Stream Me, Feel Me, Watch Me, Heal Me

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4/17/20 - The legendary Fran Tirado is here to tell us what to watch and where we can stream it.

Fran is a writer, speaker, and one of the hosts of a podcast we love, Food4Thot. He also works at Netflix where he focuses on surfacing the very best queer and trans content. His streaming recommendations are as excellent as the way he wears a signature black turtleneck (iconic).

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll

SHOW TO WATCH

  • Morning Show (Apple TV)

  • Tiger King (Netflix)

  • Elite (Netflix)

  • Casa de Papel (Netflix)

  • Unbelievable (Netflix)

  • Goop Lab (Netflix)

  • Hillary doc (Hulu)

  • Portrait of a Lady on Fire (Hulu)

  • Call My Agent (Netflix)

  • The Hookup Plan (Netflix)

  • La Mante (Netflix)

  • The Invisible Man (Amazon Prime, Google Play, Apple TV)

  • Feel Good (Netflix)

  • Nora from Queens (Comedy Central)

  • The Other Two (Comedy Central)

  • The Leftovers (HBO)

  • The Crown (Netflix)

  • Plot Against America (HBO)

  • Uncorked (Netflix)

  • Ugly Betty (Hulu)

  • I Am Not Okay With This (Netflix)

  • Invisible documentary (Apple TV)

  • Kitchen Confidential

  • Carmen: A Hip Hopera

  • Obsessed

  • Freaks and Geeks

  • Leslie Jordan's Instagram 

  • @Strong Black Lead for Black shows on Netflix

  • @Most for LGBTQ shows on Netflix

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TRANSCRIPT: STREAM ME, FEEL ME, WATCH ME, HEAL ME

[Ads]

(0:25)

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend!

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.

Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman! How're you doing over there?

Ann: Hi Aminatou Sow. I'm over here. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Whoa, you know, the more things change the more nothing changes. [Laughs] Or whatever the pandemic equivalent of that is.

Ann: Truly. Truly, truly, truly. What is on our agenda today?

Aminatou: On our agenda today is a lovely human being. I have the privilege of speaking to friend of the podcast Fran Tirado who is a writer and a speaker. He is also one of the hosts of Food For Thought, a podcast that we love, and he also makes really fun queer shit happen at Netflix and we love Fran.

[Theme Song]

(1:50)

Ann: Ugh, I've been a fan of Fran's -- a Fran Fan if you will -- since his days as executive editor of Hello Mister.

Aminatou: Yes!

Ann: Which is a magazine I really -- was really a fixture of my coffee table. It is not in publication anymore but that is where I feel like I got to know Fran's sensibility and the person who should really be known for a black turtleneck, like let's be honest. Like not Steve Jobs, not Elizabeth Holmes, it is Fran who truly owns that look.

Aminatou: No, Fran -- yes. And it's so iconic that he works in tech now because the turtleneck has . . . you know, he has returned to the real home of the turtleneck. I love it.

Ann: Yeah. Or rather tech is blessed by Fran's interpretation of the turtleneck uniform. They should be just dying of joy frankly.

Aminatou: I know. And this is the thing too about so much of Fran's work is he really brings . . . you know, he makes a lot of really, really, really important things happen behind the scenes. He was a deputy editor at Out. He was the strategist behind a lot of everyone's favorite pride campaigns. Someone who tirelessly works for other people and really lives out his values. And so we are really, really blessed that he's on the show today.

Ann: I can't wait to listen.

[Interview Starts]

Aminatou: Hi Fran, thanks for being on Call Your Girlfriend.

Fran: Hey Amina, how are you? Oh my gosh I miss you so much!

Aminatou: I miss you a lot. One of the hardest things of being locked down is just not . . . it's just not knowing when I'm going to see my friends next. When am I going to see you next?

Fran: Yeah, that's kind of the big question mark. It's hard for me too. I'm like, you know, trying to FaceTime people and say hi and check in and really be there for someone every single day. I think that's kind of my marker is like chat with someone every day I can. That's just going to have to make it work for now. I'm like deeply extroverted and do not understand introverts so this is a difficult time for me.

(4:00)

Aminatou: [Laughs] It's so funny because every night before I go to bed and I make my mental list of who do I need to check in, you know what I mean? You know how it is. Your like family, friends, the faraway network, like you're just doing triage in your head. And I've noticed more and more at the top of my list are all my extroverts. I'm always like pray for the extroverts. [Laughs]

Because I am -- people think that I'm an extrovert but I'm actually an introvert. I'm just an introvert who grew up with extrovert parents and so I know how to fake it. But being like mentally alone right now has not been challenging for me. It has not been challenging yet. But, you know, being inside is hard in so many ways.

Fran: Yeah, it is. I do enjoy solitude. I like the meditative quality that my day-to-day has taken. But yeah, definitely super-duper extrovert. Do not respect my privacy at this time. I need attention. Please. Please invade my privacy and check in on me and all of your extroverted friends always.

Aminatou: Oh my gosh, pray for the extroverts, the real COVID-19 victims. [Laughs] It's so nuts though too. You know how it's just like rewiring all of our brains. You know, it's like what does it even mean to be in touch? Because Ann and I talk about this so much, and you would fall into this category of friend for me since you moved to L.A., of people who are far away so you already kind of have a muscle for checking in with them. Then there are the friends that just -- you know, the friends that you see every day and everything is hard on so many levels. It's like the friends that you see every day, now you can't see them so they've had to move to long distance. The friends that are already long distance I can't stop thinking about when is the next time I'm going to see them in person? And so the mind just reels.

(5:55)

Fran: Yeah. Moving to L.A. was tough but something that made it easier was I was shuttling back to New York every four weeks -- every four to six weeks and seeing my friends and getting my fix, right? And now that that's kind of off the table it is definitely tough.

Aminatou: Remember traveling? Remember passports? [Laughs]

Fran: I know. Remember days of the week? Remember showering every day?

Aminatou: Okay, some of us are still showering every day because that's how you stay sane.

Fran: Right. I'm not sure what my sanity is based in honestly. It's probably just watching TV and group chats. A lot of group chat energy definitely right now.

Aminatou: Aww, I know. Are you getting overwhelmed by the group chats though? Because I am feeling really overtaxed with how much I have to use my phone right now.

Fran: See that is where we differ because my group chats are basically like my IV drip into the extroverted blood. 

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: I've never been more on my phone ever and I -- you know, when we started quarantining I was like I'm going to set my routine. I'm going to have like no phone time at the first hour and the last hour of the day. I set all these goals. And I figured out that my relationship to my phone is so attached to the outer world that it's okay if I -- you know, if I get that little screen time check-in that's like "You've been up 50% this week." I'm like I know. I know. Thank you. You know what I mean?

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: But still trying to read, trying to work on hobbies, have fun. I wanted to keep in touch with my fam but, you know, and I think that penpalship is great but I don't ever want to go to the post office period. I hate the post office.

Aminatou: Wow, Fran, this is really where we differ. The post office is my favorite government agency.

Fran: What? Okay. I don't know if we have time to get into this but let me tell you many an anxiety attack at the post office.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

(7:50)

Fran: I used to -- Food For Thought, my podcast, we had merch for it. I used to have to go to the post office all the time to send merch out. And my trips were so anxiety-inducing that I started bringing this -- there's this little book of Buddhist principles called The Pocket Pema Chodron that I love and I started carrying it to the post office because I was going to read it in line then out because I was so stressed.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: Oh my god. Wow.

Aminatou: Oh my god, Fran, you're like Tina Turner, like nah, I'm gonna get killed (?) at the post office.

Fran: Literally this book -- this book is life-changing though. I really recommend The Pocket Pema Chodron to anybody who has difficulty managing their anxiety or thoughts.

Aminatou: Specifically at the post office.

Fran: Specifically at the post office because it's little. It fits in your pocket.

Aminatou: I'm the opposite. I have a scale at home, print out my own postage. I have stamps from every iconic stamp collection the USPS has ever made.

Fran: Wow.

Aminatou: I am a post office influencer, I don't know how to tell you this.

Fran: [Laughs] Wow, I feel influenced. I love that. Okay, great.

Aminatou: Oh my goodness. Well you said that you've been watching a lot of TV.

Fran: Yes I have.

Aminatou: Tell me all the things you've been watching.

Fran: Yes, of course. I work at Netflix. I guess the disclaimer is I lead our editorial team's conglomerate of queer and trans audiences. So a lot of the things that I watch skew gay or queer or are usually driven with people of color and then I also love . . .

Aminatou: Yes, so all the good stuff, hello.

Fran: Yeah, all the good stuff. And the occasional white excellence right? Like there's the . . .

Aminatou: What's one white excellence?

Fran: I mean Big Little Lies is canon obviously but that's something everyone is watching.

Aminatou: Fair.

Fran: I actually really liked Apple TV's The Morning Show.

Aminatou: Oh I loved Apple TV's The Morning Show. That is white excellence. That is white excellence.

Fran: That is white excellence. It was pure -- I mean I was watching it, I was like this is drag. Like this is drag and like I have a queer lens on this cultural object.

(9:50)

Aminatou: [Laughs] You know the most insane thing about Morning Show is how Jenn Anniston's hair was always in her jacket.

Fran: I noticed that too. Someone said that on Twitter and I was like wow, is this an actorial choice or was this just a mistake on the stylist's part? I just felt the energy.

Aminatou: Jenn Anniston makes no mistakes. That was definitely acting.

Fran: No. Absolutely. I love that I'm leading a streaming guy would watch The Morning Show. I mean I think I would love to start with things that people are already talking about and if you haven't gotten around to it I can kind of confirm whether or not you should watch it, right? And then we can talk about maybe shows that you've slept on. I mean have you watched Tiger King yet Amina?

Aminatou: First of all have I watched Tiger King? Tiger King has everything I love. Nothing makes me happier than when there is a TV show that is full of white people and there are seemingly almost no people of flavor on it because, you know, it's what Ira Madison calls cocoonery and I was like this is cocoonery. Like that's just what's going on here.

Fran: And you love scammers. You love scammers.

Aminatou: I love animal print, I love scammers, but I don't do cats. It takes a lot to shock me but the way that they edited that documentary every new revelation was more shocking than the last revelation which was the most shocking thing I had ever heard of in my life up until that point.

Fran: Yes, nothing in the show could be predicted. As we were saying on Food For Thought if you were in a writing class, like you're writing a screenplay or whatever, if you turn this in as a fiction series your teacher would be like this is not realistic. There are too many plot twists. Your characters are too rich. This is just not working. So if you haven't watched Tiger King go watch it. If you don't like animal abuse don't watch it. It has some animal abuse stuff that's hard to get through but it's not like to the level of Don't Fuck With Cats which I think was really hard to watch.

Aminatou: That was really hard to watch. I watched that right over and I was like whoa, this is heavy.

(12:00)

Fran: Yeah. You like crime dramas though right? Or do you like . . .

Aminatou: I mean I -- you know, I'm one of those people that when you ask them what their favorite music is they say everything including country music. I like everything including country music. [Laughs] So it's not that I like true crime but I watch true crime with a thirst that is very . . . you know, it's very pronounced but also I watch it very critically. So I will tell you now -- I'm going to admit to the entire audience of Call Your Girlfriend and to you that my number one most-watched thing on Netflix is Forensic Files. That's what I watch when I want to turn my brain off. Like every night when I'm going to bed I just turn on Forensic Files then I start doing my like nighttime routine.

Fran: Oh.

Aminatou: Because I'm at the point -- because there's like 100 seasons on Netflix and I've watched so much Forensic Files, Fran, that I'm at the part of Forensic Files where how they're solving the crimes is by catching people because those people watch Forensic Files and try to make the crime better.

Fran: Oh my god. Okay, so let's get into crime stuff. Have you watched Unbelievable on Netflix yet?

Aminatou: Yes, Unbelievable is really, really amazing.

Fran: Oh my god. I think that is one that flew under a lot of people's radars because the title is really forgettable, like it's Unbelievable.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: It is one of the few shows that I've ever watched in one sitting. It's an amazing show that documents a series of rape cases. I will say that the first episode is really, really triggering and tough to get through especially if you're a victim of sexual violence. However this show really, really, really earns itself once you get through the second episode. So I will say if you watch the first episode and it's really tough you will enjoy the rest of the series. It's much less traumatic I will say. But I love that show, so incredible. Also do you watch Elite, Amina?

(13:55)

Aminatou: Oh my god, Spanish teenagers ruining my life.

Fran: So here's the thing, yeah, I love Spanish TV, love Spanish soap operas. They're massive on Netflix and Elite is one of the best ones and truly when you think about it is kind of a true crime drama. I think that, you know, our lord and savior Bong Joon-ho has teached and shown all Americans that we can watch things with subtitles now, right? So if you've been sleeping on Elite or any sort of Spanish crime drama -- I know Amina you watch all foreign TV shows and movies -- but if you were to look at the stats on Netflix everyone watches things with subtitles except for America. It's so bizarre.

Aminatou: Well it's because we like can't read. That's really what's going on. I watch everything with closed captioning, like even just American TV, because I'm so used to just reading things and if I'm looking at a screen and there's not words underneath it really just throws me for a loop. So my closed captioning is on 24/7.

Fran: Yes, so we stand Elite. It's also extremely horn. It's like Spanish Riverdale but much better written than Riverdale, like actually really wonderful characters and plot.

Aminatou: Yeah. If you like Gossip Girl and Riverdale this is the show for you.

Fran: Ugh, so good. Another Spanish drama that kind of falls into the same universe is Casa de Papel.

Aminatou: Yes!

Fran: Oh my god, it's called Money Heist on Netflix, that's the American term, but oh my god if you like Mission Impossible stuff, if you like action or like super-duper intense dramas like that Casa de Papel is one of my favorite things I've ever watched on the screen and the next season is out and you will not be at all disappointed by the show. Just watch one episode and you'll be hooked, I guarantee it.

Aminatou: Yeah. If you like heists this is the movie for you.

Fran: Yes.

Aminatou: The only thing I love more than scams is heists so there you go.

(15:55)

Fran: Yeah. It is the ultimate heist TV show and oh my god does it take you on a ride. So other . . . when I think about true crime I like thinking about shows through a true crime lens even if they're not true crime. Did you watch Goop Lab or Cheer?

Aminatou: Oh my god, so let me tell you, I had not planned on watching Goop Lab when I watched it. I was going to save it for . . . I was going to save it for a time like this honestly where it's like when's going to be a time when I'm going to be home all the time and I just need content?

Fran: Yeah. [Laughs]

Aminatou: And instead I was on a plane flying from L.A. to New York and a woman turned to me and goes "Have you seen Goop Lab?" and I was like "No, I have not seen Goop Lab." Then she said to me, she was like "You have to watch it. There's an episode with a vagina." And I was like what? This is a woman I had never met before Fran. We have had no contact. We were the only two ladies in our cabin and so she started talking to me and I was like I don't understand, what is so compelling about this? I have to say this woman was also a black woman so of course we were talking. And she's like "You have to watch the vagina episode." I'm like what? I've done Vagina Monologues in college, I don't need to watch this. Then she whispers to me "It's a white vagina." [Laughs] And then the plane landed so we all dispersed ourselves and then I watched the Goop Lab episode and I was like oh, maybe this woman is just like me. We had never seen a white vagina before.

Fran: [Laughs] Oh my god, that is so funny and I do think that the entire series can be summed up with the phrase "It's a white vagina" because that is kind of . . . it's very kind of vagina feminism (TM) and if you look at it through the lens of like oh my god, this is insane, it's a bit of a hate-watch in my opinion. I also think that if you look at it through the lens of true crime a lot of these people are criminals. How do you get away with this scammery? But there are parts where I actually got emotional.  I was like oh wow, this is really powerful and meaningful to like women.

(18:00)

Aminatou: I thought it was really powerful and meaningful in parts. I also think that they, you know, the episode about psychedelics I thought was really, really good. I also think that it's okay to hate-watch things because -- and to be clear I do not hate-watch Goop. I read the Goop newsletter as soon as it gets into my inbox.

Fran: Yeah.

Aminatou: Goop to me falls into white excellence. I love Gwyneth Paltrow. I know she's a divisive person in the white community but in the Amina community we love Gwyneth Paltrow. But the thing is I think it's okay to watch all this stuff because I'm watching it with a critical eye towards okay, here's where the science is garbage, here's the whatever, but I do think that it is important in society to understand why so much women's content is like this, you know?

And so when I think about the fact that, you know, women have to basically put vagina -- crystals into their vaginas, because doctors aren't listening to them, you know? Goop does not exist in a vacuum of culture. And so I think that that is worth it. I also think that it is a business that is super-lucrative and is done well so you can feel how you want to feel about Gwyneth Paltrow but I'm like she is someone who built a pretty iconic business and I am always fascinated by how that works. I also think that as television it was really fascinating because the relationship between like Elise, that woman on the show, and Gwyneth, I'm like do these people even like each other? What is going on here? Like it was so phrenetic. 

Fran: Yes, observing the kind of nuances of the way they kind of interacted was very . . . I was fully engaged the entire time I watched that show, it was so insane. Did you watch the Hillary doc on Hulu?

(19:45)

Aminatou: Oh of course, the Hillary doc on Hulu. My mother Hillary Clinton. [Laughter]

Fran: I screamed at the TV, it's so good.

Aminatou: You know the thing about the documentary that I found was so interesting is that I am someone who obviously I'm very steeped in Hillary Clinton knowledge.

Fran: Right.

Aminatou: I think that it was really nice to see all of her accomplishments in one place, you know? Where like something does the history of that where you're just like okay, let's take it from the beginning to the end basically. And so many people I realize don't know that and also I think the way she's -- she's just so herself in it and I think if you like her you are going to like it. If you do not like her you are definitely not going to like this documentary and that's fine.

Fran: Yeah.

Aminatou: But I think there is something so powerful about hearing her tell her own story in her own voice, you know?

Fran: I totally agree and I've heard from people that don't like her that even said -- or had mixed feelings on her that came out of the experience watching it and they were like whoa, I have never known XYZ about her. And I learned things watching the doc. I'm not as steeped in the knowledge but I was shocked by what I didn't know, you know what I mean?

Aminatou: I know but you know a thing that's been really frustrating for me is the people who are like "Why wasn't she like this when she was running for office?" I'm like you're not paying attention. She's always like this.

Fran: She's always like that.

Aminatou: You can accuse Hillary Clinton of anything, you know, like all of the fake murders or whatever. I was like have all your conspiracy theories. One conspiracy theory that does not stick is she is not the exact same person that she's always been. I'm like she's always talked like this, she's always told these stories, and I think that the question is really like what was the rest of America listening to and what do we hear when women are running for office? But that's another podcast.

Fran: Yeah. So consistent. Basically the Rihanna-like consistency in politics.

Aminatou: Oh my gosh, not Rihanna-like consistency.

[Ads]

(24:45)

Aminatou: Do you watch French TV shows on Netflix?

Fran: I haven't yet but I did watch Portrait of a Lady on Fire which is on Hulu. Oh my god, have you watched that movie yet?

Aminatou: I mean the movie about social distancing. Sexual distancing. [Laughs]

Fran: Sexual distancing! Ugh, that movie, I mean Call Me By Your Name sounds dead, that movie is so good. It is so exquisite. It's one of my favorite queer things I've ever watched on a screen. But what French TV shows are you watching?

Aminatou: Okay, so the most iconic French TV show on Netflix is called Call My Agent.

Fran: Okay.

Aminatou: And it's basically a French like if Curb Your Enthusiasm and Entourage and The Office had a baby it would be this.

Fran: My god, that sounds wonderful. I've never even heard of this.

Aminatou: It's so good. Like Juliette Binoche is in it. They have real-life stars. It's about like a group of agents who work for this Paris talent agency that's basically falling apart and so real talent comes in. You have the assistants trying to juggle their own complicated love life. French TV I will say is very hit-or-miss, like the same way that people love French cinema, they're like French new-wave cinema is so good, French people can be so corny and tacky and whatever and it's so reflected in the TV but this is one show I 100 percent recommend. It's very funny.

(26:05)

There is another like very, very, very cheesy French show that is I would say they probably think they're the French version of Girls. It's not as edgy as Girls but it really has its moments and it's called The Hookup Plan.

Fran: Okay.

Aminatou: It's only eight episodes and it's awesome. It's all about, you know, what it's like to be 20-something in Paris and some of it makes me laugh really hard. If you like true crime, like if you like Luther or, I don't know, like Rita, all those other crime shows on Netflix, there's a French one called La Mante and it's really good. It's about this woman who is looking for a vintage serial killer.

Fran: You know what? You need to say no more because you have already said -- I'm gay and you said Juliette Binoche so I am there with French TV. Here for it. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah. Netflix weirdly has a really good catalog of French TV shows.

Fran: Good to know. I forgot to mention this earlier when talking about crime stuff, did you watch Invisible Man?

Aminatou: No. I still have not seen Invisible Man. I've heard mixed reports so tell me what you think.

Fran: Let me tell you I had the lowest -- I saw it in theaters pre-quarantine and I had the lowest expectations ever. I don't go for thrillers. I don't go for horror. The conceit of the movie, like an invisible man that's like stalking a lady, I was like I'm not into that. Oh my goodness, a master class in suspend attention. I was thrilled the entire time. But beyond that a feminist revenge fantasy that I was not expecting.

Aminatou: Say no more. Say no more.

(27:50)

Fran: It's so good. Elizabeth Moss, I mean she is a Scientologist but . . .

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: She was exquisite! I walked out of the movie being floored. If you are at home and you're thinking about, you know, paying the 20 dollars for it or maybe splitting it with a few friends I think it's well worth paying for. I thought it was so good.

Aminatou: That's so funny because all the people that have given me mixed reviews did not mention the feminist revenge fantasy so thank you for knowing exactly the words to tug at my heart.

Fran: [Laughs] It's dark. It is a battle but boy do you root for Elizabeth Moss. Damn it is so good. I'm thinking about shows that maybe people have slept on. I think I might've texted you about this, Feel Good on Netflix is a cute dramedy by May Martin, a story that's by queer women for queer women about queer woman.

Aminatou: Oh.

Fran: It has Fleabag-like energy in that it tackles dark subjects with a very funny tone of voice and every joke is funny to me which is very hard to -- I'm very picky when it comes to funny content. I thought every joke was funny. Really, really enjoyed that. I also loved Nora From Queens, Awkwafina's show.

Aminatou: Aww, so good.

Fran: Yes, so good. My friend Bowen Yang is on it, he's exquisite. It's all available on Amazon if you don't have Comedy Central. I paid for it, I thought it was so worth it. So I really loved those if you're sleeping on them. Did you watch The Other Two that was also on Comedy Central? It's called The Other Two.

Aminatou: No I have not seen that.

Fran: Oh my gosh. When I watched it I was like I cannot remember the last time I enjoyed a comedy as much as I did since like 30 Rock.

Aminatou: Really?

Fran: Yes! It's very -- again like very gay but has Molly Shannon, need I say more? She is . . .

Aminatou: Done. Done and done.

Fran: Yes, it's so good.

(29:45)

Aminatou: Let me sway you with one show that people -- can feel like homework but actually is really good.

Fran: Yes?

Aminatou: Is Leftovers on HBO.

Fran: Ooh, okay.

Aminatou: Man, I'll say Justin Theroux is like worth the price of admission alone.

Fran: Oh yeah.

Aminatou: In every single scene on that show that man is like naked or wet, like it's so worth it. But here's the thing about the show: the first season was really hard to watch. So it's basically about like one day people wake up and half of the population has disappeared so you're like what? What happened? It's made by the same dude who made Lost so choose your own -- make your own conclusions there about how that works out. [Laughs] And to be clear I only watched six episodes of Lost because I couldn't handle it. But with Leftovers here is my strategy: the person who swayed me to watch it, my friend Shawnee was so smart. She knew I wouldn't hang. So she said to me, she was like "Go straight to the second-to-last episode of the first season."

Fran: Oh?

Aminatou: She's like "You're not going to understand anything. Just hang on." She goes "Just hang on. Watch that episode then watch the finale." And she was like season two is amazing. And she was so right. It took me -- I did those two episodes and then I loved season two so much I went back to watch season one to see what I had missed.

Fran: No way.

Aminatou: By the last episode of that show, on the finale episode, the series finale, I cried so hard and I don't remember having that experience with a TV show in I don't even know how long.

Fran: Oh my gosh. Wow, okay, that's kind of sold me. That happened to me with The Crown. I didn't watch all of The Crown then I jumped in season three then went back.

Aminatou: The Crown is white excellence. It's . . . there is not a single person of color and you're like please do not show up on the screen. This is not our world.

Fran: You're like make more -- yes. I mean Tiger King is the same thing where it's just like maybe we don't need representation in this movie. Maybe I'm really glad that everyone is white in Tiger King and it's fine.

Aminatou: [Laughs] It's so true. Here's the only thing I'm going to say about Leftovers. My only caveat is that it's a show about a dystopia so if that is not the mood that you're in during the dystopia we're living in don't engage. But if you want something that is very escapist and also weirdly too close to right now I would say that. I'm also loving Plot Against America on HBO. If you like Ross you will love the show. Zoe Kazan is an amazing actress. Winona Ryder. It's so good. I can't believe this is fiction because it 100 percent feels like living in Trump's America so there is . . . I think it really depends on the kind of moods you're going for but I am really appreciating right now a little bit of dark and hard to watch stuff.

(32:30)

Fran: Hmm. Yeah, I feel that. And I think that if you want the opposite of dark and the opposite of white excellence Uncorked is out on Netflix right now too. It's a really beautiful movie about a guy that's trying to be a sommelier.

Aminatou: Oh my god, done. [Laughs]

Fran: Super simple conceit, a good engine. It's like the story, he's trying to become a sommelier. There are only like 250 master sommeliers in the world and he's the only one basically going up for it who's black. The race doesn't -- it comes into the movie but it doesn't and I think it's just very seamless. It reminds me of the way Euphoria treats race in you have marginalized characters but their oppression doesn't enter the narrative right? It's so auxiliary. And I really appreciate that when I get to see queer and marginalized and black and brown actors who get to portray something other than oppression-based agony, you know what I mean?

Aminatou: So real.

Fran: I appreciate shows like that. Which reminds me, I was just going to say one more, Invisible which is on Apple TV is a docu-series about queer representation in TV. I cried on average twice per episode. It was so beautiful, strongly recommend. I am weirdly an Adam Lambert stan now so like . . .

Aminatou: Aww, wow. The end of the world. [Laughs]

(33:50)

Fran: Okay, Amina, I went to the Kinsey Institute. I've studied queer people in sex and gender for almost a decade now. I've clocked my 10,000 hours on queer and trans people right? I thought I knew everything about queer representation in TV. The things I did not know, I was so shocked. If you enjoy a historical docu-series or queer stuff Invisible on Apple TV was worth every episode.

Aminatou: Oh man. Okay, you've convinced me to do that. One thing that you made me think of when you were talking about Uncorked is the first thing -- the reason I got Hulu in the first place years ago when I was living in Washington, D.C. in this basement apartment -- is because there was this show with Bradley Cooper called Kitchen Confidential. It only has one season.

Fran: Oh my god.

Aminatou: It's obviously about Anthony Bourdain. Like I'm pretty sure Bradley Cooper's character was called Jack Bourdain. It's so nuts. [Laughs]

Fran: Oh my god, love. Iconic.

Aminatou: And it's about this chef who, you know, it's like he boozes too much, he's like a womanizer, there's drugs, whatever. The show was so bad, y'all. The show was so bad. I don't even know if this is streaming anywhere on the Internet but if you can find it it's called Kitchen Confidential with Bradley Cooper. If you want to watch absolute trash this is it.

Fran: Iconic. You know, the reason that I signed up for Hulu is because they acquired Ugly Betty and I was like oh my god, I need to re-watch this stat. Are you an Ugly Betty stan? Is that why . . .

Aminatou: I am such an Ugly Betty stan that I re-watched most of it last year.

Fran: Can I be -- I am not being flip when I say this. I'm not exaggerating. Ugly Betty created me. She is so formative to my career in general. I watched that show as a teen and she has a queer sensibility to her in that she doesn't fit in at all but also she's a Latina and I was like "I'm a Latina!" and she's working in media and editors hated her and the industry spit on her. I was like "I want to work in the industry! I want to be spit on!" You know what I mean? But her success in media was something that drove me as a marginalized person to enter the industry. So she literally -- she inspired me so hard. I stan Ugly Betty even though it has some very transphobic ideas in it. But that said all my trans friends love Ugly Betty which is shocking to me because there's some massive transphobia in that show. But I still . . .

(36:30)

Aminatou: It's so -- the transphobia of it all is so ugly and it's so shocking because you're like a show can be so progressive in some way, like Mark's coming out in Ugly Betty is iconic. Justin's coming out, iconic. Justin and Austin kissing in Ugly Betty is so good.

Fran: It is.

Aminatou: And it's just really painful that you can have these really beautiful moments, you know, of celebration and then trans people are the butt of the joke. It's so . . . it's really gross that we do that and we do it over and over and over again in our culture.

Fran: That said Ugly Betty, oh my goodness, so good.

Aminatou: Ugly Betty. Now I'm trying to figure out a show from that era that I really -- 2005 was such a good TV year. Did you ever watch Brothers and Sisters on ABC?

Fran: I did not actually. You know what's so funny is I think a big part of the reason I consume so much now is I kind of grew up in a cultural vacuum, like my mom's side of the family is all fundamentalist Baptists and Christians. So I grew up thinking that Christian music -- I was so sheltered that I thought Christian music was just music, like I thought that's what everyone was listening to.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: And there's so many things I was cut off from growing up. Like I just watched Clueless for the first time last week because I'm catching up on all these cultural objects I missed out on.

(37:55)

Aminatou: Oh my god, Fran, how was your Clueless experience?

Fran: Oh my god, it was amazing. I also watched Legally Blonde for the first time the day before.

Aminatou: [Gasps]

Fran: I know, I know! This is so -- I consume so much in the contemporary world and then there's this big blackout of things that I missed when I was growing up as a teenager. So, you know, I missed out on some things. Ugly Betty was kind of one of my first forays into the culture. That and Destiny's Child and taking out an album from the library and being like oh my god, this is music.

Aminatou: You should watch Beyoncé in Carmen: A Hip Hopera.

Fran: Oh yes, oh my god, I absolutely should. Or her in Obsessed honestly. I wonder where that's streaming. She's iconic.

Aminatou: Oh, Obsessed. Ann and I saw Obsessed -- or I saw Obsessed like three times before I went to see it with Ann. We had just become friends. It was truly the week that we became friends that that came out and it's to this day one of my favorite movies. If it's on TV I will always turn it on because it makes no sense. Just the whole thing makes no sense. Beyoncé's entire cinematic body of work, it's so tragic. [Laughs] And I'm like thank god you can sing because this would've been such a problem.

Fran: I will say the one show that I love from yore, 1999, is Freaks and Geeks. Did you ever watch that?

Aminatou: Did I ever watch that? Hello. Freaks and Geeks is formative. Formative.

Fran: Oh my god, a perfect -- a perfect TV show. One season, that's all it needed to be, about teenagers who are horny and don't understand themselves. Oh my god, it's just so relatable. I work in entertainment but I also am trying to write shows and write movies and that's what I do in my spare time. Shows like Freaks and Geeks are like the show that I want to watch. Have you heard about I Am Not Okay With This on Netflix?

Aminatou: No, what's I Am Not Okay With This?

(39:45)

Fran: Oh my god, it has Freaks and Geeks-ish energy. It's kind of like lesbian Matilda but as a TV show.

Aminatou: What?

Fran: Yes, it's amazing. It's like John Hughes energy, bright '90s/early aughts like energy meets Stranger Things-esque paranormal activity and the lead is queer. I love it. I came out of the experience of watching that again feeling like oh my god, that's the show I want to write. That's the show that I want to see. That's everything that I stand for. I love shows like that, so strongly recommend I Am Not Okay With This. Lesbian Matilda.

Aminatou: Lesbian Matilda. I mean Matilda is very formative to me. Like how Ugly Betty is for you Matilda was for me.

Fran: Oh my gosh, I feel that energy from you so hard.

Aminatou: How are you deciding what you want to watch? Because I am finding that I have more moments in the day where I can stream things, I can watch things, and I get really overwhelmed with deciding the path I want to go down. Usually my criteria is how do I want to feel and how much time do I have? And I think it's probably why I watch so much TV. I cannot watch 90 minutes of a movie but I can watch nine 30-minute TV episodes. I don't know why my brain is wired that way but I am definitely finding that I am super overwhelmed with how to pick something.

Fran: You know, that's a really good question. It's two things. One, I trained my algorithms really hard so my Netflix "list" and my Hulu "list" I scrubbed clean and re-added all of the gay shows, right? Any time I click on something I'm like is it gay? I just Google like is there gay stuff in this? So like I know what I like.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: Honestly me at work, working at Netflix, it's like any time someone sends me a memo announcing a new show I just respond to the email, I'm like "Is it gay though?" You know what I mean? That's just how I find out about things at Netflix. I think that that's a big part of it. The algorithm can serve you if you train it to collect the things you want to watch. But the other thing is other than that I don't really do discovery. I only go by recommendations from friends. So I never would've watched Tiger King. Not at the intersection of my interests. I mean it is gay but I was like not a thing I would . . .

(42:00)

Aminatou: It's so gay Fran but also is it gay, you know what I mean?

Fran: It is sociopathic gay. I mean my favorite thing on the planet is evil women and evil gays and this show has both! So I stan. I stan evil gays and evil women. Any villainy in that regard I totally love. But it took someone to recommend that to me in order to get it. Trust the recommendations of your friends and people who have interests. Other than that I don't read the press Amina.

Aminatou: [Laughs] You're not reading the viral TV press every day?

Fran: Yeah. Because I work in entertainment now, you know, consumption is part of the job so I do consume a lot because it's "market research" and it's me learning how to do my job. And a lot of times with the things that I do at Netflix I need to have a context of the show or have a context of the shows that are like it in order to help put it out to my audience so I think there are a lot of things that go into it. But yeah, I just keep things on tap. I have a running list on my phone of things that I'm excited to watch and I kind of try and go in that order so the next time I get to . . . because you know the paradox of Netflix, right, is there are too many things on the service so when I go to the service I have no idea what to pick. And so a big part of my job, just working at editorial, is helping queer and trans people find the titles that they love. So if you subscribe to Netflix's editorial channel site -- this is very like promotional.

Aminatou: No, I love it.

Fran: But we have different audience leads that curate the shows you love. So my friend Jasmine is kind of a counterpart. She runs strong black lead which is all our black titles and shows that center on black stories. And if you go to their Twitter or their Instagram it's basically like black TV guide right? Like back in the days of Jet Magazine when they used to print every kind of black person that comes on TV that week, that used to be on the back page of weekly Jet Magazine, this is the new-age version of that of how we do shows. So figure out what niche you fall into and find audience channels that curate shows for you. Yeah. And our channel @Most, if you follow @Most, is kind of the queer TV guide. So if you're queer or like queer TV shows follow that channel and I'll help you find shows that you love.

(44:25)

Aminatou: The shows are so fun. I have to say one of the things I am trying to do in quarantine is everyone just has like a running list of all the content they've ever been dying to watch. I'm like if you haven't seen The Wire this is probably your chance, you know?

Fran: Right.

Aminatou: Just do the thing. But I think when I started looking at that running list that I keep on my phone all the time it was really important to me to make it count for something, you know? And so I went back and I re-edited it down to be like I like to watch foreign things so I'm going to keep watching the foreign shows that I want to catch up on. Because, you know, like the same way you were saying you're doing market research and you need to know about things I am really tired of not knowing what the rest of the world is laughing about or crying about or whatever. It's like this is something that is important to me.

Fran: Right.

Aminatou: And also I put a lot of queer shows and queer movies on that list because it's important to me to support the people who make that content because I also think that, you know, it's quarantine but your viewership matters. You know, the way that we're spending our money and our time and our attention is so important and it's been such a bomb to me to be like oh, I can see people like me on the screen and I can feel good consuming that and making sure there is an industry to return to for everyone in the future. It's the double-edged sword of like there is too much content. Like it's true, there is too much content across all of the streaming services. But I think that in the too much content I also just need to remember there is a kind of content I need to support both for political and cultural reasons.

Fran: Right.

(46:00)

Aminatou: And so it's been, you know, the algorithm makes me feel good about that.

Fran: That's right. And all that is to say don't watch Westworld. It's homework.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: Don't punish yourself into watching shows that feel like homework, okay? You know what I mean?

Aminatou: Oh my god, Fran, this is so divisive. I'm in a group chat where everyone watches Westworld except for me and for years I'd just do thumbs up whenever they'd go into their Westworld avatars. And finally someone exposed me the other day, they were like "Amina have you even seen one episode of Westworld?" And I was like I can't believe you're choosing COVID-19 time to have a trial on whether I watch Westworld or not and clearly the answer is no. I think I tried to watch the pilot, like truly I turned it on for five minutes and it is exactly the kind of show that is not for me. Like it's . . .

Fran: Yeah.

Aminatou: I'm not saying I don't like to use my brain when I watch television, quite the opposite, but there is a kind of fantasy weird world -- just it was too much. It was too much and I couldn't handle it and I was like I do not need to be a part of this train ride. And I can't believe the show is still on the air.

Fran: Yeah.

Aminatou: And so for years I've had to not participate in Westworld conversations.

Fran: Yeah, I've still -- same thing with Witcher on Netflix. I've tried to watch that show four times. Oh my god, I cannot get through it.

Aminatou: No. I don't even know what the Witcher is about. I hear people talk about the Witcher song and I cannot -- you know, choose your Witcher or whatever. I was like I cannot be part of this.

Fran: [Laughs] Your Witcher -- yeah. That said group chats do sway me sometimes. Like it's because of a group chat that I actually decided to watch Invisible Man. I think someone in the group chat was like "It's called Invisible Man and it's true to its word. The man is not there -- is not in the movie."

Aminatou: [Laughs]

(47:50)

Fran: And I was like wow, sold. No man in this movie? Great. Sounds great. So that was something that, you know, sometimes group chats can sway me. But Westworld I will never come over. Also, wait, non-TV related but things everyone should watch. Are you watching Leslie Jordan's Instagram by any chance? Have you seen this?

Aminatou: No. Tell me about Leslie Jordan's Instagram.

Fran: I'm sorry, this is off-topic but I'm thinking about this. He was in American Horror Story but everyone knows him, he was this kind of villainous kind of closeted gay character in Will and Grace. Just an old queen -- or queen of a certain age and he has been doing a lot of front-facing videos on Instagram in quarantine. He just tells stories. And it's just kind of that perfect very endearing person of a certain age trying to . . .

Aminatou: Oh is this the old man that everyone is posting? Sold.

Fran: Yes, yes, yes. It is so -- if you just go in and watch every single video that's on his feed right now, oh my god, that is better than Westworld honestly.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Better than Westworld is the tagline everyone is going for.

Fran: Yeah, don't watch Westworld. Watch Leslie Jordan's Instagram stories or Instagram videos. They're so incredible, I strongly recommend.

Aminatou: Ugh, Fran, you just made my day.

Fran: Here for it. Here for you.

Aminatou: I feel like we have such a long list of things to catch up on. I'm going to do my homework and I will report back because I'm so excited for this and if the audience takes anything away from today I just hope that Elite shoots to the top of everyone's to watch lists.

Fran: Oh my gosh. And also honestly I love being your viewing concierge. So if you want to follow up on any of these things I love talking about them. I have more spare time than any moment in my life. Tweet at me, get in my DMs, let me know what you thought.

Aminatou: Where can we find you on the Internet?

(49:45)

Fran: You can find me @FranSquishCo on social media. That's Fran Squish Co. You can also follow my podcast @Food4Thot. That's food, the number four, and thought spelled T-H-O-T. Very important distinction.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Fran: It's a queer podcast about sex and relationships so if you like queer stuff, relationship stuff . . .

Aminatou: It's a very good podcast.

Fran: Aww, thanks Amina. I appreciate that.

Aminatou: Ugh, Fran, you are the best. Thank you for being a friend to the show and for being a friend to me. We love you so much and I hope that you have a really, really lovely rest of your day.

[Interview Ends]

Aminatou: Fran Tirado everyone! The best.

Ann: Ugh, how are we so lucky? How are we do blessed, truly?

Aminatou: Ugh, you know, I don't know but I'm going to hold onto it. I am also blessed to know you Ann Friedman so I will see you on the Internet.

Ann: Ugh, hard same. See you on the Internet.

Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.
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