that you're like okay, this is something that I need to give some thought to because when the people are not here to dispose of their stuff you need some sort of mechanism through which you can communicate about that. And relationships are different. You know, we're both eldest-born children of families which means some of this will fall a little bit more on us. You know, shout-out to the older sibling union. [Laughs] We are fully -- you know, you know what the responsibilities are. 

But I find in a moment that feels so unnatural and is so hard and so fraught just having a baseline of like okay, we know what our mom and dad wanted or we know what this person wanted makes it a little bit easier even as you're going through the most unimaginable grief. And the not knowing, when you have to make a decision for someone else, I know firsthand experience you're just truly like what the fuck? You have no clue how to navigate that when you have to make every single decision.

Ann: Yeah. Do you want to take a -- I'm just like yes, let that stand. Let the record . . .

Aminatou: Let's take a break. Let's take a break. There's no home edit for grieving. [Laughs]

Ann: There's no color-coded grief system.

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(26:40)

Ann: Tell me what you're watching and doing at home. That feels like the right move.

Aminatou: [Sighs] I mean this instance right now as I'm talking to you my phone is blowing up because four people have sent me the exact same fleece and it all says we need this. [Laughs] And I was like X out of the fleece, I don't need that. But yeah, I've been watching a lot of TV, Ann. I started watching that cult TV series on HBO The Vow and it's so bad. I'm just going to tell you now it's so bad.

Ann: I thought you meant cult as in cult favorite, not literally about a cult. [Laughs]

Aminatou: No, no, no. I man literally about a religious cult, The Vow.

Ann: The one about Nivixium? [Laughs]

Aminatou: About NXIVM, Ann. [Laughs] It's so bad and it's so irresponsible. Instead watch the competing NXIVM documentary called Seduced that they get to what is wrong. I have not understood this cult since the beginning, like the Times did a big cover story about it. I've been reading about it forever. I watched The Vow and I didn't get it. I was just like why? And people who are in cults are 100 percent victims and I don't mean to make them sound like they're idiots or they're bad. I want to be really careful in choosing my words. But in everything I read and watched I didn't get what the attraction was. I'm like this cult leader is not attractive. This whole cult seems like it revolves around playing volleyball at night which is basically going to youth group. I don't get it.

Ann: A different kind of cult, let's be real.

(28:15)

Aminatou: Right, like I don't get it. They're all trying to be famous and I'm like if you're trying to be famous go to Scientology. Proven results. This cult is headquartered in Albany-Rensselaer or whatever that university is called. You know, everyone here is an extra from Battlestar Galactica. I don't get it. I did not get it. Eight episodes, I did not get it. Then I watched Seduced and I was like oh, this whole thing was basically about fake feminist empowerment. I was like okay, now I get how you got everyone onboard and I get how you actually victimized people. Because the problem with The Vow is the people who are telling the story are people who are complicit in making this cult so terrible.

Ann: So it's like the Fyre Festival problem?

Aminatou: It's the Fyre Festival problem but Ann, so much more dangerous. Fyre Festival we can all laugh about. Honestly The Vow is the most irresponsible documentary-making I have seen this decade. It's so terrible and I've been really disappointed that more people are not calling it out for what it is because it's so fucked up. I was like people's lives are at stake here, how can you tell the story so irresponsibly? But anyway all of that to say Seduced is so much better, watch that. I watched the white excellence Netflix limited series Queen's Gambit, like about chess. So good.

Ann: Let me tell you I actually am savoring it, like I have a couple episodes left. The thing about Queen's Gambit, first of all I thought it was some Crown spin-off based on the aesthetic and the little thumbnail on Netflix. [Laughter] I was like you know, I have been kind of limping along keeping up with The Crown even though I'm not a royal family person. And when I saw that I was like oh god, is this the competing or some other? No, no, different kind of queen.

(30:05)

And I have to say this is okay, a true thing about me for a long time has been a sexual root for me is sexy chess. Case in point, Madonna's Power of Goodbye video from the Ray of Light album when I was a teen.

Aminatou: Oh, thank you.

Ann: Please go watch it. It is like Madonna in her kind of '90s Tom Ford era on a windswept, rainy island playing sexually fraught chess with some bohunky '90s male model. I love it so much. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Screaming, screaming, screaming.

Ann: There's like a cut the tension by sweeping all the chess pieces from the board moment and teen me was quivering for it. Quivering.

Aminatou: I'm dying. Dying.

Ann: Which later was followed -- I think it must've been after that I watched the original Thomas Crown Affair because I think the Pierce Brosnan/Rene Russo remake was from around that time as well, like late '90s/early 2000s.

Aminatou: Ugh, Rene Russo is so perfectly casted. There is no one -- her sexy neck, like she is so well-cast in that movie.

Ann: Also a white woman in tawny lipstick, like what a '90s moment you know? [Laughs]

Aminatou: Ugh, what a '90s moment. Ugh, that is good. The original also good. I think the last time I watched the original, Ann, we watched it together I want to say.

Ann: No doubt because I love it because it also contains a sexy chess scene. [Laughs] That is why I bring it up.

Aminatou: How have I not known you were a slut for chess? Who knew?

Ann: Actually it is fully in the realm of fantasy in the sense of this is not something I actually want to enact in my own sex life. Never have I, you know, approached a sexual partner and been like "Okay, so just hear me out here. Like let's just sit on opposite sides of this chess board." [Laughter]

Aminatou: I'm screaming.

Ann: It's like I enjoy other people engaging in -- I like it fully just in the realm of fantasy. So anyway you can draw a line directly from Madonna's Power of Goodbye video through the Thomas Crown Affair, the original and the remake, to the Queen's Gambit. This is my greatest joy is biting lip, like who's move is next like whatever coupled with women excelling which is obviously my favorite genre of anything. So yes. [Laughs]

(32:40)

Aminatou: Ugh, the acting in The Queen's Gambit is so good that I've forgiven the fact that they're inexplicably in an integrated orphanage in the beginning of the story which is only done to serve the fact that they're going to introduce this magical negro character. And the actress who plays the black friend in that is such a good -- like she's such a, such a, such a presence that I'm momentarily forgetting the problematic aspects of this because it's really what I needed. Like I watched that in one sitting. I'm not ashamed to say I watched seven hours of television in one sitting, it was so good.

Ann: Not saving it for me time like I am, yeah. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Mm-mmm, not saving it for me time. I was like I watched it then I watched it again. I will also not forgive The Queen's Gambit for even momentarily making you think that the kid from Love Actually, you know, the airport running child from Love Actually, is maybe handsome. I was like this is guillotine, unforgivable.

(33:45)

Ann: I feel like I have the relationship to that guy the way that I do to hot priest from Fleabag where I'm like fascinating to watch this play out.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: Like this is ticking zero sexual boxes for me. It's really interesting that everyone is having that experience because wow, I have not bought what they are selling.

Aminatou: Oh man, the hot priest in Fleabag is one of the most contentious arguments in my group chat where it's, you know, is he hot or is he sexy? And we decided that he's sexy because of the priesthood of it all. But I similarly did not buy it. The priest makes me deeply uncomfortable and I was not into it and I was not here for people being attracted to it. It's my . . . I am not Catholic at all but it falls into my Haram box and I was like this is not working for me. [Laughs]

Ann: That could go either direction. I thought you were going to say it falls into my Haram box which is why it is sort of sexy. [Laughter]

Aminatou: No, there are three things that I'm full Haram cannot be attracted to and priest is 100 percent one of them. Even though my mom's -- another secret I have is one of my mom's favorite books was, god, Thornbirds.

Ann: Thornbirds?

Aminatou: And I 100 percent read it in secret, you know? It would be like "Who moved my book?" and I'm like I don't know, then I'm reading it being like I am feeling feelings in the bottom of my stomach.

Ann: Quivers again. [Laughter]

Aminatou: Like what's happening here? What else is good on the television box? Honestly this season of Bake Off is not incredible but there have been some incredible moments. These amateur bakers really are amateurs, you know? I just cannot. I just cannot with how it . . . yeah, this show, it's a British Xanax. There are no stakes. The baking is so bad. Did you watch the first episode where they had to make cakes in the likeness of famous people and there's this Lupita Nyong'o cake that honestly Lupita should sue the entirety of the United Kingdom because of this cake. It's so awful. Even if you don't watch Bake Off please just Google it so you can see the picture, like the picture is iconic. And I am proud to say it was my first real laugh in quarantine. Like of everything that could've made me laugh this was the one time I laughed so hard I cried and I was like okay, nature is healing. I am laughing again. This is amazing.

(36:20)

Ann: I was fully weeping and I have to say, okay, lumpy David Bowie, like there are so many highlights of that episode. [Laughter] I really, yeah.

Aminatou: It's the first episode of the season so truly if you're listening and you're like I don't really fuck with Bake Off just do it. Rewind -- fast-forward to 20 or 30 minutes in and you are golden. It's truly incredible television.

Ann: But it's so good. I was thinking about this, because I don't watch Nailed It or shows that are really about people kind of failing at ridiculous baking projects like this. Not really my thing; I'm not that interested. And I think there's something about the fact that this is a more serious container, like it's so sincere that people are like "I'm trying to do a good job here." It's not about making something garish.

Aminatou: Right.

Ann: And that's why it's so funny. Also just the kind of proper confines of splitting hairs about what is or isn't a Bakewell tart or whatever, like arguing about these ultimately kind of rigid but meaningless categories of different baked goods I have to say, like introducing it into that environment is part of what made it so funny. Really I agree with you, I wept I was laughing so hard, like rewound and watched it again. It is like the late quarantine shot of serotonin I really needed.

Aminatou: Ugh, god, I was like my serotonin has come to war. When will it come back? It has come back. [Laughter]

(37:50)

Ann: It's come back in the form of a Lupita Nyong'o cake.

Aminatou: I know, what else? We're both watching on HBO Max the crafting kids show.

Ann: Craftopia.

Aminatou: Craftopia. Very delightful I will say. I like kids doing things like that and it's not like overly competitive or bitchy or whatever. That is also like Xanax to me so I'm into that. What else? Otherwise I feel I've just been watching bad documentaries if I'm honest.

Ann: Did you watch the octopus one on Netflix?

Aminatou: No, I have not seen it. I am saving that for me time. [Laughter] That is my . . . I'm so glad you brought that up. I've been saving that for me time. I was like I'm going to need, you know, probably around Thanksgiving or Christmas when things are really, really dark and dire I'm going to need this and that's what I'm saving the octopus documentary for.

Ann: I love it. Yes, 100 percent. I have been lately when I just want something on in the background when I'm cooking or puttering around I've been doing a Golden Girls revisit which I know everyone is revisiting comfort TV. But it is reminding me of this very brief period of my life, it was like when I lived in D.C., the only time in my life I've had a gym membership briefly. I would run to the gym two blocks away and then I would do the elliptical for the duration of one Golden Girls episode then I would run back to my house one block away and that was my fitness regimen. [Laughter] And it's funny because I haven't really engaged with it since then but it's been my background whatever and it's doing the trick. You know, it's like that low stakes kind of . . . it's like the thunder vest of television, you know?

Aminatou: That's so funny. I'm laughing hearing you say that because the one time I had a serious gym membership all I would watch on the TV was Food Network. I would work out so hard to Food Network and then go home and I'm like I want to eat every single thing in my house. I wonder why? And it was this stupid treadmill Food Network connection. [Sighs]

(40:00)

Ann: Well I'll tell you one other thing I'm watching is former guest and friend of the podcast Maurice Harris on In Bloom. I love a crafty, low-stakes competitive show and it's checking that box for me.

Aminatou: Ugh.

Ann: And also yes I do want to look at flowers right now, thank you.

Aminatou: It looks so good. It looks so good and honestly before this I was like I had never seen a flower arranging show before so that is actually lovely and I like these bouquets and I will keep buying flowers because I have no interest in arranging my own.

Ann: Fully.

Aminatou: So it's perfect. The TV comfort is back. There was a moment in quarantine where I really could not focus on screens, like it's like in season one we had Tiger King then after that I really couldn't watch any TV at all.

Ann: Right, you were doing movies only.

Aminatou: Yeah, I was doing movies only and I'm still doing a lot of movies if I'm honest. Criterion Collection, the app is treating me very correctly and I'm into it. But it's nice to watch TV again. It's nice to watch TV again. Maybe one day I'll read books again but for now I'm on the TV train.

Ann: I'll tell you what else I revisited recently, your mention of Criterion made me think of this, is The Host, the Bong Joon-ho film from 2006.

Aminatou: Ooh, so good.

Ann: Which I remember seeing in the theater. As a person who does not really do horror I think I went in being kind of afraid it was going to be gross out or something. I mean with a name like that it sort of implies. I have a visceral memory of being just so delighted when I left the movie theater. Remember movie theaters? Anyway, and I had not seen it since then since it was originally released. And now obviously there is more context for his work but it really brought me a lot of joy. It manages to do this thing that I think Parasite also does and some of my favorite movies also do which is to say that something really intense is happening onscreen but because the director has decided that the tone is going to be light or is going to be funny or whatever you're able to kind of separate what your brain would normally associate with the kind of difficult, emotional experience.

Aminatou: Right.

(42:10)

Ann: And instead enjoy it in the farce or gross out comedy or satire or whatever context the director has really placed on it. The Host feels like a master class in that to me where I'm like I don't like monster movies. I don't like scary movies. I don't like horror movies and yet I laughed at this all the way through.

Aminatou: I love this for you. I'm like maybe I'm going to revisit that soon. Well no, you know, I have a list that I'm working my way through so I'm going to work on my list.

Ann: A list?

Aminatou: Yeah, I have a list of movies I really want to see. I'm watching the cinema dude bro canon because I realized I really never . . . [Laughs] my experience of watching Criterion honestly has been this and being like okay, I'm going to be a serious cinema person. My experience watching all these movies is my parents had really excellent taste because these are all the movies my dad would watch all the time and so it's been fun to talk to him about it. And he's like oh, finally you're taking me seriously. And I was like yeah. Or some things I just watched when I was too young to watch, like one of the movies I just re-watched recently was Kramer vs. Kramer.

Ann: Oh yeah.

Aminatou: And first of all I cannot believe my parents let me watch Kramer vs. Kramer when I was a child. I was like that's insane.

Ann: I also saw it pretty young, yeah.

Aminatou: I was like what a negative parenting moment over here, this is bad. But also that movie is amazing. Like truly one of the highlights of watching movies recently. Meryl Streep amazing, amazing, amazing. Dustin Hoffman I get it can act. Like I've always known this but I didn't really know. I was like oh yeah, I was too young for all these movies actually. So good. But also when you put it all in a contemporary context of Meryl Streep being someone who has not really said a lot about Me Too but her own experience on that set and Dustin Hoffman full monster in general you're like okay, I am starting to understand culturally what was happening in these moments. It's a movie that's essentially -- it's essentially about how maybe feminism has gone a little too far and fathers need rights, you know?

Ann: [Laughs]

(44:30)

Aminatou: And so if you're watching it with an uncritical eye or take you're just like yeah, single dads! Yes, give him more rights. He should be able to have his kid around. Fathers matter and men are important and blah, blah, blah and this deadbeat mom. Then you're like oh no, here's the scam of society: this is not a real polemic, you know? It is a polemic. It's like wow, if only Hollywood would also take women's rights as seriously as they're taking these late '70s/early '80s men seriously maybe we would get somewhere.

So it's fascinating. It's fascinating to watch a movie that is so good. The movie is so good. Some of the people are so problematic, and then just really look at it with this critical eye. It is blowing my mind and complicating a lot of my own . . . I have complicated feelings where I'm like oh yeah, don't love the artist, love the art. What's happening here? I love it.

Ann: Ugh, okay, well I'm going to revisit it and also prepare myself to be angry about the portrayal of men's rights in the late '70s. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I mean yeah, you're just like . . . I just see why for my parents this was such an important movie. You're like okay, divorce, so taboo. But also the woman is who has done this kind of unforgivable thing here. Here is a way that also our laws are really biased towards mothers in essence. But I'm just like okay, that's also a scam. It's because as a society we've decided only women are parents and this is fucked up. But yeah, it's just fascinating. And I'm watching a lot of movies by problematic men also that I won't name so I don't get canceled. But I will say this: some of those men made really good movies. [Laughs] I was like I get why people are mad. I finally get the white man outrage of Me Too where they're like "Will so-and-so ever make a movie again?" And I'm like oh yeah, the body of work is good. I get it now. Okay, I was like now I respect your outrage but yeah, that person should not be allowed to make movies anymore. Goodbye.

(46:25)

Ann: Right. It is true that you're really good at what you do and also privileges have been revoked, you know? Both of those things can be true. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah. I'm like yeah, who knew some of these bad men? If instead of harassing ladies you were just making movies maybe you'd get further in life. This is so wild. Anyway, all of this is to say Ann the white man movie canon is very good, very well-done.

Ann: Wow, I can't believe this is where this episode has netted out. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Listen, I like to give credit where credit is due. Sometimes men do incredible things and I was like give it up for them, like some of these movies are phenomenal. I get it now.

Ann: Right, and if you could see me right now I'm wearing my men have made a lot of bad art t-shirt and just pointing at that because that is also true.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Listen, it's true that men have made bad art and sometimes you're like ugh, why are you defending this guy? He's made nothing or whatever, or we can do better than this. But sometimes you're like no, this shit is amazing! It is legitimately amazing and I understand the grievance better. I don't respect it but I understand it. You've had your turn and also what would've happened if instead of being a monster you had let the women of your era also have a turn? Maybe we would have amazing movies by them but we'll never know that.

Ann: A question for every single art form and industry frankly.

Aminatou: Right, this is just basically one long ad for the Criterion Collection app that is amazing. I get no money for saying this but let me tell you that app is amazing and I'm so happy to have it. Best . . . 

Ann: This show is like an ad for mailing your friends articles of clothing, the Criterion app, and sexy chess. [Laughs]

Aminatou: And sexy chess. The other thing I will say is if there's a cool indie cinema in your town and you are looking for ways to support them in the pandemic you should look to see if they're doing digital subscriptions. Like the Metro Graph in New York is and I have also really enjoyed. That's some of the best pandemic money I've spent, I'm so happy to do it, and I get to watch the movies in my house. The cuts are amazing. Independent cinema is an institution and we really should support it.

Ann: Yes. Okay, on that note I will see you on the Internet.

Aminatou: I will see you on the Internet. Please mail me your lux clothes that you're getting rid of and good luck sorting through your stuff.

Ann: Don't at me when the shipping container of tote bags arrives at your house.

Aminatou: [Laughs] I don't want any totes, Ann. I'm looking for cool shirts. I want some cool shirts. If you have leather anything and some jackets.

Ann: All right.

Aminatou: I love you, bye! You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.
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