Breakdowns: Summer of Friendship #7
8/14/20 - Difficult patches, communication breakdowns, and periods of estrangement are part of a LOT of important relationships, and friendships are no exception. We discuss our breakdown and why we had to go to therapy to start fixing it. And therapist Miriam Kirmayer shares tips for navigating conflict in friendship.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
HARDCOVER
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NEW ZEALAND
TRANSCRIPT: BREAKDOWNS: SUMMER OF FRIENDSHIP #7
[Ads]
(0:55)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance big friendships everywhere.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Whew, whew, the intro. So bumpy over there.
Ann: Gotta use our own nomenclature, you know? I've been thinking about it since I say that line every week and we've been talking about how terms like bestie are not really the kind of like adult emotionally mature label that we want to apply to friendships like ours and I was like you know, maybe we need to be the change. [Laughter]
Aminatou: Be the change. Be the change. A podcast for long-distance adult friends everywhere.
Ann: I mean that sounds sexy, yeah. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, let's talk about it at the next CYG meeting, the re-brand. I'm here for that.
Ann: Oh my god, the tagline update. You know we could stand for a tagline update after six-and-a-half years.
Aminatou: Oh we can stand for a lot of updates after six-and-a-half years.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: But like I said let's talk about it at the meeting.
Ann: [Sighs] What are we talking about today?
Aminatou: Well today, Ann, we are talking about difficult patches, communication breakdowns, periods of estrangement, and how they're all part of a lot of very important relationships and friendship is no exception to that.
Ann: The friendship breakups episode in other words, like the path not taken for our own friendship and for many friendships that are still going strong today you had to actually choose at one point that you still wanted to be in it even though it was hard.
[Theme Song]
(2:58)
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean let's talk about our own breakdown then because as we have written about and talked about our friendship ended up taking us to therapy which it still sounds very weird to say. It's so weird to say out loud even though I'm like it's a thing that we did and I have no shame about doing it but it does sound very strange. But, you know, it's like maybe let's talk about how things got bad for us, why we decided to go to therapy, and really how do you start to find a therapist for this if that's what you're interested in?
Ann: Well it all started when you stole my card and took it on a high-speed chase and wrecked it then denied that ever happened.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I'm sorry that that is the most farfetched, like of all the crimes I could commit against you I love that this is where your imagination went. Thank you. You take care of me even in malicious, invented moments so thank you. That is beautiful.
(3:55)
Ann: I was trying to think of . . . we often say that it would've been easier to talk about the bad patch of our friendship if there were a catalyzing incident and the default we go to is somebody slept with someone else's partner or something like that. But I was like no, no, let's be more cinematic about this. What could've happened?
Aminatou: Wow. I stole the Honda. I stole the Honda before you were able to say goodbye to her in that beautiful photo shoot and crashed. That would've been -- wow. Wow.
Ann: Wow. Right, you really knew how to twist the knife, you know?
Aminatou: Yeah, that just . . . I just scared myself so let's never . . . [Laughs]
Ann: But you know it is very telling that it is so much easier to talk about an invented, dramatic '80s action movie kind of sleight than it is to describe what actually happened between the two of us.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know? I mean what happened between the two of us, you know, I think on one hand you can really say "Oh, we were growing apart." But even that is a little too simple and is also not true.
Ann: Or it's such a big euphemism to not be helpful.
Aminatou: Yeah. I think it's fair to say that there were a lot of small things that happened like, you know, an incident at this vacation that we went on, Desert Ladies that we write about, and a couple of smaller miscommunication around that and after that that just created an atmosphere of trusting each other less, you know? Because I think that what is true is if something happens where one of you doesn't feel good and you don't actually talk about it and put it to bed in a way that is true and healthy it just stays in the back of at least one person's mind and it informs every way that you communicate moving forward.
(5:45)
Ann: It was really helpful to sit down and try to lay this all out in a book because even trying to explain it to a mental health professional she was more concerned in terms of emotionally what was happening between us and it was really being forced to tell it in concrete terms, like words we both chose, that it really became clear that it was like oh this is just us missing each other in all of these little ways. It was not actually that somehow there had been a big thing that we missed, you know what I mean? Like I think for a long time it was like oh, what is the big thing I'm just not seeing here? And actually it was more the reality was what are all the many little things that we are both not seeing?
Aminatou: Right, what are the little things that you're not seeing? And also just how because we didn't talk about so many of these small things both of us just started making assumptions, you know? And you let past decisions inform future outcomes which is always a recipe for disaster. And I think it's also true to say that because there was not a lot of trust around some big things the universe of things that we were talking about just became really, really small.
You know, like a very good example of this for example is if in a three-person friend triangle or whatever where you're both friends with someone that one of you has friendship strife with one response that you can have is just to be like okay, we're just never going to talk about that thing because it's awkward now. And we had dozens and dozens of those things. And for two people who work together and we have to talk to each other for this podcast the list of things that we were not letting each other talk to each other about which is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger at some point just becomes untenable.
Ann: Yeah. It was like this unintentional categorical sorting of all the things that were happening in our lives like can talk about it, can't talk about it. Can address, hmm, won't even consider addressing it. You know? And I think that we both separately -- usually not in the same moment -- had this feeling of okay, actually I am noticing how many things I'm not talking about and I'm going to say something that's really high-level like I know things aren't great right now. I feel like we both use that phrase in email or texts without actually naming here's what I am not talking about or here are the questions I have about what is happening with us or here are the ways that I'm feeling or here are the ways that I think I've tried to reach out to you. I don't know if you received it like that. You know, we didn't send specific communication like that. We just occasionally would send a well-intentioned wave essentially to each other and it turns out that it's really impossible to fix a friendship if you are not able to start to get into the specifics.
(8:30)
Aminatou: Yeah, that seems accurate and fair.
Ann: And so yeah, it's interesting now having done a bunch of interviews about the fact that we went to therapy together. I think that I would be interested in your thoughts on this. I think I had the impression before the book came out that we would do these interviews where people would be like "So, you went to therapy together?" and that would be the headline. They would be really, really interested in that. And it's kind of telling I think that that question has come up in a lot of the interviews but it has not really been the headline or the big number one shocker. I think, I don't know, I've been surprised by that a little bit.
Aminatou: Yeah, I think I've been a little surprised by that but also I think that if anything it just makes me question my own assumptions of like oh yeah, this is a thing that was really hard for me to process and talk about and so it had an outsized meaning to me and the rest of the world is like "Okay, great. You've tried to repair your relationship. Nothing special about that, move on." Such a good reminder of you can really work yourself into a frenzy over things that other people just don't care about as much as you do so I love that.
(9:40)
Ann: Or right, the stakes never feel as high from the outside. Like for us this was such a huge, high stakes thing that happened to us and it's impossible to convey sometimes. Like someone else is not going to be like "You did what?" because they are just not invested at the emotional level that we are in each other. Yeah.
Aminatou: Right. Right, right, right. I love that though and I think that you're right about the stakes being high but here's the other thing: you can always lower the stakes and that is a very helpful reminder for me.
Ann: Say more about what you mean by that.
Aminatou: In the sense that everything doesn't have to have a heightened sense of drama or emotion in this way and I think that speaking only for myself inside of this friendship I think that I often have the experience of I am being intensely dramatic right now. This is too much. I have emoted so much. Just I'm doing too much and really the only thing that I did was just to state very clearly what I was feeling. And it's like a good reminder for myself of like okay, one, I'm not the person who decides what the standard of too much emotions is, one. That's just not fair. But also everything does not have to be heighted conflict, like you can really just de-escalate every single time and so I'm just reminding myself to choose de-escalation instead of escalation. And emotionally it feels good.
Ann: I love that. It's also so helpful to hear that. I obviously have a very different way of being in the world than you do, like we are very different people emotionally, which has always been our answer when people are like "What's the number one thing you learned in therapy together?" We're like "Uh, we learned that we're different." [Laughter] That is like we learned that we literally are different people. For me I don't know that that model of like oh, it feels really heightened and I can choose to de-escalate is something that would ever come into my mind when I'm feeling upset about something. I actually feel . . . I'm trying to think about what would be an equivalent type experience I have. Maybe more of a forensic examination of like okay, things aren't good with us right now. What did I do or say wrong? How do I figure that out without actually talking to the person because I'm ashamed at maybe having done something wrong and I don't want to ask them directly, but how can I figure it out on my own? Like what I did and account for it. It's an experience I think I have had.
(12:10)
And part of the loneliness. I mean we both have talked a lot about the loneliness we felt at this phase of our friendship but part of it was that too of, you know, it's emotional CSI on your own is not fine. It's really not fine.
Aminatou: Don't do it. Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. There's a reason it's a team. [Laughter] Yeah, you know, but this is actually very good because we started off joking about the fact that we are different. But I think accounting for a difference in just how you deal with conflict actually is huge, you know? And so hearing you say that now that we have been through the process of therapy together, that doesn't scare me. In the beginning of our relationship if we had known this -- if I had known the reason Ann doesn't say anything when something doesn't feel good is not because she is gas-lighting me, it is because she is dealing with her own internalized shame about what is happening in the moment, we would've been in a very different place.
Ann: Right. Ugh.
Aminatou: You know, so that . . .
Ann: That just brings me -- I just want to cry for our past selves. When you say that I really just feel this wave of sadness that we did not have this info earlier, you know?
Aminatou: Yeah, you don't have this info earlier. And I mean it would be really nice when you enter into any kind of intimate relationship with people to just frontload the work and be like okay, here's how I want to be talked to. Here's how I want to be treated when our relationship is bad. Here's how I want this to go or whatever. And I do think to some extent you can kind of do that, like a lot of healthy relationships are based on that kind of information, but it is also true that you are people who change and grow and so even things that were true at the beginning of your relationship are not true in the middle or down the line in your relationship. But also I think it's one thing to be able to talk about this stuff and it is very different to experience it, you know?
(14:00)
And so I think that part of the work that I am trying to do for myself is to instead of assuming intentions from people including gas-lighting, it's to ask them very clearly what is going on and really trying to extend to people the same benefit of the doubt that they are extending to me. Because it sounds really simple to say like yeah, we're different people but truly we are different people. Every way in which we are in the world is very fundamentally different and that is something that has to be accounted for at every step of the way.
Ann: Yeah. You know, even just talking about the idea that this is a conversation that two adults in any kind of intimate relationship can have upfront, that's true but it is just so not modeled in friendship, you know? It might be acceptable to say like "Okay, we need to really have a conversation about the ways in which we both handle conflict" if you are about to get married to someone or whatever. I say this as the child of Catholic engagement counselor parents, right? I'm shaking my head at myself for even invoking that.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: But I will say that like the idea that -- you're right, it's very hard to do upfront and it is fully not expected in friendship because friendships build slowly. You know, day one how weird would it be if I was like "I love Gossip Girl too. Here's what kind of emotional processor I am." [Laughter] Like no, it's not even conceivable you know?
Aminatou: [Sighs] It's not but yet here I want it. You're still right about the fact that this kind of framework is available in other relationships, like I too am no stronger to the Christian counseling model of, you know, how you get married or whatever. But I really wish that we created opportunities and really just scripts for how you do that with friends because learning about that in low-stakes moments makes the stakes not seem as high when you're going through something that's rough.
(16:05)
You know, part of why it's so easy to walk away in friendship is this. You're just like oh, we hit a bump in the road. I don't need to be here. I'll make another friend. People don't really say that with "I'll make new parents" or "I'll make a new spouse." [Laughs] I mean I will say that to my spouse but you know what I mean? So it's just -- I just wish that we made it more normal to talk about strife that is possible in any kind of intimate relationship.
Ann: Yeah. And one part about writing this section of the book is we revisited messages that listeners of this podcast had sent us about various ways their friendships were breaking down or had broken down. And it became pretty clear that the difference between us deciding that we were going to do this radical and expensive thing and going to therapy and other friendships that did not survive something like this is that we both wanted to do it. You know, we both had enough knowledge I think at that point that we were really not sure what was happening with the other person. You know, we knew enough to know that we didn't have good info about what was happening with each other. And even if we were not on the same page about exactly what therapy was going to do to our friendship I think that feeling of at least we'll have some more knowledge about the situation was a motivator. And I feel grateful every day that we were aligned in that or we both had our own reasons for wanting to show up to that process.
Aminatou: Whew, thank god. Thank goddess.
Ann: Well let me tell you the great news is that we have an expert guest this week so we do not have to be the experts on this because goddess knows we are not.
Aminatou: Oh my god, we are not even experts on being ourselves. No thank you. Do you want to take a break?
Ann: Let's take a quick break.
[Ads]
(20:15)
Ann: Our guest is an expert who we consulted when we were writing the book and she graciously agreed to talk to us again for this episode because she had a lot of good insights on what is maybe at play when a friendship is not going well or when a friendship has ended. Dr. Miriam Kirmayer is a clinical psychologist, writer, speaker, and relationship expert and she has spent the last decade studying adult friendships so she is really as close as we could find to a therapist who bills themselves as dealing with issues related to friendship. There are really not that many of them. Okay, so here's Dr. Kirmayer.
[Interview Starts]
Ann: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend, Miriam.
Dr. Kirmayer: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Ann: So I wonder if you could start off by talking a bit about how friendship and particularly struggles or strife within friendship present themselves to you and your therapy practice?
Dr. Kirmayer: So there are a number of reasons why people seek therapy for interpersonal difficulties or difficulties in their relationships and I will say that my therapy practice is not specific to friendships the same way my other work is in terms of a lot of the writing and consulting work and speaking work that I do but there is a lot of friendship-related content that comes up with my clients and our conversations. So it's interesting to see the different ways that our friendships show up in our lives and the different types of difficulties and dynamics that can develop.
(21:45)
So for some people a lot of the heartache or difficulty comes from feeling lonely and we tend to think of that as difficulty making new friends. Meeting new people, connecting with new people. An so certainly that's one reason why people will often seek help is wanting to build those connections and wanting to find ways to approach people and embrace the kind of vulnerability that's needed for making friends and work on kind of the assertiveness piece that's needed there. But I also see, and I think we're learning more and more, that loneliness isn't directly related to the number of friends that we have. And so people can often list off any number of close friendships but they can still experience a certain type of emotional loneliness where there isn't necessarily the intimacy that they like to see in their friendships where they don't feel like they can embrace their true selves, where they don't feel like they can open up about some of the struggles that they're going through or on the other side even some of the exciting things that are going on in their lives.
So that's kind of one branch of it. The other piece though is obviously struggling with friendship conflict and so I work with a lot of clients who are going through difficulties in their friendships. Whether that is on conflict or arguments or growing apart or needing to know how to navigate the end of a friendship and so it can present itself in many different ways.
Ann: And what are some of the questions that you . . . I know this is asking you to generalize in a big way but I think one thing Amina and I have struggled with at various points in our friendship is this sense of am I reading this correctly? Are we both feeling this strife? I don't know. There's a lot of things that happen in the minds of the individuals in a friendship that are not always spoken out loud and I'm wondering about some of the questions you ask people or prompts you give them to start to try to figure out what they need to vocalize to a friend.
Dr. Kirmayer: Yeah, this is such an interesting take on it because we all tend to mind read from time-to-time. We all assume we know what somebody else is thinking and this can obviously happen with strangers or acquaintances but it's really interesting when it shows up in our closer relationships like our friendships because when we have a little bit of insight into the way our friends think and feel it's very easy to generalize that and assume that we know what they are thinking or experiencing all of the time.
(24:05)
And so it's very true that those kinds of experiences can then lead to conflict when we're incorrectly assuming what a friend is experiencing or just wanting to check whether we're on the same page. I would say the biggest thing that I encourage my clients to question is kind of what I just said, is it possible that we're making assumptions here? Is it possible that we're assuming we know what a friend is thinking? Have you actually communicated what your guess is to them? Have you taken the time to check in and say "Hey look, here's how I'm experiencing this. I also notice -- I'm assuming you're experiencing this in a similar way. Is that true? What is that exactly like for you?" Those kinds of clarifying questions can really help us to navigate certain conflicts and situations and not just navigate them but actually build a certain level of intimacy and closeness.
Ann: Hmm. And on that front about building I think it's really interesting that you say that because one thing that we have been really confronted with in working on this book is I think there's an assumption with friendship especially that if it's not just working it's not worth it. And that's an assumption that we don't really expand to romantic relationships. I think people kind of expect that in a long-term romantic partnership you're going to go through ups and downs and you're going to have to figure out how to get back on the same page once you've drifted apart and maybe disagree.
But for us the assumption with friendship I think has always been if it gets hard that means it's not serving you anymore. And I'm wondering about some of those boundaries and how and whether the criteria we apply to other intimate relationships about whether we double down or walk away, do those same criteria apply maybe to a close friendship?
(25:55)
Dr. Kirmayer: Yeah, so this is such an interesting question because it really touches on not just the assumptions that we make in our individual friendships or at the individual level but about friendships in the broader sense. And I tend to agree with a lot of what you said that there is this overarching idea that our friendships, particularly our friendships as adults, should be easy. And what I mean by that is the expectation that first we should've learned how to make and keep friends as children or teens and that the same rules that we lived by during those years apply in adulthood and that we should just have it figured out. And obviously that's not the case for many, many people and we can obviously talk more about that too in terms of what the consequences of that way of thinking is.
But the other piece of this is the assumption that friendships should not involve any kind of conflict or heartache and that the minute that shows up it says something about our relationship with our friend and we often interpret that to mean okay, this is no longer a friendship that's working or this is an unhealthy friendship or even labels like this is a toxic friendship which gets spoken about a lot. And we tend to check out often. We just decide that this isn't worth it.
And I encourage my clients certainly, and a lot of the people that I work with in this space, to really push back on those ideas because I've said this before: it's not the absence of conflict that makes a friendship close; it's how we use that to bring us actually closer together and how we work together to overcome the obstacles that inevitably show up in these relationships.
Ann: Oh my god, you're blowing my mind. The idea of conflict being present as actually potentially a hallmark or opportunity of a friendship becoming stronger.
Dr. Kirmayer: Yeah. I mean it's kind of counter-intuitive to the way we think about it. And of course there are exceptions to this. You know, if a friend has really betrayed our trust and it's shattered irreparably or if a friend is really violating our values or boundaries and this is happening repeatedly those are different kinds of conversations.
(27:55)
But I do think there's something to be said for re-framing the way we look at conflict and the more we can see it as somewhat normative and as you said an opportunity the easier it is to take a step forward and actually engage with our friends in a healthy way.
Ann: Is there a kind of pep talk or a way of thinking that you offer your clients or might offer our listeners if they're listening to this and being like "Oh my gosh, yes, I have been experiencing this conflict or disconnect in my friendship. I've been so scared to bring it up. I'm hearing you and I know that I need to but how do I find the fortitude to do that?" I'm wondering if you have advice for those people.
Dr. Kirmayer: Yeah. I mean my advice at the most basic level is firstly to normalize the experience and that's kind of the goal of a lot of the work I do is just to normalize how challenging our adult friendships can be. And yes of course they're incredibly meaningful and important but they're also really difficult and that's okay. That doesn't say anything about you as a friend or as a person necessarily; it's just a reflection of how difficult these kinds of intimate relationships can be. And sometimes normalizing it can reduce some of the shame that comes with these kinds of challenges which again makes it easier to be vulnerable in the way that's needed to navigate these challenges. Because the second piece is really that I encourage people to invest in their friendships the same way they do their romantic relationships. And so what I mean by that is we talk a lot about the importance of quality time in our romantic partnerships. We talk a lot about the importance of open communication, how that's kind of one of the most important qualities or foundations of romantic relationships in many ways. And the same is true for our friendships.
(29:35)
And once we begin to have those kinds of conversations again it allows us to not just navigate obstacles and to check our assumptions but to ultimately experience more satisfaction in our friendships. And that's what's most important when it comes to our relationships with friends. It's much less about how many friends we have or even how long we've been friends for. It really has everything to do with how satisfied both we and our friends feel in the friendship and that satisfaction ultimately comes from these kinds of discussions and moments of connection.
Ann: Yeah. It's so interesting, that word satisfaction, because we use it in a sexual context a lot.
Dr. Kirmayer: Yeah.
Ann: We use it in a romantic context. I love that as a criteria in a friendship and I wonder what that might feel or look like. I mean I assume it's different for everyone but I'm curious to hear you talk a bit more about that.
Dr. Kirmayer: Sure. So yeah, this is something that's really interesting and it touches on some of the research that I've done in the past where I've studied the different expectations we have for our friends as adults and how we navigate different situations that come up. What I'll say is that on the one hand the expectations that we have for our friends are interestingly pretty stable through our lives. So if you ask children and adolescents what they expect from their friends and you ask adults we see that the expectations are nearly identical. So we expect our friends to be reliable, to show up when they say they will, to return our calls, to not cancel last minute. We expect our friends to be vulnerable. Again I keep coming back to this word but there is the expectation of disclosure or of this emotional intimacy and that's part of what separates our friendships from our acquaintances is that we speak to our friends about things that we wouldn't necessarily share with other people.
The other hallmark of close, healthy friendships is this idea of balance or reciprocity meaning that it's a give-and-take and that is also one of the defining features of friendships compared to other relationships potentially is this idea that there isn't and there shouldn't be a hierarchy of power. That both friends are bringing to the table certain qualities and needs and those should be given equal space in the friendship.
(31:55)
So those kinds of expectations are there across the board and throughout development but what's really interesting is the way those get expressed within the context of our friendships can absolutely differ not just depending on our age but on our different friendships. So we might have certain expectations for example with one friend in terms of how often we speak, the kinds of activities that we do together, how intimate our discussions are, and those rules might be very different for another one of our friendships. And I think that just touches on why this type of open communication is so important because if we don't know the expectations for that particular friendship and if we're violating not just the rules of friendship but the rules of that friendship that's when there can be opportunities for heartache or for pain.
Ann: You made a comment earlier about the ways we learn to maintain friendships maybe as children or teenagers or earlier points in our life when maybe there's different structures at play. And I'm wondering if you have thoughts about the maintenance needs of friendships as we all go about our adult lives and how to maybe figure that out. Because I think one prerequisite for having conversations about expectations in each unique friendship is knowing for yourself what you have come to rely on from that friend and what you need. I think at times when I have personally struggled with whether to continue with a friendship or whether to distance myself from someone it's been because I'm not clear myself on like what I'm getting or what I want to get from that relationship and I'm wondering if you have advice on that front.
Dr. Kirmayer: In terms of clarifying what our needs are in a particular friendship or in terms of how we can maintain . . .
Ann: Yeah, what are some questions I could maybe ask myself to start to figure out what am I getting from this friendship? Or what do I need from this person that I'm maybe not receiving at the moment?
(33:50)
Dr. Kirmayer: Right, so that's an interesting question. I guess where it brings me in my mind is firstly this reality that especially as adults we can have different friendships that each meet different needs. And so this is perhaps partly what distinguishes our adult friendships from those that we had when we were younger where we tend to think much more about the importance of having a best friend or having kind of this very close social network where we had very few friends who would meet most of our friendship needs. As adults that isn't necessarily always the case. So we might have one friend that we turn to when we really need to have those kind of supportive, intimate conversations. We might have another friend that we turn to when we're really looking to try out new activities, spend time with. As our identities and roles change too throughout our lives if we become parents or mothers, if we invest in growing our businesses or entrepreneurship, we might also want friends who can support us in those endeavors and who maybe have similar or complementary experiences.
And so from my end it's helpful to think about what are the different parts of my life that I'd like to share with somebody? Either one of the aspects I'd like help with. What are the parts of my life where it'd be more enjoyable to share this with somebody? And then from there I can think about who in my life meets those specific needs.
Ann: Not everyone has direct access to a therapist who is out front and center about the fact that they deal with issues related to friendship. I know that this was a struggle Amina and I really had. I'm wondering as a professional if you have advice for people who maybe solo or with a friend want a little bit more guidance as they navigate strife in their friendships and how to go about finding a professional who is going to be able to help them.
(35:45)
Dr. Kirmayer: Yeah, so really it can be difficult to navigate the system so-to-speak in terms of finding whether it's the right therapist or person to connect with and support you through this process or even just the resources that are out there. So I'm always very happy to share this kind of information. I do a lot of work through social media in terms of the different kinds of interviews and sharing this content and I'm not able to share personal advice online just because of ethical considerations obviously but I am very keen in making this kind of information and resources accessible and sharing it.
And so some of the different outlets that I often recommend, well first if you're looking to connect with a therapist Psychology Today can be a fantastic resource because you can search not only by geographic region but also by area of expertise. And for the most part I don't believe they have a friendship tab on their website but they do have an ability to search for a therapist who specializes in relationship issues and so that could be a good place to start.
It's also -- we all differ in terms of how open we are about talking about therapy and it can be a good place to start by asking some of your close friends whether they know of anyone or whether they can even ask their therapist to recommend another therapist that they often refer to. So that's an option.
Above and beyond seeking kind of professional support though there are more and more resources coming out in this area. So there are a lot of people who write on this topic more and more. So I have a blog with Psychology Today called Casual to Close and I share a lot of information there for building closer connections, so I always share this information and I'm always happy to if people are looking for these kinds of outlets.
Ann: Thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Dr. Kirmayer: Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure to chat.
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: Ugh, Dr. Kirmayer where have you been my entire friendship life?
Ann: Love an expert. Love to call an expert. This is how you know we are true nerds where we're like you know, there is always someone who knows more than we do about something and she is one of them.
Aminatou: Ugh, I love it. I love it so much.
Ann: Well we have a couple more episodes left in our Summer of Friendship and also if you are eager about the full story about what's happening, what happened with our friendship breakdown and how we fixed it and all of that, it's in the book. There are more words than we would ever have time for in an episode of CYG. You can get Big Friendship wherever you buy books, ideally your local independent bookstore, and you can find all those links and more information at bigfriendship.com.
Aminatou: See you on the Internet boo-boo.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favs. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back, leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf and you can buy our book Big Friendship anywhere you buy books. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We have editorial support from Laura Bertocci. Our producer is Jordan Bailey. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.