Use the Power You Have

9/18/20 -

How can we create change from within institutions? We talk with longtime civil rights activist, Pramila Jayapal, who was elected to Congress in 2016 about her work with the Congressional Progressive Caucus, pushing for change within the Democratic Party. Plus, the challenging pace of change within government and the prospects for better federal policy to support immigrants, people out of work, and Black and brown communities devastated by police violence and other structures of white supremacy. We also discuss the viral moment in a 2019 hearing, when she reflected on being the parent of a non binary child. Rep. Jayapal's new book is Use the Power You Have.

Transcript below.

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CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll

LINKS

Use the Power You Have by Rep. Pramila Jayapal

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TRANSCRIPT:

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(0:25)

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.

Aminatou: Hey Ann Friedman!

Ann: Hello, hello, hello. I know we do not often do interviews together for reasons of logistics and it can be kind of difficult to have two people jumping in but I love listening to you work. I was like yes, this is the best! [Laughter] I love hearing you ask some questions in real-time as opposed to when I listen back to the episode.

Aminatou: [Laughs] I hear you.

Ann: I realize this is all a very mysterious lead-up to saying who our guest actually is.

Aminatou: I know!

Ann: On the real agenda today we have an excellent interview with congresswoman Pramila Jayapal who has represented Washington's 7th Congressional District which is kind of the Seattle area since 2017. She is also the co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus which is a caucus that makes up approximately 40 percent of House Democrats and she is the author of a new book called Use the Power You Have: A Brown Woman's Guide to Politics and Political Change.

[Theme Song]

[Interview Starts]

(2:10)

Aminatou: Congresswoman thank you for joining us today!

Pramila: I am so excited to be with you both.

Ann: We are thrilled. We don't often do interviews together but we both really, really wanted to be here so we're going to do our best to tag team it.

Pramila: [Laughs] That's awesome.

Aminatou: How are you, where are you, and how is the pandemic treating you so far?

Pramila: I am in Seattle and it is smoky here as it is in much of the west and the northwest and so I think we're all worried about our constituents and people across our states adding yet another crisis onto already multiple crises of the pandemic, unemployment, and then white supremacy. So it's tough, you know? I think a lot of my constituents are really hurting and worried about what the future is and I'm trying to work as hard as I can to change that picture and fix a lot of things that frankly we're going to need a lot of change and leadership to fix.

Ann: Ugh, you know, that list of things you mentioned, all of these long, ongoing crises that are feeling particularly acute right now, I mean one thing that we talk about a lot on the show is about how hard it can be to figure out where the priorities should go. Where should you put your attention when all of these things are happening simultaneously and so urgently? And both from your background as an organizer but also from your significant political experience I'm wondering if you can talk about how you start to answer those questions of where to dig in and what to put off for a little while.

(3:50)

Pramila: Yeah. Well what I always tell people is to pay attention to what your heart says. You know, if there is an issue that really is near and dear to your heart and you feel drawn to it that is the thing that's going to keep you most active and at the end of the day that's what we want. We want you to be as active in democracy and preserving democracy as possible so that's first and foremost.

But then the other thing I say to people is these things are not disconnected. They are really, really connected. White supremacy and anti-blackness is deeply connected to economic inequality and devastation for so many people across the country which is deeply connected to healthcare or the lack thereof in this country which is deeply connected to climate change and climate justice. And so the more that people can connect these issues in their head it is helpful even if they choose not to work on everything. It's helpful to really understand those interconnections.

And then the last thing is right now I'm telling everybody it is all about voting. It is all about voting. We have got to get Trump out of the White House and so that is taking priority over a lot of other things and I think it's also where people are anxious to try to make their voices heard whether it's around preserving the postal service and making sure that we have vote by mail or the census or just actually getting out and voting, registering more people and understanding what the issues are and what's at stake.

Aminatou: Hmm. I think it's fair to say that you are leading the most influential block of progressive power in the federal government since you are the cochair of the progressive caucus. I'm just wondering if you can tell us more about your vision for the caucus and what you're learning about leadership in that role?

(5:50)

Pramila: Yeah. Well as you know or maybe your listeners don't know I was an activist and an organizer for 20 years before coming to Congress. When I came in in 2017 it was the year Trump had been elected, I mean it was just hellish. I really realized how little infrastructure there was to support progressives inside of Congress and I'm kind of an infrastructure gal, like I think of things in that way, and I had never really wanted to be in elected office but I came into elected office because I felt like we were seeding this really important political space for us to have an impact as progressives by running for office and being in office. And then I got in and I was like oh my god, there's no support in here. The progressive caucus itself, we had one guy, one really fabulous guy, but one staff person for a hundred members and it was just crazy.

So we increased our dues, we added more staff so that we could actually run an effective organization inside of Congress. Then we also helped build up 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(4) organizations, the Congressional Progressive Caucus Center and the Congressional Progressive Caucus Action Fund that coordinate policy table of progressive think tanks. You know, really great people who are thinking about okay, how do we bring inside/outside organizing together?

And then the third piece is a CPC pack, a progressive caucus pack, that can invest in actually electing progressive members. So hello Mondaire Jones. Our first independent expenditure that we got started this year was to help elect Mondaire. Now we're working on Beth Doglio in Washington 10. This is going to be a D-on-D race but it's an opportunity to get a real progressive into the seat.

(7:45)

And so this is the work we're trying to do on every level, building the infrastructure so that we can have the votes we need in Congress and also the muscle, you know? The courage to take on leadership, our own leadership sometimes which is one of the hardest things to get people in a place to do.

Aminatou: I have a very naïve follow-up. So you have to pay dues to be in a caucus? I thought just like people going to lunch that are congressmen call themselves a caucus. This is actually blowing my mind.

Pramila: Yes you have to pay dues to be in many caucuses. Not all but the ones that are really significant. You know, you have to pay dues to be a Democratic member.

Aminatou: This explains so many things. Wow.

Pramila: If you're a member of the Democratic Caucus you have to pay big dues. We're not talking about big dues but we're talking about smaller dues for these kinds of caucuses. But that is what allows us to hire a staff person right? So we have an executive director for the Congressional Progressive Caucus who staffs us. We have a comms director. We have a policy director. I think we have five people on staff whose work it is to sort of coral our members and to help get people on the same page. Because if you can't get to a member and get them to say "Okay, I'm going to vote yes or no on this amendment or this bill" you don't have any power. You've got to be able to leverage that stuff and you need organization to be able to do that.

Ann: Ugh. I think this question too of like how do you leverage the power that you have within an institution like . . .

Pramila: Hey that's a good title for a book, Use the Power You Have. [Laughter]

Aminatou: You can -- when you're ready to write a next book that can be your . . .

Ann: Yeah, sub the use for leverage and that's your sequel. [Laughter] That's great. No it's like when the person says the title of the movie with a totally straight face and everyone's laughing at that. Yeah.

Aminatou: I would love it if all of your book titles it was just one word off every single time.

Ann: Capitalize on the Power You Have, yeah. All the different iterations.

(10:00)

Pramila: We'll think about that, a whole series.

Ann: I was going to ask you about the fact that from the outside watching what's happening in Congress and in Washington more broadly it can feel extremely disheartening where yes we have individuals there like you and many other members of your caucus who are 100 percent aligned with what we want to see happening and yet it's just it feels like the way the system is setup is not designed for things to move quickly or for things to move at a rate that one would like them to move when we're talking about economic collapse and a global pandemic and all the other pressing things that are happening. And so I'm wondering how you experience that kind of institutional gridlock or that kind of slow-moving feeling, if that's something that rings true for you on the inside as well or if that's just something that we experience as we read the headlines on the outside.

Pramila: No. It's so true and it's incredibly frustrating. I mean I feel that way about change in general that it's never as fast as we want it to be. I think politics on the inside is particularly frustrating because of the institutions that are setup to prevent quick change from happening. And yet you look at Trump in the White House and he's managed to do all kinds of things really quickly and so sometimes I also feel like there is this resistance to taking on big change -- positive change, change that actually is good for working people and black and brown folks across the country and women across the country. There's this antipathy to moving quickly on big change and it's built into the way the systems work but it's also built into sort of the usification of leadership if you will. You know, people who have been around for a long time which is often lovely and really important and also you need institutions to have new blood and to have people who are more impatient.

(12:10)

I know Speaker Pelosi thanks me a lot for my impatience. I don't know if she's really thankful. [Laughter] I'm constantly pushing very, very hard and I do think that we need to do big things in Congress at the federal government. I mean I've said for some time that Trump is both a symptom and a cause. He's the cause of some really horrific stuff and he's got to go but he's also a symptom of a government that has not stepped up on both sides of the aisle, stepped up for people before he ever got in. I mean we had 60 percent of Americans that didn't even have 400 bucks in their bank account before COVID ever hit. We had 87 million Americans who were either uninsured or under-insured. We had a labor movement where workers had been declining in power relative to the largest corporations for some time because we hadn't redone our labor laws and given more power to workers to keep up with the concentration of wealth and power. And then of course we've had racism and anti-blackness and white supremacy built into all of the institutions of our country and it took the murder of George Floyd for Congress to even begin to consider passing some what are considered sweeping changes in Congress and what the movement would consider not even close to enough.

And so I just think that is part of the system that we operate in but the way I think about it is I conjure up Sojourner Truth and all these other amazing models for myself in our history and think about any big change in the country or in the world that's ever happened. It has never happened quickly. There has been a long history of movement building and then a tipping point. And you never know when that tipping point is going to be there and ready to go but you've got to prepare for it and you've got to be ready and you can't give up on the urgency even when you're the most frustrated at how slowly change is moving.

(14:25)

Aminatou: You know something that's been also really disheartening to watch is Congress kind of never acknowledging that the economic suffering that is happening right now is really devastating people's lives. Not in some abstract way but in a real day-to-day way. We keep seeing these economic rescue bills being discussed and some of them are coming in quickly and some of them are not coming quickly enough. There's not really -- to me it seems like a vision for something that is more ambitious than just putting a band-aid on the situation. And here you have proposed this paycheck guarantee act that is actually very ambitious. Can you talk a little about that? And also do you think that a big, ambitious bill actually has a chance of getting passed in the Congress that we're in right now?

Pramila: Unfortunately I don't think it has a chance of getting passed in this Congress but I do think it has a chance of getting passed in the next Congress and I do think we still have a shot of getting a smaller version through but it's going to be tough. You know, this is a bill that I worked on as soon as COVID hit because I saw countries like Germany and countries in Europe already starting to put something similar in place and I started working with economist Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Prize winning economist Mark Zandi who's the head of Moody's, he's the chief economist at Moody's, not exactly a progressive but super smart, wonderful man, and a number of others. The Congressional Progressive Caucus Center was really crucial in this as well at really looking at how would the United States of America do something similar where the federal government would essentially guarantee support to businesses to keep workers in their jobs, getting their paychecks and their benefits, and subsidize some of the operating costs for businesses to stay in operation? And it would be for all businesses. You know, unlike the Paycheck Protection Program which is a PPP program where all these loans had to go through banks.

(16:40)

And we know the big banks have never been the friends of small business and particularly minority businesses so many of those businesses got left out. Big companies that were friends of the Trumps or had relationships with big banks, they got loans, but many of them didn't use the money to keep people and their paychecks. And so the paycheck guarantee was a completely different idea. It was subsidize people to stay in their payrolls and their benefits. They wouldn't lose their healthcare because they lost their job as has happened to 27 million Americans so far. But also we would get all these small businesses because they would get money directly from the treasury. Everyone has to file a tax return every quarter no matter how big or small your business is and it's just a really easy way to get money to people and to bring certainty to businesses and to workers to be able to continue.

Now it would also keep unemployment down. You know, we went the route of expanding unemployment which is great, I totally support that, but think about what happens when everyone moves into the unemployment system. These unemployment systems are collapsing because there's too many systems that have been decimated because of austerity spending, not enough money being put into those systems. They can't handle these huge numbers. And then some states like Florida and Texas have gone out of their way to really skinny down their unemployment benefits so that a lot of the lowest-wage workers don't even qualify for unemployment which is just crazy.

(18:15)

And what happens in a recession? The people that have the hardest time getting out of unemployment and back into jobs, guess who? BIPOC folks, black, indigenous, and folks of color because of the hiring discrimination that exists. So, you know, if we had done a paycheck recovery act plus expanded unemployment we would've kept a lot of people in their jobs. Almost every other pure country in the world has done this: Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, Australia, UK, France, Germany, etc., but the United States has not. So it's a big idea but it's really essential and frankly it would've saved us a ton of money because we wouldn't be doing very expensive COBRA subsidies. We wouldn't be pushing more people onto Medicaid. We wouldn't need to do stimulus checks or you could target stimulus checks to those who are most vulnerable instead of doing a $1,200 check to everyone. You know, there are just all kinds of ways in which I think we actually would've saved money if we had had the foresight to just be big and bold like that.

Ann: Ugh, big and bold. It sounds great and then getting people to do that. [Laughs]

Pramila: You know the one thing I will say about that is I was really surprised. It's a bipartisan -- I got it to be a bipartisan bill and it's also across the caucus. I got a lot of Democrats who are more conservative in swing districts that signed onto it because it's a jobs bill. It's a bill about how you keep people in their jobs and it also is a pro-business bill because it keeps businesses going to the point where they don't have to deal with shuttering in the midst of a crisis. They get a little bit of relief to stay and figure out what they need to do. It's not going to protect them forever but it sort of helps them to have time to make these decisions.

(20:05)

Ann: Yeah, so maybe you could talk a little bit about that, about how you strategically kind of frame these issues that I think you and we really see as related to something like economic justice but maybe framing it as a pro-business bill is what is going to get more traction or mileage for it.

Pramila: I don't think that they're, you know, not complementary. I think you can talk about it. Like I've said one of the ways I've talked to my colleagues about it is I said "Listen, this is a pro-jobs bill. Democrats should be the party of keeping people in their jobs, not sending them onto unemployment." And I don't think that that counters in any way the idea that we should have a strong unemployment system so that if we can't keep people in their jobs, if they have conditions that make them even more vulnerable and they end up unemployed then we should be really generous. But how about the fact that we should do both right?

And people love that and actually after we passed the Heroes Act which I ended up voting against which was not the common thing that Democrats did because it didn't include this in it and I also thought it didn't include enough for healthcare specifically Josh Holly who's a conservative senator from Missouri told the press or released a statement like "I can't believe the Democrats didn't want to be the party of keeping people in their jobs by passing the Paycheck Recovery Act." And I thought oh, okay.

Ann: [Laughs]

Pramila: So I think it's just talking to people about what -- pulling out the pieces of a bill that answer people's questions or biggest concerns and kind of not being wedded to talking about it in a particular way but also, you know, not feeling like you can't talk about it in a way that also appeals to say our base or the left. In this case I think everybody wanted the same thing: they wanted stability, certainty. They wanted to stay in their jobs as much as possible and they wanted to have it be as simple and quick of a process as possible instead of going through banks and all kinds of forms and all of that.

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(24:50)

Aminatou: Speaking of working with some of your colleagues who are more conservative even if they're Democrats you have said before that it's a lot easier to be on the outside and to be pure and never having to make compromises. But ultimately that also means giving up some sort of power. So how do you square the compromises that you have to make day-to-day in that job with a progressive vision of the future that you have?

Pramila: Yeah. That's one of the hardest things because I think as an activist you can hold sort of perfection as your goal and you can say "Well I don't need to weigh in on everything but on this particular thing, this issue that I'm working on, this is my position and I'm going to hold it." We have to take dozens of votes every single day and we have to vote yes or no on a bill. So every bill you kind of have to assess does it go far enough and should I vote yes or no?

(25:50)

My belief on compromise is there's too many people that talk about compromise as if it means just going to the center right? So if one person believes in zero percent and the other person believes in 100 percent you go to 50 percent. And to me that makes no sense because if there are 5,000 families who are being separated from their kids and I want to end family separation and somebody else doesn't believe in ending that should we just say "Okay, well let's end it for 2,500 families instead of 5,000?" I don't really think that's what we would go for.

So I think about principled compromise. What does principled compromise mean? And to me it's two things. One is are you making a deal where some people are going to be better off at the expense of others? So some people move forward and other people move backwards. To me that's not a principled compromise. That would be very hard for me to support. And then the second is does it go as far as you think it can go in this moment? And that requires judgment and, you know, sort of a reality lens of how you look at something because you may want something but if you don't have the votes for it you don't have the votes for it.

And that's the part that I think is really hard for sometimes activists on the outside to understand, they're like why don't you have the votes for it? Why can't you just stall and say we're not going to vote for it unless you give us this? But every scenario has a really different set of variables so if it's a deal where it's a Democratic majority and you have 20 votes to block the bill from going to the floor one option that the speaker could take is she could make the bill less progressive and then get a bunch of Republicans to come onboard. That's often what happens with defense authorization bills because progressives are not going to vote for those kinds of bills often.

(28:00)

And so something less progressive is going to pass because we held out for something and we didn't have enough votes to carry it through. And so there's so many factors that go into it and I've really -- I hate that part of it because that's the hardest is you just have to make a judgment about whether you think you can go further and whether there's a principled reason to hold out or whether you think it's more strategic to get as much as you possibly can done and then keep trying for the next step.

Ann: So as mentioned your new book is called Use the Power You Have: A Brown Woman's Guide to Politics and Political Change. And I'm wondering if you have advice for black and brown women specifically but really anyone who is looking to get into politics.

Pramila: I have a bunch of tips in the book but one of the things I say to people is think about what you want to do, not who you want to be. And I think there's a lot of people that get drawn to politics because of the power you have with the platform but it's alluring and sometimes you end up forgetting what it is you actually wanted to do with that power. And so I really like when people are organizers in their community in way, shape, or form and really get to know people in their communities and are grounded in that because it's good to bring that into Congress with you. You know, it'd good to sit into a hearing and think about the voices of immigrants who have traveled across oceans and deserts to get to the United States, the stories of real people who are trying to pay rent or trying to pay for childcare. It's just really good to be grounded in all of that very clearly so that you know exactly why you are there. It is not to bring about more power for yourself; it's to use the power you have for the good of the world. So that's probably one of the first things.

(30:00)

And then the second that I tell people all the time is just trust yourself. Trust your heart. Be open with your vulnerabilities. I think it makes you more human and I think one of the big problems with government today is that there's so many people who think it's not relevant to them and they don't really see a connection between themselves and the person who represents them. So I do a lot of work to try to just be who I am and be real with people about some of the challenges I've had but also mostly in the context of how it affects their lives and public policy.

Aminatou: Hmm. You know last year we loved your speech about your experience of being the parent of a non-binary child and so I am wondering if you can talk more about what you've learned about your own gender and your own beliefs about gender through that experience.

Pramila: Oh my gosh, it's been so amazing and Janak is my 23-year-old who's just phenomenal. And I've just learned so much about -- you know I grew up at a time when it was pretty binary right? Like you didn't necessarily think about gender in the fluid way that we are smart enough to think about it as today. And even though I was very supportive, very progressive, constantly used to talk to Janak when they were growing up about never -- being sure to never say "if your wife" or anything like that, I used to say partner and he or she. I remember Janak at one point saying to me "Mom, I'm not gay. It's fine. You can just say she."

(31:48)

And then a couple of years later all of that changed and their own sense of their own gender changed. And I have just learned so much about language, about the patterns that we're stuck in, and about the freedom that comes when somebody is really able to embrace every part of their gender, every part of themselves and what that means for your own sense of yourself and the world but also what it means for the creativity that you're able to bring to your own world and to your own community.

And so we talk about so much together. They studied black studies in college and they're also very, very just deeply engaged in the politics of race and specifically anti-blackness and white supremacy. I think the connections between race and class and gender that young people today have is so brilliant and so much further along than what I grew up with and so I just -- I love learning from them every day. You know, just really understanding for me from a mother's perspective, from a really personal perspective, seeing what they've been able to do with their creativity. They're just about to release a solo album which I'm super excited about. I think it's just opened my eyes to all of the ways that we sort of tie people down and tie them to essentially refusing parts of their identity and what a loss that is for the world.

Ann: Was it a difficult decision at all to speak publicly about this? I know different people, different politicians have different ideas about how they want to speak about their family and particularly when a family member has an identity that is stigmatized by large swaths of the country. I'm wondering about how you make those choices about what stays personal and what you talk about in the context of your politics.

(34:05)

Pramila: Yeah. I was not planning to talk about it and I was not planning to talk about it in part because, you know, I was very conscious that this was Janak's identity and I wanted them to lead the conversation. This was not my story to tell; this was their story to tell and I was not going to tell it for them.

And we had talked about it at various times and I had said, you know, "Can I talk about this at some point?" and they had said "Yes but not yet" because they were getting ready to release a first album and they really wanted to talk about it in the context of that release. And so I wasn't planning to talk about it and then I was sitting there in the hearing and just getting so angry, boiling mad, about the things that my Republican colleagues were saying particularly about trans folks and non-binary folks. I just was -- this was my kid and so many kids like that, so many people like that across the country, I was just getting angrier and angrier.

And so I texted Janak and I said "Hey, this is what's happening. I'm so angry. I'm wondering if I can talk about you in this hearing." And then I immediately felt bad for putting that kind of pressure on them and I texted them back right away and said "Don't worry about it. You know, I'm not going to do it. We can talk about when to do it." And they texted me in a very thoughtful way as they always are and said "Will it help other people?" It was just one question, will it help other people? And I said I think it would. And they said "Well tell it." They said "I'd rather have it come up naturally than do some big staged thing anyway so just tell it."

(36:00)

And I was so nervous to get it right, you know, that I kind of wrote some notes on a piece of paper and I just felt this rush of emotion and I was like oh no, I'm going to have tears in my eyes and I certainly did. But I just decided to just try to do it with everything that I had and to make it important for other people to see themselves recognized in Janak's story. And I'm so grateful to Janak for allowing me to share it and I sent them many of the messages that I got, which I still get -- I still get people coming up to me in airports sometimes and saying "I saw you talk about your kid and I just wanted to tell you how much it meant to me either as a mother or parent or as somebody myself who never thought I would hear a member of Congress use the they/them pronouns and recognize my existence." It's been amazing but you do have to think about when you want to make something personal but I also think those personal stories are part of what show authenticity and connect you to people and make people want to watch what happens in Congress and make it real for them that we're talking about these issues that really affect your lives and it matters for you to follow what's happening in these community hearings and in Congress in general.

Aminatou: I love that. You know it seems like the pandemic has completely erased immigration reform as a crucial issue even though so many people right now are sitting in detention and so many families are really deeply impacted by this. How do you see the prospects of fixing the broken immigration system given the cards that we've been dealt right now?

Pramila: We have to, and you know this is my passion -- I've been arrested three times for civil disobedience, non-violent civil disobedience, leading immigration reform protests, and we have allowed immigrants to become a political football by refusing to fix the system.

(38:05)

And so I think that that has become more clear under this president than ever before and things that I was fighting for after 9/11, anti-Islamophobia, anti-Muslim sentiment, anti-immigrant sentiment, it wasn't all that popular back then even within some of the Democratic Party and I think that's changed. I think Trump has really made you choose what side are you going to be on here?

And so we passed the most progressive Dream and Promise Act that we've ever had out of the house with almost every single Democrat voting for it which I worked on that and it was a huge deal. We also passed a really progressive ag jobs bill that would protect farm workers and we have the Reuniting Families Act which we passed that would be around reforming the family migration system. These are all bills we passed in a Democratic house and we still have more. We have My Dignity for Detained Immigrants Bill which I really want -- you know, it has over 150, 170 I think cosponsors now. We're going to continue to work on that.

So I think we have a real shot of passing some really progressive immigration reform. It's not going to get us everything we want but I do think that we could immediately under a Biden/Harris administration pass the Dream and Promise Act and the ag jobs bill and that would probably legalize around seven million workers immediately. And then if we added a few other bills on there we would do significant good for immigrants and I think that there's a real commitment to that from the party.

(39:48)

I also think that my National Domestic Workers bill of rights which is not an immigration bill per se but it is a civil rights bill, it's a domestic workers bill, and it protects immigrant domestic workers, that is a bill I introduced with actually Kamala Harris and Joe Biden has said he'll sign it into law. This is a bill that would be huge. It is a really, really phenomenal bill that we crafted with domestic workers from across the country that would give worker rights protections and civil rights protections and immigrant protections to millions of domestic workers across the country.

And so I think those are all things we can do quickly and then we've got to do the rest of it as well which has to do with reforming -- enforcement reforming a corrupt Department of Homeland Security. Many of those pieces that we've seen, reforming the border issues, getting rid of Remain in Mexico and these other stupid policies that have been put in place that are just so cruel and really undermine our values as human beings and as a country.

Ann: We are almost, almost out of time for this interview and so we have a few kind of lighter questions that we like to ask all of our guests and we're hoping we can do maybe a lightning round and have you answer some of that.

Pramila: Sure.

Ann: First question is how have you been caring for yourself in the pandemic?

Pramila: I take walks and I really have invested in my skincare. [Laughter]

Ann: Do you want to shout-out a product or is that not something that a sitting member of Congress should be doing? I don't know.

Pramila: I don't know, I'm probably not supposed to do it but I love the Luzern night line. It's kind of pricey but I've definitely splurged and given myself some of those products for night. I don't know, it's really calming for me to just clean my face and feel really good at night when I go to sleep and then my walks are just super important to me because it grounds me outside and in nature and keeps me physical at a time when I'm just on Zoom call after Zoom call.

Aminatou: What's your current favorite snack? Or all-time favorite snack, whichever one.

(42:05)

Pramila: All-time favorite snack? I have two. One is this spicy Indian thing which we call mixture (?) which is a bunch of little fried things that are really, really good and bad for you but good for you. And then also cheese puffs, I love cheese puffs.

Ann: Ugh, love a cheese puff. So the tagline of our show is A Podcast For Long-Distance Besties Everywhere. Do you have a friend who you are physically separated from now who you want to say hi to or shout out?

Pramila: I do. I want to say hi to my bestie Alia Gupta who is just everything to me as far as a girlfriend goes and really, really close, also kind of like a mother to my kids. We talk all the time but we don't get to see each other and so hi Alia.

Aminatou: How long have you guys known each other?

Pramila: We have known each other for a long time because our parents actually knew each other in India.

Aminatou: Wow.

Pramila: And they tried to connect us and we were like rolling our eyes because you know how parents try to connect you with kids of their friends and you're like oh god, I'm going to have nothing in common with this person. And then we finally met in 1998 or -- yeah, 1997. Actually, yeah, the year that Janak was born and we just kind of fell in love with each other and our families have grown up together. Our kids have grown up together. We do family Zoom calls together every Saturday and her kids are like my kids and vice-versa. Our spouses, we're all just very, very close so they're like family but she is my -- she's also just my best friend.

Aminatou: Ugh, shout-out to Alia. I'm so verklempt now. [Laughter]

(43:54)

Pramila: She's also by the way helped me on -- she helped me start my immigrant rights organization. She's been right there with me on every movement for justice as well and is a super activist herself so that's also part of who she is.

Aminatou: Aww yes, the best. Are you watching or reading anything right now that you would recommend or that's bringing you a lot of joy?

Pramila: Well I just finished Girl, Woman, Other which I loved and I am reading a book now and I'm going to forget the author's name but it's called Latitudes of Longing and it's a novel by an Indian writer and it's just beautifully written. I'm about halfway through, really wonderful. And then I usually keep a non-fiction book as well and I just finished the How to Do Nothing.

Aminatou: Jenny Odell.

Pramila: Jenny Odell. I loved it.

Ann: Yeah, we love that book too. She has also been a guest on this show, yeah.

Pramila: Oh! Shout-out to Jenny Odell. I just sent it to my kiddo because Janak lives in Oakland and I was like you've got to go to the Rose Garden.

Aminatou: So good. Here's my secret question I want to ask every congressmember that comes on the show but I know they would never answer it is who is your least-favorite coworker? Who is your worst colleague in Congress? You can text us and we'll tell nobody but I think about this every time someone from Congress comes on the show, I'm like please be real with me but I know that you are a consummate professional and would never do it.

Pramila: [Laughs]

Ann: Are you trying to gain blackmail material on a member of Congress? Is that what's going on? [Laughs]

Aminatou: Not blackmail material.

Pramila: I promise I will text it to you but you can never use it.

Aminatou: Thank you! It's just that when that one was still in Congress, that one who looked like Draco Malfoy.

Ann: I know who you're talking about. Ahem. Tray Gowdy.

Aminatou: Yeah, I'm like he is . . . every time I saw him I was like he has to be everyone's least-favorite colleague, even Republicans. I just knew it and I wish I could have . . .

Pramila: Well let's put it this way: there are a fair number of people to compete with so . . . [Laughter] Hey but at least I called out, you know, when somebody says my name wrong I'm like okay if you're going to slam my city then at least get my name right.

(46:12)

Ann: The minimum right?

Pramila: Those are my Republican colleagues that you've got to take on all the time.

Aminatou: Men are . . . well it was so nice to speak with you today. We hope you have a wonderful walk and that your weekend goes really well. Thank you for coming on CYG.

Pramila: Thank you both so much. You are both brilliant and really do such wonderful podcasts so thank you for that and thank you for staying engaged and keeping people engaged.

Ann: Thank you congresswoman.

[Interview Ends]

Ann: You know I love it when we get to talk to someone whose viral congress clips we have enjoyed and they are just as great in person. How satisfying.

Aminatou: I know!

Ann: Now let's just end while we're on a high note. We'll see you on the Internet.

Aminatou: Bye boo! You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.