Teen Feelings: Summer of Friendship #2

6/3/20 - We learn about young Aminatou and Ann from Faith and Bridget, our high-school besties—who both remain close friends today.

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

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CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll

LINKS

Pre-order Big Friendship. Coming July 14!

HARDCOVER

Bookshop.org | Indiebound | Barnes & Noble | Amazon | Books A Million

AUDIOBOOK

Read by the authors! | Libro.fm | Kobo | Audible | Downpour | Audiobooks.com | Chirp

E-BOOK

Nook | Kobo | Amazon | Apple Books | Google Play | Books A Million

SPECIAL OFFER

After you pre-order the book, click here to enter your purchase info to receive a signed bookplate and a Shine Theory button and sticker!

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TRANSCRIPT: TEEN FEELINGS: SUMMER OF FRIENDSHIP #2

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: I'm Ann Friedman.

Aminatou: Happy summer. Happy summer of friendship.

Ann: Summer of friendship. Listen, making the celebrations we need for ourselves in 2020. That's what that is. [Laughs] Happy summer of friendship.

Aminatou: You know, I'm really into it. I'm really into it. What are we talking about today?

Ann: Well our book which is out in a week? Like very soon.

Aminatou: You wrote a book? You wrote a book?

Ann: If you're listening to this it's like . . . stop. Our. Our, my friend. Our book. Our book Big Friendship is out very soon and we are talking about friendship all summer long, all of July and all of August, and today we are rewinding the clock a little bit to talk about the teen friendships that make us who we are as adults.

Aminatou: Woo child! So in today's episode we go back to talk to our high school besties.

[Theme Song]

Ann: I'm so excited about this episode, I can't even tell you. Like it's been months and months and months in the making.

Aminatou: I feel like it's been years in the making because we have talked about this so -- we talked about this before there was ever the idea that we would write a book about friendship so it makes me really happy. I am really thrilled to do this because I just feel that high school is so far away and you know that my natural trauma reaction to everything is just to forget things and it was really fun to be reminded of a lot of things I'd forgotten about. And also just my high school bestie is pretty awesome so any amount of time I get to spend with her structured or unstructured is really fun.

(2:15)

Ann: I know. And so it's worth noting that our book is explicitly about adult friendship but in order to really talk about that and to talk about some of the patterns and expectations that we all bring to friendship as adults we in the book and in life have talked a lot about how early friendships have really shaped us, and particularly when you're a teenager and you're just starting to kind of form an adult identity a super-close friendship at that age can fully chart the course of your life. Like my high school best friend Bridget who we will talk about in a minute is someone who perhaps more than anyone . . . I don't know. I don't want to put a superlative on it but is someone who has very, very greatly shaped the person that I am today.

Aminatou: Same. My high school bestie Faith is someone that when I think about my ideal -- my best self, when I want to be my most generous self and my most giving self and my most just vulnerable and available self, that is the relationship I feel that was so foundational to start understanding all of those things. And also, you know, like just that thing of someone seeing you really stumble into young adulthood and not really have any judgment about it and someone who . . . . Faith was just someone who saw me do a lot of dumb things and a lot of just very me things and still just unconditionally loved me. And that counts for everything.

(3:45)

Ann: It's true. And you know one thing that I . . . it hadn't really occurred to me about Bridget and my other very close high school friend Josh, those are friendships that felt so intense in part because they really felt like I chose them for myself in a way that maybe my younger childhood friendships did not. Like those were a little bit more dictated by who my family was friends with or things like that. And listen, I'm from a pretty small town. It's not like I have my pick of a vast world of people. But we then and now have always really felt like we chose each other and I think that feeling of you're the kind of person that I want in my life when I'm an adult is something that is so powerful to work through together, you know? And to kind of be future-oriented together which I think is a defining feature of my high school friendships.

Aminatou: I know. I think so much about this idea of friendships that are just rooted into the future and how much it's basically your present self trying to pull yourself into the future with each other.

Ann: Aww.

Aminatou: And, you know, and with Faith we were both so nerdy. Our school was such a like everyone was just like sports and academics all the time. No one was really doing fun anything else. But she was just someone that, you know, everything that she thought about my grades really mattered. Everything that she thought about like where are we going to school and what kind of people are we going to be and what kind of jobs are we going to have and what kind of adults are we going to be walking through this world? It's been really fun to see how some of that has come true and some of it hasn't.

I don't know. I've just really enjoyed . . . obviously I enjoy watching the trajectories of a lot of my friends but with Faith it's so special because of where we went to school and our specific contexts and now we both live in America. And having this conversation with Faith for me was really eye-opening in that it really helped me see a lot of really unhealthy patterns I have in relationships. We went through this period where we were basically estranged from each other and it was one million percent my fault because I was going through my own, you know, my own like Amina shit and just like not caring about someone else. But watching how that impacted her and also watching how she 100 percent forgave me and gave room for me in her life, and again that like unconditional love of I've known you for a long time. You're a total idiot but you're my idiot even though we are two very, very different people is something that it's had like an impact on me that I don't think I understand the magnitude of quite yet.

(6:20)

Ann: Hmm. Yeah, and I think that for me it's interesting, when I think about my friendship with Bridget which has never really had a period of prolonged estrangement but has definitely had phases where we are more in a daily kind of contact versus a monthly kind of contact, you know? And when I think about that friendship I'm tempted to kind of relegate it to the past when we both felt like we were kind of nerdy outsiders and we really only wanted to hang out with each other and a couple other people. We were not trying to be the popular kids at our high school. We like you were not excited about high school sports or whatever was deemed to be like the dominant interest at our high school.

And it's interesting to think about how that feeling of like it's the two of us versus everyone else still kind of remains, like even though it's not really a versus feeling, this idea that we are a team of two and it doesn't really matter what everyone else around us likes or does if we're on the same page is something I still associate so strongly with her and with that relationship more than any other because it was rooted in this place where we chose each other and we chose nothing else about that circumstance.

Aminatou: Yeah, right? I feel that so much. I feel that so much. You know a thing that was really funny too about talking to Faith is there's the entire narrative you have of oh, wow, I've changed so much since the person that I was from high school but so much of her conversation with me was just reminding me that actually there are just things about myself that have never changed. I was like oh yeah, I was definitely this kind of asshole for a really long time. [Laughter] But there was something about that that was really comforting, like your friend as a witness to your own evolution as a human, it felt really good to talk to her because it was like okay, yeah, I had some kind of ideas about my politics and how I am in the world and my confidence level or my just how much I was so not a joiner and I didn't just trust other kids or want to get in trouble with other kids. It was so reassuring to hear from Faith that no, no, I've always been this person. She was like "Yeah, you were like this at 16 so it's no wonder that you're like this at this age."

(8:40)

So that felt really good but I, man, shout-out to the high school besties who stayed good friends because it really . . . it's just fun to have someone who has known you for that long. Well, you know, let's -- we should probably stop talking and let our friends talk because I cannot wait to hear Bridget describe baby Ann.

[Interview Starts]

Ann: Hi Bridget.

Bridget: Hi Ann.

Ann: [Laughs] Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Bridget: Oh thank you Ann.

Ann: I should say before we start that we are in a car driving down a freeway in Iowa which might be something you can hear in the background but feels very appropriate for talking about our friendship, much of which has taken place in cars. [Laughter]

Bridget: Yes it has.

Ann: Do you have a favorite memory of us in a car?

Bridget: Oh there's so many Ann. Oh it's so hard. Okay, this is maybe not the top memory but it's the one that just keeps coming to mind so I'm going to say it and it's probably good about being there in the best and worst times is when I was trying to light your bowl for you because you couldn't do it yourself. I don't remember if I did it or you did it but somebody burned off your eyebrow.

Ann: You know . . .

(9:55)

Bridget: And it was just okay. [Laughter] But we were in the car. I think you were in the front seat, I was in the back seat. I don't know, why couldn't we have just pulled over?

Ann: It's true. Why couldn't we have just pulled over? The story of smoking weed in the car as teens. We had nowhere to be.

Bridget: Exactly.

Ann: Like why couldn't we have just stopped to preserve all of our eyebrows?

Bridget: Gotta keep rolling. [Laughter]

Ann: Oh my god.

Bridget: What's your favorite car memory?

Ann: Well I don't know. When I think about being in the car with you I think about you picking me up for school.

Bridget: Oh yes.

Ann: There was a good couple of years where you would drive me to school, and it would've been Harold, your Nissan I think.

Bridget: Yes, or Gregory for a little bit too, the Pontiac.

Ann: Right. Bridget names all of her cars.

Bridget: [Laughs]

Ann: But I think it probably would've been Herald because Herald was like a luxury car in the '80s, like there were electronic things to move the seats and stuff and I think it had a tape deck.

Bridget: Yes.

Ann: But I just have this memory of like the feeling of freedom when you came an scooped me up at my house, even if we were going to school -- like nightmare -- is a feeling I still get whenever I hear When Doves Cry.

Bridget: Yes. [Laughs]

Ann: Because there was one day you picked me up and it was on the radio and you were just like ugh, like you've always loved Prince and you were like ugh, good omen, you know?

Bridget: Yes.

Ann: And that feeling of like your song is on the radio, like I'm in my friend's car. I'm not feeling that trapped feeling. I don't know.

Bridget: And to make it even better, the story about being a good example for our relationship, I lived so close to our high school that to pick up Ann it probably made my trip five times longer.

Ann: [Laughs] It's true.

Bridget: But it was so worth it. So worth it.

Ann: Right. Do you want to tell the story of how we met?

Bridget: I will start it but I'm sure you can add in some good details. So we were in seventh grade and just starting out. We both went to separate Catholic schools for grade school then in junior high all the Catholic kids mixed in one place called Jones Middle School.

Ann: Jones Junior High.

Bridget: Jones Junior High. That's right. See? I need you Ann.

Ann: I will just fact-check you in real-time as you go. Go on. [Laughs]

(12:00)

Bridget: Yeah, it probably isn't that amazing of a story as I'm saying it out loud but to me it was life-changing. So I remember sitting in Mr. Adekirk's math class and we were just placed luckily in the same class which meant we had the same class for every . . .

Ann: Like the same exact schedule.

Bridget: Yeah, same exact schedule, so we had half the day together. And I just kept admiring this other girl who looked kind of dorky kind of like me but she had this awesome pencil case and had cool things in it and fancy pens, but more than anything I just thought it was awesome that she had this Mona Lisa watch and it didn't have any numbers on it so she couldn't read it anyway but I just thought it was like ugh, so cool.

Ann: I still can't read watches with hands very well. I'm currently wearing a digital watch. [Laughs]

Bridget: So one day I was like ugh, I've just got to say something to her so I said "I like your watch."

Ann: And I also liked your watch. You had a very cool watch with hands that looked like a pair of scissors.

Bridget: Yes I did.

Ann: Ugh, we admired each other's watches and the rest is kind of history right?

Bridget: That was it, yeah. Yeah. Life-changing.

Ann: When you think about our friendship in high school, like how would you describe it to someone who wasn't there to witness?

Bridget: You are my other and I think it went both ways that we both depended on each other so much. But for me with severe anxiety I couldn't imagine not having you there for my support, like even if we weren't in the same classes, like I knew you were there and you were just my person.

Ann: Serious buddy system. [Laughs]

(13:45)

Bridget: Serious buddy system and we did everything together. Everything. Yeah, it was really almost like a twin in a way.

Ann: Yeah, I always like . . . I find myself, when people talk about albums from the '90s, I'd be like well I didn't have that one but Bridget did which is essentially the same thing as me having it, you know?

Bridget: Yeah, yeah.

Ann: It's like I owned In Utero and you owned Never mind.

Bridget: Exactly, yes.

Ann: And together we had the two most important Nirvana albums, you know?

Bridget: [Laughs] Yes.

Ann: There's so many. You had the Rolling Stones subscription and I had the Spin subscription and together we could read both. There's so many pre-Internet media consumption, we really . . . you're right, other half kind of thing.

Bridget: Right, we were Patsy and Adina like always.

Ann: Ugh, we watched so much Absolutely Fabulous.

Bridget: And I think the big difference is without you I would've felt like a weirdo outcast just because of the things I liked but with you it was like we were cool together.

Ann: Yeah it is true. I feel like we very much created our own definition of cool, and in the sense of I was used to being made fun of for the things that I liked in my . . . like you mentioned that we went to these separate Catholic schools. In my Catholic school no one thought it was cool that I wore stuff that I had bought at the thrift store or that I wore Converse or that I wore weird socks from the weird like head shop. Remember that place?

Bridget: [Gasps] Yes!

Ann: What was it called?

Bridget: I can't remember what it was called.

Ann: It's going to come to me.

Bridget: Way Cool?

Ann: Way Cool! Oh my god. [Laughter] These are things that I'm like okay, when I look at now movies and TV about cool teen girls I feel like we were cool teen girls.

Bridget: I do too.

Ann: But we were not cool by the standards of our peers, and so like being together in a friendship I was like well if Bridget thinks it's cool it's cool.

Bridget: Right, yes, which drove my mom and my sister nuts. [Laughter]

Ann: The fact that if I thought it was cool it was cool?

Bridget: Yeah. Or if they didn't like what I was wearing it was like but Ann likes it. Ugh. [Laughs]

Ann: Hah.

(15:45)

Bridget: And for me I was never bullied or made fun of for what I liked but I think I just had such a fear of standing out because of the anxiety. It was my most horrifying nightmare would be to be the center of attention so it was like being okay to be myself even if it meant I was different because I wasn't so afraid of that because I wasn't the only one.

Ann: One of my favorite things when I think of us in high school together is pushing the boundaries of the school dress code.

Bridget: Oh yes. [Laughter]

Ann: Like . . . 

Bridget: So fun.

Ann: Oh my god, so our school dress code was we had to wear plain-colored, non-denim black, navy, khaki, or gray plants and then a plain-colored collared shirt. And to this day I can't wear that combo.

Bridget: Oh me too, yeah, absolutely not.

Ann: But, you know, we would push it in ways where I would buy -- like I would thrift these vintage Levi's men's corduroys that technically met the requirements and met those and you, gosh, I still remember the day that you realized a pair of coveralls were technically in dress code.

Bridget: Oh yes.

Ann: because it was like navy pants and a "navy top." We should say that your dad was a mechanic and strongly influenced your aesthetic in a few ways.

Bridget: Oh yes, that was actually a pair of his coveralls. [Laughs]

Ann: And I just have this strong memory of you coming to school in those coveralls and just being like well, technically in dress code and it was like we were conspirators together in finding out how to do our own thing within this set of total bullshit rules.

Bridget: I think that was the only time ever I was sent to the principal's office. And I just remember sitting there and being like "I don't know, check the rule book. I think I pass." [Laughs]

Ann: And wait, did they make you go change? I forget.

Bridget: No but they ended up just saying don't wear it again. But also now it doesn't sound like that big of a deal, like you saying you would thrift men's corduroys, but then and especially in the place where we lived for you to wear a pair of men's pants, that was horrifying.

Ann: That's true. People did call us gay like more . . . I don't know, like not . . .

Bridget: Like it was an insult.

(17:50)

Ann: Exactly, exactly. And I was like not in a cool way is what I was just about to say. [Laughs]

Bridget: Yeah, yeah. Definitely, yeah.

Ann: Right. And yeah, maybe it was the men's pants or the inseparability but . . .

Bridget: And I think that we were so comfortable with each other too, because like that one time when we were at the carnival. [Laughs] Yeah.

Ann: Oh yeah, please describe. We went to was it the catfish festival?

Bridget: I thought it was the county fair.

Ann: Okay.

Bridget: I don't even know why we went, why would we have gone there?

Ann: There was nothing to do. That's why we went, yeah.

Bridget: Yeah. But anyway so we were walking in the fair, carnival, whatever it was and it started to rain. And first of all Ann is really blind and she had these really thick glasses but they started to steam up because of the rain and it was summer so the condensation. She couldn't see and there was all these cables and cords on the ground because it was the fair ground. So I held her hand and was helping her walk along so she wouldn't trip. Of course I would. Of course we would hold hands.

Ann: Of course.

Bridget: I just remember this crowd of people around us going "Oh, you're lesbians. You're so gross. You're gay, you're gross. You're lesbians, lesbians." And for me I was like why is that an insult?

Ann: Yep.

Bridget: Even at 14.

Ann: Of course.

Bridget: I was like why is that an insult? But also why is it wrong for us to hold hands?

Ann: Also why is anyone paying attention?

Bridget: That's a good point.

Ann: You know, that's the fundamental question to me. Anyway, I was going to ask do you think we were codependent?

Bridget: Ooh, yes.

Ann: So we should note that Bridget is an art therapist so asking questions like this, yeah, so were we co-dependent?

Bridget: I would say yes. Yeah, definitely.

Ann: But we had other friends in like, you know . . .

Bridget: We did, yes, yeah. And we still had our own style too. It's not like you, if you didn't like an outfit I wouldn't wear it. It's not like that. Like we definitely had our own style, our own interests separate from each other.

Ann: It's true. You were way darker than I was. You were say gother than I was.

Bridget: Yes, definitely.

Ann: I never wore black lipstick. I've always been irrepressibly happy. It sounds so embarrassing to say that.

Bridget: Yeah, yeah.

(19:55)

Ann: But yeah, it's like, you know, when . . .

Bridget: Remember when you used to say "Bridget, the only problems I have are your problems?" [Laughs]

Ann: I don't remember saying that. That's so bitchy.

Bridget: No, no, you were being nice. You were trying to be nice.

Ann: Ugh, god.

Bridget: It's okay but I'm here to help you with yours. Or at least that's how I took it.

Ann: Okay good. I mean because when I hear that I'm like ugh, I just want to give her a slap, baby Ann.

Bridget: I mean maybe we weren't codependent but as teenagers you are with any of your friends I think. You have to have a group or something to stand on usually. Or not have to, but a lot in order to be strong and survive because your family's not really there for you in that same way.

Ann: Yeah, say a little bit more about that because when I think about like teen years it feels the same way as I feel now. I'm not saying I was fully adult as a teenager but the things I desired and the stuff I wanted to do with my time was not that far off from the things that I want now. It's like I want my own space. I don't want to go to church.

Bridget: Yeah, you want your friends to be your priority.

Ann: Yeah. I really prioritize my friends and I like spending a lot of time with them. I don't want to eat meat. [Laughter] Whatever, you know what I mean? All these things that were really emerging throughout my teen years. So I have a lot of compassion for the kids we were in trying to essentially try on the adult identities that we now embody a lot easier. But yeah, I don't feel like either of our families made that particularly smooth.

Bridget: No. Not at all. And not to say that that is unusual at all in a way.

Ann: Right.

Bridget: But yeah, they weren't as embracing of anything. Well, especially yours, no offense. They just were so different from you and didn't understand necessarily you in any way or your likes or why your likes were important for you.

Ann: Right.

(21:50)

Bridget: Or why for you to have different likes from them would've been important to you.

Ann: Right, different value system was emerging.

Bridget: Yeah.

Ann: Yeah. The other thing I think about a lot when I think about our high school selves is how grateful I am -- I mean I'm grateful for your friendship in dozens and dozens of ways but one thing in retrospect that I think about is it was a real training ground for me in how to be a friend to someone who's going through something really difficult that they don't know how to fix or solve or work on yet. And the fact that that was an experience we had together when we were maybe codependent, maybe just hanging out a lot together is something that I think has allowed me as an older adult to feel more comfortable being a friend to people who have maybe an illness or a disability that I don't have first-hand experience with because I had this really formative experience of being friends with you through a hard time.

Bridget: Right. And actually on the other hand it helped me so much. Like now I think about all the times when I need to communicate with people about what I'm going through or the needs I have for whatever it is, then it was mainly depression -- still sometimes -- I think about how I would communicate it to you or what you would say back to me. But I guess the things you said to me in high school have always stuck with me. Yeah, I think that's really when I learned so much just how to share it with someone else rather than hide it. And back to -- this is kind of flip-flopping.

Ann: Of course.

Bridget: Back to the codependent thing too, I think also why it's hard to say whether or not we were is because so many things are behaviors in adolescence. Like of course it could be a mental health diagnosis. Everything you do in your teenage years you could . . .

Ann: You could probably pathologize in some way. Yeah.

Bridget: Right. But it's age-appropriate so therefore you shouldn't diagnose it. [Laughs]

Ann: Right. Now when I think about if you were like okay, Ann, you have to live in your parents' basement, eat a lot of meat casseroles, have your schedule dictated by someone else.

Bridget: And your wardrobe.

(23:55)

Ann: And your wardrobe, have to go to church once a week, I would still need a buddy to survive that. [Laughs]

Bridget: I know! Me too. I still need a buddy and I need you now in my life to survive what I live now. Yeah.

Ann: Right. Talk about that a little bit because I think that one thing that Amina and I have been thinking about a lot as we write this book is the idea that a lot of people have that most friendships -- not all -- but most friendships have a kind of fixed time and place. And while they might've really worked in that period of intensity the way we're describing our high school years they often don't translate beyond that. I mean you see people go to college and get whole new friend groups or you see people -- any big life transition, like friends kind of not coming with them. When I look back on my life the people who haven't made those transitions with me, it's sort of easy for me to describe why they haven't. But when it comes to a friendship like yours which has survived every major transition of my adult life it's harder for me to say why it has worked, you know? And I'm wondering if you have thoughts about that, about why you think we've worked for so long as such close friends.

Bridget: You know I usually, when I wonder that, I usually attribute it to you because you are excellent at maintaining friendships with people for long term and long distances and that's harder for me. But yeah, now that you're asking me I guess I have to give myself some credit too. [Laughs]

Ann: Yeah, hello? I wouldn't just be -- I'm not friends with voids, you know what I mean? [Laughs]

Bridget: Yeah, it's true. I guess the first thing that comes to mind really is what we might consider in ourselves as flaws, that's what the other person finds so loveable. And I remember being really frustrated with that not happening when I first started having some serious romantic relationships in my life and I was like how can you not love this part of me that is not the best part? But how can you not find that beautiful or endearing or funny or street? Because Ann would . . .

Ann: Ann's obsessed with it. [Laughs]

(26:00)

Bridget: Yeah. Ann would make funny jokes about my sweaty hands. You know, it's not like disgusting to her.

Ann: [Laughs] I do love your sweaty hands.

Bridget: Yeah, yeah. So I think that was really different, and now of course we would go through it because the things you might not want to stick through because you find in a relationship it's too hard, just personality problems with other people, what you see is problems in your relationship, maybe it's more loveable for us. I don't know.

Ann: Yeah. And sometimes I come back to when I think about our friendship I really do think about oh, this is how family feels for a lot of people. It feels like very much a given for me, not that I can ignore this relationship and auto-pilot it, but it feels a given to me that you will be part of my life forever. And I think that's something that has to do with all the hours we spent together in this formative period where it seems impossible, like you knew me at this very beginning point of the self I am now and there's literally no one else who knows the story like you do.

Bridget: Right.

Ann: And I could never, ever let go of that, even if -- it's hard to imagine even if you did something really hurtful to me or even if I did neglect this relationship, I honestly cannot imagine my life without you as a person who knows the whole story of it.

Bridget: Yes. Honestly I still feel like you're my other, even though I'm married and have a child now.

Ann: Adults have lots of types of others, yeah.

Bridget: Yeah, you still do. And I do think you're my other, or even -- I'll be in thrift stores a lot if I'm by myself and I'll find an outfit that I think is maybe a little over the edge, I'm not sure, you know how you always have to assess.

Ann: Yeah.

Bridget: Then I'll think "What does Ann say?" and then I kind of judge myself, like do you need Ann's approval? It's like it's not for approval; it's just like yeah, do it.

Ann: Yeah. Almost always . . . almost always my answer is yes.

Bridget: Yeah, do it. So it's more of an encouragement of yeah, you can like that. You can wear that two-piece Getato (?) floral outfit you found.

Ann: Ugh, I know. Yes.

(28:00)

Bridget: Yeah. It's more the encouragement of yeah, go do it.

Ann: What about the kind of like long-termness of it? I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about the things that . . . how am I different from friends you've had for five years or even ten years?

Bridget: Well for one thing I think it's survived because we are not codependent as adults.

Ann: Ah.

Bridget: You know, like we do have very different lives but we don't compare each other's lives. It's not ever competitive. We both support each other in whatever decision we make.

Ann: Right.

Bridget: Even if it's not a decision we would make. I guess you're different in the way that I don't have to explain everything to you. You know, it doesn't have to come with a backstory.

B :Right.

Bridget: I don't know. There's so much more humor in everything. It's hard to say how it's different.

Ann: Yeah. I mean there's also this sense -- I've just been at your house where I slept in a bed with you where I'm like, you know, I have no fear about picking up your baby and lugging him around and slinging him around because, I don't know, there's like an ease and comfort in I'm like what's yours is mine even though I don't sleep in your bed every night and don't pick up other people's babies with ease. Do you know what I mean?

Bridget: I mean to this day, Ann, I still think if we ever went sledding together and your pants got wet I would still loan you my underwear. [Laughs]

Ann: I mean this is -- okay, did you know this though? In Oprah and Gayle's friendship there's a story about Gayle lending Oprah some underwear in the very . . .

Bridget: Oh no, I did not.

Ann: Yeah. I mean yes, Bridget's referring to an incident where I needed a fresh pair of underwear and she provided it. And as I recall it was a good pair of underwear too. It had vegetables printed on it.

Bridget: It did, yeah. It was my best pair, of course.

Ann: Aww! You can still borrow my best underwear.

Bridget: Aww, thank you.

(29:50)

Ann: I'm trying to think if there's anything else I want to ask you.

Bridget: The future of our friendship?

Ann: Sure, want to talk about that? What's the future of our friendship?

Bridget: Yeah, because I do think about that a lot. Especially, yeah, as our lives are very different. I don't really see it changing a whole lot.

Ann: [Laughs]

Bridget: Honestly the only thing . . . I guess I still have this fantasy that when we're younger and possibly single women again we will live closer and nearby each other. I still have this fantasy of us coming back together.

Ann: Yeah. And also like life is long, you know? You don't know where each of us is going to be. That would be . . . I think we would be very compatible roommates in old age.

Bridget: Yeah. And honestly when I think about myself in my death bed it's you there nursing me. [Laughs]

Ann: Oh 100 percent. 100 percent.

Bridget: And same the other way, I would be there for you and I would do all the gross, disgusting things to help you and I wouldn't -- I don't think you would feel shame about it. You know, I think it's that acceptance of us in our most human.

Ann: Yeah. Kind of back to that idea of not just were we codependent but the ways our friendship has changed, you pointed out it's like you and I both have really important other people in our lives. It's not just this very intense the two of us against the world. And we had other friends even in high school but I think it's grown more pronounced. Have you ever felt jealous? How do you feel about your place in my life and my place in yours?

Bridget: Oh, that's a good question. I have definitely gone through flashes of a little bit of jealousy when you've talked about your other female friends but not as much anymore. But yeah, I guess you just have a lot more friends. You're outgoing, you have a lot of friends, and I was always like oh, I'm one of them.

Ann: Yeah. I don't know. I guess I'll explain more about kind of why I'm asking it, because for me there's a handful of people that I would call best friends of my life, right? And it's wrong to say it's a tier where they're all best friends in the same way but there are definitely, of the people who are closest to me, they are all special to me or I feel known by them in different, special ways. That sounds like the kind of bullshit like "I love all my children equally." [Laughter] but there is a part of it that's kind of like that where you have this special status because of like sheer longevity.

Bridget: Yeah.

(32:25)

Ann: And I don't mean to say that's the only reason that you are one of my closest friends but I think that's sort of what this episode is about in a way, that special designation of a really long friendship formed when you're young.

Bridget: Yeah, and maybe . . . I guess I can think of one moment, the year I went to the Desert Ladies gathering and I was a little nervous to meet Amina because I feel like that is your other in a different way in your life.

Ann: Yep.

Bridget: And this was maybe seven years ago?

Ann: It was a long time ago.

Bridget: Yeah, it was a long time ago and there were so many people there like I didn't really talk to Amina until like right before I was about to leave and she said something to me about how she was a little worried to meet me then everything changed in that moment. I was like oh, well we have nothing to worry about. We're the same. Ann loves us all.

Ann: Right.

Bridget: But yeah, when you say like you have a lot of people you call your best friend, that's true. I refer to lots of people as one of my best friends but you are the only one that I say my best friend.

Ann: Aww.

Bridget: You are still -- yeah, you're still the top.

Ann: Special status. [Laughs]

Bridget: Special status.

Ann: I love you so much.

Bridget: I love you too. You're the only one I've ever had a best friend heart necklace with.

Ann: Oh my gosh, it's so true. And the fact that like, again, markers of early friendship right?

Bridget: Yes, yep.

Ann: I forget, was I friend or best? Which were you?

Bridget: Uh, ooh.

Ann: I can't remember which half I had.

Bridget: I can't remember either.

Ann: Okay that's how you know it's true friendship. [Laughs]

Bridget: It's true.

[Interview Ends]

Aminatou: Bridget!

Ann: [Sighs] One of my favorite humans on this planet. A truly amazing person.

Aminatou: Let's take a break.

(34:35)

Ann: Do you have like an iconic Faith memory, almost like a snapshot? When I say Faith in high school like a moment you picture or an image that comes to your mind?

Aminatou: It's always this giggle smile with deep dimples.

Ann: Aww.

Aminatou: Like always on the verge of getting in trouble, or her like grades coming back. Did this happen in your school or is it just like in our schools where whenever the grades come back they would give them from the highest grade to the lowest grade, so they were like passing out papers? So Faith would always turn around and be like "What did you get?" Like that is my everlasting memory of her.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: It's like "What did you get?" and if she didn't get a 100 or 99 running to the teacher's desk to be like "What can I do for extra credit?" And very much I was like eh, an A is an A, I don't care. But it was really . . . like a lot of just like mischief and a lot of just joy. Just very intense kind of joy.

[Interview Starts]

Aminatou: Hi Faith, thanks for being on Call Your Girlfriend.

Faith: Hi Animation, what up?

Aminatou: [Laughs] I cannot believe you're calling me that. That is -- it is . . . it's a nickname that I thought I had left in the past.

Faith: What was the genesis of that anyways? Why? Why Animation?

Aminatou: You know, I think that it's one of these things where first of all any time my name autocorrects on iOS or anything it's always Animation instead of Aminatou but that's like a separate issue because before we even had iOS in high school I think all of the . . . whenever the dumb boys we went to school with would call me something it was always Animation which I never understood at all. I just feel like it doesn't fit my personality so I always found that fascinating. But then on top of that it is really funny that that's what the autocorrect for my name is so maybe they were just on to something.

(36:30)

Faith: Okay, so that's where that came from. That makes a lot of sense.

Aminatou: That's how I remember that traumatic nickname but maybe it's different. [Laughs]

Faith: Well now that you put it that way I will refrain from referring to you in . . .

Aminatou: Do you have a nickname?

Faith: I had like a million. Do you remember any of them?

Aminatou: I mean I remember Faith O-la-la, like . . .

Faith: That one definitely stuck. The other one I had was a little too intense, it was Powerhouse 24/7.

Aminatou: Oh that was like your AIM or MSN name also. [Laughs]

Faith: My first email address was powerhouse-something-247@hotmail.com.

Aminatou: [Laughs] It sounds like a radio station when you say it like that. It's like welcome to Powerhouse 24/7. It's really fitting that we're starting with high school nicknames because obviously you are my high school friend that I wanted to talk to for this episode. Oh, I just wanted to go back to Powerhouse 24/7, I also think -- and Faith O-la-la. I just want to say they're both very Nigerian in context and much funnier when you understand them in that context.

Faith: Yes, true that. And I will say that Powerhouse triggers me a little bit because I feel like that was the lens through which I was viewed in high school as this tall, athletic powerhouse girl. That's why I kind of like Faith O-la-la because it's a little bit more flirty and balances me out a little bit. That was like my journey, trying to work out of that powerhouse mold. But this isn't a therapy session is it? [Laughs]

(38:05)

Aminatou: Faith it is a therapy session unfortunately. Any time you talk about high school it's a low-key therapy session.

Faith: True.

Aminatou: So, ugh, man, I mean I'm just curious what were your impressions of me in high school? Or for someone who didn't know me back then what do you think was the story of who I was in high school?

Faith: That's an interesting question because I feel like you are an enigma, like you were hard to figure out. You were hard to label because you were just so many different things. So I guess people have to kind of understand the backdrop of the school event too.

Aminatou: Tell the people.

Faith: [Laughs] So it's founded by Christian missionaries. Strong, you know, Christian culture. There was sort of this mold that everyone was trying to fit into and so there was sort of a standard, a code, a code of conduct and that's sort of how we all sort of walked and talked and breathed and lived and played. And then I think towards maybe eighth grade and high school we started to have these radical newcomers start to trickle in.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Faith: Like these people that it's just like who is this girl? What's her deal or what's his deal, right? And I feel like I don't really have a first impression of you because I was just trying to figure you out.

Aminatou: And I came in tenth grade. I came in tenth grade.

Faith: You were one of said radical newcomers. You weren't cookie cutter Christian; you were this worldly, exposed, well-traveled, just a big out-of-the-box thinker. I feel like you marched to the beat of your own drum but it wasn't even a drum; it was like a ukulele. You were just like [musical sounds].

Aminatou: I can't believe you.

(39:45)

Faith: I'm just like wow, and I don't know what to do with her. [Laughter]

Aminatou: I don't remember it that way but I know that it was true. I guess what I'm trying to say is I didn't believe that the other kids I was surrounded by were picking up what I was putting down. Let's just put it that way.

Faith: Really?

Aminatou: Yes, in the sense where our class was really small, like our graduating class was 29 people which I think for our school was a pretty big class. So we're talking like high school is a universe of maybe 100 people. Definitely not 100 people but I'm just saying 100 people to be charitable.

Faith: Yeah.

Aminatou: And most of those people have known each other since kindergarten, you know? Then you come in as a 15, 16-year-old and my sense of really belonging was really thrown off but also it kind of didn't matter to me because I had never had that experience of oh, like I've been in the same school since kindergarten or I've known the same people or whatever. So in some ways it was not really intimidating. But I definitely sensed that people did not know what to do with me and I always chalked that up to the fact that it was a very Christian school and I was not Christian. But now that you're putting it that way I'm like oh, it was actually a lot of things. It was truly, truly, truly a lot of things.

Faith: But I will say that when I think about being challenged, when I think about broadening my horizons as a product of that environment, I think you really challenged me to think out of the box, you know? You don't know what you don't know. And I think there were a lot of ideas and theories that you had that were very unconventional but really forced me and I'm sure others to think and think deeply. You always had a deep thought. Like we'd be out there talking very superficial stuff then you'd come and drop a bomb and we're like oh, well I guess we have to go think about this a little bit more and come back with our informed opinions. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Do you have an example of that? Because I don't.

Faith: Just even from like oh, you can't use that word because . . . or not you can't but that word is significant because it comes from Latin origins for pain and it was tied to the Greek whatever, whatever, whatever. And we're out there like oh, okay, cool, because you were this girl who spoke Latin. You do French. You were just very well-informed and when you were arguing your points they were informed. They weren't just emotional or not well-thought-out. And it just kind of made us sit up a little straighter like okay, you've got to come with your A-game when you're talking to Aminatou now.

(42:15)

Aminatou: Ugh, man, it's so funny to hear you say this stuff about speaking and language because I don't remember us ever explicitly talking about politics or talking about issues or really talking about values. I'm not saying it didn't happen; I'm just saying I don't remember that at all because I have put high school in a box in my mind that is just, you know, it's in the back of the closet and you dust it off a couple of times. But my experience of boarding school actually is you were like my worldly friend in the boarding school environment because you weren't a boarder, you know? You had a house in town that you lived at. And so any time I got to go to your house for a sleepover or hang out with you or your sisters would send a care package or like a thing I was always like oh, man, this is what happens when you're not in the group think of the boarding school. [Laughs]

Faith: Wow.

Aminatou: And so I remember you as someone where you were always so generous, like I think that so many things I learned about being someone who just opens up your home to people and embraces people, like you were always hosting sleepovers. Any time you had a snack it was the snack of the five people that were your closest friends. You just, you know . . . and I think for me it left such a deep impression of oh, you can share yourself and you can share your resources and you can share so many things that you have of people. So my recollection of that is that for me you were someone who just opened my mind and opened really my world outside the doors of high school, literally, because I was there at boarding school. And so it's just funny how other people can have a huge impact on you and I don't think I've ever told you that, you know? And you just remember it differently.

(43:55)

Faith: I've never heard that and it's very interesting because I would actually see it from my angle. I looked up to you guys who were boarders because y'all had access to all those American things that we didn't like you guys got to drink Kool-Aid. You got to eat lasagna, enchilada, brownies and no-bakes. All those fun little treats that people like me were like ooh, fancy, you know? So that's so interesting that we saw each other in that way.

Aminatou: I think the way our school was structured there was a lot of class warfare that was immediately built in because you had this like very large contingent of white American missionaries mostly and all of the structure of the school was literally to cater to them. Then once they started letting in a lot of Nigerian kids to come to school it was probably to offset a financial deficit they had where it's like oh, yeah, let's open the school to more people. The kids who were not American missionaries had to take an entrance exam. And then you have the structure of the people who were boarders and the people who are the day kids. And if you were staying in boarding school structure like me it probably meant that you were living in a dorm that was run by American people and there was always this appeal that there was more prestige to being in the boarding school structure I guess.

But I never felt about it that way and if anything all of those things that you just listed like Kool-Aid and brownies or whatever, those were literally my worst nightmare. [Laughs] You know? I was just like god, American people are always eating trash. I cannot abide by this. It's a time in my life that I was not understanding that was happening but I also think a lot of my friendship with you was definitely informed by that because there was no glint in my eye about look at all this fancy stuff I have access to. I just wanted to have access to real people and you were definitely a real flesh and bones human being. It was really nice. It was like here I was friends with another black African woman and our family structure was not exactly the same way but I think because we opened up about how our families were it was really a form of therapy for me. Like it was the first time that I started to be really honest with people about whether there were family issues I was having or ways I was thinking about what I wanted to di with my life. And so that's something that had a really lasting effect on me.

(46:20)

Faith: That's so sweet to hear from you. I mean I didn't know it then and to some extent I don't think I had been fully aware of it now but I'm glad that you found that in me, in my house [Laughs] as a place and a space you could open up. I think that's what friendship's all about. I mean we're all wired for connection. But I think going back to what you said about sleepovers, I lived for sleepovers. That was a space you could be unapologetically yourself. You could just sort of hang out, lay it all out, talk, get to know people beyond what you saw in school. So I feel like for me it was more about just the people that I was live and the connections that we were making.

Aminatou: That's true. I want to talk a little about school itself because I feel like the most long-lasting impression you left on me was really the importance of studying and doing your homework and just generally being someone that classmates can count on. I want everyone to know that you were definitely the top of our class, you know? And so for me it just left this really lasting impression of like oh yeah, you have to be diligent and also you have to be reliable.

Faith: Can I tell you a little secret? Not to . . . we talked about how this may or may not be a therapy session but I do have a confession to make.

Aminatou: Tell me your confession.

Faith: So I think that a lot of my identity was wrapped up in my grades.

Aminatou: Oh yeah, for sure.

(47:45)

Faith: I was my grades in my mind. I remember not being able to go see I think the Lion King might've come out around maybe sixth or seventh grade and you know I loved those sorts of activities. It's nighttime. You know, we go to the auditorium, it's showing, there's popcorn, all that fun stuff. And I wasn't allowed to go see that movie because I think I had gotten . . .

Aminatou: No!

Faith: A C or maybe a B minus or something. And so all of my report cards that followed after that were straight As. And so I think just the shame that I might've felt from that kind of propelled me to overcompensate and just get these straight As. Because I was that girl that we all got our tests back and I'd be like "What'd you get? What'd you get? What'd you get? What'd you get?" [Laughs]

Aminatou: I know. I know. Did you have friends in high school though that you felt that, you know, whether the academic competition or who was going to be a sportsperson of the year or whatever that dumb reward was, that played a role in your friendship with them?

Faith: Not really. I feel like . . . because we all had niches, right? So I felt like my niche was academics and I felt like I was consistently doing very well in academics all through high school so I didn't really feel threatened per se. Now in other areas, for example athletics, I didn't really feel threatened because that really wasn't where my identity was, you know?

Aminatou: That thing you're saying though about caring less because your identity is not wrapped into it, it's kind of a revelation to me now because I was like oh yeah, in high school none of my identity was wrapped up in anything to do with high school and I think it's why I had a certain level of just detachment to the whole thing.

Faith: Yeah.

Aminatou: Because I was so focused on being an adult. You know, I just thought that high school was the wait station until you got to adulthood. So what does the football player say? I'm just here so I don't get fined, you know? I was like this is me. I'm just here so I don't get fined and then in four years my real life can start. And so I had not intended to make like really lasting friendships there and I think that when we met it was so refreshing. I was like here's someone that's so different than me but also is bomb.com. But high school is also weird because it was the first time that people definitely tried to bully me when I started at Hillcrest. People were so mean immediately. It made it really easy not to want to fit in. And I think because I was older, 1) I was older but also I'm like I'm me. You cannot bully me, are you kidding? This is so -- it's so unbecoming of everyone in this situation. [Laughs]

(50:30)

And so I think that seeing it really quickly and being like oh yeah, this person's just insecure. It's why they're being mean. Or this person, they're just being really territorial of their standing in this group of 29 people or this group of whatever. And so there was just something about it that was immediately non-threatening to me because it was just so transparent what was going on.

Faith: Well sorry to hear that. Had no idea that was going on.

Aminatou: I mean you kind of did because this is how we became friends is there was a clique of people who were being mean to me and you extended an arm out to me. Like I don't think that you said "Hey, I'm sorry these girls are being assholes." But you were very much like "What's your story?" That was the vibe, you know? So it's funny to me that you didn't pick up on that because for me I was like oh, this person is kind of swimming against the tide by talking to me because no one else here is kind of interested in knowing who I am.

Faith: Aww. I think it's because it wasn't -- I didn't recognize it as bullying because it wasn't like the overt push you down, steal your book bag, or something like that. It was more of the bullying by exclusion, forcing you to just sort of stay on the outskirts. But I think I never thought about it that way but I guess that highlights the part of me that's always been curious about people's stories. So I think that hearing that from you helps confirm to me some of the work that I'm doing around vulnerability and shame and stuff like that.

(51:55)

Aminatou: Man, Faith, that's so -- can we talk about that a little bit? I'm feeling a lot of feelings. You are so integral to my own journey about learning about vulnerability and learning to release shame. You know, I always thought of you as someone who is like God, you are light years away. You're in the graduate school of here's how I talk about my feelings. Here's how I communicate clearly with people. Here is how I deal with my grief publicly. Here's how I do all these things and I always thought I was in a remedial course. And so hearing you say that that is also work for you, even though I know it's work, I don't know. It's making me feel a lot of feelings.

Faith: It's such useful work. It's such necessary work. And honestly I just got tired of being crippled by shame. And I think also growing up in the African context where you're groomed to hide things that are not, you know, pleasant, hide your pain, hide your shame. "Don't bring shame to the family," like God forbid. It really stifles you and prevents you from living your most authentic life. Yeah, it's a journey but it's one that's worthwhile. See? Auntie Brene making you proud. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Oh wow, yeah, Faith is the number one Brene Brown fan. I feel like I'm just catching my breath because you're right, we grew up in an African context. Then on top of it you add this weird religious context that reinforces so much of the shame that you feel. Our worlds were really small in high school. Faith, I think you and I stumbled into young adulthood in the same ways. Like one of my happiest, happiest, happiest memories of you Faith is when you came home with me to Brussels.

Faith: Ahh!

(53:40)

Aminatou: I'm just laughing at the fact that we were both in school in Texas like, you know, romping around Europe for spring break where my family was living at the time obviously. But I think that trip with you and me, it's one of my happiest memories of young adulthood because it was like oh, yeah, I knew this person from high school. Look how much our lives have changed. We're doing this fun thing together. It was really important for me that you meet my dad and my dad really understand you because he was so not around in my high school life. My mom obviously knew who you were and she was Team Faith all the way but you know how dads are always slow on the uptake.

Faith: [Laughs]

Aminatou: And so for my dad to fall in love with you was really, really important but also for us to have adventures alone in a completely other context like that day trip we took to Paris and doing all this other stuff, I was just like yeah, this person is my -- we're adults now. We are not children.

Faith: It was very fun and I think it was very liberating which leads me to I want to talk about what happened in our relationship thereafter. Do we want to talk about that in the spirit of vulnerability and transparency?

Aminatou: Yeah. Let's talk about it Faith but first let's take a break. Yeah, you know, so we have this time in our life where it's like away from high school. We are finally adults. We don't go to the same school. You were someone who was really, really, really supportive of me after my mom died and at this point in my life you're a really, really old friend, you know? Then we go through this period of just not talking to each other for a long time which I think is fair to say was really my fault because like I had a lot of things that were going on in my life that because of a particular kind of shame I was feeling and a lot of just unresolved trauma from something that had nothing to do with you at all meant that I completely cut myself off from you. And that's something that hurt you very much and we were not able to talk about it for a really, really long time. In fact the only reason we were even able to talk about it is because you put your foot down and reached out to me gain.

(55:55)

Faith: Yeah, I think -- and I don't want you to say it's your fault because I think at that point I wasn't as emotionally evolved and mature as I am now where I couldn't understand that sometimes when people go through things it's not about you and you just need to support them in the best way that you know how. If that means supporting them from a distance that will suffice as well. Just allow people to go through whatever process they need to go through.

So I definitely took it personally, especially after we had had that mountaintop peak experience. You know, Belgium, we're getting waffles, we're shopping in Vero Moda, the world is great and then boom.

Aminatou: [Laughs] You did not just say shopping at Vero Moda as a highlight of your life.

Faith: Yeah.

Aminatou: I'm just -- I will not allow that to stand. [Laughs]

Faith: They had coats that were long enough for my wrist. You know I'm an orangutan so I could actually find coats that were long enough. But yeah, we went from that to radio silence, like crickets, and I just thought did I do something? Can I do something? What can I do? But I don't know what that issue is. So I just sort of took it personally and, you know, kind of called it a wash.

Aminatou: The reason that I say it's my fault and I appreciate you being really generous and being like it's not your fault, you know? And I'm like sure, we can both be adults saying that. I think it's because I am recognizing that this is a pattern that I have of when my life gets really hard or when I am going through something that is really, really painful whether it was like all of the stuff that led up to me having cancer or just these other really painful dynamics that happen in a lot of people's lives my tendency is always to go inside of myself, you know? How do you make yourself so small? How do you not -- you know, how do you just manage?

(57:55)

And I'm very much like well all I'm trying to do is one foot in front of the other. I think if it was like oh yeah, my friendship with Faith is the only time that I've experienced this then I would call it a wash and be like this is a one-time thing. But that is in fact not a true assertion. And so I think that, you know, as much as you were saying that yes when you can have that feeling of I'm not connecting with someone then you can understand that it's not your fault and has nothing to do with you, I think that part of my growing up and my understanding more about myself and all the ways I am capable of hurting people that are close to me and being really vulnerable is part of that is also being grown-up enough to say hey, I need some time for myself. It has nothing to do with you. I just need some time for myself, you know? And actually saying it out loud instead of not reaching out. It's part of the wound and part of the shame, right, of just like oh yeah I am so focused on my own pain that I don't understand that it has reverberations for other people who love me. And that is something that has been really eye-opening and is also very challenging to deal with.

Faith: Well I'm super glad we took on the elephant in the room head-on and I think it's made for more understanding, mutual understanding, and just grace you know? Life is really, really tough. That's one thing that they did not teach us. But yeah, I think people are going to go through things and how they choose to handle it is how they choose to handle it. But I think as friends it's good to be supportive and not make it all about you. I'm glad we sorted it out and were able to come to an understanding of how we relate going forward, because who's to say? Something could happen tomorrow but I wouldn't walk away from that thinking oh she's mad at me and make it about me.

(59:50)

Aminatou: Right. But I think that tendency is so natural though, you know? Of like feeling iced out by someone and you cannot help but wonder if you did something. And that is . . . I don't know, I think a lot about it as someone who has both been on the side of ugh, did I do something wrong? Like what did I mess up now? Because my sickness is that I think that everything is my fault and my therapist is always like "Amina, why are you inserting yourself in this situation that has nothing to do with you?" [Laughs] And again I was like oh yeah, thank you for reminding me of the self-centeredness I wake up with every morning so that's great. But I think that tendency is really natural and also then I'm also someone who on the other side of it is someone who's made a lot of people feel that way. And I think the only way to push forward with that is you have to talk about it because it's not fair on both sides but the only way that you can be really deep and close friends with someone is you have to be able to address it.

Faith: Absolutely. You cannot live a life that is not authentic, period, in any way. Gotta be true to yourself, true to your relationships.

Aminatou: Is that you or is that Brene Brown? Where is that coming from?

Faith: That's me, boo. That's me.

Aminatou: [Laughs] You know I'm only teasing you. I mean that is a refrain that you have had since we were very young so as far as I'm concerned Brene Brown should cut you a check. But I want to go back to this thing though that you were talking about vulnerability. I just wonder how you think about it in all of the relationships that you have. Is it natural for you to be like I have to be vulnerable with my friends specifically? Or did you have to learn that in the trial and fire of becoming an adult? Because I think that a lot of messaging that I had ingested about vulnerability when I was younger is it was something you did in a romantic context and it had never really occurred to me that I had to flex that same muscle in my friendships.

(1:01:45)

Faith: I think that why I became so passionate about vulnerability is I became so crippled by shame. I'll give an example. So in high school and, you know, in the years to follow my identity was wrapped up in Faith the perfectionist. I make good decisions. I get straight As. This is who I am, right? And then going through getting engaged and then calling off an engagement about three months to the time and having to sit in that shame of wow, I really messed this one up. There's a million fridges out there with save the date magnets that the date will not be saved. And just being able to sit in that shame, for the longest time I hated it. For the longest time I disconnected because shame and connection cannot coexist.

And so that shame kept me just really paralyzed and I didn't want to live that way. Long story short I just really didn't want to live that way anymore and I had to get comfortable with saying "My name is Faith and I made a really bad decision. My name is Faith and I make on occasion really bad choices. My name is Faith. My life is not perfect. My name is Faith and my life is really messy." And that just shattered all the frames and structures that I had worked so hard for, you know, 20-plus years to put in place. And I found out that when I was able to break all those molds and just kind of step out into the world as I truly was there was so much liberation associated with that. It was almost like a sigh of relief, like exhaling years of built-up pretenses and it was contagious. The more I stepped out and became vulnerable and shared my story the better I felt and the more freedom and liberation it gave other people to be authentic and to share their own stories and even foster more connection. So it was like the gift that kept on giving. And so it was just a realization that there is no other way to live. This is the only -- actually the only way to live. Anything other than a vulnerable life, you're cheating yourself out of the experience of living a really full life and I don't want to cheat -- I only get one life. I don't want to cheat myself from this one life I get to live.

(1:04:15)

Aminatou: Ugh, Faith, I want to go back to 15-year-old me who already looked up to you so much and admired you so much and I just . . . I couldn't believe when we were young that I could admire you more and I do now today so that is truly blowing my mind and it's making me really happy. But also we've come so far! We've come so, so, so far. I feel that when you know someone for a really long time and especially when you know them when you're really young there's just you can fall into a tendency of having that person be really static in your mind.

Faith: Absolutely.

Aminatou: You know, you're always going to be the Faith that walked across the graduation stage, you know? And it's like this is who you are frozen in my mind. And I think the real gift of this friendship to me is I've seen you be so many different people. And not that you're a chameleon or changing but truly that you are evolving and I think that letting go of so many of the things that you were when you were 15, I find that incredibly brave because I know how much that meant to you. And also I was like oh yeah, you were standing up really straight already when we were kids and you had a really strong sense of who you were. And so having watched you over the past couple of years really be like okay, actually I want something different for myself and doing all of the work to get there, I'm just really lucky I get to be your friend.

Faith: Aww! Aminatou! So sweet. Air hug! But I do want to say that, you know, we're different people. We are very different people. We don't see things the same way. We don't see everything the same way but I value the person you are. I value the person that you were 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and I always will despite the changes and evolution. Like you said we're not the same people we were in high school. I just want to let you know I'm always in your corner come hell or high water and I just really look forward to life and evolution and growth, whatever that has in store and holds for us. So here's . . . I don't have any, no liquids, no nothing, but I just wanted to let you know that.

(1:06:50)

Aminatou: I know that Faith. You are the best. I'm also just very grateful for you. I can't believe that someone who knew the asshole that I was when I was a teenager still wants to be my friend so that is just shocking truly. But I love you very much and I can't wait for our next adventure and I'm going to call you after this so I can gossip with you about things that are actually more important than this podcast. I love you very much.

Faith: Let's do it. Love you Aminatou.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

[Interview Ends]

Aminatou: Faith, Bridget, legends. Love them so much.

Ann: Ugh, before we go we have a quick request which is that if you're listening to this and thinking about your own high school best friend and maybe you want to call in and tell us a story about that long-running friendship we would love to hear it. If you have a long-term friend you met at some other point in life that's awesome too. We want to hear your stories about making it through a rough patch together and how you've stayed in a long-term friendship. You can leave us a message at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Or you can record a voice memo and email it to us at callyrgf@gmail.com.

Aminatou: I will see you on the Internet boo-boo.

Ann: I'll see you on the Internet.

Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favs. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back, leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf and you can buy our book Big Friendship anywhere you buy books. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We have editorial support from Laura Bertocci. Our producer is Jordan Bailey. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.