The Trapdoor: Summer of Friendship #6
7/31/20 - Race plays out differently in every friendship. And not all interracial relationships involve a Black person and a white person, but ours does.
As Wesley Morris wrote in his memorable review of the forgettable movie Ted 2:
"For people of color, some aspect of friendship with white people involves an awareness that you could be dropped through a trapdoor of racism at any moment, by a slip of the tongue, or at a campus party, or in a legislative campaign. But it’s not always anticipated. You don’t expect the young white man who’s been seated alongside you in a house of worship to take your life because you’re black. Nor do you expect that a movie about an obscene teddy bear would invoke a sexual stereotype forced upon you the way Kunta Kinte was forced to become “Toby.” "
Wesley talked with Aminatou about the trapdoors of interracial friendship, Joe Biden, friend breakups, and yes, Ted 2, in an interview we recorded while writing Big Friendship in 2019.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Wesley Morris is a critic-at-large for The New York Times and the co-host of one of our favorite podcasts, Still Processing.
Pat Parker: For the white person who wants to know how to be my friend
More on Big Friendship at BigFriendship.com.
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TRANSCRIPT: THE TRAPDOOR
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman.
Ann: Hello Aminatou Sow. In these troubled times, in this strange moment, in these difficult days.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You sound like every website I'm trying to buy clothes on, "Due to COVID-19." [Laughs]
Ann: Also literally every email. I feel like every professional email has some equivalent of that and it's like "Uh, are you talking about the pandemic? Are you talking about the fact some people only started talking about race right now? Are you talking about both of those things? What's happening?" [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, it's hard to tell which one is due to COVID-19 and which one is due to racism.
Ann: Yeah. "Due to rampant and not at all new racism."
Aminatou: Whew, whew, whew. Today we are not going to talk about COVID-19 but we are going to talk about race right?
Ann: Yeah. I mean, you know, in a way that maybe is a little bit more pointed than we frequently are talking about race. This is going to be a race episode (TM) which was not planned to coincide with these difficult times necessarily. But yeah, definitely. Race.
[Theme Song]
(1:50)
Aminatou: I mean guess what? If you are an awake person in this country, you know, race has always been happening so it is not new to summer 2020 specifically.
Ann: Ugh, yes. And, you know, if you listened to last week's episode about stretching in friendship that is a metaphor that is helpful for a lot of challenges that can crop up between pairs of friends. But we also write about race outside the context of that chapter in our book in part because while it is challenging and it does sort of require certain types of effort and vulnerability it is not the same thing as other stretches that exist within friendships. I know we're joking about the in these unprecedented race times framing but a lot of times when we get asked about this chapter of the book about interracial friendship people are framing it in terms of, air quotes, "this moment." And I think it is very important to us to not frame it as in or of a moment.
Aminatou: Right. If it's a new moment for you, welcome. It's nice to have you here. Take a seat. Some of us have been here for a long time.
Ann: Right, and also heads-up it's not a moment. [Laughter]
Aminatou: I mean that is the truth no one wants to talk about. Whoosa.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: A long time ago you and I fell in love with this really a review of the movie Ted 2. [Laughter]
Ann: That is not where I thought that sentence was going.
Aminatou: That is exactly where that sentence is going. You and I I believe have seen Ted and Ted 2 more than is legally required to see.
Ann: Ugh, which is to say at least once.
Aminatou: But today's guest on the podcast, Wesley Morris, who is a cultural critic and just an amazing human being wrote this really incisive review of Ted 2 back in 2015 I believe. And in the review there contained this beautiful nugget of information that I remember imprinted on us a long time ago and then has really been like the foundation of the chapter that we wrote about race in our book.
(4:15)
And so Wesley invokes this image of the trapdoor of racism which maybe I'll just read. I'll just read the review or this point in the review because it's better. Okay. Please remember this is a review about a movie about a psychotic teddy bear.
Ann: And Mark Wahlberg right?
Aminatou: And Mark Wahlberg. It's so racist is what you need to know. But anyway, "For people of color some aspect of friendship with white people involves an awareness that you could be dropped through a trapdoor of racism at any moment by the slip of a tongue or at a campus party or in a legislative campaign. But it is not always anticipated. You don't expect the young white man who's been seated alongside you in a house of worship to take your life because you're black nor do you expect that a movie about an obscene teddy bear would invoke a sexual stereotype forced upon you the way Kunta Kinte was forced to become Toby." So that's the context that you need to know about the trapdoor of racism.
Ann: Hmm. And I think one reason this metaphor has always really stayed with me is because it is so visceral, you know? I think that that feeling of having your feet firmly planted on the ground and that feeling of security and safety and then thinking about what happens when that's like -- [blows air] whisked out from under you -- something about that, the fact that it is a feeling metaphor and not a visual metaphor has always been for me part of its power and part of why it has stuck with me so much.
(5:50)
Aminatou: I mean it's also just perfect. You know, it's like racism as ACME cartoon truly, you know? [Laughter] You're like I'm just here to watch the obscene teddy bear movie. I did not expect for racism to happen and now I have to contend with it. Which I think if you like me are a black person who knows white people intimately that is a very recognizable kind of feeling. You're like I'm just here to be myself, I'm just here for the party, and the next thing you know, whoof, the door opens and here we are.
Ann: Yeah. And on the flip side of that I definitely think white people and certainly white people in interracial friendships are afflicted by this I'm just here to be who I am feeling with very different results right? Like hey, I'm just me and I don't actually have to be on the lookout for things that might be making my friend who isn't white feel uncomfortable. Or I don't need to be watching like a hawk for the ways that pervasive racism is going to creep into this situation because I can just be me and my friend can just be her and we can just be friends in the specificity and beautiful bliss of this friendship. And guess what? Not possible. [Laughs]
And I don't know, the process of writing this chapter in some ways paralleled writing the rest of the book where we really had to come up with some terminology. We obviously credit Wesley with the trapdoor but there are some other things that have come up with our relationship and the way we relate to each other through this kind of prism of race that we needed other language for. Because guess what? There is not a huge body of work about interracial friendship.
Aminatou: There is not. So I'm finding it all really fascinating especially because we've talked about this on other interviews, you know? But you and I I think have a good understanding now of how race is playing out in our friendship but I think that in the podcast we never really address the fact that also race dynamics are at play with the audience.
Ann: Ugh, completely. Completely. And you know, the audience for everything we do, this chapter was excerpted by The Cut so if you have not yet committed to the book and want to check it out you can find it at thecut.com. But in an extremely telling example of the ways that our work is received differently because of our race after that excerpt ran I really received crickets. You know, like nothing. Maybe a couple of emails that were like "Hey, I'm white and this was helpful for me" or like "Hey, shared this with a friend." But you received like an absolutely disgusting hateful deluge. It really could not be starker.
(8:40)
Aminatou: I mean yeah, it's like that's the reality of my life in writing. It's the reality of my life with a lot of people who listen to this show as well. And, you know, it's like one of those things I'm like I'm just filing it under the box of things I consider interesting. And I was like that's an interesting data point, like this is . . . this dynamic is really, wow, what a thing.
Ann: Yeah. I want to invoke this Pat Parker poem that we quote in the book that has also come up a lot in conversations that I've had on my own about the book with people in my life and also in our interviews. We'll link to it in the show notes. It's called For the White Person Who Wants to Know How to Be My Friend. And the first two lines are "The first thing you do is to forget that I'm black. Second, you must never forget that I'm black."
I mean really in every situation like this scenario about the feedback we've gotten about this chapter excerpt is a perfect one, you know? Forget that you're black. 100%. The two of us wrote this equally. We are both invested in this. We are collaborators. The specifics of your brain and your ideas and you as a person are all over this. Cool, yes. And then the like you must never forget that I'm black. Right, as we release this into the world the world is not letting us forget that you and I are of two different races as we talk about these issues publicly. And so it is incumbent upon me to also not forget that.
(10:15)
Aminatou: Whew, thank you Pat Parker always. Always.
Ann: For everything. [Laughs] Yeah.
Aminatou: Always for everything Pat Parker, like truly. Well today's episode features an interview with Wesley Morris who is amazing.
Ann: Ugh, Pulitzer Prize winning Wesley Morris.
Aminatou: I know. Pulitzer Prize winning Wesley Morris. Amazing podcast co-host Wesley Morris. Handsome man Wesley Morris. I could just go on and on and on and on about how amazing Wesley is. But this interview also was done over a year ago at this point, right? Definitely last summer.
Ann: Yeah, I mean it was an interview for the book.
Aminatou: Yeah, it was an interview for the book so it's been a minute but it is still very, very, very resonate as you will hear.
[Interview Starts]
Aminatou: Hello Wesley Morris! Thank you for being on Call Your Girlfriend.
Wesley: Thank you for having me. I cannot believe this is happening to me. This is like a dream come true, let me tell you.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Dream bigger, Wesley. Dream bigger. Oh man. Well I really wanted to have you on today because there's so . . . there's so many things I want to talk about but namely I want to talk about one really funny review that you wrote for the movie Ted 2 which unfortunate -- which unfortunately Ann and I have seen probably more than one time.
Wesley: Really?
Aminatou: Oh definitely. Like don't you have this? In the canon of stoner movies you don't need them to be good.
Wesley: [Laughs]
Aminatou: You just need to be like an appropriate amount of high and then there needs to be enough nonsense that happens that your brain feels like it's following along.
Wesley: Yes.
Aminatou: And unfortunately Ted has all of the kind of nonsense, like Ted 1, 2, whatever that franchise does, it has enough of the nonsense that the idle marijuana brain is actually like very happy unfortunately.
(12:05)
Wesley: I can see that. It's about a bear who is basically living in a real world with Mark Wahlberg and I think most of the movie was probably written and/or made with people on some drug.
Aminatou: I mean you have to be stoned to watch a thing with a talking bear in it, are you kidding me?
Wesley: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Aminatou: That's not the Charmin bear. But anyway in the review you wrote about this concept that you call the trapdoor of racism that people of color are dropped into if they are in friendship with white people in general. And it's a thing that Ann and I have glommed onto over the last couple years because we thought that the image was really . . . it was really perfect. For people of color some aspect of friendship with white people involves an awareness that you could be dropped through a trapdoor of racism at any moment by a slip of the tongue or at a campus party or in a legislative campaign. And it's just something that has really, really stuck with us for the last couple of years and I'm just wondering if you could expand on it or talk about it a little bit more.
Wesley: I think that there is a kind of comfort that you as a non-white person can feel around white people, especially when you . . . when they're a part of your life. They're a real significant, meaningful part of your life. There's a comfort that you have in these relationships that is somewhat contingent upon not going there. Now wherever there is [Laughs] is up to . . .
Aminatou: Everybody has their boundary. Right.
Wesley: Everybody has a boundary and wherever your there is is the place where the relationship just kind of tacitly knows not to go. But there will be some incident -- and normally it is a thing that is beyond both parties' control. I'm thinking specifically about like an incident that doesn't involve your white friend but it involves the white friend's friends or the white friend's family or a circumstance in which you're experiencing racism or general unpleasantness that tips into racism and the white friend is kind of like "Uh, I think you non-white friend are overreacting to whatever is happening right now." That's a for example.
(14:25)
And then there's just blatant like "I'm going to say something to you or do something to you that comports perfectly with an entire history of racism." And you in that moment as the person who has been dropped through this figurative trapdoor are kind of -- you know, it's funny because as I'm talking about this in this way I'm also envisioning the sunken place.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yes.
Wesley: As I'm about to say you're looking up at the situation you've been dropped through. I think that what happens is you are now forced to reevaluate your relationship with this person based on an incident that in some cases can seem kind of innocent. I'm thinking a lot right now in this -- and I've been thinking for more than a month about Joe Biden.
Aminatou: Oh man, oh man. Talk about the national trapdoor of racism opening underneath all of us.
Wesley: Yes, yes. And I will say that it isn't -- it isn't in Joe Biden's case like an active actual racism right? Although . . .
Aminatou: Right, like he's not wearing a hood. He's not like a southern like GOP person telling us insane things. But yet here we are.
Wesley: Yeah, yeah. Well it's worse than that in some ways because he is trading on a kind of comfort with black people that is uncomfortable for me. And I think it's uncomfortable for a lot of people and I think the longer this campaign goes on the less comfortable people are going to be with him. He gave a speech, I think it was . . . I don't remember if it was during the 2016 campaign. He says "If you vote for . . ." I'm going to say Trump because I think it was 2016. "If you vote for Trump these people are going to have you in chains!" is how he put it. Do you remember the speech?
(16:15)
Aminatou: [Laughs] I know exactly what you're talking about and I am dying.
Wesley: And I'm just like Joe? Joe Biden? Joe Biden, vice president of the United States of America.
Aminatou: It was in 20 -- it was in 2012 and he was like . . . and Mitt Romney got so mad about it.
Wesley: Yes, yes. Okay, so I am -- I am . . . I knew . . . I knew I was close or close enough.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yeah, no, that was wild. But yeah, he's just like too close. He's too close and he, you know, like Barack Obama he feels like gave him transitive properties to just talk to us all sorts of crazy.
Wesley: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Aminatou: And so this is what happens right? And almost like you hear the excitement in his voice when he says it.
Wesley: Yes.
Aminatou: Like oh, like I know something about you! Like I know a fear about you that you. Maybe it has escaped you. You know, or just like it's like a little too thrilling and sexy and you hear it and you're like what is this nigga talking about?
Wesley: Yes.
Aminatou: This is crazy.
Wesley: Well I would say, you know, the other funny thing about Joe Biden of course is he is an appealing person. He is a person who seems like once you -- well if he isn't holding up your Amtrak train to get on in Wilmington to go to DC he seems otherwise like a potentially wonderful person to spend 20 minutes to 45 minutes with.
And I think that you can kind of get seduced into looking the other way when something like that chain speech happens or when you're like re-presented with his actual voting record on any number of issues, right? So the trapdoor for me isn't -- it isn't just the record, per se, if we're going to move away from the speeches although the speeches are one thing. But just looking at his record, right? If we just focus on what Kamala Harris brought up during that debate, um, in June. Kamala Harris is basically like "Look, I just want to hear right now that you -- that you understand that all the bussing legislation that you voted against," and it wasn't just one thing. He was basically an anti-busser that the entire time anything came through the Senate that he was supposed to support he didn't do it.
(18:30)
But what I would say about his reaction when she asked him very simply, I'm going to misquote what exactly she asked him but basically she was like "Do you think that what you did was wrong? Right now in 2019 can you tell me was it a thing that you are proud of or embarrassed by?" And he wouldn't answer. And he got -- the umbrage he took was like "How dare you bring this up? Barack Obama, Barack Obama, Barack Obama."
Aminatou: I know, I mean he got really -- he got really huffy.
Wesley: Right, yeah.
Aminatou: He got really huffy. He was holding the lectern like it was a flotation device.
Wesley: [Laughs]
Aminatou: It was like, you know . . . but actually like I'm really glad that you bring up those two because the thing that I think made that exchange powerful is that they're a little bit more than colleagues. Like you can tell that there was a personal rapport there.
Wesley: Mm-hmm.
Aminatou: The whole time he was looking at her like he was about to risk it all to be with her because she's so beautiful. He like clearly is into her. You know, like that subtext was there.
Wesley: Yo, yeah.
Aminatou: And clearly they're on very friendly terms. Like I think that if this had just been like political sparring it would've felt a little different.
Wesley: Yeah, that's very perceptive.
Aminatou: But the fact -- the fact that she attacked him, she attacked him on this basis of like "Hey, I like you. We are friendly but like you did a thing that, you know, like forget the politics of it; you hurt me personally," was something that I just -- I thought was really . . . that was the most powerful part of the exchange. And to bring it back into a space of, you know, like in the book we are talking a lot about intimate partner relationship like serious friendships, I think that part of why that metaphor of the trapdoor is so powerful, it's because no matter how long you have known someone, no matter how long you have known a white person, I think that for most people of color -- or at least I can't speak for most people of color but I will say that among the black people that I know there is just this like very palpable understanding that no matter how much you know them, you like know their politics, you know like they've been to your house a million times, they like know your grandma, they've eaten the food at your house, like the whole thing, that there is still a possibility that they're -- like this thing is going to happen between you right?
Wesley: Mm-hmm.
Aminatou: And it just -- and I think that part of it is because, you know, racism really hurts on a personal level but part of it is like well, you know, hello? Here's the problem with systemic oppression, right? Like no matter how well-meaning any of our white friends are they're still part of the system that oppresses us so there's nothing you can do about that, right? It's personal and not-personal at the same time. It doesn't take the sting away but it's just that like -- that knowing sense of danger where you're like I can know this person for a hundred years and yet this moment is the moment to brace for.
Wesley: Mm-hmm. Yep, yep. It isn't even like a thing you brace for; it's so casual! It's so . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs] You're right. You're right. You're right.
Wesley: It isn't even like "I'm about to get hit with a truck." It's like no, you're not going to get hit with a truck. You're going to have a drop of mustard fall on your white pants. It's not even -- it's like a nothing thing, especially to the person who says it. I have a for example. I am friends with a guy, I haven't known him for that long but we . . . he's a white guy, like really great. We're friends. I flew into Chicago where he lives and I had to do some work and we met up and I had mentioned that I was flying over . . . I flew into Midway. And he looked at me and he's like "Oh, you like the south side."
(21:55)
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Wesley: And I'm like well I don't know! I mean yes? But what do you mean? I mean it just had this like DL down and dirty like "Oh, you like the south side."
Aminatou: I can just see the glint in his eye, like a ching.
Wesley: Yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: Like we're on the same page now. We're speaking the same lingo now.
Wesley: I just, I don't know, but I filed it away. I'm like okay, this is a thing to keep in mind for my future engagements with this person. But it's like if he says this and I'm like "Well, you know friend, what are you, uh, what are you trying to imply about the south side and me?" And he's like "Oh, I don't know. Why you got to go there? Why even ask? Like uh, I don't know. I'm just saying you like, uh, you like Midway. I don't know what to say. What do you want me to do?"
Aminatou: You like the south side of Chicago, okay, geographically for . . . [Laughs] Like you're just -- those are the coordinates that you are happy in. Well, you know, like a thing that I've really struggled with in writing this with Ann who . . . who is my white friend, you know, but also like more than a friend is it's really confronted me a lot with my own evolution and my own understanding of, you know, the comfort and discomfort that I feel being in an interracial friendship.
For example something that I am not proud of but is like 100% a part of my life is that I had always thought that if you were going to happen to be friends with white people, not that you needed it but if you were going to be friends with them, that like if there's a scale of racism that's like . . . runs one is like they accidentally call you by another black person's name and ten -- ten is like full-blown Trump nationalism, that if you were going to have white people in your life whether you were dating them or you were friends with them or you were even working with them, that a one or two is just something that you're going to have to deal with.
Wesley: Yes.
(23:52)
Aminatou: Not saying -- like not saying that you had to like, you know, be excited about it but it was like okay, this is something that you should just prepare for and when it happens, you know, you've got to tone down how outraged you are because we knew this is going to be -- this is like this is just part of life.
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: And it's really been a trip getting older and being like you know what? I -- one, no, that is awful. That is like an awful expectation to have. And two, also just, you know, really, really contending with the fact that for me I can call out Twitter -- like if somebody's racist to me on Twitter I call up their job. Somebody is racist to me on the street, I will throw something at them. Like if you are a stranger I can handle myself. But really realizing that where I'm the most disarmed is the closer it gets to home, you know?
Wesley: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Aminatou: Where I'm always like "Oh, what's going on here?" Not saying that I don't have a response but really like okay, this has now introduced awkwardness into our relationship.
Wesley: Yep.
Aminatou: And how do we move? How do you deal with it and then move forward from it? That's something that I'm still wrapping my mind around.
Wesley: Yeah. I think that one of the interesting things is there's always -- not always but I mean there's going to be some discrepancy between your values as a person with a race and . . . you know, if we're talking about white people, certain white people's values with themselves that they carry of people who have a race, right? And I think the more that the person that you're friends with understands that they're white makes it . . . it's just that much easier for you guys to talk about the differences between you when they come up.
And it's not so much that the differences between you have to be race-oriented, right? But at some point if you're . . . I mean if you're a black person in America odds are if you're going to have an intimate relationship with a white person the subject of race is going to come up because you're introducing it. [Laughs]
(25:55)
Aminatou: Right. [Laughs]
Wesley: Like there's going to be a thing that comes up that you want to talk to your friend about. And, you know, if you're lucky you've got a friend who is reasonably conversant or curious or has some feelings about this that are not -- don't even have to align with how you feel but there's a conversation that you guys can have and he understands that you as a black person live in a slightly different America than he or she does.
And I think that if you guys can talk about that you've got a healthy relationship no matter what and you're not dealing with -- the odds of you being dropped through a trapdoor are much lower. I have another friend who has the same name as the friend in the south side example by the way.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Wesley: I'm not going to name the name.
Aminatou: You're friends with all white dudes named Mike? What's up? [Laughs]
Wesley: It's really interesting. But this guy, it's come up a lot over the years but the first inkling that I had that this was going to be a problem if we were going to stay friends was when he really didn't get -- and I know lots of people . . . I know lots of black people have a person in their life of all races really who just didn't get what the big deal with the Trayvon Martin shooting was. Like "Why? What is the big deal? I mean he clearly shouldn't have been in that neighborhood. He was clearly trespassing and George Zimmerman, those are the laws. He was allowed to carry around the gun and shoot this kid. And we don't know what happened and why was he on top of him? Something happened and he probably . . . something probably happened and I think George Zimmerman was just defending himself."
And also setting that aside the verdict is what induced this conversation and the verdict, he's just like "I don't understand. The jury said what it said, case closed. Why are you so upset? Like this has nothing to do with you. It's like this kid probably shouldn't have been in the neighborhood, the jury spoke, he was allowed to do it, it's totally fine. Let's just go have dinner." And I'm like hmm, I don't know if we can have dinner. [Laughs]
(28:00)
Aminatou: Right.
Wesley: I think this is our dinner. I think we're going to eat this conversation right now. So okay, here's my point: if you live in this country. Here's my point with this particular story, if you live in this country I think you have -- no matter what your race is -- I think like in the same way the stupid citizenship form for people who are coming to this country hoping to get a green card or actual citizenship has these stupid trivia night questions about like, you know, "What year was the Declaration of Independence signed?"
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Wesley: No, I need you to tell me what the Wilmot Proviso was. I need you to tell -- tell me about the Dred Scott decision. Because I feel like the history that we get taught in this country is all about trivia night and not about what happens when George Zimmerman gets his verdict. [Laughs] And I don't want to have to give somebody a 400 year history lesson on why this is upsetting to happen again because that person doesn't want a history lesson.
Aminatou: I know.
Wesley: And in a weird way like [Sighs] . . . there's no productive way to say to a person "Let me sit you down and walk you through, I don't know, 272 years of . . ."
Aminatou: Well we're not a racial . . .
Wesley: ". . . of why this moment -- this here moment matters so much to so many people. And what continuum it's on."
Aminatou: Well here's the deal, right? We're not a racial education service right? White people always benefit from having like friends of color.
Wesley: Yes, yes, yes.
Aminatou: And specifically black friends because they get to have a-ha moments about race through knowing us like all the time.
Wesley: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's a great point.
Aminatou: We see -- like we see no such benefit. Like I . . . [Laughs] There is nothing that I have learned about whiteness that I didn't already know.
(29:50)
Wesley: This is a really great point, Amina.
Aminatou: That like a friend -- that a friend has like taught me. Like there's just, you know, I'm like "Sorry, I always listen to Alanis Morrissette." I know y'all have rich white people money that's hidden. Like it's like I already know.
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: Like I don't learn anything but yet they learn a lot from me. So I think, you know, like in thinking about this the reason that I'm bringing it up is because like you said earlier the race always gets introduced by the black friend. And the reason like that irks me now, it's because that is like an assumption that the black friend is the other.
Wesley: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Aminatou: And I was like no, like whiteness -- like whiteness is also a race.
Wesley: It sure is.
Aminatou: Like if you choose to be in all-white spaces that is a racialized space. Like it's not a neutral space. So it's not like they're just driving in neutral, rolling around, and then, you know, like the black friend is the stop sign that you have to like engage for.
Wesley: [Laughs]
Aminatou: It's like no, no, you're already here. Like all white spaces are racialized spaces. And so whether you talk about it or not you guys are also experiencing race. And that is just something where like for me it's become like a huge sticking point where it's like no, I don't have to be the one to introduce race all the time. Like if I'm the one that is constantly doing it in a relationship it's telling me everything I need to know about that relationship now.
Wesley: Yeah, yeah. I was talking to Nicole Hannah Jones about this very subject like a couple months ago and it basically was about the ways in which the presumption of neutrality is 99% of the problem. The room temperature of race in America defaults to white, right?
Aminatou: All the time.
Wesley: So if you go into a restaurant and you're the only black person who comes in, like it isn't a thing -- you walked into a neutral space because the moment you get there neutrality goes out the window right?
Aminatou: No! You walked into like a white supremacist space. [Laughter] That was like doing its thing before you got there.
Wesley: Right. Okay, so you know how I was saying I don't want to give the history lesson every time that I'm about to have a racial fight so that I can catch the person up?
Aminatou: But you have to! You have to! You have to! You always have to. [Laughs]
(31:55)
Wesley: Right. I have to catch the white person up and I have to give them all the tools like here, let me give you all the equipment that you're going to need to basically play this sport with me for the next hour. I'll give you your tennis racket, your baseball bat, your basketball. You've got to get your padding, your helmet. I'm going to give you your goggles. I'm giving it all to you. You put it on. Once you figure out what to do with all that stuff then you can come to me and we can like play racism fight.
But this person needs a head start to be able to like understand why I'm upset. So I feel like the thing that has to happen is you need enough people who don't need me to give them -- or need any black person to give them all the equipment.
Aminatou: But Wesley we don't have to give them the equipment. The equipment is available for free.
Wesley: Right, I know.
Aminatou: The pads have been there. The goggles have been there.
Wesley: I get it.
Aminatou: They could've picked it up.
Wesley: No, I hear you and I'm 100% with you but what I'm saying is I think that to your point it is not incumbent on black people to do that work and it is infrastructurally impossible for black people to do that work because there's a whole history of us trying to do the work and look what we get, right?
Aminatou: Yeah, we don't get elected to governor. [Laughs] We don't get elected to like mayor, like they let us have one president and they're not going to let us have another for 400 years. So like you know what I'm saying?
Wesley: So my point, I just think -- I just feel like there is a way, because I . . . there are white people in my life who are more than equipped and perfectly comfortable saying to like -- to the my friends, my other friends of the world about like the Trayvon Martin case "I don't know what planet you've been living on but this is -- this is how racism works. I as a non-black person can tell you because as a white person I understand my role in perpetuating these problems. And you my friend are a prime example of the perpetuation." I just feel like maybe at some point before we get to that restaurant, Amina, maybe that's what's happening. [Laughs]
(33:55)
Aminatou: I mean I just, you know, the thing about it that's so . . . the Trayvon Martin thing is it's really hitting me in the gut because I'm remembering exactly where I was when that verdict was announced.
Wesley: Yeah me too.
Aminatou: And I was definitely the only black person at this like dinner party. There was a person there that I didn't know was Latino. The whole time I thought he was -- he was white [Laughs] and I think he thinks he was white too.
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: But when the verdict was announced he was the only person to say something to me. Everybody else just carried on. But, you know, it's . . . the thing about -- the thing, like the reason I keep bringing it back to friendship is because like I think that we're all a little bit equipped in some ways or form, like I would say if you're friends with woke white people or whatever, people who think that they're doing the work, we're all equipped to talk about like race as it happens in the news. It's like everybody has something to say about the president. You'll probably if, you know, if -- if like a black person gets shot and it's reported in the news you'll probably get a text message that will irk you depending on how it is constructed.
Wesley: [Laughs]
Aminatou: But the thing -- you know what I mean? But the thing about . . . the thing about it that I keep coming back to is that if we can't talk about like this kind of stuff, the stuff that happens in the news in a constructive way, you like don't trust that when the apocalypse come, and it's coming, that these are the people who are going to fight for you.
Wesley: Oh good lord.
Aminatou: You know what I mean? Like you just see it. You just like see it and you're like oh, I actually cannot . . . like would you hide me in your house? Like probably not.
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: Like because you don't -- you know, I don't need some sort of like apocalypse scenario. We're already living through it right now.
Wesley: Amina.
Aminatou: But the other thing that like if we don't talk about the news well, what does it mean when it's like your white friend that is causing you pain? You know, then we have zero base vocabulary for that. And at the same time I'm like I have white people in my life I love a lot and they're grandmothered in and they're not going anywhere and here we are.
Wesley: Well I mean would you hide me in your house is deep. It's deep right? Like would you . . . would you house me? Like would you . . . what kind of abolitionist would you be? Would you even be an abolitionist?
(36:05)
Aminatou: I mean everything that you're doing right now in the Trump era is what you would do if shit hit the fan even more, you know what I mean? I'm like we literally have children in cages that are still in cages.
Wesley: Yeah, yeah.
Aminatou: Nobody is like freeing them and doing anything for them. And I'm like talk less of me, like a boojie black in Brooklyn so . . .
Wesley: Yeah, I know.
Aminatou: Like what? It's -- it's wild. It's wild. Let's take a break.
Wesley: Can I do something really nuts right now?
Aminatou: Tell me. Tell me. Do your most nuttiest thing ever, here.
Wesley: I want to talk about Ted 2 for a second.
Aminatou: Yes, please, the movie that started it at all.
Wesley: Because I feel like it's really important to like -- I mean to just talk about the way racism works in that movie. Because it doesn't come . . . it comes entirely from a place of foreignness and misunderstanding and presumption and -- and probably over-familiarity in some weird way. But it . . . it does have a racial value system, right? And at the top of the value system is somebody like Tom Brady and at the bottom is any black male carrying a penis and -- and sperm.
And I don't know how at some point if you're not -- if you're a sentient human being, like I mean I'm not saying that Mark Wahlberg necessary is, given all the things we know about Mark Wahlberg, but um . . .
Aminatou: Mark Wahlberg literally bashed like an Asian shopkeeper's head in, um . . . [Laughs] like bashed in an Asian person because of, you know, thinking he was entitled to do that.
Wesley: Yes.
Aminatou: So I feel comfortable saying a lot about Mark Wahlberg.
(38:20)
Wesley: Yes. And as well you should. And I feel like at no point -- I mean did Morgan Freeman who was in Ted 2, did he not see the whole script? Did he -- like was he . . . like what are his feelings about having appeared in the movie? What about Loni Love who plays . . .
Aminatou: Yo, Wesley, I think this all the time whenever black actors do movies like this. All of the time. And I know that that's a -- it's a shitty place to go to but like these people all have money and power, what?
Wesley: Yeah. And so I feel like the way that the racism works in that movie is so unfair because it's all below the belt right? It assumes in some ways that black people don't even exist as a movie-going constituency and then that if they did see it, well that's their problem because we're just making a joke and the joke is not about you as a black person; the joke is about sperm and the Kardashians. I mean there are any number of ways that if you -- if you had like a Wesley and Amina senate hearing where you dragged Seth McFarlane in to defend Ted 2 . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Wesley: Like what would his defense be? If you like laid out the case, if you like Kamala Harris or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez styled or even Jerry Nadler, like if you just laid out -- although I hope not Jerry Nadler. I mean he . . .
Aminatou: I hope not.
Wesley: Oh my god, Jerry.
Aminatou: Well you know what his defense would be though, Wesley?
Wesley: [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know what his defense would be? He would just say that he didn't think you would see it.
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: And now -- and now that you have seen it he is sorry that you saw it but it is already out in the world and the hurt is there. And also there is always a presumption that we can handle it, you know what I mean? It's like if people actually cared about black people's feelings they wouldn't do half of the shit that they did to them. But instead they're like "Oh, you're used to this. It's not as bad as slavery so I guess you can handle it."
(40:10)
Wesley: Well yeah, I mean there's such a trajectory upon which you can -- like a rating system that you can evaluate the harshness of your offense. But I actually . . . I don't know that he would necessarily even say that. I think that it's possible, because whenever you're confronted, whenever I experience a person who has committed one of these offenses, and I think Ted 2, it might be . . . I think it's one of the most appalling movies I've ever seen on the subject of not -- it's not . . . the subject is not race but it involves race in a way that has nothing to do with the movie itself and that's the craziest part, right?
Like this is a movie where like if you took all the race stuff out and all the racism out you'd have the exact same movie. None of it hinges on blackness or black people or race or anything. You'd have the exact same plot, the exact same movie, most of the exact same jokes. But there are so many jokes aimed squarely at black men in particular and like black male sexuality in particular that you begin to learn something about the people who made the movie and what their issues might be with themselves in some way. And, you know . . .
Aminatou: Oof.
Wesley: I'm a person who kind of thinks that Seth McFarlane does have like a sexuality thing that he needs to work out and a lot of that is bound up in his whiteness and his awareness of his whiteness and his sort of low opinion I would say of his whiteness in some ways and his . . . equally like his sort of defensive displacement of that low opinion of his whiteness onto black people.
(42:05)
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
Wesley: And I just . . . I feel like, you know, the movies are great because it's a great space to work out . . . I mean art is a great space to work out all of your issues. But on the other hand my feeling about that is like leave me out of it. If you aren't going to directly involve me in like the working out of your problems, because the movie isn't working this stuff out. It's laughing at it and it's making a problem of the object of your neurosis.
Aminatou: Oof, that's so real. So real. Can I ask you about something else?
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: That is really top-of-mind for me. We have been writing a lot about the subject of friendship breakups.
Wesley: Hmm.
Aminatou: And, you know, friend divorces. We've all had very significant ones. And a thing that happens when you're writing a book about friendship is that you start reexamining all of your own relationships and thinking about oh, that relationship that I -- you know, that person that I said was toxic, like was it actually toxic or was that . . . or was I really just running away from having a hard conversation? Or did I handle -- did I handle some of my breakups well? I'm just wondering if you have anything to say about the topic of like friendships that are broken and, you know, repairing them or holding on to friendships that, you know, like almost completely broke down?
Wesley: Huh. Well I mean I might start crying if I talk about this. Uh, I do . . .
Aminatou: Aww, we also don't have to talk about it if it's hard.
Wesley: No, no, no. It's fine. It's fine. I'm -- I'm pretty much . . . I'm pretty much okay with it. It is just -- it is still mysterious to me. And this is a person who's . . . I mean I've known him since I was 17 years old and he decided about a year -- well he decided two years ago but then like made it official a little bit more than a year ago that we were not going to be friends anymore. And he explained it to me although I don't really understand . . . [Sighs] I don't understand why it happened. But basically he felt like I wasn't a good enough friend to him in a moment where he needed like better friendship.
(44:30)
And I hear that and I apologized for it but it was too late for him, he was done and there was nothing I could say in the like -- the 25 minutes or 35 minutes or whatever that he gave me to defend myself and to like make clear to him that I do love him and he is my friend and, you know, it'll be weird for me to just be friends with your wife and your kids and not with you and how do we negotiate that?
But I think that the breakup -- I think losing him in my life was really hard and there is an element if I'm being totally honest, there is an element of -- of race in our . . . in the demise of our relationship in some ways. I don't think it was explicitly . . . the incident that incited this thinking in this reevaluation that he did about our relationship was not brought on by race necessarily but I think the expectation that he had of me, it was sort of fueled a little bit by his being a white male and my being a black male. And all of the ways in which he has used his white maleness as a key in a lock for me who didn't have a key, you know?
(46:00)
Aminatou: Hmm. Hmm.
Wesley: And I think that there is an understanding that by virtue of his having a key and us being so close that I too had a key that I could've used for him when he needed somebody to unlock some stuff for him. And I don't think of myself as having a key almost for the very reasons we've been talking about in this conversation. We are not a key-having people, black people. We don't have the keys that my friend has.
Aminatou: We have no keys. We have no keys. We merely got copies made recently, some of us.
Wesley: [Laughs]
Aminatou: But, you know, it's not the key that you can take to get copied so . . .
Wesley: No, it's -- this is that master do not copy key.
Aminatou: Right, like that's what we have.
Wesley: This is not the one you take to the hardware store.
Aminatou: That's what we have.
Wesley: This is the one when you take it to the hardware store and try to get it copied they're like "Sir, it clearly says do not duplicate on this key."
Aminatou: That's correct. That's us.
Wesley: So I think that there was this sort of . . . there was this misunderstanding about who I was in relation to him. I mean as a person, as Wesley, and also as a black person. And I don't mean that like I have low self-esteem because I don't, and I don't think -- I just don't comport myself in the way that he comports himself in the wider world. You know, I'm a charismatic person. I have a big personality. I love myself. But I make no assumptions about who I am in relation to anybody else when it comes to what I'm entitled to do.
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
Wesley: I'm more of a rights person not an entitlement person.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Wesley: "Do I have the right to do this?" is separate from can I just do it?
Aminatou: Yeah. Yeah.
(47:50)
Wesley: And I think that that became, when this incident happened, it just exposed this discrepancy in self-perception that I think for him at least was untenable because he assumed that I have a power that he knows infrastructurally -- this is the thing about him -- he knows . . . he knows enough to know that infrastructurally I don't have the power that he has. But I think he thinks that he gave me some of that power by virtue of having him in my life and that I didn't use the power that he gave me to help him was just a bridge too far for him. It was a waste of giving me like a copy of his key.
Aminatou: Do you think that some of it also is because, you know, like friendship is just a relationship where everybody just makes assumptions and there are no natural check-in points. Like if you're . . . if you're dating someone, even if you're both bad communicators.
Wesley: Oh this is a great one, yeah.
Aminatou: At some point -- at some point you have to be like "Well my lease is up, like what are we doing?" Or "Hey, are we seeing other people?" Like there just -- there is a vocabulary for that. There is an entire like set of rules and expectations that just like does not exist in friendship at all. And so when conflict comes you are both confronted with the fact that nobody has ever stated their desire out loud and their wants out loud and you're both completely unmoored.
Wesley: Yep, yep. And yeah, I mean that's a great point. I mean we never -- for a person who . . . I mean we spent so much time together and the idea that we would never have had like a what do you need conversation, like a true what do you need conversation, until it was an emergency, it was just too much. And I think that, you know, if he wants to do the work to try to make things better I am willing to do it. I would love to do it. I would love to have a healthy relationship.
(49:55)
I mean it's funny because Amina I would never have characterized my relationship with this person as unhealthy. I didn't realize it was unhealthy until it was revealed to be that way and I think that, you know, with all my really close friendships there is a moment of reckoning about what kind of individual person you are and then what kind of person you are as an individual in a relationship with another person, right?
And I've had a couple of those and they have been very, very, very important for the rehabilitation of a certain aspect of the friendship and a . . . just a, you know, an understanding that this is what I want to go forward and this is how we should treat each other. This is how I expect to be treated by you. But it isn't really a thing that naturally occurs, right? It's a thing that sometimes circumstances have to make happen.
Aminatou: Yeah, because I mean we're just not taught that that is the way you talk to a friend. It sounds almost loony when I say that to you.
Wesley: [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know, to be like "Hi, what -- hi Wesley, you're my friend. Like what do you want? What do you need? How should I communicate with you? What is your expectation if we have a breakdown with another mutual friend of ours?" Like you know what I mean? Like it sounds very loony but if you are, you know . . . it's because of the ways that we de-value friendship. I'm like these are really important platonic bonds that we have.
You know, Ann and I write about the fact that we go to therapy together, like we go to a couple's counselor, and it's not something that we have told a lot of people until now because it sounds really -- it sounds really like whoa, like you two are so far gone that you need to go to therapy? Why are you even friends? [Laughs]
Wesley: No, but I mean -- no.
Aminatou: And that's not what's going on. It's like no, like we needed help because we are two strong personalities who don't know how to communicate with each other and if we hadn't had that intervention we probably would not be friends today.
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: You know, and just thinking about how there's so little infrastructure for repairing these kinds of bonds, right? Like parents and children, there are like books about that. Couples, there's like also -- there's an entire cottage industry that wants to take your money. But if it's friends you're just allowed to fade away from each other's lives and that to me is really wild.
(52:20)
Wesley: Yeah, I mean Jenna and I -- Jenna Wortham and I talk a lot about just I mean we do a lot of checking in and expectation management and like just, you know, are we happy with . . . I mean not so much explicitly are we happy with each other but how are we feeling and how are we doing? And, you know, I -- it is . . . it is something that is important to her and I have brought that importance into my other relationships.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Wesley: And it's been really, really useful. Like I mean I'm thinking as we're talking who are some people I have to have a check-in conversation with? And there's at least -- there's at least two people who are very important to me that I have to just like, you know, have a "Hey, uh, can I be doing better? Is there anything you need? How do you feel? I'm sorry."
Aminatou: It's a different muscle to flex.
Wesley: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean because it requires vulnerability. It requires an acknowledgment that like -- it requires a different vulnerability also that is . . . you have to be open to hearing things that you don't want to hear and you have to be open to asking . . . you have to be open to being asked to do a kind of emotional labor if it is indeed laborious, and it can be, but it's also necessary.
You have to be open to being called to do it. You know, to be taken up on your offer of doing more or being more. And I think it's hard for people to do that. I think it's scary for people to do it. How many people -- like how many Americans? I don't know, I'm sure the American Psychiatric Association has these numbers but how many Americans are in therapy? Right? How many people really, really, really want to do that work? And how many people want to do that work with people that they are in relationships with where like they think that because they're -- this person is someone they see all the time they don't need to do any work because like look, there she is.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean the obstacles are there. One is access and cost. Like, you know, that's not something . . .
Wesley: Yeah, that's fair.
(54:25)
Aminatou: That's not something that's lost on us. But, you know, even as somebody who can afford it, like doing this thing with my friend, it has had like a real -- you know, it's like it definitely makes a dent in the bank account, like not going to lie. Sometimes I'm like whew, why can't we figure this out alone? And, you know, but it also -- the dent in the emotional bank, I was like that is sometimes, like the cost of that I still evaluate because it is really, really, really, really hard to lay yourself bare for the people that you love.
Wesley: Mm-hmm.
Aminatou: But there's no way around it.
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: There is just no way around it. You know, if the goal is side-by-side seats, you know, at the retirement home . . .
Wesley: [Laughs]
Aminatou: You've got to do the work. You have to do the work.
Wesley: Yeah.
Aminatou: So ugh, Wesley thanks for being my friend. I appreciate it.
Wesley: I thank you for this. Like I feel like I should pay you. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know what? Two black people don't need to pay each other for . . . [Laughs] For the love we have for each other. But you know what? Our white friends should look at cutting us some checks, that's for sure.
Wesley: I'm WSLYY@ -- sorry, sorry. Forget it.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: Wesley Morris forever and ever and ever and ever.
Ann: What an honor and a pleasure to have him lay out some of these concepts in his own voice and words on our show. Like a true pleasure. Before we go we want to tell you about a few virtual events we are doing related to the book where you can join us from the comfort of your own social isolation zone and hear us talk about the book and watch us on video. We will be in conversation with Glory Edim of Well-Read Black Girl on August 6th and Samhita Mukhopadhyay of Teen Vogue on August 10th. And these events are in partnership with great independent bookstores and public libraries. You can find ticket info and RSVP to join us at bigticket.com/events.
We've also been on a lot of other podcasts lately and we would love to have you tune in to those shows as well. Most recently you can catch us on It's Been a Minute with Sam Sanders, Death, Sex, and Money, and quite a few more. You can find links to our interviews as well as excerpts from the book and other things like that at bigfriendship.com/interviews.
Aminatou: I will see you on the Internet Ann Friedman.
Ann: I will also see you on the Internet.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favs. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back, leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf and you can buy our book Big Friendship anywhere you buy books. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We have editorial support from Laura Bertocci. Our producer is Jordan Bailey. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.