Armchair Edibles Experts
1/10/20 - How to stay engaged when the news is terrible (more reading, less tweeting is always a good start). Ann's review of CATS, feelings about actual cats, and our philosophy of which drugs and film genres go well together. Plus, who gets to be a podcast breakout, and who gets overlooked.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: ARMCHAIR EDIBLES EXPERTS
[Ads]
(0:25)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow and I have a sinus infection.
Ann: And I'm Friedman and I am just really tired. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Okay.
Ann: This is going to be a very early days of CYG podcast. This is going to be a like do we know how to work our equipment? What are we even doing? Is anyone even listening? That's what's happening this week.
Aminatou: Is anyone listening? Okay, tell me the headlines. What are we talking about today?
Ann: Oh my god. Well on this week's agenda we are talking about some serious things and also many un-serious things including Cats, both capital C and lowercase C, and when celebrities do interview podcasts.
[Theme Song]
(1:33)
Ann: The world is never low-stakes but I feel like the news has been representatively bad lately. I don't know, how else would you characterize it?
Aminatou: Yeah. It's like the beginning of the year has been such a bummer. It's like between watching Australia burn, the toll that it's taking on the planet, the toll that it's taking with the animals, and just watching their leaders be as baffled about the problem as we are is something that's not encouraging.
Ann: And some of them being willfully un-engaged in solving the problem.
Aminatou: Right. I'm like I am very far away and this is a point of concern to me. It's a point of concern that a lot of their public officials are still on holiday. Then there's everything in Iran. Being in this bubble . . .
Ann: You mean our work sequester?
Aminatou: Yeah, our -- we are fully sequestered in the desert and hopping on Twitter and seeing that Franz Ferdinand was trending and it was not because they were playing at Coachella, I have to say that was like the shock of my life.
Ann: It was not a best of the decade moment.
Aminatou: Yeah, not a best of the decade moment. And, you know, at the same time I think a thing that I am learning in our sequestration, is that how you say that word?
Ann: Yeah, sure.
Aminatou: Being sequestered, is I am tapping into a collective anxiety about the news and I am also anxious but there has been something really nice about not being anxious with other people about it that I think has been really helpful to me.
Ann: Right, like we have a very immediate task at hand and so when we're -- we are not spending a lot of time sharing anxiety and amping each other up about the news right now.
Aminatou: Right. And that was very apparent to me this week and I was really thankful for it. And I think that also kind of put into focus some coping skills that were good. Obviously this is not a call for don't read the news or don't, you know . . .
Ann: Or spend your life sequestered in the desert.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Right.
Ann: Don't become the Unabomber. Don't . . .
Aminatou: Yeah, you know, the Unabomber probably slept great at night.
Ann: In that cozy hoodie?
Aminatou: In that cozy hoodie of his. Or, you know, in general don't write your congresspeople or don't be engaged. I'm not saying don't be engaged but I do think there's just something to be said about the way news anxiety is contagious and that sometimes it's okay to step away from it. Also we all have a lot of work to do or things we should be doing and it's easy to say "You should focus on that." That is not how the brain works. But I have been really grateful that I have been able to channel my energy and my anxiety there.
(4:00)
Ann: Right. And one thing that I am thinking about a lot too is how many of the people who I most admire in terms of the way they are active about trying to align the world with their beliefs, people who are like, you know, activists in it for the long game, the people I most admire are limited in the number of issues they're super-informed and active about and they are doing things no matter what is trending. Like they have kind of ongoing practices to address the fact that these are ongoing problems.
When I start to feel that sense of oh my god, everything's in flames and our terrible president is starting wars and ethnic and religious minorities are being run out of the country in other places, you know what I mean, when I start to -- like that rising panic of watching all these news items pile up, I really try to think about okay, which of these things am I informed about? Which of these things can I be taking action on in a long-term, meaningful way as opposed to having a panic moment right now where I'm like spraying false information all over the Internet?
Aminatou: Right. And also respectfully I think I also know how anxiety works so I'm not shaming anyone but I also think that you can remind yourself also how close you are the one that is to danger. And I think that for me that has been immensely clarifying, of okay, the world is not great but physically right now today I am doing fine relative to a lot of other people. And having that perspective also I think kind of gives you your marching orders about what you're supposed to do. It's like the more removed you are the more work you should be doing.
Ann: Work, not fretting.
(5:55)
Aminatou: Right, not fretting. I was like I am not in the path of a bomb. I am not in the path of a fire. I'm not in the path of a lot of things. It's also such a wakeup call, you know, that life is really unjust and it's really unfair and a lot of times that is closer to a lot of people than it is to me.
Ann: Right. And I also think that that feeling of being removed from a problem but being confronted with it all of a sudden in that very social media, on the Internet kind of way, often I find myself immediately going through "But what is there for me to do about it?" And I feel like that is a sign that I'm not actually invested in this issue in an ongoing way. Like I was saying before the people who I know who are long-term invested are like yeah, okay, well I know the fact that there is a bill coming up to do this or I know a about this aid organization because I'm invested in this issue in an ongoing way and I fund raise for them every year. And I think there's a world in which you can give into the panic of like I don't know what to do about everything and instead decide to become an expert in a couple of things and be in them in an ongoing way.
And I do think you're right about the keeping in mind what is actually at risk for you personally but I also think that there's an inverse of this that's like where do you have a personal investment and toehold and that is also a place to start. You know, the things that you are closest to.
Aminatou: Yeah. And I think this thing that you were saying about also becoming an expert is really resonating with me because I think that a thing that I am noticing a lot in the social media panic of it all or even my own response is just this sense of well I don't know enough. And here's the deal: if you don't know enough it's time to become a student again, you know?
Ann: Right, and not a teacher. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right. It's like become a student. And so much of this too is about not just outsourcing your own understanding and your own brainpower and everything to other people teaching you things. Even if you are reading the newspaper you should be a critical reader of the newspaper. One of my anxiety coping tactics is that I only have two websites that I check about all of the problems. I'm like I'm sticking to these two.
Ann: Callyourgirlfriend.com? [Laughs]
(8:05)
Aminatou: Callyourgirlfriend.com.
Ann: Please don't do that.
Aminatou: And Call Your Girlfriend dot com. And, you know, I have two websites that I'm sticking to. And even just reading those two you have to challenge a lot of assumptions. Just because a reporter is telling you something does not mean that it's true or it doesn't explain the depth of the issue or the problem that is happening. So I've just been so reminded of that, of there is just you are a student for the rest of your life.
Ann: If you're lucky.
Aminatou: Yeah. And if you don't know something there's no shame in not knowing but there's probably a little bit of shame in pretending that you know and there is definitely a missed -- there's a huge missed opportunity if you don't find out for yourself. Like it's not a . . . you know, these things are not out of reach. If you have time to listen to this podcast you have time to figure out a little bit more about the geopolitical issue of a part of the world, or you have the opportunity to find out why certain countries are on fire when others are not. This is not . . . we have all of the tools to do that. So I think, you know, not to sound harsh but I have to remind myself of that all of the time that it's not someone else's job to teach me things. I have to do the work of learning.
Ann: Right. I was actually thinking about this, not to make like a fluffy pivot to the Golden Globes, but I was thinking about this.
Aminatou: Wow. How are you going to execute on that? [Laughs]
Ann: Watch me spin. Watch me spin.
Aminatou: Wow, gymnastics.
Ann: When many people in my feed were sharing Michelle Williams' speech about essentially encouraging women to vote in line with people who are in favor of policies that support reproductive justice, which I was like yes, me too, it was really interesting noting that and seeing that speech come across my feeds at the same time people were all talking about other issues right? Like, you know, the reminder that okay actually accessing reproductive healthcare is something that is an ongoing issue, something that if you ask me to focus on it I feel great levels of panic and despair, and I'm like yeah, you know, you can also still use your platform to say something that is not about exactly what's happening in the news right now right? There's an idea about being like okay, I am sticking to the things that I am more knowledgeable about or I'm going to stay the course with this thing that's happening even though maybe the public attention is somewhere else right now. And I know that's a dumb, convoluted example but it really just kind of struck me was oh, right, this is not the moment that everybody is talking about the last clinic closing down somewhere. This is not a moment of panic about something specific happening in legislation. It's still worth talking about in a long-game sense.
Aminatou: Wow Ann, that pirouette. Amazing. Tens all across the board.
Ann: The only time my physical prowess has ever been praised.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Let's take a break.
[Ads]
(12:30)
Aminatou: Well let's devote the rest of this episode to total bullshit because 1) I don't know what's going on.
Ann: We've already confessed our brains are melted and people who don't have good info should not be speaking about the news.
Aminatou: Yeah, don't listen to us. I do not know. What was that -- was it Miss South Carolina who did . . . [Laughs]
Ann: Wow, that is an Internet deep cut.
Aminatou: That is an Internet deep cut. Do you remember that lady?
Ann: Yes. I'm going to find . . .
Aminatou: I looked her up recently because that speech, maybe Gina you can play the speech?
[Clip Begins]
Female: Recent polls have shown a fifth of Americans can't locate the US on a world map. Why do you think this is?
Miss South Carolina: I personally believe that US Americans are unable to do so because some people out there in our nation don't have maps and I believe that our education such as in South Africa and the Iraq, everywhere such as, I believe that they should . . . our education over here in the US should help the US or should help South Africa and should help Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future for . . .
Mario Lopez: Thank you so much South Carolina.
[Clip Ends]
(13:50)
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Okay, it's worth noting that Mario Lopez is cracking up at the end of that answer.
Aminatou: So this -- I think about this clip often because any time I think of someone who is not informed speaking about something they're uninformed about I remember this poor woman. And I looked her up recently and I believe she's a realtor now, and I was like wow, everything turns out just fine for everyone. But like my favorite thing in the entire world, especially when I worked in an office, was if someone looked you in the eye and said "I don't know."
Ann: I respect that so much.
Aminatou: I love it. You don't understand the depths to which -- I was like wow, now you have opened up an avenue for us to do the best we can do. [Laughs] As opposed to just being a bullshitter in the Iraq such as US Asians, you know? It's just what a moment. What a moment.
Ann: Right. So essentially we are going to pirouette to topics that are not of global importance because otherwise we would be Miss South Carolina 2007ing ourselves.
Aminatou: Right. Well, you know, I'm kind of Miss Carolina 2007ing myself in the sense that I don't know anything about Cats the play.
Ann: Oh, I'm sorry, we're talking about Cats the play now?
Aminatou: Yeah, we're talking about Cats the play now. Let's talk about Cats the play. Gina Delvac sent us a hilarious article to read about Cats the play.
Ann: Oh, it was about something I've already done which never happens. I never read a trend article and I'm like oh, I've done that.
Aminatou: It's about someone who got stoned and went to see Cats.
Ann: Many someones in fact.
Aminatou: Right. Here is my experience of Cats. I . . .
Ann: Capital C.
Aminatou: Cats capital C. I obviously saw the trailers when they came out because so many actors are in them and I was deeply disturbed at the shape of the cats. I was like are these anthropomorphologically sound? What's going on here? Also the cast made no sense to me. I was like Idris Elba with Taylor Swift with Jason Derulo with, you know? I was like what's going on? I didn't understand and then I just shelved it as I'm going to say something that may be controversial but musical theatre is not for me and so I know nothing about musical theatre. I am not judgmental about it; just it did not come to me and so therefore I know nothing about it. Then I went to do a quick Wikipedia of Cats.
(16:30)
Ann: A quickopedia?
Aminatou: A quickopedia of Cats and within 15 seconds I had to close the computer because all I could think of was oh, this just sounds like cocaine. I've got it. None of this makes sense to me.
Ann: You do need to understand that it was created in the 1980s.
Aminatou: Right, which I didn't know. I didn't know that that song Memories was from Cats. I don't know anything about Cats. Also why you would have an entire award-winning musical with a theme as cats, I don't understand any of it and so I'm emotionally divested. But I greatly enjoy reading about people who got stoned to see Cats which, you know, your experience, would you say it was enjoyable?
Ann: [Laughs] I like the idea of you interviewing me as if we're on a talk show.
Aminatou: We are on a talk show.
Ann: One of those screenshots of an early Ricki Lake or Donahue episode where under my photo it says "Ann got high and saw Cats."
Aminatou: Well you know the Ricki Lake and right? "And doesn't know how to make guacamole." [Laughs]
Ann: Which is also very much not true about me, okay? I make a good one-avo guacamole. I make a good big bowl of guacamole. Ugh.
Aminatou: It's a respectable guacamole, it's true.
Ann: Anyway, so I would also like to say . . .
Aminatou: Ann tell me.
Ann: I recounted my stoner experience of Cats for you before this article was circulated, before I knew it was a trend. Here's the thing: I would not consider myself a musical theatre fan. Again just not my thing. I also did not know the plot of Cats. I knew the logo. I knew it was one of those -- I don't know, I knew it existed. I did not know it didn't have a plot which is really the issue.
(18:08)
Aminatou: Cocaine 100 percent.
Ann: The plot is cocaine and leotards with fur on them. And I believe that was the case even when it was confined to the stage, like before it entered the uncanny valley which also uncanny is too weak a word for this valley.
Aminatou: I mean . . .
Ann: It's a ravine. It is like a dark, dark place.
Aminatou: Can I ask questions since you're the Cats expert now? Is this the first Cats movie?
Ann: To my knowledge. However I didn't even do a quickopedia. I was involved in a group chat which someone later suggested we change the name to Jellicle Chats which like . . .
Aminatou: That's what the Jellicle ball jokes are about. Got it.
Ann: So they are a category of cat called the Jellicle cat. This is like design -- this is the stoniest thing ever. That's never defined or explained. Maybe if you read T.S. Elliott's original poem that this is based on there is some explanation but I don't think so.
Aminatou: Who?
Ann: Known anti-Semite T.S. Elliott? British poet?
Aminatou: [Laughs] Thank you Ann for the perspective. Always a teaching moment on this show.
Ann: I'm just like, you know, sometimes people's reputation should follow them. Anyway, you might also know him from whatever classics reading you had to do in your College 101. That's where I encountered him. Exactly. He's somebody's greatest hit. Anyway, so the plot such that it is is that there are these cats, they call themselves Jellicle cats. It's sort of like a Sharks and Jets kind of crew thing to use another musical theatre reference.
Aminatou: Oh no, is that the . . .
Ann: Westside Story.
Aminatou: Okay. Okay.
Ann: But whatever, it's like a cute club or like a . . . I hesitate to use the word gang but they're like a crew. They're like a crew of people who call themselves Jellicle cats who have setup a distinction between themselves and other cats.
Aminatou: So it's not like a race of cats? It's just they wear a cool jacket?
(20:00)
Ann: Interesting question. So the jacket point brings up another interesting thing which is that some of the cats wear clothes and some of the cats do not, and it's not like the Donald Duck thing where you know how Donald Duck doesn't wear pants?
Aminatou: I know, which is so offensive to me to this day. [Laughter]
Ann: It is like some of the cats wear clothes. Some of the cats don't. Also some of the cats wear fur which is kind of the equivalent . . .
Aminatou: That is so rude.
Ann: I know. It's sort of the equivalent of like thinking about a human being in a skin suit or something. It is horrific. It is actually horrific if you consider the implications which if you saw the movie stoned like I did you were most definitely considering. The other thing about some of the cats wearing clothes and some of them not is the cat bodies are all -- like the interpretation of what is this human cat hybrid varies from cat to cat and I don't believe this is a distinction between are you a Jellicle or not, like they are all terrifying. The Idris Elba cat has like -- it is like . . . there's a lot of body shelling right?
Aminatou: Do you think every actor was like "I need my cat to look like me?" so, you know . . .
Ann: Well you know Jason Derulo's complaint.
Aminatou: Well yes, that his Derulo is not showing enough.
Ann: Speaking of YouTube videos from like the early 2000s, the 20-hour cut of Jason Derulo singing his own name.
Aminatou: Jason Derulo.
Ann: Thank you.
Aminatou: I'm doing that so wrong.
Ann: That is the outro music for this episode.
Aminatou: So you're telling me that every cat is different? And I am just speculating that every actor needed their cat to do a thing that they wanted physically for themselves.
Ann: Maybe. Also the cat/human anatomy is extremely unclear. At one point the James Corden cat like . . .
Aminatou: James Corden is in this movie?
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: Oh gosh.
Ann: The James Corden cat falls on a beam and his legs are on either side of the beam and he kind of makes an "Oh!" face as if he's been hit in his genitalia but he's a cat and that's not where his genitalia would be. It makes no sense.
Aminatou: Wait, where is cat genitalia?
Ann: I'm pretty sure it is not . . . oh my god, actually now I don't -- I don't want to Google this.
(22:10)
Aminatou: I don't know anything about cat anatomy. Like I've seen cat butts for sure.
Ann: Well I just assumed it was all back there. [Laughs] I feel high just talking about it.
Aminatou: Listen Ann, I am shocked that we're having this conversation and there's no marijuana happening but where do cats pee from?
Ann: I just Googled cat anatomy. I'm seeing the anus but not reproductive organs. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Okay. I see a kidney. I see a gallbladder.
Ann: But it's definitely not between -- I love how, okay, P.S., this is an important side note. Neither of us are people who are into lowercase cats, the pet, either which explains the double confusion here.
Aminatou: Everything you need to understand about Ann and me is very early in our friendship she helped me move into an apartment where there was a cat that needed to be contained and I had never held a cat before. I didn't know how to carry it. And I watched you bravely carry the cat and to this day I don't understand how one does the gesture.
Ann: I don't like holding living things whose heart I can feel beating. That's like a weird . . .
Aminatou: Oh, what about me? [Laughs]
Ann: I mean, I know, but I'm not fully lifting your body with my hands around the center.
Aminatou: One day, inshallah.
Ann: Speaking of aerial ballet we are not doing lifts.
Aminatou: We are not. Okay, fine. Can the Google search be cat reproductive organs?
Ann: Okay.
Aminatou: She's back.
Ann: She's back, and I've got to say that stuff is not down between the legs. [Laughter] No matter what your cat gender it is out the back.
Aminatou: Man, how convenient this anatomy. You know, good for the cat ladies. That's awesome. [Laughs]
Ann: Okay, wait, let's go -- can we please go back to the plot? The non-existent plot of cats, because I have a couple other important things to tell you about this experience. One is that you know that experience -- the kind of stereotypical stoner experience of you look at your hands and they look huge?
(24:00)
Aminatou: Yes. The hand size is the number one you're stoned feeling.
Ann: Okay, so conjure that feeling while I tell you that the cats in this movie do not remain a consistent size in proportion to their environment.
Aminatou: What?
Ann: Sometimes they are as tall as a door handle; sometimes they are as small as like an iPhone. The size is dramatically shifting, and sometimes multiple times within a scene. The other thing that's weird is that there's no humans playing humans in this movie but there are other humans playing other types of creatures, in particular mice and cockroaches.
Aminatou: Whoa.
Ann: And the human hybrid cat -- the human/cat hybrid Rebel Wilson at one point eats . . .
Aminatou: Ann you could be making up all of these actors and I would believe you. James Corden, Rebel Wilson. What?
Ann: Okay, at one point human/cat hybrid Rebel Wilson eats human/cockroach hybrids, like puts them between her mouth and eats them, which is almost as disturbing as cat Judi Dench wearing a giant fur.
Aminatou: Judi Dench! Judi Dench. Okay, the perspective thing makes me so mad because you know in those Fast and Furious movies?
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: They go out of their way to make sure that everyone in the movie is the same size which if you're working with The Rock is impossible right? It's like Vin Diesel is a very small man compared to that, and I'm like if they're doing this for movies you should do this for your weirdo Cat TV show.
Ann: If they can do this with iconic bald action stars they can do it with Cats.
Aminatou: Yeah! Makes me mad.
Ann: Human/cat hybrids.
Aminatou: Wait, but you didn't answer my question. Was this an enjoyable experience or was it like a whoa, I'm tripping out the whole time? Not like unenjoyable but where was the focus?
Ann: Okay. Well for context the people in this Washington Post article were seriously having breaks with reality. One of them had to go vomit in an AMC bathroom.
Aminatou: I'm having a break with reality. You're telling me Judi Dench is wearing a fur coat in this movie as a cat.
(26:00)
Ann: I will say for me I loved it. I don't know what that says about me but I was like I was not so disturbed that I couldn't handle it. Mostly I was just marveling that this exists. Just marveling that I am going to a movie theater in the year 2019 -- technically my 2019 -- and seeing . . . [Laughter] and seeing someone put this on the movie screen. That feeling of how did this happen? All the people that had to watch it and sign off on it to get to this point. I was just delighting in the kind of absurdity of it all.
Aminatou: Good for you.
Ann: But also the question is how do you feel -- for example one of my favorite movies to watch while stoned is Val Kilmer in The Saint.
Aminatou: Oh the best.
Ann: Really good right? But I guess what I'm trying to say is there are some people who don't like a good bad movie. You know, it's a personal preference.
Aminatou: I mean there's also categories of good bad movie I will say. I think that I obviously love a good bad movie as you know. I think that if there are drugs involved, if the movie is always drugs it makes it harder for me to enjoy it on drugs. You know what I mean? Where I'm like okay . . .
Ann: Wow. You need to bring the drugs, not the movie. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right. That's just how we're going to enjoy ourselves here. And also I think it definitely depends what kind of drugs you do. Cats is not like a marijuana movie.
Ann: Oh disagree.
Aminatou: For me. I'm saying for the way I enjoy -- like the different kinds of drugs I enjoy to do with different types of content.
Ann: What is your dream marijuana movie? Your ideal.
Aminatou: I mean I have so many. Usually I love to watch an action movie stoned because it does considerably slow it down for me. [Laughter] Just like oh, I'm like Keanu is moving too fast.
Ann: Now your Fast and the Furious size comment from earlier makes a lot of sense.
Aminatou: Right, you're like I'm moving too fast. But you know honestly my ideal stoner day is like an animal documentary, is like a nature eating itself, the meerkat is popping out of the meerkat house.
Ann: The human/meerkat hybrid is popping out of the house?
Aminatou: Yes. Oh no. No, no, no, we do not do psychedelics in this house. [Laughter] See, so that's the thing. That's something I thought of, I'd like to do a psychedelic but the thought of being glued to a screen on a psychedelic, I'm like that will . . . I'm going to need an emergency room for that.
(28:30)
Ann: Look, I'm not going to a movie theater psilocybin mushrooms. There are some people in this article where I'm like you are on a different plane.
Aminatou: I know! When I saw that I was like y'all are wild. That is for a museum with an expansive outside area, you know what I mean?
Ann: But some light legal marijuana use? Please. Totally, totally fine by me. So anyway that's my review of Cats.
Aminatou: Man, now I just really want to get stoned. Let's take a break. [Laughter]
[Ads]
(30:15)
Ann: Amina, what's a word for a live-in babysitter?
Aminatou: You know Ann, it's funny you would ask. I was reading an article in the New York Times recently.
Ann: In the what now?
Aminatou: In the Nuevo York Times, my hometown paper, about Dax Shepard which . . .
Ann: Who?
Aminatou: Who is an actor that if you have seen NBC TV shows about large families you probably know him. And he's an actor that's married to Kristen Bell and he hosts this podcast called Armchair Expert and the article was about him essentially. The thing that is funny about both the article and the setup to the article is that he is not the only host of his show. So here is the subhead for the article, subject "Dax Shepard is Listening. The actor's interview podcast Armchair Expert is very popular. Is he the next Howard stern, Terry Gross, or something else entirely?" And so if you scroll through the article there are these very fun high-gloss photos of him and his co-host Monica Padman who is mentioned nowhere in this subhead, mentioned nowhere in the subject of the article, but clearly is the second host of this podcast.
(31:40)
Ann: In the article as they describe her role she is, quote, "His quieter co-host who also handles the behind-the-scenes work of wrangling guests and editing interviews."
Aminatou: I'm going to read further down. "Much of the work that Ms. Padman does on the show, fact-checking, the editing, the scheduling, takes place off-mic. When they started recording the show she worried about getting enough airtime."
Ann: Huh.
Aminatou: The reason that Ann asked me -- the reason that you asked me what another word for live-in babysitter was was that this was the role that this woman filled in Dax Shepard and Kristen Bell's house. She's described as their live-in babysitter, which I'm like isn't that a nanny? Unclear, but I don't know how rich people operate. Semantics aside the whole thing is very fascinating to me about kind of how Hollywood work operates. So it's like okay, you had someone who works for you in a domestic realm and now they work for you in a professional realm which is fine. It's to me saying that somebody has these kind of big responsibilities on the show, I don't know, fact-checking, asking follow-up questions.
Ann: Scheduling.
Aminatou: Scheduling, booking guests. Why isn't this article "Is Monica Padman the next Howard Stern, Terry Gross, or XYZ?" And I guess that the answer is that she's paired off with a celebrity.
Ann: Yeah. I mean I think that this article frustrated both of us. We were ranting about it in the kitchen. The reason that this article is so frustrating is because it does not take into account in its framing of him and his importance and how he's doing this interviewing work the fact that the only reason this show is popular is because he's a celebrity who other celebrities feel comfortable talking to in part because he's a peer but also in part because he gives them the opportunity to cut portions of the interview after they record it in case they regret something that they said which is something -- it's a detail included in the article but if you read the framing of it I mean this is not something that Terry Gross lets her guests do for example.
(33:55)
Aminatou: Mm-mmm. Ask Adam Driver why.
Ann: [Laughs] What was I saying in the car? What was . . .
Aminatou: Oh, Ann does an amazing Adam Driver impersonation.
Ann: [Gruff voice] What? [Laughter] It's just me dropping the . . .
Aminatou: Yeah, Terry Gross doesn't do this. Howard Stern doesn't do this. And also famously Terry Gross and Howard Stern, two kind of self-made media people right? Self-made in the sense that they were not big names when they started.
Ann: When they started their interviewing.
Aminatou: And, you know, both have huge platforms where anyone will respond to a message from them. And the point of sharing this is not to berate celebrity podcasts. This podcast is actually -- the Armchair Expert podcast I think is very good actually.
Ann: It is a great celebrity podcast.
Aminatou: It's a great celebrity podcast. And it also has to be said that having someone who is kind of in the same industry or shares kind of the same . . . you know, you're in the same social situation as obviously opens up a way better channel for communication. It's the reason we love to listen to podcasts about journalists interviewing journalists and so on and so forth. So I take more kind of Umbridge at the Times and a lot of these celebrities just being like oh, this person has an amazing interview show and they get to book all these guests and blah, blah, blah. How do you think that happens? It's like well, welcome to having a platform. It happens because you have a platform and you have access and you have an in. It's not to say they don't do the work. Again the podcast is very good.
Ann: Monica Padman is definitely doing the work.
Aminatou: Yeah, Monica Padman is definitely doing the work, shout-out to Monica Padman. And I'm remembering that Variety interview.
Ann: Conan.
Aminatou: With Conan on the cover.
Ann: Hang on, I'm going to find that exact headline.
Aminatou: Yeah. What exactly did the headline say? It was like the cover.
Ann: Oh yeah.
Aminatou: Headline: "How Conan O'Brien and Other Top Hosts are Tapping into the Podcast Revolution." This is literally from like 17 seconds ago. Podcasts have been here since before Conan. It's not taking issue with the celebrity and what they're doing, that is so lazy to me. It's mostly about a framing that says that a medium is not relevant until certain people show up and those people tend to be famous white men and that I think is a very lazy kind of framing.
(36:10)
Ann: [Sighs] Yeah. I mean I also really struggle with the way that he -- that Dax Shepard in this particular profile is aligned with people who are coming out of a more journalistic tradition for sure. I'm not going to say that Howard Stern is Mr. J School 101. But definitely in the sense that they are in many cases not friends. Terry Gross not friends with the people she's interviewing. Somebody who does not let people go back and edit out things that they might've said that they regret. But I think that also extends to the way that they do the interviews. I mean one of the examples in this article is that Casey Affleck went on Armchair Expert and they didn't really push him on the various shady things that he has been accused of. And, you know, he has -- Dax Shepard tells the interviewer that he's interested in everyone's story and even a serial killer he would want to hear their story.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And it's sort of like yeah, sure, lots of people want to hear serial killers' stories, that's a whole strain of content, but also there is a whole thing about people being able to come on your show and know that they won't be faced with tough questions. I think you can want to hear someone's story and also accept some accountability in continuing to give them a platform. And that's what someone like Terry Gross has to do which is very different from someone like Dax Shepard who gets to be a celebrity pal when it's convenient and gets to be the next big interviewer when it's convenient.
Aminatou: That's the crux of it for me right? Where of course you can give anyone a platform but saying that they are your pal and not interrogating how their need for publicity at this exact moment aligns with you having a ginormous platform where you can make them seem like a sympathetic, cool, nice person? I'm not saying it's dangerous because that's not the . . . like nobody feels endangered, but it's very disingenuous from the stance of someone saying they want to humanize a lot of people and share stories that are relevant. I was like well you're not pushing them, you're not doing any kind of follow-up, and you are not addressing the thing that they're in the news for which a lot of times is the thing that is interesting.
(38:20)
Ann: Yeah. And I think, look, everybody who is in a position to interview somebody who is publicly known has to make choices about what they ask them about and how they contextualize their past. You and I have not always agreed on what guests should be asked or what we should focus on when we bring people onto this podcast. Like you can answer those questions a lot of different ways I guess is what I'm saying. I don't think it's like anybody who has someone who's accused of doing something horrible on their show is also horrible by extension. I don't believe that. But I also think you need to be open to criticism for what you do and don't ask someone. And I think characterizing someone like Dax Shepard as a great interviewer is very much in line with some of the other things that are happening in terms of celebrity coverage like the fact that Beyoncé is on the cover of a glossy fashion magazine only answering questions from her biggest fans and not from a journalist. Which Beyoncé is a pioneer of this I'm going to not be asked a question that I don't want to be asked. It's where everything is headed. It is the future. So that doesn't feel like Dax Shepard is the only one out there alone doing this. It's more I'm just frustrated about the framing of this article.
Aminatou: Well do better article writers. [Laughs] It's also some of this is so funny to me because I think I like it a little bit also as insider baseball because a little bit of the texture of this story also . . .
Ann: The Dax Shepard story?
Aminatou: The Dax Shepard story is someone who was on one career path, a.k.a. being an actor, and you can decide for yourself how successful he was at doing that.
Ann: Wow.
(39:52)
Aminatou: No, I'm saying in the sense where he's someone who worked a lot. The quality of movie or TV show or whatever is up for debate but I don't know what his barometer for I have a successful career is is what I'm saying.
Ann: Sure.
Aminatou: So as someone who was on one career path and now has discovered this other career path, you know, and I think that it's fair to say he's definitely praised more for his podcasting than he ever was for his acting, and so seeing the real-time like him respond to that, and there's a part in the article where he's like "Maybe I'm the next Howard Stern." And you're like really? Howard, I have my qualms with Howard Stern as content in general but Howard Stern's work ethic is unimpeachable. Also the Howard Stern story is he's been there for so long so to have someone do a podcast for however many seasons this has been going then automatically be put in that realm?
Ann: Since 2018.
Aminatou: Since 2018. [Laughs] The year before last year. And to automatically be given this -- kind of like get that cache, the mechanics of the interior lives of white men are always fascinating to me. I was like you know what? Maybe it is true. Maybe you are the next Howard Stern and now we're going to crank out Howard Sterns every three years recycling actors from TV shows.
Ann: Yeah. And I will say I think it's interesting on the point about gender, there are definitely women who are actors who have very successful podcasts. I think Anna Faris's podcast which has been around for a very long time.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: And is also very popular, that's another perfect example of someone who talks to other celebrities and is kind of semi-open about her personal life where you kind of know who her spouse is or isn't in the background. That is a perfect parallel here and it's not really mentioned. You know, I find it really interesting that he's not kind of aligned with her as an example of someone who's been doing what he's doing and is instead immediately elevated to this other stratosphere I guess of known interviewers.
(41:55)
Aminatou: Right. And some of it I think has to do with the perception of the topics he talks about, like he talks a lot about mental health and addiction and things that are hard. And again this is why the frame is lazy. One, there are entire strains of podcasts about that. This very podcast tackles mental health every once in a while. You know, the Anna Faris podcast mentions that a lot.
Ann: Of course, yeah.
Aminatou: And so it's also interesting to me who is worth listening to when we're talking about things like that. It's like what's so different about Dax Shepard asking someone addiction than it is if . . .
Ann: If Anna Faris asks someone about addiction, yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah, if Anna Faris asks someone about addiction or Jonathan Van Ness. It's like what is the difference? That's the question that we should keep asking ourselves because I always find it interesting how these voices get elevated and how they become lionized. And again it's not -- I keep saying the podcast is not bad because . . .
Ann: That's not the issue. [Laughs]
Aminatou: But the reason I keep saying it is because a lot of times that is the issue. The issue is that you're listening to this very mediocre kind of ugh, why is this even here? And it's so easy to see a distinction. And the thing that I find so interesting about this is that it's actually a good product and it doesn't do anyone a service. Like articles like this and framing like this, it doesn't do anything for anyone. I was like this . . .
Ann: Well it does something for Dax Shepard.
Aminatou: Well it definitely did something for Dax Shepard, I take it back. Monica Padman, hope it's doing something for you too.
Ann: Truly.
Aminatou: Also the pictures are great in here. But you know what I mean? Usually the thing that you get mad at is it's not good then on top of that there is all of this elitism and favoritism and blah, blah, blah. And here it's like no, it's good but guess what? Other people are just as good if not better and those are not the people that you're giving a voice to. And so who gets to make those decisions?
Ann: Yeah. And I think that it is sort of the equivalent of being in a meeting, a woman says something, and it's like crickets or the conversation just steamrolls on then a man says the same thing she just said and everyone's like "Hmm, interesting point."
(44:05)
Aminatou: To piggyback on what Ann said.
Ann: Not even to piggyback, just to full outright repeat it. I think it feels like the equivalent of that. And I think that like -- I'm pretty sure we did not talk about the Conan on Variety cover but I think there were many similar conversations around the way the popularity of podcasts were framed there too which was really similar of just like, you know, what you said earlier. Now that this well-known white man is doing it it's a thing, but it's not a thing until a man like this is doing it.
Aminatou: Right. And usually those people are doing it as a career pivot. [Laughs] that to me is the much more interesting thing. It's like oh, Conan, do you still have a TV show? What's going on there? Why are you doing a podcast now?
Ann: Okay, this is a funny question but what would your pivot be? What is your like okay, I'm done. I'm done with podcasting. I'm done with being a media icon. I want to be . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs] I'm done with being a media icon. I mean I think that if I'm using the scale of us.
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: The next thing I would do is probably a newsletter. It's like oh, okay, I'm done with podcasting. I'm going to do that. Or I'm finally going to stock fucking around and make my TikTok happen, you know what I mean?
Ann: Oh my god, you know what I was . . .
Aminatou: What were you going to say?
Ann: I would -- I do love that for you.
Aminatou: Wow.
Ann: But also I'm immediately subscribing to your newsletter in my mind.
Aminatou: Don't worry, coming to you 2020.
Ann: You would be amazing at TikTok. However . . .
Aminatou: Uh-oh, what's the pivot?
Ann: I thought you were going to say I'm going to make amazing body products. I'm going to make amazing . . .
Aminatou: Oh yeah, but that's like a pivot-pivot. I mean like . . .
Ann: I know, that's what I'm saying.
Aminatou: That's what you were asking? Oh yeah, 100 percent I'm going to become a skincare guru.
Ann: You don't think podcasting is a pivot-pivot for Dax Shepard? Come on.
Aminatou: I mean no, it's still media. You know what I mean? You're still a public-facing person. It's not like he went and opened a garage.
Ann: But only public-facing people can successfully start products these days.
Aminatou: You're right. What's your pivot?
Ann: Hmm, I'm not good at anything else.
(46:00)
Aminatou: What? First of all this is a lie.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: You could 100 percent open a restaurant and have a sandwich haberdashery. Are you kidding me? You would kill at it. Or a restaurant called Roasts where you just roast vegetables. Roasted.
Ann: Oh my god. So you think I should be a lunchtime scammer? [Laughs]
Aminatou: I think you would be the best lunchtime scammer. Ann, if you ran one of those 17 dollar salad places would lose all my money there. You combine the best vegetables.
Ann: I'll take it under advisement.
Aminatou: Okay. Let's scam solo when this book is released. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: Okay, I think that's as much as I have in me today.
Ann: Great, me too. Now you want to go do the rest of our work now?
Aminatou: Let's go do the rest of our work. See you at Dax Shepard's house.
Ann: Oh my god, see you on the Internet.
Aminatou: Happy New Year! Happy birthday Ann.
Ann: Ugh, thank you. [Laughter]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favs. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. Call us back. Leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our theme song is by Robyn. Original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed with design assistance from Brijae Morris. Carley Knowles is our merch director and we have editorial support from Laura Bertocci. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.