The Highlander of Black Intellectualism

beauty-and-the-beast-1+copy.jpg

9/6/19 - Wondering what it's like to see us live? We share one of our favorite nights of 2018, when we visited Seattle and discussed Ted Cruz's love of Disney movies, Megyn Kelly's obsession with blackface and why one of our favorite writers, Ijeoma Oluo, would be perfectly happy if white people wanted to take up the hard work of talking about race.

Transcript coming soon.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll

Recent Episodes
Farewell

We say goodbye, in the final episode of Call Your Girlfriend. In typical fashion, we're going out talking about how friends have been helping us get through the pandemic, the never-ending furor over Joe Rogan, and what podcasts we're loving. If you're looking to subscribe to something new, check out Do You Know Mordechai, Sweet Bobby, and Like a Virgin. Plus, what we're going to do next, and some of your voicemails.

I'm the Bad Guy Sometimes

We're not dead yet! Aminatou talks with legendary podcast, poet and essayist Nichole Perkins about navigating relationships as a Black woman, desire, boundaries, longing, and much more as we chat about her new book, Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be.

See You on the Nostalgia Tour

Is there anything you miss from before the internet? Reading, focus, getting lost, filing cabinets, are just a few of the things New York Times Book Review editor Pamela Paul discusses with us. Her new book is 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet.

Big Announcement

A different kind of newsy episode with Aminatou, Ann and Gina.

Money, Grief, Kids

We talk with one of our favorite writers, The New Yorker's Ariel Levy, about dynastic wealth, how we experience grief, and big surprises in life, including the joys of getting older and having children. Her podcast that chronicles maternity wear icon Liz Lange, of the New York Steinbergs is The Just Enough Family.

So You Want to Change the World

Can’t be that hard, right? We pass the mic to Nereya Otieno, one of Ann’s 2021 writing fellows, who sits down with two women who have started initiatives to improve the lives of a select few in hopes that it can spark a radical shift.

Tastemakers

We talk with Mayukh Sen about seven immigrant women who remade American cuisine and his new book, Taste Makers. Plus, racism in the worlds of food writing and publishing and who gets to break out.

Making Older Friends

Women over 50 are too often erased, including on this very podcast. Grace Bonney has been collecting inspiration and advice from women of more advanced experience in her new book, Collective Wisdom. She's gathered interviews and intergenerational conversations with over 100 trailblazing women, who describe the ups, downs, and lessons learned while forging their unique paths.

Grief Companionship

Grief can come in so many forms and impact us in unexpected ways. Illustrator and designer Ngaio Parr knows all too well, having lost four family members in four years. Retreating from family and friends? Strange physical symptoms? Suddenly seeing things everywhere that echo a lost loved one? All these normal forms of grieving can be confusing in a world that's all too ready to have you move on. To help, Ngaio has designed and illustrated The Grief Companion, a deck of cards with beautiful abstract watercolor images with prompts, insights and actions, for the moments when you can only do a little bit at a time. Plus, we discuss how to be there for friends who are grieving.

Bandsplain

Yasi Salek's podcast Bandsplain has us listening to music like teens again, with obsessive curiosity about whole albums and the quirks and life stories that draw us into the artists we come to love, or learn more about canonical artists we never understood.

The Silent but Deadly Fart of Racism

George McCalman is an artist, a writer, an illustrator, and a designer. This man does it ALL. He spent many years as a magazine creative director, shaping the look and feel of publications such as Mother Jones, Readymade, Afar. Then he opened up his own studio, McCalman Co, where he collaborates on branding, design, and editorial projects.

Change is Always Coming

How fixed are we in our ways of being and doing things? We're always confronting change, but how much can we choose it? These are some of the big ideas through small moments Jade Chang tackles in her Audible Original, You've Already Changed Your Life: A Recipe for a Revelation. Jade is a friend of the podcast, deep thinker, and author of the excellent novel, The Wangs vs. The World.

SCOTUS vs. Abortion (sponsored by Rewire News Group)

In a special episode brought to you by Rewire News Group, we go deep on the conservative push to regulate and ban abortion in Texas and Mississippi with Imani Gandy and Jessica Mason Pieklo of the Boom! Lawyered podcast.

Disability, Fragility, Vulnerability

Emily Ladau and Kelly Dawson return to dispel dull narratives around disability and go beyond the 101. How coping with fragility creates resilience. How friendships deepen with the knowing and trust that disabled people share. What allyship looks like to them as physically disabled women. The hypocrisies of non-disabled people's reactions to COVID, and, in its wake, how we can all look more closely at what it means to live a full life.

Believing Anita Hill

Dr. Anita Hill made history in 1991 when she testified to the Senate Judiciary committee about the sexual harassment perpetrated against her by Clarence Thomas. After the all-white, all-male committee led by then-Senator Joe Biden heard Dr. Hill's testimony, Clarence Thomas was confirmed to the US Supreme Court.

In the 30 years since, Anita Hill has spent her career as a law professor hearing from survivors of gender-based violence, ranging from harassment (which she expected) to assault. In her new book, Believing, she connects the dots between the systems that empower abuse and minimize vulnerable people, and the culture that keeps us as bystanders. From that history, she tackles the policy solutions we'll need to reform the system from the inside and the social courage we'll need to muster to transform it.

Where Should I Send My Kid to School?

A simple question with loaded answers.

On today's episode, we unravel a few of those knots with Courtney Martin and Dr. Dena Simmons, whose interracial friendship has weathered distance, accountability, academic rigor, heartbreak, and mutual support. They met over a decade ago when Courtney profiled Dena for her book about young activists, Do It Anyway. At the time, Dena was a classroom teacher. Since then she has earned her PhD and is writing her own book about breaking up with whiteness, the forthcoming White Rules for Black People.

Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation

Don't today's conspiracy theories make UFOs and JFK conspiracy theories seem quaint, almost sweet? Dr. Stacy Wood breaks down how independent communities of belief have accelerated online. It's not only the fault of social media, but as we reorganize how we search and find information, Facebook, YouTube, Google, and others are all part of how we have become so entrenched in our beliefs.

Finding Your Voice

Comedy and art criticism don't exactly sound like parallel career paths. But after bouncing from a freelance hustle to a fancy art world job to improv classes, Christina Catherine Martinez realized she wanted to do both. We talk about how she navigates making a life and a career as an intellectual and a comedian, how alike those performances are on social media, and how power and money infect everything.

Sex Work is Work

As OnlyFans flips and flops on the sex workers that built its platform, we revisit our interview with Lorelei Lee on the history of sex work legislation. Lorelei is a writer and performer who discusses how sex work is neither purely exploitative nor purely empowering. Instead, like all work, it's complicated.

Sustainable Style

Miranda Bennett has long been one of our favorite designers. We discuss how she got started making and selling clothes, how she balances running a sustainable business with keeping the lights on, and tips for shopping sustainably (even though we know there is no ethical consumption under capitalism).

Summer of Friendship: Forever35

Our summer of friendship continues with Kate Spencer and Doree Shafrir, hosts of the podcast Forever35. While we love their conversations about serums and budget-friendly makeup tips, we come and stay for their deep friendship, which started on the internet and was partly cemented at a CYG live show.

Bad Behavior

From Matt Damon to Andrew Cuomo to gender testing at the Olympics, we do a quick survey of men in the news behaving badly.

Boundaries

We talk about finding and maintaining boundaries, why the world makes it easier for some people than others, how boundaries help us be in community with others, and how grateful we are for boundary possibility models like Simone Biles and Naomi Osaka.

Summer of Friendship: Foxy Browns

More from our Summer of Friendship series, where a few of our favorite podcasters tell us how they met, times their friendship has been stretched, and how they grow together. This week, dear pals Camilla Blackett and Priyanka Mattoo of the Foxy Browns podcast.

Summer of Friendship: Two Old Bitches

As we continue our Summer of Friendship series, a few of our favorite podcasters tell us how they met, times their friendship has been stretched, and how they grow together. This week, Idelisse Malavé and Joanne Sandler aka Two Old Bitches!

Summer of Friendship: Claire and Erica

As part of our Summer of Friendship series, a few of our favorite podcasters tell us how they met, times their friendship has been stretched, and how their off-air an on-air friendship is different. This week, iconic bestie entrepreneurs Claire Mazur and Erica Cerulo of A Thing or Two.

Hot Vax Summer of Friendship

Aminatou and Ann's book Big Friendship is available in paperback July 6, so to celebrate we're doing our second Summer of Friendship series. We catch up and kick off chatting through our recent forays back into the world, which friends we're seeing, how we work through the emotional distance with close friends and acquaintances, and how we're approaching boundaries and travel while it seems possible.

Bi Bi Bi 2.0

Jordan and Gina round out Pride with a followup to our Bi Bi Bi episode from 2018. We hear from Divinity (@officiallydivinity) who identifies as bisexual, gray ace, and aromantic and how those labels coalesce for her. Divinity has amazing things to share about friendship. love, sex, connection, and becoming your brightest, fullest self. love you.

Lockdown Lesbian Love Story

Queer women aren't exclusively looking for longterm monogamous love - but some are! As part of our Pride series, a lockdown lesbian love story featuring musician Abby Diamond and actor and director Rachel Cora Wood.

Detransition, Baby

We talk with Torrey Peters about her breakout novel, Detransition, Baby, full of queer characters finding and defining family, and why she dedicated it to divorced cis women. Plus, a bunch of great reading recommendations for books by trans authors.

TRANSCRIPT: THE HIGHLANDER OF BLACK INTELLECTUALISM

[Ads]

(0:45)

Ann voiceover: Okay. So I know we've been plugging our tour constantly, callyourgirlfriend.com/tour to get all of the dates. Detroit, Houston, Denver, Toronto, Austin, we're coming for all these places. But we wanted to give people in those cities and also people who live elsewhere a little taste of what the CYG live experience is like not to mention we're sitting on a few really great interviews from last fall's tour that we have been saving, just like squirrelling away for a rainy day, to share with you. And one of those interviews is one of our favorite writers Ijeoma Oluo. There are a couple of dated references because this event happened right around Halloween so you'll hear us talk about spooky season but honestly Halloween is kind of evergreen, right? Yeah. And please enjoy a little taste of our live show from Seattle in October of last year. And don't forget to get tickets for this year's tour at callyourgirlfriend.com/tour.

Aminatou: This is Ann and Amina. We're calling from Guerneville. We met at a mutual friend's Gossip Girl viewing party in 2009 and it was love at first commercial. We laughed at all of each other's jokes and we really wanted to be friends but when we were leaving that night we walked in opposite directions. Honestly we became such close friends but it foreshadowed a life of us living kind of far apart from each other and having to persevere and be like the bestie, bestie, besties anyway. Yeah. And now we are still really good friends. We work together and we travel together. We . . .

Ann: We snack together.

Aminatou: We snack together and we can't wait to be friends for ten more years. At least.

Ann: Minimum. [Laughter]

Gina: So listen out for more voices of friendship throughout the show, and now will you all please help me welcome the hosts of Call Your Girlfriend, Ann Friedman and Aminatou Sow. [Cheering]

[Theme Song]

(3:15)

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

[Cheering]

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere and in Seattle, Washington.

[Cheering]

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On tonight's agenda, Ted Cruz: Disney Junkie, how we know Megyn Kelly only trick-or-treats with white people. [Laughter] We will also have a conversation with one of our favorite writers Ijeoma Oluo. [Cheering] Before we get started there's a little thing that we want to do. In the past year or so both of us have been to Australia. This is not like a "We travel so much. Follow us on Instagram."

Aminatou: We didn't go together.

Ann: Yeah, we didn't go together. It was kind of for work. And we learned that before a lot of public events such as this one there they will often do an acknowledgment of country or a statement of country is what they call it. And it's a way to pause and acknowledge the indigenous history of the land that that event is taking place on. And so we are adopting this practice for our tour. [Cheering]

Aminatou: So before we begin we wish to acknowledge the custodians of this land, the Duwamish people. [Cheering] The Duwamish tribe whose roots in Seattle stretch back for millennia are not officially recognized by the federal government. They've long sought support from the city of Seattle in their 40-year effort to gain recognition. Because they remain unrecognized they cannot receive the same benefits that recognized tribes do. Their presence is often obscured locally too.

The two totem poles that stand near the Pike Place Market over Highway 99 Viaduct which were installed in 1984 did not originate in the Puget Sound area. Rather they're from the Native people of the northwest coast, from Vancouver Island to the southern edges of Alaska. Councilmember Debora Juarez is leading the effort to have them removed. We acknowledge and respect the Duwamish people's continuing culture and the contribution they make to the life of this city and this region.

[Applause]

Let's survey this audience. How many people here are here with their bestie? [Cheering] Okay! Okay. How many people have known said bestie for at least five years? [Cheering] Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's, you know, that's respectable bestie territory. New beginnings. Ten? Ten years. Ten years. [Cheering] Okay, some college friends.

Ann: The decade club.

(6:10)

Aminatou: Fifteen years? [Cheering] Ooh, thinning out here. Okay. Twenty? Twenty? [Cheering] Twenty five? [Cheering] Thirty? Thirty? Nobody? [Laughter] Okay. Thirty-five? Are you sisters? [Laughter] No for real, are you sisters? No? That's amazing. [Laughter] Um, forty years? Thirty-five? Okay, we'll take it. That's amazing. Good for you. [Cheering] You know, no shade to the sisters, we love sister-friends, but it's just last night we had twins and they're like "We've known each other forever." We're like duh. [Laughter] We're like . . .

Ann: They're like "We shared a uterus, that's how we met."

Aminatou: "We were born in the same stomach. It's cool." You know? [Laughter]

Ann: Did you all see this article in The Atlantic about Ted Cruz's wedding? I did not see it.

Aminatou: Any Heidi Cruz fans in the audience? [Laughter]

Ann: The Google alert for Heidi Cruz was pinging.

Aminatou: The Cruz who should actually run for office. I'm like I don't like you but you seem more competent so . . . [Laughter]

Ann: Relative competence is not a qualification for office in 2018.

Aminatou: Yeah, all the evil men's wives should run for office. I was like complicate my understanding of this please.

Ann: Oh my god. [Laughter] Anyway I found this article because my good friend Aminatou sent it to me with like a million exclamation points and I'm just going to read a little part of it. "At the wedding Ted insisted they play, quote, A Whole New World -- the popular Disney song -- at the end of the ceremony. Heidi didn't understand. 'They had a band,' she told him, 'a violinist no less.'" She's classy. Yeah, yeah, you know, she really . . . "Why on earth would they play a CD? Quote, 'Because no one can do Aladdin' he said." [Laughter]

(8:15)

Aminatou: This is giving me chills that I agree with Ted Cruz. [Laughter] Just like, you know . . .

Ann: Are you the Zodiac Killer?

Aminatou: No, that's his father. [Laughs] 

Ann: Okay. "She relented and it became a theme of sorts, or that's how she remembers it anyway, on a magic carpet ride." And we're still talking about this even though that article was a while ago because . . . 

Aminatou: Because it's nutty! [Laughs]

Ann: I mean it's nutty. It's very funny and nutty. I don't want to Disney shame Ted Cruz because I do think that people should be able to like whatever animated features they love.

Aminatou: Disney Americans are people too Ann. [Laughter]

Ann: Walt Disney's America. But then I saw yesterday our horrible Cheeto president who has historically had a somewhat contentious relationship with Ted Cruz decided that he likes him now. He said, quote, "He's not lying Ted anymore. He's beautiful Ted." [Laughter] I call him Texas Ted, but beautiful Ted . . . something about beautiful Ted and A Whole New World really was inspiring to us. And we thought maybe Ted would appreciate a Disneyfied version of his newfound love from Trump. So we took it upon ourselves. [Laughter]

Aminatou: Ann makes all of the graphics in this family.

Ann voice over: Okay, so I have to interrupt for one second to explain. If you were sitting in the live audience at this point in the show you would see on the big screen behind us these Photoshop composites that I made of Trump and Cruz together in scenes from classic Disney movies. So the first is Ariel and Flounder, so like Trump is Ariel and like Flounder's face has Ted Cruz on it from The Little Mermaid. Then it's Beauty and the Beast so it looks like they're dancing together, like spinning in a ball room. And finally as Beautiful Ted would really appreciate as Aladdin and Jasmine riding a magic carpet together. I'm sorry that this is an audio project that you cannot experience my janky Photoshop skills firsthand but you can imagine. Imagine as you listen to the dulcet tones of Gina's voice.

(10:30)

Aminatou: Please welcome the singer in the family. [Laughter]

Ann: The only singer in the family.

Gina: Look at this Cruz, isn't he neat? Wouldn't you think my collection's complete? Wouldn't you think I'm the ghoul, the ghoul who has everyone? [Laughter]

Ann: Ugh. I don't know whether to say it gets worse or it gets better. It continues. [Laughter] 

Gina: Tale as old as time, Cruz as it can be. Barely even friends then somebody bends, full complicity. [Laughter]

Ann: All right. This one's for you Heidi.

Gina: A whole new world, that's where we'll be. A thrilling chase, a wonderous place for Cruz and me. [Cheering]

Ann: Ugh. The beautiful, the talented Gina Delvac. Ugh. 

Aminatou: Which is your favorite of these Disney movies? I don't really know the answer to this.

Ann: Oh, my top fav? I don't know. I have to say that truly on the basis of Ursula alone I have to say The Little Mermaid.

Aminatou: Fair. Fair, fair, fair.

Ann: I could watch Poor Unfortunate Souls, just that, at like feature-length repeated. [Laughter]

Aminatou: Yeah.

Ann: The part where she makes lipstick out of the little sea anemone, I love it. I just love it. What about you?

(12:33)

Aminatou: That's perfect. You know, I used to have a huge crush on Gaston.

Ann: Oh, shocker, ever beef-o-sexual.

Aminatou: Yeah, early. I'm like hmm, why are my parents letting me watch this? [Laughter] But I have to say, you know, I'm an Aladdin girl.

Ann: Oh, you and Ted.

Aminatou: Me and Ted. I just -- you know, classic I always wanted the Jasmine long hair, like blue's my color too, you know? They don't make these cartoons like they used to.

Ann: Wow, okay.

Aminatou: Sexist as ever. [Laughter]

Ann: I'm like we have to click to the next side before you go too far.

Aminatou: I know, right?

Ann: Into elder millennial scary territory, yeah.

Aminatou: I don't know how to tell you this, I'm like perfectly-cooked millennial.

Ann: You're an old millennial. I'm the oldest millennial. You're an old-ish millennial.

Aminatou: Really? 1985? Ugh.

Ann: Yes, I'm sorry to tell you.

Aminatou: It's cool. Some good vintage right? That's what I'm saying. [Laughter] It's a good year. Okay, I want to talk about another thing that makes me furious but I feel like I'm getting more excited about it. So Megyn Kelly who like spells her name with a Y, the racist way.

Ann: Don't trust her.

Aminatou: Straight. [Laughter] There's like variations where you're like hmm, this is -- you know, you know the name's going to be a problem and they're going to have to tell you they need to talk to a manager. So Megyn who for a long time worked at Fox News and, you know, now works at NBC, she has a show that nobody watches at 9 a.m. except for me when I want to get angry.

(14:10)

Ann: It's like your wakeup call? Yeah.

Aminatou: Oh yeah, gets paid like 70 million dollars a year to do nonsense. But here's -- so she had a couple people on a panel and she talked about how when she was young it was totally okay to wear blackface.

Ann: She's not 100 years old, P.S. Spoiler.

Aminatou: Right. Megyn Kelly was born in 1970 in Champagne, Illinois. I was like ma'am, you were around in 1029? It's not okay. But she made it seem like very chill. She's like because you truly -- you get in trouble if you're a white person who puts on black face on Halloween or a black person who puts on white face for Halloween. There's no such thing as white face. [Laughter] Also I usually do not like to speak for all black people but I think I can speak for all black people when I say that we do not have the time or the desire.

So, you know, Megyn Kelly says "Back when I was a kid that was okay as long as you were dressing up like a character." We already said that this is a fucking lie. Like even in 19-mar-mar-mar, whenever she was around, it was not cool to get shoe polish and put it on your face. You know, she tried to defend the whole thing by talking about when Countess Luann dresses Dianna Ross. You remember this, right? And what did the countess have to do? Swiftly apologize. It was like the first real apology in housewife history because they're famous for the non-apology apology and this one was like ooh, I'm messing with my own money. Better apologize.

(15:48)

So, you know, there's been like much disgust. Megyn Kelly, she had to apologize to all of her colleagues because the NBC blacks all banded together. When Al Roker and Lester Holt, they hold their fire. [Laughter] But when they come for you you are going home. And so she had to apologize to her colleagues, and in the apology she teared up. I was like are you doing white tears during the black face apology? [Laughter] Can't do that, ma'am. Hmm, this does not fly.

Ann: Crying Megyn Kelly would be a good Halloween costume if you're a white person looking for a Halloween costume.

Aminatou: How do you make your face white? Do I need to explore that?

Ann: Well you know what? I think for an average white woman maybe, like a blunt, blonde wig and just buy one shade lighter foundation and cry. Just cry a lot.

Aminatou: On it. So the thing that actually surprised me about this, because yesterday was full-on rage. Today I'm like rage but there's lulls. And so she -- like Megyn Kelly's been dropped by CAA, by her agency. Consequences. She's like they're taking away her 9 a.m. slot that she's really bad at so hopefully they'll put her at forever p.m. where nobody has to listen to her nonsense. [Laughter] But, you know, this is the same woman that on Fox News gets violently upset when people say that Santa is not white. And so the irony is not lost on me here.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: But yeah, so good riddance to this ghoul.

Ann: Yeah. Goodbye forever. [Applause] Ugh. I feel like by the time -- if we talk about that again maybe she'll be gone-gone.

Aminatou: Maybe.

Ann: It just keeps progressing in a positive direction shockingly.

Aminatou: I know. Like consequences, it's really weird.

Ann: It's so weird! We're used to no consequences for shitty behavior. Okay. Let's listen to a voicemail. Shall we?

Aminatou: Let's.

(18:05)

Emily: Hi Call Your Girlfriend team. This is Emily from Seattle. Me and my bestie Tina actually met in line on our way into our freshman dorm at Christian college. Our moms actually got to talking and are both very extroverted and me and my bestie are very introverted. And so while they were talking and gabbing and trying to force us to be friends we kind of were rolling our eyes at them simultaneously and each other. Then we found out that we were actually next door neighbors in our dorm room and from there we just kind of defaulted to being together and it's now been over ten years of knowing each other.

Aminatou: So cute.

Ann: Introverty bestie meet-cute. I love it. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and when we come back our interview on stage with Ijeoma Oluo and even more reasons to come see us in Denver . . .

Aminatou: Toronto, Detroit, Austin, and Houston, Texas baby.

[Ads]

(21:40)

Ann: And we're back with Ijeoma in Seattle.

[Cheering]

Aminatou: Ijeoma is a Seattle-based writer, speaker, and Internet yeller. She is the author of the New York Times bestseller So You Want to Talk About Race? Published this year by Seal Press. [Cheering] Her work focuses on issues of race and identity, feminism, mental health, social justice, and the arts. Please welcome Ijeoma to the stage. 

[Cheering]

(22:18)

Ann: Sorry we don't have a side table for you. You might just have to . . .

Ijeoma: I know, and I don't have a real chair either. What's going on?

Ann: Listen.

Aminatou: Listen.

Ann: Do you want to switch?

Ijeoma: Y'all knew I was coming right? Just kidding.

Aminatou: We did. We did.

Ijeoma: I'm just kidding, this is lovely.

Ann: Our elaborate writer.

Ijeoma: This is not a stool. I'm on a campaign against stools on stages.

Aminatou: Cheers.

Ijeoma: Everyone, I'm like you saw the size of my ass and you brought a stool out? Why?

Ann: We'll make now a pledge to you if we ever do another show with you no stools. They'll never . . .

Ijeoma: Yeah. And spread the word to other people that you know, all your show friends.

Aminatou: We'll tell the show people.

Ann: Your show friends. [Laughter] Your Hollywood friends, yeah.

Aminatou: I love that you think we get out of the house besides this.

Ann: Ugh, okay. Well you already heard us rant about Megyn Kelly but we figured we would ask you if you had any feelings about how it's possible that Megyn Kelly is still out here talking like this about black face.

Ijeoma: I mean I would just . . . it has got to be so amazing to be a white woman. Like to be able to be like -- to mess up everything, to get everything wrong all the time. All the time. And have that -- and still just continuously coast by. To get like a weird racist offender of the patriarchy wrong and then to get being a pseudo-faux liberal wrong and you're like . . . and they're like oh, the big consequence is maybe you'll be moved to a different time slot in your multi-million dollar career? I want that. [Laughter]

Ann: Also magical tears.

Ijeoma: I mean I get so many things wrong and I don't make any money from that.

(24:00)

Aminatou: I know. I am definitely trying to fail into 70 million dollars a year. Fingers crossed tonight is the start of that.

Ijeoma: I mean it's really my retirement plan. It's just I'm hoping to screw enough things up to end up a millionaire.

Aminatou: You know what? The next time the Mega Millions is 1.6 billion it's you and me.

Ijeoma: I mean I'm already ahead because I'm not playing. [Laughter]

Aminatou: You know, one line that really stood out to me in your book is when you said that as a black woman I'd love to not talk about race ever again. I do not enjoy it. It is not fun. One, amen. [Laughter] And I think it's pretty common when people always say "Oh, black people love to complain." Or like, you know, "That lady's just playing the race card." So I'm thinking about all of this and I'm like what motivates you to get out of bed and keep talking and writing about race even though people don't deserve it and it's not fun to do?

Ann: It's true. We don't deserve you.

Ijeoma: Well I would say I definitely don't do it for white people. I do it mostly for myself because you still have to live that reality, and you either live that reality where you can say something or you live it where you can't. And I am fortunate enough to be in a position where saying something isn't costing me this job because it's literally my job and so I have to say something for all those who can't, who it will cost them their job or their safety or, you know, so many other opportunities in life.

But also I like to put things out there with the hope that maybe a person of color who is also sick of having this conversation can be like "Hey, why don't you read that thing and leave me alone?" [Laughter] And I love seeing that, and it's honestly what keeps me going. I hear from a lot of people who say "I keep your book on my cubicle and then -- because I'm the only black person in my office. And when a white person comes up and asks me a question about race I don't say anything. I just open up a chapter and I say read that." [Laughter]

(26:00)

Aminatou: I'm just going to start holding it like a crucifix. [Laughter] When they come to me.

Ijeoma: I've learned too -- people have said that if you want your own seat on the subway or the bus . . .

Aminatou: Oh yeah.

Ijeoma: That if you hold that book up while you're reading it it's either going to work perfectly or it will be the worst decision you ever made depending on who gets on the bus. [Laughter]

Ann: I'm curious about how you for yourself as a human being out in the world, I'm not talking about the practice of writing this book or maybe even being explicitly on book tour for it or having conversations like this where you know we're going to talk about the book, but most just like living your life on the Internet and then also as a human out in the world where you draw the boundaries about when you delve into conversation and when you're like oh, actually I'm off the clock right now. I'm not going to get into this even though that's kind of what I've built a part of my career on.

Ijeoma: Yeah. I mean I would say I'm less generous now than I ever was and it's not to say anyone was ever caught calling me generous before. [Laughter]

Aminatou: There's that generous race lady.

Ijeoma: Yeah, whew. I would say that, you know, one thing I've realized and something I tell a lot of young people especially because there's so much pressure for people of color to be the people who carry -- you know, we're the foot servants of wokeness. We're supposed to carry these emerging white grown babies through their racial journeys. And we can't do that. There's too many white people here. [Laughter] Especially in Seattle.

(27:45)

So I've learned that, you know, part of what I think often gets lost even in talking about anti-racism is the actual value of the people of color who are dealing with the system. And that also means the value of our time and our energies in this battle. We can't lose that in the battle. Part of the battle to end racism can't be also that black women are going to kill themselves trying to lift this burden just because a white woman doesn't want to Google something. [Cheering] And we have to . . .

Ann: We believe in Google here.

Aminatou: Google is your friend.

Ijeoma: Yeah, and we have to build that in. So I look at -- every time I look at whether I'm going to engage a conversation . . . sometimes I just want to. But if I want to, I mean I'm sorry, that's not a good thing because usually I just want to like fuck with someone and I'm in a really bad mood and that means there's going to be no like . . . you're going to hear a truth but you might not hear it the way you want to hear it. But for the most part when I am going to have these hard conversations I do it out of love, either love for the people who are being impacted by this or love for the person I'm talking to because it's never fun. It's never easy. I've never had one conversation that changed everything. It's a long, long process and five minutes after you have it there will be another white person standing in line who thinks they've got the most brilliant discussion starter ever and it's literally the exact same thing that someone just said to you.

And so I would say I would love if -- I would love if white people actually looked at this as their burden and looked at the way in which people of color engaged with them in these conversations as an extreme generosity because we don't get to choose so many times and these conversations never really work in our favor. And the truth is we have very little power to change that system. And so I would love it if white people woke up and actually felt the burden that we felt instead and felt like oh, if I want this to change I have to do something.

[Applause]

Aminatou: That sounds like a horror movie. [Laughter] Like everybody wakes up and the white people are doing the race work. Opposite day, can't handle it.

Ann: The Today Show, 9 a.m. hour.

(29:55)

Aminatou: Yeah, right? You know, one of the things I love that you write about is how not to use one bigotry to combat another. And so you write a lot about fatphobia and classism. You know, especially as people use that kind of rhetoric a lot of times to combat something racist in some cases. And we also see people like body-shaming a lot to attack people and your work has really helped me think through a lot of that. And so I was wondering why -- if you could talk about why it's so hard, especially for progressive people sometimes, not to regress into using these really harmful tactics.

Ann: Yeah. I would say part of it is that we spend our whole lives absorbing these messages. And so we have -- you know, race is one of the most obvious defining factors in our society for how well people do but there are so many other oppressions out there and we are just as inundated. But I think also a lot of what happens to people when they see someone doing something important, saying something racist, doing something racist, you can feel very powerless in the system. And so people think what can I do to make them feel that sort of pain, that sort of harm? And all they can grasp is this huge library of ways to be fatphobic or ableist or misogynistic, you know? All these other things. That's what jumps to mind. Because the truth is that there are a few other things that make you feel disempowered and unsafe and scared and people think "I'm going to give them a taste of their own medicine." But what they're really doing is just perpetrating more oppression and, you know, more hatred. And it takes a while for people to stop and realize you're saying something about how you value the people you are tossing in as bombs. You're throwing people's humanity at someone as a weapon. And you may think that you love black people but if you decide to then make your comments about class or about disability you are saying that I think that you are collateral damage and you are worth less because I can toss your humanity at this person. I'm worth more. The person being harmed is worth more and I will go ahead and use you and use your pain as a weapon against someone else.

(32:20)

And so I think that we have to look at what that says about the value systems that we've absorbed and how we're valuing the people harmed by that. Because so often I hear people say "Well it doesn't matter. If it works, it works." But it doesn't work. If you're making fun of Trump and you're using body-shaming things that are often used against fat people, used against trans people, and you're saying if it works, it works, it works for who? It works for all the other people who are called these things? It works for all the other people who are harmed by this. And you're saying basically you're worth less and you're collateral damage and we cannot have any progressive movements that define entire groups of people as collateral damage. That's not what progressive movements should be and it's certainly not what anti-oppression is.

Ann: Yeah. [Applause] So a few weeks ago -- god, maybe it's months ago at this point, I lose track of time -- we had Rachel Cargle and Robin DiAngelo on the podcast talking about white fragility and white guilt being one of the kind of manifestations of that. And they talk a lot about how unproductive an emotion guilt is when expressed by white people. And I'm curious about -- I'm sure, you know, even in just the span of your book tour, right, encountering almost like a repeating script that I would have to guess in particular white people who come to your book event might be exhibiting and I'm curious about what you see as a more productive frame than guilt in terms of processing structural white supremacy.

(34:10)

Ijeoma: I mean I have no problem with guilt as long as they keep it away from me. [Laughter] It's so funny for me when a white person walks up to me and is like "Oh, I hate white people. We're the worst." I'm like then why are you subjecting me to you right now? [Laughter] I mean I get it. I already get this so you can spare me all of this whiteness right here.

I think that whatever motivates people to action is useful. You know, and that's literally the limit of what guilt can do. I care not for how individual white people who have been participants in systems of white supremacy feel personally. Like it doesn't make me feel better to know that they've cried about it. It doesn't make me feel worse to know that they've cried about it. I would like to know what they're doing about it. And I will know by the impact they have, by the way, so I also don't need any more emails with lists of the things you're doing.

Ann: Oh my god.

Aminatou: People send you that?

Ijeoma: Oh my goodness, do they ever.

Ann: I'm feeling white embarrassment.

Ijeoma: I get whole lists of everything everyone's doing. Like literally "I thought of yelling at a black person but I remembered your book and I didn't do that." I will literally get this and I'm like okay?

Aminatou: Thanks?

Ijeoma: You know, I feel like what I need is action and action will show. And I need action -- if you want to get your kudos and good job you'll get that kudos and good job when the world reflects your actions. So you just keep doing it and you can be frustrated along with the rest of us that the world isn't reflecting it, yet you just keep working at it. And so, you know, I am not anti-guilt and I feel like there's also this really weird where we keep refocusing whiteness by saying "Oh, don't feel guilty. Don't feel . . ." You know, feel whatever gets you to vote differently, to get out on the streets, to start making better financial decisions. [Applause] Whatever it takes you do that.

(36:15)

I don't think that we need to worry honestly about how white people are doing in this whole anti-racism thing. [Laughter] Like you know what? If you're not okay you'd better learn to be okay because we're still at the very beginning stages. It really gets a lot worse than being called out on Twitter. It gets a lot worse. So if your guilt about how comfortable your life has been at the expense of people of color is what you imagine is the worst thing, buckle up because we literally haven't done anything to actually challenge the systems, these inherently violent systems of power. And if you actually want to tear it down feel that guilt and have it motivate you to do something and just think how much use am I right now? Think of that and think of that before you start talking to a person of color about how you're feeling. Think how useful? How useful is this conversation right now?

And before you sit at home and share your posts about how sad you are that you're a white person think how useful is this right now? Because what I really need right now is for white people to try to be of use to people of color.

[Applause]

Aminatou: Man, this is really blowing my mind. Like a guilt thing. I want to start telling my white friends discuss amongst yourselves, like stop. [Laughter] I have no advice. You know I've been thinking a lot about the debate about who gets to call themselves a black public intellectual. And whenever that debate comes up it always centers men, like people will bring up Cornel West. People will bring up Ta-Nehisi Coates and many other men. And that -- you know, it's like good for those men, they think that so many black women are writing amazing things right now and I consider you to be a black public intellectual. So I was wondering if you could tell us who you think -- like which other black women or maybe women of color your work is in conversation with right now.

(38:30)

Ijeoma: Oh man, first of all, oh my god, I'm horrible with names and the moment someone says name a person Disney songs start going through my head. [Laughter]

Aminatou: Heidi Cruz. Megyn Kelly. I got you.

Ijeoma: You know I would say that . . . I would say right now what's interesting is I feel like black women, because we are getting -- we get very little . . . there's very little spotlight on what we're doing, I think that we're all tackling so much right? Because our thought on race also has . . . gender often has sexuality, often has class. So many issues where black women find themselves at the forefront of these things.

And so, you know, I would say the people I end up talking to a lot, I end up talking to Feminista Jones. I end up talking to Sam Irby who while for many people her memoirs may not seem like they're at the forefront of issues of race, talking about really what it's about to be a poor, fat, queer black person with health issues in an absolutely brilliant way I think is absolutely revolutionary. You know, and so I find that -- I find, you know, I have a lot of these different conversations and we're all kind of checking in with each other and we're all contributing something slightly different to the conversations and I think we have a little bit of freedom, that freedom of erasure at times, where people aren't simply pitting us against each other. I mean, you know . . .

Aminatou: Let's . . . [Laughs]

(40:05)

Ijeoma: We're going to let a little of that slide. But, you know, that we get to try out different aspects of who we are and how we feel in the world. I think that it's hilarious -- you know, and Michelle Alexander of course, I used a lot of her work in my book. And, you know, bell hooks, I mean there's so many people that I read through and I agree with parts of, disagree with parts of, and I feel like because we have had these little spaces to kind of explore and there is less at risk sometimes ego comes into it but a lot less. It's always kind of embarrassing to watch these dudes try to fight it out like we have the highlander of black intellectualism. [Laughter]

Aminatou: There can only be one.

Ijeoma: Yeah. Especially when there's so many shitty white dudes out there. Like shitty white dudes.

Ann: There are so many, yeah.

Ijeoma: On sold-out book tours. Look at Jordan Peterson, that dude can barely string together a sentence.

Aminatou: His literal advice is clean your room.

Ijeoma: He cannot string together a sentence. And no one's going "Oh, Jordan Peterson exists. Can this other white dude exist at the same time?" [Laughter] We seem to have a limitless capacity for mediocre white dudes and yet we seem to be pitting every brilliant black man against each other and then every black woman is kind of -- the only freedom we have is the fact that no one knows we exist. And it's always kind of embarrassing when we play into that and when we get caught up in that. And when I see people who I respect and admire get caught up in that and really do believe that they have to shout someone down or that they have to be caught publicly trying to insult another black person it's not okay to me and it's sad. But at the same time I know who to blame and honestly it's not going to be Coates or West even though I would love to sit West down and have a conversation about some decisions he's been making. [Laughter]

(42:05)

At the same time I know who to blame. It's not him right? And it's everyone who's picking out articles and going "Do you believe -- who do you agree with?" What do you mean? Why can't you take up the parts that you agree with? Why can't you look at people who have very different roles in diagnosing any working towards solutions in this incredibly vast problem that is white supremacy in America? And instead of saying all the awards -- this is the problem we should be pouring billions of dollars into in all honesty, and part of it is scarcity of resource right? Anything else that killed as many people as white supremacy kills would we be putting all of our money into.

But we don't even have . . . you know, we're shutting down ethnic studies departments left and right, right? We are -- and then we're making the few authors and writers compete for whatever tiny bit of stage time and audience they can get. And then black women are expected to still continue to do the work for, you know -- I'm fortunate enough I can pay my bills doing what I do but there are better thinkers than me who are no longer writing because they couldn't. And I think that there's something very wrong with that and I would love to see people look -- you know, with their money as long as we live in a capitalist system look for who isn't being heard and instead of being dismayed and looking at these debates and thinking which side are you going to be on, are you going to be on West, are you going to be on Coates, instead say where can I put my money into people who are still working while all this bickering is going on and put it there. And put as much of it there as you can.

[Applause]

Ann: Yeah. So we've been playing these voicemails about how people met their best friend or one of them. I'm just wondering -- you can say no if nothing leaps to mind but I'm wondering if you have a story about how you met someone who's been really . . . whose friendship has been really important and meaningful in your life.

(44:10)

Ijeoma: Well I mean I didn't go to Christian school. [Laughter]

Ann: How did you make any friends?

Aminatou: How did you meet anybody?

Ijeoma: Yeah, I have no friends. [Laughter] I would say I have a close friend, Lindsey, who lives in San Francisco. And we met because we were going to go to a protest together and we had just met at a party, like she used to work at the company I was working at at the time but we hadn't worked there at the same time. But she had some friends who worked there before me. We met at a party, hadn't really talked at all, but then I guess she had seen from Facebook that I might be someone who would want to go to an Occupy protest.

Aminatou: Strong brand. [Laughter]

Ijeoma: Yeah, yeah. Right? You can see there the makings of a writer on important issues. So she was like "Do you want to go?" And I'm like yeah. She's like "Wait, are you serious?" I'm like yeah, sure. So after work we went to find it but -- and I'm in my work clothes trying to find this Occupy protest, completely overdressed, my feet hurt, and we couldn't find it. [Laughter] We walked around for like two hours. We couldn't find the protest. So she's like "Do you want to go get a beer?" I'm like sure. [Laughter] And we've been friends ever since.

Ann: I love that.

Aminatou: I love that. [Applause] That's incredible. Okay, I'm going to ask you the hardest question that we ask CYG live. Many gladiators have come and failed this test.

Ann: The mighty have fallen.

Aminatou: You know, the mighty have fallen. So you've got a lot to live up to here.

Ijeoma: Or nothing to live up to honestly. If everyone's failed it I'm safe.

Aminatou: Are you ready?

Ijeoma: Can I have more wine?

Aminatou: You want more wine? Let's give you some more wine. [Laughter] Let's kill this bottle.

Ijeoma: Thank you.

Aminatou: Yeah, this wine is good.

Ijeoma: Yeah, I mean someone definitely went to Safeway.

Aminatou: Definitely. [Laughter] Listen. Love our grocery store wine. What are your go-to snacks? [Cheering] You can take a minute.

Ijeoma: All right.

Aminatou: People want to be inspired.

Ijeoma: So right now I'm really into almonds but in a really annoying way where I get a craving for specific almonds and then I can't find it. So like my son came home, my 17-year-old, and was like "Mom, I'm hungry." And I was like "Oh, would you like some dry-roasted almonds?" And then I accidentally handed him the bag of plain, non-salted almonds and he was like "Gross, these taste like paper." And then I was like "Oh, wait, sorry, those aren't the salted ones." So I grab another -- these are like three pound bags too. So I grab a three pound bag of the chocolate ones and he's like "Why are these brown?" And I was like "Oh, those are the chocolate almonds. No, here's the dry . . ." He's like "Mom, why do you have 15 pounds of almonds?" [Laughter]

Ann: You're like an almond prepper.

Ijeoma: Right by your bed. And even worse I'm sitting on my bed typing. He's like "Why is your bed covered in almonds?" [Laughter] So I'm really into almonds. If no one's home I'm really into cheese because I'm lactose-intolerant so I just have to make sure that no one's around. [Cheering] So those are my primary snacks right now, almonds and cheese. I'm basically -- I'm either always pooping or never pooping depending on the day. [Laughter]

(48:10)

Aminatou: A queen. Thank you.

Ann: Ten out of ten. Great answer.

Aminatou: Where can people find your work?

Ijeoma: Oh, well, you can buy my book anywhere that cool books are sold. And usually if you follow me on Twitter and you can hang with all of the selfies and me complaining about random things that my children do you'll also . . .

Aminatou: But your makeup is so good.

Ijeoma: Isn't it though?

Aminatou: So good. The makeup selfies are my fav.

Ijeoma: I love them. And occasionally people try to get snippy about it but what's funny is actually I had a speaking engagement in New York last year and we're talking about race and feminism and then I get down and a woman walks up to me and she goes "I was following you for the makeup." [Laughter] She said "I didn't know you were a writer." [Laughter]

Aminatou: That's the best.

Ijeoma: Isn't it though? I was like thank you I guess. But if you follow me on social media I share everything I write there. Right now I am still touring for the book and making a movie and working on my next book so I'm not writing as frequently but if you want to know what I'm thinking at any point in time I tweet from anywhere: from the bathroom which we've established I spend a lot of time there. [Laughter] So if you ever want to keep up with my day find me on social media.

Aminatou: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us Ijeoma.

Ijeoma: Thank you.

(49:52)

Ann: So see you on the Internet and if you're lucky enough to be in one of the five cities we're headed to this fall IRL soon.

Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf where Sophie Carter-Kahn does all of our social. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.
interviews, CYG liveCall Your GirlfriendTed Cruz, disney, ijeoma oluo, black intellectuals, megyn kelly, racism, race