Gossip Queen
6/12/20 - We talk with queen of gossip and media literacy Elaine “Lainey” Lui about the meaning of gossip, the royals, how covering celebrity has changed, knowing your worth in your work, and the empire she's launched her site LaineyGossip.com.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
TRANSCRIPT: GOSSIP QUEEN
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I am Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: I'm going to be honest with you, today's a 100 percent fan girl interview. I talked to Elaine "Lainey" Lui who is a Canadian TV host and the founder of laineygossip.com. And as you know laineygossip.com, a very important part of my media diet.
[Theme Song]
Aminatou: Oh, the most patient woman in the world, Ann Friedman. Hello.
Ann: Listen. A lot of patience is being asked of everyone these days so I cannot accept that distinction but I do appreciate. [Laughs] [Sighs]
Aminatou: How're you doing over there?
Ann: You know? Right in this moment talking to you I'm doing okay. I have some mild menstrual cramps and I'm kind of hungry for lunch but that is the immediate bodily update. How are you doing?
Aminatou: May they remain mild. Wild. [Laughter] What will you . . .
Ann: May your cramps remain forever wild running free.
(2:00)
Aminatou: What's that Mary Oliver poem? What will you do with your one wild cramp?
Ann: Oh my god, if only I had like one wild and precious cramp. Like that would be a delightful vacation from my uterine reality let me tell you. Ugh, yeah. Can you imagine the life? Just being like oh, there it is, wild and precious. Now moving on with my month, you know? [Laughs]
Aminatou: Wow, just one pang. One pang. One pang of cramping. You know, here's what I'll say about not having a uterus: it's lit. [Laughter] It's funny, it's like I think about . . . every once in a while I'm just like eh, I don't have a uterus. Then you think about the little bit of trauma that comes with that and I remember that I don't have a period at all and that is -- would not trade that for the world.
Ann: Let me say you have done your time. In the years that you did have a period you really put in -- it was not a singular one wild and precious. It's more like one wild and precious lifetime of menstruating that you have already been through so I feel fine about . . .
Aminatou: All of the money I'm saving from not buying menstrual products. [Laughs]
Ann: Listen.
Aminatou: It's how I'm going to make my first million. [Laughs]
Ann: Just like, you know, menstrual product savings alone, like ibuprofen savings alone.
Aminatou: See you at Neiman Marcus.
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: Ugh, Ann, what a day. What a day.
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: Well today's episode is very exciting.
Ann: Who is with us today?
Aminatou: I'm going to be honest with you, today is a 100 percent fan girl interview. I talked to Elaine "Lainey" Lui who is a Canadian TV host and the founder of LaineyGossip.com and as you know LaineyGossip.com, a very important part of my media diet.
(4:00)
Ann: Absolutely. My exposure to Lainey in this era of my life is mostly the Show Your Work Podcast which I love.
Aminatou: So good.
Ann: But yes, respect. Respect to all work in the Lainey Gossip universe.
Aminatou: Lainey Gossip is someone who I find to be incredibly smart about all things gossip but also someone who I think just very generously is teaching you how she is working in the writing. We are all growing together. Over the years I have read this website my own views about celebrity gossip have changed a lot and I am constantly challenged with how much of it I consume but also how much of it is, you know -- and whether it's important or not. Because as Lainey and I talk about gossip is actually a really, really important cultural lens to understand the world and to understand power, to understand wealth, to understand all sorts of cultural issues. But it's also true that gossip can also be trash sometimes.
And so she just threads this really interesting line and I think that a thing that her media empire has in common with our tiny, humble podcast is that we -- you know, we are constantly elevating conversations that people don't believe are important. So whether it's gossip or it's talking about pop culture or it's talking about secrets and the things that you hear whispered, those things tend to be -- I would say they tend to be very feminized and therefore people do not take them seriously. But the truth is that gossip is also really, really, really important when it comes to like teaching you things about how all sorts of systems work. So for example if you think about Me Too one interpretation of Me Too is it was truly just a whisper campaign that finally got loud enough that people started paying attention.
(5:55)
Ann: Right, which is what we are also seeing happen right now as people come forward and talk about their racist and racialized experiences in various workplaces, many of them media workplaces. Very similar pattern there.
Aminatou: Man, there is so much to talk about with that, like all of the news we're seeing come out of Refinery 29, Bon Appetit. Probably by the time this podcast airs, I don't know, more companies will face consequences. Who knows? But today I think we're really just going to focus on this conversation with Lainey but like our Joe Biden conversation it will be a two-part series on what the fuck is going on in media. And so, you know, today you get the treat -- the dessert -- and probably next week we'll get the vegetables, you know what I'm saying? [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: It's not fair to say the conversation today is not vegetables because actually I learned a lot. We're just living in a really interesting moment in media and a lot of plate tectonics are shifting and that's good and bad for very many different reasons.
Ann: Yeah. And I just have to say too that like to what you were saying about light conversations versus political conversations, one thing that I am really seeing a lot of people grapple with is how do I kind of do activism as part of my day job? Or how do I integrate all of these things that I really care about or maybe that I am only starting to really be vocal about for the first time? And I just want to shout out the Lainey Gossip homepage which at this moment has an article about Ava Duvernay's influence, has an article about anti-black racism on-set in Hollywood, has an article about copaganda a.k.a. pro-police media and shows, and also has a thing about J.K. Rowling's transphobia. Like, you know, it's not literally just what are the royals wearing? She's really taking this platform and saying okay, you're on a gossip website because you care about this industry and you care about what is up with public figures and we're going to give you that and we're also going to give you the ways that is intersecting with politics. And I think you are 100 percent right that she's a real model in this regard.
(8:10)
Aminatou: We love to see it. We love to see it. So I'm excited for you to listen, Ann. We talk about so many things. My total and utter disdain for royals. We talk about how does one get super well-sourced in the world of gossip? Like how do you make decisions about what you publish or not? And also how do you just grapple with the fact that the world is changing as you're doing the work that you're doing? And at the end Lainey and I get very real about feelings about being woman in media.
Ann: I can't wait.
[Interview Starts]
Lainey: I'm Lainey, I'm the founder of LaineyGossip.com, and I'm also a TV host in Canada. But mostly I identify myself as a gossip.
Aminatou: I cannot tell you how excited I am to talk to you. This is truly a pandemic highlight to me.
Lainey: I didn't know that there were pandemic highlights but I'm happy to be one. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You've got to take your pleasures where you can get them but for me I'm like oh, someone that I have read for years and years and years and years and years and also that is always in the back of my mind when I think about really important questions about how I consume media, and also I think of you a lot as someone who is in a really powerful way doing a kind of media studies that people need. And so it's just a real treat to talk to you today.
Lainey: I appreciate that. It means a lot to me. And I have to say I certainly, if I go back to the beginning of my career and how I used to talk about celebrities, I don't know that -- no, I can say for sure it wasn't the way I talk about them now. But hopefully like all of us we learn and we grow. For me it's about gossip as a form of communication and defending it as a valid form of communication. If I am to be the gossip crusader I have to do it responsibly but in a fun way. So to know that you are paying attention and are reading, it means a lot to me. I will certainly go forth with my crusade with more confidence.
(10:25)
Aminatou: [Laughs] You know, it's interesting to hear you talk about how the way you also cover celebrity has changed because you're so right that every year we have a new, different understanding about celebrity and about privacy and about media and all the things that are happening. I'm just so curious how you came to found the website.
Lainey: I was between jobs, and this is a long time ago, this was like 2002, 2003. So I just started sending an email to two girlfriends I sued to work with at the previous job I was at and it was a daily musing on celebrities. And they ended up sending that email to their friends and then those people sent it to their friends and soon there was this distribution list for this newsletter that was thousands of people long.
So I had a friend who was in web development and back then blogs were just starting. I know it sounds hard to believe now. But he said "I'll just build you a blog." So he built me a blog and I took the newsletter and put it into a blog and that just kind of took off and people started reading it and it was shared in Hollywood and in New York and in London. That's when I kind of started building up a stable of sources over time.
(11:40)
And at the beginning it was really how we talk about celebrities with our girlfriends. So it's fitting that I'm on your show. It's what you would say to your girlfriend over a glass of wine on Friday nights. And this is in the early-2000s, the mid-2000s, and I wouldn't say I was the most evolved in my personal views. The things I used to say then I would never say now and as I grew I'm happy to think that the people who read my site grew as well and the way we started talking about celebrities changed. And I realized that there was a deeper conversation to be had when on the surface we are discussing who's dating who or who's wearing what. We were actually exploring who we are as people, as a society, how we relate to each other, how we balance our perspectives, what our boundaries are. And so from there I would say towards 2008/2009 is when I began to really take a more media analysis angle towards my writing and the website and that continues today.
Aminatou: There's a real tension between the thing you were saying about gossip being a lens through which we can see culture and also realizing that some people -- the people who work in your industry, some of them are taken more seriously than others. I think that I struggle a lot sometimes with the things that people say about women who work in the industry because there is this wanting to just really, I don't know, to say almost the things that women talk about are not important right? And that gossip is not important and it's just this salacious, bad thing. And I think that if you are paying attention you know that that is not true.
Lainey: 100 percent. And as an extension to what you just shared I often find that what we all do is really the same thing but it's the subject matter that changes and then there's a value system added to it. For example we might be doing a he said/she said about celebrities and we're not taken seriously and then there's for instance a docu series which I loved called The Last Dance which is about sports and Michael Jordan and basketball which was a ten episode he said/she said really. And it was all gossip. And people approach that with such gravitas as if it's actually more transformative or revealing about who we are and what people are like than a conversation about who's dating who. It's the same but it's just certain things are assigned a higher value. And I object to that because it's genderized.
(14:40)
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean I am always impressed when I read your site and it's so clear that you are also an investigative reporter. I was like oh, this is not just -- it's like sometimes I read royal blogs and I'm like where is this coming from? Is there some pigeon that is just dropping off mail? Then you go to Lainey Gossip and you're like oh, this lady is working the phones. There's a quality to it that feels different. You know, and sometimes it's the tone but I think it's also the way you very casually discuss your sourcing. And without revealing too much I'm just very curious how do you acquire sources? How do you know to trust them? You know, how are you so well-sourced?
Ann: At the beginning of my career the sources came to me because they probably ended up reading LaineyGossip.com and I'm very fortunate. And they were people who worked in the industry and may have liked the angle I was taking. They would reach out and say "You know what? Your observation is right on." Or they would say "You're close but here's a little bit more context." And they just kind of liked the tone that I was presenting.
(15:55)
Now I'm fortunate in that LaineyGossip.com has been around for over 15 years. I also work in the media industry in Canada for the biggest broadcaster so naturally that just puts me in certain places where I have to be talking to people as part of my other job. And because I'm in front of them and they can see that I'm professional, I show up, I have broadcast standards, I build up trust, they feel more comfortable sharing things with me.
The most common question I get -- there are two. "Who are your sources?" which I will never say except I can give . . . [Laughs] I can give a very roundabout answer which is the entertainment ecosystem is so broad. People think celebrities and they immediately think about the people who are onscreen but they don't consider that let's say a film set is hundreds of people and that includes production staff, PAs, catering, hair and makeup, drivers. Any one of those people in the ecosystem can be a source. They are intimately connected to the organism of making a piece of culture.
And then the other question I get is why? What's in it for them? Like do you pay? And I can say no. I can tell you -- and I hope you believe me -- I have never, never, never paid for a story or a tip. And what's in it for them, why they're sharing, first of all it's human nature. People love to talk. People like to unburden themselves of what they know. It does give them a sense of -- a thrill to know that they contributed to a story, that's one aspect of it. Also in the gossip industry the gossip itself is the currency and the exchange.
(18:00)
So when I work with sources there's often like a hey, I need something. I need you to verify something for me. I heard this. Can you follow up in your circles and let me know if they've heard the same? And then maybe six months down the road that person might call me and say "Hey, I just want to check something. I heard something. Can you verify on your end if you've heard something?" And it kind of works like that, at least in my experience. Does that make sense?
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like I was reading a profile of you a while back where you said gossip is nothing more than an exchange of valuable information.
Lainey: Yes.
Aminatou: That is like gossip in its noblest form right? And in the most misused way that it's interpreted is as a rumor. So I wonder how do you make a distinction between when something is valuable information that should be shared and should be examined and is worthy of looking into and something that is just a rumor and potentially just harmful to share?
Lainey: Well if it's a source I've worked with for a long time and I know that they've come through for me I'm going to take that information a lot more seriously than a random person who messages me with a Hotmail account. And I'm lucky in that I have connections who have established a really good working relationship with me and I know that if they're telling me something they either would have seen it or they wouldn't be telling me if it wasn't pretty legit.
And if I'm not confident about it and if it is as you say a rumor then I generally tell the readers -- I put it in the writing and I'll say "Listen, this is something I've heard. It's not verified." The word I use is it's not slam dunk. People are whispering about this. Who knows if it's legit? And that's sort of how I present it to people. Then I'll go back and correct it, "Hey, she's not pregnant." Or "They're not dating" or "This isn't a fauxmance." Whatever.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I would read a blog all day that was just about fauxmances because I have my own opinion about them. Yeah, I mean it's . . . I love hearing you talk about that because going back to something we had mentioned earlier about what we consider legitimate gossip or not is I think a lot about the Weinstein story for example. So much of what we -- the fallout of Me Too has been. And I think if we're all really honest Me Too at the beginning is literally just women gossiping to each other about things that they've heard.
Lainey: Yeah.
(20:55)
Aminatou: And the power that that has to really dismantle a system, that is just something that I think about a lot when I think about all the gossip that I'm privy to and the gossip that I choose to share or the gossip that I keep to myself.
Lainey: Well wasn't the expression that came out of that the whisper network?
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
Lainey: And if you visualize what a whisper network might look like maybe you would think in your mind a graphic of someone leaning into someone else's ear with one hand held up to their mouth and leaning into the other person. And that's sort of like a very recognizable image of people gossiping right? Or passing around a rumor.
(21:40)
And yet that whisper network or that image with not very positive associations actually helped first of all protect many women and eventually brought down, well, it was like it was so late but eventually brought down a very powerful person. And yet there are people who would still disparage the visual of people passing a secret on from one to the other. And I think that there is a different way of looking at an information exchange and that's a really good example of it.
Aminatou: That's such a good point. The thing that everyone I talked to when I told them that I was interviewing you, the most pressing question that they all had for you was can you please explain to us why the Kate and Meghan bridesmaid feud is a story that will not die that has always resurfaced in the news? Isn't that a weird one? But legitimately nine people today have texted me about it.
Lainey: I wonder if there are historical roots to this. One person -- and particularly women -- one woman making another woman cry is . . . I wonder if it's because we've all had maybe our own experience with someone making us cry. Whether it's oh, you were eight years old and you were on the playground and Kimmy took your toy away or Kimmy embarrassed you in front of the person you liked or someone tripped you. Whatever. I think it touches on a memory that all of us have, maybe a still-open wound.
There's also I think the bridezilla fascination. So we all -- remember, I think once in a while, once a year there's a crazy bridezilla story that comes out right? And we all pass it around right?
Aminatou: Always.
Lainey: And it goes viral, and then you're like "Did you hear about that bridezilla who made her bridesmaids do this?" So this was the royal version of bridezilla which was Meghan was allegedly so bridezillaish about whatever with her bridesmaids that she went totally nuclear and poor Kate cried. Except this wouldn't even go viral if it was just civilians because it would be the tamest bridezilla story ever. What do you mean? They just couldn't figure out if the little girls should wear tights or not at a wedding? That's a thing?
Aminatou: Right. There's tension at a wedding. Great. [Laughs]
(24:20)
Lainey: Exactly. Well that's nothing compared to the bridezilla from North Carolina who made all her bridesmaids dye their hair zebra stripes. I don't know what you're talking about. So I think it taps into the bridezilla fascination we all have and whatever residual memory, haunting memory we've had of someone making us cry.
And also I think there was a fantasy at the very beginning that Kate and Meghan would be -- I hate this expression and probably your listeners do too but that's the reason why I'm saying it -- that Kate and Meghan would be #squadgoals.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Fair. That's fair. That's fair.
Lainey: Right? Because that was the fantasy that was sold to us that they would be this foursome. Kate and Will and Meghan and Harry, all of them super attractive, all of them quite tall. They're very tall, all of them. Like it's a thing. Maybe because I'm short I'm obsessed with that aspect of them but they're very attractive and tall. These are two brothers who are as close as can be and they should be sisters. We had this thing that it was going to be the fab four, #squadgoals. And we all love celebrity friendships.
(25:50)
And the illusion was broken by this one fight and in our minds now what we're visualizing is Kate on one side of a rope which is actually a pair of tights and Meghan on the other side of the rope which is a pair of tights and they're having a tug-of-war. [Laughs]
Aminatou: And Charlotte is crying in the middle. [Laughs] I mean it's very telling that when I was talking to my friends about talking to you the royal -- that's all everyone is talking about. I think that, one, it's because I'm going to confess to you now that I am down for all sorts of reading about gossip but there is something the irks me a lot about reading about the royal family. I think it's because I think that monarchy in general is a scam. And I also really . . . you know, I'm just like why are they always in our tabloids? I get why they're in your tabloids. You're in kind of the commonwealth towns. But here I'm like they don't even go here. I'm so tired of seeing them on covers of things.
Lainey: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And I think for me it's because it taps into this -- you know, I'm not saying that I'm a more noble person than anyone who reads celeb gossip. I just think that for me it really touches this point of the class aspect of it really irks me. I don't like the idea of these grown, tall people who are all able-bodied not having jobs, living off the dole. We don't really need them for anything ceremonial. Their grandma is not going to die for 20 more years. I'm just like this is such a family drama I don't need in my life and it annoys me so much. But I've been paying really close attention to your coverage and I find you are generally very positive of Meghan and Harry but it's like very fair, you know? I think I tend to become very petty. I'm not on team anybody; I'm just like please remove me from the conversations about this. [Laughs] I hate that people -- racism is a part of the conversation with Meghan and I think that really endears her to me. But there has been something deeply frustrating to me about watching coverage of this, not acknowledging that all of these people . . . I'm like you are all grown humans who should have jobs. I can't believe we are having a conversation like this about you people in 2020.
(28:05)
Lainey: I'm glad you're saying this because I also find it as a Canadian very confusing, the American fascination with the British royal family, because you guys are the ones who like fought a war to be rid of those people.
Aminatou: I know! [Laughs]
Lainey: But I do think that what's interesting and fascinating and frustrating with America -- I hope I can say that -- is on the one hand there is, yes, independence. You fought for your independence. You did not want to be part of the UK. And yet the other institution of America that isn't the British royal family is Disney and Disney's creation of the prince and princess fantasy. And I think that that is very much a part of the American DNA. So on the one hand where Americans are non-monarchy there is something very American that created this eternal dream of people wanting to be princes and princesses in animation. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You are really blowing my mind right now with this. [Laughs]
Lainey: So I think -- I wonder if . . . I hear your confusion and frustration as well but I wonder if there is some way to relate. Hey, someone way smarter than me can maybe write this essay or write a book about this but the relationship between the British royal family and Disney and how the two work together to keep America royal-obsessed.
Aminatou: Where is this book? Maybe you can add that in your empire of things that you're building. I think that you're absolutely right. I know that a point of frustration for me when I see the coverage whether it's in People or it's in a blog or whatever, the reason it irks me so much is because that fantasy is such . . . I'm like all of this is a mirage. This family is so invested in this narrative that they're these classy, British people. The minute you scratch the surface I was like they have family drama like everyone.
Lainey: Oh they're dirty.
(30:15)
Aminatou: There's nothing classy about this. And I think it's my eternal frustration with Americans think that anyone with an accent is a classy person.
Lainey: [Laughs]
Aminatou: I'm like first of all these people are wild. Everything from the tampon problem to Fergie and Andrew. I was like my family is crazy and we are not here yet. I find myself really both confused and frustrated at how every pillar of media really acts in doing propaganda for a thing that I was like we should probably all care about less because as an institution it is not an important one to uphold.
Lainey: It's not. But I will say these people are fun to talk about because they think of themselves as above drama and they're so dramatic. [Laughter] It's crazy. If you just go in point form what has gone down the last 30 years between infidelity, mistresses, and rumors of secret fathers and secret mothers and I don't know, also one of the princes being possibly connected to a serial pedophile then we have the whatever is going on between Will and Harry and Kate. They're so messy and it's shocking to me that they are upheld as the standard bearers of elegance. Are you crazy?
Aminatou: Listen, I'm with you. I'm with you. I hope to hear you say these exact words in The Crown season 25 when you play yourself in this era. [Laughter] Let's take a break.
[Ads]
(33:55)
Aminatou: We'll move on from the royals very quickly but I'm just wondering kind of what is your take on the situation now with a fraction of the family moving to America? It's this really interesting intersection of royal whatever and also celebrity that is really colliding into its, you know . . . I'm just very fascinated about that aspect of the story where I was just like wow, all of these worlds really are melding into each other.
Lainey: Well and you're my girlfriend now so I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to complain and bitch to you about my frustrations about this story about Harry and Meghan moving to L.A.
Aminatou: Yes tell me.
Lainey: Because you mentioned earlier it bugs you that Meghan is treated with -- has to deal with so much racism. It's gross. It's so unfair and I 100 percent obviously agree with how she and Harry are pushing back on the racist treatment from the British press and even members of the British family. And here's another reason why racism sucks. Racism sucks for all the obvious reasons but it also sucks because it's kind of removed the opportunity for media analysts like me to be able to just talk about Meghan and Harry like thirsty celebrities. These two, as much as I support their case against the racists I also want to be able to say these two are [0:35:27]. Okay?
Aminatou: Ugh, thank you!
Lainey: Right? And I worry though. I worry because you know how people can overreact these days and so I don't want to be accused of being a racist when I'm critical of Harry and Meghan through a celebrity lens the same way I would be critical of any celebrity. Because I do want to judge them on the basis of their celebrity decisions just like we judge Reese Witherspoon or Taylor Swift or whoever. And that would be a fun conversation to have except I don't want in doing that to get lumped in with the racists. I don't want to be associated with the people who hate them just because she's biracial. I don't want anything to do with those people.
(36:20)
And so I have to be able to carve out a very safe space where I don't get dumped on by the people who accuse me of being a racist just because I'm trying to critically examine them through the lens of celebrity and I also don't want to be associated with like the trash out there.
So I'm glad that I'm talking to you because I hope you would understand that they've moved to Hollywood. They wanted to take a break and be undercover for a while which they were doing just fine in Canada. But in the middle of a pandemic these two moved to celebrity central, like the TMZ, the 30 mile zone.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Lainey: And now there are drones flying over the house and they've had to complain to the LAPD or whoever the authorities are there. They say they kind of want to remain off the headlines for a bit and so when they had their anniversary a couple of weeks ago they were like oh, we're just going to go low-key. Every day the week of their anniversary we knew what cake they served, what they did, the gifts they exchanged, how they looked into each other's eyes under the stars. They could not stay away from us. And to me that is so Kardashian that I would love to be able to just have fun with that but you can't right? You can't because the conversations around them are just so heated and I worry that people can't filter through and pull apart what I'm actually trying to say and they'll just lump it in. So that's my venting session to you, but correct me if I'm off-side please. If you think that . . .
(38:10)
Aminatou: No, you are not off-side at all and everything you were saying is so close to a lot of my feelings about this and it's complicated.
Lainey: It is. It is complicated because I think there are valid -- obviously they have valid complaints. It's just that they're also celebrities. They're living at Tyler Perry's. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right. I'm like it's possible to experience racism because you are a person of color but also be someone who is perpetrating class warfare on other people because you're a rich person. I'm like we should be able to talk about those two things. [Laughs]
Lainey: Right.
Aminatou: But I guess I want to push that a little further because you and I are talking about it. I know that a lot of people that listen to our show are familiar with this. There are a lot of people who work in your industry who are also familiar with this kind of struggle. I don't have a solution for it but I do think another thing that frustrates me when we talk about consuming gossip critically is we really give consumers a pass in not examining -- I'm like we're all part of the ecosystem. Every time I look at Daily Mail on that scrollbar I am creating demand for this kind of news. Because I don't believe that consumers just get to skate away free and say oh, I don't care, it's just completely -- it's mindless reading for me.
And I just wonder what is the real -- are we ever going to have a real conversation about being critical consumers of this kind of news? Because to me that's where the key is, right? Of saying well if we could trust everyone to read the news with an understanding that we are all participating in the ecosystem then it is possible to have a nuanced conversation about hey, maybe don't be racist to the royal lady but also they 1,000 percent moved to L.A. because that one Disney job was not enough. [Laughter] I find myself really frustrated because I feel a complicity in both the system and the demand but also I both really enjoy this kind of news -- like I'm not going to stop reading gossip, that's just not going to happen. I don't think we're going to solve anything unless every single person who's part of it really is cognizant of what's going on.
(40:35)
Lainey: I agree but the thing is what we're experiencing in cultural consumerism is really the same as what the whole world is experiencing with just information consumerism. Like this is just a microcosm of the misinformation or the lack of information that we're seeing around everything: science, the economy, politics, all of that right?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Lainey: Like when you're only reading The Daily Mail for your royal news and you're not balancing it with, I hope, Lainey Gossip or Vanity Faire or Vulture then isn't that the equivalent of only watching Fox News? And not balancing it with real news.
And so I think that's why to me always entertainment and culture conversations and gossip is infinitely interesting because it's just a reflection of the greater world. Like watching a baseball game isn't going to give you that but understanding the gossip ecosystem is going to give you a lens into how the wider social fabric is functioning right now.
(41:55)
Aminatou: You know, another thing I really appreciate about your website is that you are very good at filling the holes between kind of what the celebrity PR needs are and what the actual truth is. It's very much -- you're very uniquely-positioned to explain how a story is shaped. People never feel bamboozled by oh yeah, Khloe Kardashian really wanted me to know this about her and that's why it's in Lainey Gossip. When you hire your team or you sit down to report a story or you think about the editorial lens of your show is there an ethos that is guiding all of that? And is there kind of a set of values that you check into?
Lainey: I think the most important value is you have to know -- are we allowed to swear?
Aminatou: Yes, are you kidding me? Please.
Lainey: My god, I haven't sworn once in 40 minutes.
Aminatou: Oh my god, just . . .
Lainey: I was going to say you have . . .
Aminatou: Go for it.
Lainey: The ethos for me is you have to know your shit. I just happen to have a photographic or whatever you want to call it memory for celebrity news. [Laughs] I wish I could apply that to physics but it's never happened for me. So I know my shit and part of that is just because I've absorbed it, I've been following it for so long, but I do read everything. I try to look at every photo. I try to look at all the angles and everything. And then I try and go to my own media sources and figure out how the sausage is made, what the chain of communication is before a magazine article goes out for example. What are the steps that need to happen?
I think that the casual gossip consumer overlooks that the ecosystem follows a protocol. For example I mean what's really timely right now is Kate Middleton or Duchess Kate or whatever we want to call her, her cover story in Tatler this month. People's basic lack of understanding of how an issue -- a magazine issue like that happens.
(44:05)
I know you know this because you work in media as well but there's a lot of naivety out there about how someone can make up a story and just throw it into a magazine like Tatler because they're confusing it. They're conflating it with the National Enquirer. Tatler as we all know is an established glossy. It's up-market. You can't just fuck around with just saying anything. There has to be a little bit of a scratch my back, I'll scratch your back relationship with their subject right?
And I'm trying to expose that to people when I'm writing about it. So the ethos is I have to be very, very well-informed but also the ethos is I want to inform. I want you to know the mechanics of the industry. My husband was just saying to me that he hates when I use the word content. He thinks it's eye-rolly. But it's a deliberate choice on my part because I want to be able to convey to people who come to the website that there is a guide to doing this. That people follow a playbook, and I want to show them the playbook or at least I want to be able to flip through as many pages of the book with them as I can. So that's the guiding ethos. It's almost like to me it's less important who the subjects are. I like the work behind it.
Aminatou: I love that. You know earlier I alluded to your empire but I really want to spend some time there. You have this iconic website, a deep roster of writers. You do a podcast. You are hosting TV shows. Like what are you not doing is the real question, but I just, you know, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what all of that -- you know, the body of work is that you're trying to establish and where your ambitions are.
(46:00)
Lainey: Wow. This is going to be a therapy session then.
Aminatou: Listen . . .
Lainey: [Laughs] You're catching me at a really -- you're catching me at a vulnerable time I think, a time where I've over the last three months had a lot of . . . because there's so much uncertainty I've had a lot of uncertainty about my ambitions and my goals. When you say the word empire there's a part of me that is afraid to confirm yes I'm building an empire because I'm afraid to sound like I'm overreaching. Could you build an empire out of something that started as a gossip column? So that's number one, I have to get over that.
Yes I did want to build an empire. I wanted to have the website and the podcast and be a broadcaster. I've written a book. My book came out six years ago. I have another, a novel in mind that I want to find time to work on. I would like that novel to be turned into a series. I think it's very cinematic. I think it's perfect for television. I have never articulated that before but I'm telling you because you're my girlfriend now. So those talks are in place; I just have to find the time to make those goals happen.
And that's the biggest stress of my life is time. I don't know where I'm going to find the time to do all these things with all the things I have on the go. And also with this pandemic I'm worried as all publishers are. You must understand this, you're a content creator to make my husband roll his eyes. And it's a scary time right? Because we put a lot of time into creating our content. We want it to be profitable without being outrageous about it and yet this is a volatile time for content creators. And so all of those things are swirling around in my head which is why my answer to you is so convoluted and not very -- doesn't make very much sense.
(48:00)
Aminatou: Your answer is not convoluted at all and it makes a lot of sense and I really appreciate your vulnerability because I find that really inspiring. I think that it's really hard to, you know, to speak out loud the things that you want when there's not really a model for someone who looks like you who's doing all those things, you know? So I appreciate it.
Lainey: Do you find it hard as someone who creates to express to the people who appreciate what you create that you want to be compensated for it?
Aminatou: Ugh, man. It's so interesting, like when you said that your husband hates the word content creator I'm at the . . . like my therapy session is that I'm still not at the point that I'm admitting to myself that that's kind of what I do, you know? It's like no, no.
Lainey: Come on, what?
Aminatou: I'm being vulnerable with you now. My real sickness is that I show up to do a bazillion projects. I enjoy doing all of them. I really shy away from just being like okay, this is my thing. It's almost like I just have a very casual relationship with things I'm successful at which it's so sick because yeah, it just comes from a place of like ugh, if you own it then are you jinxing yourself? Are you being too full of yourself or whatever? So I'm working on it.
But one thing that I do not suffer from is asking people to compensate me for my time. I don't know why the other thing is really hard but the thing of hmm, sorry, you should pay people for what they're worth, it's not a conversation that I'm shy about. I grew up in a house where we didn't have anything and so we talked about money all the time or the lack of it, you know?
Lainey: Yeah.
(49:55)
Aminatou: So it never felt impolite to talk about. But I also think I really do it as an act of politics because I'm like I'm at the point where it doesn't cost me a lot to speak up for myself and I know that when I do it it empowers so many other people, like I have seen it, you know? And I'm so sure of it that I will always do it because it always makes a difference for someone else in the room whether it's me or someone else. And it really is like a muscle. It's like the more you do it the easier it is. And that's not to say that, you know, there's not times where I'm in a room or I have an opportunity like ah, I would love to just do that. You know, and I also do make choices sometimes about taking on work that is not paid because there's a trade-off. But it's like the number one thing that will always irritate me is if someone is asking for my time and tells me that it's good exposure for me. I'm like first of all people die of exposure literally. And second, you know . . .
Lainey: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And I just see it so much with women and I see it with people of color. I see it with every kind of marginalized person. We are always expected to work at a really high level and there is not really an understanding of the realities of our lives, you know? So I try to always just have that conversation as a way to really talk about a power dynamic, you know? Because I do think that a lot of times people don't even think to compensate you because they've never had to be in a position where it matters.
Lainey: Yeah.
Aminatou: It matters. And I also think it's the only way we're going to close the gap in wealth building for us is you have to talk about it. So I'm like I'm definitely less shy about it. I know that the more I do it the easier it is but I also think that as an act of solidarity we should all be doing it in general. Because let me tell you if you and I are worried about it there are a lot of people who are looking to us who don't even have the words to say it for themselves.
(51:55)
Lainey: You're right. I appreciate that. I think it . . . I read an interview with you, was it last year, where you were like straight up last year I made $300,000. Or was it . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yeah.
Lainey: Anyway that happened right? I did read an interview with you?
Aminatou: 100 percent. It happened and my dad was so mad about it but yes. [Laughs]
Lainey: But I will say that I read this interview and you were like "I made this much money." And I was like oh shit, this is amazing. And you were very detailed about how you made the money. You're like I did this and I did a tour. Anyway, then there was some sponsored content that you broke that down. And the reason why I liked that so much is because first of all I love that authenticity. I love talking about money in the sense of as a Chinese woman -- Chinese people are all right up in your business about money all the time. If you walk into a Chinese person's home, or at least the Chinese people I know, they'll be like "Come to my house. I bought it for this much money. And I paid this for . . . oh do you like this toaster? I paid this much money for the toaster." Everything has . . .
Aminatou: Oh my god, I was born in the wrong culture. That would've made me so happy. [Laughs]
Lainey: There's a dollar sign attached to everything in a conversation with at least the Chinese people I know. But I think it's very tricky when you cross culture and talk about money. For me we'll -- I run LaineyGossip.com. There has to be ads on the website. The ads are how I pay the freelancers who contribute to the website. I believe in their work. I would like to uplift their work. I would like to create more space for the work. But I can't not pay for their work. Nobody contributes to Lainey Gossip for free. They are paid per word.
(53:45)
And so it's hard sometimes for me to get notes from people who will say "Ugh, there are too many ads on your site." And you have to balance like you don't want to tell someone to fuck off but you also have to say how else am I going to pay for the photos that you're seeing and the writers and the content? There's that word again. Without charging a fee these are my realities as a businesswoman. But I even sound apologetic saying that to you right now, you know what I mean? I put in my voice that apologetic tone. And this is something I'm continually trying to work on. I made a point like I had to ask you about that because your interview last year really stayed with me.
Aminatou: You know it's so fun to talk to you about this because that's the thing that in our business Call Your Girlfriend we talk about all the time, right? Like how do we . . . we are three women who make a show. We are definitely self-identified feminists. There is just an expectation that because we talk about our politics so much that we are also people who will work underpaid and we're not participating in capitalism. I'm like that is absolutely not the correct assumption.
I think that you're right that it's tricky. I have made a decision for myself that I will not apologize for it and that my solution for it is to really explain my work to people because I think that a lot of times that misunderstanding comes from people not knowing what you do. And I think that when you're a woman people just also think you don't do anything. It's just like oh yeah, Lainey Gossip, she just calls people and she just gets gossip. And there's not a reality of nope, she's actually a manager. She has to pay for these wire photos. She has to manage a payroll. You do a hundred jobs, like if you break down the tasks of what you're doing I think that that's really important. And it's my roundabout way of saying that it's why it's so important for us to really -- to talk about your work in specifics.
(55:55)
And going back to that thing I was telling you earlier about how I have a really hard time owning all the things that I do, and the reason that I'm working on it is because I'm like you know what? If I do not explain to people the mechanics of my work of course they're not going to respect it and of course they're not going to respect how much time and effort I put into it, you know?
So it is annoying whenever I'm negotiating a fee with someone. Now I'm lucky enough I have to do it less and less because I have management where they can have those conversations. But I'm still pretty involved saying actually I think my value is X. If people don't like that then I'm like that's fine, you don't have to pay for it. That's totally fine. But I do think that a piece of this puzzle is really -- it is explaining what you do, and I think doing it in a way that is not defensive and not weak, it's a challenge for all of us but we do have to do it. It's why I'm fascinated with the business you're building because there's so many moving pieces to it, right? And I recognize that every time you add a new thing or you do something else it takes away from your time. But it also means you have to create new value and new revenue there.
And so to put this all full-circle I think also it's why consumers shouldn't get away with just getting things and not understanding how the things they get are made. With our show I'm like you get a free show every Friday because we have advertising. If you don't like the advertising, tough nuts man, but that's the way that you get a free show. We could charge you five, ten, fifteen dollars for it like other places do. We have made a decision for our sanity and our just like time management that that's -- a membership system is not what we want.
Lainey: Yeah.
Aminatou: And again everyone has choices. But if you are in 2020 you get a thing for free, let me tell you, free is not free. Someone is paying for it somewhere and we -- like on our show we talk a lot about the struggles we have with advertisers that we approve or not. You can imagine it's tough to have that conversation with advertisers and it's tough to have that conversation with the listeners. But we're just like here's the deal: we hold ourselves to a really high standard and everyone who works from our team, we believe that we want to pay them fairly. I'm like capitalism sucks but this is the system that we're working with so we are all trying to make it work.
(58:05)
Lainey: Well this is why I think that it's so interesting going forward to bring it back to celebrity which is my job is to observe them. For a long time we didn't have to see how the sausage was made so to speak where celebrity was concerned because part of celebrity is the mystery for sure. And yet we're moving into a time when it's not that cool to, as we've seen during the pandemic, to be like here's my fucking mansion and my Lamborghini.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Right, people who have mansions telling you to stay home is not a good look.
Lainey: Right. So there are celebrities who are getting -- who are quick to realize that and actually showing us their work, like giving us the behind-the-scenes on how they do things right? And what they're busy with and all the things that they're juggling. There are also old-school celebrities who still want to maintain the veil or to stay behind the curtain and yet also live that celebrity life.
I wonder whether or not that class warfare is going to manifest itself between celebrity and civilian in a sense of like oh, okay, did you buy like your eighth house? I want to know. Can you show me all the work that you did? Do you sleep? And that's why Beyoncé is so brilliant, you know what I mean? Because we never doubt that when we don't see Beyoncé she isn't hustling and working. We already know. We already know how busy and how hard Beyoncé works. But I think that there are a lot of people who haven't -- a lot of celebrities, and that's where I think I might be focusing, a lot of them still remain quite mysterious about how they do their work and how they fill their hours.
(1:00:05)
Aminatou: Right. It's like let's just show the work. Just show everyone how your, I don't know, I think about this all the time with people who are really wealthy and famous. It's like either keep it to yourself or you kind of have a duty to explain how your life is made possible.
Lainey: Yeah, I wonder. Maybe this won't happen at all. I just, as a celebrity analyst, I'm just curious to see whether or not the audience's appetite is going to get -- they're going to have more of an appetite for show me. What do you do? How do you do it?
Aminatou: Yeah. I honestly think it depends on when you got famous, how you got famous. I in the pandemic have discovered that Kate Blanchett is my favorite actor because I was like I don't know anything about this person and I enjoy all their movies.
Lainey: Yeah.
Aminatou: So it was really refreshing and my heart was broken when somebody told me she was Australian. I was like I don't want to know anything about her. She's a cypher to me. But I do think that . . .
Lainey: But she's also not showing you her 18 million dollar home.
Aminatou: Exactly. She's not on social media. She's not participating in this weird economy of show me who you are and what you have. Just like you I wonder because I think it's all about drawing boundaries between you and the public but also the social contract of what it means to be known for your work. And on a smaller scale I think that is also something that even people who are not famous have to contend with. The impulse to want to be known for your work is one that we should be interrogating all the time because if it means you have to live a visible life it comes with its own set of challenges. And culturally we are navigating them in a way that is, you know, I think we're all just figuring it out as we're going.
(1:01:55)
Lainey: Well I mean I take it back to your comment about the royals, like you guys don't even have jobs. [Laughter]
Aminatou: [Sighs] I'm telling you that is . . . that will never not make me mad. Adult children living on the dole, it's awful. Lainey I could talk to you all day but I just want to say thank you so much for making the time to come on the show and also just to make your husband mad for the content that you put out because it . . . it really does make a difference and it is such a corrective to so much other media that we're consuming and I just really appreciate that I can be entertained and also learn something at the same time. And there's also just room to change as a person and all that can be acknowledged so I really appreciate you.
Lainey: Thank you for having me. I'm putting out there -- I don't want to seem too desperate -- but if you ever want me to come on again to talk about anything I would love to.
Aminatou: Done and done.
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: That's Lainey Gossip y'all!
Ann: Thank you Lainey! Thank you Aminatou Sow, still my favorite interviewer in the business.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Even in fan girl mode. Even in fan girl mode I love you.
Aminatou: She is truly the best. Thank you for coming on the show Lainey, come back any time, and you are my other favorite interviewer in the game so I'm really happy that we get to work together.
Ann: Me too and I am excited for the conversation we're going to have next week when so many more things will have happened I'm sure.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Like I can't even speculate on what our reality might be in one more week but I'm excited to process it with you.
(1:03:50)
Aminatou: I'm happy to announce I've taken the job as editor in chief at Bon Appetit so I won't be here next week but I'll see you in the test kitchen.
Ann: [Laughs] Wow okay. I will see you on every corner of the Internet.
Aminatou: Bye boo-boo.
Ann: Bye.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favs. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back, leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf and you can buy our book Big Friendship anywhere you buy books. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We have editorial support from Laura Bertocci. Our producer is Jordan Bailey. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.