Can a Woman be President?
1/24/20 - Coffee is a hard drug. MLK Day is a mindf*ck, especially when brands, the FBI, and the GOP chime in. RIP Mr. Peanut. And the cumulative impact of being told that your gender or race will stop you from reaching your goal, when that goal is the presidency.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Mr Peanut, gay capitalist
20% of women say a woman cannot win the presidency
Rebecca Traister on the "can a woman be president?" question
TRANSCRIPT: CAN A WOMAN BE PRESIDENT?
[Ads]
(0:25)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: She's Ann Friedman.
Ann: She's Aminatou Sow! On today's episode we are talking about MLK misremembered, the death of Mr. Peanut, and that age-old question can a woman be elected president of the United States of America?
[Theme Song]
(1:15)
Aminatou: Hi, how's it going?
Ann: Uh, I'm pretty good over here.
Aminatou: You know I'm so cozy over here. I'm drinking this jasmine tea that I'm super into so I feel 2000 years old.
Ann: What about jasmine tea is like a 2000 year old person?
Aminatou: Jasmine tea specifically always makes me feel old. As you know I'm a tea drinker. I don't do coffee drugs even though I dabbled recently and as you know it ended badly.
Ann: Oh my god, I actually feel like this is worth mentioning on the show because it's a cautionary tale.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Which is we were on our way to do our final book revisions in the desert and high on the agenda of what we had to accomplish this week we stopped at a Starbies -- shout-out to my mother Paula Friedman who always sends us Starbies cards to keep us caffeinated on the road.
Aminatou: Oh my god, thank you Paula Friedman.
(2:05)
Ann: [Laughs] But we both ambitiously ordered large beverages late into the day and the physical ramifications were real. Like I will just speak for myself as someone who does coffee drugs every day: it was like a new level of intensity. I don't know, maybe because I got some sugar in it? But I was wired. And you had a psychedelic experience.
Aminatou: I mean so the people need to know that I drink two coffees a year maximum and they are watered-down iced coffees. It's whenever I'm having a day that I'm like I need to feel like a mainstream lady out in America I'll order an iced coffee.
Ann: Can I offer a counterpoint as someone who has been with you?
Aminatou: Yes.
Ann: I also feel like you are iced latte whenever there is a task at hand that you're like ooh, gotta get the body on board with this agenda. Yeah.
Aminatou: But Ann don't you think that this is so dumb? Because 1) I am lactose-intolerant so I have no business drinking iced lattes out here even if the milk is the good kind of milk. Like it's offensive to my body chemistry that I do this. And also I think that the real truth of the iced latte, this is like that feeling of do you remember right when you turned 21 and you would go to a bar and you wouldn't know what to order?
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: Which for me always ended up in like 7 and 7, you know? Something I . . .
Ann: That's the only reason I've ever had a screwdriver. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Exactly. You're just like standing there at the bar and you don't know what to do and you're like what did someone in a movie drink once? Or what's a drink that someone has mentioned in front of me?
Ann: Totally.
Aminatou: When I am in a coffee shop that's the constant feeling for me. And so I don't know what your -- you know, whenever you and Gina are ordering coffees I'm like oh my god, they have three names. I don't know how to do this. I literally just learned that espresso is two Ss and not an X. This is where I am coming from in the coffee culture. And so a latte was always this very easy I will always remember that but I don't think I knew what was in a latte instead of milk. And I also erroneously assumed that because it's a milk drink it's not as strong a coffee drink.
Ann: [Laughs]
(4:10)
Aminatou: Anyway all of this is what collided into me having the worst coffee day of my life.
Ann: Also I feel compelled to note for the record that it wasn't just a coffee panic what do I order? You ordered a vente, i.e. the one that is the size of an outdoor construction bucket. Like a truly large coffee.
Aminatou: Ann, it's the same thing! It's like I don't know what the words mean. I'm being so vulnerable with you right now. It was just the panic of I was at the bar and the bartender was like what do you want? And, you know, I'm like cocaine, please, two of them in a vente cup. And you're talking to someone who does drug drugs and also does like study drugs. Coffee is bad.
Ann: Coffee is my study drug. I still remember when there was, 15 years ago, there was a very funny, stuffy New Yorker article about college kids doing Adderall as a study drug and it had that tone of sort of like an out-of-touch New York Times trend piece, you know? It was so funny. And they had a quote near the very end of the article from a health expert who was sort of dismissing this as something people should be worried about and was essentially like yeah, yeah, coffee's a hard drug too. Drinking a bunch of coffee on an empty stomach is the same thing as doing some Adderall. And I was like my commitment to coffee is renewed. [Laughter] I felt so empowered by that statement. I was like hmm, without a prescription I can continue to do my favorite drug to help me concentrate.
Aminatou: Listen, two things. One, whenever I see people drinking black coffee and they're pouring into the cup I'm just like oh wow, you're doing heroin. That's how I feel. And two, because I know my doctor listens to this podcast, I do study drugs sanctioned by a doctor. Not for recreation purposes. So I just feel like I really need to put that out there. As you know my favorite song by Drake, Strengthen My Veins. (?)
Ann: [Laughs]
(6:05)
Aminatou: This has been too long in the coffee interlude but I just need the people to know coffee is a hard drug and truly I don't understand how it's not regulated.
Ann: Right, and I feel the same thing but with a different tone. I need the people to know coffee is a hard drug and I am so happy it's not regulated. [Laughter] I feel the exact same sentiment but with a different tone.
Aminatou: So we're drinking tea today.
Ann: I'm drinking water to be honest right this moment, so hey.
Aminatou: Well what are we talking about today?
Ann: On our agenda today is we're going to talk a little bit about MLK day as an institution and also as a thing that inspires a lot of "sharing" on the Internet. We're going to talk about whether a woman can be president, LOLOL but seriously.
Aminatou: It was just MLK day. How was yours?
Ann: You know, how was it? My MLK day was frankly a standard workday I am sad to admit to you. It was really just a get my head back into the game. I used it the way I think a lot of people use a three-day weekend that is a federal holiday that no one is making them think harder or do more about which is to say I caught up on sleep and I caught up on work. How was your MLK day?
Aminatou: You know it was kind of the best of both worlds in that I got to do a volunteer project which is how I like to spend my MLK day but it was only for a couple hours in the morning and then I got to catch up on the rest of just setting my life up. And my feelings about MLK day are always very strong when I work in a corporate setting where I really feel that it is racist to make me work on this holiday.
Ann: [Laughs]
(7:45)
Aminatou: And when I work for myself I really feel that it's body's choice. So, you know . . .
Ann: That is true. You are contributing to a corporation owned by a black woman in this country every time you work for yourself.
Aminatou: Yeah! And it's also the kind of thing where MLK day to me is just a very wild . . . like 1) I'm shocked that America even acknowledges MLK day, like the America of today. You know, in a sense where I'm like okay here is a . . . on its face it's actually a really good thing and it does genuinely surprise me that there is a black revolutionary that people -- and by people I mean white people -- are like great, maybe this one belongs in the canon. But at the same time they've neutered the message so much it makes sense that they're okay with it. So it's like MLK day is always kind of a mind-fuck.
Ann: Right. And it's also, especially in like our heyday of social media where institutions -- everything from every fast food restaurant to the FBI is tweeting about how isn't it amazing that it's MLK day? And it's sort of like . . .
Aminatou: The FBI tweet was wild. It was wild. It's like excuse me, didn't you send MLK a letter that he should kill himself? Why do you get to celebrate MLK day? Whew.
Ann: Yeah. It is really -- and also to be totally honest if there had been some kind of public and systematic reckoning with the policies toward civil rights activists and leaders maybe it would be okay to say something like that. Like you do get to acknowledge the contribution of people if you also acknowledge the ways in which you actively worked against them at the time, or if you actively acknowledge your role in their demise frankly. You know what I mean? If.
Aminatou: "If" doing so much work in that sentence. [Laughs]
Ann: If.
Aminatou: I agree with you, yeah.
Ann: I think that's important. Yeah.
Aminatou: No, I agree with you. And I think the capitalism of it, so the brands and whatever, that's a mind-fuck because so much of MLK's agenda was actually about economic freedom for everyone right? And so that's one leg of the stool. The other leg of the stool is the political angle. It is truly wild to me, and I don't say this facetiously at all, like it really genuinely exploding head, that's how I feel about it, when Republicans quote MLK.
Ann: Oh my god.
(10:15)
Aminatou: And he has become this very kind of gentle figure. It's how almost every city has an MLK Street in the black part of town. And you're like okay, I see what's going on here. Very few Malcolm Xs but a lot of MLK Streets. But with Republicans specifically you crusaded against this person, definitely have a hand in his demise, and also you actively hate everything that he stands for. But out of context you've found two lines you can quote all the time and even those two lines taken out of context are not things -- they're not practicing what they preach. I'm like how is the ghost of MLK not haunting all these people? When I think about it too much it's actually very painful and hurtful. And so staying in this place of suspended disbelief is how I keep my mind intact.
Ann: Right. But it's also related to -- I mean it is totally inextricable from how the civil rights movement and how race more broadly are taught in a lot of environments. I would say every environment of America that is not actively kind of radically anti-racist, the lessons about MLK from my upbringing were definitely contextualized by the modern moments. So if you read quotes from his speeches or if you hear about things he advocated as a kid in the '80s and '90s who was growing up in a real racial wealth and privilege bubble it's like oh yeah, all that stuff he's doing sounds totally reasonable. Of course the FBI wouldn't have hated that. It really fits with a failure to properly contextualize a lot of other things that are going on with race and inequality in this country. It's so telling that that quote the FBI tweeted is the time is always right to do what is right.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(12:00)
Ann: It's like it's truly . . . and it's not just out of context but it's almost like they did a search for the most innocuous possible quote and then Twitter, perfect medium for putting things out there which just sound generally okay without actually supporting them. It's like yeah, at the time doing what was right was actually against the written law. You know what I mean?
Aminatou: Right.
Ann: Actually doing what was right then. And when it's tweeted by an institution like the FBI it makes it sound like doing what's right is upholding your "American values" and the institutions that are actually perpetuating this stuff. It is really . . . [Sighs]
Aminatou: I know. And then the other side of this for me is also watching very well-meaning, kind of moderate people, not brands, not like super politically inclined people, also thinking this is a quote -- it's a day to fire up the quote machine. It's just such an ahistorical read of this person. It's like actually MLK is one of the -- I'm like if you love him so much name his five best albums.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know, one of the common refrains from him is that the white moderate is actually very harmful to the cause and a huge hindrance of the civil rights movement. This was literally just a couple decades ago and how quickly that history has been rewritten concerns me a lot and it concerns me a lot the way we learn history in school and the way we talk about it out of school and just the way we neuter a lot of pretty radical leftist people. It's like when you think about Rosa Parks it's the same thing for me.
Ann: Ugh, yes.
Aminatou: Where she's just -- she's now in the American historical canon as this really nice grandma who needed to sit down. I'm like are you kidding me? This woman was like a rape investigator first of all.
Ann: She was a strategist, yeah.
Aminatou: A shit-starter. Yeah, she was a shit-starter. She was doing it forever. She was not the first woman who took a stance by sitting on a bus during the civil rights movement. It's actually very telling of American society that she's the one that got noticed for doing it. This was just decades ago and if we're already lying about this what else are they lying to you about that happened before that? There's something very insidious and ugly about it and very much like I -- I know there is so much that I don't understand about MLK. And I also, on a personal level, it's a very difficult figure to even get around because stuff at home was complicated with him. And then the stuff that you see on the screen, and there's a kind of particular sexism of that era even within the civil rights movement that is so hard to square against the ideals of freeing people from capitalism and freeing people from slavery and all these things. There's just so much texture there and to have it all being reduced to watching people share quotes, it's wild. It's wild.
(14:45)
Ann: Right. I remember being in journalism school and reading for the first time the kind of contemporaneous accounts of how the civil rights movement was covered, not just by the major papers in the south for example but by the New York Times. And it was greatly informative of how I read the news as a critical person now and greatly informative of how I think about the possibility of "objective" news and how I think about the golden age of how these stories were told. And you can really start to draw a line between oh right, even at the time his story was told or not told in this very specific way and it's like no wonder we get to this place where it is completely distorted.
Aminatou: Whew. Well see you next year at MLK day.
Ann: Yes. See you on the quote machine -- in the quote machine.
Aminatou: Well let's take a little break.
[Ads]
(18:18)
Aminatou: Mr. Peanut has died, RIP.
Ann: Okay. I saw this trending on Twitter and I was just like I literally saw it -- saw it, looked at it, closed the window again in one swift move. In one swift move.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Well here's -- someone sent it to me because . . . and I truly don't care about Mr. Peanut but the reason is because I'm obsessed with Twitter display names and the Mr. Peanut account has changed their display name to be The Estate of Mr. Peanut and I thought that was hilarious. [Laughter]
Ann: Oh my god. Honestly of course this guy in the top hat and monocle has The Estate of Mr. Peanut on Twitter. Goodbye.
Aminatou: I know! But it's also definitely -- I don't want to click on it because it definitely has to be some sort of brand activation.
Ann: Oh it totally is.
Aminatou: It's like he sacrificed himself to save his friends when they needed him the most at 104. I'm like what kind of weird ad are you guys running now? But also like a bold move to kill the face of your brand. As I said to my friend roast in peace.
Ann: Do you know Mr. Peanut's full name?
Aminatou: No, Mr. Peanut has a full name?
Ann: Mr. Peanut has . . . [Laughs] Mr. Peanut is his street name, is his advertising name.
Aminatou: So what's his government name?
Ann: His proper name is Bartholomew Richard Fitzgerald Smith.
Aminatou: Well okay, you also know that Mr. Peanut is gay right?
Ann: I mean I could've guessed.
Aminatou: He's a gay capitalist. He's a gay capitalist with a problematic legacy. I'm reading this headline from MEL Magazine. [Laughs]
(19:55)
Ann: Here's what I do appreciate about Mr. Peanut is he's really just naked, you know what I mean? He's not even Donald Ducking it. Like Mr. Peanut is just . . .
Aminatou: No, he's Mr. Peanutting it. Also I'm sorry, this MEL thing is hilarious. I'm going to read it to you. The headline is The Problematic Legacy of Mr. Peanut, Gay Capitalist. [Laughs] The description. "Out and proud or not Mr. Peanut has lived for a century as a slave-trading aristocrat selling his fellow legumes to a gruesome death by mastication."
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: You know I do always find it weird whenever food brands use the food as the face of the food, you know? It's like why are they eating themselves?
Ann: Like barbecue places called Mr. Oinkers or whatever? Yes.
Aminatou: I know, ugh. Also Planters as a brand name has never set well with me.
Ann: Mm-hmm. I mean it is just too close for comfort to plantation.
Aminatou: I just love a monocle, you know what I mean? That's the problem.
Ann: Ugh. [Laughter] I'm just trying to find my way back. I'm like groping in the darkness to find my way back to something that feels not just an absurdist tangent.
Aminatou: I know. I feel the closest political thing to Mr. Peanut is probably Pete Buttigieg so, you know, speaking of Mr. Planet, speaking of Pete Buttigieg, speaking of the election, what do you think about what's going on right now? [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god. Is -- okay, I actually feel this is . . . is it Pete Buttigieg? I don't know. I think you're being swayed by the assessment that he's a gay capitalist.
Aminatou: I know, but he's like 100 percent Pete Buttigieg. Like same height, same, you know, McKenziness, um . . . you know, but also a little bit of Andrew Yang energy I have to say.
Ann: The aesthetic is off. The aesthetic is just off, I'm sorry. The bio points line up but the aesthetic is not there.
Aminatou: That's how Pete Buttigieg fans feel, Ann, the aesthetics are not there so there you go.
(21:54)
Ann: I mean people who judge the aesthetics of Midwestern microbrew . . . like wedding at a Midwestern microbrewery is kind of like the Pete Buttigieg campaign aesthetic.
Aminatou: Wow, that is taking me out. That is -- wow.
Ann: I feel like we have to talk about whether a woman can be president in the year 2020.
Aminatou: I mean I -- you know, I go back-and-forth on this. On one hand we keep getting closer and closer and on the other hand sometimes I go to bed and I think the woman who is going to be president is probably not even born yet.
Ann: [Sighs] Yeah, I think we kind of . . . I was not eager to talk about this whole exchange between Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren wherein he claims that he was just like "Listen, it's going to be hard for anyone to beat Trump because he's real bad and will say dirty, terrible things about any aspect of your identity that he can." And Elizabeth Warren heard "I don't think a woman is going to be elected president in this country," or says that is what was conveyed. I am of the camp that much like many things in which meaning is as much inferred as it is overt and on-the-table that they both are probably 100 percent secure in this is exactly what I heard/this is exactly what I said and also that they are both right which is to say my feeling has always been the biggest barrier to a woman becoming president is people thinking no one else will vote for a woman. The statistics are essentially women -- there's a CNN poll from this week that shows 20 percent of women saying a woman cannot win and only 9 percent of men saying a woman cannot win. And that is partially rooted in some truth, women being like we know when push comes to serve men don't think specific woman are up to this job. But I also think that there's just this sense of like despair that has set in and rightfully so and it's easier to kind of externalize that despair on everyone else rather than say like I personally wouldn't do this.
(24:00)
Aminatou: I mean I 100 percent agree with you and friend-of-the-pod Rebecca Traister wrote about this I thought in a really smart way in The Cut. And the gist of her piece which I thought was so -- is basically the point that you're making is worrying that it'll make it tough for women in politics, like thinking that, doesn't make someone sexist which is what Bernie Sanders is saying.
Ann: Right. That's different from saying I won't vote for a woman right?
Aminatou: Right. That is different. It's not sexist. It's one of those things where I'm like they're both right. So worrying that women are going to have a hard time in politics doesn't make Bernie Sanders sexist. But for women to hear every day -- like for them to hear those worries all of the time and to metabolism them and also to see how discouraging it is doesn't make Elizabeth Warren a liar. And so it's a very kind of interesting conversation to have because right, everyone kind of imbues their own meaning into what they're talking about but at the same time this conversation to me is fascinating because it's obviously happening on the left and to have so many people on the left cry that their candidate is being called a sexist and he's a misogynist and blah, blah, blah which is clearly not all that's going on here is -- that worries me in terms of . . . I'm like if we're not getting this conversation right we're not going to get this conversation right in a national election.
And I think that Rebecca's point also, that was something I haven't stopped thinking about and it's this line that she wrote in the article about how talking in any kind of honest way about marginalization becomes a trap for the marginalized is something that is so . . . that has stayed with me since I read this. Because to me that is the crux of the matter. It's why can you -- and by you I mean like we -- why can't we be honest about how things are hard for people? No one is calling anyone sexist or misogynist. I'm like we actually have the words for that and when we want to call you sexist or misogynist we can just do that. But I think that it's so silly on its face to make women feel that it's going to be hard for them to be president for reasons that have nothing to do with personality. It's hard. If it wasn't hard we would've already had a woman president.
(26:20)
And it's also hard to have this conversation and not think of the backdrop of the last election, right, where everybody was very much like here are the specific problems with Hillary Clinton and they have their own feelings about that. And not recognizing also that the reason that that woman gets to be the first woman who can run in a real way for president is because she's a circumstance of every way that sexism has shaped politics in her time. Of course you have to be married to a former president to run as the first woman president. Of course you have to have this kind of access. Of course. It's not a coincidence that the next woman who's running for president is literally a teacher and sounds like Tracy Flick. I was like these are the ways that women exceed to power. If it was not the case we would be having a different kind of conversation altogether.
Ann: Yeah, and it's funny, when you said last election I was actually -- I had been thinking a lot more about how 2008 felt, specifically when you made that comment about how pointing out this kind of deep bias and unfairness always does not work out well for the people who are actually suffering as a result of that bias and unfairness. It made me think of an essay that Adam Serwer wrote back in 2008 about Barack Obama and about how any attempt to point out not even people as racist but pointing out tropes as racist or pointing out comments as racist or pointing out assumptions as racist immediately became a negative thing against Obama. And he wrote something very astute which is when the narrative is dominated by white people and the common white experience is of being accused of racism as opposed to experiencing the hurt and pain of actually being on the receiving end of it it is going to be the default of the discourse to kind of say oh, what about the horrible experience of being accused?
(28:12)
I've been thinking about that a lot with relation to this Warren and Sanders thing where it's like immediately it cannot be as you said a conversation that is a really serious reckoning with the messages that women are given about their electability. It has to immediately become a defense that Bernie isn't sexist in the same way that a lot of those conversations when people pointed out things that were fucked up about how Obama was being described or treated were immediately characterized as how dare you call someone racist as a result of this? It feels like it is not an exact parallel but I have been thinking a lot about that piece and about 2008 in particular because man.
Aminatou: One thing that I've been particularly frustrated by is that basically pop culture Stan culture is what is happening in politics also. People are just like Stans of their candidates. I'm like actually you should be deeply distrustful of anyone who is running for president just because they're running for president. Running for president is corny. And one of these people is going to save us but you cannot believe in them so much that you don't see something that's wrong in either of them. None of these candidates are perfect.
Ann: Right, like keep your critical faculties about you. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know, but people don't. And I'm talking about on the left, you know what I mean? Forget the other side. That has been really wild to take in. And it's one of those things that I'm like if you're an Elizabeth Warren fan and Bernie Sanders wins that's obviously the America you want to live in. And if you're a Bernie Sanders fan and Elizabeth wins that's also the America you want to live in. It's not the best America you can have either way, I'm sure that's how people feel, but I'm like wouldn't you want to live in either of those Americas? Better than the America you have right now, probably. So that's one thing that's always been baffling to me. But also this idea that just on its face women cannot talk about the electability issue as it is and that there's not like a narrative around that. And to be fair that narrative around electability is not shaped by politicians. It's not shaped by Bernie Sanders. It's not even shaped by Donald Trump. It's shaped by the media. And so thinking about how we cannot have these constructive and critical conversations and how that's a problem actually for the future of all of our ideas and the future of what we want the country to be is -- it concerns me greatly.
(30:30)
Ann: It's funny, I actually thought you were going to end that sentence slightly differently because it definitely is related to the media but I would've finished that sentence with is because of the lived, everyday experience of sexism and how entrenched it is. And it's like when I -- I really just think back, like when I saw that CNN poll that was like 20 percent of women say a woman can't win versus 9 percent of men say a woman can't win, it's because men are not on the receiving end of the kind of subtle and pervasive sexism that women are.
Aminatou: Right.
Ann: And really . . .
Aminatou: Sorry, go on.
Ann: But I guess I want to say it's that lived experience of saying I have not ascended to the job I'm capable of in my own workplace or my home features an unequal division of women. That kind of really deep, personal knowledge of the ways in which there is still not gender equality in this country, that is an informing factor as much as how are women talked about or what Bernie Sanders did or didn't say.
Aminatou: I deeply understand that as a woman and I also deeply understand it as a black person right? And so it's this thing that it happens on multiple levels and not -- this refusal to hear people out on what their personal experience is, it's not great, and also I always think about the fact that all of these conversations, whether it was about Obama and whether he was electable or whether it's about Elizabeth Warren or Amy Klobuchar or, you know, the one that's like a psychic.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: Whether they're electable.
(32:00)
Ann: Orb gang. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, I'm like who is that lady? But the thing I think about a lot is behind the joking about it and behind this thing there is actually a deep pain there. And so it's like forget the candidates, but the people who are having these fights online and the people who are . . . the voters. There is a real pain there. And so when I hear women just doubling down on being like Elizabeth Warren is my lady and I believe her, I was like of course you believe her because there is something about your own experience that is true about that. And it's kind of the same thing that I always tell my white friends whenever they get defensive about sexism, I'm just like is the perception of you being a misogynist or maybe a racist, is that the same as someone experiencing misogyny or racism? You know? And having some honest who is being harmed and how much pain is there there? And so we're going to have elections forever and ever and ever but . . .
Ann: Hopefully. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Well, you know, maybe. Who knows? Maybe the strongman will finally step in and this is the last election. But it's like setting the politics of it aside I think that you're right. It's like a lot of this is also playing out in this very interpersonal way and so this conversation is just -- it's a frame for all kinds of other conversations that we're having. Like of course there is not fair division of labor in most people's marriages. Are you kidding me? There is not a fair division of labor in the workplace. Women have not ascended to the highest levels of power. If everything was hunky-dory we would've been here, so what are we talking about when we talk about this? And, you know, I don't know. It's just a kind of really willful misunderstanding of what's going on. It's also not lost on me that all these women -- everybody who is running for president is in a later stage of life. So watching people in their 20s and 30s argue about this I was like okay, even if you don't believe Elizabeth Warren now let's see how the course of your career shapes out and what you're going to learn about what the world is like. And I don't know, this is all a circuitous way of saying that I am just very disappointed in how these conversations shake out because short of ad homonym I would feel very different about this conversation if Elizabeth Warren had come out saying Bernie Sanders is sexist. Then I would say like show me some receipts. What are you talking about? Blah, blah, blah.
(34:35)
But this is not how the conversation shook out and the meaning that everyone is making out of it is so -- some of it is really beside the point of what the issue is. If we had healthy gender dynamics and we had parity we would not be having conversations about whether women are electable or not no matter who those women were.
Ann: Yeah. And the part that also makes me really sad is about the ways in which these messages are coming from inside the house, you know what I mean?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: And again this is why I think the kind of is Bernie Sanders a sexist is so far afield from the actual point. There's this anecdote in Rebecca Traister's piece where she describes interviewing Elizabeth Warren in 2018 and I'm going to read it because I find it so heartbreaking. So Rebecca writes "We were talking then about the kinds of things she'd been told back in 2011 when she was considering a run for the Massachusetts US Senate seat against popular Republican incumbent Scott Brown who had beaten a woman, Martha Coakley, in 2010. Warren remembers the phone calls telling her you can run but you'd better understand Massachusetts will not elect a woman to an office this big. Those calls she told me were friendly calls. That was the saddest part, the most infuriating part of these calls. They came from people who wanted to be kind but wanted to make sure that I understood the hard reality of America." Oof.
(35:55)
Aminatou: That is heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking and it's true. Who doesn't know that? Who doesn't know that in their bones that it's true?
Ann: People who have not experienced it firsthand. [Laughs] I think that's true for . . .
Aminatou: Right. But Ann there are also a lot of women who push these messages who are like this is not my lived experience. And I think it's really easy to be like there's a lot of internalized misogyny. Sure, a lot of women can also have these ideas. But it's just that on its face to me, the story of America bears that out.
Ann: Oh for sure. And I guess I didn't mean to disagree about the voracity of that statement. I guess I'm thinking more about also who do we give permission to kind of articulate that? And how can we talk about this experience without it being a self-fulfilling prophecy? Because part of me is like I really wish that the Bernie Sanders response had been even more emphatically to kind of say essentially what we have just said, like American life is still so deeply unequal and that contributes to this feeling that this country will not back a woman for a job like this. And that does not mean that a woman is not capable.
Aminatou: Right.
Ann: But, you know, just some kind of greater recognition of as we were saying the kind of lived experience and pain of that. Then you wouldn't have to have a situation where the previous iterations of this campaign, or essentially up to now where you have Elizabeth Warren, you know, aside from being asked directly about it in an interview, really downplaying the kind of pain and hurdle that "friendly" phone calls like that and that attitude represent. Like what if we could fully acknowledge that and also say like okay, we're going to all collectively decide not to . . . we're going to vote about how we wish things were.
(37:50)
And I actually think there's been many things said about Obama and yes we can as a message and things like that but that as sort of this rebuke to the idea of no, we can't have a black president was a really brilliant . . . obviously that slogan is doing a lot of work in a lot of different ways but I think in the context of this conversation it was like no, you get to decide that we can in fact have a black president if you will it, you know?
Aminatou: Yeah. And it's just also thinking about I . . . this is one of those places that I think one of my central frustrations is also how again people who are Stans for candidates are the worst people to carry some of these messages sometimes because you're absolutely right. This disagreement between these two candidates could've been such -- it could've been a way for both of them . . . there could've been a way for both of them to make their points better. So when I hear people be frustrated that, you know, Bernie Sanders -- whenever they say Bernie Sanders doesn't care about women or he doesn't care about black people I was like I don't believe that. Obviously not. You don't get to do the kind of work . . . I'm like Bernie Sanders is not a racist. He's not a misogynist. I love when Republicans say like "I don't know what's in his heart."
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: I think that a place where I get frustrated a lot with this discourse is I'm like there is a way to say both I am not sexist and I am not a misogynist but also here is the truth of where our country is at.
Ann: Totally.
Aminatou: You know? And using that to pivot away from you. Because I think sometimes that is literally all people are asking for.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: That's all they're asking for is for you to acknowledge that shit sucks. And at the same time again I was like nobody is . . . nobody here is god so you don't have to give them your full devotion. Keep your brains on. And yeah, it's just frustrating from the point of this is what a primary is for is to get the person with the best ideas to win and when we are still in this place where we are not learning the lessons of pretty much every past election we've had I was like how is the general election going to go? Because it's a bloodbath and it's going to be so tough.
And you're right, so many of these calls are coming from inside the house and it doesn't feel good to have the feeling of, you know, if one of these people wins -- if Klobuchar wins, like someone who supports Elizabeth Warren wouldn't get behind her if Sanders wins. This feeling of like there is not . . . you're not going to double down on who the future of the country could be. I think that doesn't feel great. It just doesn't feel great.
(40:40)
Ann: Yeah, yeah. And it's also like, I don't know, I am definitely going to be canvasing and working for whoever gets this nomination and I think there is a feeling that is even more widespread than the regret about how this went down in particular that's like can we please not make -- can we please reroute this conversation to a direction that feels like it is acknowledging the reality without like . . . yeah, you're right, it's like without doing this kind of fan culture stupidity. In order to kind of recognize that we all have to be on the same page within a very few number of months.
Aminatou: Right. This is also a great segue to the next thing that we want to talk about.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Because this idea -- because I'm hearing this so much and one part of me is like god, this can't be true and then on the other hand I'm like this probably happened in the last election anyway. This idea that if Bernie wins the Warren fans are going to stay home and if Elizabeth Warren wins, like whatever, the vice-versa of that. And was this Hollywood Reporter cover with Hillary Clinton on it.
Ann: Oh man.
(41:55)
Aminatou: About this documentary that is premiering that I'm so excited to see at Sundance this weekend. But, you know, like her saying that nobody likes him legit made me cackle out loud Ann because I don't think I've ever heard that said about a man in power out loud before. Fully I was like this is hilarious before everything else about it set in. And I obviously have to watch the documentary to see it in full context and see what this is about but I think the prevailing feeling from the quote and from the trailer or whatever was Hillary Clinton was saying she would not support who the nominee was if that nominee was Bernie Sanders. She has obviously said that that is not true on her social media but I thought that the kerfuffle around it was so interesting.
Ann: Well I mean I guess I feel for me that it was like the . . . a lot of the conversations we have about women and electability have been really questions about Hillary and electability frankly which has been pointed out repeatedly.
Aminatou: Right. That's what all the research is about is can Hillary Clinton be president? And we don't have any research on can a woman be president.
Ann: Exactly. And so I'll be honest that when I saw these headlines I had this feeling of weariness where I was like I don't fucking care what Hillary thinks about this. I'm ready to have a conversation that is actually about women in politics and I want it to be women and I want that to mean women in every iteration of what that word means, not just like old white women and not just Hillary Clinton, right? I want it to mean the full breadth of that word and I want to live in the reality where we're talking about that because I imagine it will be a very different conversation. And so I just had this frustration where I'm like you know, sure, I will click through and read what Hillary has to say about Bernie today but at the end of the day I'm just like I don't care. I really don't care whether it was taken out of context or you do think Bernie is whatever. Not to say I don't care about her as a public figure but I am in this moment right now where I'm really just desperate for a conversation about women in politics that's not a Hillary in politics conversation. And I feel like that article just . . . ugh, I clicked but with a heavy heart.
(44:20)
Aminatou: I mean again I'm excited to watch the documentary because I want to see it in context. And one reason honestly Ann that I thought it was interesting is because all of these questions about electability are always about women because the pervasive feeling during the 2016 election when so many people were saying Hillary Clinton was not electable but we would vote for another woman, we're now seeing another woman up for the job and somehow the questions are the same right? And that was a feeling that I had. I was like hmm, who is the woman that everyone's going to be excited about voting about and how will she not be dogged by all these same kinds of accusations?
And so I think that that was one thing that I . . . I don't know, I've been thinking about that a lot. I've also been thinking a lot about how men just do not face these same kinds of questions. You know, like Bernie Sanders does not strike me as a cuddly, nice person and that's not what I need in my president so I'm not saying that should be the case. I'm like you are a competent person who does your job, who cares deeply. You have every quality that I want in a president. But the fact -- there is just no . . . and this is a futile exercise in so many ways. But I think about who is the woman of his generation who could be just like him and still have all the shots that they have? Someone who's been in Congress for 30 years. You're not sure that they've ever even passed a bill for a stamp and they're always trying to yell at you and give people free shit. I was like who is the woman who gets to do that?
(45:50)
So I don't say that to say . . . it's not an exercise in like if a woman did this she wouldn't get elected. But I do think that part of having this conversation is pointing out these differences of part of why this Hillary Clinton thing ruffled a lot of people is because it's not an issue whether a man is likable. That's not a point in the electability. We literally have the worst human being as president and that was not a . . . I don't think any pollsters over there were going like ugh, what if he were nicer? What if he baked cookies? What if he toned it down? What if he wore a blue suit instead?
Ann: You don't have to worry about that if you activate white nationalist impulses. You don't have to worry about things like that. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know. But I still think it's instructive on how we have these conversations because I . . . part of the reason that being a powerful woman in this way is not interesting to me in the least, like there's not enough money to make me want to do this because 1) public office doesn't pay a lot of money but 2) there is something just very much . . . I was like why would you, if you're a woman, why do you put yourself through this knowing everything that you know about it? And this is true for Republican women also. Like the high wire act of both being like hyper-competent and fitting this mold of what a powerful woman (TM) is supposed to be, it's something that's so tough and it's never anything that . . . all kinds of men get to run for office whether you're Bernie Sanders or one of those . . .
Ann: Whether you barely won your race for mayor. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right. You better won your race for mayor. It's like Elizabeth Warren has beat an incumbent Republican before. No one else who's running against her as a man has done that and I'm like shouldn't that count for something? It's just like all of these things are interesting to me. It's like yeah, on the men's side there's Bernie Sanders. There's those three dudes that they all look like Florida basketball coaches. I cannot tell them apart. There's so many of them -- it's like the range, the kind of man that you can be to run for office, it seems like it is limitless. And when you're a woman it is actually a very limited kind of possibility both in the imagination of the country and probably in your own personal imagination. And so I think that the Hillary quote in that context, it activated a lot of this thinking for me. And, you know, in the end she came out and said whoever the nominee is is who I'm going to support. And also again when I go back to the media who is shaping these narratives it's like I . . . yeah, I am dying to have a conversation about women in politics writ large that is not anchored by the full weight of just one woman's political career. There's an entire institution that could make that happen for me and so far they're not interested in doing that.
(48:35)
Ann: Yeah. And I feel like that last statement is exactly what I was getting at when I was like woof when I clicked this. When I clicked it I was just like ugh, I don't know. I will tell you that I am . . . I don't know. I am engaged in a way. I am one of these people that's like okay, now that it's actually primary season I am following this stuff in a way that I sort of deliberately was not up until this point for reasons of long game and also just almost as a protest vote. I really believe that the electoral process should be shorter in this country and I'm like okay, I'm going to tune in at the juncture of the primaries. But I am also starting to think about what are the rules for myself around how I'm keeping perspective on every twist and turn and quote be it from a current or former candidate.
Aminatou: Right. I watched that Vice Brown and Black Forum -- I hope I'm saying that right, sorry if I didn't -- but it was funny because I have not watched . . . I think I watched one debate but I really have not been tuned in to the ups and downs of the race or whatever. And it was funny because watching that forum was the first time that I heard from at least four of these people who are seriously running to be president. I was like oh, Amy Klobuchar, that's what your voice sounds like. I'm keeping an eye on it but very much whoever wins I will throw my full weight behind you but also, you know, just always be critically thinking of these people.
(50:10)
Ann: Okay, and with that I will see you at the poll? See you on the Internet? Where will I see you? I don't know. I'll see you in New York next week.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I'll see you in New York next week. You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.